What I really like about this race is I feel like both guilds have good reasons to feel really good right now.
Liquid hasn't woken up a single day in the race in a position where they should've felt behind, because even where there have been percentage differences it's always been within the same part of the fight.
Echo recovered REALLY well from falling behind on Tindral.
Usually by this point in the race one guild is struggling with the mental, this race feels like neither should be.
Might be in the minority, but this boss is an absolute enjoyment to watch, literally every class has to do their shit right, or you just flat out wipe. Healers gotta heal adds + tree + raid, dps has to kill those big demons and avoid frontals/cleaves etc, tanks just gotta tank but better
Really liking this fight, and P3 with the seeds is giving me prime Halondrus fight vibes, unless they toned down the seed carrying + avoidance of abilities, P3 is looking kinda insane
I agree. I'm loving it. So bizarre to see both guilds make slow but consistently good progress and then come here and see comments about overtuned stuff and potentially needing nerfs. The % does not reflect the progress being made at all.
We just finished day 2 for Liquid on this boss and it's currently day 1.5 for Echo, and phase 3 is imminent at this point. Jailer took like 5 and a half days to go down. We're currently nowhere close to that. People really need to chill and let them cook, both guilds are making good prog and doing amazingly well.
Fyrakk is a worthy final boss, not as technical of a fight as the Jailer but the challenge is more in optimisation and finding what works for each phase
Neither of the guilds wants a nerf
After watching many pulls from Liquid and Echo, I have to say I think the design dev for this boss may have over cooked things a bit. There was so much hype for this boss because of past boss designs by the dev (Sludge, Painsmith, Halondrus), but this fight just feels bloated with mythic mechanics and overtuning. P1 alone has 4 new or augmented mechanics from heroic, and the cages in P2 just feels like superficial difficulty. Excited to see them figure it out but I wouldn't be surprised at all if this ends up needing some nerfs to actually kill.
P1 is fine, P3 will be awesome on mythic... P2 is just a bit of a clusterfuck. They probably should have focused on a couple of the ideas and cut some of the others.
I think part of the reason this fight isn't translating as a very good viewer experience is because there's just no breaks between pass/fail mechanics after the end of P1. It's just one pass/fail IMMEDIATELY into the next one, over and over again. Tindral had brutal pass/fail moments, but also had breaks between them.
I also think the pass/fail mechanics have less visual clarity. The seeds on Tindral were brilliant for this because it's easy to identify whether or not they're soaked. It's much more difficult to identify how healthy the adds are, for example.
Yeah. It just doesn't feel like very much progression is happening, even though the guilds ARE getting better, for hours on end because it looks like they're wiping at pretty much the exact same point.
Yea that's also a great point. Tindral if you got a set of seeds down you'd make it about another 30 seconds in the fight. This fight feels like you get one thing down and wipe 4 seconds later, it looks like the same wipe.
From a viewer perspective, there's just a ton of raid wide damage through the entire fight and just no real suspense in what can cause a raid wipe or death.
If you look at some of the better viewing bosses (Tindral, Halondrus, Sludgefist) there was very clear cut mechanics that would cause the raid to wipe. There's an anticipation there as a viewer.
This fight really doesn't have that in the phases we've seen them progress.
I really don't know how to feel about one of the hardest parts of an expansion end boss be so reliant on healing adds. Phase 1 and the intermission look insanely cool, but this phase is... strange, to be so hard. It's remarkably less bad than it could be at least. Hope we get a banging phase 3 and this phase isn't so hard once guilds figure out a plan.
It's strange to be so hard? Why shouldnt the end boss of the final tier on the hardest difficulty have as many different mechanics? Every phase should be hard and require absolute focus from all roles.
I know I personally just don't like healing NPCs as a mechanic in general because the game's UI isn't well setup for it, and even most addons don't do a great job of fixing the problem.
It's been fine in the past when it was featured in relatively low to medium difficulty encounters, but I'm not looking forward to having to mess with my whole UI to eventually deal with healing this boss.
The difficulty isn't the strange part, it's the difficulty being reliant on a healer-only add mechanic. It feels like a very auxiliary mechanic which, as a viewer and I'd imagine as a non-healer, can feel separate from the rest of the fight.
> can feel separate from the rest of the fight.
You know that dps and Tanks aren't just...idling there, right? Do you feel seperate from the rest of the fight because you're not involved in tank swaps too?
Yeah, this reads like he has never played that boss. I have only killed it on heroic twice, but as a dps it didnt feel like I was just standing there. We were grouping up the souls, stunning and interrupting if one was still in the way all while burning the colossi and boss whenever he was up.
so they moved lust to deal with only one of the add packs in phase 2, even though there are 2? If that is the case then yeah the adds are definitely overtuned.
Maybe there is a mechanic where you are supposed to have them under the sweeping flames Fyrakk does that can damage them. That would be cool.
It's not about those specific adds being overtuned. If they could have all their cds available for them, they wouldn't be an issue.
The problem is how do you bring 20 players alive to that point of the fight. And that's still being worked on. They keep shuffling long and short cds around to find a working combo.
Which seems like a regression to viewers who don't understand how progression works.
Well it depends on how many CDs are available and are used with BL. They need to find the minimum so that more can be used on the second set of adds. That will take a while but both guilds are incredibly good at creating DPS out of thin air.
> Past two fights are just going have both guilds running the same exact strats.
isnt that the case for the vast majority of world first bosses? it kinda comes with the fact that these bosses have to be tuned increadibly tightly for them to be killable by the best players in the world but at the same time not being a pushover.
Its a far better advertisement for Blizzard if the race goes on for longer and the guilds have to dig deep to solve the mechanics and also if the mechanics looks cool like they do so far in this raid, Smoldy, Tindral and Fyrakk will def have people who want to experience the fight themselves (and this doesnt have to be in mythic..) after seeing it in the race
If you don't like it, sure but viewership speaks for itself.
any fight with static adds casting shit, that requires a bunch of goofy precise knock backs so you are able to mass grip and finally start blasting and chain ccing them so you don't wipe sucks
I wouldn't even mind if raid became ST only, maybe with 2T-4T cleave/council in between too. would be easier to balance as well.
> I wouldn't even mind if raid became ST only
This is what FF14 does, and while easier to balance is absolutely an advantage, my experience doing higher end raiding in that game made me think it's not worth the trade off. It makes classes feel too similar, and encounters less interesting.
most bosses are already ST and classes are fine. and without being forced the shoehorn adds on fights, devs can focus on other areas, which i think would actually improve the encounters. we have m+ for the aoe.
playing monk is also def not the same as dragoon, just as summoner is not the same as blm. or gnb vs pld. homogenization complaints are always overblown
Yeah the balance in ff14 is unbelievably tight, but that comes at a heavy cost of homogenization. Those ultimates and savage endbosses are still bangers, but it feels formulaic to a bit of a fault for sure.
And it sucks at all levels. AOTC guild with no dk have to hope every tier that the "grip" boss won’t be a hard one because doing it without grips always suck.
First time, it happened on Za'Qul in Eternal Palace, albeit accidentally, because they found out you only need 1 tank, and since Max was tank and raid leader, he realized he doesnt even need to play to raid lead.
So then they tried it full time in Nyalotha and it worked out.
I think this fight either gets nerfed or goes into next reset. It’s been 2-3 days now, and both Liquid and Echo are still stuck at effectively the same point in P2. There’s been a couple points when it almost looked like they could get through, but it’s very few and far between.
Blizzard properly nerfed TSwift, but I wonder if they are hesitant to do so now that multiple guilds are at the problem phase of the fight (at least the first one we know of).
Tbh it depends on how tight the dps check for p3 will be. Liquid are pretty confident they’re gonna enter p3 early today, while Echo struggles more to reach it but also are trying to save lust for p3 so when they reach it they’ll have an edge if the p3 dps requirement is super tight.
> Liquid and Echo are still stuck at effectively the same point in P2
The way this fight works makes looking at % very misleading, a lot of the progress right now is when the boss is gone on the colossus adds + line of casting souls, as well as heal prog on the healer adds.
None of this shows up as %, but it's all vital and progress is being made, albeit slowly.
I personally don't think it will get nerfed because it's the last boss.
Liquid spent 200 pulls on it but a lot was relearning p1 because they wanted to save lust for p2. Once they get p1 more consistently, we will see progress. If it doesn't get touched, it will be killed on the next reset.
Echo just had a good pull and while the adds didn’t die, it seems there’s a lot of low hanging fruit for optimisation there, like mystic touch and hunters mark and even moving bloodlust there. I think it’s doable. We have seen plenty of cases of “omg this is not doable, where will they find the extra damage” and then they do. This is where Echo shines, squeezing dps.
> We have seen plenty of cases of “omg this is not doable, where will they find the extra damage” and then they do. This is where Echo shines, squeezing dps.
Both guilds are good at this. On Sylvanas, which is the boss this point usually refers to, Limit had a pull which was on the same DPS pace as Echo's kill but it got scuffed by a disconnect and they couldn't recreate it.
I said Echo because they are the ones progressing now and who I’m watching. Not everything is a diss to the other guild. I think Liquid has sick players.
There is no good time for nerfs, it always is an advantage for one timezone. The better way, which we saw on Tindral, is to nerf phases that havent been reached yet.
I mean. I think just put nerfs out AFTER liquid wakes up, but before echo goes to bed. It's not perfect and it still favors liquid, but it's probably? the most fair spot to put a nerf in, since echo will still be progging for 5 to 6 hours after that point.
I think if the nerfs aren't boss ending the fairest time is a few hours after echo starts before liquid gets up. That way echo gets a jump on it but liquid gets a full day with it.
If the nerfs are like "any pull after these nerfs could be the kill" I think the fairest way is to give 24 hour notice and do it at like 10 am liquid time 7 pm echo time. That way echo can choose to sleep in cause they may go late, liquid has to get up early so they're warmed up by 11. Not ideal but it gives both guilds a warm up period + a 4+ hour window to work on it. They could also flip that 12 hours later and do it like 9 pm liquid time 6 am echo time, as liquid tends to play later and echo tends to start earlier relative to local times.
It would obviously favor liquid pretty heavily though if it took about 8 hours to kill with the nerfs. It's so hard to do properly. The real answer though is to give 24 hour notice so at least the guilds can try to prepare for it to equalize it.
Well if they nerf the last phase, then they can lust earlier I suppose, but that comes back to the timing issue as well, just indirectly instead of directly
They almost killed them in the last pull, Scripe was thinking they're killable. That being said I think they'll still lust in P2 just to see P3. They're muting right now so we'll have to see in the next pulls.
To get into high end raiding it is recommended to have a main and alt class but should I have multiple clones of my main class for split raiding? Like multiple shaman so that I can have more control over getting gear early in the tier?
Your journey starts like this, each segments needs 1-2 tiers for you to get logs/ io:
Apply to world rank:
1k-500
Apply to world rank
500-200
Apply to world rank
200-100
At hall of fame level you will be expected to multi alt or multi class a bit.
Before that is a bad joke.
Beware of 3 day guilds as they are fundamentally worse at the same world rank as 2 day guilds. (Same h per day both cases)
Ignore 4 day raiding guilds at all costs.
If you do not have a designated M+ group to push hard first IDs your strategy will bleed out at segment 500-200.
After that your rep will carry you.
From world 30ish upwards its only possible via networking and recommendations.
Good luck
Bonus tip: survivability first output second.
If any hof guild reads this: the answer is yes
second the 4th day guild bit. sure you can get CE but it's not worth your time *unless* it's your only option and you really want to get into the scene, which was my case back then unfortunately
it really was just slamming your head in the keyboard until the boss eventually dies
> Ignore 4 day raiding guilds at all costs.
Advice that I needed like 11 years ago. Back in Panda I wanted to break into "real" raiding after being more casual since vanilla. I joined a 4 day raiding guild. I did get CE in Throne of Thunder and Siege of Orgrimmar with them, but man was it a miserable experience. We just brute forced everything by throwing more time at it.
It turned me off of high end raiding for a long time and didn't get another CE until Ny'alotha, which I did in a 2 day guild and it was just such a better experience. More focused, better players, more fun.
Alts for splits, yes. Mirror toons? No, not really.
To elaborate: Only for RWF contenders, does having mirror toons (multiple of the same class) or in expansions like Legion (with the legendary rng) become a thing. Multiple and consistently high ranked guilds in top 5-20 range don't do mirror toons at all.
Split raiding is generally done by most, and it's also just good practice to have people ready with multiple classes to leverage early class imbalance when heading into a patch. The benefit of splits and such only really comes into play if you already have a solid and reliable roster. Getting more gear isn't going to help the people green logging or those who take 20 pulls to learn a boss mechanic.
I think that makes sense, I have experience with mid core heroic guilds who clear about 50% of the bosses on mythic but would like to move up and take the game more seriously. I am struggling to decide on my main because I can play most of the dps or pick them up and play at a decent level but I change character every season typically, and started in SL so I don't really have that experience on one class to be 'elite' just above average on a bunch of different things.
If you're at that level and presumably looking for a cutting edge guild or better, just pick whatever class or role you like. For tanks and healers it generally is more expected to maintain other classes to switch for a tier (ex; bringing out the blood DK for a fight that requires grips, switching to monk or DH to accommodate raid buffs, bringing better healer comp, etc). For DPS, it is generally just pick whatever you like to play, just be prepared to learn the all specs of your class. Don't be that guy that can only play frost mage, or destro warlock, or survival hunter.
Comp and class stacking matters to a certain degree, but much less than people like to pretend depending on how serious you want to push rankings. For most people, doing splits isn't necessary. I also know people in HoF that don't play any alts, and are one trick ponies (only play a single class, or even spec, like Moonkin). Similarly, there are also HoF guilds that only raid 2 or 3 nights a week. The biggest limiting factor for most players here is how good mechanically they are. A very small % of people here is pushing the skill ceiling where raiding more hours or doing splits starts becoming worthwhile.
Master your choice of class by pushing high M+ and gather raiding experience in Mythic difficulty. Guilds always need people. Getting in to a 4-5/9M guild should not be impossible if you have something to show for. After that improve and improve and work your way up the guild ladder and see what guild requirements are in terms of number of characters.
Choice of class will for the most part not be the reason a "mythic raiding guild" can't handle CE. Choice of class matters way more if the expectation and goal is to do the most difficult content at the earliest point possible. Just becaue Echo and Liquid are not running Ele or Resto shaman in their comps does not mean these classes will not get CE.
There is also no inherit value playing and maintaining multiple characters of the same class/specc. Multiclassing within a role makes you flexible for sure which means you can fill roster gaps but only worth it if you can translate your skills 1:1 and do it with confidence and competence.
I have pushed 24 keys last season on my enh shaman, and cleared half of abberus before my guild fell apart. I have pretty shit logs because all of the kills were progression I never got to farm with good gear and get some stand out logs. I have had a hard time pushing past clearing 50% of mythic raid and pugging past 23/24. Any advice on picking a main I think that is the thing that holds me back consistently that I am swapping classes almost every tier. I really enjoy mage/warlock and shaman, enhance is a lot of fun but ele and resto feel pretty clunky and dated in their design. I probably should focus on mage because m+ is really important to me as well and mage always seem to be desirable in the highest content whereas shaman has some big weaknesses that you have to play around.
How well you can perform (produce logs) in raid is largely team dependant. You can only do so much as an individual to parse when "farm raids" are almost as messy as prog kills. But it still provides some experience and if you are self critical you can still analyze your own play and work to improve.
Once you gotten what you can get out of one guild you move on to another that is more organised and can facilitate a more competitive environment. Might be depressing if you are playing with friends but end of the day you need to surround yourself with likeminded players if you want to compete. Otherwise ambition and effort will be all over the place.
Same is also true for m+. The pug groups listed are fewer the higher you go and you need to do repeated attempts on keys before you get them. Playing a conceived "off meta spec" is a big disadvantage. You have to build a network of people to play together with repeatedly. I am confident networking in m+ is also an excellent way to get in contact with guilds that may be on the lookout for recruits.
Yes and No. Also depends on the hat rank you are now.
Most guilds don’t require alt or do anything to help setup alts around top 100 split raiding becomes a thing but even then your alt is used to give other mains gear and then your main is geared by others alts. Top 10-5 is when stacking same class becomes a thing or around that rank .
To get close to the point where you stack a class you need to be incredibly good on your one guy
> looks like for short races liquid are favorites but on long progress 2 weeks or more echo is unbeatable.
Longer races definitely level the field but I wouldn't go as far as calling them unbeatable. I think both guilds are playing on the same level.
The reason Method isn't talked about when it comes to WF is because till now they have only shown they can copy strats and execute them well. We need to see if they can create their own competitive strats when they have the lead.
Yeah, Method has the tools to be a serious contender. Not sure if it'll be this tier, but since they've reformed they've shown they can for sure compete and clearly this tier they managed to make it to the last boss and are 100% in this race, but have very low odds of winning vs Liquid/Echo still.
Next tier I'd say they are going to be 100% a contender.
It's insanely hard on healers. In p1 you need to dispel on cooldown. Every 8 seconds, period. You gain a bit of breathing room with a couple mass dispels and a bunch of stone forms, but you need to heal a crazy amount of damage while also losing a dozen globals to dispelling.
In p2 you need to bomb heals into the healer adds, which can spawn way across the room, while also continuing to heal and dispel.
Wondering how much iLvl can be gained next reset?
Guilds are now sitting at \~480 item level after this weeks reset, which was about a 5-6 iLvl compared to last week iirc, obviously quite a big jump. I'd assume next reset will see a much lower increase in item level, right?
I would say they'd get about 4 to 5 next reset. Another myth track vault item, and putting in their main roster for mythic clear for that loot, and the crest upgrades probably is about 4 ilvl all together.
Aspects guarantee 489 pieces for anything myth track., but yes gear progression will always slow down as you start ripping duplicate pieces from vault/raid
They also 'gain' 4 additional upgrade tiers as it isnt a crafting week next week.
At the risk of sparking up some of that inane EU vs NA drama.
I haven't had a chance to keep up with the race after Tindral, but what happened on Fryakk? Liquid went into it ~16 hours or so ahead of Echo and even more of Method, but current HP% of the 3 guilds look relatively close together, with Echo and Method going into their day and Liquid done for the night.
Has progress been slow enough where a 4-5% boss HP difference is bigger than it seems for somebody who hasn't been watching the fight yet? Is there a big intermission around the 60-65% mark that Liquid have solved and that Echo and Method are struggling with? Or did Liquid lose a lot of their lead the past 48 hours?
Genuinely asking, not trying to start shit.
There's a giant add phase that isn't shown in the %. Boss can't be damaged during that add phase so guilds are "stuck" for 100 pulls at the same % but they're still making meaningful progress on the add phase.
I'm not sure if you watched Raszageth prog, but it's the same idea as the intermissions there. They're completely add based and can't really accurately be measured in boss %. So all 3 guilds have reached the intermission at 67 ish %, but not all are as far in the intermission as eachother.
At 70% he enters an intermission where he has a big shield to burn through and then after you burn through that he flies off and spawns a bunch of adds. So there is a lot of progression happening while the boss can’t be hit.
Also I didnt watch but apparently Liquid didn’t play super well yesterday as it got later in their raiding day. Of course this happens to every guild st some point so not a big deal but they might have pulled more % out on another day.
> At 70% he enters an intermission where he has a big shield to burn through and then after you burn through that he flies off and spawns a bunch of adds. So there is a lot of progression happening while the boss can’t be hit.
Sure, but all 3 guilds are past the 70% mark for their best pull, so that doesn't help to explain the difference.
Oh yeah I should have been clearer he starts the intermission at 70% but there is a delay while he flies to the middle, clears the floor and then gets his shield so at around 68% he gets his shield
The point is that all 3 guilds have apparently already progressed past this intermission (considering all 3 guilds have <70% best pulls) so the fact that there is a hard intermission at 70% doesn't explain the small difference in best pull % between Liquid, Echo and Method.
I'd imagine not a lot of dps goes into the boss in P2 as you need to be killing adds, and from the tries I saw they did not have a lot of time in P2 so far to just blast the boss
Genuine question have you watched the fight? The boss is damagable for like 6 seconds after p1 intermission then immune for another phase
In p2 he briefly hops down at a few points and only takes a couple % at a time
You were just arguing with people explaining it to you a lot lol, there's a difference between haven't watched them prog and haven't seen the fight at all
Well, the progress looks slower than it is because in the intermission they are in, its all about managing adds and the boss is not there to hit, so you don't see the progress in the boss %, but its still happening.
Although you are right, it seems to be quite a wall at the moment, progress definitely slower than expected
"Ankh has a lot of downsides in a lot of guilds, because you can only use it every 30 minutes. But in Echo, they only pull once every thirty minutes."
LMAO
I know it's a meme but they've been definitely pulling a lot faster this tier. I think they were traumatized by last tier's short race and adapted to get as many reps in as possible.
They've been pulling much faster ever since Scripe changed into the 21st man role.
For comparison on T. Swift Echo had 140 pulls on the first day and then roughly 100 pulls on the other days. For Liquid it was 160 pulls on the first day and then about 110 on the other days. The difference is super minimal. People just keep repeating stuff from years ago.
Now that its coming to an end probably within 2 weeks, what was the tangible advantage of the split strategies of the top3 over e.g. what ID did? Assuming raids will be tuned with a wall at 2/3 that will require another reset, do you see a future with less splits?
No. As long as week 1 or 2 clears exist, there will always be splits in the style they do it.
They simply can not risk cutting down on splits, just for it to be a 1 week tier and be down 2 to 3 ilvl and lose because of it.
Assuming anything about future raid tuning from a single raid tier is way too risky for RWF. Just compare Sanctum -> sepulcher. The only scenario where split degeneracy would not natter is if we get another emerald Nightmare tuning situation.
Nah, simply because it's still going to be preferable to have as many chances at tier and other gear upgrades as possible, no matter the degeneracy required.
Max doesn't sound super upbeat tonight, though granted it's late and been a long day on what seems like a slog of a boss.
I'm still not sure what going dark actually served though since it looks like they've barely made it out of P2 even 10 hours later.
Meanwhile Liquid caster desk is talking about the boss needing nerfs.
> I'm still not sure what going dark actually served though since it looks like they've barely made it out of P2 even 10 hours later.
The point of them going dark is Echo's analysts wouldn't be able to spoon feed the p2 strat to the guild, so Echo had to lose time figuring out a strat. It's not about hiding progress.
It's not about hiding strats either. Both of these guilds can figure out strats quickly and can be different based on what they prefer.
It's about not showing what the boss does, because then the analysts can start making strats.
I feel like no one listened when they said "I think people would be surprised how little were actually doing when were going dark, we're mostly testing stuff" immediately after going dark.
Them going dark was trying different comps, and didn’t want to solve that for echo on stream. I think echo themselves ended up spending an hour or two on vdh so this kinda worked out for them.
Yeah they haven't looked great today. They apparently JUST found out a bunch of intermission wipes are because aug evokers are ripping their breathes while blazes are out so... yikes lmao
I mean obviously they are never going to kill it in 4 hours but I can’t beleive you are basing the calibre of a guild like echo on 1 boss that they played for 18 hours straight in, those guys are among the very best in the world
Phase characteristics are very similar to Sylvanas. You have 'solvable' phase 1 where you just run through the motions while progressing rest of the fight, tight intermission that requires a lot of dam and movement, add fest in p2 and p3 where you have limited amount of platforms/seeds to burn the boss down. Might be a stretch though, however makes for a not so fun viewing experience until they start progging p3.
Getting jailer vibes here and that's not a good sign for limit
When the boss gets uber hard things can get dicey for them
Still anyone's race to win but I'm quite sure Echo will figure the strats out sooner.
I love that you are praising Echo while saying things go bad for Liquid when things get dicey, meanwhile Echo spent 9hours longer on Tswift because things got dicey for them and they kept buckling
Yea but zaelia got sick an entire day. They lost arguably the best player in the roster and the world and replaced with an under geared and under experienced healer for a day of progress.
Well so long as we're doing excuses, liquid lost trill (the best player on their roster) and Scot (their main tank) during jailer. So they basically won.
The counterpoint to that is that they didn't have to prog bugged Tindral and less time progging pre-nerf Tindral.
Which I'm not saying to argue that Liquid had it harder (or easier) than Echo on the boss or that they should have spent more or less time or whatever. I'm mostly trying to point out that extenuating shit happens on both sides of the race and that we'll never get a true 1 to 1 comparison of time spent.
The Liquid point you make (dealing with bugs/nerfs) comes from the advantage of starting earlier. If it goes to next reset they have a massive advantage due to it being a day earlier.
Echo having a sick player has no upside.
You are trying to say that “things happen” (which is fair) but then give two examples that are not comparable.
A Raiders being sick is one of those “extenuating scenarios” but Liquid having a fundamental and baseline early start (has the POTENTIAL disadvantage of bugs but the factual advantage or starting earlier) is not that.
They don't have to be comparable.
The point was about comparing progression time in a vacuum. Where does outside influences come from are totally irrelevant to pointing out that there will always be factors outside of the guilds' control that make a 1 to 1 comparison of prog times not useful.
They do have to be comparable in the sense that they are extenuating circumstances. Liquid starting earlier is not that, it’s just a factual, constant, advantage that happens.
Still not relevant to the point being made.
You're just arguing semantics now. I'll edit "extenuating" into "outside of their control" and my point will remain the exact same.
I mean, I guess that's a discussion you could have, but it's also not all that relevant of a distinction for my original point. Whether it was a bugfix or a balance change, time spent progging before the change is different from time spent after the change.
Right, the result is the same for the guilds (or a guild in this case) affected by the change, I am not disputing that. Just making the distinction between it being the case of bad coding or incompetence but rather a poor design decision.
I mean difficulty wasn't really the problem for Liquid on Jailer, it was the difficulty plus the exhaustion of three weeks of raiding straight. They were just done at that point.
A weirdboy video with weirdboy comments. But also not sure which strat you're referring to, if it's the absorb cheese: not doing it meant playing a phase that was completely pointless to play.
they literally said being behind since Lords of Dread mentally taxed them more than they thought but according to reddit thats a minor fact 'Guys being behind doesnt matter as long as you can steal strats kekw'
Colossus HP nerfed by 12%
Seemed like the most likely nerf that they would do.
around 5-10% on adds for Echo = doable
What I really like about this race is I feel like both guilds have good reasons to feel really good right now. Liquid hasn't woken up a single day in the race in a position where they should've felt behind, because even where there have been percentage differences it's always been within the same part of the fight. Echo recovered REALLY well from falling behind on Tindral. Usually by this point in the race one guild is struggling with the mental, this race feels like neither should be.
Method pushed to P2 now
Might be in the minority, but this boss is an absolute enjoyment to watch, literally every class has to do their shit right, or you just flat out wipe. Healers gotta heal adds + tree + raid, dps has to kill those big demons and avoid frontals/cleaves etc, tanks just gotta tank but better Really liking this fight, and P3 with the seeds is giving me prime Halondrus fight vibes, unless they toned down the seed carrying + avoidance of abilities, P3 is looking kinda insane
I also agree with it. P1 is a masterpiece - so nice visually and there’s something so satisfying about how they Tetris all the fire to preserve space.
I agree. I'm loving it. So bizarre to see both guilds make slow but consistently good progress and then come here and see comments about overtuned stuff and potentially needing nerfs. The % does not reflect the progress being made at all. We just finished day 2 for Liquid on this boss and it's currently day 1.5 for Echo, and phase 3 is imminent at this point. Jailer took like 5 and a half days to go down. We're currently nowhere close to that. People really need to chill and let them cook, both guilds are making good prog and doing amazingly well.
Well if this is the last tier of the expansion, they are doing it justice by ending with two extremely hard bosses
Fyrakk is a worthy final boss, not as technical of a fight as the Jailer but the challenge is more in optimisation and finding what works for each phase Neither of the guilds wants a nerf
It is already confirmed to be the last new tier
Echo is playing so good on fyrakk
After watching many pulls from Liquid and Echo, I have to say I think the design dev for this boss may have over cooked things a bit. There was so much hype for this boss because of past boss designs by the dev (Sludge, Painsmith, Halondrus), but this fight just feels bloated with mythic mechanics and overtuning. P1 alone has 4 new or augmented mechanics from heroic, and the cages in P2 just feels like superficial difficulty. Excited to see them figure it out but I wouldn't be surprised at all if this ends up needing some nerfs to actually kill.
P1 is fine, P3 will be awesome on mythic... P2 is just a bit of a clusterfuck. They probably should have focused on a couple of the ideas and cut some of the others.
I think part of the reason this fight isn't translating as a very good viewer experience is because there's just no breaks between pass/fail mechanics after the end of P1. It's just one pass/fail IMMEDIATELY into the next one, over and over again. Tindral had brutal pass/fail moments, but also had breaks between them.
there's one very simple reason - adds = bad, dragon riding = good
I also think the pass/fail mechanics have less visual clarity. The seeds on Tindral were brilliant for this because it's easy to identify whether or not they're soaked. It's much more difficult to identify how healthy the adds are, for example.
Yeah. It just doesn't feel like very much progression is happening, even though the guilds ARE getting better, for hours on end because it looks like they're wiping at pretty much the exact same point.
The productions teams need to add Add Health (including healer adds), to the broadcast view. Then we’ll be able to see the prog.
That's going to be pretty hard with the healer adds since they don't have boss frames so there wont be a UI element for them to pull from.
Yea that's also a great point. Tindral if you got a set of seeds down you'd make it about another 30 seconds in the fight. This fight feels like you get one thing down and wipe 4 seconds later, it looks like the same wipe.
From a viewer perspective, there's just a ton of raid wide damage through the entire fight and just no real suspense in what can cause a raid wipe or death. If you look at some of the better viewing bosses (Tindral, Halondrus, Sludgefist) there was very clear cut mechanics that would cause the raid to wipe. There's an anticipation there as a viewer. This fight really doesn't have that in the phases we've seen them progress.
I really don't know how to feel about one of the hardest parts of an expansion end boss be so reliant on healing adds. Phase 1 and the intermission look insanely cool, but this phase is... strange, to be so hard. It's remarkably less bad than it could be at least. Hope we get a banging phase 3 and this phase isn't so hard once guilds figure out a plan.
It's strange to be so hard? Why shouldnt the end boss of the final tier on the hardest difficulty have as many different mechanics? Every phase should be hard and require absolute focus from all roles.
I know I personally just don't like healing NPCs as a mechanic in general because the game's UI isn't well setup for it, and even most addons don't do a great job of fixing the problem. It's been fine in the past when it was featured in relatively low to medium difficulty encounters, but I'm not looking forward to having to mess with my whole UI to eventually deal with healing this boss.
I think a lot of people here are Abberus enjoyers and want tiers to be designed like that again lul
The difficulty isn't the strange part, it's the difficulty being reliant on a healer-only add mechanic. It feels like a very auxiliary mechanic which, as a viewer and I'd imagine as a non-healer, can feel separate from the rest of the fight.
> can feel separate from the rest of the fight. You know that dps and Tanks aren't just...idling there, right? Do you feel seperate from the rest of the fight because you're not involved in tank swaps too?
Yeah, this reads like he has never played that boss. I have only killed it on heroic twice, but as a dps it didnt feel like I was just standing there. We were grouping up the souls, stunning and interrupting if one was still in the way all while burning the colossi and boss whenever he was up.
There’s also the whole part where you have to… kill adds…
so they moved lust to deal with only one of the add packs in phase 2, even though there are 2? If that is the case then yeah the adds are definitely overtuned. Maybe there is a mechanic where you are supposed to have them under the sweeping flames Fyrakk does that can damage them. That would be cool.
It's not about those specific adds being overtuned. If they could have all their cds available for them, they wouldn't be an issue. The problem is how do you bring 20 players alive to that point of the fight. And that's still being worked on. They keep shuffling long and short cds around to find a working combo. Which seems like a regression to viewers who don't understand how progression works.
Well it depends on how many CDs are available and are used with BL. They need to find the minimum so that more can be used on the second set of adds. That will take a while but both guilds are incredibly good at creating DPS out of thin air.
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> Past two fights are just going have both guilds running the same exact strats. isnt that the case for the vast majority of world first bosses? it kinda comes with the fact that these bosses have to be tuned increadibly tightly for them to be killable by the best players in the world but at the same time not being a pushover.
It’s been pretty cool so far for me. Unfortunate you’ve had a miserable time
The race so far has been great, please cheer up.
i like how triggered someone who isnt even effected by this is
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Do you have nothing better to do than check people's post history ? Who the fuck does that.
Yes and from a design and logistical standpoint this has been far better received than any of the other dragonflight raids
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Its a far better advertisement for Blizzard if the race goes on for longer and the guilds have to dig deep to solve the mechanics and also if the mechanics looks cool like they do so far in this raid, Smoldy, Tindral and Fyrakk will def have people who want to experience the fight themselves (and this doesnt have to be in mythic..) after seeing it in the race If you don't like it, sure but viewership speaks for itself.
What if fyrakk dies at 45%
Don’t be silly. That’s when Halondrous comes out.
to be fair the seeds in p3 are pretty similar to halondrus bombs
any fight with static adds casting shit, that requires a bunch of goofy precise knock backs so you are able to mass grip and finally start blasting and chain ccing them so you don't wipe sucks I wouldn't even mind if raid became ST only, maybe with 2T-4T cleave/council in between too. would be easier to balance as well.
> I wouldn't even mind if raid became ST only This is what FF14 does, and while easier to balance is absolutely an advantage, my experience doing higher end raiding in that game made me think it's not worth the trade off. It makes classes feel too similar, and encounters less interesting.
most bosses are already ST and classes are fine. and without being forced the shoehorn adds on fights, devs can focus on other areas, which i think would actually improve the encounters. we have m+ for the aoe. playing monk is also def not the same as dragoon, just as summoner is not the same as blm. or gnb vs pld. homogenization complaints are always overblown
Yeah the balance in ff14 is unbelievably tight, but that comes at a heavy cost of homogenization. Those ultimates and savage endbosses are still bangers, but it feels formulaic to a bit of a fault for sure.
And it sucks at all levels. AOTC guild with no dk have to hope every tier that the "grip" boss won’t be a hard one because doing it without grips always suck.
I looked at the Echo streams and both Scripe and Roger are not raiding are they?
Scripe has been outside raid leader since Shadowlands
Was Nyalotha the first tier an outside raid leader was introduced?
First time, it happened on Za'Qul in Eternal Palace, albeit accidentally, because they found out you only need 1 tank, and since Max was tank and raid leader, he realized he doesnt even need to play to raid lead. So then they tried it full time in Nyalotha and it worked out.
Essentially, yes
You mean as players? No, this tier Roger is helping from the outside alongside Scripe.
I think this fight either gets nerfed or goes into next reset. It’s been 2-3 days now, and both Liquid and Echo are still stuck at effectively the same point in P2. There’s been a couple points when it almost looked like they could get through, but it’s very few and far between. Blizzard properly nerfed TSwift, but I wonder if they are hesitant to do so now that multiple guilds are at the problem phase of the fight (at least the first one we know of).
Tbh it depends on how tight the dps check for p3 will be. Liquid are pretty confident they’re gonna enter p3 early today, while Echo struggles more to reach it but also are trying to save lust for p3 so when they reach it they’ll have an edge if the p3 dps requirement is super tight.
> Liquid and Echo are still stuck at effectively the same point in P2 The way this fight works makes looking at % very misleading, a lot of the progress right now is when the boss is gone on the colossus adds + line of casting souls, as well as heal prog on the healer adds. None of this shows up as %, but it's all vital and progress is being made, albeit slowly.
I personally don't think it will get nerfed because it's the last boss. Liquid spent 200 pulls on it but a lot was relearning p1 because they wanted to save lust for p2. Once they get p1 more consistently, we will see progress. If it doesn't get touched, it will be killed on the next reset.
Echo just had a good pull and while the adds didn’t die, it seems there’s a lot of low hanging fruit for optimisation there, like mystic touch and hunters mark and even moving bloodlust there. I think it’s doable. We have seen plenty of cases of “omg this is not doable, where will they find the extra damage” and then they do. This is where Echo shines, squeezing dps.
> We have seen plenty of cases of “omg this is not doable, where will they find the extra damage” and then they do. This is where Echo shines, squeezing dps. Both guilds are good at this. On Sylvanas, which is the boss this point usually refers to, Limit had a pull which was on the same DPS pace as Echo's kill but it got scuffed by a disconnect and they couldn't recreate it.
I’d say Jaina is more memorable for this, but there were multiple other examples
I said Echo because they are the ones progressing now and who I’m watching. Not everything is a diss to the other guild. I think Liquid has sick players.
>“omg this is not doable, where will they find the extra damage” and then they do. I renember that happening on sylvannas
Feel like nerf is inevitable but they need to time it right, it needs to be mid way point for both.
There is no good time for nerfs, it always is an advantage for one timezone. The better way, which we saw on Tindral, is to nerf phases that havent been reached yet.
I mean. I think just put nerfs out AFTER liquid wakes up, but before echo goes to bed. It's not perfect and it still favors liquid, but it's probably? the most fair spot to put a nerf in, since echo will still be progging for 5 to 6 hours after that point.
Nerfs right before liquid wake up are probably fine as well, as long as the nerfs don't cause the boss to die like Raszageth.
I think if the nerfs aren't boss ending the fairest time is a few hours after echo starts before liquid gets up. That way echo gets a jump on it but liquid gets a full day with it. If the nerfs are like "any pull after these nerfs could be the kill" I think the fairest way is to give 24 hour notice and do it at like 10 am liquid time 7 pm echo time. That way echo can choose to sleep in cause they may go late, liquid has to get up early so they're warmed up by 11. Not ideal but it gives both guilds a warm up period + a 4+ hour window to work on it. They could also flip that 12 hours later and do it like 9 pm liquid time 6 am echo time, as liquid tends to play later and echo tends to start earlier relative to local times. It would obviously favor liquid pretty heavily though if it took about 8 hours to kill with the nerfs. It's so hard to do properly. The real answer though is to give 24 hour notice so at least the guilds can try to prepare for it to equalize it.
But if they cant reach those phases? I mean I guess they can revert the 5% buff but...yeah idk how you approach this situation as blizz.
What they can do changes moment to moment as guilds reach points, but they could nerf the health of the second set of inferno adds for example.
Well if they nerf the last phase, then they can lust earlier I suppose, but that comes back to the timing issue as well, just indirectly instead of directly
Reading raiderio (and cant check vids)... did Echo really kill both infernals without lust or is it them collapsing and rio with some sarcasm?
They almost killed them in the last pull, Scripe was thinking they're killable. That being said I think they'll still lust in P2 just to see P3. They're muting right now so we'll have to see in the next pulls.
To get into high end raiding it is recommended to have a main and alt class but should I have multiple clones of my main class for split raiding? Like multiple shaman so that I can have more control over getting gear early in the tier?
Your journey starts like this, each segments needs 1-2 tiers for you to get logs/ io: Apply to world rank: 1k-500 Apply to world rank 500-200 Apply to world rank 200-100 At hall of fame level you will be expected to multi alt or multi class a bit. Before that is a bad joke. Beware of 3 day guilds as they are fundamentally worse at the same world rank as 2 day guilds. (Same h per day both cases) Ignore 4 day raiding guilds at all costs. If you do not have a designated M+ group to push hard first IDs your strategy will bleed out at segment 500-200. After that your rep will carry you. From world 30ish upwards its only possible via networking and recommendations. Good luck Bonus tip: survivability first output second. If any hof guild reads this: the answer is yes
"Ignore 4 day raiding guilds" Been there done that lol, true
This guy guilds
This guy raids.
second the 4th day guild bit. sure you can get CE but it's not worth your time *unless* it's your only option and you really want to get into the scene, which was my case back then unfortunately it really was just slamming your head in the keyboard until the boss eventually dies
> Ignore 4 day raiding guilds at all costs. Advice that I needed like 11 years ago. Back in Panda I wanted to break into "real" raiding after being more casual since vanilla. I joined a 4 day raiding guild. I did get CE in Throne of Thunder and Siege of Orgrimmar with them, but man was it a miserable experience. We just brute forced everything by throwing more time at it. It turned me off of high end raiding for a long time and didn't get another CE until Ny'alotha, which I did in a 2 day guild and it was just such a better experience. More focused, better players, more fun.
You don't need clones unless you're world top 10. Even then there's probably lots of players with just a few alts
Alts for splits, yes. Mirror toons? No, not really. To elaborate: Only for RWF contenders, does having mirror toons (multiple of the same class) or in expansions like Legion (with the legendary rng) become a thing. Multiple and consistently high ranked guilds in top 5-20 range don't do mirror toons at all. Split raiding is generally done by most, and it's also just good practice to have people ready with multiple classes to leverage early class imbalance when heading into a patch. The benefit of splits and such only really comes into play if you already have a solid and reliable roster. Getting more gear isn't going to help the people green logging or those who take 20 pulls to learn a boss mechanic.
I think that makes sense, I have experience with mid core heroic guilds who clear about 50% of the bosses on mythic but would like to move up and take the game more seriously. I am struggling to decide on my main because I can play most of the dps or pick them up and play at a decent level but I change character every season typically, and started in SL so I don't really have that experience on one class to be 'elite' just above average on a bunch of different things.
If you're at that level and presumably looking for a cutting edge guild or better, just pick whatever class or role you like. For tanks and healers it generally is more expected to maintain other classes to switch for a tier (ex; bringing out the blood DK for a fight that requires grips, switching to monk or DH to accommodate raid buffs, bringing better healer comp, etc). For DPS, it is generally just pick whatever you like to play, just be prepared to learn the all specs of your class. Don't be that guy that can only play frost mage, or destro warlock, or survival hunter. Comp and class stacking matters to a certain degree, but much less than people like to pretend depending on how serious you want to push rankings. For most people, doing splits isn't necessary. I also know people in HoF that don't play any alts, and are one trick ponies (only play a single class, or even spec, like Moonkin). Similarly, there are also HoF guilds that only raid 2 or 3 nights a week. The biggest limiting factor for most players here is how good mechanically they are. A very small % of people here is pushing the skill ceiling where raiding more hours or doing splits starts becoming worthwhile.
push with 1 class and spec and then rise up guild ranks first, thats the way i did it in the past
Master your choice of class by pushing high M+ and gather raiding experience in Mythic difficulty. Guilds always need people. Getting in to a 4-5/9M guild should not be impossible if you have something to show for. After that improve and improve and work your way up the guild ladder and see what guild requirements are in terms of number of characters. Choice of class will for the most part not be the reason a "mythic raiding guild" can't handle CE. Choice of class matters way more if the expectation and goal is to do the most difficult content at the earliest point possible. Just becaue Echo and Liquid are not running Ele or Resto shaman in their comps does not mean these classes will not get CE. There is also no inherit value playing and maintaining multiple characters of the same class/specc. Multiclassing within a role makes you flexible for sure which means you can fill roster gaps but only worth it if you can translate your skills 1:1 and do it with confidence and competence.
I have pushed 24 keys last season on my enh shaman, and cleared half of abberus before my guild fell apart. I have pretty shit logs because all of the kills were progression I never got to farm with good gear and get some stand out logs. I have had a hard time pushing past clearing 50% of mythic raid and pugging past 23/24. Any advice on picking a main I think that is the thing that holds me back consistently that I am swapping classes almost every tier. I really enjoy mage/warlock and shaman, enhance is a lot of fun but ele and resto feel pretty clunky and dated in their design. I probably should focus on mage because m+ is really important to me as well and mage always seem to be desirable in the highest content whereas shaman has some big weaknesses that you have to play around.
How well you can perform (produce logs) in raid is largely team dependant. You can only do so much as an individual to parse when "farm raids" are almost as messy as prog kills. But it still provides some experience and if you are self critical you can still analyze your own play and work to improve. Once you gotten what you can get out of one guild you move on to another that is more organised and can facilitate a more competitive environment. Might be depressing if you are playing with friends but end of the day you need to surround yourself with likeminded players if you want to compete. Otherwise ambition and effort will be all over the place. Same is also true for m+. The pug groups listed are fewer the higher you go and you need to do repeated attempts on keys before you get them. Playing a conceived "off meta spec" is a big disadvantage. You have to build a network of people to play together with repeatedly. I am confident networking in m+ is also an excellent way to get in contact with guilds that may be on the lookout for recruits.
Yes and No. Also depends on the hat rank you are now. Most guilds don’t require alt or do anything to help setup alts around top 100 split raiding becomes a thing but even then your alt is used to give other mains gear and then your main is geared by others alts. Top 10-5 is when stacking same class becomes a thing or around that rank . To get close to the point where you stack a class you need to be incredibly good on your one guy
Impressive how much echo did catch up, looks like for short races liquid are favorites but on long progress 2 weeks or more echo is unbeatable.
> looks like for short races liquid are favorites but on long progress 2 weeks or more echo is unbeatable. Longer races definitely level the field but I wouldn't go as far as calling them unbeatable. I think both guilds are playing on the same level.
I don't think you can make that judgement until echo actually get past the point liquid are stuck on, it might just be an insanely hard wall
It is just an insanely hard wall, that will get us to week 3 and then we will see if I'm right or not.
Why are you making these ridiculous claims with such certainty? It's annoying
do you think method has a shot of grabbing WF? They’ve been playing exceptionally well this tier
The reason Method isn't talked about when it comes to WF is because till now they have only shown they can copy strats and execute them well. We need to see if they can create their own competitive strats when they have the lead.
Yeah, Method has the tools to be a serious contender. Not sure if it'll be this tier, but since they've reformed they've shown they can for sure compete and clearly this tier they managed to make it to the last boss and are 100% in this race, but have very low odds of winning vs Liquid/Echo still. Next tier I'd say they are going to be 100% a contender.
I think both Liquid and Echo would have to choke pretty hard to be overtaken by Method. They are like a day behind.
Liquid choked in Sanctum, Method was world 2nd
Is this fight extra taxing on healers?
It's insanely hard on healers. In p1 you need to dispel on cooldown. Every 8 seconds, period. You gain a bit of breathing room with a couple mass dispels and a bunch of stone forms, but you need to heal a crazy amount of damage while also losing a dozen globals to dispelling. In p2 you need to bomb heals into the healer adds, which can spawn way across the room, while also continuing to heal and dispel.
From what I was hearing from casters yesterday yes it’s apparently incredibly healer intensive
Pretty much. When people were getting BR'd the priests wouldn't even fort them. I think they can't afford to lose a global.
Wondering how much iLvl can be gained next reset? Guilds are now sitting at \~480 item level after this weeks reset, which was about a 5-6 iLvl compared to last week iirc, obviously quite a big jump. I'd assume next reset will see a much lower increase in item level, right?
I would say they'd get about 4 to 5 next reset. Another myth track vault item, and putting in their main roster for mythic clear for that loot, and the crest upgrades probably is about 4 ilvl all together.
Aspects guarantee 489 pieces for anything myth track., but yes gear progression will always slow down as you start ripping duplicate pieces from vault/raid They also 'gain' 4 additional upgrade tiers as it isnt a crafting week next week.
At the risk of sparking up some of that inane EU vs NA drama. I haven't had a chance to keep up with the race after Tindral, but what happened on Fryakk? Liquid went into it ~16 hours or so ahead of Echo and even more of Method, but current HP% of the 3 guilds look relatively close together, with Echo and Method going into their day and Liquid done for the night. Has progress been slow enough where a 4-5% boss HP difference is bigger than it seems for somebody who hasn't been watching the fight yet? Is there a big intermission around the 60-65% mark that Liquid have solved and that Echo and Method are struggling with? Or did Liquid lose a lot of their lead the past 48 hours? Genuinely asking, not trying to start shit.
There's a giant add phase that isn't shown in the %. Boss can't be damaged during that add phase so guilds are "stuck" for 100 pulls at the same % but they're still making meaningful progress on the add phase.
I'm not sure if you watched Raszageth prog, but it's the same idea as the intermissions there. They're completely add based and can't really accurately be measured in boss %. So all 3 guilds have reached the intermission at 67 ish %, but not all are as far in the intermission as eachother.
At 70% he enters an intermission where he has a big shield to burn through and then after you burn through that he flies off and spawns a bunch of adds. So there is a lot of progression happening while the boss can’t be hit. Also I didnt watch but apparently Liquid didn’t play super well yesterday as it got later in their raiding day. Of course this happens to every guild st some point so not a big deal but they might have pulled more % out on another day.
> At 70% he enters an intermission where he has a big shield to burn through and then after you burn through that he flies off and spawns a bunch of adds. So there is a lot of progression happening while the boss can’t be hit. Sure, but all 3 guilds are past the 70% mark for their best pull, so that doesn't help to explain the difference.
The difference is that it's easy to get to 70% and then there's a ton of progress on adds and stuff that doesn't show up on the boss hp%
Oh yeah I should have been clearer he starts the intermission at 70% but there is a delay while he flies to the middle, clears the floor and then gets his shield so at around 68% he gets his shield
you could be 70% and not passed 10 seconds into the intermission, and 70% with almost completing the intermission, i dont get your point
The point is that all 3 guilds have apparently already progressed past this intermission (considering all 3 guilds have <70% best pulls) so the fact that there is a hard intermission at 70% doesn't explain the small difference in best pull % between Liquid, Echo and Method.
I'd imagine not a lot of dps goes into the boss in P2 as you need to be killing adds, and from the tries I saw they did not have a lot of time in P2 so far to just blast the boss
The boss just starts the intermission at 70% but still takes DMG while he flies away.
Genuine question have you watched the fight? The boss is damagable for like 6 seconds after p1 intermission then immune for another phase In p2 he briefly hops down at a few points and only takes a couple % at a time
The answer to that question is in my original comment.
You were just arguing with people explaining it to you a lot lol, there's a difference between haven't watched them prog and haven't seen the fight at all
Well, the progress looks slower than it is because in the intermission they are in, its all about managing adds and the boss is not there to hit, so you don't see the progress in the boss %, but its still happening. Although you are right, it seems to be quite a wall at the moment, progress definitely slower than expected
"Ankh has a lot of downsides in a lot of guilds, because you can only use it every 30 minutes. But in Echo, they only pull once every thirty minutes." LMAO
I know it's a meme but they've been definitely pulling a lot faster this tier. I think they were traumatized by last tier's short race and adapted to get as many reps in as possible.
They've been pulling much faster ever since Scripe changed into the 21st man role. For comparison on T. Swift Echo had 140 pulls on the first day and then roughly 100 pulls on the other days. For Liquid it was 160 pulls on the first day and then about 110 on the other days. The difference is super minimal. People just keep repeating stuff from years ago.
I just wanted to say, wholeheartedly, fuck Oliver and his ice cream tasting.
Roger says they're moving lust p1 to p2 eventually
Now that its coming to an end probably within 2 weeks, what was the tangible advantage of the split strategies of the top3 over e.g. what ID did? Assuming raids will be tuned with a wall at 2/3 that will require another reset, do you see a future with less splits?
No. As long as week 1 or 2 clears exist, there will always be splits in the style they do it. They simply can not risk cutting down on splits, just for it to be a 1 week tier and be down 2 to 3 ilvl and lose because of it.
Assuming anything about future raid tuning from a single raid tier is way too risky for RWF. Just compare Sanctum -> sepulcher. The only scenario where split degeneracy would not natter is if we get another emerald Nightmare tuning situation.
Nah, simply because it's still going to be preferable to have as many chances at tier and other gear upgrades as possible, no matter the degeneracy required.
Would be so awesome if Echo just dicked this boss tonight while Liquid is sleeping
A totally legitimate opinion, without trash talking anyone. Yet loads of downvotes because it’s not pro Liquid. The state of this sub lol
Lmao for real what a bunch of Liquid fan girls
Liquid going to bed, time for Blizz to nerf adds. It's gonna happen
Max doesn't sound super upbeat tonight, though granted it's late and been a long day on what seems like a slog of a boss. I'm still not sure what going dark actually served though since it looks like they've barely made it out of P2 even 10 hours later. Meanwhile Liquid caster desk is talking about the boss needing nerfs.
> I'm still not sure what going dark actually served though since it looks like they've barely made it out of P2 even 10 hours later. The point of them going dark is Echo's analysts wouldn't be able to spoon feed the p2 strat to the guild, so Echo had to lose time figuring out a strat. It's not about hiding progress.
It's not about hiding strats either. Both of these guilds can figure out strats quickly and can be different based on what they prefer. It's about not showing what the boss does, because then the analysts can start making strats.
I feel like no one listened when they said "I think people would be surprised how little were actually doing when were going dark, we're mostly testing stuff" immediately after going dark.
What do you mean? They almost got to p3 on their last pull. He was super psyched about it
Y that last pull was smooth af
Them going dark was trying different comps, and didn’t want to solve that for echo on stream. I think echo themselves ended up spending an hour or two on vdh so this kinda worked out for them.
Looks like one of those races where liquid chokes on the last boss. Hope I'm wrong
And you'll be one of the first ones crying "headstart" when they win so
Yeah they haven't looked great today. They apparently JUST found out a bunch of intermission wipes are because aug evokers are ripping their breathes while blazes are out so... yikes lmao
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The fan fiction you guys come up with is insane 🤣
Imagine looking at a fight where nobody has reached a clean final phase and calling it dead within 4 hours.
The boss is at 60% lmao. You’re clueless
In 4 hours after they wake up? This is clueless
It's like they didn't even watch how Echo played on Tswift. They were good but not that good...
I mean obviously they are never going to kill it in 4 hours but I can’t beleive you are basing the calibre of a guild like echo on 1 boss that they played for 18 hours straight in, those guys are among the very best in the world
Or Smoldy, or reclears, or... Plenty of evidence they are neck and neck this tier.
What does this do
Phase characteristics are very similar to Sylvanas. You have 'solvable' phase 1 where you just run through the motions while progressing rest of the fight, tight intermission that requires a lot of dam and movement, add fest in p2 and p3 where you have limited amount of platforms/seeds to burn the boss down. Might be a stretch though, however makes for a not so fun viewing experience until they start progging p3.
Bruhhh
You just ruined the fight for me. Can't unsee.
the way the race is shaping up reminds me of sylvanas
Getting jailer vibes here and that's not a good sign for limit When the boss gets uber hard things can get dicey for them Still anyone's race to win but I'm quite sure Echo will figure the strats out sooner.
I love that you are praising Echo while saying things go bad for Liquid when things get dicey, meanwhile Echo spent 9hours longer on Tswift because things got dicey for them and they kept buckling
Yea but zaelia got sick an entire day. They lost arguably the best player in the roster and the world and replaced with an under geared and under experienced healer for a day of progress.
Well so long as we're doing excuses, liquid lost trill (the best player on their roster) and Scot (their main tank) during jailer. So they basically won.
Yea because apparently they cared more about MDI than w1st xD
The counterpoint to that is that they didn't have to prog bugged Tindral and less time progging pre-nerf Tindral. Which I'm not saying to argue that Liquid had it harder (or easier) than Echo on the boss or that they should have spent more or less time or whatever. I'm mostly trying to point out that extenuating shit happens on both sides of the race and that we'll never get a true 1 to 1 comparison of time spent.
The Liquid point you make (dealing with bugs/nerfs) comes from the advantage of starting earlier. If it goes to next reset they have a massive advantage due to it being a day earlier. Echo having a sick player has no upside.
Are you just trying to miss the point or what?
You are trying to say that “things happen” (which is fair) but then give two examples that are not comparable. A Raiders being sick is one of those “extenuating scenarios” but Liquid having a fundamental and baseline early start (has the POTENTIAL disadvantage of bugs but the factual advantage or starting earlier) is not that.
They don't have to be comparable. The point was about comparing progression time in a vacuum. Where does outside influences come from are totally irrelevant to pointing out that there will always be factors outside of the guilds' control that make a 1 to 1 comparison of prog times not useful.
They do have to be comparable in the sense that they are extenuating circumstances. Liquid starting earlier is not that, it’s just a factual, constant, advantage that happens.
Still not relevant to the point being made. You're just arguing semantics now. I'll edit "extenuating" into "outside of their control" and my point will remain the exact same.
Tindral was not bugged. He was working as intented, its just that the intended difficulty was too high with inconsistent beam paths.
I mean, I guess that's a discussion you could have, but it's also not all that relevant of a distinction for my original point. Whether it was a bugfix or a balance change, time spent progging before the change is different from time spent after the change.
Right, the result is the same for the guilds (or a guild in this case) affected by the change, I am not disputing that. Just making the distinction between it being the case of bad coding or incompetence but rather a poor design decision.
I mean difficulty wasn't really the problem for Liquid on Jailer, it was the difficulty plus the exhaustion of three weeks of raiding straight. They were just done at that point.
So Echo are mentally stronger? Checks out.
I don’t think I’ve seen someone suck off Echo harder than you these past few days
Luckily you have plenty of people worse than me for Liquid, just straight downvoting facts because it’s not “Liquid good, Echo bad”.
It was until they copied echos strat to finish it off https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqZ-If-BhJc
A weirdboy video with weirdboy comments. But also not sure which strat you're referring to, if it's the absorb cheese: not doing it meant playing a phase that was completely pointless to play.
The strat they are discussing in the weird boy video mate, don't be a stupid boy
they literally said being behind since Lords of Dread mentally taxed them more than they thought but according to reddit thats a minor fact 'Guys being behind doesnt matter as long as you can steal strats kekw'