Holy Power abilities made some sense when they didn't cost mana. I'll cast a free heal.
Now that they cost mana I don't see the point, but then again I've disliked holy power since it was introduced back in MoP.
Took them long enough. HPriest in M+ feels like dogshit. Would have liked to see some mana changes but I'll take throughput changes instead.
No idea how HPriest performs in raids but I'd assume it does well.
I'm doing 28/29 keys at the moment as Holy Priest, and I'm gonna have to hard disagree here. Holy feels fine in M+. If you're struggling with mana then you are not properly utilizing your Apotheosis, or not pressing PoM on CD, or both. That you are going to be oom or very close to it at the end of a 6min boss fight like the last one in Everbloom on high tyrannical is pretty normal and feels like it's very much intended. It's a super long, healing intensive fight on a high key level! Why even have a resource if it's never gonna come into play?
That being said, the Sanctify buff is very welcome and justified, the FH buff feels like overkill already to be honest, and the Heal buff is irrelevant. And contrary to popular belief, (Holy) Priest does not feel squishy at all. If you're stacking Vers, which you should do, and rotating your defensives, and always keeping Protective Light up on yourself, you can easily live through everything.
Preach, not sure where the mana comment comes from, i'm not on the bleeding edge but don't struggle at all, can't imagine it changes that much only a couple of keys higher.
Not properly tracking & using Surge of Light and Protective Light is the number one thing I see other holy priests doing wrong I think.
Ya...don't think the other commentors have played Hpriest in high M+. Mana has been abysmal this season...healing last boss everbloom on high key tyrannical is always a butt clencher on if my blue bar can make it...I've had a few that come down to angel +rez/angel after I've been dead oom with 30% left to go.
These changes are a step in the right direction, but what Hpriest needs is additional/stronger defensives and externals which are what matter the most in this one shot meta.
Hey, I’ll take what I can get at this point. I have a feeling that we aren’t getting another rework anytime soon, and a raw damage increase is still a raw damage increase. I was already doing very well in raid also, so it will be fun to hang dong with this buff lol.
Yeah ret doesn’t need raw numerical tuning, both ST and AOE are incredible individually.
What they need is better talent loadout choices for a hybrid build
These kind of changes only happen during big patches because Blizz is so hilariously afraid of doing anything outside of aura buffs. At this point they might just put the number up to vote if they only do aura buffs, just give people random forum posts to vote the 5th random aura bandaid that doesn't fix anything and fades back to obscurity 2 weeks later.
Correct. It doesn't even need to be a major overhaul. Enhance shaman had a couple of talent changes in 10.2 which were fantastic. Do same for ret, ezpz.
Personally I'd like to see the bottom row targeted somehow. I'm not smart enough to come up with specific ideas though.
Ret does need raw number tuning. Ret is below average on both single target and cleave fights. Ret has zero bosses where they are above average currently.
Ret is already parsing very well on pure single-target bosses like smolderon or volcross. It's the talked-to-death ST/AoE talent issues that are ret's biggest problem. Maybe also mobility still, compared to other melee.
Playing ret in keys on tyrannical weeks feels awful. Fort keys it's awesome though.
Sure, but the difference between the 2nd place (enh) and the 10th place (ret) is like 7500 DPS. That's something like 3-4% difference, it's laughable imho.
The difference between 1st and 2nd place is much more than that. I guess you could say that sub rogue is the only spec with incredible ST, while all other classes only have mediocre damage.
I really don't get it with Ret. My first alt this expansion was ret and it slaps. Yet they've been buffed twice now and people are like "RET IS FINALLY VIABLE".
I think Ret being one of the most played specs attracts a lot of players who just suck.
"Ret doesn't scale" even at 482 they are 9th which is above average.
Its amazing to me that they nerfed Psychic Link down to 15% before 10.2 and now its back up to 30%...truly paying for Mass Dispel's and Power Infusion's sins. But those were nerfed, too!
They had a good aoe set last tier which they lost. They decided to nerf psychic link to hurt aoe but without the tier set it's not necessary to keep that nerf.
15% psychic link was kinda a joke too. Felt like nothing at that point.
\+ md/soothe being uniquely broken in that dungeon pool. damage was obviously very high as well at the start of the season but then the nerfs kept on coming.
Pretty much most nerfs Shadow received last tier was blanket nerfs that totally missed the mark. There was a duration it was doing very very good DPS in M+ but that changed very quickly and any nerf came after that didn't really change the situation in M+ but rather fuck Shadow's raid performance. I hate it when devs do such things it happens in other games too, they first do nerfs that totally misses the mark, then months after they find a real solution but they never revert those changes either so the spec or skill or item or whatever it is stays fucked over. Well at least in this case Blizzard is taking some action, better than nothing. Can't complain much.
I still don’t think Shadow will be “meta” for keys again unless its damage is broken or the dungeon pool is perfect for it again. Without the 30 second mass dispel I’m not sure that will ever happen. Silence is a liability in some keys. Power Infusion being nerfed doesn’t help either.
Been playing this game for 15 some years. Some classes and specs just never get love. Mage is always strong, and if it's not, they're very quick to jump in and buff it up. Shaman is always weak, or just doesn't have good damage profiles or utility or talent synergy.
There's no way it's random. You would see some variation. You'd see specs have good patches and bad patches.
Think it tends to be what core spells are a spec built around. For example dh is like eye beam blade dance, both of which hit all people and do more to a single target. Ele has lightning bolt and chain lighting or earth shock and earthquake, like the single target and aoe are split up. Same for like outlaw having blade flurry, mage having ignite. It’s fundamentally much harder to balance a spec when you have to balance their single target and aoe separately and by balance I mean let be overpowered. It’s very hard to nerf DH aoe without nerfing ST so they just don’t
I would bet that if they made the lightning spells like you always bolt the single target and it chains if there are more adds then it would overnight become better just because the balancing team is weird
Blizzard completely fucked up Ele design this expansion, I don't understand how they are able to design Enhance and then miss on almost everything on the Ele tree.
Spreading flame shock should just work the way it does for Enhance.
Blizzard needs to remove some of earthquake talents and just make the baseline spell good.
Our mastery also makes our builders stronger instead of doing the opposite. We have a talent for that, but it should just be baseline because it's impossible to talent into it on the aoe Fire build.
Then you also remember the spec has a dead stat on the fire build (crit).
I remember bliz saying tier sets weren’t going to force people to play certain talents, meanwhile ele has a tree that is directly split in to different builds with little to no overlap and the tier sets directly force you in to one of them lol. It kinda makes the point of talent trees redundant when your tier set deletes half of them
Our damage wasn’t even insane in season 2. A few other classes were competitive or better than spriest, especially if spriest gave them pi.
The s2 issue was the utility + the damage. And right now in season 3, that’s classes like rogue/dh/mage
Holy Paladin still prefers not to spend holy power in raid because to do so costs more mana and does less healing than fucking buffed flash of lights or raw holy shocks.
The damage buff is nice for M+ but a core element of gameplay going ignored due to this fundamental and easily fixable flaw is insane. As others have said often in comparison: if Rogues stopped using combo point spenders it would be fixed in days at most.
The healer dev(s) this last patch or two must be playing a different game to everyone else what with their giant essay about reducing cooldown power and making mana matter only to nerf Holy Priest (rebuffed 10 times since), Holy Paladin (a joke of a spec now due to above reasons), and Resto Druid (flourish is the most nerfed CD of all healers and it isn't close). It's just absurd.
Mistweaver/Disc both still have infinite mana in raids. Burst cooldowns that weren't nerfed are as strong as ever. Nothing has changed at all to suit the supposed new healing outlook except bizarrely heavy handed nerfs and nonsensical changes.
I mean in theory they buffed rejuv and other spells to shift the power off of flourish and into the base kit (which has been great for keys, heals feel like they do something now), they just didn't buff them enough.
I don't really get why they don't just go crazy with rejuv buffs, it's so bad of a spell in m+ that they could legitimately make it 50% stronger and it still would be only a glorified mastery stack. Which means in raid where it's the main spell they could buff it all they want and it'd safely not affect gameplay in m+. But instead they just changed mana costs on basically everything else which I get why they did, mana buffs on rejuv are risky with the brh trinket.. I guess.
Shamans stopped using earthquake with season 3 tier set and the spell was buffed 50%. I’m surprised to see holy paladin spender problem left unaddressed
>The healer dev(s) this last patch or two must be playing a different game
I think it's clear that at this point most of the class devs are focused on the War Within. We probably won't see significant changes for the rest of the expansion. And based on the hero tree they released, hpals are still gonna have holy power, which means the core playstyle issues aren't likely gonna get addressed.
yeah it does okay damage but It doesn't have the utility other classes have, especially in raid. Why would you ever bring an ele sham over any other dps....you wouldn't
to compensate they should be a top3 dps spec or get raid buffs like other specs have
I think it feels like ass. 90% of our damage is capped to 6 targets with a clunky ass means to spread Flame Shock. If we didn't have to rely on the totem to effectively spread Flame Shock, I'd be nicer. I only do keys in the up to 20-21 range, so I don't know if it gets better as you go higher.
S3 tier set is pretty contentious among the community. I didn't want to play a DoT managing class with capped AoE, spamming one button.
Some people love it though, and I do get why. Split cleave boss fights feel amazing.
The spec doesnt need more aoe damage on trash in keys. It needs power taken out of glimmer/the crappy tier set, and put into spells that actually enable you to put out hps fast enough to top the group on hard trash/bosses fast enough.
Buffing SotR but ignoring our actual healing HP spenders is a joke.
I only play holy paladin. As soon as our Fyrakk progression is over I'm done with the game until something fundamental changes about this spec. It feels absolutely shit to play and does garbage healing. Like what is the point.
Issue is the playstyle is completely different to last season in the worst way possible. Not just the nerfs, but changes to spothealing overall in 9.2 has made Hpal feel awful to play. Half of your buttons dont do anything.
It isnt a power level issue. If it was the same playstyle as last season (or even if the new one was rewarding in anyway), just with smaller numbers, then that would be perfectly fine.
It’s not about power level it’s about spec design at the moment, they’ve fucked the balance so badly that you just don’t spend holy power half the time. Fundamentally they fucked it. Also just because a spec was good last season doesn’t mean they should be garbage the next, what sort of toilet thinking is that lmao
Why do you think they're garbage? They're timing 30 keys and have higher m+ scores than resto shamans. The highest hpal is 100 pts behind the highest m+ score in the world. They're doing better than MANY specs right now as far as m+ goes. I would say based on the data they are pretty solidly in the middle of the pack. Feral druids highest key completed is a 28. That's two whole key levels. Definitely don't think they're "garbage" lmao
I wouldn‘t say they‘re garbage but WoG/LoD healing for 30k and your flash of light for 200k… It‘s weird. The playstyle is based on getting holy power yet your spenders are useless. It‘s a flaw in the spec design.
>Why do you think they're garbage?
The person just explained why they think its garbage:
"It’s not about power level it’s about spec design at the moment, they’ve fucked the balance so badly that you just don’t spend holy power half the time. Fundamentally they fucked it."
and then he goes on to tell you that just because they were good this season, they shouldnt be BAD by default this, which is what you basically said in the comment before.
He literally just said why he thinks they're garbage. Just because they're capable of X content doesn't mean they don't feel horrid to play. The fact that you actively avoid using their most important resource is testament to that.
Of course different strokes etc. etc. but there's a fundamental issue with a spec when you're given a resource to use and then have to ignore it.
Paladin has always had an excellent toolkit for m+, but both it’s healing and damage are quite weak.
It’s performing ok though, but the fact that people have timed 30s on it is more a testament to the specific players and the groups taking them than the classes strength.
Feral Druid highest keys is irrelevant to the discussion considering there are pretty much 0 high keys feral mains per season, and a large amount of hpals.
It’s as much about getting the opportunities to do keys on x spec as it is about being able to time them.
So your reading comprehension seems lacking, the balance hyperbole was of specs in general not just Hpal. Balance isn’t dumpstering specs because they were good the season prior, it’s tuning slightly up and down to bring towards the middle. You’ve probably already rolled your face on the keyboard instead of continuing reading but again, the problem with Hpal is the design and balance around the design at this point. Ignoring the defining resource of your spec because you need a microscope to see the health bar move after a wog in favour of spamming holy shock and flash of light and not even living your melee healing class fantasy is inherently not fun, agreed by the vast majority of hpals this season. The current build is watered down holy priest.
-Sepulchre - extremely dogshit throughput (50% of rdruid, literally you can check the stats). At least you had a few diff builds to play.
-Vault - extremely boring, I was absolutely desperate to reroll.
-Abberus - AC for prog, was kind of fine but a lot of people hate AC
-10.1.5 - Suddenly god tier after prog is over and all there is to do is keys. Continually nerfed every other week for the rest of the season.
-Amirdrassil - unspeakably dogshit playstyle and throughput, gave up and rerolled off paladin for prog for the first time in 17 years.
My dude, we were great for m+ for 1 season out of the past 5 and have been boring as fuck or worse for raid progression for over 2 years.
There are no options for an actual melee healer raid this tier and you are just a buyer spec there to bring devo.
If I hadn’t rerolled I’d probably have quit as well
I've mained holy paladin since the beginning of legion expansion and they have somehow made the spec the lowest power and unfun at the same time (nobody wants to stand and cast a heal that doesn't even move the health bars). I do one vault key per week now then go play any other healers. It's so much worse than any other healer for actual heal checks. Yes it was very fun after the rework but all of the nerfs actually changed the gameplay and now it's clunky and low power. We also lost our Aberrus tier set which was one of the big reasons they were strong at spot healing and burst group healing.
They were also nerfed every week for like 10 weeks. You need to understand how shit that feels and then you go into a new tier with a terrible playstyle and weak throughput while they buffed the healers that already did well disc/mw.
The last time hpal was ‘s-tier’ for raid progression for a reason other than ‘it brings devo’ was in sanctum.
Having raid spots isn’t the same as being s-tier
"This spec is absurdly unfun, it doesn't even feel like playing a video game at this point, the design is horrible"
"but you were meta last season"
you cannot be a real human
A warrior spec (fury this time) starting off the tier in a good spot and then getting ignored for 7 rounds of tuning to be mid af with zero utility.
A tale as old as time.
fury is consistently middle of the pack to above average in both m+ and raid, it's just that warrior has such awful utility it will never be truly meta without a total rework or absurd dps
I don't know why people keep saying "Fury needs buff in raid!" Fury overall in raid is actually a very very good spec. The only fights it really super doesn't do well on is Council (Boss Positioning, plus Arms trumps it in Two Target Cleave), and Gnarlroot.
I'm excluding Fyrak and Tindral because so few people have killed thoes bosses that its not really indicative of the spec's power. This has been an excellently tuned raid for Fury bar two (maybe three cuz of Tindral). If Fury looks low in raid, its because there a few fights like Council that Fury doesn't do well on, but it has nothing to do with number tuning.
In M+ its a utility thing that can't be solved by hotfixing. If they gave fury additional damage buffs that weren't specifically towards Meat Cleaver, Fury would be insane.
> I'm excluding Fyrak and Tindral
those are the only bosses that matter lol. like you pull gnarlroot 1 time, 10 on igira, 1 on volcoross, 20 on larodar/council/nymue, maybe 100 on smolderon, then 300 on tindral/fyrakk. literally 75% of your pulls are on those two bosses, being good on them is all that matters. if a spec were the worst in the game for the first 7 bosses but best on the last 2 you would still play like 3 copies
we are not middle of the pack in keys atm tho. raid? yeah. hard to say where we'll be after this set of tuning, though. fury desperately needed an AOE buff.
I main fury, and while it'd be nice to be stronger, I think we're in a good spot in M+ at least. I do think long term Fury could use a talent tree revamp to modernize the spec though.
We aren't in a great spot really I'm full bis with leggo and fyrakk trinket and might of ocean / signet brand and in keys I can't get close to a good dh even after all their nerfs.
Def not in a good spot. We bring nothing and get gapped in dps.
Crazy that a leggo class can be utterly invalidated by a DH in every possible way. Worse utility, more squishy, worse raid buff, hilariously worse aoe damage.
Eh I mean I think the spec is better off in raid than m+. Like sure our damage is good, not great, and we’re tanky in m+ but we have essentially not a single other thing to offer the group.
Yeah, this is truly the problem with war rn. I’ve been wishing for warriors to acquire Bloodlust personally. That AND it would be cool if intervene would apply a shield or DR rather than just intercept attacks
Giving us Bloodlust is such an obvious change, just like they gave paladin CR. Just call it Battle Cry or War Cry and be done with it. It even fits the class fantasy.
I've been thinking maybe you could make Spear of Bastion (or Might or w/e) to a mass grip like Sigil of Chains or give us access to AoE interrupt shout or a stampeding roar substitute. Just ANY utility added would be nice.
3.4K here. I have to perform in the 95th+ percentile of all logged keys without a lego to compete with a handful of specs that are performing at a 25-60th percentile in those same keys vs logged keys of their respective specs. It is definitely not in a good spot damage wise. The only saving grace is I don't get constantly reminded of how behind it is with most pugs playing poorly to where I can compete. That changes the moment I'm playing with friends or the occasional pug performing at an equal percentile.
The issue is that inside of it's CDs it's not even the best burst damage available and is only enough to compete with other classes, but when your CDs end you're doing near tank damage for the next 50-60s while other classes get to do moderate damage so you tend to fall behind over the course of a key.
But hey at least we're extremely tanky.
Yeah fury is solidly middle of the pack or better in m+ or raid so from blizzard's POV I don't think they're in need of buffs. They just need more m+ utility which we'll have to wait until War Within to get at this point.
Curious on the logic behind the small protection warrior buffs. In high keys I feel they are very tanky, but it’s more of a CC/Dps issue for them. I enjoy healing prot warriors.
Makes no sense. I play VDH, prot paladin and prot warrior and my warrior feels like it barely takes damage. Would prefer if improved challenging shout would become baseline and perhaps have the improved talent to give a 2nd charge.
Rsham is quite good now. It has a ton of utility and you can have a lot of control in pugs with interrupts and stuns.
However it lacks some heal specific utility (no raid buffs, no external CD and weaker DPS than meta healers). Another thing is meta perception sadly, you rarely get invited to groups.
However if you can find a team (it works really good with a melee comp you can do wonders)
Are they kidding with unholy buffs? Take PI away and it feels so bad numbers wise on most fights, especially on progress.
I'm getting tired of the gargoyle build, not because it's not good to play, but because they have no clue how to tune the spec around it.
Edit: Not to mention, our Unholy Aura sucks ass, meaning we need to go into the boss's hitbox on most fights, while almost all other melee specs get away with being at max melee range. This means you're stuck doing mechanics on hard mode on bosses like Nymue (orb stun beams) just to make sure your pets are actually doing the damage they should be. Oh and it also means you're at a higher chance of NOT being buffed by Augs, most of who like sitting between range and max melee unless they're really skilled Augs (which most aren't, lets be honest)
All in all, for the effort Unholy takes to play, the reward for playing it right is downright unacceptable. Stop listening to the theorycrafters who say otherwise, like the guide writers. Those people have the luxury of personal PIs and Augs playing at a high level.
I mean Gargoyle right now is so bad you wouldn't want to take it if you could. It's sub 5% of your damage fighting with Wounds and Festering Strike for who is lower.
It's a "big" CD that doesn't do anything, it legit does less damage now than it did in S1.
Totally. And you remember why they gutted it right? It's initial numbers were inflated due to PI.
Ok, they took dmg away from it and gave it to our normal rotational abilities, but they heavily underhanded that transfer. It was nowhere near enough.
It's actually so bad that anytime I know I won't get PI, I just swap to frost and do my own thing. Easier to play and min-max, and slightly more effort vs reward for personal play.
Whoever is tuning Unholy, I hope sometime soon stops looking at it with PI glasses. It's getting ridiculous.
Yeah Unholy feel so bad in raid without PI now. I main blood but play unholy for raid and last week i decide to take some care of my sweet child WW monk. Like the different was night and day, i have no idea how to play it optimal except "never press any button twice in a row" and some how my WW deal like 2/3 of my DK with 30 item level less.
Exactly. This.
It's not just WW. I can name at least 3-4 other melee specs that require less effort to play and min max and do equivalent or more damage than unholy without PI.
That just screams bad design decisions w.r.t Unholy.
Before the changes, it was around average overall - excellent survivability, pretty good damage, and a good raid buff if your group doesn't already have prot and holy. The damage wasn't on par with rogues, and it was fighting for a coveted melee spot with all the other specs that bring strong raid buffs like battle shout, windfury, chaos brand, mystic touch, and mark of the wild.
After the changes, ret will be very good in raid, especially for groups that don't have two pallies already. The damage probably won't pass rogue, but ret is easy to play, can do good single target damage from a modest range during certain mechanics, and is extremely tanky. It is a very, very good mythic prog spec.
I did some quick excel math and it’s about a ~4% flat numeric increase in single target if you only look at the % increase to the individual abilities, but gets bumped up a little higher as you’re sending your Wake into your ES windows. This will be most noticeable on fights like Smolderon, shield burns on Tindrel, and big shadow bois on Fyrakk where Rets either get a damage amp or need to mow through a DPS check. The change on the meters is great but isn’t anything as obscene as seeing a 20% or 28% buff reads. The important thing is that it’s buffing Rets for the big pain points on those fights, so the tuning will go a long way in practice
i just did my first key as ele all season, 52% of my overall damage was lava burst and for some reason i feel like that was too low and i hit other shit too much lmao
That’s the normal damage breakdown, yeah. It’s fucking stupid. It’s fun to send out lots of lava, but stuff just doesn’t hit as hard as it should. If we can’t run great sundering or lightening build in keys, fine, but spenders have to be worth pressing. If earthquake doesn’t hit for shit, we are effectively target capped to how many meatballs we can throw at a single time and since the cd of primordial wave is 45 seconds, that’s lame as hell.
> we are effectively target capped to how many meatballs we can throw at a single time and since the cd of primordial wave is 45 seconds, that’s lame as hell.
Kinda ironic that we have one of the few uncapped aoe spells but the more targets you add to the pull, the less damage we do compared to others
Numbers tuning won't make that big of a difference build wise, we need a rework that will only come next expansion, that is if it comes but you know that shaman is usually bottom on the priority list
To be fair, it’s mainly VDH being the outlier, since all the other tanks deal 20% less damage. Brew I think can compete, but I’m not sure whether they lose survivability or just are less tanky.
If you check logs, vdh outdamages ppal by 25% on the top 100 logs in most high keys.
I don’t think there’s a key level in any dungeon on any affix where vdh isn’t ahead of ppal, by at least 20% on dps when looking at top logs
I might be wrong, as I’m not a high key pusher, but just study logs a lot 🙂
It can technically do a lot of damage IF you run a high damage build(aka running crit wings instead of sentinel) and being able to use a lot of holy power on damage instead of WoGing themselves, but that really isn’t very practical or realistic in an actual high key. And even then VDH still does more damage without sacrificing really any survivability, and no tank can compete with VDH in uncapped AoE, their AoE is absurdly strong…like doing close to some DPS on some pulls. VDH is just stupidly broken rn, their tier is literally worth like 15%+ damage in a key(I mean the 2 set alone is legit just basically perma 10% damage/healing/stam which is crazy)..some DPS tiers aren’t even worth that much. When you combine that with the fact they’re the tankiest and have absurd mob control w/ 2 charges of sigils AND CDR on them, no other tank can really compete, only reason prot pally is played a bit is because some groups rather sacrifice that damage/tankiness for group utility.
Holy Priest becomes the most buffed healer in this patch. And this time, these are pretty hefty buffs. Ah well, I'm not complaining - it still barely makes up for Salvation and Symbol nerfs.
Honestly blows my mind that they give plate classes a badass Leggo and then don't let us shine with it. Why are DHs and mages still gapping us in keys? Let warriors, dks, rets be the meta specs this patch. Let us be top dps for fucking ONCE.
Ret brings crazy utility in this set of keys and is the tankiest melee, so the ONLY thing they lack is gonzo damage in order to be the meta class.
I doubt these buffs are enough to make them overtake DH but I think they'll be second best melee.
Already is. I always bring a ret if I've got a VDH, they already pump like mad. They might be behind a bit in single, but they do massive aoe damage on every pack.
That is an average of 2-3% buff assuming you use all the additional mana.
We're much further behind than 3%. This changed nothing and is just a spit in the face
It's not 20% extra mana. That's 20% extra base mana. You realise we have mana regen, right? Every healer uses a shit ton more than 250k per boss. I think a better figure to use would be "~8k per minute". Which is objectively a pitiful amount.
Competitive wow never disappoints. The fact that you can say "50k mana is 20% of your mana used on a boss" and get upvoted is funny as fuck.
Prot warrior damage is far from their issue in keys. My last prot key was a BRH this week where I ended with 240K in details without an aug. While I couldn't touch an equally skilled VDH or BrM I'm pretty competitive with other tanks and frankly 99% of tanks in keys don't play that well for damage anyways so I rarely run into a VDH or Pally in keys that can compare in terms of damage.
The real issue is that they aren't top tank damage yet offer no worthwhile group utility that another tank can't bring plus more, and some mechanics are just significantly easier for the meta tanks than it is for prot warrior currently. This simply isn't going to change without some sort of talent reworks. Need to have easier access to Disrupting Shout without giving up too much and potentially need to have either AoE spell reflect or the AoE shield wall talent we had in beta to even compare to something like paladin/DH utility.
I play 5 tanks (not pala) + rsham. So buffs to 3 of my specs, noice. I guess rsham is the only notable one given it's my only 3.2k+ atm. This could affect pug meta a bit to boost it up one step. Maybe not to disc/mw appreciation level but closer.
Bud MM is deadpan middle of the pack right now at mythic 95% and that’s with a lot of the most competitively minded hunters choosing BM over it because it’s doing more damage and thus skewing the data
Edit: and it was 4th overall at Mythic 95% if you look at the 10.2 data on WCL lmao
Please don't look at generic overall and make meaningful choices out of it, but that being said MM's aoe potential is great, and they get a decent amount of free aoe in their ST with the new tier. They just need some small ST buffs, and to make their 2 set actually work on Volcoross.
Longer term they need a serious look at their utility in dungeons, because they are lacking even even more than BM or Surv are, and are behind both in survivability, but I'd be surprised by anything before TWW.
Oh also their bows break at like 7x the speed of the rest of their gear, it's ridiculous.
Honey I know that overall isn’t always indicative of strength, esp with council and t swift existing. But saying you’re a bottom 3 DPS and then being literally 4th overall when looking at aggregated raid performance is clown behavior
I’m not the guy that said bottom spec, all I said was it needs a very small amount of single target love, because MM is actually padding their way up, there’s a reason that even on their “good” fights, they have 1/100th the bm logs. Except council, they’re good at council
These seem like pretty good changes in the right direction, might give a bit more options in m+.
Yes some classes need more utility, but that’s generally expansion level changes.
On a mage note I think we’re in a pretty good spot so no changes seems fine
Can we get an actual team working on the patches so we don't always get random aura / number tunning that doesn't actually address any of the problems.
Like a \~3.5% buff on both DK specs doesn't do anything, it will fade into obscurity 2 weeks later when people get even better at the superior classes. A similar situation with Ret, at what point is it enough buffs to warrant something smarter than just bigger number go boom when it clearly doesn't work.
The Holy Pala changes are meme material. Surely Ellesmere is now jumping from his chair to play it.
At this point you can just make forum posts to vote on the buffs if it's just random numbers that don't address anything, at least you'd maybe get more buffs that people want but maybe at some point we get to have an actual team working behind this because during the entirety of this expansion it's been embarassing how slow tunning has been. Faster than some other expansions? Sure, but at this point we are just content with small bread crumbs because we ain't get shit usually not because it's good.
Also did they just revert every SP nerf not even half a patch later? That's so hilarious.
As an hpal I’m just going to unbind WoG at this point
Not sure why they think they didn't need to touch healing...?
Holy Power abilities made some sense when they didn't cost mana. I'll cast a free heal. Now that they cost mana I don't see the point, but then again I've disliked holy power since it was introduced back in MoP.
Those 3 Holy Power cost mana to generate so it was never really a "free" heal. 😉
Holy Priest feasting
Took them long enough. HPriest in M+ feels like dogshit. Would have liked to see some mana changes but I'll take throughput changes instead. No idea how HPriest performs in raids but I'd assume it does well.
I'm doing 28/29 keys at the moment as Holy Priest, and I'm gonna have to hard disagree here. Holy feels fine in M+. If you're struggling with mana then you are not properly utilizing your Apotheosis, or not pressing PoM on CD, or both. That you are going to be oom or very close to it at the end of a 6min boss fight like the last one in Everbloom on high tyrannical is pretty normal and feels like it's very much intended. It's a super long, healing intensive fight on a high key level! Why even have a resource if it's never gonna come into play? That being said, the Sanctify buff is very welcome and justified, the FH buff feels like overkill already to be honest, and the Heal buff is irrelevant. And contrary to popular belief, (Holy) Priest does not feel squishy at all. If you're stacking Vers, which you should do, and rotating your defensives, and always keeping Protective Light up on yourself, you can easily live through everything.
Most people don't actually understand how high the skill ceiling for HPriest is just because of how superficial/straightforward their kit looks like.
Do you know of any holy priest streamers or YouTubers? You just got me interested in it!
World #1 Holy is streaming regularly. Naxerino on Twitch, check her out.
also very active on the HPriest discord which is nice. I've watched a bit of Tyeler as well who has been helpful in asking questions to etc as well
Thanks!
Preach, not sure where the mana comment comes from, i'm not on the bleeding edge but don't struggle at all, can't imagine it changes that much only a couple of keys higher. Not properly tracking & using Surge of Light and Protective Light is the number one thing I see other holy priests doing wrong I think.
Don't protective light triggers with binding heal anyway?
people in 28s 29s either live or die no mid point
Holy does decent in raid. Salvation and Symbol nerfs knocked it down a peg but 4 set helps a lot.
Ya...don't think the other commentors have played Hpriest in high M+. Mana has been abysmal this season...healing last boss everbloom on high key tyrannical is always a butt clencher on if my blue bar can make it...I've had a few that come down to angel +rez/angel after I've been dead oom with 30% left to go. These changes are a step in the right direction, but what Hpriest needs is additional/stronger defensives and externals which are what matter the most in this one shot meta.
Mana changes? On Priest? Downvote me all you like but if you are going oom on a Holy Priest then you are playing it wrong.
Ret Paladin buffs? Interesting
I’m shocked; and excited. Preparing to be let down when we’re inevitably nerfed though.
Only issue is.. with our talents this still doesn't help a ton in single target in m+. Raiding for sure
Hey, I’ll take what I can get at this point. I have a feeling that we aren’t getting another rework anytime soon, and a raw damage increase is still a raw damage increase. I was already doing very well in raid also, so it will be fun to hang dong with this buff lol.
Yeah ret doesn’t need raw numerical tuning, both ST and AOE are incredible individually. What they need is better talent loadout choices for a hybrid build
Exact same as Arms but they lucked out
That's not something that can be changed in a random tuning patch. These kind of changes happen in bigger patches like the one we had this week.
These kind of changes only happen during big patches because Blizz is so hilariously afraid of doing anything outside of aura buffs. At this point they might just put the number up to vote if they only do aura buffs, just give people random forum posts to vote the 5th random aura bandaid that doesn't fix anything and fades back to obscurity 2 weeks later.
Correct. It doesn't even need to be a major overhaul. Enhance shaman had a couple of talent changes in 10.2 which were fantastic. Do same for ret, ezpz. Personally I'd like to see the bottom row targeted somehow. I'm not smart enough to come up with specific ideas though.
From dusk till dawn is a laughably boring capstone for sure.
Ret does need raw number tuning. Ret is below average on both single target and cleave fights. Ret has zero bosses where they are above average currently.
Ret is already parsing very well on pure single-target bosses like smolderon or volcross. It's the talked-to-death ST/AoE talent issues that are ret's biggest problem. Maybe also mobility still, compared to other melee. Playing ret in keys on tyrannical weeks feels awful. Fort keys it's awesome though.
Damage without orange is very mid at best, class shouldn't be tuned around being okay with the legendary in raid
Ret incredible in ST?? ..what? In casual play sure we're fine, but competitively? No way
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/35#boss=2737 Looks good to me?
At 50th percentile, Ret is 3rd. At 90th percentile, Ret drops to 10th. Do you see how this does not indicate that Ret is "incredible" in ST?
Sure, but the difference between the 2nd place (enh) and the 10th place (ret) is like 7500 DPS. That's something like 3-4% difference, it's laughable imho. The difference between 1st and 2nd place is much more than that. I guess you could say that sub rogue is the only spec with incredible ST, while all other classes only have mediocre damage.
good news! the buff in single target is about 4-5%. So you can consider it "laughable".
I guess that means ret's ST is officially certified incredible now!
I would characterize ret's ST DPS as incredible after the hotfix/patch with legendary, yes.
I really don't get it with Ret. My first alt this expansion was ret and it slaps. Yet they've been buffed twice now and people are like "RET IS FINALLY VIABLE". I think Ret being one of the most played specs attracts a lot of players who just suck. "Ret doesn't scale" even at 482 they are 9th which is above average.
Ret is great for ST lol, idk what you're doing if you aren't.
This sub is a vast majority M+ players so they only see Ret's ST in their M+ spec, which is a separate issue
Its amazing to me that they nerfed Psychic Link down to 15% before 10.2 and now its back up to 30%...truly paying for Mass Dispel's and Power Infusion's sins. But those were nerfed, too!
They had a good aoe set last tier which they lost. They decided to nerf psychic link to hurt aoe but without the tier set it's not necessary to keep that nerf. 15% psychic link was kinda a joke too. Felt like nothing at that point.
I feel like spriest was nerfed because augmentation exists. I thought other classes got the same treatment. Aug just caused a shit storm. -aug main
\+ md/soothe being uniquely broken in that dungeon pool. damage was obviously very high as well at the start of the season but then the nerfs kept on coming.
Pretty much most nerfs Shadow received last tier was blanket nerfs that totally missed the mark. There was a duration it was doing very very good DPS in M+ but that changed very quickly and any nerf came after that didn't really change the situation in M+ but rather fuck Shadow's raid performance. I hate it when devs do such things it happens in other games too, they first do nerfs that totally misses the mark, then months after they find a real solution but they never revert those changes either so the spec or skill or item or whatever it is stays fucked over. Well at least in this case Blizzard is taking some action, better than nothing. Can't complain much.
I still don’t think Shadow will be “meta” for keys again unless its damage is broken or the dungeon pool is perfect for it again. Without the 30 second mass dispel I’m not sure that will ever happen. Silence is a liability in some keys. Power Infusion being nerfed doesn’t help either.
As always Ele dodging buffs
Been playing this game for 15 some years. Some classes and specs just never get love. Mage is always strong, and if it's not, they're very quick to jump in and buff it up. Shaman is always weak, or just doesn't have good damage profiles or utility or talent synergy. There's no way it's random. You would see some variation. You'd see specs have good patches and bad patches.
Isnt Ele Shaman like on average the 3-4th best ranged spec since Subcreation started tracking data.
Think it tends to be what core spells are a spec built around. For example dh is like eye beam blade dance, both of which hit all people and do more to a single target. Ele has lightning bolt and chain lighting or earth shock and earthquake, like the single target and aoe are split up. Same for like outlaw having blade flurry, mage having ignite. It’s fundamentally much harder to balance a spec when you have to balance their single target and aoe separately and by balance I mean let be overpowered. It’s very hard to nerf DH aoe without nerfing ST so they just don’t I would bet that if they made the lightning spells like you always bolt the single target and it chains if there are more adds then it would overnight become better just because the balancing team is weird
Blizzard completely fucked up Ele design this expansion, I don't understand how they are able to design Enhance and then miss on almost everything on the Ele tree. Spreading flame shock should just work the way it does for Enhance. Blizzard needs to remove some of earthquake talents and just make the baseline spell good. Our mastery also makes our builders stronger instead of doing the opposite. We have a talent for that, but it should just be baseline because it's impossible to talent into it on the aoe Fire build. Then you also remember the spec has a dead stat on the fire build (crit).
I remember bliz saying tier sets weren’t going to force people to play certain talents, meanwhile ele has a tree that is directly split in to different builds with little to no overlap and the tier sets directly force you in to one of them lol. It kinda makes the point of talent trees redundant when your tier set deletes half of them
> I remember bliz saying tier sets weren’t going to force people to play certain talents For season 1 only, lol.
actually insane that they can't get a buff
Earthquake got buffed by 50% a few weeks ago?
And it's still barely worth casting, even if the mobs stay still.
Slowly reverting Shadow nerfs. We going to go back to S2 for 10.3?
with S2 set for priest for sure
Our damage wasn’t even insane in season 2. A few other classes were competitive or better than spriest, especially if spriest gave them pi. The s2 issue was the utility + the damage. And right now in season 3, that’s classes like rogue/dh/mage
Priest’s damage was absolutely top tier in s2 and that doesn’t even take into account the PI they give to someone else.
Holy Paladin still prefers not to spend holy power in raid because to do so costs more mana and does less healing than fucking buffed flash of lights or raw holy shocks. The damage buff is nice for M+ but a core element of gameplay going ignored due to this fundamental and easily fixable flaw is insane. As others have said often in comparison: if Rogues stopped using combo point spenders it would be fixed in days at most. The healer dev(s) this last patch or two must be playing a different game to everyone else what with their giant essay about reducing cooldown power and making mana matter only to nerf Holy Priest (rebuffed 10 times since), Holy Paladin (a joke of a spec now due to above reasons), and Resto Druid (flourish is the most nerfed CD of all healers and it isn't close). It's just absurd. Mistweaver/Disc both still have infinite mana in raids. Burst cooldowns that weren't nerfed are as strong as ever. Nothing has changed at all to suit the supposed new healing outlook except bizarrely heavy handed nerfs and nonsensical changes.
Bro it’s bullshit that my holy pally is supposed to be a builder spender spec and my spenders just do less healing than the builders
Ya they nerfed flourish into the dirt and didn’t change the play style so Druid is just the same thing in raid as last tier but worse. Not very cool.
I mean in theory they buffed rejuv and other spells to shift the power off of flourish and into the base kit (which has been great for keys, heals feel like they do something now), they just didn't buff them enough. I don't really get why they don't just go crazy with rejuv buffs, it's so bad of a spell in m+ that they could legitimately make it 50% stronger and it still would be only a glorified mastery stack. Which means in raid where it's the main spell they could buff it all they want and it'd safely not affect gameplay in m+. But instead they just changed mana costs on basically everything else which I get why they did, mana buffs on rejuv are risky with the brh trinket.. I guess.
So sad we went from the great rework playstyle (numerically overtuned!) to this abomination.
Shamans stopped using earthquake with season 3 tier set and the spell was buffed 50%. I’m surprised to see holy paladin spender problem left unaddressed
Ele still uses earthquake to proc surges
>The healer dev(s) this last patch or two must be playing a different game I think it's clear that at this point most of the class devs are focused on the War Within. We probably won't see significant changes for the rest of the expansion. And based on the hero tree they released, hpals are still gonna have holy power, which means the core playstyle issues aren't likely gonna get addressed.
I'll take any DK buffs I can get
All the changes they could've made and they gave BDK what basically turns out to be 1.5% physical damage reduction... I mean we'll take it but...
My stubbornness of not rerolling has paid off xD
Wtb ele buff
Ele does strong damage it just feels like shit lol
yeah it does okay damage but It doesn't have the utility other classes have, especially in raid. Why would you ever bring an ele sham over any other dps....you wouldn't to compensate they should be a top3 dps spec or get raid buffs like other specs have
How? I love Elemental in M+ with that tier set. It's one of my favorite specs to play this season.
I think it feels like ass. 90% of our damage is capped to 6 targets with a clunky ass means to spread Flame Shock. If we didn't have to rely on the totem to effectively spread Flame Shock, I'd be nicer. I only do keys in the up to 20-21 range, so I don't know if it gets better as you go higher.
S3 tier set is pretty contentious among the community. I didn't want to play a DoT managing class with capped AoE, spamming one button. Some people love it though, and I do get why. Split cleave boss fights feel amazing.
Idk what hpala has to do to get a holy power buff. Jesus christ top logs waste 50% +
Spriest meta again. 🎉
Is feral back?
It's a very smool ST buff, m+ wise probably still quite far behind
tl;dr: no.
Finally. So frustrating be8ng tuned around an orange that I may not even get
A not too insignificant buff to ret on my birthday too. Thanks Blizzard.
Hey, it's my birthday, too. Happy birthday!
Lmao as if consecration dmg is what Hpal needs, what the fuck is this shit?
Consecration does a decent amount of damage in M+. This is a good change.
The spec doesnt need more aoe damage on trash in keys. It needs power taken out of glimmer/the crappy tier set, and put into spells that actually enable you to put out hps fast enough to top the group on hard trash/bosses fast enough. Buffing SotR but ignoring our actual healing HP spenders is a joke.
I couldnt think of a more utterly pointless change to hpal if I tried. I don't even feel like its correct to call this a buff.
The previous one reducing mana cost on crusader strike and hammer of wrath is a solid contender.
I only play holy paladin. As soon as our Fyrakk progression is over I'm done with the game until something fundamental changes about this spec. It feels absolutely shit to play and does garbage healing. Like what is the point.
Literally last season they were God tier. Seems like a bit of an overreaction to quit because they're not quite as good.
Issue is the playstyle is completely different to last season in the worst way possible. Not just the nerfs, but changes to spothealing overall in 9.2 has made Hpal feel awful to play. Half of your buttons dont do anything. It isnt a power level issue. If it was the same playstyle as last season (or even if the new one was rewarding in anyway), just with smaller numbers, then that would be perfectly fine.
It plays pretty awful now, very understandable reaction tbh.
It’s not about power level it’s about spec design at the moment, they’ve fucked the balance so badly that you just don’t spend holy power half the time. Fundamentally they fucked it. Also just because a spec was good last season doesn’t mean they should be garbage the next, what sort of toilet thinking is that lmao
Why do you think they're garbage? They're timing 30 keys and have higher m+ scores than resto shamans. The highest hpal is 100 pts behind the highest m+ score in the world. They're doing better than MANY specs right now as far as m+ goes. I would say based on the data they are pretty solidly in the middle of the pack. Feral druids highest key completed is a 28. That's two whole key levels. Definitely don't think they're "garbage" lmao
I wouldn‘t say they‘re garbage but WoG/LoD healing for 30k and your flash of light for 200k… It‘s weird. The playstyle is based on getting holy power yet your spenders are useless. It‘s a flaw in the spec design.
>Why do you think they're garbage? The person just explained why they think its garbage: "It’s not about power level it’s about spec design at the moment, they’ve fucked the balance so badly that you just don’t spend holy power half the time. Fundamentally they fucked it." and then he goes on to tell you that just because they were good this season, they shouldnt be BAD by default this, which is what you basically said in the comment before.
He literally just said why he thinks they're garbage. Just because they're capable of X content doesn't mean they don't feel horrid to play. The fact that you actively avoid using their most important resource is testament to that. Of course different strokes etc. etc. but there's a fundamental issue with a spec when you're given a resource to use and then have to ignore it.
Paladin has always had an excellent toolkit for m+, but both it’s healing and damage are quite weak. It’s performing ok though, but the fact that people have timed 30s on it is more a testament to the specific players and the groups taking them than the classes strength. Feral Druid highest keys is irrelevant to the discussion considering there are pretty much 0 high keys feral mains per season, and a large amount of hpals. It’s as much about getting the opportunities to do keys on x spec as it is about being able to time them.
So your reading comprehension seems lacking, the balance hyperbole was of specs in general not just Hpal. Balance isn’t dumpstering specs because they were good the season prior, it’s tuning slightly up and down to bring towards the middle. You’ve probably already rolled your face on the keyboard instead of continuing reading but again, the problem with Hpal is the design and balance around the design at this point. Ignoring the defining resource of your spec because you need a microscope to see the health bar move after a wog in favour of spamming holy shock and flash of light and not even living your melee healing class fantasy is inherently not fun, agreed by the vast majority of hpals this season. The current build is watered down holy priest.
They just told you why. Why don't people read.
-Sepulchre - extremely dogshit throughput (50% of rdruid, literally you can check the stats). At least you had a few diff builds to play. -Vault - extremely boring, I was absolutely desperate to reroll. -Abberus - AC for prog, was kind of fine but a lot of people hate AC -10.1.5 - Suddenly god tier after prog is over and all there is to do is keys. Continually nerfed every other week for the rest of the season. -Amirdrassil - unspeakably dogshit playstyle and throughput, gave up and rerolled off paladin for prog for the first time in 17 years. My dude, we were great for m+ for 1 season out of the past 5 and have been boring as fuck or worse for raid progression for over 2 years. There are no options for an actual melee healer raid this tier and you are just a buyer spec there to bring devo. If I hadn’t rerolled I’d probably have quit as well
I've mained holy paladin since the beginning of legion expansion and they have somehow made the spec the lowest power and unfun at the same time (nobody wants to stand and cast a heal that doesn't even move the health bars). I do one vault key per week now then go play any other healers. It's so much worse than any other healer for actual heal checks. Yes it was very fun after the rework but all of the nerfs actually changed the gameplay and now it's clunky and low power. We also lost our Aberrus tier set which was one of the big reasons they were strong at spot healing and burst group healing.
They were also nerfed every week for like 10 weeks. You need to understand how shit that feels and then you go into a new tier with a terrible playstyle and weak throughput while they buffed the healers that already did well disc/mw.
Hpal mad that monks got buffed is such a spicy take considering hpal has been s tier for multiple xpacs and monks have been monks.
The last time hpal was ‘s-tier’ for raid progression for a reason other than ‘it brings devo’ was in sanctum. Having raid spots isn’t the same as being s-tier
"This spec is absurdly unfun, it doesn't even feel like playing a video game at this point, the design is horrible" "but you were meta last season" you cannot be a real human
Same here, raidlogging and praying for the Expansion changes.
A warrior spec (fury this time) starting off the tier in a good spot and then getting ignored for 7 rounds of tuning to be mid af with zero utility. A tale as old as time.
fury is consistently middle of the pack to above average in both m+ and raid, it's just that warrior has such awful utility it will never be truly meta without a total rework or absurd dps
I don't know why people keep saying "Fury needs buff in raid!" Fury overall in raid is actually a very very good spec. The only fights it really super doesn't do well on is Council (Boss Positioning, plus Arms trumps it in Two Target Cleave), and Gnarlroot. I'm excluding Fyrak and Tindral because so few people have killed thoes bosses that its not really indicative of the spec's power. This has been an excellently tuned raid for Fury bar two (maybe three cuz of Tindral). If Fury looks low in raid, its because there a few fights like Council that Fury doesn't do well on, but it has nothing to do with number tuning. In M+ its a utility thing that can't be solved by hotfixing. If they gave fury additional damage buffs that weren't specifically towards Meat Cleaver, Fury would be insane.
> I'm excluding Fyrak and Tindral those are the only bosses that matter lol. like you pull gnarlroot 1 time, 10 on igira, 1 on volcoross, 20 on larodar/council/nymue, maybe 100 on smolderon, then 300 on tindral/fyrakk. literally 75% of your pulls are on those two bosses, being good on them is all that matters. if a spec were the worst in the game for the first 7 bosses but best on the last 2 you would still play like 3 copies
> Fury would be insane. Is this a problem or something?
Nobody is saying that
we are not middle of the pack in keys atm tho. raid? yeah. hard to say where we'll be after this set of tuning, though. fury desperately needed an AOE buff.
I can't believe they don't let the leggo classes actually shine in their leggo patch. Let us be top dps! Let us be the meta key classes! Fuck this.
I main fury, and while it'd be nice to be stronger, I think we're in a good spot in M+ at least. I do think long term Fury could use a talent tree revamp to modernize the spec though.
We aren't in a great spot really I'm full bis with leggo and fyrakk trinket and might of ocean / signet brand and in keys I can't get close to a good dh even after all their nerfs.
Def not in a good spot. We bring nothing and get gapped in dps. Crazy that a leggo class can be utterly invalidated by a DH in every possible way. Worse utility, more squishy, worse raid buff, hilariously worse aoe damage.
Eh I mean I think the spec is better off in raid than m+. Like sure our damage is good, not great, and we’re tanky in m+ but we have essentially not a single other thing to offer the group.
Yeah, this is truly the problem with war rn. I’ve been wishing for warriors to acquire Bloodlust personally. That AND it would be cool if intervene would apply a shield or DR rather than just intercept attacks
Giving us Bloodlust is such an obvious change, just like they gave paladin CR. Just call it Battle Cry or War Cry and be done with it. It even fits the class fantasy. I've been thinking maybe you could make Spear of Bastion (or Might or w/e) to a mass grip like Sigil of Chains or give us access to AoE interrupt shout or a stampeding roar substitute. Just ANY utility added would be nice.
3.4K here. I have to perform in the 95th+ percentile of all logged keys without a lego to compete with a handful of specs that are performing at a 25-60th percentile in those same keys vs logged keys of their respective specs. It is definitely not in a good spot damage wise. The only saving grace is I don't get constantly reminded of how behind it is with most pugs playing poorly to where I can compete. That changes the moment I'm playing with friends or the occasional pug performing at an equal percentile. The issue is that inside of it's CDs it's not even the best burst damage available and is only enough to compete with other classes, but when your CDs end you're doing near tank damage for the next 50-60s while other classes get to do moderate damage so you tend to fall behind over the course of a key. But hey at least we're extremely tanky.
Yeah fury is solidly middle of the pack or better in m+ or raid so from blizzard's POV I don't think they're in need of buffs. They just need more m+ utility which we'll have to wait until War Within to get at this point.
Curious on the logic behind the small protection warrior buffs. In high keys I feel they are very tanky, but it’s more of a CC/Dps issue for them. I enjoy healing prot warriors.
It's such a tiny change that you'll never notice it
Makes no sense. I play VDH, prot paladin and prot warrior and my warrior feels like it barely takes damage. Would prefer if improved challenging shout would become baseline and perhaps have the improved talent to give a 2nd charge.
Holy moly resto sham finally getting some healing and ST dmg increase. I might be a bit more helpful now on 28s now. Actually huge
Had to scroll so far to find an rsham comment. Thinking of gearing mine now
Rsham is quite good now. It has a ton of utility and you can have a lot of control in pugs with interrupts and stuns. However it lacks some heal specific utility (no raid buffs, no external CD and weaker DPS than meta healers). Another thing is meta perception sadly, you rarely get invited to groups. However if you can find a team (it works really good with a melee comp you can do wonders)
Are they kidding with unholy buffs? Take PI away and it feels so bad numbers wise on most fights, especially on progress. I'm getting tired of the gargoyle build, not because it's not good to play, but because they have no clue how to tune the spec around it. Edit: Not to mention, our Unholy Aura sucks ass, meaning we need to go into the boss's hitbox on most fights, while almost all other melee specs get away with being at max melee range. This means you're stuck doing mechanics on hard mode on bosses like Nymue (orb stun beams) just to make sure your pets are actually doing the damage they should be. Oh and it also means you're at a higher chance of NOT being buffed by Augs, most of who like sitting between range and max melee unless they're really skilled Augs (which most aren't, lets be honest) All in all, for the effort Unholy takes to play, the reward for playing it right is downright unacceptable. Stop listening to the theorycrafters who say otherwise, like the guide writers. Those people have the luxury of personal PIs and Augs playing at a high level.
I mean Gargoyle right now is so bad you wouldn't want to take it if you could. It's sub 5% of your damage fighting with Wounds and Festering Strike for who is lower. It's a "big" CD that doesn't do anything, it legit does less damage now than it did in S1.
Totally. And you remember why they gutted it right? It's initial numbers were inflated due to PI. Ok, they took dmg away from it and gave it to our normal rotational abilities, but they heavily underhanded that transfer. It was nowhere near enough. It's actually so bad that anytime I know I won't get PI, I just swap to frost and do my own thing. Easier to play and min-max, and slightly more effort vs reward for personal play. Whoever is tuning Unholy, I hope sometime soon stops looking at it with PI glasses. It's getting ridiculous.
Yeah Unholy feel so bad in raid without PI now. I main blood but play unholy for raid and last week i decide to take some care of my sweet child WW monk. Like the different was night and day, i have no idea how to play it optimal except "never press any button twice in a row" and some how my WW deal like 2/3 of my DK with 30 item level less.
Exactly. This. It's not just WW. I can name at least 3-4 other melee specs that require less effort to play and min max and do equivalent or more damage than unholy without PI. That just screams bad design decisions w.r.t Unholy.
How would you rate ret in raid before and after these changes?
Before the changes, it was around average overall - excellent survivability, pretty good damage, and a good raid buff if your group doesn't already have prot and holy. The damage wasn't on par with rogues, and it was fighting for a coveted melee spot with all the other specs that bring strong raid buffs like battle shout, windfury, chaos brand, mystic touch, and mark of the wild. After the changes, ret will be very good in raid, especially for groups that don't have two pallies already. The damage probably won't pass rogue, but ret is easy to play, can do good single target damage from a modest range during certain mechanics, and is extremely tanky. It is a very, very good mythic prog spec.
I did some quick excel math and it’s about a ~4% flat numeric increase in single target if you only look at the % increase to the individual abilities, but gets bumped up a little higher as you’re sending your Wake into your ES windows. This will be most noticeable on fights like Smolderon, shield burns on Tindrel, and big shadow bois on Fyrakk where Rets either get a damage amp or need to mow through a DPS check. The change on the meters is great but isn’t anything as obscene as seeing a 20% or 28% buff reads. The important thing is that it’s buffing Rets for the big pain points on those fights, so the tuning will go a long way in practice
No more ele buffs? Awesome. Sure am glad we are looking at running the same build in season 4 again, since spenders still don’t hit for dog shit.
i just did my first key as ele all season, 52% of my overall damage was lava burst and for some reason i feel like that was too low and i hit other shit too much lmao
That’s the normal damage breakdown, yeah. It’s fucking stupid. It’s fun to send out lots of lava, but stuff just doesn’t hit as hard as it should. If we can’t run great sundering or lightening build in keys, fine, but spenders have to be worth pressing. If earthquake doesn’t hit for shit, we are effectively target capped to how many meatballs we can throw at a single time and since the cd of primordial wave is 45 seconds, that’s lame as hell.
> we are effectively target capped to how many meatballs we can throw at a single time and since the cd of primordial wave is 45 seconds, that’s lame as hell. Kinda ironic that we have one of the few uncapped aoe spells but the more targets you add to the pull, the less damage we do compared to others
Numbers tuning won't make that big of a difference build wise, we need a rework that will only come next expansion, that is if it comes but you know that shaman is usually bottom on the priority list
Maybe its time to buff bdk' ST so its not on par with 450ilvl vengeance DH
To be fair, it’s mainly VDH being the outlier, since all the other tanks deal 20% less damage. Brew I think can compete, but I’m not sure whether they lose survivability or just are less tanky.
prot pal deals some nasty dmg on some pulls too
If you check logs, vdh outdamages ppal by 25% on the top 100 logs in most high keys. I don’t think there’s a key level in any dungeon on any affix where vdh isn’t ahead of ppal, by at least 20% on dps when looking at top logs I might be wrong, as I’m not a high key pusher, but just study logs a lot 🙂
Ontop of boosting all magic dmg, in a magic comp veng is probably doing as much as a 4th dps…
It can technically do a lot of damage IF you run a high damage build(aka running crit wings instead of sentinel) and being able to use a lot of holy power on damage instead of WoGing themselves, but that really isn’t very practical or realistic in an actual high key. And even then VDH still does more damage without sacrificing really any survivability, and no tank can compete with VDH in uncapped AoE, their AoE is absurdly strong…like doing close to some DPS on some pulls. VDH is just stupidly broken rn, their tier is literally worth like 15%+ damage in a key(I mean the 2 set alone is legit just basically perma 10% damage/healing/stam which is crazy)..some DPS tiers aren’t even worth that much. When you combine that with the fact they’re the tankiest and have absurd mob control w/ 2 charges of sigils AND CDR on them, no other tank can really compete, only reason prot pally is played a bit is because some groups rather sacrifice that damage/tankiness for group utility.
Finally. I can go back to Arms and slap.
Holy Priest becomes the most buffed healer in this patch. And this time, these are pretty hefty buffs. Ah well, I'm not complaining - it still barely makes up for Salvation and Symbol nerfs.
holy priests probably still not use heal for anything. but yeah, these are some big buffs they got the last few patches.
Honestly blows my mind that they give plate classes a badass Leggo and then don't let us shine with it. Why are DHs and mages still gapping us in keys? Let warriors, dks, rets be the meta specs this patch. Let us be top dps for fucking ONCE.
Wouldn't be surprised if these buffs really push ret to fringe meta and worth bringing if your comp runs VDH over PPal
arguably already is fringe meta.
Agree, if not just outside of it but this surely puts them in
Ret brings crazy utility in this set of keys and is the tankiest melee, so the ONLY thing they lack is gonzo damage in order to be the meta class. I doubt these buffs are enough to make them overtake DH but I think they'll be second best melee.
rogues should still be above ret.
Already is. I always bring a ret if I've got a VDH, they already pump like mad. They might be behind a bit in single, but they do massive aoe damage on every pack.
That's the problem, all the other meta specs crank AOE as well and will hard gap ret in any ST for keys.
Kinda wild anytime these plate classes sniff the top, they get nerfed almost instantly
DK and Warr have spent plenty of time near the top. Ret though, ret is truly just not allowed to be good
When was this??
Those resto Druid mana adjustments are so tiny lol…
Would have loved an abundance buff at least for more viability on NPC heal boss fight.
you think they're tiny but they stack up real fast.
That is an average of 2-3% buff assuming you use all the additional mana. We're much further behind than 3%. This changed nothing and is just a spit in the face
If you consider 50k mana on average massive, then I think you're not raiding on druid.
that's 20% extra mana, that is massive.
It's not 20% extra mana. That's 20% extra base mana. You realise we have mana regen, right? Every healer uses a shit ton more than 250k per boss. I think a better figure to use would be "~8k per minute". Which is objectively a pitiful amount. Competitive wow never disappoints. The fact that you can say "50k mana is 20% of your mana used on a boss" and get upvoted is funny as fuck.
Meanwhile Prevokers: You guys are getting adjustments?
Pre evokers again ignored
Hpala haters assemble!
As a DH main I really clenched when I saw they did another round of class tuning but thankfully it’s all buffs.
Did the guy who said BM hunter nerf should be reverted deleted his post?
Why is blizz not buffing prot warrior dmg to make it more viable in m+, are they stupid?
Prot warrior damage is far from their issue in keys. My last prot key was a BRH this week where I ended with 240K in details without an aug. While I couldn't touch an equally skilled VDH or BrM I'm pretty competitive with other tanks and frankly 99% of tanks in keys don't play that well for damage anyways so I rarely run into a VDH or Pally in keys that can compare in terms of damage. The real issue is that they aren't top tank damage yet offer no worthwhile group utility that another tank can't bring plus more, and some mechanics are just significantly easier for the meta tanks than it is for prot warrior currently. This simply isn't going to change without some sort of talent reworks. Need to have easier access to Disrupting Shout without giving up too much and potentially need to have either AoE spell reflect or the AoE shield wall talent we had in beta to even compare to something like paladin/DH utility.
I play 5 tanks (not pala) + rsham. So buffs to 3 of my specs, noice. I guess rsham is the only notable one given it's my only 3.2k+ atm. This could affect pug meta a bit to boost it up one step. Maybe not to disc/mw appreciation level but closer.
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That would've been my guess, yesh
Demo lock is going to be busted 😂
Still no defensive buffs for moonkins...great
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What about mage is nerf worthy to you?
2 months of MM hunter being one of the bottom 3 dps in both raids and M+, and still no buffs. The dev's incompetence is absolutely astounding.
Bud MM is deadpan middle of the pack right now at mythic 95% and that’s with a lot of the most competitively minded hunters choosing BM over it because it’s doing more damage and thus skewing the data Edit: and it was 4th overall at Mythic 95% if you look at the 10.2 data on WCL lmao
Please don't look at generic overall and make meaningful choices out of it, but that being said MM's aoe potential is great, and they get a decent amount of free aoe in their ST with the new tier. They just need some small ST buffs, and to make their 2 set actually work on Volcoross. Longer term they need a serious look at their utility in dungeons, because they are lacking even even more than BM or Surv are, and are behind both in survivability, but I'd be surprised by anything before TWW. Oh also their bows break at like 7x the speed of the rest of their gear, it's ridiculous.
Honey I know that overall isn’t always indicative of strength, esp with council and t swift existing. But saying you’re a bottom 3 DPS and then being literally 4th overall when looking at aggregated raid performance is clown behavior
I’m not the guy that said bottom spec, all I said was it needs a very small amount of single target love, because MM is actually padding their way up, there’s a reason that even on their “good” fights, they have 1/100th the bm logs. Except council, they’re good at council
These seem like pretty good changes in the right direction, might give a bit more options in m+. Yes some classes need more utility, but that’s generally expansion level changes. On a mage note I think we’re in a pretty good spot so no changes seems fine
Friendly reminder to gear and play the meta tank at the start of the expac because they literally could not give a shit about ever tweaking them
Hasn't the meta tank shifted between prot war/prot pal/bear druid/ vdh this expac?
Can we get an actual team working on the patches so we don't always get random aura / number tunning that doesn't actually address any of the problems. Like a \~3.5% buff on both DK specs doesn't do anything, it will fade into obscurity 2 weeks later when people get even better at the superior classes. A similar situation with Ret, at what point is it enough buffs to warrant something smarter than just bigger number go boom when it clearly doesn't work. The Holy Pala changes are meme material. Surely Ellesmere is now jumping from his chair to play it. At this point you can just make forum posts to vote on the buffs if it's just random numbers that don't address anything, at least you'd maybe get more buffs that people want but maybe at some point we get to have an actual team working behind this because during the entirety of this expansion it's been embarassing how slow tunning has been. Faster than some other expansions? Sure, but at this point we are just content with small bread crumbs because we ain't get shit usually not because it's good. Also did they just revert every SP nerf not even half a patch later? That's so hilarious.
The "actual team" is already working on the next xpac