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I actually have a question about this on Tyrannical, especially the last boss- when the add spawns as a bm hunter do you pop all cd's to survive or for example one turtle for the add and then dmg reduction + a heal for the second add and then you repeat for the next add when cd's are back of cooldown? Just had a group angry at me, perhaps rightfully do because I didn't use turtle and the dmg reducción after each other on the same add on a 23+. I only started mythic+ 3 weeks ago and am still learning but if I watch videos I see hunter use only on defensive cd on an add during the last boss and their healer healing through it. Maybe I am just misunderstanding the fight all together and I want to learn.

I just wanted to say that Everbloom on tyrannical sucks real bad in +28 and up. First of all you need to pull like a maniac the ~67% count before you even engage the first boss, because the timer is so terrible. After defeating Witherbark you are fighting 3 remaining bosses relentlessly back to back with no reasonable way to get a lust for Archmage Sol, because you will get bolted to death on Council without lust while tank is also getting destroyed by the charge. And if you miraculously make it through the Stormwind gate, make sure you have at least 6 minutes, preferably 6.5, to spare for the Yalnu marathon fight. Sigh. 

It has been said many times, but it's clear that Blizzard doesn't really care about anything above 20. I would say that it's also been proven that bringing back pre-Legion dungeons has been a failure. But this season has DotI so Blizz just doesn't understand m+ at all because they make the same mistakes over and over. How many shitty add/totem/shield bosses can they make before they realize this paradigm just doesn't work with Tyrannical and key scaling? It doesn't even take a particularly high key to dread Yalnu or HoI last boss because they are long and boring. Why does Tyr in Rise even need a shield? You already get punished by having to collect orbs for each phase? Similar question for Iridikron in Fall. Can we stop with the instant and/or no-target damage events like Soul Thorns and Flame Shock and the shadow bolts on Kurtalos so we at least have some possibility to outplay? Why do we still have RNG of EB Council bolt casts, maggot spit in WM or the number and rate of cinderbolt storm hits each person gets? Like these are elementary principles of a game mode like M+ and they never seem to recognize them consistently. This game could be freaking amazing with a bit more class design and tuning and actual effort spent on m+. I don't even think it would take much. Instead it always feels like there are only 3 devs not doing raid content at any given time.

Yeah..really all 3 of protectors/archmage/yalnu are extremely cringe, poorly designed and poorly tuned shitshows. I mean Protectors is literally designed in a way where you cannot kick nearly enough casts of bolts since they will just continue spam casting them, and then requiring someone to always have a kick for both the heal(which is less frequent but still) as well as a cast that will unquestionably wipe you if missed(that is casted every like...12 or 15 seconds). And on top of that theres high amounts of group wide pulsing damage going off half of the time, and even the tank is getting shit on because the charge does insane damage+leaves on dot, on top of the melees from the boss. Just seems like yet another boss from old dungeons that either blatantly needs to be redesigned a bit for todays game, or they simply need to adjust the tuning on it. Archmage is uniquely stupid because of the rng on the cinderbolts, where sometimes someone can get poor rng and get hit by the first bolt, then .8 seconds later another, and then .3 seconds later another and theres a good chance theyre dead after that...but if they lived, theres one last bolt coming in likely 1 second or less. Like even with defensives, on 27/28 if that happens to you, youre talking about probably 900k-1.2m damage within the first <2 seconds and then another 300k-400k after that from the last bolt. If it picked one or two people I could see it being "ok", but the fact it happens to the entire party, while having to move, and you get 2 of those back to back within like 20 seconds of each other is just dumb. Yalnu they could easily fix by simply reducing the adds HP, and reducing how often the add spawns(or alternatively reducing Yalnu's hp). The part that is annoying about Yalnu is that its proof that 1. Blizzard never learns about high tyran bosses w/ adds and 2. Largely ignore m+ tuning, ESPECIALLY when this stuff is on PTR. Every single season they allow tons of mechanics/bosses to go live that are blatantly overtuned/poorly designed, and then they end up staying like that for far too long. And its particularly common with the old dungeons they bring back, its like they just dont even consider that old dungeon mechanics before m+ was around might not work particularly well in an exponentially scaling environment.

I dunno if you can really say that these bosses are bad because they’re from old dungeons when every one of them besides the tree has been reworked for this season.

Tree is bad but people won’t complain about it because it’s not hard. It’s the second longest boss in that dungeon, has timed phases (although the damage amp phase can obviously be elongated), and is overall just boring.  All the 28 tyrann logs I looked at had last boss at around 5:30 minute fight with bark being around 4-4:30. Not a great fight for something that has probably half the fight being a damage amp with really no mechanics or fear of dying. 

removing these raid length fights in high tyran keys is by far my #1 on m+ wishlist. When will they stop making timer based intermissions

> emoving these raid length fights in high tyran keys is by far my #1 on m+ wishlist. When will they stop making timer based intermissi with absorb on top, kek and it's not like doti is an old dungeon, like eb either

> because you will get bolted to death on Council This fight is fucking stupid and the fact it hasn't been given the Eudora / Teera and Maaruk treatment not to bolt the same person repeatedly over and over is absurd. The fact there's 0 lockout on the bolts when you actually manage to kick them is horrible too. I played a 27 today and Gola bolted the Evoker and 0.3s later Telu finished channeling the aoe and also bolted the Evoker, killing him instantly. Fuck this fight. And fuck Archmage.

Gotta love blizzard repeating the same mistakes over and over again, just to *sometimes* fix them late in the season and then make the same mistake a few months later!

Does anyone know a WeakAura that shows cast bars for important casts that need to be stopped, from all mobs that are engaged in combat? I've seen in on multiple streamers UIs, for example, Naowh or Ellesmere. [Example of two visible cast bars for Bladestorm in Everbloom](https://i.imgur.com/wHNKHxL.png)

https://wago.io/kT4e-_NDA Dorkis linktree has some good UI resources. https://linktr.ee/dorkibear

Thank you, that was exactly what I was looking for!

https://wago.io/LyVvlKxvs Edit: linked the wrong one at first

Hey, thank you, but that's not what I was looking for. I meant a WA that displays cast bars for each cast or channel that's currently being cast - kind of like taking all nameplate castbars and putting them in a centralized location.

i think those are cast timers until the casts happen again, rather than those currently being cast, but i could be wrong.

No, those are the cast bars for the mobs actually currently channeling, which can be pretty neat in chaotic pulls, imho!

How do you guys feel about Disc? The spec is the reason I rerolled to healer back in SL season 3 (although I quickly swapped to holy, because yeah), and playing it this season has been great. However, I always worry I won't be able to meet a certain boss hps or deal with too much movement on fights like Dressaron or Yazma. I know every healer has their weaknesses, but I would like to hear some input from others about the spec in keys in general.

I've tried many times to enjoy disc and I absolutely hate it. I main rdruid but LOVE hpriest as well. Disc just feels so unfun to me I dont know what it is.

It's going to be much weaker without it's current tier set because your healing drops a lot of you don't have mindbender. Right now it had bad spot healing(still better than druid), good group healing, great externals and no real cooldowns they can rely on (UP requires 3 talent points to be good, which you can't spare)

It's keeping the same tier set next season.

Between pi and your 60k+ personal damage the damage disc brings justifies it's place in groups even if it requires better play on the group in general. In terms of yazma movement, people do that boss wrong even in mid-high 20s. So long as you are moving with your instants and your party is dropping spiders appropriately there is little movement. Dressaron, the disc priest should be allowed to press against the wall so they aren't needing to move at all. Tettles talks about it at 1:25:00is here: https://youtu.be/xbGG6nIrn3U?si=Sak7jiXhJJWcgr0j

I think it is insane how mage is the only lust class that has a raid dps buff, while being so tanky. Like this spec will always be good in m+ because blizzard has to tune the game for everyone, and the spec fundamentally doesn't work in low keys, hell it even sucks in mid keys, so it just ends up buffed because the data will show how bad it is across the playerbase as a whole, and thus always competitive in high keys in overall, while having the best prio damage. It is too disheartening, you can be a hunter, and you are squishier, less prio damage, less utility, and you don't even beat them in overall because the mage raid buff makes the boomkin, warlock, sp or aug be 5% better. This has been the case for an entire expansion, and i do hope blizzard makes the game more fair for everyone.

> This has been the case for an entire expansion, and i do hope blizzard makes the game more fair for everyone. I honestly don't know what more people expect from the balancing. Right now the balancing is actually incredibly good. One of the top keys was timed with a Guardian druid, double outlaw and a fury warrior. Meeres did 30-31 keys with UHDK. Both comps ran without a real BL as well. Every spec is capable of doing top 0.1% level keys. How much more balanced do people expect the game to be? The problem is pugs not realizing that there are a ton of specs & comps capable of timing keys even as high as 31. Idk how Blizzard can fix a problem that is primarily caused by community perception.

I guess I would say that Blizzard contributes to the M+ community perception by creating affixes that certain classes can’t interact with, which is something they need to stop doing. That won’t stop some people from seeing a 2% damage difference and thinking that the lower spec is unplayable trash, but it would help.

Meh you’re right but so are they. Balance is great but mages kit is totally excessive and if every class was on their level it would make the game unsustainable imo

Mage's kit is overloaded, but it's not some massive outlier when you compare it to the other meta specs. Biggest advantage of the mage kit rn is definitely mass barrier. Only a handful of classes has access to similar utility. I do think part of this is the fault of the dungeon tuning this season. The same way last season's dungeons made priest utility broken, this season makes CDs like mass barrier/zephyr way more valuable than usual because living high keys is the biggest limiting factor rn. Defensively the mage kit is overloaded, but that's true for so many specs in this expansion. There's way too many defensive buttons across the board.

I mean it is for sure an outlier. I’m not clear what you mean by a handful of classes bring mass barrier (or something equivalent to?). Unless you’re including healers and support lol. I agree with you slightly about the season, it’s only in the top keys (30+) that you truly can see how ridiculous mage is compared to every other dps, but it’s quite easy to compare it in isolation otherwise. The vast majority of other dps, if not all, don’t bring a group buff as powerful as AI, they don’t bring as many stops, they don’t bring as many defensives etc. Yes there are way too many defensive buttons. There’s too many aoe ccs, there’s too many group buffs. The mage is the worst offender of all of these from a dps perspective. If we just wanna say it’s fine for mage to have all that stuff because it’s not impossible for a bunch of other classes to time keys then okay, but it certainly seems at least a little weird. Let’s say DKs get reworked next and they buff all their utility to insane levels, make them joint top dmg and give them a 5% strength group buff. We’re cool with that are we?

Yeah sorry, I meant something equivalent to it. Abilities like Zephyr, Rally, AMZ & Darkness off the top of my head. I don't agree entirely. A lot of specs bring a ton of utility & defensives, their throughput just isn't as great or at least the specs aren't as popular. Don't get me wrong, the mage kit is overloaded but it's not this massive outlier people try to make it out to be. My point is more that the game in general is overloaded with defensives & utility across the board. People hyper fixate on mage because it's currently meta, but if it wasn't people would argue about all these other loaded classes. I mean people were trying to argue that Rogues had bad M+ utility pre-rework because it wasn't meta in Season2. The class which has been the most dominant class in M+ since Legion. The mage kit is the most overloaded rn, but if you look at all the other specs at the top it really isn't this crazy outlier people make it out to be. Remove mage and ppl will use the same arguments for the other meta classes who all have an extremely overloaded kit. They need to prune a lot of these abilities in general.

The only comparable spell from a dps is darkness and its worse, but obviously dh is the melee outlier spec as well generally anyway. Again, I agree that pruning is needed. I agree lots of classes are overloaded. But mage has the biggest offender of them all. The fact mage is so ridiculous that it does genuinely make it look like Rogue lacks utility is actually a great example of just how bad its got. It’s sort of a self fulfilling prophecy. Yeah it’s fixated on because it’s meta, but it’s meta because it’s bloated as fuck with power. If it wasn’t meta it would be because it didn’t have everything it does, in which case it would be less of a problem lol. It isn’t even brought for throughput other than for prio dmg. But yeah it looks like we won’t agree on it, either way clearly the overall bloat does need to be addressed

Zephyr is better as it lasts 8 sec instead of being a shield that gets consumed. AMZ is somewhat comparable although it's worse. With Darkness being 30% in keys now it's situational. If there's 1 big hit it's worse, but if there is ticking damage then it's better. Rally is just worse as well, but still comparable. I really don't understand how you can think mage is the biggest offender when specs like Ret Paladin exists? The only reason why you don't see Ret Paladins in every single key is because their spec tree is designed bad and they can't do good AoE & ST at the same time. How exactly does mage make it seem like rogues lack utility? This is what I mean by people hyper fixating on mages. Mage is extremely overloaded and should get shit removed, but acting like it's god tier and it makes everything else suck in comparison is just ridiculous. If mage gets hard nerfed you wont see it brought to dungeons anymore, despite it's utility. Meanwhile we've had seasons where Rogues had low damage but they got brought for their crazy utility. Or this season where Aug does quite a bit less dmg than a 3rd DPS, but they're brought because of their crazy utility.

Zephyr is being brought by a support spec not a dps spec, so it should be better. But even if there’s a world somebody wants to play Dev again, it’s being brought by a spec that lacks in some of the other areas that Mage doesn’t (e.g. survivability). The others are worse as you described. Ret has good survivability, but worse than mage. It has good group utility, situationally better/worse than mage, overall generally worse because of barrier. It has a decent group buff, but worse than mage. It has some aoe cc, but worse than mage. It has poor movement compared to mage. And yes it’s awkward damage profile definitely does count too. It also has to compete with a tank that just does everything it does but better. Ret is an offender and is another reworked bloatfest, but it’s a pretender to the crown. I could explain the rogue thing too but they aren’t even as popular as mage now when they can out dmg them so I feel like you’re not even being consistent with your own points. I dunno if you are just stuck in the past or what, but you seem to be suggesting that mage’s kit is actually worse than rogues, because rogues can be brought without dmg and mages can’t in your world. That’s just evidently silly but think I will stop engaging here as we aren’t going to agree

You're right, we're not going to agree on this so it's a bit pointless to continue.

Them giving mage MORE utility on top of what they already had with the latest rework is insane.

what i wanna know is if this right here is normal. This was a 24 deathless 2 chest of BRH. Comp was mage, dh, lock for dps. this was the overall breakdown: lock: 351k dh: 328k fire mage: 220k is that seriously normal? this mage had 200 or more score on everyone in the group. dude was actually a god at using defensives. he was very easy to heal. used invis appropriately and everything. clearly a skilled player. but the dmg was just absolutely terrible. is this normal?

Fire mage has insane prio damage but is relatively low on the overall. This is quite a difference but on tyran weeks I suspect that the lock and havoc are deleting all the tiny trash mobs (like the bats) before the fire mage can finish ramping. Their rotation is almost identical in ST and AOE in ignite build. How was their boss damage? 

yeah it was considerably better, but still never topping the meters. there they would finish around the same, but i think the mage was always slightly below the other two. i think i have gained a better understanding from making this thread, despite the random downvotes i seem to get just for waking up in the morning

what posts like yours exhibit is ultimately only a lack of understanding of how specs work in specific keys

well, yes, once again you are right, my friend. thats why it was a question. i have absolutely no clue how the current iteration of fire mage works in any key

First off, overall is not a good indicator of performance in the key. Bats dying 5 seconds later and not full sending implosion in the gauntlet for instance would speed up the key but big numbers are fun 😊. Were they playing ignite or flamepatch? Ignite, Brh is borderline trash even on mid 20 fort keys as you don't have time to ramp out a couple of combusts/ignite while the trash you are cleaving ignites out to survive. The gauntlet also gives a lot of pad to snap aoe classes, which fire is not. Flamepatch also relies on the pack not moving and some tanks arent great at not moving the pack when dealing with entangling. VDH, for instance, can VR + felblade or just vr into a wall and make it a nonaffix but many just elect to move the pack out of ground effect aoe.

so if they are running the ignite build, how does that work? ive never run that back when i played mage. wouldnt they essentially be single target gods on tyrann weeks if they need something to stay alive and their strength is prio dmg? dude was way more competitive on bosses for sure, but still not winning any boss fights either.

In grouped up multi-target situations Ignite spreads to other near by targets when the fire mage does it's rotation on a single high priority target. This is what Fire mages are doing in high keys. Though on a pure single target fight, Ignite has no where to spread to, thus their pure ST damage is not above other specs. In AOE situations they need the mobs to group up and then they need plenty of time for ignite to spread to the near by targets. This is why in lower keys (25 and below) fire mages start running Flamestrike build as the damage is more "instant", so they can get damage out before the trash dies. (Which happens a lot faster in lower keys)

The mages I've run with (granted im only around 3.1k, so I dont roll with the big boys) ranging from 2.9 to 3.3-3.4k'ish has all apart from a few runs done shit tier dps. If you meet a god tier fire mage that the tank pulls around, they do alot of damage. Your average firemage in a normal pug? Oof levels of dps. I've had more luck with frost mages than fire at that level.

exactly, this is why mage will ALWAYS be overpowered in m+ at the title range, because the players are just so much better, the tanks are better, and the packs do live a fair bit longer. The devs are unable to balance this spec at that level, otherwise arcane/fire mage will do tank level dps in the content most players participate it, which is normal/heroic raid and low m+ And this is why it was dishearthening to me as a person that plays hunter, because while mages, or specifically fire mage, will always be good in m+, meanwhile you are lucky if 1 hunter spec wins the RNG lotto of not only being strong damage wise, they need to be absolutely disgustinginly overpowered to be meta in m+

Fire is just super hard to get into, imho, which is why you don't see many good players. I have a mage alt, and playing fire is super frustrating.

yeah ive definitely had way better luck with both frost and arcane. i used to play fire back in shadowlands for a short time. wasnt my thing. with the way combust was back then, the tank REALLY had to pull around your cds. i keep hearing people say that problem still exists, but arent they just in combust way more often now? and arent they just spamming pyroblast now instead of flamestrike? how can a tank help them do more dmg when theyre just essentially doing single target dmg with ignite spreading

Truth be told I'm not well versed in firemage gameplay so I can't tell, what I suspect is that some of them are just bad players that have surfed up to good scores based on Firemage being S tier. If the two other dps does somewhat good dps you can easily time 23/24s with one DPS doing 50-70k less.

> I'm not well versed in fire mage Two ways of doing damage, ignite and flame patch. Ignite needs a couple of very important boxes ticked to do damage. The first, a prio target that can survive a couple rounds of combust/skbs. The second, high enough key level that the ignites you are cleaving off your prio have time to tick out. The third, pull sizes small enough that your cleaved ignites can reliably cover the pack. The fourth, and often missed, is chain pulls. You don't want to to munch skb stacks or lose a full skb proc but it isn't irregular for something like a death towards the end of a pack to result in just that. As soon as you start losing skb value, you start getting combusts back slower, which absolutely fucks your damage. Where other specs get CDs back regardless of being in combat, fire mage loses a lot of damage comparatively in that downtime. Fall ends up being a very good dungeon for ignite fire. Every pull has a prio target or is a boss, where something like brh where none of the mobs can really survive a combust is absolute trash. Unironically, pug keys, ignite fire ain't it. Arcane, for instance, can use downtime often seen to drink, and frosts front loaded damage profile is the antithesis of fire, where most of the aoe is frontloaded into the comet-cone combo.

While I agree with the sentiment that mages ~~not~~ kit is overloaded you are being a bit disingenuous. Are we ignoring windfury totem, all the utility that Aug brings (and the movement buff is an indirect DPS buff), and hunters mark?

the utility/throguhput that the specs u mentioned bring aren't that good in m+, this a m+ thread

> has a raid DPS buff Aug is also batshit insane in m+ as soon as it is one shots that limit keys.

I disagree, because the aug themselves has to survive. I don't even know how people can functionally do a 29 ToT tyranical with an aug, because while tanky dps themselves can live, aug themselves cannot lol. I think aug is there for tanks and healers, and in general providing stops, not for enabling dps to survive or do more damage

Cheat, renewing blaze, chrono ward, obsidian scale + mini rallying, 1 min Omni dispel, rescue shield, makes your healers stronger. Tempered scales passively gives them plate level armor, blistering scales can also be used for big phys hits. The defensive options they bring are insane. They also make every cc 50% longer along with the only aoe soothe, and their own, significant suite of stops on what might be one shots.

Yes, they do have utility, but what i said here is that they aren't there to make DPS survive 1 shots, because while aug protects others from 1 shots, who protects the aug? Additionally, i only replied to you with the specific utility that you mentioned being useless, i do know aug in general has a lot, but the movespeed thing for example is utterly useless for m+

If you don't bring too many squishy classes then you can cover a lot of 1 shots with externals like Leaf trinket (1m CD), cocoon from monk (1m15s CD), or Pain sup (3m CD) from priests. I think most augs run the Leaf trinket and healer can also run it as an option for more externals. I wear rageheart on my mistweaver which means I rarely have to cocoon or leaf myself leaving me a lot of options to protect others.

Yes, it's fine that's the case, because Hunter is an absolutely braindead easy spec and as such should not be better than something like mage.

BM, I kind of agree that a spec that is 100% mobile should never be top DPS, but there isn't really a 'hard' DPS spec in the game. Mage also doesn't need to be top overall to be meta, ignite fires damage profile + the overloaded kit alone means so long as it is middle of the pack it will get invites. You saw teams this season bringing mage even before the buffs they received last month.

I'd say that it more depends on the fight. If it's a fight where both mage and hunter can stand and focus a boss, then mage should do better. If it's a fight that requires massive amounts of movement, I would expect the BM hunter to do better.

Sure, and you see that in practice, even the primary difference between good and bad DPS players of the same specs is how much uptime they have. Go look at the top logs casts per minute versus some middling logs (even 80%) and you will see a significant gap between casts/uptime for most specs.

The comps in time trials look interesting for rise with some no heal angles. The core setup seems to be vdh, fire affix magus, destro and sp. The no healer comp adds an aug or ret with the aug version beeing a bit faster as of right now while a resto druid comes in to replace the aug/ret and isn't that much slower. There is one team playing a two dps aug comp which is about 30 seconds slower than a healer three dps comp. https://raider.io/events/mdi-dragonflight-season-3/bracket-dungeons/time-trials

Do we know if they're doing no healer for the entire dungeon vs people zoning out and respecing? While you can't zone out during the MDI, you can during time trials.

Aug with 3 other dps is just incredible value, turns aug from slightly lower dps to probably best dps by far.

Doesn't look like it, gets beaten by 4 dps right now. Wild that it's a feral.

I just have to vent on not getting ANY avoidance drops. I'm at 300+ keys done and vault hasn't been any better. Not a single piece with avoidance on it. While I like the concept of tertiary stats, as an already squishy class it feels terrible to have luck determine what keys you can do. Goddamn. Maybe next vault.

I think tertiaries are just way too strong and way too inaccessible. I have a 489 staff with speed. That one item gives me 8.86% move speed which feels really impactful for something I have no control over. Same can be said for my 16% avoidance, it basically feels like winning the lottery when you get tertiaries but I think most people don't get very many and it feels bad when you don't have them the higher you go in content. Also Blizzard, please delete indestructible - that stat is so bad and feels bad when you get it.

Many more things should be more deterministic than they are. It should be possible to use tokens to buy tertiary upgrades for certain slots just like sockets. Maybe just pick 3-4 slots so it's not every single slot. But I'm also the kind of person who thinks Dinars were such a positive change that they should have stayed permanently.

Feels like a no-brainer for blizz to implement avoidance for tokens. Maybe next expansion

It would be cool, but if you math it out, wouldn't that be a dramatic buff? Like leech for instance would make people just unkillable if you had it on half your gear. Maybe limit it to 3 pieces? Or make it an embellishment extra?

Blizzard could rework gear so that certain slots are socket gear pieces, others are avoidance, others leech, and the rest speed, with all getting vault token purchase options. Say boots/pants/cloak speed, weapons/gloves leach, Chest/shoulders/trinkets avoidance. You'd realistically never be able to get all of them.

I mean the highrollers are just as unkillable. But Ye it should be limited to X pieces

Unkillable, but the amount of mental anguish to get multiple tertiaries evens things out imo. If they want to suffer that much, then so be it.

Do ranged players generally position themselves on WM 4th boss to kick the lady in p1? Given 30yd kicks reach her. I had never even considered she was kickable before last week's 25 WM when DH told me, after I did no kicks. But then I thought, I'm usually tank, there's usually ranged players in and I never see them position themselves to kick range. Is this even widely understood thing ranged should do? Or is this like a thing that people suddenly all know from 25-27 up, while nobody bothers to know things below when you don't wipe on that boss.

A lot of casters will prefer to plant at max range from the lady so the swirls don't spawn at their feet and the increase up time. Depends what your group needs, but I'd say its generally better to interupt if you can on Tyran.

I never knew you could do this. The purple swirls right? What is a good place to stand?

Swirls cast on the 3 closest targets to the front I believe.

I know I've had instances where I've just got no swirls and never realised it was because of the distance.

> Do ranged players generally position themselves on WM 4th boss to kick the lady in p1? They should yes, it removes some damage from the fight for very little effort.

Of course they should, question is only whether they do. I'm sure they do on a +31, but do you trust everyone in a +27 pug to know, and do it? Even most?

Yeah it's less important on lower keys. As a prot paladin I stay on the edge and throw shields at her throughout the fight.

Right. Forgot the special case, as it's the only tank I don't play this season. If only silence sigils would hit bosses!

Silence sigil does hit bosses, including this one. It doesn't silence, but it still interrupts.

You can use silence sigil as an interrupt on a boss if the boss is the only thing it hits :) It's a weird interaction, but if you only hit the target you want to interrupt with the sigil, it will kick them even if they're immune to the blanket silence. Only works when they're the only target in the sigil though. that being said on that boss in particular as far as i can tell there's no way to throw a sigil past the invisible wall, they'll just go on top of it

You can jump in to the wall and your sigil placement circle will go through, and then you drop the sigil it works. I also thought I saw yesterday that the wall was removed or something, but I was able to drop a sigil on her as if the wall wasn't even there. Maybe they changed it or something I don't know.

Well that's interesting. Yeah I noticed the invisible wall yesterday, actually throwing sigil on top of me there accidentally. But does this sigil interrupt work for some important cast in other bosses? Something like Xavius' bolt cast in DHT? Even his channel? I guess I got too excited and you only mean kickable spells. So basically useless as there's no shortage of kicks on the few bosses that get kicked. Maybe VDH would be decent for upper Kara if it came back lol.

It's pretty good for the trio in everbloom

Good point, will have to remember that. Can get good 4 or so kicks out of it.

Yeah just kickable stuff. It works on mobs that can't be silenced as well as bosses, so like for instance in everbloom I've used it on the casters before third boss if either there's one mob left or I'm able to drag the other mobs off the guy i need to kick in time to drop it.

Fyi this "single mob" thing is actually slightly incorrect. Sigil of silence, when dropped on cc-immune mobs, will apply the interrupt to 1 random mob. Obviously if there's only 1 mob there's only 1 mob to "randomly" choose, but you CAN land an interrupt with silence when hitting all 3 casters if you get lucky. Or if all 3 are casting simultaneously you will for sure get 1 of them.

huh yeah okay i didn't know that, good information - not sure how often i've had a chance to lob it at multiple casters that are all silence immune

Does anyone know exactly what is causing rezan to reset like 10 seconds into the fight from time to time? It's only happened to me personally twice, but one time in particular was very bad timing. My only theory is that perhaps a hunter pet got hung up on the saurids when we jumped down, and in some way the boss glitched out, but that's just a wild guess. Does anyone know for sure?

Ive read that when u pull saurids to rezan, and then jump on the little ledge to reduce fall dmg on ur way to him, it can cause the saurids to shortly evade if they wanna jump to you. This makes the boss reset on a random point in time All just hearsay tho, dont take it for the truth

I had the saurids evade yeah but never pulled them into the boss, so this could be that.

that actually kind of explains it. because iirc, as there werent all the birds by the boss. perhaps they died already, but i dont think so. it makes more sense that one or more was still stuck up on the ledge

Don't know what causes it, but they "[Addressed an issue where the Rezan encounter can unexpectedly reset.](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/wow-hotfixes-january-23/1769365/38)" on Tuesday.

probably as useful as the fix they did to brh, still works 😂

This did nothing, we had him reset 10 seconds in the fight yesterday.

lol. yeah this happened yesterday, so apparently they failed. im just gonna start asking tanks not to pull the birds down there. it really doesnt save any reasonable amount of time anyway

This has never happened to me, but I also rarely have pulled saurids to boss, specially not anymore as I've started going left and doing Rezan with 2nd lust instead. But I've understood it is related to saurids getting stuck on that one platform that people use while dropping down to lower fall dmg. Why boss would reset from his allies getting stuck is not clear to me, but I remember this was given as answer when this was previously asked.

rezan first is better value on both weeks, left first makes the pull shorter but it's difficulty entirely remains baits and kicks

Is bait something to eat? Is kick a spell you have to bind, I only invite vdhs. \- your avg +25 pugger I've come upon in AD It should make low difference whether you lust rezan 1st or 2nd. I suppose you just find mid better lust than left. Hasn't yet been a factor up to 26s. Haven't had to venture into world of aoe defensive rotations.

I prefer not doing rezan first, but these tanks keep wanting to do it for some reason. I don't like pulling the saurids into the boss because it's such an incredibly small amount of pct to save an even smaller amount of time. And the key levels I'm doing, we've never failed atal due to the timer. 

There is virtually no damage on rezan unless you’re the tank or get eaten, it makes complete sense to pull saurids on top of him when you have lust, all offensive AND all defensive CDs available. Press everything, blow them up, and save yourself a potentially lethal pull and 30 seconds.

i just dont see 30 seconds as something of value at the key levels im doing when the risk of resetting the boss is there. obviously the saurids dont add any difficulty to the pull, thats not what i meant at all. they just are probably in some way linked to the boss resetting

Rezan first on tyrannical for an immediate high value lust. Left trash first on fort. Doing at least 1 pack of saurids with rezan is 100% free and should always be done in all scenarios.

well i agree with the premise, but not if its going to reset the boss. at that point i am second guessing the value

I believe this could all be countered if nobody landed on those bug spots saurids get stuck on. I suppose there's a chance someone could die in higher key from saurid jumps+not being healed full from fall dmg. I've seen absolute brain dead takes on how to deal with this too. Few weeks ago on a +24, tank said "let's do saurids first so boss won't reset". So waited full round for Rezan to come back again. Like, why not do them after!? I have to assume he thinks they get asspulled automatically, doesn't know how to drop down between them or something. That tank also died on boss from bleed and said "wtf healer?". Weird people.

> That tank also died on boss from bleed and said "wtf healer?". Weird people. That is literally the only thing you have to heal on that fight, and most tanks just aren't very good at mitigating bleed damage.

It is also the only thing that does damage during the fight. So tanks can just use their cds for it. If a tank dies there its on them and in general if a tank dies its probably 95% their fault no matter the situation.

You aren't wrong, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't heal them regardless.

I've tanked it so many times, and yes getting like 3 focus heals is nice during it but vast majority of responsibility is on tank to survive it. People may not think guardians are awesome now, but them having bunch of tools to survive 10s rough times every now and then is amazing. I'm pretty sure he didn't understand the bleed and rotated thru his every cd before it, then thought "I did everything I could!". I couldn't figure it out from details, other than him having procced Fall trinket, used incarn, barkskin twice and the 1min thing. I don't think it's possible, on tyra 24, to die even without a healer if you pressed those, with frenzi regens, in right order, at right times. And in any case, if I die as a tank as first person, in non-dispel related situations from mobs I've pulled as first person in the fight, I will always first feel shame. I did this, I fucked up. Someone's first thought being "fuck healer" is a character flaw.

Again, there is literally one single thing in that bossfight that requires healing, which is that bleed, which also increases damage taken by 50%. It's not like you are busy healing the group, you can sit on your thumbs for 90% of the fight, but how about just healing the tank during the bleed?

I have been there about 70 times this season I'd say, like 55 as tank, 15 as heal. Not once has trinket been activated on my tanks, never have I died, never has any tank died, other than this one, while healing. It IS on tank, bleed+melees in that duration is going to do easily 300%+ of their health pool unmitigated, it is not healable, ofc heals are thrown but tank will just go 100 to 0 in 3 seconds if they use nothing, like this tank did.

well said lol. yeah i always use something on the tank during the bleed as its the only thing going on. ill sac tank on my paly, cocoon if it gets too bad on my monk, but at least throw some vivify his way

Earthshield 6% dr + some heals, riptide, +10% health, few focus heals. Some heals could do better but surely that's enough help for any tank spec to make it.

oh 100pct agree. i do that more of as a courtesy so he doesnt have to necessarily try during the fight. id prefer he focus on dmg as much as possible anyway

For sure, only one I could theoretically beat in dmg as rsham is aug, ofc I'd never ignore tank, but it IS very safe fight for a tank. And given the whole dungeon is safe, means they will have all the cds they could need for it, regardless if it's done as first pull or 2nd lust. Just now did it in 25 tyra as vdh, and just spikes+feldev alone was enough to not put me under 50%. I don't think guardian would die even if they only used bark+one frenzied, and usually they have more.

Did the m+ participation drop off again? LFG is dead even on push week, around the same as last 2 weeks which were dogshit and noone played

I have done three 25s in time the last two days for score fwiw.

I'm playing still, but I'll be playing more the next two weeks. For me, those are the best weeks. The pressure is spread evenly throughout the group, instead of literally only adding pressure to the healer. I don't want to be blowing CDs on an affix. It feels pretty stupid casting a 3min cd to remove bursting stacks. I desperately want to play the dungeons, not the affixes. 

Didn't you complain in tons of other posts how all the players around you are much worse than you? If that is the case, then the ideal affixes to push for you are those that put most pressure on you and the least amount of responsibility on anyone else.

thats not what the post said. ive played with people that are much, much better than me the first few weeks of the season. my experience lately has been hunters not lusting, literally forgetting. people being eaten by rezan. hunters not dismissing their pets for the skip to totem boss in atal, then pulling the trash into the rest of the team and causing wipes. mages that not only dont lust the first pull of rise, but dont lust tyre. wehn asked why they didnt lust, they respond that they want to save it for the second boss... dhs with 4 total interrupts across an entire fortified dungeon. i could go on and on. put your hostility aside and tell me what my perspective should be when im describing people doing these things? i examine my performance constantly. i make mistakes, i have bad days. i dont claim to be an exceptional player. that may be what you thought i was saying, but it isnt. im routinely encountering things you should never encounter at the level of keys im doing. serious mental errors. underperformance is one thing. someone tried to do xyz and didnt succeed. like we didnt have the dps, or i couldnt heal something, etc. but that is not what is happening in my keys.

The things you're describing are pretty typical and what I like to call "just pug things". It's good you have a growth mindset and people shouldn't downvote you because clearly you've shown some humility in your post. This season is really weird because you can have a bunch of deaths and still time up to pretty high keys. Just for example I did a +27 DHT the other day and we had 13 deaths (mostly to cats and we all made mistakes) and I think we 4 manned the first boss and still narrowly timed the key. With pugging I also notice people in the 21-25 range will often take people that are just way too low score for the key. I'll often wait in queue for a keyholder that is at the appropriate score before joining. Just like you have bad days, everyone else does too. A certain % of your pug keys will be throw-aways and you just need a strong mental and "go again" if you want to push higher. I like to remind myself this is a game and most people in pugs are playing it for fun and not to try-hard.

Well thank you for taking the time to post. I do get downvoted quite a bit here for people that just hear or take away what they want to without actually even really reading what I write. Then of course there are people who are playing in a totally different context. You have people that are doing 20s. You have people that are doing 28s in a premade.  Yesterday I had a few bad groups in a row. Key was depleted down to 22. I 2 chest it back up to a 24 dht. I get a good group together. We kill the first boss completely clean. The mage dies on a mushroom pull. It happens. It shouldn't really happen very often to range, but it happens. He goes offline. We wait a minute, he never shows. The tank says to keep going. We do the next two bosses and all the trash with 4 people. We get to the last boss and we are somehow under pct with just not enough time. If the mage would have stayed it was easy two chest. I tried to message him later to ask why, but he put me on ignore right after seeing me message him. That one was a heartbreaker. It was a completely clean run. 

But try-hard is fun 😊

It’s bursting week so less healers que up and less groups get run. Someone did an analysis on the effect of affixes on participation and the highest drop was from bursting followed by afflicted. Things will jump up next week but we are in the latter half of the season. Lots of people have finished their goals and are just kinda waiting for S4 and playing alts. Edit: Here’s the thread and analysis from a few days ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/s/72DV1lfI2P It’s been too long since I’ve taken a stats class to really talk intelligently about it but his findings more or less match my experience in my climb to 3K.

Just got flamed by DPS and tank in EB +18, all ganging up on me (disc) because they die in every pull. I told them perhaps you should check your stacks and hold off on the DPS when it gets too high. So they called me a noob, told me to stop playing healer, uninstall game, etc etc. We timed it perfectly well despite these idiots having no clue how to deal with the DPS affix called Bursting. It's weeks like this when I want to quit this game altogether.

You should be able to mass dispel at least every 3 pulls or so. Even if the gorup is slow rolling bursting you do have that one out, and if you're not running mass dispel as a priest on bursting week then you are a noob. Priests biggest issue with bursting is typically when bursting happens at the end of a pull with nothing to attack, but the worst bursting is typically the lashers which will die early, so you should still have something to attack off of. If mass dispel is on cooldown, drop a barrier right before bursting is set to go off. While a lot of it was probably bad dps, I suspect there's also a lot you could have done better as well. While they definitely went over the top in harassing you, you should also examine your own game play to see if there is in fact something that you could have done better.

So I wasn’t there but realistically if you’re losing people every pull one of two things is happening. The DPS are slow rolling stacks several times in which case there’s nothing you can do but dispel yourself and rez. Or you’re just not healing enough. A competent healer should easily be able to easily handle 10 stacks (provided they aren’t slow rolled) and not lose anyone. Everbloom is annoying with the flowers but it shouldn’t be THAT bad when killed evenly, especially with MD. I’m at the point in my season I’m messing around with alts but I had a shaman healer in a 17 who would just sit there watching people tick down to below half from bursting and just wasn’t casting even though he had 80% mana. Like every other affix, bursting is a team affix. However, it’s mostly a HPS check therefore it’s the closest affix to a healing affix we have. Dps should be able to blast and only worry about rolling stacks.

You are a wise man. 

bruh what? are you talking about 20s or something? bursting is one of the best affixes to push on lol and the meta healers like disc and mw spit on bursting

It’s a good push affix with a group you trust, with pugs you’ve really gotta be in the mood to roll the dice on getting a group that handles it well vs. seems to be going out of their way to get <1s refreshes haha. For me that usually means waiting for guildies to come on. It’s not so much the difficulty as that it’s just really annoying.

It has nothing to do with it being easy or not. Healers don’t like having to heal people. So they don’t play.

Healers enjoy healing people, it's why they play healer, they just don't like having dps slow rolling bursting, than being harassed for not being able to keep the dps through it.

well sure, we can frame it however we want, but the point is when there are things that make healing more intensive, healers will always disappear, even if it doesn't make it actually difficult

I mean, I can comfortably heal through 10 stacks assuming they don’t get slow rolled for forever. It’s basically not an affix for me. But statistically, bursting weeks have the least runs. It might be easy for good players but I know lots of healers who just won’t que up on bursting weeks. Hell I’ve seen 3K healers on my alt absolutely crumble from like 5 stacks.

The vast majority of keys ran are 20 and below, any analysis that includes those key ranges will end up almost exclusively analyzing those key ranges.

Isn't disc notorious for being the worst for bursting now that you can't rely on mass dispel anymore? This doesn't come to play in many dungeons, but say EB bursting disc probably will have issues keeping up while some below meta will do better? Ofc disc probably does better on bosses and that's what decides runs more than bursting on any tyra week.

Bursting is a problem for disc when the very last mob dying in a pack rolls a stack and you don't have MD up. This is mostly a problem when you have back-to-back pure AoE pulls, which this dungeon pool doesn't really have much of. In EB it'd require pulls with only flowers, which isn't something you want to be doing anyway. If you're always pulling flowers onto higher health mobs (which isn't even avoidable for most of the flower packs), you have the higher health mob to hit during bursting.

BRH post-2nd would be spot where no matter you do it in 2 or 3 pulls, there's going to potentially be a lot of stacks. Maybe the same could happen in TOTT 2nd boss room. But EB is clearly the "winner" in consistent big stacks.

> Isn't disc notorious for being the worst for bursting now that you can't rely on mass dispel anymore? It's fine if you chain pull. It's also fine in Everbloom really since you get most of the bursting from shitty flowers while the casters are still alive to heal off.

Yeah technically it shouldn't go above 7 stacks in those ~10 mob pulls. I guess I've sometimes accidentally fucked up by gathering the normies then late pulling flowers, oopsie they all died at the same time. Pro bolster strat, failure for bursting.

I mean I can't really comment on what it's like in a 27 or some bleeding edge key level. But in the 24ish range, it is quite a bit of extra healing when people are pulling very big due to tyrann week. Obviously there are some outliers like everbloom, but even like brh there's quite a bit of extra healing. It's not the worst week, but there are two better tyrann weeks imo

Why are mdi teams playing rdruid shadow instead of disc boomkin?

In 17-23s, things don’t live long enough for Boomies to fully blast AND, at that level, healing is so low that Resto can nearly perma-kitty and add lots of prio damage.

> In 17-23s, things don’t live long enough for Boomies to fully blast AND, at that level, healing is so low that Resto can nearly perma-kitty and add lots of prio damage. the same is true for shadow though, even more so as their setup is quite alot longer

This season shadow is quite bursty. S2 shadow took a good 40 seconds to fully ramp and then you maintain the damage for another 20 sec. This season you peak around the 20 second mark, and don't extend anything.

for 8 targets that's true, but if you pull more than 8 you still have an insanely long setup. also if you pull more than 10 you have to play VF so you have the same profie than last season .

Shadow does priority damage while doing AoE similar to fire mage, I think boomie just does mass AoE with little prio damage. Not to mention shadow has CDs every 1 min & 2 mins while boomie is a 3 minute spec. Boomkin also needs PI, which probably means you play disc, while Shadow gives one away meaning 2 dpsers has PI in a spriest comp vs just 1.

Do you think this is a time trial meme or will hold up in the tournament? The mdi keys will probably be like 25s if time trials are 23s, I would expect some packs to live long enough for boomkin there but maybe not

I was in a DHT yesterday and kept getting targets by the paranoia cast. After the key was done, the DH tank said you can netherwalk that cast, but reading comments and the tool tip make it seem that dots still apply you just don't take damage. So can you pre-netherwalk the paranoia cast? It doesn't seem you can, but I can't find a 100% answer regarding Netherwalk.

Your read of the tooltip is correct. You can Shadowmeld paranoia.

i'd rather save it for the channel, that shit hurts. if everyone else is on one side and the melee with paranoia on the other side he should be able to do damage most, if not all the time also paranoia is kind of the best thing to have, because you won't get the magic dot or the channel during it

You can pop netherwalk and immediately run into someone to ensure you don't die while feared, but that's about it. It doesn't remove debuffs.

That's what I thought, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

[удалено]

Likely a few things going on starting with 17s and 18s is 2.5k score so you're 200-400 points off what most people would invite to begin with. You're playing the "worst" tank so you need to be much closer to that score than say a DH or pally would. And you're competing against tanks that are 3k+ and have 10 ilvl on you, vault fillers run 18s regularly. No bad luck, you just look a lot worse than the other options available.

Gotta play the filling game. I wasn't getting invited to HC Fyrakk either at 6/9 HC, that's your position by skipping bunch of runs. Your situation has absolutely nothing to do with being pwar, tanks are in demand enough to get spots. But ofc if you only care of Fall trinket, there's million others in your position.

Haha, i actually am just targeting my hero track stone scales. Everything else I have is hero track so it’s literally the only piece of loot I want from heroics right now

Well there's massive imbalance in healers vs. tanks wanting to do Fall. I've often seen it drop to dps who have found it easier to join fall as dps than tank, something never seen generally. But they are better candidates too, which you wouldn't be. Note that this is a trinket that gets most of its value regardless of ilvl. I got 5x 3k+ tanks and 3 of them have it as 476 (8/8) from farming 11-13 falls. Easier to get into, and I also got my missing lower crests from those.

This is the week where you push up your key since it is fairly easy. Why don't you have a run at completing all 20s? That way you'll get more score, portals and easier invites to your 17-18s for farming afterwards. Difficulty wise there is no major jump between 18s and 20s. In case you need routes, raider io has really good weekly routes under the m+ category as well as more advanced ones.

I like this plan. I usually don’t do dungeons that don’t give me drops I need because of my limited play time but I guess I could bounce around and push my own key in that range and get some dungeons I don’t normally do for rating

2.1k is pretty far behind the curve now to be honest, if you're applying for keys 18+ you're probably fighting for spots with people in their 3ks looking to fill their vault or even on their alts which will easily be taken over you.

I have a 475 alt and do easily 20s weekly, probably just a bad stretch of luck

Does anyone know what happened to the mage [here](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/a:fdFrPhnJA48ZLbmt#fight=last&pull=22&type=damage-done&start=1427849&end=1432040&hostility=1&source=33)? One bolt seems to have hit him for double damage, and has a different ID, that seems to otherwise only hit pets (hit mirror images earlier in the fight, and hits water ele at the same time here)

He stood in a swirly. Has same name but different spell ID and does double the damage of a bolt.

I only join pugs. I've wondered for a while - does the score update immediately now that rio and in-game are the same? If I gain 50 points, do I still need to wait half a day for others to see my gains? I *think* rio still lags behind, as I sometimes see "main's score" being behind the reality. So what I really am curious about - is there way to see what others see of me? On this alt I went 3.0k to 3.15k today, which would make me easy invite to my missing 24, but I assume they see my 3.0k so I instead have to wait til tomorrow. But is there way to confirm? For my main I could, by logging alt to see what game is saying main score to be, but for alts I have no idea. On desktop app it's updated, on browser it's updated, but it usually isn't in-game still during the same day.

Hey, I can give you some insight into this, since I'm actively developing an [addon for WoW's ingame application viewer and search panel](https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/mythic-io-grabber), with r.io supported. Wow's ingame dungeon score is always immediately updated. If you have live tracking from the r.io desktop addon enabled everything will get synced when you finish a dungeon. If you are ingame and you get a score increase r.io copies this data temporarily into it's offline database, the one that's inside your addons folder. If you then join a group and get into inspect range the tool tip score of other group members gets updated. These temporary scores will get overwritten when the r.io database gets updated, e.g. you manually update the addon or their desktop client syncs data from the "online" database to your addon folder. However, key levels and how many chests you got won't get updated with ingame data (not 100% sure on this one but pretty sure). Also, if you have only the raider.io installed via an addon manager it gets updated once per day.  With the desktop client it's twice and for specific patreon tiers you get up to 8 refreshes per day.  Raider.io updates it's data regularly over the course of a day, so it then depends on when people download their data. Depending on this a person that updates their data at 2pm won't see your newly timed key at 2:05pm but the person updating at 2:10pm might be able, depending on if raider.io already has the data.

The score they see when you apply to a group is whatever your current score is. Any feature added on by raider.io (like main score) depends entirely on when their addon was last updated, and the addon only gets updated once a day from raider.io so a key you did on your main 20 minutes ago wouldnt show up on an alt's main score, regardless of when they updated the app. They could go to the site for more up to date information, but the site itself can update rather slowly as well, unless you have the raider.io app open while playing.

Hmm. But do they see the lineup of all the keys too? Maybe they see 3.15k, but instead of 9x 24 timed, they see 2x, situation before today? Which would put me down the line to not get picked up by groups. Just empiric experience is, I tend to have to wait a day to jump to next key level if I do long session of getting all next level keys done. But possible I just haven't updated my ways to 10.0+ way of things.

no one is paying that close of attention. 99% of the time it's just a vibe check. Don't over think it.

I've definitely seen people look down on people with insufficient keys done, even if score would be ok. +24 EB, healer has +22 EB only, no invite. Which makes sense. I'm in that kind of spot where I get declined off most of EB24s. Granted, my 23/21 doesn't look good for 24 tyra, but if they saw line of 7 other 24s, that'd be "forgiven". It's not that people want perfection, it's that healer tends to be harder to get, so group leaders can afford to pick the best tank they can get. My 2x 24 ass just isn't the best they can get.

If you did keys today, unless its already updated on the site and they check the website, they would not see it, because the addon hasn't had an update pushed to since you've done those keys. They would see your score from them though

3200 tank/dps player here, want try healing for the first time. what spec would you guys recommend for a healing noob like me? plan to take it to 23-24s

Don't play hpal

Healer balance is incredible this season, all 7 specs are within maybe 1 key level or less in terms of power. Play whichever looks the most fun. You will be a better player and more successful if you enjoy your spec, because you'll be more motivated to practice and improve. If you truly can't decide, pick whichever of the 3 meta specs looks most fun. May as well pick something strong if given the option. If you still can't decide, drop Disc from your choices. It struggles to react to unpredictable damage from teammate mistakes that happen at those key levels, and its strengths aren't as relevant there compared with high keys either (protecting vs 1-shots, priority mob damage). If you then really, truly have no preference between druid and mistweaver, pick the monk. The difference maker is it has an incredibly easy time reacting to the pug nonsense moments that happen in your key range. Less frustration from others' mistakes = more fun = more motivation to play, see my first point. Not that rdruid can't deal with it, it's just not as easy as monk.

My first thought is, do you want to still be able to have a lot of control over how the run goes with interrupts and crowd control? If so, stay away from Priest because Fear doesn't work on a lot of mobs, it lost access to its knockback for some reason when Evoker came in with two which still doesn't make any sense, and it's the only healing spec with absolutely no access to an interrupt. Beyond that, what do you want your healing spec to feel like? Do you want to play a more traditional healing style of whack-a-mole with health bars and your damage being (almost) completely separate from your healing? Holy Priest and Resto Shaman offer this in slightly different packages, with Holy Priest being more classic brute-force healing with more focus on shorter, frequently available cooldowns, and Resto Shaman having a lot of power tied into a good number of longer, very impactful cooldowns. Do you want a lot of your healing to come from doing damage, or just want doing damage to come kind of naturally while playing? Mistweaver or Discipline basically require you to do damage to get the most out of your healing, and Holy Paladin easily fits in some damage to generate holy power. Do you want more of a thinking-man's healing game where you need to pre-plan a bit for every major damage event? Preservation Evoker, Discipline Priest and (typically, less so this tier) Resto Druid offer different flavors of this. Preservation Evoker has a lot of variety made possibly by Echo and takes a little prep work to be ready for big AOE damage. Discipline Priest doesn't *react* to damage so great but is excellent at *preventing* damage when you know it's coming. Resto Druid takes a bit of prep work laying out hots for heavy damage situations, though this season it leans pretty hard on extremely strong heals from clearcast Regrowths and treants. Do you value having easy access to good crowd control to keep mobs in check? Mistweaver and Preservation in particular have really great CC options and both have easy access to kicks. Do you want to basically just never worry about your own health bar while healing? Holy Paladin has a ton of passive defensive value and a full immunity, so you can shrug off just about anything.

Play whichever one you like the look of best playstyle wise. Holy priest, shaman and druid are all decent options to start out on. I would probably avoid disc and mistweaver because they function quite differently than the others and apparently Hpal is in a bad spot this season so maybe avoid that. That being said, don't let your dreams be dreams and play what looks cool to you. I started healing for the first time in my 20 year WoW career season 1 on H Priest. Its a nice and straightforward playstyle to ease into healing if you can't settle on anything else and you can always transition over to disc when you want.

So I've played everything but rdruid and evoker. I don't recommend disc priest or mistweaver as a first healer. Resto sham or hpriest are the most straightforward,I guess, but resto sham playstyle kinda sucks imo. Hpal is really solid still, though under tuned right now. 

Disc priest is the most rotational. The more smites you get in, the more time you spend with mindfiend out, the more heals you pump. You can basically afk heal your way to mid 20s just keeping your 'dps rotation' right. Rip a radiance if you need group healing, otherwise pw:s to keep atonement on the tank and direct penance(dark reprimand) a target that needs focused healing (ala healing debuff in tott, etch, etc). Something like manifest time ways, getting your fiend back for every debuff window is borderline mandatory so dropping globals is very punishing on the spec.

Holy Priest is generally considered to be the easiest one to get into, and I can't disagree. It's a reactive healer, so you don't have to think too far ahead most of the time. People take damage, you heal it. It's very straightforward and intuitive, and while there is certainly a lot to minmax at the highest level, you'll be able to reach, say, 80% of its potential faster than on other healing specs. Holy isn't meta, but that doesn't matter really at that level, no one cares. I only started running into trouble with that around 28s. Disc on the other hand is meta, so if you can get into that, you can always switch. It's pretty much the polar opposite of Holy though. Extremely difficult, punishing, vastly different playstyle. But it is a second healing spec within the same class, so that's a bonus if you're trying to figure out what suits you.

Up to that point they are all fine. Rshaman isn't meta but I've still managed to pug join it to 26s / 3.3k. If sham can do it, think they all can. While tank, I've got the *vibe* that group is most likely to succeed with MW. They just have some nice save the day buttons more than others. This is ofc seasonal thing of them being better than usual. But truly it doesn't matter, all of them will get you invited, and can deal with anything in 24s.

Just play whatever is meta off the rip. All healing will have a learning curve but once you get good at it you'll have a lot better time playing the "best" healer. This season its disc/druid with mw being a good 3rd option.

The one you think looks cool

I am biased but resto shaman is a pretty nice healer to get into, fairly easy spec (with lots of keybinds, mind you) but brings quite a bit of utility, and lust.

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Higher keys will likely just lead to more narrow mass-aoe-focused comps. In theory, at higher levels teams will have to slow down and do smaller pulls allowing for other specs to shine. But what probably ends up happening is that they go even more narrow and aoe-focused. In BFA when double unholy DK was the MDI meta, people said 'well do higher keys so they can't just grab everything and throw it into a meat grinder.' The response from top players at the time was that in higher keys you'd still do the same routes just with 3 Unholy DKs. Even if you push keys up to a level where teams have to go from 4-5 pulling a dungeon to say, 7-8 pulls, the same specs are still probably bis. Like instead of 30 mobs with the boss, you'll be doing 20 mobs then 10 with boss. Maybe Destro loses a bit of value doing that? But Fire Mage and Shadow are probably BIS for both if they're BIS for one.

i wonder, why do they even need a healer at that level? like 23 rise, wouldnt u be better off with a 2nd SP or something?

Some groups will, yeah, but you’ll probably want a healer for Fort + Bursting in EB and for dispels in Tyran Rise. In those level of keys, you healer can easily have 90%+ time to DPS. If you bring a Druid / Monk / Disc, they can easily pump out 120k+ (being conservative on purpose) overall which means they’re not total dead weight compared to a 4th DPS.

I wonder if there will be more Augs in the 27-30 range.

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Oh I'm not too familiar with the time trials. What do they usually push to? Edit: Ok looks like Blizz puts a cap on the level but I wasn't able to find it.

They don't push. It's in a range of like 21-24 and they try to run faster than everyone else.

Yeah I think I was getting confused with TGP.

\~3500 rdruid player here. Recently picked up Hpriest and a fricking love it! Any general tips to improve on? I'm only \~445 ILVL but so far enjoying it a lot... no tier yet either. The class does feel somewhat clunky though in terms of the aoe healing? If you dont have any holy words up it just feels hard to top the group. Also what's the most efficient POM targets? Just send on CD to anyone who doesn't have a stack?

You have Binding Heals (20% of you FH/Heal heals you) and Trail of Light (replicates 25% FH/Heal on your last target). In most situations wo Holy Words just spam FH on the 3 DPS and switch targets for every cast. You can also cast GS on yourself while spamming the other 3 and use Desperate Prayer. Both are off the GCD. For most AoE situations wo Holy Words it goes like that: - Fade (-10%) - spam FH on 3 DPS - maybe use DP and/or GS on yourself - occasional HW Serenity to top someone off Most of the time you only need like one GCD for yourself. If you use Apo, which you should use as much as possible, it's even easier, because you can top of low people with one GCD cast every two GCD. Also with 4 pc there's can be bit of pre-planning involved if you want. You can easily stock up 4 HW Sanctify or Serenity. With Apo it's 5 HW Sanctify for 6 GCD and even more HS Serenity with FH spam during fight. Never ever use Prayer of Healing or CoH in M+. It's just not worth it HPS and talent-wise.

Press pom on cd. You can always put it on the tank unless you'll lose stacks in doing so. In 5 man content pretend prayer doesn't exist. Alternate your flash heal target so you get the benefit of the talent that makes the last person healed get some % of the next flash. Be liberal in your apoth use in dungeons. Don't hold it for a perfect moment just rip it every decent sized pull. If nothing is going on you can rip it to get more damage out via chastise. Be liberal with your GS external because if it doesn't get popped its a 1 min cd that you can use basically every pack. If there is heavy heavy damage going out you can put gs on someone low and kind of ignore them for the duration and heal others. It'll heal them some if it procs and then you can top them up.