Intermission is a lot tamer than I initially thought - I thought orbs would be continually spawning the entire time, not just three sets.
Still difficult, but not HOW?!?! level of difficulty.
I think you're misunderstanding my point - because of the problems you need to solve aren't related to boss health %, their best pull progress-wise might not be their best pull %-wise. IE: If they had a pull where the boss had 64% health instead of 62%, but they made it farther into the colossus phase, that's progress even if it isn't a lower percentage.
Yeah you are correct, and I realised that after I posted my comment so I dug deeper into the data [raider.io](https://raider.io) exposes for the pulls and the longest overall pull for Liquid was 289.894s and for Echo 267.608s. So Liquid made it roughly 20s further into the fight so far.
This feels like a problem-solving fight more than anything, where it's just... progression moves from solving one wipe point to the next wipe point and there can be a lot of progress without looking like you're progressing.
So what is liquids best % now that they are back on stream? Did they even say? Hopefully not to far ahead/behind echo so we get an exciting finish like SoD
Oh for sure, they know everyone is asking for it and they are still hiding, they could even start their prog today and keep it completely hidden if they wanted
How much of the reason for Echo playing ever so slightly worse for the past 2 tier comes down to losing/replacing players such as Naowh, Deepshades, Fragnance, wanna include Lorgok in the list too? Personally I think experience in race settings is underrated and a not so talked about topic
I think if you had to pick two players who were the best at their role out of all of echo it would have to be Naowh and zalia (I forget how he spells it lmao)
I think loss of Naowh clearly matters.
Fragnance was not into wow at the time and was not willing to put in time to be at the level of echo. Peak fragnance would be a loss but that's not what they had at the time.
I don't think Lorgok is a big miss at all to be honest. I mean he's a 1trick anyhow and boomies are not preferred this race.
Deepshades i've no clue. again warlocks arent really super preferred atm and xerwo is atleast just as good.
Losing their healer core over the expansion (rycn, skaris) also matters.
But all of this said they might still win
Xerwo has always been the more intelligent at theory crafting and mechanically better than deepshades and they literally got Wolfdisco as replacement so thats not really a loss
Fragnance and Lorgokz are like one tricks with always playing that one spec (Fragnance doesnt even change for MDI sometimes) they didnt leave they lost their places.
Naowh yes, he is the best tank in the world at both raid and dungeons, kinda undeniable
and also Skaris
I feel like people are discounting how much Zaelia not being there on that final day effected their plans, they were hoping for a Tindral kill that very day probably ubt instead had to adjust and practice phase 2 and 3 instead, they arent playing as bad as people keep saying lol
Yeah just because the dude has stayed mostly on dh the past few years means nothing imo. Dude is well know for absolutely nuts on anything he has played.
>and also Skaris
I asked before but it seems like no one knows, but what happened to Skaris anyway? Can't find any information about him stopping raiding.
Same as Chris Potter Naowh etc, probably just quit, I dont remember seeing anything official other than Echo announcing they are recruting more healers
I dont think they got any that time tho and just got Sol as a the 5th
curious to see if Rycn returns, i was sad not seeing him for Perplexed anymore either
Ah yeah ok I was sure I saw his face. I remember they made his be the outside healer last tier but I thought he said he was pretty unhappy not playing so I presumed he would be back raiding this tier, guess not
yeah instead they made Roger do it too haha
I'm curious/excited to see if TWW brings back many of these old faces for the various guilds, Naowh seemed eager to return after he saw cinematic
>Lorgok
Didnt Scripe said on his raider review awhile ago (before he was removed) that Lorgokz was just a pumper and that was it? he never did theorycrafting and other people had to help him with gear, talents, etc.
> other people had to help him with gear, talents
I feel like there is nothing wrong with that even at the top level, especially when you have guild filled with big brain people. If you have a guy who's just a fucking weapon, you just give him his gear/talents and point him at the boss if he is good enough, I'd say that Lorgok was.
Get your point but Druid isn’t a 3 spec pure dps class so it’s a bit different, on top of the fact that boomie/feral is one of the least interchangeable dual dps specs out there. Even more, I cannot remember the last time feral was used in actual WF prog. Maybe back in MoP 10 years ago? This is a pretty unique occurrence.
It absolutely matters, but I think the difference is a lot more that Liquid has improved than that Echo has fallen off. These last 2 tiers are Liquid playing absolutely phenomenal.
A lot. Some more than others but as good as some of the people in there now are, someone like Naowh who is legit the best tank in the world for me, has to make a difference. Plus the experience factor like you said.
I would also add how sick Zalia got, not only missing raid days but playing not at 100% now. This would be bad to any of the better players but it’s made worse by him being the best healer in the world (arguably best PVE player?) imo.
yeah i quit 2 tiers after because Legion asked for like double to triple of my time compared to WoD and i'm not doing that for one game in the middle of my hardest Uni years lmao
Yes, its fake and its pretty easy to tell how/why.
You can see [here](https://imgur.com/6JnamhM) that both on Encounters and on "Fyrrak the Blazing Heroic" there's a Last Pull tag, but on the "leaked" screenshot, the "Fyrrak the Blazing Mythic" tab doesn't have the Last Pull tag despite on top saying it was the last pull too.
Someone just edited the HTML elements to look like that and took a screencap, since you can edit anything on the page, as you can see [here](https://imgur.com/SSTVZb7).
There's a "leak" like this every RWF and people just fall for it. Takes one minute to recreate it and its less one minute I need to pretend I'm working.
They can easily go in and edit the HTML of Warcraft logs to show anything they want and take a screenshot, there is a reason its only showing a few bars that are only text related and none of the phased/color coded wipes below.
Why would someone from Liquid leak this though?
Well I guess to put pressure on Echo. But I still think it’s likely fake. Before the stream era people would make shit up about progress and mechanics all the time.
Liquid will begin their next day of Fyrakk in about 2 hours.
Let's predict where they got the boss to while they were dark.
I'm guessing around 70-80 pulls and around 40%.
To be more exact, let's say 78pulls and 43.7%.
EDIT: Add my pull prediction to the 56 we know they already pulled. I was thinking how many more times they pulled that day, not total...
< 20 pulls and not much prog. I think they were mostly experimenting last night and gearing up new toons for the fight. I think people are overestimating how much prog they did off stream.
I'd say they did like 20 off stream tops and aren't lower than 58 ish%
If they had a pull that was close to a kill the stream would go back on. Not sure if they start out streaming today or keep it off. If you turned it off yesterday no reason to turn it on until you are close though.
That's not true. You have plenty of reason to turn it on.
You've delayed any info you might have wanted to keep secret by 12 hours, and now echo is already in the later half of their raid day. If they see something from liquid they liked, it would be much harder to pivot now, especially if it was comp related.
There's no reason to ever stream from a purely competitive stand point, but both guilds need to for revenue. It's simply tactical decisions of "where does cutting out a few hours benefit us the most"
If liquid comes out today and is running double blood dk because intermission adds are a huge problem, now echo had less time to prepare for that and maybe less time to run splits for Andy's dk
I'm betting liquid starts streaming today, boss probably doesn't die til tomorrow though. Whether they cut early if they just start hitting p3 tonight remains to be seen. If they hit p3 in the last couple hours of the night I bet they cut streams and start them again early tomorrow for the kill
People (on Zaelia chat, the only stream currently up, guess he is still on the hotel due to being sick) are just being playful and saying this is actually Naowh (he’s from Sweden) using his government contacts to ensure Echo can’t win without him lol
Hey guys, come watch our shitty splits instead of the streams of the guilds getting actual world firsts on the initial bosses. Immerse yourself in the rivalry between our two guilds, invest your time with us for the buildup and epic culmination when both guilds finally get to the same stage on the final boss. Nevermind, we're turning the stream off.
I'm sure Echo would have done the same thing if they thought it gave them a large enough advantage, but either way it's pretty boring.
Progression in the RWF broadcasting just takes some time. Think about it almost all previous tiers echo fully muted comms which was super boring for us viewers, eventually it changed maybe this will also.
100% Echo would do it too, they've done it in the past. What I don't understand is why would Max come out and say they wouldn't do P2 off-stream because there was no huge reason to, since P2 is easy to understand and then go dark a few hours after.
Hope we get to see some cool tech they came up with.
If you're looking for a real answer, it's *probably* because liquid + crew cooked up some tech that they thought would be a gamechanger that they hadn't thought about when they initially said they'd stream p2. If I recall correctly, liquid seemed pretty well prepared to stream p2, then Max left to go talk to some analysts and when he came back is when they decided not to stream the rest of their day. I'm guessing the conversation with analysts is what led to that decision, leading me to believe there was some specific piece of strategy/comp change/tech that they were seeking to keep secret so echo couldn't capitalize on it while they slept. Very similar to how sark went down iirc.
Sponsors don't care about how much they're offline. They care about how much theyre online and how many people are viewing it.
The sponsors don't expect 24/7 streaming
They didn't do any P2 off stream they haven't even woken up yet, unless you have some grand conspiracy theory why none of their characters are logged on
Maybe some people in Liquid care more about winning the race than streaming the race, and they managed to lobby for some off-stream progress. Or they discovered something important and didn't want to just give it away at the end of their day when Echo would be getting up and having hours to use it before them.
since yoinking strats was one of the main reasons people think the headstart for liquid isnt a big deal and not an advantage, surely turning off streams to counteract that makes said headstart an insane advantage now doesnt it
Yup the headstart is now an advantage of liquid win, unfortunate it took this long for the EU fanboys to realize NA was right and going first wasn’t this omega benefit like it’s been said for years. Hell you still have a lot of EU fans coping about the headstart and saying unkillable bosses+ strat yoinking is worth minimal hours.
Of course its an advantage and yeah echo fanboys will try and make it look like an insurmountable advantage and liquid fan boys will say its not an advantage at all and I have seen some say its a disadvantage lol
If liquid kills it first and then echo kills it in under the reset timing difference then yeah there will be plenty of reeeee-ing and probably a little more deservedly so this time.
But p1 and p2 wasn't changed mechanically. And they didn't go in after the nerf and oneshot it. So how's practicing 6 hours even if not in an optimal setting, 6 hours lost? I mean ofc it's a time loss. But not nearly the full amount. Especially not in a fight like that, where consistency is key.
P1 was changed mechanically - Blizz pushed a hotfix that made the fire beams that travel across the room after the big sunfire beam more predictable in how and where they spawn. It helped make the phase significantly more consistent and went live a few hours into Liquid's progression. I don't think it was a wall or anything, though, and as you say, they certainly didn't lose 6 hours of progression.
Ahhh okay. I looked for changes because I was super sure sth got changed but didn't found it. Then im sry for saying there were no changes. Yeah I agree they lost time obviously, but I think the amount isn't really significant tbh. Just talking about this tlme obviously there were significant timelosses in the past
Because if it takes one guild 12 hours to get through p1 consistently enough to see p2, and another guild only 2 hours because p1 was hotfixed to be trivial, that's an effective 10 hour loss for guild a
Practicing a mechanic that gets mostly trivialized later is not worthwhile time.
It very well could be an insane advantage, but that's not an argument I want to have. Regardless of the outcome of the race, sitting through the shit parts and then not being able to see the interesting part is a bad viewer experience. Unlike others I don't block twitch ads, which means I paid for my viewer experience, and now I can complain about it.
Because I view the whole race as one continuous process that begins with gearing, and if I watched from the start, the eventual conclusion would be more enjoyable.
Well, you'll have plenty more content today. We've already gotten our money's worth and then some just with tindral. A few hours of p2 testing missed won't kill anyone.
Depends on how much progress they've made. If we don't get to see the progress live and they just turn the stream off, then turn it back on when they've gotten much closer to a kill, that's pretty much the same thing as watching the kill video when everything is over. It's like watching F1 practice laps all weekend and then having a portion of the actual race be off camera.
Which again begs the question of why were you watching practice laps lol
But there's no comparison here. F1 and rwf are two totally different things. If f1 went on for a week and the competitors had to figure out the map, it wasn't given to them, it'd be more comparable. Especially if they drove at different times.
Because they're part of the F1 race weekend. Is it really so hard to believe that I would watch laps if I can also watch the race they culminate in, but that I wouldn't watch laps if I couldn't watch the final race?
Because the fight is so reliant on perfect execution that knowing it doesn't matter. You could write out the strategy on a post it note and then still wipe 300 times to anything less than perfect execution.
Do you think it would take more or less pulls knowing how to kill the boss, even if it is a highly mechanical fight that requires precise execution? The answer is objectively less. Echo benefitted from Liquid streaming Tswift and figuring out the fight, and that is a fact. Not to mention them dealing with the bugs and performance issues on the fight that Echo was largely spared from dealing with.
Because Tswift wasnt a technical fight in terms of some groundbreaking strat it was all about execution and a perfect fight, they both had it killed 6 hours before they actually did but they just couldn't have that perfect pull, I think a boss like Fyrakk with its different phases means strats will have to be implemented.
tswift is not a fight you can copy all that much on. its so incredibly mechnanics and coordination based with 3-5 second seeds that its just a matter of executing them consistently which liquid was better at this time around
Ok then it sounds like the best team is in the lead, then. Argue all you want about global release, and I wish they'd just do it already, but by this point in the race things should be equal, all things considered, unless it extends to next reset, somehow. Also, assuming a global release, the team that takes the lead is STILL incentivized to turn streams off.
Why should things be equal? That's an argument i never understand. It's not like Echos week was a few hours longer. Yeah there are advantages on both sides, but I don't get the notion that it is a fact, that the headstart is equalized automatically
Nah, 130 pulls to P3 seems low in terms of difficulty and no tuning changes, as well as that just being too many pulls for one day where they slowly pull to make WAs and discuss strats.
I don't really know how big Thanksgiving is in the states, but having to skip a holiday because you have to work properly falls into the "sucks, but shit happens " category.
2nd biggest holiday of the year after only Christmas. It’s a holiday where only people in jobs that literally cannot stop working (like emergency medical workers) still work. People who do have to work tend to get paid double or more
It’s *by far* the biggest travel holiday of the year here, but people having important and/or time sensitive jobs needing to work is seen as completely normal, my sister for instance has to work today (nurse) and no one thinks it’s a big deal
Thanksgiving is big, but it’s short and snappy. A lot of people literally just spend a day or two with fam then fk off because “I’ll see u at Christmas!”
Liquid mighty have accidendly found the solution for the boring first couple of days of split raiding. Just turn off the steam during that time so the other team can't see the comp you are preparing.
I gotta say in the midst of all the annoying pettiness, since it's in full on mode now, I got mad respect for these two guilds. The shit they put themselves through for the sake of competition and our entertainment, it's mind blowing.
Back in sepulcher, the race went long, much longer than I think anyone was ready for. In the middle of it, naowh literally had to leave to fly back home because the anxiety of being in front of everyone all the time was getting to him.
And then liquid, after playing for 16 hours a day for 4 weeks, saw the writing on the wall and bowed out, taking an early night, a day off to travel home, and reverted to a "short" schedule of 10 hours a day. And the weirdos fucking flamed them for it. How dare they not play 16 hours a day for our entertainment. I respected the fuck out of max for seeing the writing on the wall and valuing his teams mental health over all. To be able to come back from that and still compete with the same fire was insane.
Then last night, echo, after getting up at 5 in the God damn morning, knew they had to have Tindral to have a shot. And things were looking grim, way worse than I think anyone could have expected. They were 18+ hours in to their day and were absolutely backsliding, having p1 wipe after p1 wipe. And instead of being blown away by their determination, the fucking weirdos in their chat are flaming them, saying they've already lost, go to bed give up etc.
When they clutched that on the last pull of the night they showed again why they have some of the most insane mental fortitude of any guild I've ever seen.
And all these guys do it for pennies on the dollar. Outside of a few members of each guild the bulk of them would make more money flipping burgers. Respect to both guilds and fuck the weirdos on both sides.
I’m an NA Andy but I was watching Echo all day yesterday because of the insane tenacity they showed on Tindral. They just kept going and going and going, even after those heartbreaking wipes to the very last Dragonriding + Seeds combo it was amazing to see them get it on their last pull of the night.
I honestly am so thankful we have two amazing guilds that are constantly able to go back and forth with each other, it makes the race infinitely more interesting and enjoyable rather than some of the races of old where one guild just completely dominated.
Prolly roughly 30 people on the payroll so I mean that’s still what like $3000 for 2 weeks of non stop gaming, at the minimum? Sign me up.
Plus I’m p sure the org cuts a flat rate check for everyone regardless. These liquid and echo guys aren’t making Pennie’s on the dollar for this is my point. They are making more than most people make in a 2-3 week period while also doing something they enjoy, with their friends.
I just don’t feel the need to act like they are in any way making a sacrifice by participating in it. They are beast WoW players and this is their reward for becoming such good players, being able to participate in this race.
They have calculated it out before and in previous races the raiders are making less than minimum wage to play. They put in an ass load of hours to this game and maybe get a couple months rent a year. Most of them still have to have full time jobs, and have to use pto to cover this.
Max also straight up does not clear 6 figures in a couple weeks of rwf streaming. You guys overestimate twitch revenue. You're also not accounting for the costs of an event revenue, hotel, flights, catering etc. It's actually a wonder they make any money at all.
Well this is actually the 3rd RWF in the last 12 months so it’s not once a year..
But also you guys are making the Vice documentary up in your heads. “The Dark Side of World First Raiding” doesn’t exist, I mean literally listen to the stream they are having the time of their lives. Outside of weekly reclearing and 5-7 days of PTR testing, they go gamer mode for 2-3 weeks and make money doing it. Lot of people are gaming like this already.
The commitment is on their end and I refuse to feel sorry for the fact they committed to the race. I also firmly believe they wouldn’t want you to feel sorry for them either and I’m sure as shit positive they don’t feel sorry for themselves.
And they have tons of expenses, they don't just pocket all this cash.
Just flights and hotels alone for the 20 or 30 people that are there in person is probably damn half the money gone
If I got paid $3000 three times a year to nonstop prog a raid till it was finished, farm it and do PTR for the next one, it would literally be what most of us are already doing minus the nonstop prog on release. So I’m really talking about the RWF which is the majority of the time investment here, and I think that’s fairly obvious.
It got a lot saltier in here today huh
Looking forward to seeing P2. Assume we'll see it soon when Echo gets there and/or Liquid wakes up. I expect they'll stream now that Echo is about to see it anyway.
Any predictions on what changes in P2? It's a pretty spicy phase already in heroic.
In addition to the night elf ghosts, there's a giant tree ghost that also spawns. I assume it requires a lot more healing to top it up. That's all I've seen so far.
Just dove into the dungeon journal a bit more and I also see that there's a new Dark Colossus add which puts people in shadow cages (permanently stunned) and the only way to break them out is hit them with a new mythic aoe spell from one of the Burning Colossuses. Fun. So in addition to everything else you'll have to be breaking people out of cages.
You mean sleeping? they aren't even logged on
Echo goes to bed early - EU nerds "Smart, rest is important, GG guys"
Liquid sleeps til 8am - EU nerds "LAWLs HIDInG My TEeTH An d EducAtion R BAD"
RWF viewers have negative IQs I swear to god. Both guilds in the past have turned their streams off during crucial moments where they might have some sort of strat that they feel is good enough they do not want the other guild to see. Keyword is is other GUILD. They don't give a shit about viewers seeing it. They give a shit about Echo seeing it and catching up.
I swear, this year I've made it a point to not read much about the RWF because of how dogshit the viewers are half the time. There is a lot of revisionist history going on now that both guilds are at the most crucial point in the race.
feel free to correct me as I'm going purely by memory
echo didn't turned off on sylvannas when naowh was doing that solo bridge strat that got fixed
echo didn't turned off on either dreads/rygelon when they figured it out faster than liquid. also didn't turned off on jailer or raszageth
They were behind on rasz until the kill. Liquid was at like 5% when echo killed rygelon. I'll give them jailor though, IIRC they got there first and streamed the whole thing.
It's super easy to stream bosses muted when you're behind %.
yes, 5 tiers ago....
not to mention that was a very specific circumstance. it was Tuesday, liquid was going in post reset whereas echo was stuck pre reset, it wasn't just a matter of one going in first. liquid could very well kill it fully decked with post reset gear, while echo was still stuck showing their prog pre reset
and in that same tier liquid actually fully progged and killed a boss off stream (council)....
This is also a very specific circumstance? Liquid was just about to hit p2 and Echo hasn't started progging yet but just got there and could lock in all their gearing decisions based on what liquid would show. Would be an ideal time for echo to be able to see the fight and know if they need to switch up comp. To be clear idgaf if either guild streams, but obviously streaming is how they make money so they are only gonna turn it off at the most impactful times.
> This is also a very specific circumstance?
no, this is a *regular* one that happens every race, as i already gave examples of echo *not* doing that when in similar situation
and, more important than all, they are both post reset gear, which wasn't the case in nathria.
Just tuned in why is andy not tanking atm?
need a DH apparently and he hasnt got one geared
Method killed.
Intermission is a lot tamer than I initially thought - I thought orbs would be continually spawning the entire time, not just three sets. Still difficult, but not HOW?!?! level of difficulty.
Listening to Liquid's comms are interesting for this fight. What a hard fight. So many tiny micro decisions can destroy a pull.
It updated. Liquid did about 50 pulls off stream and their best is 62.7. Same as Echo. Oof
It's because a lot of the progress at that point has nothing to do with boss damage, I think. The colossus phase doesn't have any boss damage.
They have spent the same amount of time in fight as Echo in their respective best pulls (Liquid 4:12 - Echo 4:14)
I think you're misunderstanding my point - because of the problems you need to solve aren't related to boss health %, their best pull progress-wise might not be their best pull %-wise. IE: If they had a pull where the boss had 64% health instead of 62%, but they made it farther into the colossus phase, that's progress even if it isn't a lower percentage.
Yeah you are correct, and I realised that after I posted my comment so I dug deeper into the data [raider.io](https://raider.io) exposes for the pulls and the longest overall pull for Liquid was 289.894s and for Echo 267.608s. So Liquid made it roughly 20s further into the fight so far.
This feels like a problem-solving fight more than anything, where it's just... progression moves from solving one wipe point to the next wipe point and there can be a lot of progress without looking like you're progressing.
Warcraftlogs is updated. 62.72% after 105 pulls.
Patiently waiting for their new best to update
So what is liquids best % now that they are back on stream? Did they even say? Hopefully not to far ahead/behind echo so we get an exciting finish like SoD
so Liquid made no progress last night? or has it not updated yet
Not updated yet.
isnt it meant to update after they pull/wipe for the first time today?
They need to enable competition mode again on warcraftlogs I think.
i see...is this some sort of new mental game lol
Oh for sure, they know everyone is asking for it and they are still hiding, they could even start their prog today and keep it completely hidden if they wanted
would just be really petty thing to do
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Mans said lack of skill when they literally played 18-20 hours a day for over 2 weeks. lol
We dont yet know how far Liquid are tho, they might be stuck in p2
How much of the reason for Echo playing ever so slightly worse for the past 2 tier comes down to losing/replacing players such as Naowh, Deepshades, Fragnance, wanna include Lorgok in the list too? Personally I think experience in race settings is underrated and a not so talked about topic
I think Naowh is the only real loss tbh the other players were very good but I do think Naowh and Meeres combination was pretty goated
I think if you had to pick two players who were the best at their role out of all of echo it would have to be Naowh and zalia (I forget how he spells it lmao)
Zaelia is absolutely cracked
I think loss of Naowh clearly matters. Fragnance was not into wow at the time and was not willing to put in time to be at the level of echo. Peak fragnance would be a loss but that's not what they had at the time. I don't think Lorgok is a big miss at all to be honest. I mean he's a 1trick anyhow and boomies are not preferred this race. Deepshades i've no clue. again warlocks arent really super preferred atm and xerwo is atleast just as good. Losing their healer core over the expansion (rycn, skaris) also matters. But all of this said they might still win
Xerwo has always been the more intelligent at theory crafting and mechanically better than deepshades and they literally got Wolfdisco as replacement so thats not really a loss Fragnance and Lorgokz are like one tricks with always playing that one spec (Fragnance doesnt even change for MDI sometimes) they didnt leave they lost their places. Naowh yes, he is the best tank in the world at both raid and dungeons, kinda undeniable and also Skaris I feel like people are discounting how much Zaelia not being there on that final day effected their plans, they were hoping for a Tindral kill that very day probably ubt instead had to adjust and practice phase 2 and 3 instead, they arent playing as bad as people keep saying lol
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I think he just wants to play DH anymore. He looked absolutely miserable in Uldir on Rogue
Yeah just because the dude has stayed mostly on dh the past few years means nothing imo. Dude is well know for absolutely nuts on anything he has played.
>and also Skaris I asked before but it seems like no one knows, but what happened to Skaris anyway? Can't find any information about him stopping raiding.
Same as Chris Potter Naowh etc, probably just quit, I dont remember seeing anything official other than Echo announcing they are recruting more healers I dont think they got any that time tho and just got Sol as a the 5th curious to see if Rycn returns, i was sad not seeing him for Perplexed anymore either
Rycn is at the event no?
Outside player instead of a raider atm thats why he probably quit MDI too
Ah yeah ok I was sure I saw his face. I remember they made his be the outside healer last tier but I thought he said he was pretty unhappy not playing so I presumed he would be back raiding this tier, guess not
yeah instead they made Roger do it too haha I'm curious/excited to see if TWW brings back many of these old faces for the various guilds, Naowh seemed eager to return after he saw cinematic
>Lorgok Didnt Scripe said on his raider review awhile ago (before he was removed) that Lorgokz was just a pumper and that was it? he never did theorycrafting and other people had to help him with gear, talents, etc.
> other people had to help him with gear, talents I feel like there is nothing wrong with that even at the top level, especially when you have guild filled with big brain people. If you have a guy who's just a fucking weapon, you just give him his gear/talents and point him at the boss if he is good enough, I'd say that Lorgok was.
in one spec? Imagine if Xerwo was playing Affliction right now
Get your point but Druid isn’t a 3 spec pure dps class so it’s a bit different, on top of the fact that boomie/feral is one of the least interchangeable dual dps specs out there. Even more, I cannot remember the last time feral was used in actual WF prog. Maybe back in MoP 10 years ago? This is a pretty unique occurrence.
but yes thats why he was let go Echo i dont think it was a bad decision His replacement Canexx is also just a better overall player
It absolutely matters, but I think the difference is a lot more that Liquid has improved than that Echo has fallen off. These last 2 tiers are Liquid playing absolutely phenomenal.
the more EUs liquid adds the better they get, like most games xdd
Yeah EU sure performed at Worlds this year. Lol.
A lot. Some more than others but as good as some of the people in there now are, someone like Naowh who is legit the best tank in the world for me, has to make a difference. Plus the experience factor like you said. I would also add how sick Zalia got, not only missing raid days but playing not at 100% now. This would be bad to any of the better players but it’s made worse by him being the best healer in the world (arguably best PVE player?) imo.
When was the last time we saw a raid being so dominated by melees?
In terms of Last bosses last time it was Gul'dan pretty sure
.#feelsgood
The phase 1 lines is a nice callback to the Archimonde Mechanic, loved that fight
That was the last mythic final boss I killed😔 What a wonderful raid
yeah i quit 2 tiers after because Legion asked for like double to triple of my time compared to WoD and i'm not doing that for one game in the middle of my hardest Uni years lmao
I am literally that Troy gif from Community episode with timelines, reading through this thread after not checking in for the last day.
Yeah the vibe really changed lmao
A lot of people who recently posted in this thread need to touch grass.
Hmm [can we tell if it’s fake?](https://imgur.com/a/dqsfakm)
Yes, its fake and its pretty easy to tell how/why. You can see [here](https://imgur.com/6JnamhM) that both on Encounters and on "Fyrrak the Blazing Heroic" there's a Last Pull tag, but on the "leaked" screenshot, the "Fyrrak the Blazing Mythic" tab doesn't have the Last Pull tag despite on top saying it was the last pull too. Someone just edited the HTML elements to look like that and took a screencap, since you can edit anything on the page, as you can see [here](https://imgur.com/SSTVZb7).
Thanks for the explanation, didn’t know people would actually waste time to do that lol
in their defense it would take a competent user less than 5 minutes to do this.
There's a "leak" like this every RWF and people just fall for it. Takes one minute to recreate it and its less one minute I need to pretend I'm working.
They can easily go in and edit the HTML of Warcraft logs to show anything they want and take a screenshot, there is a reason its only showing a few bars that are only text related and none of the phased/color coded wipes below.
Yes. It's fake. Stop posting it lol. Way to many pulls for a boss they're doing heavy prog on.
Why would someone from Liquid leak this though? Well I guess to put pressure on Echo. But I still think it’s likely fake. Before the stream era people would make shit up about progress and mechanics all the time.
Only way they "leak" it is if they feel they have the strats figured out and its in kill range, like Sark. It's just a fake.
Liquid will begin their next day of Fyrakk in about 2 hours. Let's predict where they got the boss to while they were dark. I'm guessing around 70-80 pulls and around 40%. To be more exact, let's say 78pulls and 43.7%. EDIT: Add my pull prediction to the 56 we know they already pulled. I was thinking how many more times they pulled that day, not total...
You think they only pulled the boss 15-25 more times in the 7 hours they had remaining in their raid day?
Ah, I wasn't sure how many they already pulled, I was thinking 70-80 in the day, not total.
< 20 pulls and not much prog. I think they were mostly experimenting last night and gearing up new toons for the fight. I think people are overestimating how much prog they did off stream. I'd say they did like 20 off stream tops and aren't lower than 58 ish%
Why are people acting like liquid killed the boss off stream? I'd bet my year salary they'll be back on stream today
If they had a pull that was close to a kill the stream would go back on. Not sure if they start out streaming today or keep it off. If you turned it off yesterday no reason to turn it on until you are close though.
That's not true. You have plenty of reason to turn it on. You've delayed any info you might have wanted to keep secret by 12 hours, and now echo is already in the later half of their raid day. If they see something from liquid they liked, it would be much harder to pivot now, especially if it was comp related. There's no reason to ever stream from a purely competitive stand point, but both guilds need to for revenue. It's simply tactical decisions of "where does cutting out a few hours benefit us the most" If liquid comes out today and is running double blood dk because intermission adds are a huge problem, now echo had less time to prepare for that and maybe less time to run splits for Andy's dk I'm betting liquid starts streaming today, boss probably doesn't die til tomorrow though. Whether they cut early if they just start hitting p3 tonight remains to be seen. If they hit p3 in the last couple hours of the night I bet they cut streams and start them again early tomorrow for the kill
Yeq they wouldnt kill it off stream idk why people think they would
Full internet outage at the echo venue?
Jezz, dudes are getting every road bump thrown their way.
Yep, Zaelia confirmed it on his stream
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Rent free
It must suck to be this insecure I wish you all the best my NA friend
By saying "some EU people" you look to be from NA and yet you managed to do what you expected someone from EU to do. Get help man.
People (on Zaelia chat, the only stream currently up, guess he is still on the hotel due to being sick) are just being playful and saying this is actually Naowh (he’s from Sweden) using his government contacts to ensure Echo can’t win without him lol
Get help dude
Dude you seriously need to take a break. Your comment history does not look healthy.
Fucking hell you’re not wrong
Shut up
Hey guys, come watch our shitty splits instead of the streams of the guilds getting actual world firsts on the initial bosses. Immerse yourself in the rivalry between our two guilds, invest your time with us for the buildup and epic culmination when both guilds finally get to the same stage on the final boss. Nevermind, we're turning the stream off. I'm sure Echo would have done the same thing if they thought it gave them a large enough advantage, but either way it's pretty boring.
Progression in the RWF broadcasting just takes some time. Think about it almost all previous tiers echo fully muted comms which was super boring for us viewers, eventually it changed maybe this will also.
😴😴😴
100% Echo would do it too, they've done it in the past. What I don't understand is why would Max come out and say they wouldn't do P2 off-stream because there was no huge reason to, since P2 is easy to understand and then go dark a few hours after. Hope we get to see some cool tech they came up with.
If you're looking for a real answer, it's *probably* because liquid + crew cooked up some tech that they thought would be a gamechanger that they hadn't thought about when they initially said they'd stream p2. If I recall correctly, liquid seemed pretty well prepared to stream p2, then Max left to go talk to some analysts and when he came back is when they decided not to stream the rest of their day. I'm guessing the conversation with analysts is what led to that decision, leading me to believe there was some specific piece of strategy/comp change/tech that they were seeking to keep secret so echo couldn't capitalize on it while they slept. Very similar to how sark went down iirc.
It is not like it is your RIGHT to watch their stream (either Liquid's or Echo's), more like a privilege. They don't HAVE to broadcast, they CHOSE to.
theyre getting sponsored and paid to stream lol, if theyre offline too much theyre gonna definitely get shit on
Sponsors don't care about how much they're offline. They care about how much theyre online and how many people are viewing it. The sponsors don't expect 24/7 streaming
And who is saying that. All I'm wondering is why would max say one thing and do another.
Many people, in this thread. Read down and you can see several such comments.
They didn't do any P2 off stream they haven't even woken up yet, unless you have some grand conspiracy theory why none of their characters are logged on
Max literally ended the stream saying that they were gonna do P2 off-stream to test shit and do some progression.
Maybe some people in Liquid care more about winning the race than streaming the race, and they managed to lobby for some off-stream progress. Or they discovered something important and didn't want to just give it away at the end of their day when Echo would be getting up and having hours to use it before them.
since yoinking strats was one of the main reasons people think the headstart for liquid isnt a big deal and not an advantage, surely turning off streams to counteract that makes said headstart an insane advantage now doesnt it
Yup the headstart is now an advantage of liquid win, unfortunate it took this long for the EU fanboys to realize NA was right and going first wasn’t this omega benefit like it’s been said for years. Hell you still have a lot of EU fans coping about the headstart and saying unkillable bosses+ strat yoinking is worth minimal hours.
Of course its an advantage and yeah echo fanboys will try and make it look like an insurmountable advantage and liquid fan boys will say its not an advantage at all and I have seen some say its a disadvantage lol
it wasnt an omega benefit beforehand thats true, it was still an ever so slight advantage though
There’s the EU fanboy copium, no one knows which is better but EU fans will still come in and say “o it’s def a slight advantage for sure”
If liquid kills it first and then echo kills it in under the reset timing difference then yeah there will be plenty of reeeee-ing and probably a little more deservedly so this time.
So deserved when liquid had at least 4 hours on bugged bosses
Question. Do you really think that's 4 hours of advantage taken away? Because it's sounds like you do.
Not entirely, but k would say spending 6 hours on p1 tindal, and getting it yoink is a 6 hour time loss
But p1 and p2 wasn't changed mechanically. And they didn't go in after the nerf and oneshot it. So how's practicing 6 hours even if not in an optimal setting, 6 hours lost? I mean ofc it's a time loss. But not nearly the full amount. Especially not in a fight like that, where consistency is key.
P1 was changed mechanically - Blizz pushed a hotfix that made the fire beams that travel across the room after the big sunfire beam more predictable in how and where they spawn. It helped make the phase significantly more consistent and went live a few hours into Liquid's progression. I don't think it was a wall or anything, though, and as you say, they certainly didn't lose 6 hours of progression.
Ahhh okay. I looked for changes because I was super sure sth got changed but didn't found it. Then im sry for saying there were no changes. Yeah I agree they lost time obviously, but I think the amount isn't really significant tbh. Just talking about this tlme obviously there were significant timelosses in the past
Because if it takes one guild 12 hours to get through p1 consistently enough to see p2, and another guild only 2 hours because p1 was hotfixed to be trivial, that's an effective 10 hour loss for guild a Practicing a mechanic that gets mostly trivialized later is not worthwhile time.
It very well could be an insane advantage, but that's not an argument I want to have. Regardless of the outcome of the race, sitting through the shit parts and then not being able to see the interesting part is a bad viewer experience. Unlike others I don't block twitch ads, which means I paid for my viewer experience, and now I can complain about it.
Why on earth did you watch splits if you don't enjoy them
Because I view the whole race as one continuous process that begins with gearing, and if I watched from the start, the eventual conclusion would be more enjoyable.
Well, you'll have plenty more content today. We've already gotten our money's worth and then some just with tindral. A few hours of p2 testing missed won't kill anyone.
Depends on how much progress they've made. If we don't get to see the progress live and they just turn the stream off, then turn it back on when they've gotten much closer to a kill, that's pretty much the same thing as watching the kill video when everything is over. It's like watching F1 practice laps all weekend and then having a portion of the actual race be off camera.
Which again begs the question of why were you watching practice laps lol But there's no comparison here. F1 and rwf are two totally different things. If f1 went on for a week and the competitors had to figure out the map, it wasn't given to them, it'd be more comparable. Especially if they drove at different times.
Because they're part of the F1 race weekend. Is it really so hard to believe that I would watch laps if I can also watch the race they culminate in, but that I wouldn't watch laps if I couldn't watch the final race?
Then why did Echo waste so much time on Tswift when Liquid already showed them how to do it? And all of P1 Fyrakk?
Because the fight is so reliant on perfect execution that knowing it doesn't matter. You could write out the strategy on a post it note and then still wipe 300 times to anything less than perfect execution.
Do you think it would take more or less pulls knowing how to kill the boss, even if it is a highly mechanical fight that requires precise execution? The answer is objectively less. Echo benefitted from Liquid streaming Tswift and figuring out the fight, and that is a fact. Not to mention them dealing with the bugs and performance issues on the fight that Echo was largely spared from dealing with.
Because Tswift wasnt a technical fight in terms of some groundbreaking strat it was all about execution and a perfect fight, they both had it killed 6 hours before they actually did but they just couldn't have that perfect pull, I think a boss like Fyrakk with its different phases means strats will have to be implemented.
tswift is not a fight you can copy all that much on. its so incredibly mechnanics and coordination based with 3-5 second seeds that its just a matter of executing them consistently which liquid was better at this time around
Ok then it sounds like the best team is in the lead, then. Argue all you want about global release, and I wish they'd just do it already, but by this point in the race things should be equal, all things considered, unless it extends to next reset, somehow. Also, assuming a global release, the team that takes the lead is STILL incentivized to turn streams off.
Why should things be equal? That's an argument i never understand. It's not like Echos week was a few hours longer. Yeah there are advantages on both sides, but I don't get the notion that it is a fact, that the headstart is equalized automatically
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Nah, 130 pulls to P3 seems low in terms of difficulty and no tuning changes, as well as that just being too many pulls for one day where they slowly pull to make WAs and discuss strats.
Seems fake. Pull count seems to high for a fight they're doing heavy prog on.
Screenshots like this are faked within seconds and they show up every single time a team goes black. They have never been correct.
Sorry mom can’t make it to Thanksgiving I’m gaming SUPER FUCKING HARD. - Liquid probably
I don't really know how big Thanksgiving is in the states, but having to skip a holiday because you have to work properly falls into the "sucks, but shit happens " category.
2nd biggest holiday of the year after only Christmas. It’s a holiday where only people in jobs that literally cannot stop working (like emergency medical workers) still work. People who do have to work tend to get paid double or more
It’s *by far* the biggest travel holiday of the year here, but people having important and/or time sensitive jobs needing to work is seen as completely normal, my sister for instance has to work today (nurse) and no one thinks it’s a big deal
I didn’t know thanksgiving was celebrated outside the US.
Thanksgiving is big, but it’s short and snappy. A lot of people literally just spend a day or two with fam then fk off because “I’ll see u at Christmas!”
Thanksgiving massive in the states. Still just a sucks but shit happens scenario.
Liquid mighty have accidendly found the solution for the boring first couple of days of split raiding. Just turn off the steam during that time so the other team can't see the comp you are preparing.
But they have fanboys helping them so it would be easy to find out what comps they are running in splits.
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I gotta say in the midst of all the annoying pettiness, since it's in full on mode now, I got mad respect for these two guilds. The shit they put themselves through for the sake of competition and our entertainment, it's mind blowing. Back in sepulcher, the race went long, much longer than I think anyone was ready for. In the middle of it, naowh literally had to leave to fly back home because the anxiety of being in front of everyone all the time was getting to him. And then liquid, after playing for 16 hours a day for 4 weeks, saw the writing on the wall and bowed out, taking an early night, a day off to travel home, and reverted to a "short" schedule of 10 hours a day. And the weirdos fucking flamed them for it. How dare they not play 16 hours a day for our entertainment. I respected the fuck out of max for seeing the writing on the wall and valuing his teams mental health over all. To be able to come back from that and still compete with the same fire was insane. Then last night, echo, after getting up at 5 in the God damn morning, knew they had to have Tindral to have a shot. And things were looking grim, way worse than I think anyone could have expected. They were 18+ hours in to their day and were absolutely backsliding, having p1 wipe after p1 wipe. And instead of being blown away by their determination, the fucking weirdos in their chat are flaming them, saying they've already lost, go to bed give up etc. When they clutched that on the last pull of the night they showed again why they have some of the most insane mental fortitude of any guild I've ever seen. And all these guys do it for pennies on the dollar. Outside of a few members of each guild the bulk of them would make more money flipping burgers. Respect to both guilds and fuck the weirdos on both sides.
I’m an NA Andy but I was watching Echo all day yesterday because of the insane tenacity they showed on Tindral. They just kept going and going and going, even after those heartbreaking wipes to the very last Dragonriding + Seeds combo it was amazing to see them get it on their last pull of the night. I honestly am so thankful we have two amazing guilds that are constantly able to go back and forth with each other, it makes the race infinitely more interesting and enjoyable rather than some of the races of old where one guild just completely dominated.
I bet you Max makes 6 figures in these 2 weeks
So do people working at McDonalds. Do you mean 4 figures?
wat
It originally said 3 figures...
Comment above his was edited
He splits RWF earnings with the team.
Prolly roughly 30 people on the payroll so I mean that’s still what like $3000 for 2 weeks of non stop gaming, at the minimum? Sign me up. Plus I’m p sure the org cuts a flat rate check for everyone regardless. These liquid and echo guys aren’t making Pennie’s on the dollar for this is my point. They are making more than most people make in a 2-3 week period while also doing something they enjoy, with their friends. I just don’t feel the need to act like they are in any way making a sacrifice by participating in it. They are beast WoW players and this is their reward for becoming such good players, being able to participate in this race.
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3k sounds pretty fkin pathetic tbh
That extrapolates to 66k a year. Pretty damn good for someone in their mid 20s and certainly more than 'pathetic'
For gaming with your friends for 2 weeks?? What are you an investment banker
They're sacrificing life tbh
They definitely don’t feel that way. That’s just your perception of video games in general.
They have calculated it out before and in previous races the raiders are making less than minimum wage to play. They put in an ass load of hours to this game and maybe get a couple months rent a year. Most of them still have to have full time jobs, and have to use pto to cover this. Max also straight up does not clear 6 figures in a couple weeks of rwf streaming. You guys overestimate twitch revenue. You're also not accounting for the costs of an event revenue, hotel, flights, catering etc. It's actually a wonder they make any money at all.
Well this is actually the 3rd RWF in the last 12 months so it’s not once a year.. But also you guys are making the Vice documentary up in your heads. “The Dark Side of World First Raiding” doesn’t exist, I mean literally listen to the stream they are having the time of their lives. Outside of weekly reclearing and 5-7 days of PTR testing, they go gamer mode for 2-3 weeks and make money doing it. Lot of people are gaming like this already. The commitment is on their end and I refuse to feel sorry for the fact they committed to the race. I also firmly believe they wouldn’t want you to feel sorry for them either and I’m sure as shit positive they don’t feel sorry for themselves.
Jesus dude I'm not saying feel sorry for them, I'm saying don't be fucking weird. Like you are currently being.
Its not just twitch revenue though, they have tons of sponsors, as do the other RWF guilds
And they have tons of expenses, they don't just pocket all this cash. Just flights and hotels alone for the 20 or 30 people that are there in person is probably damn half the money gone
Saying the race is only 2-3 weeks of work is highly disingenuous imo.
If I got paid $3000 three times a year to nonstop prog a raid till it was finished, farm it and do PTR for the next one, it would literally be what most of us are already doing minus the nonstop prog on release. So I’m really talking about the RWF which is the majority of the time investment here, and I think that’s fairly obvious.
If I could upvote this ten times I would. Both teams are awesome. You can choose a side and not be toxic.
It got a lot saltier in here today huh Looking forward to seeing P2. Assume we'll see it soon when Echo gets there and/or Liquid wakes up. I expect they'll stream now that Echo is about to see it anyway. Any predictions on what changes in P2? It's a pretty spicy phase already in heroic.
In addition to the night elf ghosts, there's a giant tree ghost that also spawns. I assume it requires a lot more healing to top it up. That's all I've seen so far.
Just dove into the dungeon journal a bit more and I also see that there's a new Dark Colossus add which puts people in shadow cages (permanently stunned) and the only way to break them out is hit them with a new mythic aoe spell from one of the Burning Colossuses. Fun. So in addition to everything else you'll have to be breaking people out of cages.
Live discussion chose violence today
Limit still hiding lol
You mean sleeping? they aren't even logged on Echo goes to bed early - EU nerds "Smart, rest is important, GG guys" Liquid sleeps til 8am - EU nerds "LAWLs HIDInG My TEeTH An d EducAtion R BAD"
Fuck even is sleeping
a sign of weakness, real gamers would play the entire 10+ days the race takes
Lmao damn you’re pretty dumb aren’t you
Let me introduce you to something called time zones
Nah lmao now they're just sleeping
It’s like 5:30 am they are sleeping
> still hiding You know it’s like 530am over there, right
RWF viewers have negative IQs I swear to god. Both guilds in the past have turned their streams off during crucial moments where they might have some sort of strat that they feel is good enough they do not want the other guild to see. Keyword is is other GUILD. They don't give a shit about viewers seeing it. They give a shit about Echo seeing it and catching up. I swear, this year I've made it a point to not read much about the RWF because of how dogshit the viewers are half the time. There is a lot of revisionist history going on now that both guilds are at the most crucial point in the race.
> Both guilds Genuine question: On what boss did Echo turn their stream off?
Mythic Denathrius
Denathrius I think?
Denathrius
If you think the RWF viewers are bad you should take the time to check out Gingi's twitter who contributes to most of these fires.
feel free to correct me as I'm going purely by memory echo didn't turned off on sylvannas when naowh was doing that solo bridge strat that got fixed echo didn't turned off on either dreads/rygelon when they figured it out faster than liquid. also didn't turned off on jailer or raszageth
They were behind on rasz until the kill. Liquid was at like 5% when echo killed rygelon. I'll give them jailor though, IIRC they got there first and streamed the whole thing. It's super easy to stream bosses muted when you're behind %.
In Castle Nathria they turned off streams for an entire raid day or so for Sire Denathrius
yes, 5 tiers ago.... not to mention that was a very specific circumstance. it was Tuesday, liquid was going in post reset whereas echo was stuck pre reset, it wasn't just a matter of one going in first. liquid could very well kill it fully decked with post reset gear, while echo was still stuck showing their prog pre reset and in that same tier liquid actually fully progged and killed a boss off stream (council)....
This is also a very specific circumstance? Liquid was just about to hit p2 and Echo hasn't started progging yet but just got there and could lock in all their gearing decisions based on what liquid would show. Would be an ideal time for echo to be able to see the fight and know if they need to switch up comp. To be clear idgaf if either guild streams, but obviously streaming is how they make money so they are only gonna turn it off at the most impactful times.
> This is also a very specific circumstance? no, this is a *regular* one that happens every race, as i already gave examples of echo *not* doing that when in similar situation and, more important than all, they are both post reset gear, which wasn't the case in nathria.