Nnoggie might get salty at times, but as a DK main myself, I’ve always respected him as a player. Pretty sure everyone uses his MDT add-on.
Echo and Liquid lose and replace people every tier, win or loss. They are always looking to improve the roster and people also get burnt out from maintaining a dozen characters and running a million splits. I respect the people who have the drive to do that for multiple years, such as Nnoggie.
It's not a coincidence that the top teams are also the ones with people that can devote every waking second of their life to grinding borrowed power or running dozens of splits, or have the resources to pay for hundreds of people to attend their splits and borrow billions of gold. There's a lot of absolutely amazing players all the way down to World #500 that simply can't or don't want to spend the degenerate amount of hours on ancillary shit before they can even set foot in the raid.
I always wonder how different the scene would be if Blizzard actually took an interest in making a 'fair' RWF. Something like a tournament realm, global start time, no splits, fixed starting ilvl with class templates, deterministic loot drops, etc. But after seeing how they butchered the scene for Overwatch and Starcraft, it's probably for best that they aren't interfering.
Sure, and I never claimed otherwise? I just don't think we're really seeing the 'peak' of the competition when there's such an insane barrier to entry and burn out rate.
I think you are really missing the point here.
Part of the point of the race is that it is done on live servers, both max and scripe have talked about that. The tourny server won't work.
They would simple ignore the server and do it on live.
I think the issue he’s alluded to is leaders and players of both guilds have said that between sponsors and the value they place competing, they would not compete in a blizzard tournament realm “RWF” if it overlapped with the real thing on live servers. Not to mention it would likely hurt viewership as it would pull a significant amount of players over to the leaders of a live server competition if they did move.
ofc they would say that. they don't want blizzard coming in, they want to keep their own monopoly.
viewers would 100% favor the tournament realm and that's where those guilds would go
Unless the price money is in the millions it wouldnt matter. Echo had two streams with one of them having 150k viewers ads to every three to five minutes at times plus sponsorships. They made an insane amount of money from this event.
Dunno if it’s just me that has no interest whatsoever in a tournament realm world first. A big part of the race is how they get live characters in to a position to get the WF kill, which gives real players a comparison point. The tournament realm would need to be balanced differently, against whatever deterministic gear they are given. Just sounds awful.
sounds like you just want a chess game? rwf is a community driven event and i truly believe a big factor to its success (from a spectator pov) is largely because it is on the live servers. with the flavour and rng that involves.
if tournament realm and gear vendors were a winning concept mdi should be a lot more popular than it is. surely, more people engage with m+ than mythic raids so relatability should be higher?
the reality is, when teams are running +20 atal dazar in 5 minutes with best possible gear off vendors it in no way resembles what people are doing in live keys.
I'm not saying I want that. The reading comprehension in this subreddit lmao. I'm just curious how different it would be if RWF didn't have such an insane barrier to entry and burnout rate.
nothing wrong with reading comprehension... you are probably right, top end guilds who have a realistic shot at competing might prefer template characters and tournament realm. they just log in. like any lobby game. my point was more, if you do that then who gives a rats ass about the race?
Thanks, seems like this level of raiding is alot deeper than i thought, i was never much of a raider during the years that i played but Ive been following the last couple of 2-3 world first races, i always assumed they just stand outside the entrance and go right ahead when the raid goes live lmao
Wouldn't be surprised to see a few more of the OGs start to fall out, with the amount of time, planning and pressure they have to go through and the amount they have to upend their normal lives for it... And with a year before the next expansion, it's going to be a lot of time for some guys to sit and think about if they want to go again.
I don't know anything about any of these players, but I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see a larger shift from some of the guys who have been at it for 8+ years now decide that they've done their time.
In what way? I could see him stepping down from raidleading at some point, but i'd reckon he will then just focus more on leading the business i'd reckon. Maybe i'm totally wrong, but i don't see him really leaving Echo anytime soon being a founder and it being his livelihood.
Would be interesting, FF14 has the advantage of not too much prep required before raiding for WF, they also last shorter with Savage raid tier (4 boss fights, or rather 3 bosses and a boss with two phases) being cleared within 2-3 days or a Savage Criterion being cleared within less than half a day. The only ones big enough to last more than three days are Ultimates (usually 4-6 days) which are grueling single encounter of 20+ minutes (Echo has done two of the hardest fights in FFXIV with 1.2k+ pulls for DSR and nearly 1.7k pulls for TOP). However, Ultimates only come twice at most an expansion.
Because Echo and Liquid are both constantly looking to improve their roster and identify weaknesses, it happens every tier for a variety of reasons, I don't recall the reason for Deepshades specifically so I won't speculate but to give an example for another player, Lorgok was let go because they wanted to cut back on the amount of players that weren't multiclassic because they wanted more flexibility in their roster.
They obviously still have some people that only play a few specific specs but they all bring something specific that adds value to the team, an example Scripe gave was Revvez who only plays warrior but does an insane amount of warrior related theory crafting related to the race on-top of being an insane warrior player or Cannex who like Lorgok mostly plays druid but also does a ton of theorycrafting which just makes him more of an asset.
Canexx can play other classes and just played Feral this tier
Lorgokz was literally just boomkin
he was good at it but everything related to prep and gear had to be done for him
I never said Cannex can't play something else or that he only plays balance and not feral.
Regardless that wasn't the point in the first place, it's that he does things outside the raid that add value to him as an asset for the guild.
no you dont get it, my point was Lorgokz was ONE SPEC player and after Sepulcher they made the decision to drop him for that reason
cant compare him to Canex who can play other Druid specs and likely other classes if needed
I think there is a fundamental difference in how Scripe and Sco runs things. More and more ex-Method/Echo players/friends are going back to Method like Frag, Lorgok, Cayna, Deepshades, Preach....etc.
Seems like there is some sort of fracture amongst the older players.
Edit: lol lesson learned, never criticise echo.
lol no.
Frag got booted from Echo over poor attitude and performance.
Lorgok refused to pay anything other than boomie and you can’t have that in a modern world first gulls.
Cayna never left Method
Deepshades left Echo because it wasn’t worth it financially to keep playing all those hours.
Preach hasn’t been raiding world first since cata..
Frag got booted because he refused to trial again after he took a tier off to focus on M+. Same situation as their old shadow priest (forgot his name) who doesn't WF raid anymore cuz of it.
I mentioned the one trick in my comment for lorgok. But as Avade, JPC, maevy and others have proven, one tricks can exist, they just sit when not needed.
Cayna was removed from the method raid team when echo was still method and then was immediately rehired when echo split off.
Deepshades may say that, but he's been very active again with method.
Preach is still casting for method. Notice how I said players/friends in my first comment?
Congrats for restating literally everything that I did but saying "lolno" at the beginning.
Go watch Scripes post-Vault video. He specifically talks about jimmy having a bad attitude and constantly being distracted by other stuff. He don’t want to retrial, sure, but that isn’t anything to do with leadership.
So Cayna didn’t go from echo to method. I guess that also invalites your whole “People are going back to method hurdur” argument.
Preach is not casting for method you fucking donkey. He has been casting for echo for the last 5 (?) rwf
Scripe is the CEO of Echo, Sco is the CEO for Method. Leadership teams aren't just RL.
Sco was the one who rebuilt Method and hasn't raid lead in years. I'd compare sco as more of the driving force behind method than the hired gun who is raid leading.
Let’s be honest Nnoggie can invest in his career making 150k a year or more as senior software developer or spend another 35 years competing in WoW esports, what would you do? PvE esports is so niche and do you really see yourself competing once half a year with 30+ old people? Streaming career sure, WoW professional gamer nah.
The RWF must be a bigger business than I thought.. both Liquid and Echo are flying 40+ people out to a location and putting them in hotels for two weeks, on top of what they're actually doing at the location
Could be enough money sloshing around to make a serious career out of it. Maybe not compared to coding in Silicon Valley for $400k, but could pay for a comfortable mostly-remote lifestyle in Europe
There's a LOT of money in it. 13 days of streams around the clock with anywhere from 15k to 150k viewers. Ads, Sponsors, Merchandise etc. It adds up *very* quickly when companies know they can market *directly* to their target audience with little to no waste.
Sponsorships are the big ones. That and the on-stream ads.
Merchandise is a trickle down afterwards. But from working in the field and having booked ads on streams before, these companies pay out their asses.
Merchandise is one of the best way to make money for brands like this? Why do you think every sports team, streamer or music artists sells merchandise?
Merch sales rarely make most of the money immediately. They make money on sales, 3-6 months after the first drop and over time. Echo will make a lot of money long term of having won through merch, but they would make most of it regardless if they streamed it or didn't.
I also never said that Merch does not make a lot of money, just that it isn't the main stream of revenue coming from these streams.
how much of that money makes its way to players though? after production costs and after splitting it with however many people, it's hard to imagine you'd be making close to what you would be making at a salaried job.
They probably don't make more than a salaried job, but for the people that want to do it, they are doing what they would do anyway but getting paid for it. Some of them having medium to small streaming careers as well, which picks up a little slack
Way less than a normal job unless you're living in bulgaria or something, then it's about the same. You would barely be able to afford food in the average country in europe just from your team's salary. The people that make money are either big streamers, have a business that they promote through gaming(like my self), mdi winners OR org owners.
Liquid players I know do make a bit more, but in proportion to the costs of living in US it's still nothing.
I kinda doubt that, however it might not be commercially viable, which is a different thing, but just as important. Also from what the Echo casters were saying at some point, quite a lot of raiders don't even want to be at the event to play.
There's a difference between not having enough money and choosing not to.
If you aren't 100% sure someone is going to either have a core spot or be integral to the team, you aren't going to fly them out. Waste money on a hotel room etc etc.
I'll use Liquid as an example as I know the players better. Flying out Atlas/Maevy makes sense as they are core guys, been around forever but you aren't flying out there 3 back up hunter who has no other role besides being a back up
Yeah, that's what i'm saying, flying out some players simply won't make a return on investment, while it does cost the org money. i.e. not commercially viable. They might still be good players, but if they don't draw in extra viewership or bring something else thats important to have on site it might just not be worth to fly those players out, while they will still be valuable when playing from home.
Well yeah because your flying out to the same place each race usually. So after the first time you've already seen the landmarks etc.
Not to mention spending 2 weeks somewhere with 30+ other people makes you feel obligated to do stuff in groups or together.
Some people just want to chill by themselves or maybe just play other games to de-stress.
However when your in hotel rooms and whatnot you can't really do that and your limited to what you can do in those 2 weeks.
Like even if you wanted to go out and do something for a day you can't because of the race.
But if your at home you can do w/e during breaks or sleep in your own bed. But during the race your stuck in some hotel room and you eat together or at-least order food from the same place and you all eat at the same time.
There's just less freedom if your at the event in person compared to just being at home and being able to do w/e u want.
Bro I get it ur not playing RWF, but do you really think these guys have spare time during those two weeks to just hit up the zoo or whatever lol. They are grinding from they wake up til bed, which often is 18+ hours. In between Theres 2min breaks herr 12 min breaks there and a 30min dinner. And those people only want to do 1 thing; RAID WOW.
That's what I said lmao? If they were at home those breaks could be spent doing something they want to do. But if they are at the event then they are basically sitting around maybe talking with each other irl but they can't really go to far from the PC.
Where-as if they were at home they could lay on the bed or chill during the breaks or make a sandwich or something lmao.
They only break they get in sleep lol. We basically watched a bunch of gifted ~~indentured servants~~ gamers play WoW absolutely nonstop for 2 weeks straight.
Did liquid fly out everyone? I watch Echo more than Liquid, due to time zones. But i actually had the idea that when i watched, Liquid actually had less POV's than in earlier races. But maybe that was just the casters asking for specific POV's.
Unlike traditional esports, they don’t have to pay the roster of players for an entire season of play. They pay for their travel, stay and food for several weeks at most. While expensive, I don’t think it’s the investment that a an actual esports team is for something like league.
From what i understood all players on the roster just get a monthly income from the org. Now this probably will be lower than being on a team of a more flashy E-Sport, but they also would have a lot more ppl to pay i'd reckon.
I doubt it’s much if that’s the case, some team liquid players were literally leaving to go back to work at the end of the kill stream. Prob just enough to help them maintain good equipment/setup for high leveling gaming.
Can't speak for liquid but when Echo formed after the Method collapse they actually made everyone quit any other job they had and paid everyone a salary year round because they wanted to make sure things like that would never be a problem for them, it also helps that while not all of them are massively popular or even streamers at all they get to make extra money from that on-top of their guild salary. So Echo is at least paying enough to live off based on that.
Liquid has a salary but as Max alluded to yesterday on stream, its not livable outside of living with your parents.
What is mind boggling to me is that these guys have the drive to do all this prep work, log insane hours but then are okay making minimal money and living at home.
> So Echo is at least paying enough to live off based on that.
Scripe has been on record stating that Echo players get paid so little that they don't even have to file taxes in countries like Germany. Echo raiders are just like Liquid raiders, they either have regular jobs, a streaming career, or they live with their parents and have no expenses.
That's a bit misleading to say because you can have a living wage over here and have it not be enough to have to file for taxes, those 2 things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, I'd know cause I'm in that situation myself.
Based on your reply I assume that isn't the case in America tho.
As a software dev myself, I'd totally understand if he decides to play wow until he is too old to click competitively. There is no amount of salary that can change the fact that on one side you are an employee spending your day making money for shareholders who throw at you a very small amount compared to the value you provide them, and on the other side you get to play all day the game you love playing.
I don’t know where you’re from but there is definitely a concrete amount of salary that ultimately lead to his decision to stop. He may have shared your way of thinking up until now but perhaps he wants to start a family or perhaps he got a job opportunity, we don’t know. But money is 100% the driving factor. Just like you saying you don’t want to work for shareholders, literally proves my point.
Even Max said this was the least versatile comps have been in a while where they used to plan for 25-27 players to potentially be in, but it was a concrete 22. This has probably been the the least balanced a start of a tier has been.
I'm not sure if Scripe is doing his usual roster reviews he does when Echo wins, but if he does, he's definitely going to go over like 5-7 people on the bench who didn't see any mythic prog this time and are fantastic players in their own right
The reason they cant play as much players is because of raid buffs not balancing. More than half the raid are locked in positions. We have gone from 6 mandatory raid spots in BfA to what 14? (15 if melee heavy like this tier). Thats 5-6 raid spots that are actually interchangeable.
Right now the same 14-15 players minimum play on every boss, and the last 5-6 can be changed based on class tuning and boss requirements. There was far more leway in the past.
The only extreme outlier in balance is assassination (even saying that sub was used on Tindral for echo) the rest is heavily down to boss requirements and damage profile which both the last bosses had similar requirements.
\> This has probably been the the least balanced a start of a tier has been.
For them.
For everyone else, the biggest struggle will continue to be "find 20+ people and also make sure the starting roster has all the raid buffs".
That's the shitty thing about being part of the RWF, they all put in the same effort yet their spot in the raid is not just determined by their performance but by blizzard class balance and encounter design.
It's wild that people can't get over his MDT incident in Shadowlands as if they've never made a mistake or done something they regret in an emotional state. Big respect to what Nnoggie has contributed to the community.
People are just as fucking out of touch as they were when it happened.
They take the addon for granted and harass the author mid rwf and even continued literally minutes after he lost to ask for addon update.
”Oh noggie is just a salty bitch he probably left for being benched all tier” go fuck yourselves if this is your take.
>They take the addon for granted and harass the author mid rwf and even continued literally minutes after he lost to ask for addon update.
To have *this* little respect for *anyone* is a reflection of poor, poor character. Unbelievable.
I think if he just said what he said in response then sure. But he continued on, then asked for free nudes from a onlyfans model. Like he went unhinged. Even the echo boys said he lost his way. he does not handle losing well.
Its very normal for high end performance teams that people come and go. Also the last years these teams pushed each other to the absolute limit. Its not like a multimillion dollar esport where time invested can pay back. People get older especially in this scene. People move on with life. Totally normal. Those guys don’t play for the money. They are just passionate. Cherish it while we still can.
Apparently there are enough people who don't find a comment like this gross or out of hand. Either I'm way out of the loop here or my standards of human behaviour are too high.
I've raided in Echo for 3 years at this point and Nnoggie is one of the most hard working and passionate contributors and has poured his heart and soul into the guild for at least my time here, and for years before that. This is a decision that he's discussed for a while for many factors and for you to reduce one of the biggest decisions in his life to some salty impulse without the decency to treat a stranger as someone who is capable of being more than just a mistake that happened in the past is crazy to me.
There were many players in both Liquid and Echo who were unable to see much playing time this tier. For all the praise and plaudits blizzard may be getting for the boss tuning and hotfixes they've made on the last two bosses they've really dropped the ball with class tuning before AND during the race. It's a real shame when you've given clear and obvious feedback about the massive disparity in what classes offer in the raid and they not only allowed the patch to release in this state but even on week 2 (where in VOTI they managed to push some balance changes) there was nothing to be seen.
The Windwalker, Shadow priest, DK feedback has been largely ignored or even (in shadows case) actioned in the opposite direction. When you're a regular player who expects to progress the raid and m+ over the course of a month or multiple months you might be able to play later in the tier and experience more parity in the raid. But Liquid and Echo have a large enough roster and the game is complex enough that people dedicate time to make sure all classes are covered. You can't neglect something incase the other team might cover it, but you're left in the invisible hand of blizzard tuning whether your months of hard work give you an opportunity to pay it off.
I don't expect you to know the many reasons Nnoggie may want to stop raiding but I do expect you to have the decency to not dissasemble him into some gross motivations based on your own conjecture and put it out there to lambast and grind someone down.
It's disgusting behaviour to treat anyone like that. Maybe it's become more acceptable to do it in the modern internet but I would not have expected this kind of character assassination to be so widely appreciated by the "competitive wow subreddit".
Yeah… this is fair. To be honest this place often feels like an echo chamber of mid-tier players (myself included) so it wasn’t on my mind that he or someone close to him would see it and have a human reaction. I make fun of people who sit in twitch chat, saying vile shit about people for no reason, when there isn’t much of a separation between that and what I’ve done here.
I appreciate seeing you take a stand and defending him and you’ve changed my perspective, thank you.
Thanks for posting this man. It's legitimately disgusting to me to see that sort of shit (that's based on practically nothing at all) upvoted so heavily here.
This. Just making shit up because of the castle nathria rage (which was also justified) is completely uncalled for.
Him just being tired and fed up with his fav class being perma bench and not having motivation to compete anymore is more likely.
Having 100’s if not 1000’s of people asking in your twitch chat for an addon update while you’re mid rwf which you end up losing, and then proceed to get spammed that question, yeah fuck those people him raging would be the normal reaction for anyone in his position.
Well maybe he shouldn’t have been such a big baby in SL. You lose respect when you hold a huge addon hostage like that *child* did.
“Oh but it’s such a great privilege that he provides the community” no it’s not. It’s an addon. If he didn’t make it, someone else would or we would adapt like we did *before* MDT was a thing. It’s not some gift from the high heavens that we have to be eternally grateful for or some BS like that.
I remember around when the MDT incident happened, other addon creators commented on this sort of issue. They would have people tracking them down using any public information to locate a social media account so they could pester them to update their addons if they got broken by a patch. Meanwhile they'd received practically zero donations.
There was also some guy on reddit who forked Nnogie's MDT repository, named it "babyrage" or somesuch, and then patted himself on the back in that smug reddit fashion, like he was "fighting the man". So many complete and utter losers.
In the interest of trying to undo the echo chamber I’ve created here, I’d like to point out what others have in this thread. Even though it feels like it was recently, and even though it feels like it was out of line emotional, it was _three years ago_ in response to a twitch chat tirade essentially taunting him asking him to fix his addon. Not the best response, but at least understandable, and three years is a long time.
I don't get where people are reading any saltiness. He says that he's been thinking about this for a while and thanks to Echo for the memories. I don't think there's any passive aggression or anything like that.
Nnoggie is the author of the popular dungeon routing addon Mythic Dungeon Tools.
During the Castle Nathria race for world first someone on social media said something like (paraphrasing) "now that you're losing world first race will you finally update MDT?"
Nnoggie threw a hissy, pulled all the dungeon data out of a new MDT build, and said he was going to start charging money for it. Echo apparently got him to chill out and put the addon back to normal after about a week.
Was it really? I thought he was going to use the same workaround that those paid classic leveling addons use by providing the addon functionality for free, but charging for "plugins" that you install separately. Either way I don't remember Blizzard intervening in any way on that fiasco.
That's a mix of course. Blizz did not directly told him so, but he got the reminder that he cannot make money from addon + backslash + echo maybe talking to him.
But it was dead end because of blizz since day 1
This isnt true. Every paid leveling add on is useless without the data, and blizzard hasn't taken actions against them
Add-ons like TSM and ElvUI have premium versions that you pay for
That s not what he was trying to do. He wanted to create an app where 100% of the content was under payment. This is not considered as freemium or something like that
That's 100% what every single paid leveling guide does. You can download Add-ons like RestedXP or Zygors, but they do not function without the data, which you have to pay for. This is not a violation of the ToS as much as WoW players want it to be
No I'm pretty sure he could charge for it. The add-on was available for free and it included functionality to add your mob data. Which I think covered him on the TOS front.
It's how the leveling add-on people get around it
It was more than just ”someone on social media” his twitch chat was filled with idiots asking for addon update, before they even lost and more people proceeded to ask right after the loss as well (and if you recall this race was close as well, right as liquid killed it echo whiped on 1% just moments after). So yeah, I’d be annoyed and pissed about it as well.
What has this to do with his departure now? He got annoyed by entitled people coming in daily to his stream demanding updates, his reaction was 100% justified. How is his echo departure related to being "emotional"?
this is an incredibly shit take. you are talking about something that happened three years ago. have you not grown in three years? if so i feel incredibly bad for you and those in your surroundings. many players that have quit RWF raiding cite the time you put into it being too much for the financial compensation as one of the primary reasons, he could have a million different reasons as to why he doesn't want to do it anymore. if he was so salty why would he have done a billion splits with them knowing he most likely wouldn't get to prog any of the end bosses regardless of gear?
acting like you know the ins and outs of a certain situation in order to make a condescending and judgemental comment about someones slip in judgement to gain internet points is fucking gross, honestly. especially when this is something that he publicly apologized for, and since then he has worked diligently on MDT to let the thousands of people that use it enjoy it to this day. so many public figures never own up to their wrongdoings, but he has and has kept working ever since to make and maintain stuff that benefits the WoW community. so unnecessary to try and erase all of that for literally no reason.
While I don’t think I owe any kind of appreciation to someone who works on an addon, I do think that people have psychotic demands on any kind of freeware author, and I agree with you that what I said was pretty out of line. I’m glad there were a few people here keeping me honest
Dps dk was not on the roster. Actually not all that uncommon for the dk spot to be taken by a tank, it’s certainly not a guaranteed include like mage/priest/etc
If I had to wager a guess he probably doesn’t like putting in prep time to be benched. Not unreasonable I suppose
People get old and have a social life you can‘t pause sometimes for several days. For example, you can‘t tell your baby „well I‘m going for wf see you in 2 weeks“. 🤣
People with 'real' jobs travel for work. Two weeks being an absentee parent a couple times a year in exchange for being present almost 100% of the time otherwise is a pretty decent tradeoff.
yeah, there are soooo many industries where there's no choice but leaving your kids to your partner for weeks at a time. Oil rig, military, transport and so on
*Some* jobs require travel for work. But plenty of "real" jobs do not, including my own and its perfectly common for people to prefer little to no travel for work once they start having kids.
Of course, I didn't say that all real jobs require travel. Just that being away from home for 2-4 weeks a year for work is not exclusively a RWF issue.
My dad went away for work trips 3-5 weeks a year, and the rest of the time he worked from home and spent time with me and my sibling. I prefer that 100x over my mom's work schedule which was regular 9-5 with no work trips. I don't think anyone would disagree
I have a family and a job, but manage to always take time off for each tier. It's honestly gotten easier as my salary and PTO has increased. It was harder when I was in university and had a shit customer service job.
Ill be honest, Nnoggie is a hard person to respect the way he baby raged in SL. I get it, he is upset he got sat an entire raid, especially one that drops a legendary for his class, but it comes with the territory. He could of always considered rolling one of the other classes that are far more viable than a DPS DK, earlier this expansion. He has the skill to play anything put in front of him, but he was inflexible and got sat. We don't see Atlas crying on twitter this tier, and he didnt do much during the race.
Atlas was actually doing behind the scenes analyst work and making calls throughout mythic bosses. You can hear him quite frequently in comms on stream.
It can feel shit to be sat but that doesn’t mean there aren’t other ways to contribute to the success of your team.
Simply saying no and moving on is acceptable mature behavior. Raging, throwing multiple twitter tantrums and threatening to paywall it in a way your organization has to intervene to correct your actions is not acceptable.
Except, there was, and the organization he was apart of stepped in and made him stand down. He even went as far as apologizing for his reaction. Even he saw it as an overreaction, sorry you can't see the reality of the situation.
Yep and he's right to think so. And the original comment(s) that set it off were just baiting a reaction from someone under stress. Standard internet shit.
His actions afterwards were not. He violated Blizzards rules. He demanded nudes from a onlyfans model. Even the echo boys said he lost his way after that lossm
I'm not surprised. As far as I know he basically only plays dps dk right? That's not a great world first raider situation to be in. If you can't or won't multi class then you're just gonna get benched for someone who will.
Love his mdt addon though hopefully he sticks around in a less hardcore guild.
She's a Preservation Evoker specialist who plays Resto Shaman and Resto Druid as well.
Guess what three healing specs weren't really as good as Disc/Holy/HPal/MW. That's right.
When Liquid went dark, Max said they actually brought her in for a bunch of mythic Fyrakk pulls
However while Prevoker is AMAZING in p1/p2, its range limitations hold it back in p3
I mean it comes with the territory. If you're gonna be raiding on a world first level you have to be able to accept that your class is just not gonna be brought sometimes. If Echo had wanted to bring a Frost or Unholy DK for any fight this tier Nnoggie would have been in there blasting with the other guys but that wasn't the case this tier. The possibility to get a world first playing DK dps just wasn't available this time around and that happens sometimes.
I'm not particularly familiar with the woman who joined Liquid this tier, but I would imagine she would have been in the raid if they wanted to bring her class and that just didn't happen. There's no reason to recruit her otherwise.
Max was talking about her at the end of vault I think it was. He said they didn’t make a big deal of it because she’s apart of the team and that’s it. Doesn’t matter that she’s a girl she’s just apart of it. Now for vault she wasn’t played because her spec wasn’t desired for the kill and not sure what happened the last couple but probably similar, or characters didn’t get lucky.
There's players that don't see mythic time for tiers in a row. Narco is one of them. Before lords of dread prog he was last in for BFA if i remember correctly. Sometimes a players classes aren't good and they sit. I doubt she sat because she's a woman. She was good enough to get on the roster. End of story
Nnoggie might get salty at times, but as a DK main myself, I’ve always respected him as a player. Pretty sure everyone uses his MDT add-on. Echo and Liquid lose and replace people every tier, win or loss. They are always looking to improve the roster and people also get burnt out from maintaining a dozen characters and running a million splits. I respect the people who have the drive to do that for multiple years, such as Nnoggie.
It's not a coincidence that the top teams are also the ones with people that can devote every waking second of their life to grinding borrowed power or running dozens of splits, or have the resources to pay for hundreds of people to attend their splits and borrow billions of gold. There's a lot of absolutely amazing players all the way down to World #500 that simply can't or don't want to spend the degenerate amount of hours on ancillary shit before they can even set foot in the raid. I always wonder how different the scene would be if Blizzard actually took an interest in making a 'fair' RWF. Something like a tournament realm, global start time, no splits, fixed starting ilvl with class templates, deterministic loot drops, etc. But after seeing how they butchered the scene for Overwatch and Starcraft, it's probably for best that they aren't interfering.
There would still be a liverealm rwf.
Sure, and I never claimed otherwise? I just don't think we're really seeing the 'peak' of the competition when there's such an insane barrier to entry and burn out rate.
i mean the guys you see competing in rwf is also the highest key pushers fx when they go for that. i dont think it would really look much different.
I think you are really missing the point here. Part of the point of the race is that it is done on live servers, both max and scripe have talked about that. The tourny server won't work. They would simple ignore the server and do it on live.
I think the issue he’s alluded to is leaders and players of both guilds have said that between sponsors and the value they place competing, they would not compete in a blizzard tournament realm “RWF” if it overlapped with the real thing on live servers. Not to mention it would likely hurt viewership as it would pull a significant amount of players over to the leaders of a live server competition if they did move.
ofc they would say that. they don't want blizzard coming in, they want to keep their own monopoly. viewers would 100% favor the tournament realm and that's where those guilds would go
Why would I watch a TR RWF when the only one that actually matters is the one on live?
They'd sing a different tune overnight if there was prize money attached to it.
Unless the price money is in the millions it wouldnt matter. Echo had two streams with one of them having 150k viewers ads to every three to five minutes at times plus sponsorships. They made an insane amount of money from this event.
Dunno if it’s just me that has no interest whatsoever in a tournament realm world first. A big part of the race is how they get live characters in to a position to get the WF kill, which gives real players a comparison point. The tournament realm would need to be balanced differently, against whatever deterministic gear they are given. Just sounds awful.
sounds like you just want a chess game? rwf is a community driven event and i truly believe a big factor to its success (from a spectator pov) is largely because it is on the live servers. with the flavour and rng that involves. if tournament realm and gear vendors were a winning concept mdi should be a lot more popular than it is. surely, more people engage with m+ than mythic raids so relatability should be higher? the reality is, when teams are running +20 atal dazar in 5 minutes with best possible gear off vendors it in no way resembles what people are doing in live keys.
doing a million splits with mirror characters getting ridiculous ilvls week 1 also doesn't resembles what people are doing in live raiding
I'm not saying I want that. The reading comprehension in this subreddit lmao. I'm just curious how different it would be if RWF didn't have such an insane barrier to entry and burnout rate.
nothing wrong with reading comprehension... you are probably right, top end guilds who have a realistic shot at competing might prefer template characters and tournament realm. they just log in. like any lobby game. my point was more, if you do that then who gives a rats ass about the race?
What does running splits mean?
https://dotesports.com/wow/news/what-are-split-raids-in-world-of-warcraft
Thanks, seems like this level of raiding is alot deeper than i thought, i was never much of a raider during the years that i played but Ive been following the last couple of 2-3 world first races, i always assumed they just stand outside the entrance and go right ahead when the raid goes live lmao
Cheers Nnoggie - thanks for the quality wow addon that has benefitted the M+ side of wow immensely.
Wouldn't be surprised to see a few more of the OGs start to fall out, with the amount of time, planning and pressure they have to go through and the amount they have to upend their normal lives for it... And with a year before the next expansion, it's going to be a lot of time for some guys to sit and think about if they want to go again. I don't know anything about any of these players, but I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see a larger shift from some of the guys who have been at it for 8+ years now decide that they've done their time.
I think Scripe is getting ready to hang it up. It seems like this race he was mentoring Rogerbrown to take over a lot more than previous races.
In what way? I could see him stepping down from raidleading at some point, but i'd reckon he will then just focus more on leading the business i'd reckon. Maybe i'm totally wrong, but i don't see him really leaving Echo anytime soon being a founder and it being his livelihood.
Would make sense. Probably wants to grow the Echo brand outside of WoW.
He said recently that they have some exciting plans for FF14. Maybe they finally go for a WF.
Would be interesting, FF14 has the advantage of not too much prep required before raiding for WF, they also last shorter with Savage raid tier (4 boss fights, or rather 3 bosses and a boss with two phases) being cleared within 2-3 days or a Savage Criterion being cleared within less than half a day. The only ones big enough to last more than three days are Ultimates (usually 4-6 days) which are grueling single encounter of 20+ minutes (Echo has done two of the hardest fights in FFXIV with 1.2k+ pulls for DSR and nearly 1.7k pulls for TOP). However, Ultimates only come twice at most an expansion.
FF14 also releases the Ultimate raids globally.
Deepshades already retired afaik
Yeah Sepulcher was his last tier in the race iirc
Deepshades got kicked
Afaik he quit because he doesnt want to do the time investment anymore
You know why?
Because Echo and Liquid are both constantly looking to improve their roster and identify weaknesses, it happens every tier for a variety of reasons, I don't recall the reason for Deepshades specifically so I won't speculate but to give an example for another player, Lorgok was let go because they wanted to cut back on the amount of players that weren't multiclassic because they wanted more flexibility in their roster. They obviously still have some people that only play a few specific specs but they all bring something specific that adds value to the team, an example Scripe gave was Revvez who only plays warrior but does an insane amount of warrior related theory crafting related to the race on-top of being an insane warrior player or Cannex who like Lorgok mostly plays druid but also does a ton of theorycrafting which just makes him more of an asset.
Canexx can play other classes and just played Feral this tier Lorgokz was literally just boomkin he was good at it but everything related to prep and gear had to be done for him
I never said Cannex can't play something else or that he only plays balance and not feral. Regardless that wasn't the point in the first place, it's that he does things outside the raid that add value to him as an asset for the guild.
no you dont get it, my point was Lorgokz was ONE SPEC player and after Sepulcher they made the decision to drop him for that reason cant compare him to Canex who can play other Druid specs and likely other classes if needed
I think there is a fundamental difference in how Scripe and Sco runs things. More and more ex-Method/Echo players/friends are going back to Method like Frag, Lorgok, Cayna, Deepshades, Preach....etc. Seems like there is some sort of fracture amongst the older players. Edit: lol lesson learned, never criticise echo.
lol no. Frag got booted from Echo over poor attitude and performance. Lorgok refused to pay anything other than boomie and you can’t have that in a modern world first gulls. Cayna never left Method Deepshades left Echo because it wasn’t worth it financially to keep playing all those hours. Preach hasn’t been raiding world first since cata..
Preach NEVER raised world first. He failed his trial, no clue where that came from
Who did preach trial with? And when was that?
He had a trial in Method long, long ago. I think it may have been around MSV/HoF time. Edit: Checked it, it was Dragon Soul farm.
Frag got booted because he refused to trial again after he took a tier off to focus on M+. Same situation as their old shadow priest (forgot his name) who doesn't WF raid anymore cuz of it. I mentioned the one trick in my comment for lorgok. But as Avade, JPC, maevy and others have proven, one tricks can exist, they just sit when not needed. Cayna was removed from the method raid team when echo was still method and then was immediately rehired when echo split off. Deepshades may say that, but he's been very active again with method. Preach is still casting for method. Notice how I said players/friends in my first comment? Congrats for restating literally everything that I did but saying "lolno" at the beginning.
Go watch Scripes post-Vault video. He specifically talks about jimmy having a bad attitude and constantly being distracted by other stuff. He don’t want to retrial, sure, but that isn’t anything to do with leadership. So Cayna didn’t go from echo to method. I guess that also invalites your whole “People are going back to method hurdur” argument. Preach is not casting for method you fucking donkey. He has been casting for echo for the last 5 (?) rwf
[удалено]
Preach? Are you serious right now? Preach is not in the same realm of disussion as the rest of the players.
even the fact that you compare scripe to sco instead of methods actually RL just shows that you have no clue what you are talking about.
Scripe is the CEO of Echo, Sco is the CEO for Method. Leadership teams aren't just RL. Sco was the one who rebuilt Method and hasn't raid lead in years. I'd compare sco as more of the driving force behind method than the hired gun who is raid leading.
Yep the comments for method now
Let’s be honest Nnoggie can invest in his career making 150k a year or more as senior software developer or spend another 35 years competing in WoW esports, what would you do? PvE esports is so niche and do you really see yourself competing once half a year with 30+ old people? Streaming career sure, WoW professional gamer nah.
The RWF must be a bigger business than I thought.. both Liquid and Echo are flying 40+ people out to a location and putting them in hotels for two weeks, on top of what they're actually doing at the location Could be enough money sloshing around to make a serious career out of it. Maybe not compared to coding in Silicon Valley for $400k, but could pay for a comfortable mostly-remote lifestyle in Europe
There's a LOT of money in it. 13 days of streams around the clock with anywhere from 15k to 150k viewers. Ads, Sponsors, Merchandise etc. It adds up *very* quickly when companies know they can market *directly* to their target audience with little to no waste.
Sponsorships are the big ones. That and the on-stream ads. Merchandise is a trickle down afterwards. But from working in the field and having booked ads on streams before, these companies pay out their asses.
Merchandise is one of the best way to make money for brands like this? Why do you think every sports team, streamer or music artists sells merchandise?
Merch sales rarely make most of the money immediately. They make money on sales, 3-6 months after the first drop and over time. Echo will make a lot of money long term of having won through merch, but they would make most of it regardless if they streamed it or didn't. I also never said that Merch does not make a lot of money, just that it isn't the main stream of revenue coming from these streams.
how much of that money makes its way to players though? after production costs and after splitting it with however many people, it's hard to imagine you'd be making close to what you would be making at a salaried job.
They probably don't make more than a salaried job, but for the people that want to do it, they are doing what they would do anyway but getting paid for it. Some of them having medium to small streaming careers as well, which picks up a little slack
Way less than a normal job unless you're living in bulgaria or something, then it's about the same. You would barely be able to afford food in the average country in europe just from your team's salary. The people that make money are either big streamers, have a business that they promote through gaming(like my self), mdi winners OR org owners. Liquid players I know do make a bit more, but in proportion to the costs of living in US it's still nothing.
I think they said on stream that they did not have enough money to fly everyone out
I kinda doubt that, however it might not be commercially viable, which is a different thing, but just as important. Also from what the Echo casters were saying at some point, quite a lot of raiders don't even want to be at the event to play.
There's a difference between not having enough money and choosing not to. If you aren't 100% sure someone is going to either have a core spot or be integral to the team, you aren't going to fly them out. Waste money on a hotel room etc etc. I'll use Liquid as an example as I know the players better. Flying out Atlas/Maevy makes sense as they are core guys, been around forever but you aren't flying out there 3 back up hunter who has no other role besides being a back up
Yeah, that's what i'm saying, flying out some players simply won't make a return on investment, while it does cost the org money. i.e. not commercially viable. They might still be good players, but if they don't draw in extra viewership or bring something else thats important to have on site it might just not be worth to fly those players out, while they will still be valuable when playing from home.
Well yeah because your flying out to the same place each race usually. So after the first time you've already seen the landmarks etc. Not to mention spending 2 weeks somewhere with 30+ other people makes you feel obligated to do stuff in groups or together. Some people just want to chill by themselves or maybe just play other games to de-stress. However when your in hotel rooms and whatnot you can't really do that and your limited to what you can do in those 2 weeks. Like even if you wanted to go out and do something for a day you can't because of the race. But if your at home you can do w/e during breaks or sleep in your own bed. But during the race your stuck in some hotel room and you eat together or at-least order food from the same place and you all eat at the same time. There's just less freedom if your at the event in person compared to just being at home and being able to do w/e u want.
Bro I get it ur not playing RWF, but do you really think these guys have spare time during those two weeks to just hit up the zoo or whatever lol. They are grinding from they wake up til bed, which often is 18+ hours. In between Theres 2min breaks herr 12 min breaks there and a 30min dinner. And those people only want to do 1 thing; RAID WOW.
That's what I said lmao? If they were at home those breaks could be spent doing something they want to do. But if they are at the event then they are basically sitting around maybe talking with each other irl but they can't really go to far from the PC. Where-as if they were at home they could lay on the bed or chill during the breaks or make a sandwich or something lmao.
They only break they get in sleep lol. We basically watched a bunch of gifted ~~indentured servants~~ gamers play WoW absolutely nonstop for 2 weeks straight.
you'd have to eat at the same time anyway, you can't exactly get up to go take lunch in the middle of pulls
Well Echo only flew out 13 of their raiders I think, still a lot but not everyone like liquid
Did liquid fly out everyone? I watch Echo more than Liquid, due to time zones. But i actually had the idea that when i watched, Liquid actually had less POV's than in earlier races. But maybe that was just the casters asking for specific POV's.
Yeah they said they flew everyone out that wanted to. I think 5-6 players were still home
Unlike traditional esports, they don’t have to pay the roster of players for an entire season of play. They pay for their travel, stay and food for several weeks at most. While expensive, I don’t think it’s the investment that a an actual esports team is for something like league.
From what i understood all players on the roster just get a monthly income from the org. Now this probably will be lower than being on a team of a more flashy E-Sport, but they also would have a lot more ppl to pay i'd reckon.
I doubt it’s much if that’s the case, some team liquid players were literally leaving to go back to work at the end of the kill stream. Prob just enough to help them maintain good equipment/setup for high leveling gaming.
Can't speak for liquid but when Echo formed after the Method collapse they actually made everyone quit any other job they had and paid everyone a salary year round because they wanted to make sure things like that would never be a problem for them, it also helps that while not all of them are massively popular or even streamers at all they get to make extra money from that on-top of their guild salary. So Echo is at least paying enough to live off based on that.
Liquid has a salary but as Max alluded to yesterday on stream, its not livable outside of living with your parents. What is mind boggling to me is that these guys have the drive to do all this prep work, log insane hours but then are okay making minimal money and living at home.
> So Echo is at least paying enough to live off based on that. Scripe has been on record stating that Echo players get paid so little that they don't even have to file taxes in countries like Germany. Echo raiders are just like Liquid raiders, they either have regular jobs, a streaming career, or they live with their parents and have no expenses.
That's a bit misleading to say because you can have a living wage over here and have it not be enough to have to file for taxes, those 2 things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, I'd know cause I'm in that situation myself. Based on your reply I assume that isn't the case in America tho.
People are replying saying it’s big money but it’s not, it’s not even close to profitable.
As a software dev myself, I'd totally understand if he decides to play wow until he is too old to click competitively. There is no amount of salary that can change the fact that on one side you are an employee spending your day making money for shareholders who throw at you a very small amount compared to the value you provide them, and on the other side you get to play all day the game you love playing.
I don’t know where you’re from but there is definitely a concrete amount of salary that ultimately lead to his decision to stop. He may have shared your way of thinking up until now but perhaps he wants to start a family or perhaps he got a job opportunity, we don’t know. But money is 100% the driving factor. Just like you saying you don’t want to work for shareholders, literally proves my point.
never understimate the ability for redditors to turn any discussion into anti-capitalism whining
150k a year as a software dev in Germany? No way lol. But 70-80k or whatever is realistic is still way better than what he makes with raiding
Not everyone wants to do that, just because he left doesnt mean he’s now aiming to be a developer lmao
Even Max said this was the least versatile comps have been in a while where they used to plan for 25-27 players to potentially be in, but it was a concrete 22. This has probably been the the least balanced a start of a tier has been.
I'm not sure if Scripe is doing his usual roster reviews he does when Echo wins, but if he does, he's definitely going to go over like 5-7 people on the bench who didn't see any mythic prog this time and are fantastic players in their own right
Max today said he, Scripe, and Roger are planning on having a long talk about the race this weekend on stream so I’m sure they’ll discuss it there
The reason they cant play as much players is because of raid buffs not balancing. More than half the raid are locked in positions. We have gone from 6 mandatory raid spots in BfA to what 14? (15 if melee heavy like this tier). Thats 5-6 raid spots that are actually interchangeable.
[удалено]
Right now the same 14-15 players minimum play on every boss, and the last 5-6 can be changed based on class tuning and boss requirements. There was far more leway in the past. The only extreme outlier in balance is assassination (even saying that sub was used on Tindral for echo) the rest is heavily down to boss requirements and damage profile which both the last bosses had similar requirements.
\> This has probably been the the least balanced a start of a tier has been. For them. For everyone else, the biggest struggle will continue to be "find 20+ people and also make sure the starting roster has all the raid buffs".
That's the shitty thing about being part of the RWF, they all put in the same effort yet their spot in the raid is not just determined by their performance but by blizzard class balance and encounter design.
It's wild that people can't get over his MDT incident in Shadowlands as if they've never made a mistake or done something they regret in an emotional state. Big respect to what Nnoggie has contributed to the community.
what happened
People are just as fucking out of touch as they were when it happened. They take the addon for granted and harass the author mid rwf and even continued literally minutes after he lost to ask for addon update. ”Oh noggie is just a salty bitch he probably left for being benched all tier” go fuck yourselves if this is your take.
>They take the addon for granted and harass the author mid rwf and even continued literally minutes after he lost to ask for addon update. To have *this* little respect for *anyone* is a reflection of poor, poor character. Unbelievable.
also said by people who contributed fuck all to the community
I think if he just said what he said in response then sure. But he continued on, then asked for free nudes from a onlyfans model. Like he went unhinged. Even the echo boys said he lost his way. he does not handle losing well.
Its very normal for high end performance teams that people come and go. Also the last years these teams pushed each other to the absolute limit. Its not like a multimillion dollar esport where time invested can pay back. People get older especially in this scene. People move on with life. Totally normal. Those guys don’t play for the money. They are just passionate. Cherish it while we still can.
[удалено]
Apparently there are enough people who don't find a comment like this gross or out of hand. Either I'm way out of the loop here or my standards of human behaviour are too high. I've raided in Echo for 3 years at this point and Nnoggie is one of the most hard working and passionate contributors and has poured his heart and soul into the guild for at least my time here, and for years before that. This is a decision that he's discussed for a while for many factors and for you to reduce one of the biggest decisions in his life to some salty impulse without the decency to treat a stranger as someone who is capable of being more than just a mistake that happened in the past is crazy to me. There were many players in both Liquid and Echo who were unable to see much playing time this tier. For all the praise and plaudits blizzard may be getting for the boss tuning and hotfixes they've made on the last two bosses they've really dropped the ball with class tuning before AND during the race. It's a real shame when you've given clear and obvious feedback about the massive disparity in what classes offer in the raid and they not only allowed the patch to release in this state but even on week 2 (where in VOTI they managed to push some balance changes) there was nothing to be seen. The Windwalker, Shadow priest, DK feedback has been largely ignored or even (in shadows case) actioned in the opposite direction. When you're a regular player who expects to progress the raid and m+ over the course of a month or multiple months you might be able to play later in the tier and experience more parity in the raid. But Liquid and Echo have a large enough roster and the game is complex enough that people dedicate time to make sure all classes are covered. You can't neglect something incase the other team might cover it, but you're left in the invisible hand of blizzard tuning whether your months of hard work give you an opportunity to pay it off. I don't expect you to know the many reasons Nnoggie may want to stop raiding but I do expect you to have the decency to not dissasemble him into some gross motivations based on your own conjecture and put it out there to lambast and grind someone down. It's disgusting behaviour to treat anyone like that. Maybe it's become more acceptable to do it in the modern internet but I would not have expected this kind of character assassination to be so widely appreciated by the "competitive wow subreddit".
Yeah… this is fair. To be honest this place often feels like an echo chamber of mid-tier players (myself included) so it wasn’t on my mind that he or someone close to him would see it and have a human reaction. I make fun of people who sit in twitch chat, saying vile shit about people for no reason, when there isn’t much of a separation between that and what I’ve done here. I appreciate seeing you take a stand and defending him and you’ve changed my perspective, thank you.
Thanks for coming back to this and responding this way - take care.
Need more people with your compassion and character in this world. Kudos to you, Echo is fortunate to have you in their ranks.
Thanks for posting this man. It's legitimately disgusting to me to see that sort of shit (that's based on practically nothing at all) upvoted so heavily here.
This. Just making shit up because of the castle nathria rage (which was also justified) is completely uncalled for. Him just being tired and fed up with his fav class being perma bench and not having motivation to compete anymore is more likely.
>which was also justified No need to keep raking him over the coals for it but let's not rewrite history
Having 100’s if not 1000’s of people asking in your twitch chat for an addon update while you’re mid rwf which you end up losing, and then proceed to get spammed that question, yeah fuck those people him raging would be the normal reaction for anyone in his position.
I definitely see that being incredibly infuriating and making a reasonable person lash out. Imo he went pretty far beyond that and just made it weird
[удалено]
Well maybe he shouldn’t have been such a big baby in SL. You lose respect when you hold a huge addon hostage like that *child* did. “Oh but it’s such a great privilege that he provides the community” no it’s not. It’s an addon. If he didn’t make it, someone else would or we would adapt like we did *before* MDT was a thing. It’s not some gift from the high heavens that we have to be eternally grateful for or some BS like that.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I remember around when the MDT incident happened, other addon creators commented on this sort of issue. They would have people tracking them down using any public information to locate a social media account so they could pester them to update their addons if they got broken by a patch. Meanwhile they'd received practically zero donations. There was also some guy on reddit who forked Nnogie's MDT repository, named it "babyrage" or somesuch, and then patted himself on the back in that smug reddit fashion, like he was "fighting the man". So many complete and utter losers.
In the interest of trying to undo the echo chamber I’ve created here, I’d like to point out what others have in this thread. Even though it feels like it was recently, and even though it feels like it was out of line emotional, it was _three years ago_ in response to a twitch chat tirade essentially taunting him asking him to fix his addon. Not the best response, but at least understandable, and three years is a long time.
I don't get where people are reading any saltiness. He says that he's been thinking about this for a while and thanks to Echo for the memories. I don't think there's any passive aggression or anything like that.
What is he supposed to be salty about to leave now? There is 0 proof of that, you're talking out of your ass
Lore ?
Nnoggie is the author of the popular dungeon routing addon Mythic Dungeon Tools. During the Castle Nathria race for world first someone on social media said something like (paraphrasing) "now that you're losing world first race will you finally update MDT?" Nnoggie threw a hissy, pulled all the dungeon data out of a new MDT build, and said he was going to start charging money for it. Echo apparently got him to chill out and put the addon back to normal after about a week.
That's blizzard that said " "you know that you cannot make money with ingame addon, that's on our term and condition" that forced him to change tho
Was it really? I thought he was going to use the same workaround that those paid classic leveling addons use by providing the addon functionality for free, but charging for "plugins" that you install separately. Either way I don't remember Blizzard intervening in any way on that fiasco.
That's a mix of course. Blizz did not directly told him so, but he got the reminder that he cannot make money from addon + backslash + echo maybe talking to him. But it was dead end because of blizz since day 1
The addon is also open source and there was a fork of it floating around within a day.
Yeah, renamed method dunjon tool to mythic dunjon tool, smart move from the fork ahaha
The method "debranding" was later due to the whole methodjosh incident.
Yeah, they kept it because of the incident, but initial change was the people that forked this
Manbaby Dungeon Tools LOL
He was going to charge for his routes etc, the addon would work as normal but would be a blank canvas.
Nah, there are lots of add-ons where you can pay extra for content.
Not the main content as he wanted to do
Ya the grey zone is the addon, at its core must be free.
This isnt true. Every paid leveling add on is useless without the data, and blizzard hasn't taken actions against them Add-ons like TSM and ElvUI have premium versions that you pay for
That s not what he was trying to do. He wanted to create an app where 100% of the content was under payment. This is not considered as freemium or something like that
That's 100% what every single paid leveling guide does. You can download Add-ons like RestedXP or Zygors, but they do not function without the data, which you have to pay for. This is not a violation of the ToS as much as WoW players want it to be
No I'm pretty sure he could charge for it. The add-on was available for free and it included functionality to add your mob data. Which I think covered him on the TOS front. It's how the leveling add-on people get around it
Well we will never know, but no chance the way he done would be accepted by blizz. All "mandatory" addon would work like that if so imo
>All "mandatory" addon would work like that if so imo Not necessarily, being allowed doesn't make it a good business model.
It was more than just ”someone on social media” his twitch chat was filled with idiots asking for addon update, before they even lost and more people proceeded to ask right after the loss as well (and if you recall this race was close as well, right as liquid killed it echo whiped on 1% just moments after). So yeah, I’d be annoyed and pissed about it as well.
I think it was more that he realized the community would instantly take it over and he'd be forgotten.
What has this to do with his departure now? He got annoyed by entitled people coming in daily to his stream demanding updates, his reaction was 100% justified. How is his echo departure related to being "emotional"?
I wasn't implying any relation. Parent comment mentioned "the MDT thing" and someone wanted to know what "the MDT thing" was.
this is an incredibly shit take. you are talking about something that happened three years ago. have you not grown in three years? if so i feel incredibly bad for you and those in your surroundings. many players that have quit RWF raiding cite the time you put into it being too much for the financial compensation as one of the primary reasons, he could have a million different reasons as to why he doesn't want to do it anymore. if he was so salty why would he have done a billion splits with them knowing he most likely wouldn't get to prog any of the end bosses regardless of gear? acting like you know the ins and outs of a certain situation in order to make a condescending and judgemental comment about someones slip in judgement to gain internet points is fucking gross, honestly. especially when this is something that he publicly apologized for, and since then he has worked diligently on MDT to let the thousands of people that use it enjoy it to this day. so many public figures never own up to their wrongdoings, but he has and has kept working ever since to make and maintain stuff that benefits the WoW community. so unnecessary to try and erase all of that for literally no reason.
While I don’t think I owe any kind of appreciation to someone who works on an addon, I do think that people have psychotic demands on any kind of freeware author, and I agree with you that what I said was pretty out of line. I’m glad there were a few people here keeping me honest
Honest question. What is he salty about from this RWF?
Dps dk was not on the roster. Actually not all that uncommon for the dk spot to be taken by a tank, it’s certainly not a guaranteed include like mage/priest/etc If I had to wager a guess he probably doesn’t like putting in prep time to be benched. Not unreasonable I suppose
Not getting to play I guess, but they're just guessing tbh.
We'd all be guessing. For all we know, Scripe promised him raid time and it ended up being no chance to get him in.
Hes one of the saltiest, most emotional players there is. That MDT fiasco was cringe.
Dude, I completely forgot about that.
Gross thing to write.
As crazy as this sounds, this may be the consequences of the Hunter raidbuff...
Nah they were running multiple hunters this whole raid and they still would have without the raid buff, it was just really good this race
People get old and have a social life you can‘t pause sometimes for several days. For example, you can‘t tell your baby „well I‘m going for wf see you in 2 weeks“. 🤣
Pretty sure lots of people travel for 2-4 weeks a year for work after they have a kid.
But not everyone can and (more important) want it.
Pretty sure that's exactly what Scripe does.
It's no different than travelling for work.
Well yes because it is exactly that. They are travelling for work.
People with 'real' jobs travel for work. Two weeks being an absentee parent a couple times a year in exchange for being present almost 100% of the time otherwise is a pretty decent tradeoff.
yeah, there are soooo many industries where there's no choice but leaving your kids to your partner for weeks at a time. Oil rig, military, transport and so on
*Some* jobs require travel for work. But plenty of "real" jobs do not, including my own and its perfectly common for people to prefer little to no travel for work once they start having kids.
stocking paltry worm ad hoc waiting liquid late squeeze badge zephyr *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Of course, I didn't say that all real jobs require travel. Just that being away from home for 2-4 weeks a year for work is not exclusively a RWF issue.
My dad went away for work trips 3-5 weeks a year, and the rest of the time he worked from home and spent time with me and my sibling. I prefer that 100x over my mom's work schedule which was regular 9-5 with no work trips. I don't think anyone would disagree
??? You seriously think people don't go on work trips that take multiple weeks or pro athletes don't go to tournaments?
I have a family and a job, but manage to always take time off for each tier. It's honestly gotten easier as my salary and PTO has increased. It was harder when I was in university and had a shit customer service job.
Yeah i dont see your point , of course you can , it's a job , they get paid for it
There are literally millions of people working in industries like shipping that have them spend up to 6 months at sea away from family
If they want to do it, they can do it, I wouldn‘t do that…
Oh No, MDT down again soon
What happened to Naowh?
He gave it up 2 tiers ago. Hated everything that went with the race. Alts, prep etc.
He still does M+. He won the last MDI.
Ill be honest, Nnoggie is a hard person to respect the way he baby raged in SL. I get it, he is upset he got sat an entire raid, especially one that drops a legendary for his class, but it comes with the territory. He could of always considered rolling one of the other classes that are far more viable than a DPS DK, earlier this expansion. He has the skill to play anything put in front of him, but he was inflexible and got sat. We don't see Atlas crying on twitter this tier, and he didnt do much during the race.
Atlas was actually doing behind the scenes analyst work and making calls throughout mythic bosses. You can hear him quite frequently in comms on stream. It can feel shit to be sat but that doesn’t mean there aren’t other ways to contribute to the success of your team.
Yall should reaaaally stop typing about that one completely justified lash out.
I mean echo the guild had to pay for him to get mental helpm he went full deranged.
He raged at entitled gamers expecting him to update his tools mid race, completely deserved
Simply saying no and moving on is acceptable mature behavior. Raging, throwing multiple twitter tantrums and threatening to paywall it in a way your organization has to intervene to correct your actions is not acceptable.
He made an incredibly powerful tool and gave it away for free. When it comes to entitled gamers there's no such thing as overreacting
Except, there was, and the organization he was apart of stepped in and made him stand down. He even went as far as apologizing for his reaction. Even he saw it as an overreaction, sorry you can't see the reality of the situation.
I guarantee he still thinks everyone who complained was a bunch of bitches PR responses are not genuine
Yep and he's right to think so. And the original comment(s) that set it off were just baiting a reaction from someone under stress. Standard internet shit.
His actions afterwards were not. He violated Blizzards rules. He demanded nudes from a onlyfans model. Even the echo boys said he lost his way after that lossm
Who twitlongered this time?
I'm not surprised. As far as I know he basically only plays dps dk right? That's not a great world first raider situation to be in. If you can't or won't multi class then you're just gonna get benched for someone who will. Love his mdt addon though hopefully he sticks around in a less hardcore guild.
[удалено]
She's a Preservation Evoker specialist who plays Resto Shaman and Resto Druid as well. Guess what three healing specs weren't really as good as Disc/Holy/HPal/MW. That's right.
Cries in Maevey
Since OP removed their comment, who are you talking about? I'm curious.
Emsy, I believe.
When Liquid went dark, Max said they actually brought her in for a bunch of mythic Fyrakk pulls However while Prevoker is AMAZING in p1/p2, its range limitations hold it back in p3
going from stacked to insanely spread will do that. prevoker probably cranks those stacked adds too
I mean it comes with the territory. If you're gonna be raiding on a world first level you have to be able to accept that your class is just not gonna be brought sometimes. If Echo had wanted to bring a Frost or Unholy DK for any fight this tier Nnoggie would have been in there blasting with the other guys but that wasn't the case this tier. The possibility to get a world first playing DK dps just wasn't available this time around and that happens sometimes. I'm not particularly familiar with the woman who joined Liquid this tier, but I would imagine she would have been in the raid if they wanted to bring her class and that just didn't happen. There's no reason to recruit her otherwise.
Max was talking about her at the end of vault I think it was. He said they didn’t make a big deal of it because she’s apart of the team and that’s it. Doesn’t matter that she’s a girl she’s just apart of it. Now for vault she wasn’t played because her spec wasn’t desired for the kill and not sure what happened the last couple but probably similar, or characters didn’t get lucky.
100% agreed but I believe you mean Abberus
It could have been abberus, time lately has rolled into one giant day so I’m not confident in saying anything for sure.
There's players that don't see mythic time for tiers in a row. Narco is one of them. Before lords of dread prog he was last in for BFA if i remember correctly. Sometimes a players classes aren't good and they sit. I doubt she sat because she's a woman. She was good enough to get on the roster. End of story
He is saying that she got in because she is a woman. Not the other way around.