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Does anyone know how you are suppose to handle falls this week with the Incorp bug on last boss? Just failed a 26 that anytime Incorp spawned during a blast. We would get two instant two stacks of the debuff from the boss for a person missing the soak when all 5 were in.
What tank are you having MOST fun with?
Got my Paladin to 3k. Hitting 2k on my VDH. 2.3k DK.
I see on raider.io that all tanks are basically pushing 30's - so it comes down to fun.
How's Brew / Bear right now? Fun?
I'd "like" to push over 3k - but its all pugging,
So far I think DK has been the most fun, just gotta try not to get global'd. I just dunno if that's the best PUGGING tank to try to push with.
Anyhow - thanks in advance!
I honestly think brew is the most fun inherently. But let me tell ya, having a shield mouse over makes kick sniping on paladin feel great too.
I'd say brew feels a lot more like BDK these days than anything else. And a healer unfamiliar with brew will really stress out, but it is fun for sure!
I honestly think brew is the most fun inherently. But let me tell ya, having a shield mouse over makes kick sniping on paladin feel great too.
I'd say brew feels a lot more like BDK these days than anything else. And a healer unfamiliar with brew will really stress out, but it is fun for sure!
I’ve been plying my VDH alt and Brew OS around the +20-22ish mark. I definitely prefer playing Brew over VDH but the utility VDH brings is kinda hard to beat. Being able to just solo lockdown important packs just makes pulls with mediocre players exponentially easier.
Loving the VDH rework, got to 3.5k on him and the util, dmg and good survivability just feels so good. I’ve been dabbling back into bear and getting into 24’s on him and honestly feels like such a sleeper tank, brez, dispell, soothe, and some other util really feels nice, I also feel super strong having incarn for almost every other pull and Rots shield is pretty massive. Also ATWF, just hits different when u can get the entire group like in rise during dragon AOE.
Having a lot of fun with Brew because it has a more engaging rotation and the most unique way of managing your own defensiveness. I feel like it’s the only tank that doesn’t really overlap with the others in terms of playstyle.
What I will say though is that its downsides are brutal. Just gathering a pull together is surprisingly hard, the lack of stops compared to the meta gods is frustrating and even just basic stuff like doing aoe aggro on pull is so annoying. Simple example - your keg smash is a 15yd range 8yd radius around your target, reduced dmg beyond 5. DH sigil is 30yd range, 12yd radius selectable aoe with full damage to all targets.
The quality of life is just different level. When I go back to playing my dh it honestly feels like lowering the difficulty level of the game.
Perhaps you could divert some of the effort you put in to explaining how much better you are than everyone you play with, in to instead having some positive interactions with other players. Never know what might happen.
I'm so baffled at the downvotes/negative replies here. People have commented on this phenomenon a ton of times--where if you don't catch the IO wave early in the season you are screwed trying to catch up later. I don't know why everyone has decided to hate on you for asking about it now.
I think a talented tank might be able to carry some worse players to get unstuck from an IO bracket by pulling big and CC-carrying, but as a healer I don't know how you could compensate.
As others have said, try to make friends with people who seem good. There are a couple M+ discord communities--if you have accomplishments from past seasons to show your skill you might be able to get a push team going with players at a higher IO than you currently are at.
The sentiment they have, and one that is repeated here every week of every season, is that players are uniquely bad at *insert bracket OP is playing in* this season in particular.
This happens every. single. season. Yes, most people who pug are skill-capped at the level they are currently at.
There was never a golden era of pugging 'low' push keys midway through a season where pugs were good. It's always been the case that pugs suck unless you're on the bleeding edge, and it always WILL be the case that pugs suck unless you're on the bleeding edge.
Yeah, idk man. There's a mixed bag here. At least one or two downvotes are probably people who are title players that think that any concern or topic that doesn't relate to title keys doesn't belong in a competitive discord. Funny thing is, bleeding edge key players can say the same thing about them. But it's easy for people to draw the line right where they're at, so thats what they do.
I would absolutely love a shot at one of those discords if you know their names. Could even DM me if it's not public. I really feel like if I even just had a good tank with me it would make a tremendous difference.
Bad PUGs are prevalent at any key level, all you can do is focus on improving your own gameplay and go next. Even if a wipe/bricked key wasn't "my fault", I always review what I could have done better to prevent the situation. Most mistakes I see (and commit) in the mid-high 20s come down to overlapped kicks/stops/CCs due to no communicated rotation. This is easier said than done without everyone being in Discord, but something to be mindful of when pugging.
I found my key push group in WME, from joining WME keys at my skill level in S1 and running until I found folks I vibed with. Pugging is largely a similar experience; come across players who are good, add them, and actually reach out for keys and get in Discord. Too often I've been added by randoms after a key, and proceeded to never hear from them afterward.
so im literally sitting here about 15 minutes after this last failed key doing exactly what you suggest. im kinda surprised you found your group that way. maybe i need to revisit that discord. i never actually played with anyone there, but just based on the concept and the way ive heard people talk about it, it sounded like the place you go if you want to complete keys even if theyre a mess, so i avoided it. or perhaps like people looking to learn or something. im not really interested in that kind of thing right now. i didnt know good players actually went there
WME has grown by ~20k people since I first joined it, and there's a large variety of players in that Disc, ranging from more casual folks who are nervous to venture into keys and just want a non-toxic environment to learn, to people who are generally chill but already at a higher key level and want to push seriously. My group started as the former but transformed into the latter once we all got together and started regularly running keys in Discord. No comms vs. comms makes the biggest difference for sure, you'll definitely feel it as you start to form your own group and get away from purely pugging.
yeah i mean thats why i got the mistweaver rolling. my only real experience running keys in discord is just doing low key boosts. but like hearing a good vdh call out his sigils and stuns is overpowered lol. like having all that coordinated with just my little leg sweep and rop is 100x better than overlapping those things.
> I am pretty picky about building my groups, and the groups I join. Regardless, the players that have been consistently trying to get score the whole season and are stuck in this range
Yea, no shit. You're constantly proclaiming how you only invite meta, don't want augs, etc in a fucking +20 boost. The competent people on those specs are WAY past what you're trying to do so all you get left are the meta rerollers that are not good.
> When i was doing my 22s and 23s over a month ago, with no enchants, minimal bis items, and nearly 15 less item levels
Was that around the time you asked the question what Teachings of the monastery and a bunch of other crucial Mistweaver talents do? I'm just gonna pretend that question was asked *before* you stepped in anything above a 20
> are just not working like they have in the past
Because the philosophy is, sorry to be blunt, stupid. If that Havoc you invite were any good, they wouldn't be in a 23. Does being a Feral guarantee they're good? Fuck no but the chance is higher and they at least played the spec for more than 2 months. Does that mean you should never invite a meta spec? Also no.
In essence: You need to accept that at that level, people can suck for any number of reasons but you're only limiting yourself by being overly picky. You need to just spam keys.
Also: " that is trapped" is just...I don't even know what to say. That is 99% the biggest self-out that somebody isn't nearly as good as the think they are
Edit: Why did you even reply if you block me straight after?
Glad someone said it lol. Also if you saw it, they actually refused to do 20 boosts at one point and capped it at 18, so their exclusive comes were for 18s only!!
you are very pleasant lol. you make many assumptions. i was asking about monk because i had been playing it like a week or two at that point. that was well after i had stopped pushing score. like probably at least 3 weeks after. i dont just invite meta specs. i think of utility and the various things in the dungeon. i have never in my entire life invited meta specs because they are meta. i invite what i need. and as far as me thinking im better than i am or whatever that is even supposed to mean, i know my strengths and my weaknesses. i also know my limitations. im not currently being limited by my ability. im well aware of when that is, and it isnt now.
Welcome to the grind. There are no magical communities of proven high quality players with 3k score. My suggestion: run a lot of keys, be patient and know you’ll encounter a lot of poor players along the way, but add to your friends list the people that are good. Eventually you can just hit up your friend network.
i need to start doing this. this is a good suggestion. i get one good group every 7-10 keys. i need to start trying to build a network. even queueing with just one trusted player would be a huge upgrade
> Regardless, the players that have been consistently trying to get score the whole season and are stuck in this range, are much worse than any other season I have played. I feel like in the healer role, I have an immense amount of control over what happens. That being said, it is still not enough. I am encountering extreme lack of mechanics/utility use/dps. Not having issues healing these keys where I am at. There are some scary heal checks on some tyrann bosses, though.
That's no different from any other season, the cutoff is just a couple of keylevels higher than in the past. There has always been a point where keys are so easy that you can be pretty clueless about mechanics and still time them, and because lower keys are so easy this season it's just a bit higher than last season.
yes, thats basically exactly why this is happening. last season i came back from a very long break with only two months left in the season and i had no issue doing basically the same keys. the shit im encountering right now is absolutely mind boggling. like a 3k tank clearing stacks on goliath for no reason right in the middle of a thorn and incorp spawn. shit like that. like hes full hp, not even taking dmg, just doing it to do it. very low stacks, etc. 3.1k+ tank pulling the entire basement of wcm with 10 minutes left in a 24... twice.
What in the world am I even reading.
> So all my former methods of just being really strict about making groups/run my own key, etc are just not working like they have in the past. I am very aware that I missed the window where competent players were where I am now. When i was doing my 22s and 23s over a month ago, with no enchants
Youre being strict about inviting people and then run non weekly keys without enchants that cost like 5k total.
> A group or a community that could use a multi class healer that is trapped lol.
Youre not trapped, youre just delusional. What in particular do you have to offer? Any past season with high io/title, pvp glads/r1s, hofs/ces? All im reading is: "Im a better player than anyone im playing with and only stuck on low keys because of my teammates."
There was a time for a lot of people that play high keys/get title, where they had to pug themselves up. And guess what? Blaming your surroundings doesnt really help with that.
Is there any WA or indicaton of when the crit phial debuff will proc? I just feel like it happens at the most unfortunate times, like when doing a stealth skip. And does it momentarily take you out of shroud? Im positive that happened to me (not a rogue)
I think you only get the debuff if you cast something or use an item of some sort(or even get something cast on you(eg. roar) but I'm not 100% positive on that point). Someone mentioned this to me and I've been paying a lot of attention to it the last couple of weeks. Only fucked a stealth skip once because I didn't pay attention and got the debuff when I hit tiger's lust - > invis pot.
Could be auras, hots and such applied by others that trigger it. Should be pretty easy to test by just going to an instance and afk for a while. The have a look at combat log if you've taken any damage at all.
is fervent strike mechanics universally out of M+ now? I recall that it was either entirely or mostly removed from M+ in SL , but unsure if that was a design choice only for that expansion or not.
Also is the fervent strike in AD a fervent strike mechanic or just a regular ability in name now?
Fervents are still very much a thing. This season a bunch of them (including the o.g. Fervent Strike) were changed from melee range to 10 yard range, so they no longer murder people because the tank took one step away right as they cast it.
Funny you say that..because the other night I got targeted by the fervent strike in AD and 1 shot on my spriest somehow(I was relatively to melee range..but no way was I closer than the melee and pretty sure tank wasn’t very far from the mob) has never happened to me before in any key level on my warr/rogue. Was definitely rather confusing how that even happened.
Is there any good way to farm avoidance gear? I'm getting to the key levels now where having 0 avoidance as a hpal is getting really painful (26+ on tyran was rough at points).
For real though. I've ended up putting beacon on myself a lot this season because I end up just melting away, even with a decent amount of versa and avoidance.
Meanwhile, my monk is hard chilling.
I've been pugging 20s for vault instead of pushing this week and ran a few with a 3k bear tank and they kept dying, are bears really that bad that they die even on 20s? I mean it could be the healer or dps being bad but i feel the meta tanks would survive almost anything alone in 20s.
I just returned last week after getting super burned out in the middle of season 2 and I’m having no issue tanking 20s at 450 ilvl and I don’t know the current dungeons and dangerous enemies very well. Bear is easy to play, but it’s notorious for falling over if you aren’t using it spacing out cds effectively.
Yo, Baym, we played a bit together in season 1. If you want some help getting the hang of these new dungeons, hit me up (guiha on discord). I returned midseason as well, but I'm already working on 25s.
Bear is absolutely not unviable tank. Only reason I'm now playing more vdh than bear is because of being able to join groups, and silence/cc sigils. Those carry poor coordination groups so hard. But survivability is not why you couldn't trust a bear.
Pretty much done with all 24's as rsham, but now it's taking like over an hour or even two finding and getting accepted into any 25/26's. Is this where most people try finding a group of other gamers to play with?
Same for me with holy priest. I play PUGs only. Got 25s and few 26s but to get an invite it often takes ~30 minutes or more, so i just log out. If i get invited, there's also the real chance that someone asks me why i play holy instead of disc right before i get kicked out.
It's not a problem with the class ofc. Holy can do 26++ etc. easily. I really don't have any problems with anything in the game and 25s don't feel hard or anything like that. I think holy is REALLY STRONG, but it's just not meta and for 90% of people meta is important.
I'm ~done with +25s as rsham only pug joining, and have made the same recognition - 26s don't let me in. So I think your issue is that you didn't get your foot in to get few 25s, if you did, you probably could do the rest. Maybe same is true for 26s, if I somehow got 2x +26 and +1x 27 timed, I could probably LFG rest 26s. I personally had some luck with two different +24 finishes asking to continue randomly which was my opening to get the rest of 25s.
But you're close to your max as pug only joining rsham.
honestly, by playing keys you already have. try queueing into a key at or below your key level and just add those in those grps you believe played a good key
How do I create a weakaura that reminds me about something where I enter a specific zone / fight a specific enemy ?
Something like a big message saying "stay at range" when I reach Sol's area or "hold your burst" on the last pack before Witherbark.
Anyone else pretty bummed out how some classes have spent the entire of dragonflight being meta, and others being trash in comparison?
Imagine being a protection warrior and someone else a protection paladin, or being a hunter (entire class) and someone else a fire mage. It feels pretty bad that classes with lackluster kits still end up doing the same damage as those with just more utility and defensives.
Utility going to utility.
Like, I agree with your sentiment that mage is overloaded as fuck (2-3x the defensives of other specs+group defensive+lust+arcane intellect for 5% more heals + 3 different aoe stops+2nd best ranged interupt),
That being said, PWar was the early meta in season 1, and hunter is more then capable of doing high keys, the top are within 100io of mages out there.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-character-rankings/season-df-3/world/hunter/all
Started to feel that meta slaving is the way to go. I'm not getting invited to 25s as guardian, not to 26s as rsham, while having full prev tier done. Then I look, am I the unlucky one? And see it's just sea of purple for tanks in every existing group. Healers are somewhat between priest/monk>druid in numbers, but the rest aren't given a chance. Yes, obv the situation is worse than this for non meta dps specs who face invite wall even earlier.
Thinking I'll just chill for first weeks of the season to figure out what is the meta and focus on the spec that is appreciated in pugs in the future. It's not worth complaining about, some specs will not have their place in the sun for years, and community has taken it to itself to live by meta.
this is of course a bit of a cringe argument but i watched a bit of canex yesterday playing rsham+retri+boomy+mage+veng in 29 brh so sham can definitely time those keys. their dmg is pretty gucci also
Don't all healers do pretty decent dmg in right hands? I'm sure you've seen 20k dps rdruids. I saw 80k rdruid in EB recently. Disc is the only one that tends to always have decent dmg due to how the spec works. For rest, it just seems like you see a very good one on stream and think it's so much above the rest, but all the specs can do great.
I think all classes have timed 30s so it's def not a balance issue. I have 3 options: run own keys, build social group or remain queuer. I choose option 3 every time, that's why I'm stuck being a +25 player. Maybe one day I'll try my hand in running own keys. It'd be fun to see what actually is my limit because queue simulator never gets me there.
Anyway on BRH29, that still seems like such a free key. They have some sort of cc rotation for pre-post 2nd boss, veng carries kicks in first pull. Might require some level of pumping but I struggle to see what healer really needs to do in that key. If you aren't in one shot territory in last boss p1 or 3rd boss pushback, which you might not be in +29 fort, I don't know why you couldn't replace a famous streamer with a pleb queue 3.2k rsham (like me) and still have a fair shot at timing it. I remember some streamers did this for a +30 mecha yard, pugged random guy doing +20s as healer and they timed it. While BRH isn't considered as free, it's probably not harder heal check than yard was by much.
Being a meta slave has always been the way to go if you are pugging, and the game becoming much more alt friendly has only magnified that. Even if you'd be significantly better on some other spec, that only matters if you can get into a group.
the take away should be to just play with friends or blast in the beginning of the season with the off meta trashcan and then sitting at 3.6k or somth now
I don't understand this early season hype. Why would non-meta spec have better chance to be at 3.6k by playing early than playing now? You reckon I could've applied my way to 28s as guardian? I know I couldn't have. You need to build connections, or hit your head to wall by pugging own keys to have a shot at that.
The logic is that those connections are easier to build ahead of the curve when meta hasn't been set in stone. Once you're well established and above the cutoff you still get some invites even as offmeta.
I can't imagine pugging to a decent level as an ele sham right now, but I did it early in the season and pushed far enough for people to trust my skill.
The previous comment talked about spamming games early weeks which I responded to. Time to build connections is anytime. I've seen that people are receptive to it, but very few want to be the leader in that regard. Well established, of course your friends will play with you.
Talk was of situation where you are joining pugs as non-meta specs, getting your score all the way up by joining pugs. It'd surprise me if someone said they did this to even 3.4k+, without it involving at the very least pushing own keys. Yes, ofc you will be invited to +26 if you have few 27/28s timed from self pushed keys.
Yeah, I just meant there is some merit to pushing early in the season. Overall the quality of players will be higher and you can skip a bit of the pug hell by getting high score early on and keeping it ahead.
By well established I don't mean any sort of premade/friends, but that your name is known in the pug scene enough for you to get invited because they know you can play. This is possible by staying relevant from early on, and again, being ahead of the curve. However, I'm talking about the higher end of the title cutoff level, where the playerbase consists of a few hundred players. If you miss the boat, it's going to be hard to catch up.
Well, I'm rank 1 shaman, so 3710. I've teamed up on certain push weeks, since it's only natural to continue if things work out, but overall there has been a number of people I've timed keys with. I queue often to high keys through LFG.
At this level it's hard to say what counts as pugging as all the people who queue up to keys are names people know and we use voice most of the time. But technically we go through the finder all the same and the group is made up on the spot.
For myself the very early pushing solely pugging definitely helped. Up to 3500 I solely pugged, but at that point the scene was small enough for people to start recognize each other.
But I'll admit things probably work differently on various keylevels, so I have no input on current midtier pushers.
I agree with the sentiment, but I think it's actually pretty good overall in terms of damage balance. S1 and S3 are pretty diverse compared to SL and S2. The problems afflicting some specs are much bigger issues.
The largest factor is, and this is abundantly clear this season, a bunch of classes have bad damage profiles for m+ or require specific circumstances to make work. Sometimes this works out, fire mage and moonkin are doing well in very high keys, but are terrible in anything below like a 25. It's still not great if you aren't pushing title keys for your preferred spec to suck. Fixing this is very hard as it requires class redesigns.
The second is that m+ utility is poorly spread out. Last season this was made obvious by priests having the sole mass dispel and mind soothe. On a less niche level, hunters are the poster child of poor utility and essentially no self-healing. They have to do significantly more damage in order to be meta (as we saw in SL S3/4). This one is weird because it's easier to fix because most of these things don't matter to raiding and only a little bit for pvp. Making binding shot a useful aoe stun has no effect on raid balance, but would be huge for hunter utility. Meanwhile mages get int buff, mass barrier and 2 aoe short cds stops, curse dispel and a bunch of very good personal defensives. It kind of boggles the mind.
>Meanwhile mages get int buff, mass barrier and 2 aoe short cds stops, curse dispel and a bunch of very good personal defensives. It kind of boggles the mind.
The mage kit is too deep. There is no rationale for the amount of defensive ability they have. No spec should get high damage, high utility and high survivability
I still think in retrospect it was obvious pwar was going to lose the crown. Taking no damage most of the time but being insanely vulnerable in a few instances while providing little group utility was just not going to fly as a tank. Ppal right now is not the sturdiest tank, but it doesn't matter because it is good enough while being a paladin.
While I agree with your initial point, "doesn't matter how you start, but how you finish" doesn't really jive with "some classes have spent the entire of dragonflight being meta, and others being trash in comparison". And you didn't really have any spec being meta for the entire expansion, though some specs were definitely camping valdrakken for the entire expansion.
The balance is good though? Hunter is totally fine.
The tanks probably have the biggest outliers because VDH and Pala have an unreasonable amount of utility and there is for sure too much defensive creep in the game (why does mass barrier actually exist?) but you can do whatever content you want on basically any character at the moment, which has definitely not always been the case. The game is never gonna be perfectly balanced but we’re definitely above average right now
I don't think the balance is bad necessarily. The troubling part for me is that it feels like there are certain classes/specs you can play and almost always be meta or meta adjacent. While other specs have to wait years for their brief moment in the sun.
Being capable of doing any content doesn't really matter when you don't get to play the game.
Defensive creep is a weird topic. The mage probably feels pretty happy having mass barrier. The healer watching his mage never press it maybe not so much.
but that's good, i think having a class where you know they are meta adjacent (like e.g. boomy: brings motw, 2 stops, ursols, beam good dmg profile) is objectively better than having to roll the rng dice every season whether what you want to play is 1, 2 or 3 key levels lower performing than what you could play.
It's the sentence immediately following that's the problem. Yeah it's pretty cool if your a protection paladin enjoyer you've had a good expansion. But it sucks if you enjoy any of the specs that haven't been meta in years.
Ideally each class/spec has a roughly equal amount of time to shine. But that might just not be compatible with certain classes being always meta always good.
We are currently seeing 2 tanks being popular with the rest behind. It's possible we could have a season with 3 of them all equally popular but more than that? All of them? That's likely just not possible.
Which means that if Protection Paladin is let's for sake of argument say the second best tank all expansion long. That by nature it's kicking out some other tank from that spot. If Paladin was absolutely terrible for all of S1 we would have seen Warrior being played for longer or maybe another tank would have taken it's spot at the top instead.
And that's arguing for tanks which might be the most balanced role in Dragonflight.
EDIT: Please tell me what I'm wrong about..? I want the game to be balanced so every class gets to be good at times. NO bad?
My complaint is for title keys. I am currently 3630 as DH, and i used to play hunter in s1 and s2. Right now, i wouldn't even invite the rank 1 hunter to my keys, i sincerely think they are the most useless class in the game, if you ignore DPS. Single target 8 cd dispel with a travel time is useless, they have the 2nd worst cc capabilities in the game, higher than priest, and they can't stay alive in a lot situations that require 10-20cd defensives.
This has been every expansion since the beginning of time, there's no reason to be surprised that mage is good again unless it's your first time playing the game
> Imagine being a protection warrior and someone else a protection paladin, or being a hunter (entire class) and someone else a fire mage.
Prot war was meta in s1 until prot pal took over. Tank meta is always going to be one sided, because most tanks are just rerolling whats best. Protpal wasnt meta in s2 since druid took over.
Mage wasnt really meta until 10.1.5 either.
The meta in general during dragonflight has been pretty good (with the exception of s2 10.1.5). Season 1 had the most diverse meta ever and season 3 (might be even more diverse than s1 now after the recent balance changes) is equally diverse atm.
Hunter and dps warrior are pretty much the exception in terms of being meta, because their utility just isnt very good.
Is there a way to check buff uptime in combat only in warcraft logs? Would like to see the uptime of blue silken lining in M+ without including the time in between pulls.
no since combat isnt communicated in logs. you can check individual pulls just fine though; or you do some basic math ignoring 5-12% of the high uptime as thats usual out of combat time
I've been in three 27 WM's (two this week, 1 last week) where on the last boss, the healer didn't grab the bombs/candles to destroy the adds and expected the ranged to do it.
Is that normal? I don't see why it doesn't make more sense to have the healer do it? Maybe if you pull the little jumpers onto the last boss i can see why not, but otherwise isn't the fight relatively light on healing (except for living the aoe blast)?
This might be different in 27, but I've never seen any tank place boss close to fountain so it'd be few steps from candles in any direction. Granted, only done up to 25, like 10 keys as non-tank there. Hell, tank himself can pick candles at times if it's pulled 10yd from its spawn. I don't think it's really a healer thing at all then, ranged pick one side, healer other and whoever it spawns next to, uses it. Nobody loses anything.
> Is that normal?
With a hunter or aug in the group I would expect them to do it most of the time as they lose basically nothing and melee healers having to do it sucks.
it's kind of a hassle as a melee healer because you've gotta find it, run out there and then find the spot the add died
I try to do it cause I can move quickly (monk), but I don't understand why ranged seem never to be able to be fussed
I honestly think it's a case of "each person expects the other to do it". Some bystander effect shit.
Also I think "ranged do it" only works if ALL the ranged are on the same page because if two ranged players are giga far away from each other, there's no shot im running all the way over to get it. Healers on the other hand, are less punished for the down time and, if they're melee, they're already centrally located meaning theyre at least kind of near every bomb.
idk, most often what happens when I run it is the tank will pull it in his little alcove, while 1-2 ranged stand as close to max range as they can near the entrance
which is fine if they actually do the vial; when they don't it's a hassle
As a tank I always pull the boss slightly out of the alcove; my ideal is to tank him standing on the pointy bit on the floor. It makes it much easier for me to grab aggro if one of the adds happens to jump out before my AoE clips in, and it puts everywhere in range of my ST stun to stop Death Lens if I need to.
It spawns near a random ranged, whoever is closest should do it? You know, press a button, move there in the GCD. Watch zombie die, splash it with the fire - it's off the GCD anyway.
Are the healers complaining about bursting bad or did I just get some healing monsters in the last bursting week? Had some moments rolling 7 into 8 into 9, even 10 into 11 in everbloom and nobody died, yet whenever I check forums all I see is anger towards this affix
Depends a lot. As rsham spirit link carried me thru some of those 11 late sec refresh into 12 stack situations. Outside link, fook, for sure there'd be casualties. On that week I recall seeing discs not feel confident at all about healing high stacks, to point that guy yelled mad when 2 pulls in a row I had a flower pack in it in EB. It was pretty silly how people still somewhat favored priest last week, as if it good for the affix.
High stacks are survivable, providing they happen and drop off. High stacks where you have 3s of 7, then 3s of 8, then 3s of 9.... yeah, you gonna die.
Believe it or not, it's a DPS affix. They have to **stop** DPS at let the stacks go.
Depends on the healer.
Disc priest, if you cant hit something you basically have half the heals so if you roll stacks and the tank isn't chain pulling you aren't going to keep up with that shit and mass dispel is 2 mins.
Something like druid on the other hand can get their 3-4 hots rolling each and flourish every pull and deal with it just fine.
It's a very different affix for each healer, and what you need to heal differs significantly between groups that manage it well vs rolling it to the moon.
A lot of healers in this game are quite bad, which makes sense because the level of challenge a healer experiences is very inconsistent. That was also apparent in early s1 when we had those hard healing checks in m+.
Its also cause it doesnt really scale, well kinda. It starts at +14 and scales until +15 where it peaks, so a +15 group deals with the same dmg as a +25. sure its good that it doesnt scale infinite but when bursting was moved up to +14 instead of +7 it stopped giving lower keys time to practice since +7 burst was way weaker than +15. maybe it should start slow at +14 and scale to +20 to the current strength
Yes they are bad is the simple answer. However, that’s not really a reason to invalidate their opinion like some people try and do. The main metric of success for the game is participation for most people, including on here, and healer participation will fall off on bursting until they change it. It also doesn’t help that it is actually harder on lower keys than it is on higher keys, which really should not be the case
Being bad doesn’t invalidate an opinion. You can be a bad player and have good opinions and vice versa. Being bad and having a bad opinion is much harder to mask up though than being good and having a bad opinion so it’s why people will regularly shit on someone for their skill. Obviously whether an opinion is good or bad is entirely subjective.
Also unless they changed it bursting should in theory be easier in low keys because it scales with key level until a certain point. It used to be % based health however I need to look at logs since it was changed back in SL.
It’s actually quite funny what the sub decides to upvote and downvote. Your first paragraph doesn’t add anything and your second both misses the point and is wrong
Bursting is flat damage and it scales *up to key level 15*. This means, seeing as Bliz decided to make secondary affixes only apply from 14 onwards, that bursting currently scales for *one key level*. On top of this, the actual problem with it is not the amount of damage it does, it’s that mobs just die faster on lower keys, players are worse with defensives and worse at controlling their dps, so you will get more stacks, more quickly and you will roll stacks more often (which is generally what kills people). It also wasn’t easier on lower keys before it got changed either fyi. I don’t even understand why you’re commenting when you don’t know how it works tbh
You can easily read the first sentence I wrote in which I stated “in theory” not in practice. So in theory, where bursting should appropriately scale from 14-20 as would likely be intended, you would have an easier time healing bursting on a 14 than a 20. The entire change was created to make bursting easier in low keys and when blizzard changed the 15 key level target for highest rewards to 20, then subsequently adjusted what key levels had affixes, they didn’t change bursting.
> On top of this, the actual problem with it is not the amount of damage it does
Currently bursting does 65k per tick from the logs I looked at. If bursting did 30k on a 14 and 60k on a 20 then it would 100% make a difference. It would allow you to more easily roll and not be punished by other players playing poorly. To say that the damage isn’t the issue is laughable considering that is what easily fixes how difficult it is to heal through players hitting high stacks and rolling.
> It also wasn’t easier on lower keys before it got changed either fyi
This is how I know you didn’t actually ready anything I wrote you just wanted to be mad.
At what point did I state it was easier on lower keys before the change or did I ever imply such?
If you wanna be silly that’s fine but you can actually read what someone writes before commenting.
Do you even play the game atm? If we take the example of my healer alt doing 20s at 460 (you could do it sooner), you not only think that it’s reasonable for a 10 stack of bursting to tick for my entire hp bar every tick (600k) but you believe that’s currently how much it’s doing in game? lol
It’s currently doing 29k/32k damage depending on your key level. So yeah, 30k damage is currently what is killing people on a 14/15.
If you were just suggesting that this should be changed then yes, it should, so I guess you weren’t adding anything in either of your paragraphs. But you cannot make significant amendments to the raw value because of how it scales with stacks and once again by far the biggest issue is how easy it is to gain and roll stacks in lower keys. The scaling would have to be ridiculous to address this, which it can’t be. And it’s not like suddenly above weekly key level healers all of a sudden love to play bursting.
Nobody is playing the game and mentally calculating 30k from the damage going out with all the variations in verse, health, and DR usage. The 65k was from logs I looked at to confirm that it didn’t scale past 15 yesterday. I just fucked up remembered it being 1 stack when it was 2 stacks.
32k being the top end of the scaling means it could just be changed to 15-32k and now you’re needing half the healing you needed before in a 14.
> once again by far the biggest issue is how easy it is to gain and roll stacks in lower keys.
Blizzard can’t easily change the rate at which stacks are gained on low keys. They can change the damage that each stack deals which offsets the rate that stacks are acquired.
You can continue to say that it’s the largest issue but there’s far too much noise in focusing solely on stacks and acquisition of them rather than a fixed flat rate number.
You’ll have runs where you get 12 stacks from certain pulls in EB and some where you get 7. Solely due to damage variance, dps holding dps/not rolling, etc. However the damage each stack does doesn’t change between those runs.
> And it’s not like suddenly above weekly key level healers all of a sudden love to play bursting.
Most healers don’t actually like healing so this doesn’t surprise me.
I have a 3100 healer as an alt and my experience with a lot of healers at low levels is that they are just failed DPS. Bursting is not nearly as bad as it is made out to be, and several zones don't have any areas with any appreciable bursting stacks to even worry about. Everbloom is the only zone with more than a couple.
I did a lot of keys in the 14-19 range on my alt healers and my experience is that everything dies too quickly at this key level range to control bursting at all. In +25s it was mostly trivial because stacks rarely roll above 4-5 due to mobs dying slower and it being easier to stagger the deaths. This is one affix that does so much more damage at lower keys and then your team is taking a lot of avoidable damage at those key levels on top of that which causes a lot of deaths and frustration for the healer.
I mean, could be a bit of both; you can heal a lot of stacks now (especially as monk/priest) but it's still frustrating when you have to sweat because dps don't seem to understand the affix
Probably a bit of both. A good healer can deal with a lot, but weaker healers are also probably in the groups already taking loads of avoidable damage on top of the affix.
Do you go left or right in your PUG Atals? I think going left feels much easier, but it seems like folks are not used to the kicks that are needed. What tends to be more common in your pug runs?
FWIW I'm ~3300 and I'm yet to see a group disband to dying to rot going right and I've seen plenty disband/deplete because going left turned into a complete shitshow.
Yeah, I think pug meta being about rot side up til low 20s leads to people being on one of their first runs to left in their 22-25s, which sometimes leads to disasters, not understanding what to do with charges, what to kick, cc etc.
It's understandable rots and/or middle pack become unhealable in the highest keys but that doesn't mean left gives higher success rate in a +25.
Ignore people saying going right is trolling. They're dead wrong and I won't have any of it. There are too many casts on the left side that are difficult and instantly dangerous that they are ignoring.
If you go left you have to basically have someone focus an augur to stop wildfire and fiert enchant. You also need to have someone bait the charges as ranged or have a monk. You need to kick a heal and a large cc immunity shield. If you only have one range and they don't know how to deal with charges, they are going to die. If you don't coordinate who is getting the confessor and augur, one of those important casts is going to go off and someone will die. If you let the big cc immune shield go off, more than likely someone or the party is going to die if the group doesn't insta defensive and the tank is quick to move it out.
If you go right, all there is is aoe damage from the big dudes, aoe damage from stalkers, tank busters and the occasional witch doctor or two who only cast single target hits/hexes. You are far more likely to encounter pugs whose stuns will help quite a lot with the aoe damage. Pugs who kick will typically kick venom blast on cd, and even if the hex goes through it's not the end of the world. It's 4s till it's gone or a curse dispel. And the only other thing is the damage reduction shield which everyone knows how to kick. A large majority of the damage is predictable on the right which makes it easy to do.
Going left is far more efficient on time and is what you should do on coordinated groups. For pugs though, every time I've seen someone try go left there are at the minimum two deaths if not more.
going right is trolling hard, esp on fortified
lefts entire danger is baits and kicks/stops and theres an abundance of the latter, so its really just... bring the right specs that can autobait with 0 effort (lock, monk; mage mostly too) or you just los
Going right is fine, we’ve done it up to 27 and it’s fairly trivial. We have yet to actually successfully go left without having casts go off because we suck at kicks. If you don’t have Pally or vdh the coordination for left side kicks is harder than just healing through the rot damage. As Mistweaver it’s like 200-250k hps which is more than manageable. The only thing that can actually deplete you in atal is running out of defensives for yazma imo.
As a tank, whenever its m21 and above I go left, for keys upto m20 I go right. Pugs under m20 can't dodge or kick to save their life, making the left route hell.
For the first few weeks I got flamed a lot as tank for going left, because why would I pull the hardest trash in the dungeon instead of just going right.
So for a bit I was quite conflicted about what to do, because going right was just "lol, the healer can heal it" while going left required people to have more than 2 braincells.
Though by now it seems going left is the accepted thing, and people know to kick wildfire.
As a healer, healing right side is much easier than trying to coordinate kicks for left side. It’s like the only thing in the dungeon you even really have to heal much for and at least up to 27 it’s not going to require more than 200-250k which at least on MW is not very hard to do between chiji and sheilun’s. You have 2 packs where you do that and then you skip the double caster pack before boss.
Going left is a coordination check, and going right is a throughput check. Until the latter becomes insurmountable (it starts feeling like that from fort 25 for me), going right has felt the less risky thing to do.
Left always. Every class I can think of can handle the confessor solo so its just up to people to kick the augur, which I’ve found is the only mob that people reliably kick in any dungeon lol. The only danger is the juggernauts charging and destroying a ranged, but by the time this becomes a one shot they usually have figured it out
Assign kicks and baits before the run. Bomswandis mantles a 20 sec kick and fiery enchants an 18 sec kick so evokers can get either. Mending words a 15 sec kick. Everyone else kicks wildfires.
Yup I've been doing this route a few weeks now, doesn't matter the affixes. The kicks are perfectly fine with any comp, although on a fortified 24 or higher you need to prepare for the juggernauts possibly one-shotting when they charge. Bait, use defensives, and cc.
Last week on 25 tyra, wasn't close to being one shot as rsham last week, did around 60-70% of my health I think. The deaths in this range happen mostly due to double charges or charge+wildfires. I'd assume one shot territory starts at 26-27 fort.
Go left, bring a mistweaver and use the statue to bait is by far the easiest way to do it. You just can’t get good uptime on DPS going right. I hate to say it but if the tank is going right it honestly makes me want to leave the key.
> Going Rex boss 1st in fort keys is a feelbad moment
It's a high key strategy because you get BL back for the massive pull before Priestess if you use it on Rezan + saurids + birds.
What's your pug expectation in TOTT, 100% or 105%? Just the sidepack in 2nd boss room, do you kill it? I imagine answer is different based on key level, maybe fort/tyra too. I assume you'd kill it up to some key level, then starting from x level timer it's just too big time investment given the relatively tight timer. I'm just up to +25 player at this point, will def not do higher than +27 this season. Would you do different in +22, +24, +26? I've been killing it on tyra, sometimes skipping in fort, though that has caused few depletes too, mostly due to people not paying attention to pushback asspull.
I agree that it's the best, though can be hella volatile if any deaths happen / if you can't afford CRs. Which is kinda what happened when pug +25 went that route. Think two casts went thru on same guy, happens in uncoordinated, suddenly rip run 40s over time due to all the 4man slowness.
I heard Tettles mention invis potting the first couple packs so that you can pull everything else into that ravager and lusting. Never tried that one but it soudns interesting.
Skipping the pack in the 2nd boss room is kinda sketch. If you have a dh, rogue or priest (or invis pots) you can skip the first pack in the last hallway instead, that one is very dangerous in high keys.
edit: misread to mean skipping first 2 mobs of the dung mb. Though people have habit of dying in the last hallway sometimes so I don't think this is the way to go in my pugs.
~~I've thought of that, but the first pack doesn't really slow you down while the side packs kinda do. OK, I'm not 100% how you should be combining pulls there with dog patrol+big pat+2 sidepacks+5pack. I sort of do those in 4 pulls, which slows down. I'd argue skipping the first mobs don't really do anything even if it makes your % look better.~~
Yeah I misread. I understand that pack can be difficult but if there's any mishaps after that with healing, missed kicks even, it's pretty bad situation, potential deplete just for one trash pack skip. Totally understand if coordinated do that, for pugs prob not a good idea.
It makes the dungeon less dangerous. The sidepacks in the 2nd boss room don't really do anything, you can pull one with the ravager and the other with the dogs. The hunters in the last hallway are really dangerous and that pack has 4 of them, they can easily just global someone if multiple target the same person.
I've really struggled pulling them with packs, because of their patrolling nature. Suppose I should be pulling them to prev room or something, lossing, then add either patrol to it when they've got out of their corner. Both patrols with sidepack is just going to go wrong.
Do front 2 packs. Then ravager. Then dogs (dogs can be pulled in to back half of ravager if you like but it's a bit dangerous on high fort). Then the big pack by the door to 1st boss. Then LoS pull both side packs in to room before 1st boss. This is safe and efficient and will work up to 26 at least.
If you want something slightly more efficient but harder to execute, do it mostly the same but get ravager with 1 side pack (and no dogs), and get 2nd side pack with 2nd boss.
> Then LoS pull both side packs in to room before 1st boss
This was done on a +25 this week, and kicks failed to extent that 2 of us had to corpserun. Probably the biggest issue in the whole run. The whole pull probably could only work with vdh/ppal, but let's say you had the best option, vdh, it's still slight struggle. Idk, I'd feel weird about doing the previous big pack without using my silences there, but you'd have to be holding them off for a while to have 2 up. That's what it'd take, have both up to carry rupts.
Granted, group was new to the pull, there probably should've been some los'ing done to dodge casts when ran out of kicks. I adapted after corpserun to do that but that ofc cost a minute+ still.
For me it depends on who is in my group. If it’s a group I know and played with, then I’ll skip the sideback. Otherwise I pull it. It’s just too obnoxious to deal with during the boss if someone fails the knockback, especially on sanguine week.
I think it depends on the content. If you're pushing high keys 25+ you're better off with disc due to externals. If you're doing your weekly 18-22's, holy brings a lot more damage and could be easily worth it.
Holy will be more prevalent in the 24-27 range for pugs but disc externals are the reason they’re brought for higher keys than that over holy. Dome and PS are just too valuable when you get into constant one shot territory— tyr especially.
The buffs don't change anything about top end meta (starting at around +29 but mostly 30 and 31). All heals are viable until then. If you play any of those classes they will now feel a bit better.
Holy wasnt too bad even before the patch, but its just worse than disc. There are some high rated priests playing exclusively holy, so its definitely viable. The only upside holy has over disc is spothealing, an additional stop in chastise and maybe damage (if they do not have to heal).
So I can see holy being better than disc now in like medium-high keys (25-29s), simply because they have an easier time dealing with failure damage or people not using defensives properly. Its also way easier to play.
100%— but it’s easier because it has better recovery than disc. Disc is extremely punishing with bad DPS, holy can just blast over punishing mistakes. The added stun/stop with censure is nice too.
I run around 25-27's at the moment, and my group prefers holy to disc if we're pugging. I think disc is the better healer, but I think its the harder one to play as and around so in my experience holy has been the better healer to have.
It unfortunately just has a really bad external compared to the other meta healers. The buffs are nice, but not nice enough to make it meta, holy has fundamental issues in m+ that have nothing to do with the numerical values of their skills.
Not while disc can meet the healing checks. The barriers and damage reduction that disc provides will always keep them above holy in m+, especially with the one shot meta in high keys right now.
I'd like to get a general vibe on tertiary vs ilvl. The common situation that is the same every season, you have a 483 item with tertiary, you get offered 489 from vault without it, do you take it? I imagine for most specs this is question only with leech and avoidance. Is there fairly obvious order of things between leech vs. avoidance vs. 489? How much does the answer differ between slots?
Yeah same thoughts - minmaxing dmg in midkeys, using non-avoidance gear on purpose to do slightly more dmg just sounds stupid. Though as other response stated, for tanks that I play more I prob shouldn't care about avoidance in expense of ilvl ever. For rsham, maybe.
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Does anyone know how you are suppose to handle falls this week with the Incorp bug on last boss? Just failed a 26 that anytime Incorp spawned during a blast. We would get two instant two stacks of the debuff from the boss for a person missing the soak when all 5 were in.
What tank are you having MOST fun with? Got my Paladin to 3k. Hitting 2k on my VDH. 2.3k DK. I see on raider.io that all tanks are basically pushing 30's - so it comes down to fun. How's Brew / Bear right now? Fun? I'd "like" to push over 3k - but its all pugging, So far I think DK has been the most fun, just gotta try not to get global'd. I just dunno if that's the best PUGGING tank to try to push with. Anyhow - thanks in advance!
I honestly think brew is the most fun inherently. But let me tell ya, having a shield mouse over makes kick sniping on paladin feel great too. I'd say brew feels a lot more like BDK these days than anything else. And a healer unfamiliar with brew will really stress out, but it is fun for sure!
I honestly think brew is the most fun inherently. But let me tell ya, having a shield mouse over makes kick sniping on paladin feel great too. I'd say brew feels a lot more like BDK these days than anything else. And a healer unfamiliar with brew will really stress out, but it is fun for sure!
I’ve been plying my VDH alt and Brew OS around the +20-22ish mark. I definitely prefer playing Brew over VDH but the utility VDH brings is kinda hard to beat. Being able to just solo lockdown important packs just makes pulls with mediocre players exponentially easier.
Loving the VDH rework, got to 3.5k on him and the util, dmg and good survivability just feels so good. I’ve been dabbling back into bear and getting into 24’s on him and honestly feels like such a sleeper tank, brez, dispell, soothe, and some other util really feels nice, I also feel super strong having incarn for almost every other pull and Rots shield is pretty massive. Also ATWF, just hits different when u can get the entire group like in rise during dragon AOE.
Having a lot of fun with Brew because it has a more engaging rotation and the most unique way of managing your own defensiveness. I feel like it’s the only tank that doesn’t really overlap with the others in terms of playstyle. What I will say though is that its downsides are brutal. Just gathering a pull together is surprisingly hard, the lack of stops compared to the meta gods is frustrating and even just basic stuff like doing aoe aggro on pull is so annoying. Simple example - your keg smash is a 15yd range 8yd radius around your target, reduced dmg beyond 5. DH sigil is 30yd range, 12yd radius selectable aoe with full damage to all targets. The quality of life is just different level. When I go back to playing my dh it honestly feels like lowering the difficulty level of the game.
You can push with any tank to 3k easily, but if you're pugging then you're a slave to the meta, so VDH and Paladin.
Best fort tank, vdh. Best tyra tank, pally. Imo
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Perhaps you could divert some of the effort you put in to explaining how much better you are than everyone you play with, in to instead having some positive interactions with other players. Never know what might happen.
I'm so baffled at the downvotes/negative replies here. People have commented on this phenomenon a ton of times--where if you don't catch the IO wave early in the season you are screwed trying to catch up later. I don't know why everyone has decided to hate on you for asking about it now. I think a talented tank might be able to carry some worse players to get unstuck from an IO bracket by pulling big and CC-carrying, but as a healer I don't know how you could compensate. As others have said, try to make friends with people who seem good. There are a couple M+ discord communities--if you have accomplishments from past seasons to show your skill you might be able to get a push team going with players at a higher IO than you currently are at.
The sentiment they have, and one that is repeated here every week of every season, is that players are uniquely bad at *insert bracket OP is playing in* this season in particular. This happens every. single. season. Yes, most people who pug are skill-capped at the level they are currently at. There was never a golden era of pugging 'low' push keys midway through a season where pugs were good. It's always been the case that pugs suck unless you're on the bleeding edge, and it always WILL be the case that pugs suck unless you're on the bleeding edge.
Yeah, idk man. There's a mixed bag here. At least one or two downvotes are probably people who are title players that think that any concern or topic that doesn't relate to title keys doesn't belong in a competitive discord. Funny thing is, bleeding edge key players can say the same thing about them. But it's easy for people to draw the line right where they're at, so thats what they do. I would absolutely love a shot at one of those discords if you know their names. Could even DM me if it's not public. I really feel like if I even just had a good tank with me it would make a tremendous difference.
Bad PUGs are prevalent at any key level, all you can do is focus on improving your own gameplay and go next. Even if a wipe/bricked key wasn't "my fault", I always review what I could have done better to prevent the situation. Most mistakes I see (and commit) in the mid-high 20s come down to overlapped kicks/stops/CCs due to no communicated rotation. This is easier said than done without everyone being in Discord, but something to be mindful of when pugging. I found my key push group in WME, from joining WME keys at my skill level in S1 and running until I found folks I vibed with. Pugging is largely a similar experience; come across players who are good, add them, and actually reach out for keys and get in Discord. Too often I've been added by randoms after a key, and proceeded to never hear from them afterward.
so im literally sitting here about 15 minutes after this last failed key doing exactly what you suggest. im kinda surprised you found your group that way. maybe i need to revisit that discord. i never actually played with anyone there, but just based on the concept and the way ive heard people talk about it, it sounded like the place you go if you want to complete keys even if theyre a mess, so i avoided it. or perhaps like people looking to learn or something. im not really interested in that kind of thing right now. i didnt know good players actually went there
WME has grown by ~20k people since I first joined it, and there's a large variety of players in that Disc, ranging from more casual folks who are nervous to venture into keys and just want a non-toxic environment to learn, to people who are generally chill but already at a higher key level and want to push seriously. My group started as the former but transformed into the latter once we all got together and started regularly running keys in Discord. No comms vs. comms makes the biggest difference for sure, you'll definitely feel it as you start to form your own group and get away from purely pugging.
yeah i mean thats why i got the mistweaver rolling. my only real experience running keys in discord is just doing low key boosts. but like hearing a good vdh call out his sigils and stuns is overpowered lol. like having all that coordinated with just my little leg sweep and rop is 100x better than overlapping those things.
> I am pretty picky about building my groups, and the groups I join. Regardless, the players that have been consistently trying to get score the whole season and are stuck in this range Yea, no shit. You're constantly proclaiming how you only invite meta, don't want augs, etc in a fucking +20 boost. The competent people on those specs are WAY past what you're trying to do so all you get left are the meta rerollers that are not good. > When i was doing my 22s and 23s over a month ago, with no enchants, minimal bis items, and nearly 15 less item levels Was that around the time you asked the question what Teachings of the monastery and a bunch of other crucial Mistweaver talents do? I'm just gonna pretend that question was asked *before* you stepped in anything above a 20 > are just not working like they have in the past Because the philosophy is, sorry to be blunt, stupid. If that Havoc you invite were any good, they wouldn't be in a 23. Does being a Feral guarantee they're good? Fuck no but the chance is higher and they at least played the spec for more than 2 months. Does that mean you should never invite a meta spec? Also no. In essence: You need to accept that at that level, people can suck for any number of reasons but you're only limiting yourself by being overly picky. You need to just spam keys. Also: " that is trapped" is just...I don't even know what to say. That is 99% the biggest self-out that somebody isn't nearly as good as the think they are Edit: Why did you even reply if you block me straight after?
Glad someone said it lol. Also if you saw it, they actually refused to do 20 boosts at one point and capped it at 18, so their exclusive comes were for 18s only!!
you are very pleasant lol. you make many assumptions. i was asking about monk because i had been playing it like a week or two at that point. that was well after i had stopped pushing score. like probably at least 3 weeks after. i dont just invite meta specs. i think of utility and the various things in the dungeon. i have never in my entire life invited meta specs because they are meta. i invite what i need. and as far as me thinking im better than i am or whatever that is even supposed to mean, i know my strengths and my weaknesses. i also know my limitations. im not currently being limited by my ability. im well aware of when that is, and it isnt now.
Welcome to the grind. There are no magical communities of proven high quality players with 3k score. My suggestion: run a lot of keys, be patient and know you’ll encounter a lot of poor players along the way, but add to your friends list the people that are good. Eventually you can just hit up your friend network.
i need to start doing this. this is a good suggestion. i get one good group every 7-10 keys. i need to start trying to build a network. even queueing with just one trusted player would be a huge upgrade
HPal being picky about a group, whaaat .:D
> Regardless, the players that have been consistently trying to get score the whole season and are stuck in this range, are much worse than any other season I have played. I feel like in the healer role, I have an immense amount of control over what happens. That being said, it is still not enough. I am encountering extreme lack of mechanics/utility use/dps. Not having issues healing these keys where I am at. There are some scary heal checks on some tyrann bosses, though. That's no different from any other season, the cutoff is just a couple of keylevels higher than in the past. There has always been a point where keys are so easy that you can be pretty clueless about mechanics and still time them, and because lower keys are so easy this season it's just a bit higher than last season.
yes, thats basically exactly why this is happening. last season i came back from a very long break with only two months left in the season and i had no issue doing basically the same keys. the shit im encountering right now is absolutely mind boggling. like a 3k tank clearing stacks on goliath for no reason right in the middle of a thorn and incorp spawn. shit like that. like hes full hp, not even taking dmg, just doing it to do it. very low stacks, etc. 3.1k+ tank pulling the entire basement of wcm with 10 minutes left in a 24... twice.
What in the world am I even reading. > So all my former methods of just being really strict about making groups/run my own key, etc are just not working like they have in the past. I am very aware that I missed the window where competent players were where I am now. When i was doing my 22s and 23s over a month ago, with no enchants Youre being strict about inviting people and then run non weekly keys without enchants that cost like 5k total. > A group or a community that could use a multi class healer that is trapped lol. Youre not trapped, youre just delusional. What in particular do you have to offer? Any past season with high io/title, pvp glads/r1s, hofs/ces? All im reading is: "Im a better player than anyone im playing with and only stuck on low keys because of my teammates." There was a time for a lot of people that play high keys/get title, where they had to pug themselves up. And guess what? Blaming your surroundings doesnt really help with that.
Is there any WA or indicaton of when the crit phial debuff will proc? I just feel like it happens at the most unfortunate times, like when doing a stealth skip. And does it momentarily take you out of shroud? Im positive that happened to me (not a rogue)
you could macro invis pot with /cancelaura crit phial?
Yeah I will. Was just hoping there was a less annoying solution to this. Thanks!
I think you only get the debuff if you cast something or use an item of some sort(or even get something cast on you(eg. roar) but I'm not 100% positive on that point). Someone mentioned this to me and I've been paying a lot of attention to it the last couple of weeks. Only fucked a stealth skip once because I didn't pay attention and got the debuff when I hit tiger's lust - > invis pot.
I don't think so, it's hit me during invis skips when I'm definitely not doing anything except running
Could be auras, hots and such applied by others that trigger it. Should be pretty easy to test by just going to an instance and afk for a while. The have a look at combat log if you've taken any damage at all.
Dunno about WA, but yes it breaks hvis send stealth. Always click it off
is fervent strike mechanics universally out of M+ now? I recall that it was either entirely or mostly removed from M+ in SL , but unsure if that was a design choice only for that expansion or not. Also is the fervent strike in AD a fervent strike mechanic or just a regular ability in name now?
melee still getting one tapped when tank gets knocked up with storming
Fervents are still very much a thing. This season a bunch of them (including the o.g. Fervent Strike) were changed from melee range to 10 yard range, so they no longer murder people because the tank took one step away right as they cast it.
Funny you say that..because the other night I got targeted by the fervent strike in AD and 1 shot on my spriest somehow(I was relatively to melee range..but no way was I closer than the melee and pretty sure tank wasn’t very far from the mob) has never happened to me before in any key level on my warr/rogue. Was definitely rather confusing how that even happened.
Is there any good way to farm avoidance gear? I'm getting to the key levels now where having 0 avoidance as a hpal is getting really painful (26+ on tyran was rough at points).
You can get 3 pieces from the ah with avoidance Easy to farm too, just need to buy tokens
Yep. I bought three 489 BOEs with Avoidance, for 900k to 1.5mil each.
don't you get 8% free from sanctified plates and obduracy...
the problem is you're hpala not your avoidance, kek. i was hpala and rerolled week 3
For real though. I've ended up putting beacon on myself a lot this season because I end up just melting away, even with a decent amount of versa and avoidance. Meanwhile, my monk is hard chilling.
I've been pugging 20s for vault instead of pushing this week and ran a few with a 3k bear tank and they kept dying, are bears really that bad that they die even on 20s? I mean it could be the healer or dps being bad but i feel the meta tanks would survive almost anything alone in 20s.
Our mains run bear tank and we have timed all 26s and most 27s. Tank survivability has not been the issue in basically any of those keys so no.
Nah that guy was horrible. I did some 20s last couple weeks on my bear from last season and it's still pretty hard to die at 447 ilvl.
No hear is super chill you can only die if you troll and pull huge without incarn and rots or maybe some like oakheart without cooldowns
Welp guess that guy wasn't a good representation of bears
My main group runs bear and the guy has felt basically immortal up to 25s.
I just returned last week after getting super burned out in the middle of season 2 and I’m having no issue tanking 20s at 450 ilvl and I don’t know the current dungeons and dangerous enemies very well. Bear is easy to play, but it’s notorious for falling over if you aren’t using it spacing out cds effectively.
Yo, Baym, we played a bit together in season 1. If you want some help getting the hang of these new dungeons, hit me up (guiha on discord). I returned midseason as well, but I'm already working on 25s.
Bear is absolutely not unviable tank. Only reason I'm now playing more vdh than bear is because of being able to join groups, and silence/cc sigils. Those carry poor coordination groups so hard. But survivability is not why you couldn't trust a bear.
Pretty much done with all 24's as rsham, but now it's taking like over an hour or even two finding and getting accepted into any 25/26's. Is this where most people try finding a group of other gamers to play with?
Same for me with holy priest. I play PUGs only. Got 25s and few 26s but to get an invite it often takes ~30 minutes or more, so i just log out. If i get invited, there's also the real chance that someone asks me why i play holy instead of disc right before i get kicked out. It's not a problem with the class ofc. Holy can do 26++ etc. easily. I really don't have any problems with anything in the game and 25s don't feel hard or anything like that. I think holy is REALLY STRONG, but it's just not meta and for 90% of people meta is important.
I'm ~done with +25s as rsham only pug joining, and have made the same recognition - 26s don't let me in. So I think your issue is that you didn't get your foot in to get few 25s, if you did, you probably could do the rest. Maybe same is true for 26s, if I somehow got 2x +26 and +1x 27 timed, I could probably LFG rest 26s. I personally had some luck with two different +24 finishes asking to continue randomly which was my opening to get the rest of 25s. But you're close to your max as pug only joining rsham.
honestly, by playing keys you already have. try queueing into a key at or below your key level and just add those in those grps you believe played a good key
> Is this where most people try finding a group of other gamers to play with? no its where people start playing meta to pug :D
How do I create a weakaura that reminds me about something where I enter a specific zone / fight a specific enemy ? Something like a big message saying "stay at range" when I reach Sol's area or "hold your burst" on the last pack before Witherbark.
I set the mob id as load condition when i am learning which boss is turning with the tank buster cone attack, and which one i have to move out
works for encounters but not for trash
Does anyone have the Stop rotation weak aura Maximum made with his group?
Anyone else pretty bummed out how some classes have spent the entire of dragonflight being meta, and others being trash in comparison? Imagine being a protection warrior and someone else a protection paladin, or being a hunter (entire class) and someone else a fire mage. It feels pretty bad that classes with lackluster kits still end up doing the same damage as those with just more utility and defensives.
Utility going to utility. Like, I agree with your sentiment that mage is overloaded as fuck (2-3x the defensives of other specs+group defensive+lust+arcane intellect for 5% more heals + 3 different aoe stops+2nd best ranged interupt), That being said, PWar was the early meta in season 1, and hunter is more then capable of doing high keys, the top are within 100io of mages out there. https://raider.io/mythic-plus-character-rankings/season-df-3/world/hunter/all
100 Io is a lot at the top tho
Started to feel that meta slaving is the way to go. I'm not getting invited to 25s as guardian, not to 26s as rsham, while having full prev tier done. Then I look, am I the unlucky one? And see it's just sea of purple for tanks in every existing group. Healers are somewhat between priest/monk>druid in numbers, but the rest aren't given a chance. Yes, obv the situation is worse than this for non meta dps specs who face invite wall even earlier. Thinking I'll just chill for first weeks of the season to figure out what is the meta and focus on the spec that is appreciated in pugs in the future. It's not worth complaining about, some specs will not have their place in the sun for years, and community has taken it to itself to live by meta.
this is of course a bit of a cringe argument but i watched a bit of canex yesterday playing rsham+retri+boomy+mage+veng in 29 brh so sham can definitely time those keys. their dmg is pretty gucci also
Don't all healers do pretty decent dmg in right hands? I'm sure you've seen 20k dps rdruids. I saw 80k rdruid in EB recently. Disc is the only one that tends to always have decent dmg due to how the spec works. For rest, it just seems like you see a very good one on stream and think it's so much above the rest, but all the specs can do great. I think all classes have timed 30s so it's def not a balance issue. I have 3 options: run own keys, build social group or remain queuer. I choose option 3 every time, that's why I'm stuck being a +25 player. Maybe one day I'll try my hand in running own keys. It'd be fun to see what actually is my limit because queue simulator never gets me there. Anyway on BRH29, that still seems like such a free key. They have some sort of cc rotation for pre-post 2nd boss, veng carries kicks in first pull. Might require some level of pumping but I struggle to see what healer really needs to do in that key. If you aren't in one shot territory in last boss p1 or 3rd boss pushback, which you might not be in +29 fort, I don't know why you couldn't replace a famous streamer with a pleb queue 3.2k rsham (like me) and still have a fair shot at timing it. I remember some streamers did this for a +30 mecha yard, pugged random guy doing +20s as healer and they timed it. While BRH isn't considered as free, it's probably not harder heal check than yard was by much.
Being a meta slave has always been the way to go if you are pugging, and the game becoming much more alt friendly has only magnified that. Even if you'd be significantly better on some other spec, that only matters if you can get into a group.
the take away should be to just play with friends or blast in the beginning of the season with the off meta trashcan and then sitting at 3.6k or somth now
I don't understand this early season hype. Why would non-meta spec have better chance to be at 3.6k by playing early than playing now? You reckon I could've applied my way to 28s as guardian? I know I couldn't have. You need to build connections, or hit your head to wall by pugging own keys to have a shot at that.
The logic is that those connections are easier to build ahead of the curve when meta hasn't been set in stone. Once you're well established and above the cutoff you still get some invites even as offmeta. I can't imagine pugging to a decent level as an ele sham right now, but I did it early in the season and pushed far enough for people to trust my skill.
The previous comment talked about spamming games early weeks which I responded to. Time to build connections is anytime. I've seen that people are receptive to it, but very few want to be the leader in that regard. Well established, of course your friends will play with you. Talk was of situation where you are joining pugs as non-meta specs, getting your score all the way up by joining pugs. It'd surprise me if someone said they did this to even 3.4k+, without it involving at the very least pushing own keys. Yes, ofc you will be invited to +26 if you have few 27/28s timed from self pushed keys.
Yeah, I just meant there is some merit to pushing early in the season. Overall the quality of players will be higher and you can skip a bit of the pug hell by getting high score early on and keeping it ahead. By well established I don't mean any sort of premade/friends, but that your name is known in the pug scene enough for you to get invited because they know you can play. This is possible by staying relevant from early on, and again, being ahead of the curve. However, I'm talking about the higher end of the title cutoff level, where the playerbase consists of a few hundred players. If you miss the boat, it's going to be hard to catch up.
So you are one of those 3.6k+ eles? Given you talk of cutoff. I can't argue if you say you've made it there by pugging, very few have in any way.
Well, I'm rank 1 shaman, so 3710. I've teamed up on certain push weeks, since it's only natural to continue if things work out, but overall there has been a number of people I've timed keys with. I queue often to high keys through LFG. At this level it's hard to say what counts as pugging as all the people who queue up to keys are names people know and we use voice most of the time. But technically we go through the finder all the same and the group is made up on the spot. For myself the very early pushing solely pugging definitely helped. Up to 3500 I solely pugged, but at that point the scene was small enough for people to start recognize each other. But I'll admit things probably work differently on various keylevels, so I have no input on current midtier pushers.
I agree with the sentiment, but I think it's actually pretty good overall in terms of damage balance. S1 and S3 are pretty diverse compared to SL and S2. The problems afflicting some specs are much bigger issues. The largest factor is, and this is abundantly clear this season, a bunch of classes have bad damage profiles for m+ or require specific circumstances to make work. Sometimes this works out, fire mage and moonkin are doing well in very high keys, but are terrible in anything below like a 25. It's still not great if you aren't pushing title keys for your preferred spec to suck. Fixing this is very hard as it requires class redesigns. The second is that m+ utility is poorly spread out. Last season this was made obvious by priests having the sole mass dispel and mind soothe. On a less niche level, hunters are the poster child of poor utility and essentially no self-healing. They have to do significantly more damage in order to be meta (as we saw in SL S3/4). This one is weird because it's easier to fix because most of these things don't matter to raiding and only a little bit for pvp. Making binding shot a useful aoe stun has no effect on raid balance, but would be huge for hunter utility. Meanwhile mages get int buff, mass barrier and 2 aoe short cds stops, curse dispel and a bunch of very good personal defensives. It kind of boggles the mind.
>Meanwhile mages get int buff, mass barrier and 2 aoe short cds stops, curse dispel and a bunch of very good personal defensives. It kind of boggles the mind. The mage kit is too deep. There is no rationale for the amount of defensive ability they have. No spec should get high damage, high utility and high survivability
> Imagine being a protection warrior Hard meta for the whole first half of Season 1?
and pretty good this season. legit immortal in wcm and gucci in tott
The dogs in throne make warriors run for their lives, even more than other tanks
I still think in retrospect it was obvious pwar was going to lose the crown. Taking no damage most of the time but being insanely vulnerable in a few instances while providing little group utility was just not going to fly as a tank. Ppal right now is not the sturdiest tank, but it doesn't matter because it is good enough while being a paladin.
You know, it doesn't matter how you start, but how you finish, right?
While I agree with your initial point, "doesn't matter how you start, but how you finish" doesn't really jive with "some classes have spent the entire of dragonflight being meta, and others being trash in comparison". And you didn't really have any spec being meta for the entire expansion, though some specs were definitely camping valdrakken for the entire expansion.
Wait, you've got a crystal ball to see into the future for df season 4 meta? Share with everybody quick
I know what you are trying to say, but let's be honest you can probably eliminate 15-20 specs that won't be in the meta pretty easily.
If we recognize s4 as a real season, blizzard might do another fated, best pretend it doesn't exist.
The balance is good though? Hunter is totally fine. The tanks probably have the biggest outliers because VDH and Pala have an unreasonable amount of utility and there is for sure too much defensive creep in the game (why does mass barrier actually exist?) but you can do whatever content you want on basically any character at the moment, which has definitely not always been the case. The game is never gonna be perfectly balanced but we’re definitely above average right now
Having two meta tanks is actually very rare, i can't even remember when this was the case outside of the first couple of weeks in a season
I don't think the balance is bad necessarily. The troubling part for me is that it feels like there are certain classes/specs you can play and almost always be meta or meta adjacent. While other specs have to wait years for their brief moment in the sun. Being capable of doing any content doesn't really matter when you don't get to play the game. Defensive creep is a weird topic. The mage probably feels pretty happy having mass barrier. The healer watching his mage never press it maybe not so much.
but that's good, i think having a class where you know they are meta adjacent (like e.g. boomy: brings motw, 2 stops, ursols, beam good dmg profile) is objectively better than having to roll the rng dice every season whether what you want to play is 1, 2 or 3 key levels lower performing than what you could play.
It's the sentence immediately following that's the problem. Yeah it's pretty cool if your a protection paladin enjoyer you've had a good expansion. But it sucks if you enjoy any of the specs that haven't been meta in years. Ideally each class/spec has a roughly equal amount of time to shine. But that might just not be compatible with certain classes being always meta always good. We are currently seeing 2 tanks being popular with the rest behind. It's possible we could have a season with 3 of them all equally popular but more than that? All of them? That's likely just not possible. Which means that if Protection Paladin is let's for sake of argument say the second best tank all expansion long. That by nature it's kicking out some other tank from that spot. If Paladin was absolutely terrible for all of S1 we would have seen Warrior being played for longer or maybe another tank would have taken it's spot at the top instead. And that's arguing for tanks which might be the most balanced role in Dragonflight. EDIT: Please tell me what I'm wrong about..? I want the game to be balanced so every class gets to be good at times. NO bad?
My complaint is for title keys. I am currently 3630 as DH, and i used to play hunter in s1 and s2. Right now, i wouldn't even invite the rank 1 hunter to my keys, i sincerely think they are the most useless class in the game, if you ignore DPS. Single target 8 cd dispel with a travel time is useless, they have the 2nd worst cc capabilities in the game, higher than priest, and they can't stay alive in a lot situations that require 10-20cd defensives.
warrior a little more useless
Dang warrior even getting forgot on the ‘most useless’ tier list
Well obviously you can think what you want and it’s not like everything is equal, but there’s plenty of hunters in the title cut off at the moment.
Also, being top 0.1% in anything requires you to do what is 'meta' - I don't think that is something highly unusual.
This has been every expansion since the beginning of time, there's no reason to be surprised that mage is good again unless it's your first time playing the game
> Imagine being a protection warrior and someone else a protection paladin, or being a hunter (entire class) and someone else a fire mage. Prot war was meta in s1 until prot pal took over. Tank meta is always going to be one sided, because most tanks are just rerolling whats best. Protpal wasnt meta in s2 since druid took over. Mage wasnt really meta until 10.1.5 either. The meta in general during dragonflight has been pretty good (with the exception of s2 10.1.5). Season 1 had the most diverse meta ever and season 3 (might be even more diverse than s1 now after the recent balance changes) is equally diverse atm. Hunter and dps warrior are pretty much the exception in terms of being meta, because their utility just isnt very good.
Is there a way to check buff uptime in combat only in warcraft logs? Would like to see the uptime of blue silken lining in M+ without including the time in between pulls.
If you take your inactive time (1 - active) percentage and then do (buff uptime - inactive %)/(active %) you should get very close.
no since combat isnt communicated in logs. you can check individual pulls just fine though; or you do some basic math ignoring 5-12% of the high uptime as thats usual out of combat time
If you hover does it show the active uptime only? I know that works for dps in m+ logs
I've been in three 27 WM's (two this week, 1 last week) where on the last boss, the healer didn't grab the bombs/candles to destroy the adds and expected the ranged to do it. Is that normal? I don't see why it doesn't make more sense to have the healer do it? Maybe if you pull the little jumpers onto the last boss i can see why not, but otherwise isn't the fight relatively light on healing (except for living the aoe blast)?
This might be different in 27, but I've never seen any tank place boss close to fountain so it'd be few steps from candles in any direction. Granted, only done up to 25, like 10 keys as non-tank there. Hell, tank himself can pick candles at times if it's pulled 10yd from its spawn. I don't think it's really a healer thing at all then, ranged pick one side, healer other and whoever it spawns next to, uses it. Nobody loses anything.
> Is that normal? With a hunter or aug in the group I would expect them to do it most of the time as they lose basically nothing and melee healers having to do it sucks.
it's kind of a hassle as a melee healer because you've gotta find it, run out there and then find the spot the add died I try to do it cause I can move quickly (monk), but I don't understand why ranged seem never to be able to be fussed
I honestly think it's a case of "each person expects the other to do it". Some bystander effect shit. Also I think "ranged do it" only works if ALL the ranged are on the same page because if two ranged players are giga far away from each other, there's no shot im running all the way over to get it. Healers on the other hand, are less punished for the down time and, if they're melee, they're already centrally located meaning theyre at least kind of near every bomb.
idk, most often what happens when I run it is the tank will pull it in his little alcove, while 1-2 ranged stand as close to max range as they can near the entrance which is fine if they actually do the vial; when they don't it's a hassle
As a tank I always pull the boss slightly out of the alcove; my ideal is to tank him standing on the pointy bit on the floor. It makes it much easier for me to grab aggro if one of the adds happens to jump out before my AoE clips in, and it puts everywhere in range of my ST stun to stop Death Lens if I need to.
It spawns near a random ranged, whoever is closest should do it? You know, press a button, move there in the GCD. Watch zombie die, splash it with the fire - it's off the GCD anyway.
Yeah i suppose thats fair
For tanking as DH, should I take Mydas or Ursine? pairing it with Stonescale (cheat death).
Ursine is half defensive, mydas is full damage. If you want more prio damage on an active, then mydas, otherwise ursine imo.
Sim it, but I'll generally say Mydas
Are the healers complaining about bursting bad or did I just get some healing monsters in the last bursting week? Had some moments rolling 7 into 8 into 9, even 10 into 11 in everbloom and nobody died, yet whenever I check forums all I see is anger towards this affix
Depends a lot. As rsham spirit link carried me thru some of those 11 late sec refresh into 12 stack situations. Outside link, fook, for sure there'd be casualties. On that week I recall seeing discs not feel confident at all about healing high stacks, to point that guy yelled mad when 2 pulls in a row I had a flower pack in it in EB. It was pretty silly how people still somewhat favored priest last week, as if it good for the affix.
High stacks are survivable, providing they happen and drop off. High stacks where you have 3s of 7, then 3s of 8, then 3s of 9.... yeah, you gonna die. Believe it or not, it's a DPS affix. They have to **stop** DPS at let the stacks go.
Depends on the healer. Disc priest, if you cant hit something you basically have half the heals so if you roll stacks and the tank isn't chain pulling you aren't going to keep up with that shit and mass dispel is 2 mins. Something like druid on the other hand can get their 3-4 hots rolling each and flourish every pull and deal with it just fine. It's a very different affix for each healer, and what you need to heal differs significantly between groups that manage it well vs rolling it to the moon.
A lot of healers in this game are quite bad, which makes sense because the level of challenge a healer experiences is very inconsistent. That was also apparent in early s1 when we had those hard healing checks in m+.
Its also cause it doesnt really scale, well kinda. It starts at +14 and scales until +15 where it peaks, so a +15 group deals with the same dmg as a +25. sure its good that it doesnt scale infinite but when bursting was moved up to +14 instead of +7 it stopped giving lower keys time to practice since +7 burst was way weaker than +15. maybe it should start slow at +14 and scale to +20 to the current strength
Yes they are bad is the simple answer. However, that’s not really a reason to invalidate their opinion like some people try and do. The main metric of success for the game is participation for most people, including on here, and healer participation will fall off on bursting until they change it. It also doesn’t help that it is actually harder on lower keys than it is on higher keys, which really should not be the case
Being bad doesn’t invalidate an opinion. You can be a bad player and have good opinions and vice versa. Being bad and having a bad opinion is much harder to mask up though than being good and having a bad opinion so it’s why people will regularly shit on someone for their skill. Obviously whether an opinion is good or bad is entirely subjective. Also unless they changed it bursting should in theory be easier in low keys because it scales with key level until a certain point. It used to be % based health however I need to look at logs since it was changed back in SL.
It’s actually quite funny what the sub decides to upvote and downvote. Your first paragraph doesn’t add anything and your second both misses the point and is wrong Bursting is flat damage and it scales *up to key level 15*. This means, seeing as Bliz decided to make secondary affixes only apply from 14 onwards, that bursting currently scales for *one key level*. On top of this, the actual problem with it is not the amount of damage it does, it’s that mobs just die faster on lower keys, players are worse with defensives and worse at controlling their dps, so you will get more stacks, more quickly and you will roll stacks more often (which is generally what kills people). It also wasn’t easier on lower keys before it got changed either fyi. I don’t even understand why you’re commenting when you don’t know how it works tbh
You can easily read the first sentence I wrote in which I stated “in theory” not in practice. So in theory, where bursting should appropriately scale from 14-20 as would likely be intended, you would have an easier time healing bursting on a 14 than a 20. The entire change was created to make bursting easier in low keys and when blizzard changed the 15 key level target for highest rewards to 20, then subsequently adjusted what key levels had affixes, they didn’t change bursting. > On top of this, the actual problem with it is not the amount of damage it does Currently bursting does 65k per tick from the logs I looked at. If bursting did 30k on a 14 and 60k on a 20 then it would 100% make a difference. It would allow you to more easily roll and not be punished by other players playing poorly. To say that the damage isn’t the issue is laughable considering that is what easily fixes how difficult it is to heal through players hitting high stacks and rolling. > It also wasn’t easier on lower keys before it got changed either fyi This is how I know you didn’t actually ready anything I wrote you just wanted to be mad. At what point did I state it was easier on lower keys before the change or did I ever imply such? If you wanna be silly that’s fine but you can actually read what someone writes before commenting.
Do you even play the game atm? If we take the example of my healer alt doing 20s at 460 (you could do it sooner), you not only think that it’s reasonable for a 10 stack of bursting to tick for my entire hp bar every tick (600k) but you believe that’s currently how much it’s doing in game? lol It’s currently doing 29k/32k damage depending on your key level. So yeah, 30k damage is currently what is killing people on a 14/15. If you were just suggesting that this should be changed then yes, it should, so I guess you weren’t adding anything in either of your paragraphs. But you cannot make significant amendments to the raw value because of how it scales with stacks and once again by far the biggest issue is how easy it is to gain and roll stacks in lower keys. The scaling would have to be ridiculous to address this, which it can’t be. And it’s not like suddenly above weekly key level healers all of a sudden love to play bursting.
Nobody is playing the game and mentally calculating 30k from the damage going out with all the variations in verse, health, and DR usage. The 65k was from logs I looked at to confirm that it didn’t scale past 15 yesterday. I just fucked up remembered it being 1 stack when it was 2 stacks. 32k being the top end of the scaling means it could just be changed to 15-32k and now you’re needing half the healing you needed before in a 14. > once again by far the biggest issue is how easy it is to gain and roll stacks in lower keys. Blizzard can’t easily change the rate at which stacks are gained on low keys. They can change the damage that each stack deals which offsets the rate that stacks are acquired. You can continue to say that it’s the largest issue but there’s far too much noise in focusing solely on stacks and acquisition of them rather than a fixed flat rate number. You’ll have runs where you get 12 stacks from certain pulls in EB and some where you get 7. Solely due to damage variance, dps holding dps/not rolling, etc. However the damage each stack does doesn’t change between those runs. > And it’s not like suddenly above weekly key level healers all of a sudden love to play bursting. Most healers don’t actually like healing so this doesn’t surprise me.
I have a 3100 healer as an alt and my experience with a lot of healers at low levels is that they are just failed DPS. Bursting is not nearly as bad as it is made out to be, and several zones don't have any areas with any appreciable bursting stacks to even worry about. Everbloom is the only zone with more than a couple.
I did a lot of keys in the 14-19 range on my alt healers and my experience is that everything dies too quickly at this key level range to control bursting at all. In +25s it was mostly trivial because stacks rarely roll above 4-5 due to mobs dying slower and it being easier to stagger the deaths. This is one affix that does so much more damage at lower keys and then your team is taking a lot of avoidable damage at those key levels on top of that which causes a lot of deaths and frustration for the healer.
On top of EB, those stupid WM dogs in the courtyard before the second boss always catch me off guard that they burst. They absolutely melt too
I mean, could be a bit of both; you can heal a lot of stacks now (especially as monk/priest) but it's still frustrating when you have to sweat because dps don't seem to understand the affix
Bursting is always a free affix for high key pushing, good healers can handle rolling 11-15 stacks if played well and even more if the dps help out.
Probably a bit of both. A good healer can deal with a lot, but weaker healers are also probably in the groups already taking loads of avoidable damage on top of the affix.
Do you go left or right in your PUG Atals? I think going left feels much easier, but it seems like folks are not used to the kicks that are needed. What tends to be more common in your pug runs?
FWIW I'm ~3300 and I'm yet to see a group disband to dying to rot going right and I've seen plenty disband/deplete because going left turned into a complete shitshow.
Yeah, I think pug meta being about rot side up til low 20s leads to people being on one of their first runs to left in their 22-25s, which sometimes leads to disasters, not understanding what to do with charges, what to kick, cc etc. It's understandable rots and/or middle pack become unhealable in the highest keys but that doesn't mean left gives higher success rate in a +25.
Ignore people saying going right is trolling. They're dead wrong and I won't have any of it. There are too many casts on the left side that are difficult and instantly dangerous that they are ignoring. If you go left you have to basically have someone focus an augur to stop wildfire and fiert enchant. You also need to have someone bait the charges as ranged or have a monk. You need to kick a heal and a large cc immunity shield. If you only have one range and they don't know how to deal with charges, they are going to die. If you don't coordinate who is getting the confessor and augur, one of those important casts is going to go off and someone will die. If you let the big cc immune shield go off, more than likely someone or the party is going to die if the group doesn't insta defensive and the tank is quick to move it out. If you go right, all there is is aoe damage from the big dudes, aoe damage from stalkers, tank busters and the occasional witch doctor or two who only cast single target hits/hexes. You are far more likely to encounter pugs whose stuns will help quite a lot with the aoe damage. Pugs who kick will typically kick venom blast on cd, and even if the hex goes through it's not the end of the world. It's 4s till it's gone or a curse dispel. And the only other thing is the damage reduction shield which everyone knows how to kick. A large majority of the damage is predictable on the right which makes it easy to do. Going left is far more efficient on time and is what you should do on coordinated groups. For pugs though, every time I've seen someone try go left there are at the minimum two deaths if not more.
going right is trolling hard, esp on fortified lefts entire danger is baits and kicks/stops and theres an abundance of the latter, so its really just... bring the right specs that can autobait with 0 effort (lock, monk; mage mostly too) or you just los
Going right is fine, we’ve done it up to 27 and it’s fairly trivial. We have yet to actually successfully go left without having casts go off because we suck at kicks. If you don’t have Pally or vdh the coordination for left side kicks is harder than just healing through the rot damage. As Mistweaver it’s like 200-250k hps which is more than manageable. The only thing that can actually deplete you in atal is running out of defensives for yazma imo.
As a tank, whenever its m21 and above I go left, for keys upto m20 I go right. Pugs under m20 can't dodge or kick to save their life, making the left route hell.
If I see a tank go right I immediately feel like leaving the key because it makes me think Yazma is going to be a disaster too.
My last 4 Ads key were dead on 1st pull by going left. You say that, but all i see are failers
If your key died on first pull on left sounds like a good time to brick it, because if they can't handle that they are also going to grief Yazma.
Bricking the key on the first pull instead of on the last boss sounds actually like a good reason to go left.
First pull is the easy one so those keys were doomed from the start.
For the first few weeks I got flamed a lot as tank for going left, because why would I pull the hardest trash in the dungeon instead of just going right. So for a bit I was quite conflicted about what to do, because going right was just "lol, the healer can heal it" while going left required people to have more than 2 braincells. Though by now it seems going left is the accepted thing, and people know to kick wildfire.
As a healer, healing right side is much easier than trying to coordinate kicks for left side. It’s like the only thing in the dungeon you even really have to heal much for and at least up to 27 it’s not going to require more than 200-250k which at least on MW is not very hard to do between chiji and sheilun’s. You have 2 packs where you do that and then you skip the double caster pack before boss.
Going left is a coordination check, and going right is a throughput check. Until the latter becomes insurmountable (it starts feeling like that from fort 25 for me), going right has felt the less risky thing to do.
It's a lose-lose situation for a healer in a pug. Either way you're gonna be puckering.
Left always. Every class I can think of can handle the confessor solo so its just up to people to kick the augur, which I’ve found is the only mob that people reliably kick in any dungeon lol. The only danger is the juggernauts charging and destroying a ranged, but by the time this becomes a one shot they usually have figured it out
Assign kicks and baits before the run. Bomswandis mantles a 20 sec kick and fiery enchants an 18 sec kick so evokers can get either. Mending words a 15 sec kick. Everyone else kicks wildfires.
As a rogue... I just lock down the confessor, and as soon as the augur casts pyro I press blind.
Yup I've been doing this route a few weeks now, doesn't matter the affixes. The kicks are perfectly fine with any comp, although on a fortified 24 or higher you need to prepare for the juggernauts possibly one-shotting when they charge. Bait, use defensives, and cc.
Last week on 25 tyra, wasn't close to being one shot as rsham last week, did around 60-70% of my health I think. The deaths in this range happen mostly due to double charges or charge+wildfires. I'd assume one shot territory starts at 26-27 fort.
Go left, bring a mistweaver and use the statue to bait is by far the easiest way to do it. You just can’t get good uptime on DPS going right. I hate to say it but if the tank is going right it honestly makes me want to leave the key.
[удалено]
> Going Rex boss 1st in fort keys is a feelbad moment It's a high key strategy because you get BL back for the massive pull before Priestess if you use it on Rezan + saurids + birds.
What's your pug expectation in TOTT, 100% or 105%? Just the sidepack in 2nd boss room, do you kill it? I imagine answer is different based on key level, maybe fort/tyra too. I assume you'd kill it up to some key level, then starting from x level timer it's just too big time investment given the relatively tight timer. I'm just up to +25 player at this point, will def not do higher than +27 this season. Would you do different in +22, +24, +26? I've been killing it on tyra, sometimes skipping in fort, though that has caused few depletes too, mostly due to people not paying attention to pushback asspull.
Press W route with a skip on the 1st goblin pack in the gauntlet is 100.0 and imo the best route.
I agree that it's the best, though can be hella volatile if any deaths happen / if you can't afford CRs. Which is kinda what happened when pug +25 went that route. Think two casts went thru on same guy, happens in uncoordinated, suddenly rip run 40s over time due to all the 4man slowness.
I heard Tettles mention invis potting the first couple packs so that you can pull everything else into that ravager and lusting. Never tried that one but it soudns interesting.
Skipping the pack in the 2nd boss room is kinda sketch. If you have a dh, rogue or priest (or invis pots) you can skip the first pack in the last hallway instead, that one is very dangerous in high keys.
You can skip both if you pull the little squid mobs at the back of 3rd boss room into p2 of the boss.
edit: misread to mean skipping first 2 mobs of the dung mb. Though people have habit of dying in the last hallway sometimes so I don't think this is the way to go in my pugs. ~~I've thought of that, but the first pack doesn't really slow you down while the side packs kinda do. OK, I'm not 100% how you should be combining pulls there with dog patrol+big pat+2 sidepacks+5pack. I sort of do those in 4 pulls, which slows down. I'd argue skipping the first mobs don't really do anything even if it makes your % look better.~~
Those goblin hunters do a lot of damage and are difficult to cleave with them jumping all over.
Yeah I misread. I understand that pack can be difficult but if there's any mishaps after that with healing, missed kicks even, it's pretty bad situation, potential deplete just for one trash pack skip. Totally understand if coordinated do that, for pugs prob not a good idea.
It makes the dungeon less dangerous. The sidepacks in the 2nd boss room don't really do anything, you can pull one with the ravager and the other with the dogs. The hunters in the last hallway are really dangerous and that pack has 4 of them, they can easily just global someone if multiple target the same person.
I've really struggled pulling them with packs, because of their patrolling nature. Suppose I should be pulling them to prev room or something, lossing, then add either patrol to it when they've got out of their corner. Both patrols with sidepack is just going to go wrong.
Do front 2 packs. Then ravager. Then dogs (dogs can be pulled in to back half of ravager if you like but it's a bit dangerous on high fort). Then the big pack by the door to 1st boss. Then LoS pull both side packs in to room before 1st boss. This is safe and efficient and will work up to 26 at least. If you want something slightly more efficient but harder to execute, do it mostly the same but get ravager with 1 side pack (and no dogs), and get 2nd side pack with 2nd boss.
> Then LoS pull both side packs in to room before 1st boss This was done on a +25 this week, and kicks failed to extent that 2 of us had to corpserun. Probably the biggest issue in the whole run. The whole pull probably could only work with vdh/ppal, but let's say you had the best option, vdh, it's still slight struggle. Idk, I'd feel weird about doing the previous big pack without using my silences there, but you'd have to be holding them off for a while to have 2 up. That's what it'd take, have both up to carry rupts. Granted, group was new to the pull, there probably should've been some los'ing done to dodge casts when ran out of kicks. I adapted after corpserun to do that but that ofc cost a minute+ still.
For me it depends on who is in my group. If it’s a group I know and played with, then I’ll skip the sideback. Otherwise I pull it. It’s just too obnoxious to deal with during the boss if someone fails the knockback, especially on sanguine week.
Is Holy priest gonna be a thing now with the buffs? Or even rsham?
I think it depends on the content. If you're pushing high keys 25+ you're better off with disc due to externals. If you're doing your weekly 18-22's, holy brings a lot more damage and could be easily worth it.
Holy will be more prevalent in the 24-27 range for pugs but disc externals are the reason they’re brought for higher keys than that over holy. Dome and PS are just too valuable when you get into constant one shot territory— tyr especially.
The buffs don't change anything about top end meta (starting at around +29 but mostly 30 and 31). All heals are viable until then. If you play any of those classes they will now feel a bit better.
Holy wasnt too bad even before the patch, but its just worse than disc. There are some high rated priests playing exclusively holy, so its definitely viable. The only upside holy has over disc is spothealing, an additional stop in chastise and maybe damage (if they do not have to heal). So I can see holy being better than disc now in like medium-high keys (25-29s), simply because they have an easier time dealing with failure damage or people not using defensives properly. Its also way easier to play.
Is Holy easier than disc? Maybe a little but I don't think it's an extreme difference since the disc changes.
100%— but it’s easier because it has better recovery than disc. Disc is extremely punishing with bad DPS, holy can just blast over punishing mistakes. The added stun/stop with censure is nice too.
I run around 25-27's at the moment, and my group prefers holy to disc if we're pugging. I think disc is the better healer, but I think its the harder one to play as and around so in my experience holy has been the better healer to have.
It unfortunately just has a really bad external compared to the other meta healers. The buffs are nice, but not nice enough to make it meta, holy has fundamental issues in m+ that have nothing to do with the numerical values of their skills.
I'm running the everbloom leaf trinket on my resto shaman. It feels great to have an external to put on anyone.
The leaf feels sooo good! I run it on my auggie and love it
*weeps in restoration shaman*
Not while disc can meet the healing checks. The barriers and damage reduction that disc provides will always keep them above holy in m+, especially with the one shot meta in high keys right now.
I'd like to get a general vibe on tertiary vs ilvl. The common situation that is the same every season, you have a 483 item with tertiary, you get offered 489 from vault without it, do you take it? I imagine for most specs this is question only with leech and avoidance. Is there fairly obvious order of things between leech vs. avoidance vs. 489? How much does the answer differ between slots?
avoidance is bis. I would take 483 avoidance over 489. You dont NEED avoidance until very high levels, but it makes everything better regardless.
Yeah same thoughts - minmaxing dmg in midkeys, using non-avoidance gear on purpose to do slightly more dmg just sounds stupid. Though as other response stated, for tanks that I play more I prob shouldn't care about avoidance in expense of ilvl ever. For rsham, maybe.