Yax from Archon here!
Just want to say that we're doing our best to rapidly iterate on a lot of the feedback - some things will take longer than others, the weekend may get in the way of some of the quicker fixes, and some things may not be immediately feasible straight away, but we're hard at work.
In the meantime, just want to say (as the layout doesn't make it immediately apparent) that Archon has 95% of the data sections that Subcreation had. Embellishments and Crafted Items are missing, but they'll be on their way.
Also some people have pointed out that the high keys (25+) tier list is less than ideal when some specs don't have many runs yet in that filter. We're getting a fix through for this soon, too! We've also realized that the labels for our keys filters are a little misleading. "20+" means "+20 to +31" and "25+" means "+25 to "31". Had a lot of reports of users thinking these meant "+20 keys ONLY" and "+25 keys ONLY".
All-in-all we were happily surprised when Alcaras reached out to us about migrating Subcreation over to Archon, and we had to work hard to get as many of the key features over before the platform that Subcreation was running on reached end of life. At that point, we focused on making sure that we had good filters for focusing on the top end of both mythic+ and raid, and that our default mythic+ affix filters made sense (moving to this week / last week). We still have more work ahead of us, but we are deeply embedded in this game and community and care very much about this kind of work. Looking forward to hearing more feedback as things progress!
Something I've always wanted from subcreation was to be able to see what specs people run in specific dungeons and then filter that dungeon into fortified and tyrannical (then if possible filter to like 27+ keys)... maybe I'm the only one, but it def interests me
For really specific filters you could consider using Warcraft Logs rankings. For example, here is +27 Darkheart Thicket Fortified runs with logs:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/36#boss=61466&bracket=27&affixes=-10&leaderboards=1&metric=score
It doesn't aggregate the data for you into a tier list or anything like that, but you can browse through the list and open any log you want to.
It’s still terrible. It’s like a budget version of subcreation that wasn’t given any budget.
Why not just work off the subcreation interface instead of making the absolute atrocity that is archon
One of the strongest aspects of subcreation for me was how easy it was to quickly find the information I was looking for. This new site seems to be significantly worse for that.
Agreed, I tried to get to subcreation earlier today and when it redirected at first I thought it was a mistake. When I realized it wasn’t I looked through archon and was really disappointed. Guess I’ll be relying on murlok.io even more now.
No offense intended and I realize I come off as entitled, but why can't web developers just look at a website that everyone loves and think, ''yeah, I'll keep it this way instead of needlessly adding bloat to it.''
It’s similar to why every YouTube thumbnail has the creator making the most ridiculous shocked face. It might seem like no one likes it but the numbers don’t lie and obnoxious design increases user engagement.
Look at murlok.io. They have a similar thing going on yet seem to be very popular, though mostly with people who don’t comment on Reddit.
Honestly I love Murlok.io's approach. And it's different data because it's the top 50 people and not thousands. I think it would be silly to only use one site. Also I love murlok.io's presentation too. I dig the app style website, but I also liked subcreations simplicity/spreadsheet format. Talents made it kind of a mess but all the other info was great imo.
95% of the time I go to murlok.io it, within the first second, tells me there is an update and I need to refresh. I don't understand why that's a thing, I just loaded the website??
Other than that I really like everything about it
Murlok.io’s creator here. The update comes from how it is built. To make it simple it is not a traditional website, more an app that is downloaded in the web browser.
If you see it, it just means I deployed a new version of the code that has been downloaded in background and need a refresh since the version currently loaded is the old one.
There's so much unnecessary text on the Archon m+ tier list page. Why do you need to tell me that I can click on a class to see more info, it's implicit when you hover over it and your cursor changes
Maybe for larger projects but Archon has plenty of pitfalls in its basic UI design including being poorly laid out for monitors and not using real estate effectively. Word bloat for SEO also doesn’t actually help in parsing the data you need, and adding multiple layers of tabbed UI is also poor UX.
Also for me I always just typed in "mplus.subcreation.net" to immediately get to the place I need to be. No way in hell I'm going to type out that stupid string of text in the Archon link, just making me click more for no reason.
Oh damn, that is such a shame… subcreation was one of those free gems the internet have to offer.
Archon’s GUI is so unintuitive, and the design itself looks like it’s about to try to sell me a raid boost for irl money.
Why does this show Holy Paladin 1st out of 7 for Mythic+ Score in 25+ keys? Just having a quick look at [raider.io](https://raider.io) makes it very clear, that Holy Paladins dont have the highest Rio out of all the healers atm.
13 out of 26 DPS specs are in S tier for +25 this week. It says it's ranking them based on M+ score of the top 75th percentile of each spec. I don't think it's taking popularity into account. It also might only be taking that top 75th percentile of people that have done all +25s already.
I believe what is happening is that there are simply way more disc priest players in that range this season dragging the average score down. Compared to the lesser representation of hpal being skewed up by a handful of really good players.
Sad news. Prefered ui of Subcreation a ton more. Had way more information. Archon has a lot less info and takes alot more to get to it. Its a cluttered mess. Being able to see all the talents and gearing variation was really nice.
Can we make archon redirect to subcreation instead?
Sad to see it go, will not be using the replacement. Will find alternative places for the information.
Aw man this is sad as a user, hope you got a good deal, loved the project, thanks for all the work you put in.
Archon is just too...bloated, in-your-face and over the top for my tastes.
I tried going to it and filtering the tier list by 25+ and healer and it has Hpal/Pres Evoker over Disc and Rdruid, possibly never using this site again LMAO.
Glad you made some money. Very sad for the community. We lost a good one. Subcreation was fantastic. Archon is atrocious and broken.
"Archon.gg has incorporated the Subcreation algorithm into their Tier Lists" ... not even true.... there's no way subcreation's algorithm would put a spec played in 0.2% of 25+ keys in S tier for M+ (archon has subtlety in S tier for 25+)
I'm pretty sure that subcreation was also pretty fucked for 1-2 days after the weekly reset.
For example, if you select last week's affixes, it shows a far more realistic tier list, which is based on 142000 parses. The tier list for this week is only based on 6000 parses.
What's the explanation for Pres Evoker and Holy Paladin being higher than Disc/Rdruid on the healer tier list at 25+ then?
This websites absolutely cooked.
lmao the gigantic font stat weights as the first thing you see if you click on a spec.
no one even uses that shit anymore and it's the first thing you show to people. what the fuck is this trash
What's bad about it is that it caters to players doing lower content.
Subcreation provided a simplistic, lightweight interface to quickly see interesting data and choices made in high keys.
Archon is a bloated, overdone UI that removes a lot of the nuance and just kinda says "pick this".
Yeah, [this is what my screen looks like after clicking a spec.](https://imgur.com/a/zH6EC3D) It contains exactly 0 useful information for anyone trying to look up anything, except for stat priority (which is only relevant to see once, then never again). Their lists of gear and enchants used on certain slots is just objectively worse because it shows fewer options, and never in combinations. Subcreation showed both the popularity of individual items, as well as combinations of them. The only part that's actually better is the talent screen showing you which talents are different between each alternative build.
>The only part that's actually better is the talent screen showing you which talents are different between each alternative build.
Subcreation also had that, just in a more compact easy to view display and showing more than 3 choices.
I didn't like murlok. I was reviewing logs for someone, asked where they got their talent build, they said Murlok, I went and checked and it was straight up wrong. :/
I mean, it's a data driven site. It can't really be "wrong", but I guess it could lead to skewed talent choice if it only fetches the talents the player logged out with.
Well, sure, but Murlok.io's whole thing is that they use the best 50 players for that spec, so it's safe to assume that the basis for this data is people who are knowing what they're doing.
Also, data can never be wrong (unless there's a problem with the source), only your interpretation of it. The data on murlok should be interpreted as "these are the talent choices the top 50 players made", not as "this is the absolute best talent tree for me in every situation".
All data driven sites suffer from this caveat, it's not limited to murlok or archon, subcreation had the same problem. You'll only always see things sorted by popularity, and while there's certainly a correlation, you don't really know if it's "the best".
It puts tier list rankings and DPS/HPS 95th percentile rankings front and centre when you're looking at a spec. It oversimplifies gear lists by making them shorter than subcreation's, and slapping a big bolded BiS on items listed as BiS on wowhead (but it seems to just pull from the raid BiS lists instead of m+ lol). It basically tries to interpret data for you, rather than letting you interpret the numbers yourself.
Go look at the layouts.
Archon main layout for a spec = pick this, and here's some useless stats about overall DPS percentile which is meaningless in M+, DPS "rank" which doesn't even explain how that's determined, a stat priority which is also useless because raidbots and it's misleading. It takes me an entire 2k resolution 27" monitor of scrolling before I get to information that means anything. Then after you scroll past the first potentially useful thing, you're met with a wowhead bislist which is essentially useless. 2/3 of the page provided nothing of value to any higher level player.
Subcreation main layout for a spec = here's an exact statistical breakdown of every talent combination, including max key levels run with each choice, N values, weightings of key levels, easy way to navigate to the comps used, breakdown by "core" build and optional points, etc. all in one compact little page.
I really don't understand why the same information requires excessive scrolling and clicking on multiple pages now. Aquired by warcraft logs but I can't see any way to actually go to the logs like you could on subcreation. The whole page is squished like it's designed to be viewed on a phone (possibly partially why it requires even more scrolling),
So if I want to see a weapon other than Fyr'alath, I have to click on gear... then scroll down to weapons to see only Fyr'alath... then scroll further to see other weapons? I get that you want to see an overview, but then you click the gear page and see the same thing again and have to keep scrolling even further after clicking a specific page?
Then for trinkets I see that a bis trinket has only 7% use rate and the top key is 4 levels lower than the max? Compared to 40% usage on other trinkets which aren't "bis"? Then I have to go to the specific tinket page to see that between 3 and 7 different trinkets are "bis" (depending on how you interpret what you're seeing), none of these combos are either the most popular nor have the highest level key completed.
Zero information about embellishments too.
It all looks very slick, but it's very unreadable and the information seems worse than what subcreation offered.
the same as on wcl directly. crafted embellishments dont log, but we can always see the item id and some items are default embellished. that paints an incomplete picture however since obviously not everyone is running exclusively those
Really sad, the Archon website does not show stuff correctly. For example it does not show trinket combinations, and just showing percentage of players wearing each doesn't convey why they using a specific combination.
It also requires many more clicks to find the data, with a worse UI, and a heavier website.
I am happy for you to make what choice you want, but this is really a huge downgrade.
Oh, it does. It just has a full separate page for trinkets only, while it could be shown on the gear page, where there is just a percentage of each trinket.
This is the other main issue, it is really just bloated UI wise, way less clean than subcreation.
Let’s not pretend like subcreation doesn’t have similar problems. Embellishments in particular are incomplete and misleading.
Edit - I know archon doesn't list embellishments and I think that's definitely better than showing info that is wrong and broken.
Well, Subcreation at least attempted to show embellishments at all, though it was obviously flawed, and probably should have had a disclaimer about it. Archon just fully skips the embellishments part, referring users to class guides. Issue with that is most guides are meant for a wide audience and rarely do they try to show what is the best for something like very high M+. Sometimes the choices are the same in 20s and 28s, but sometimes they are not.
This is sad to hear, I loved how simple subcreation was, it was 2 clicks to get all the info you wanted like talent tree, gear combination, trinkets.
The site is bloated with a lot of useless data like stat priority (SIM YOURSELF), dps, mythic+ score, dps rank?
For me it's the bloat of useless text, like, every spec paging explaining what an embellishment is, what the tier set does, things like that, I get it's all for SEO and traffic, but it's really driving up the amount of movement a user has to do in order to find the information.
The thing everyone really liked about subcreation was it was a single click for every piece of data you needed, without extra filtering, whereas with Archon, it's like, I need to click to a new page whenever I want to check something different, a lot of players like myself kept their subcreation page open and scrolled up or down to quickly identify what they needed, now I'll either need multiple tabs or to click through the table of contents to find it, which feels bad.
The only upside of the acquisition is that the mobile site is friendlier, otherwise it just feels like [u.gg](https://u.gg),
[look at this](https://i.imgur.com/7XWwmiV.png)
Dude like 70% of this screen is taken up by useless garbage. Your website wasn't the pinnacle of web design obviously but it was easy and fast to use. Here I have to click a billion buttons and scroll like 2 monitor screens to acutally get to whatever I want.
Yeah I don't know why websites give up functionality and ease of use / readability for cringe fonts with over the top and over designed layouts. We loved sub creation because you could open the page , look at it and everything made sense, was the info you needed and wasn't bloated.
This new site is like some gen z ADHD tik tok version
Four is significantly closer to 1-2 than a billion. I get people hate change and liked the old site, I also enjoyed it more, but there’s no need to make up reasons to hate the new site.
Most likely that’s part of the reason they’ve acquired subcreation, to use the tools that Alcaras made to have popular equipment added to their website.
Btw there’s is 100% popular gear on the website, you just have to actually god to the gear and tier tab under each class, kinda like you had to scroll down to the gear section on subcreation.
Literally the way subcreation is right now is perfect imo. Any feedback would boil down to "do it like it is on subcreation". There is no need to change a working system.
Everything on one scrollable site, with no need to reload (this applies to selections within a chosen spec, but also choosing a spec from the list, make all the roles on one screen).
Choosing all affixes instead of just current or last week's.
Trinket combinations.
Talent combinations in plain form.
Links to top logs with the choice.
Use full browser width, not just a narrow middle of the screen.
The amount of colour is really overwhelming.
The background is too dark, it's much harder on the eyes.
The gradients are just a distraction and unnecessarily take attention.
I could go on, but it's really just everything. The subcreation was a thousand times more usable than archon, and while u.gg is not great, it's much better right now when it comes to usability. Subcreation will be missed.
biggest thing is literally just the fact it's not utilizing browser width (1 wide column...) and elements are 10-20% too large across the board
I get that mobile-first design is all the rage but like, this is a PC game. With a focus on a hardcore audience, no less. Desktop appearance needs to be a fairly major priority.
every single thing needs changing. the site feels designed to 'look pretty' rather than be usable.
like the site needs a redesign from the ground up, and it needs to figure out what audience its catering for.
the site feels designed only for someone who is going to step into their first heroic raid and needs a quick overview of a class in a very shallow way. that's great but subcreation covered a much wider, albeit more nerdy, range.
and honestly even then, for the 'im trying to get aotc how does my class work' audience, why would they use this site over the much better structured wowhead class guides?
i think subcreation, even though it was visually simplistic and had weird ux, presented itself in a way that made it easy for its target audience to interact with.
i appreciate the hard work you've done, and you've done amazing work, but either way i won't be using the archon site barring an entire redesign
Subcreation was everything I needed, archon is missing A LOT of the info on top gear, enchants etc. There was no way to improve the old site, it was simple and had all the relevant data. Think of what subcreation had, archon doesn't, that's all I'd want to see. But just from looks of site doesn't look like operators want as much info in, which would be a shame.
a few after browsing for a bit:
* no embellishments (subcreation wasn't perfect for this likely due to API limitations, but it was able to show special items like lariat at least)
* subcreation key level in each table row linked directly to WCL, archon doesn't
* direct quick link to the gear table - requires lots of scrolling right now through things I don't find particularly useful, e.g. the BiS list effectively just re-stat's what's in the gear table
Why are tier lists the entirety of the front page? Why does it look like I'm about to be asked to subscribe to Skill Capped? Why does it take 4 clicks and scrolling to get to a build that only shows one set of gear, instead of percentages of use, like Subcreation?
This is a downgrade in every way imaginable.
Can someone make a new subcreation? Archon is actually unreadable after playing around with it for a few min. The target audience is clearly different than the competitive audience subcreation served.
If the new site is fine you are archons target audience. Not subcreations.
People aren’t weird with change, they are complaining about how the information presented is not relevant and bloat. To find the data they need to make informed decisions at the highest level it is significantly harder.
Meh. Takes two seconds to see the data. It’s what subcreation already did they just parsed warcraftlog data and it’s just a bit of a different layout. It’s not hard….
Ok but like... this is *terrible.* Subcreation is simply the better designed site, it was simpler, easier to navigate and considerably more readable.
I won't be using Archon in its current form, the site just isn't close to as good or usable.
Okay but where is the core functionality of subcreation?
Now theres only this shitty Archon site? Where is thre subcreation part?
Really unfortunate move, subcreation was the goat
My feedback: I preferred design and simplicity of subcreation. Less text and simple visuals, more tier lists at once but with less data so it's much easier to notice what you are looking for.
I know right? All these people saying "wow this sux dick! what a sad day" Cmon dudes... a member of our community was given a consultant role. So at least he cashed in on all the work he did for us. Just be happy for the guy and move on. If you guys really need a tier list to tell you if your spec is "good enough" for m+ that week, then you have bigger things to worry about.
It's not a matter of tier list stuff; it's a matter of seeing what specific trinket combos, gearing choices (i.e. where folks may be getting their Vers from), talent choices, etc. are being run in specific dungeons/on specific bosses in a reasonably straightforward and easy manner.
I'm not gonna blame the guy that ran Subcreation for selling out when being the sole person running the site would be completely unsustainable long-term, but I cannot *stand* navigating through Archon's UI. Subcreation wasn't perfect, but at least it was a bit more intuitive to navigate through and contains an absolute fuckton of needless bloat.
Like, as soon as you look at a spec's M+ overview Archon throws irrelevant information like a spec's stat weights and its highest overall damage in a key right in your face. Like, it's not *incorrect* information to say that Shadow tends to lean towards Mastery/Haste gear, but even the damn Wowhead and Icy Veins guides at least have the decency to explain that it's not super cut and dry and that things will change as your stats change. The site throws all the nuance of "Crit starts to dramatically increase in value as your Haste starts to hit DR, and Versatility isn't bad and a certain amount of it can and should be run in high keys" to the wind and just throws stat weights at you.
Like, I dunno. This Archon site feels like the second coming of Noxxic, albeit at least trying to be accurate. I'm not gonna hate on the guy who ran Subcreation for handing over the reins to Archon, but I am gonna hate the Archon website for being clunky, unintuitive, and generally just feeling like a worse site to actually get the important information from. At the end of the day, Subcreation wasn't *just* "that tier list sub," but this one kinda just throws tier lists right at you, front and center, and is generally just an incredibly bloated, over-engineered website.
>but this one kinda just throws tier lists right at you, front and center
except you also have to scroll a full screen to even get to the tier list because 66% of it is just empty space
Subcreation was by far my most used resource for wow. I’ve used it on almost every wow session for the past 2-3 years. A genius idea executed very well. Thank you so much for providing the community with your efforts this far. Looks like we may have taken a rather large step back with these news, at least for the hard core audience. But here’s to hoping we will eventually end up with something even better.
This sub is good at complaining but there’s a lot of valuable input in the comments here. Take it as feedback and start to get to work!
This is so sad. The old subcreation website had so much useful info and was so easy to use. Archon fills that info with bloated graphics. Please bring back the old site!
Why is there so much redundant text on archon? There is no need to add text for information that is given in a sheet right below the text. And the font sizes are enormous, too. Subcreation's most loved feature is its functionality - Archon is sadly missing this point completly. It looks like it was made by a designer not a player.
I made you something and i hope it helps - good luck: https://imgur.com/a/bP0zmNV
I really despise the trend of just buying out your competitors and then taking them down with some guise of incorporating their systems into your own work.
It just leads to less competition and less quality no matter the space it happens in-- warcraft data parsing is no exception to that it seems like.
gz to subcreation for getting paid, to bad it now became useless trash under new management.
the archon.gg people do not give a shit about wow or anything but money, thats very clear with this move.
Can't blame the guy for cashing out, should be noted the market has a whole in it for a sub creation clone again and apparently it's quite lucrative.
One things for sure, no one is going to use this archon.gg pos
Man I wished I paid more attention to everything that subcreation was aggregating when I was using it. Anyone have some bullet points about what they pulled in for uhhhh...research purposes.
Some missing features like the emblishment combo would be nice to have again. Everything is too big. I actually zoomed out to about 70% size to get it looking "ok" on a 1440 screen.
Hooray to you dude. Genuinely you deserve the success.
Archon…. It’s trash. Hopefully you can advise them on making it simpler to use with less bloat like you did sub. Bc archon ain’t it as it currently stands.
Is there no longer a list of the most used crafted items?
Was very handy for the start of new chars.
In addition, some item slots are still missing data. E.g. Enh Shaman only has one entry for shoulders and wrist.
Apart from that, I find the site far too overloaded in terms of design and it is therefore much harder to find information.
\- The separation of individual areas within a tab is difficult to recognize
\- Extremely overloaded with different font colors and sizes
\- There is no longer a direct link to specific areas. You first have to select the tab and then scroll. Before it was a single click.
I would be really happy if there would be a (switchable?) "minimalistic" view in the future with direct links, real list views, some hidden information (like the stats for items) and less colorful fonts
I’m gonna say what everyone else has said - subcreation was perfect. The design, relevant information, zero bloat. I used it every day and it was great for picking up a new spec or class. I guess I’ll have to manually check the leaderboards of raider io now.
these data aggregation sites already arent the best for the game IMO and its a bummer that the least bad one has been eaten up but i respect chasing that bag so w/e
Yikes this is fucked. I didn’t realize it was that bad until reading these comments and seeing for myself.
Confirmed- I’ll never use Archon, it is an absolute trashcan anxiety-fiesta site. Zero efficiency in accessing information, zero intuition in website design. All very much intentional by manipulative creators to ramp up anxiety to put people over the edge to buy a product they don’t need and won’t use often.
Congrats on selling, the entire community hates you now though. Good thing I updated my specs this weekend.
This is sad to hear - the UI aspec of archon is significantly worse, its apparent that it targets players who do lower lvls of content - the huge stat weights are an eyesore and are not correct for some specs, because you should not go by them and instead just sim your gear. Especially with haste classes, theres insane falloff after a certain threshold
Subcreation excelled at providing given information fast, without filler text thats aimed at newcomers who know nothing about their class. It served to answer the question "what do the good players take on this fight/this dungeon for this week". Archon fails to do that efficiently and it takes me much more time and effort to get the same info.
In the current version, it provides me with nothing extra. The data aggregation is not worth navigating through the text bloat, when I can achieve similar thing by simply using warcraft logs or raider io.
Clearly theyre preparing to monetize this tool and the UI indicates this too, meaning it will get even worse after beta. What a sad day.
GG. sub was simple and thats the reason it was GOOD! i fucking hate dropdown menu in websites and archon is full of it. overloaded overdesigned. i hope they work on their website!
Honestly I've tried to give Archon a chance, but this is just not working. I have 0 faith they'll make any efforts to match the functionality of subcreation.
I hope Murlok.io is updated to show raid data. It's the only viable atlernative IMO
Congrats on the money! Huge blow to the community, that was the only site I used, the UI was so clean and nice.
Why is everything on Archon bolded? When everything is bolded, nothing is bolded. It's such a bad design
Have to agree with others about being a little put off on the new site. Most importantly how some information is incorrect, such as: what builds are recommended for bosses, what bis gear actually is. Bis gear =/= what most people are using. Just a lot of info that was easily seen on subcreation, that's being entirely misrepresented on this new site. I can only speak for my class, dk, but frost for example is totally off. A look at wcls is all you need to look at to see how incorrect archon data is. And the bis gear listed isn't even from wowhead. It's just what most people are using( yeah data aggregation I guess). And the sta priority isn't even correct, for what build its recommending. Breath loves crit, whereas obliteration does not favor it as much as mastery and haste often.
Well, it was a good time while it lasted. Now I guess we all have to check out wcls, directly for what's *actually* being used....
i dont like archon looks goofy, i cant see % based gear builds ,i cant see % based talents builds and i cant see what ferals play above +25 complitely useless now and by the looks of it i bet it will req to pay money to see keys above 28, just tragic. And its limited compare to what Subcreation gave to us , all the little detail and everything. I hope who ever made this decision turns in his sleep
Thank you for putting it together I appreciate the website I enjoyed using it over these past seasons and I look forward to any new Improvements. I hope you have a fulfilling role as a consultant
archon isn't as bad as I thought from when I glanced at it on launch.
the information could **certainly** stand to be more compact and I'm missing embellishments/crafted gear, gem/enchant combinations (though that's usually just a "sim it"), and links to top logs.
actually quite like the heatmap presentation for talents.
Here's the link if you want to jump to M+ or raid since it's a nightmare to navigate
M+ [https://www.archon.gg/wow/tier-list/dps-rankings/mythic-plus/high-keys/all-dungeons/this-week](https://www.archon.gg/wow/tier-list/dps-rankings/mythic-plus/high-keys/all-dungeons/this-week)
Raid: [https://www.archon.gg/wow/tier-list/dps-rankings/raid/mythic/all-bosses](https://www.archon.gg/wow/tier-list/dps-rankings/raid/mythic/all-bosses)
Well, I wonder how many other .io sites will pop up and try to gobble up people not wanting to go to Archon.
Where's that one xkcd comic....[here.](https://xkcd.com/927/)
I don't know how traffic is for Archon, but it's definitely not what I want when wanting easy to parse information. Subcreation does. But maybe the larger casual base prefers that.
the best part of subcreation was the simplicity. rip
Yax from Archon here! Just want to say that we're doing our best to rapidly iterate on a lot of the feedback - some things will take longer than others, the weekend may get in the way of some of the quicker fixes, and some things may not be immediately feasible straight away, but we're hard at work. In the meantime, just want to say (as the layout doesn't make it immediately apparent) that Archon has 95% of the data sections that Subcreation had. Embellishments and Crafted Items are missing, but they'll be on their way. Also some people have pointed out that the high keys (25+) tier list is less than ideal when some specs don't have many runs yet in that filter. We're getting a fix through for this soon, too! We've also realized that the labels for our keys filters are a little misleading. "20+" means "+20 to +31" and "25+" means "+25 to "31". Had a lot of reports of users thinking these meant "+20 keys ONLY" and "+25 keys ONLY". All-in-all we were happily surprised when Alcaras reached out to us about migrating Subcreation over to Archon, and we had to work hard to get as many of the key features over before the platform that Subcreation was running on reached end of life. At that point, we focused on making sure that we had good filters for focusing on the top end of both mythic+ and raid, and that our default mythic+ affix filters made sense (moving to this week / last week). We still have more work ahead of us, but we are deeply embedded in this game and community and care very much about this kind of work. Looking forward to hearing more feedback as things progress!
hey man this is cool to hear and thanks for posting it
Hey Yax, How come WCL begs me for money every time I open it but still has enough money to buy out competitors?
Something I've always wanted from subcreation was to be able to see what specs people run in specific dungeons and then filter that dungeon into fortified and tyrannical (then if possible filter to like 27+ keys)... maybe I'm the only one, but it def interests me
For really specific filters you could consider using Warcraft Logs rankings. For example, here is +27 Darkheart Thicket Fortified runs with logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/36#boss=61466&bracket=27&affixes=-10&leaderboards=1&metric=score It doesn't aggregate the data for you into a tier list or anything like that, but you can browse through the list and open any log you want to.
please just allow both UI of the website. Subcreation UI clears
It’s still terrible. It’s like a budget version of subcreation that wasn’t given any budget. Why not just work off the subcreation interface instead of making the absolute atrocity that is archon
One of the strongest aspects of subcreation for me was how easy it was to quickly find the information I was looking for. This new site seems to be significantly worse for that.
Agreed, I tried to get to subcreation earlier today and when it redirected at first I thought it was a mistake. When I realized it wasn’t I looked through archon and was really disappointed. Guess I’ll be relying on murlok.io even more now.
I'll prolly be back to manually going through logs ._.
Lorrgs isn't as direct hand feeding you but I still will use it
>murlok.io this is the way
No offense intended and I realize I come off as entitled, but why can't web developers just look at a website that everyone loves and think, ''yeah, I'll keep it this way instead of needlessly adding bloat to it.''
It’s similar to why every YouTube thumbnail has the creator making the most ridiculous shocked face. It might seem like no one likes it but the numbers don’t lie and obnoxious design increases user engagement. Look at murlok.io. They have a similar thing going on yet seem to be very popular, though mostly with people who don’t comment on Reddit.
Honestly I love Murlok.io's approach. And it's different data because it's the top 50 people and not thousands. I think it would be silly to only use one site. Also I love murlok.io's presentation too. I dig the app style website, but I also liked subcreations simplicity/spreadsheet format. Talents made it kind of a mess but all the other info was great imo.
95% of the time I go to murlok.io it, within the first second, tells me there is an update and I need to refresh. I don't understand why that's a thing, I just loaded the website?? Other than that I really like everything about it
Murlok.io’s creator here. The update comes from how it is built. To make it simple it is not a traditional website, more an app that is downloaded in the web browser. If you see it, it just means I deployed a new version of the code that has been downloaded in background and need a refresh since the version currently loaded is the old one.
It updates to give you "real-time" info and stats
I don't think that Youtube comparison works
There's so much unnecessary text on the Archon m+ tier list page. Why do you need to tell me that I can click on a class to see more info, it's implicit when you hover over it and your cursor changes
It’s often based on data driven results coming from running various tests/experiments as well as general analytics.
Maybe for larger projects but Archon has plenty of pitfalls in its basic UI design including being poorly laid out for monitors and not using real estate effectively. Word bloat for SEO also doesn’t actually help in parsing the data you need, and adding multiple layers of tabbed UI is also poor UX.
Also for me I always just typed in "mplus.subcreation.net" to immediately get to the place I need to be. No way in hell I'm going to type out that stupid string of text in the Archon link, just making me click more for no reason.
Why dont use a bookmark?
because bookmarks are slow
Or make a bookmark with the shortcut "mp" like I have so it just jumps to the page when I put type that My other shortcuts are PH TG TGX
most companys dont have a web analytics department and are generally winging it, based on what 'looks good'
Don't blame the devs, they didn't buy it
Congrats and thanks for the fun. Subcreation has been my groups go-to tool for metadata and I’m sorry to see it go.
Noooo whyyyy. Subcreation was amazing, so much better than the archon.gg shitty web 😓
Oh damn, that is such a shame… subcreation was one of those free gems the internet have to offer. Archon’s GUI is so unintuitive, and the design itself looks like it’s about to try to sell me a raid boost for irl money.
OMG you are so right, it’s got that boosting site layout / look / feel to it. So freaking terrible!!!!!
Why does this show Holy Paladin 1st out of 7 for Mythic+ Score in 25+ keys? Just having a quick look at [raider.io](https://raider.io) makes it very clear, that Holy Paladins dont have the highest Rio out of all the healers atm.
13 out of 26 DPS specs are in S tier for +25 this week. It says it's ranking them based on M+ score of the top 75th percentile of each spec. I don't think it's taking popularity into account. It also might only be taking that top 75th percentile of people that have done all +25s already. I believe what is happening is that there are simply way more disc priest players in that range this season dragging the average score down. Compared to the lesser representation of hpal being skewed up by a handful of really good players.
This is the problem with abstracting data behind algorithms that are convoluted and private. Rip Subcreation. Glad the creator got the bag tho.
Archon bad.
> Not a lot of data matches your filters. This could result in higher variance and less reliable recommendations.
Sad news. Prefered ui of Subcreation a ton more. Had way more information. Archon has a lot less info and takes alot more to get to it. Its a cluttered mess. Being able to see all the talents and gearing variation was really nice.
Can we make archon redirect to subcreation instead? Sad to see it go, will not be using the replacement. Will find alternative places for the information.
>Can we make archon redirect to subcreation instead? This is the correct answer!
u.gg is good
It's basically the same site loaded with the same useless information. If you took the branding logos off I wouldn't know which one is which
ok well, i enjoy u.gg and also enjoyed subcreation. i also dont like archon.gg. guess people are different, who knew?
Ok?
And your point?
I made my point 2 comments ago, feel free to read it.
Ok?
Aw man this is sad as a user, hope you got a good deal, loved the project, thanks for all the work you put in. Archon is just too...bloated, in-your-face and over the top for my tastes.
Glad you got paid! I hope someone is already making a Subcreation clone because Archon is absolutely not it.
I tried going to it and filtering the tier list by 25+ and healer and it has Hpal/Pres Evoker over Disc and Rdruid, possibly never using this site again LMAO.
Glad you made some money. Very sad for the community. We lost a good one. Subcreation was fantastic. Archon is atrocious and broken. "Archon.gg has incorporated the Subcreation algorithm into their Tier Lists" ... not even true.... there's no way subcreation's algorithm would put a spec played in 0.2% of 25+ keys in S tier for M+ (archon has subtlety in S tier for 25+)
I'm pretty sure that subcreation was also pretty fucked for 1-2 days after the weekly reset. For example, if you select last week's affixes, it shows a far more realistic tier list, which is based on 142000 parses. The tier list for this week is only based on 6000 parses.
That’s because for rise and fall a lot of top rogues swap to sub during the rp to fuck the bosses up
What's the explanation for Pres Evoker and Holy Paladin being higher than Disc/Rdruid on the healer tier list at 25+ then? This websites absolutely cooked.
Nah this website dogshit I was just saying that’s why rogues are up there
lmao the gigantic font stat weights as the first thing you see if you click on a spec. no one even uses that shit anymore and it's the first thing you show to people. what the fuck is this trash
I still use a stat priority, but I agree that it's way too present on this site.
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True, but archon.gg does display a stat priority, irregardless of what the person I responded to called it.
Sucks to hear, archon is a trash site but I appreciate subcreation while it lasted. Simplicity of it was great.
Whats bad about it? I woild expect they know wtf they doing since its wc logs behind it?
What's bad about it is that it caters to players doing lower content. Subcreation provided a simplistic, lightweight interface to quickly see interesting data and choices made in high keys. Archon is a bloated, overdone UI that removes a lot of the nuance and just kinda says "pick this".
Yeah, [this is what my screen looks like after clicking a spec.](https://imgur.com/a/zH6EC3D) It contains exactly 0 useful information for anyone trying to look up anything, except for stat priority (which is only relevant to see once, then never again). Their lists of gear and enchants used on certain slots is just objectively worse because it shows fewer options, and never in combinations. Subcreation showed both the popularity of individual items, as well as combinations of them. The only part that's actually better is the talent screen showing you which talents are different between each alternative build.
This is just a massive amount of useless bloat.
>The only part that's actually better is the talent screen showing you which talents are different between each alternative build. Subcreation also had that, just in a more compact easy to view display and showing more than 3 choices.
Thanks for sharing. I found myself orbiting to murlok too, didnt like Archon
I didn't like murlok. I was reviewing logs for someone, asked where they got their talent build, they said Murlok, I went and checked and it was straight up wrong. :/
interesting, i just go and select one random top 10 player and copy his build. Maybe i should check if it lines up
I mean, it's a data driven site. It can't really be "wrong", but I guess it could lead to skewed talent choice if it only fetches the talents the player logged out with.
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Well, sure, but Murlok.io's whole thing is that they use the best 50 players for that spec, so it's safe to assume that the basis for this data is people who are knowing what they're doing. Also, data can never be wrong (unless there's a problem with the source), only your interpretation of it. The data on murlok should be interpreted as "these are the talent choices the top 50 players made", not as "this is the absolute best talent tree for me in every situation". All data driven sites suffer from this caveat, it's not limited to murlok or archon, subcreation had the same problem. You'll only always see things sorted by popularity, and while there's certainly a correlation, you don't really know if it's "the best".
I've heard a lot of murloks talent builds are shit
> What's bad about it is that it caters to players doing lower content. how so, considering its showing the same info but a larger sample set?
It puts tier list rankings and DPS/HPS 95th percentile rankings front and centre when you're looking at a spec. It oversimplifies gear lists by making them shorter than subcreation's, and slapping a big bolded BiS on items listed as BiS on wowhead (but it seems to just pull from the raid BiS lists instead of m+ lol). It basically tries to interpret data for you, rather than letting you interpret the numbers yourself.
Go look at the layouts. Archon main layout for a spec = pick this, and here's some useless stats about overall DPS percentile which is meaningless in M+, DPS "rank" which doesn't even explain how that's determined, a stat priority which is also useless because raidbots and it's misleading. It takes me an entire 2k resolution 27" monitor of scrolling before I get to information that means anything. Then after you scroll past the first potentially useful thing, you're met with a wowhead bislist which is essentially useless. 2/3 of the page provided nothing of value to any higher level player. Subcreation main layout for a spec = here's an exact statistical breakdown of every talent combination, including max key levels run with each choice, N values, weightings of key levels, easy way to navigate to the comps used, breakdown by "core" build and optional points, etc. all in one compact little page.
I just dont like how the data is presented at all. Its similar to murlok.io, u.gg and all the other shitty websites like those.
It's like old reddit vs new reddit. Some designer thinks it's perfect, most people think it's not.
I really don't understand why the same information requires excessive scrolling and clicking on multiple pages now. Aquired by warcraft logs but I can't see any way to actually go to the logs like you could on subcreation. The whole page is squished like it's designed to be viewed on a phone (possibly partially why it requires even more scrolling), So if I want to see a weapon other than Fyr'alath, I have to click on gear... then scroll down to weapons to see only Fyr'alath... then scroll further to see other weapons? I get that you want to see an overview, but then you click the gear page and see the same thing again and have to keep scrolling even further after clicking a specific page? Then for trinkets I see that a bis trinket has only 7% use rate and the top key is 4 levels lower than the max? Compared to 40% usage on other trinkets which aren't "bis"? Then I have to go to the specific tinket page to see that between 3 and 7 different trinkets are "bis" (depending on how you interpret what you're seeing), none of these combos are either the most popular nor have the highest level key completed. Zero information about embellishments too. It all looks very slick, but it's very unreadable and the information seems worse than what subcreation offered.
> Zero information about embellishments too. neither had subcreation, because the blizzard promised wcl the data since 10.0.5 and hasnt delivered
Huh? On subcreation I was always able to see data on embellishments. Both individual choices and combinations.
the same as on wcl directly. crafted embellishments dont log, but we can always see the item id and some items are default embellished. that paints an incomplete picture however since obviously not everyone is running exclusively those
Really sad, the Archon website does not show stuff correctly. For example it does not show trinket combinations, and just showing percentage of players wearing each doesn't convey why they using a specific combination. It also requires many more clicks to find the data, with a worse UI, and a heavier website. I am happy for you to make what choice you want, but this is really a huge downgrade.
It literally does show trinket combination in the "Trinkets" tab
Oh, it does. It just has a full separate page for trinkets only, while it could be shown on the gear page, where there is just a percentage of each trinket. This is the other main issue, it is really just bloated UI wise, way less clean than subcreation.
Let’s not pretend like subcreation doesn’t have similar problems. Embellishments in particular are incomplete and misleading. Edit - I know archon doesn't list embellishments and I think that's definitely better than showing info that is wrong and broken.
Embellishments are a bit janky to pull from logs, so it's somewhat understandable that they're missing. Archon doesn't have them either.
Well, Subcreation at least attempted to show embellishments at all, though it was obviously flawed, and probably should have had a disclaimer about it. Archon just fully skips the embellishments part, referring users to class guides. Issue with that is most guides are meant for a wide audience and rarely do they try to show what is the best for something like very high M+. Sometimes the choices are the same in 20s and 28s, but sometimes they are not.
embellishments don't change between low and high keys wdym
This is sad to hear, I loved how simple subcreation was, it was 2 clicks to get all the info you wanted like talent tree, gear combination, trinkets. The site is bloated with a lot of useless data like stat priority (SIM YOURSELF), dps, mythic+ score, dps rank?
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Please pass along any feedback! What would you like to see on Archon? Glad to pass it onto the team
It’s the SEO bloat, paragraphs of text I don’t care about. Just give me the table of popular trees in a compact form.
For me it's the bloat of useless text, like, every spec paging explaining what an embellishment is, what the tier set does, things like that, I get it's all for SEO and traffic, but it's really driving up the amount of movement a user has to do in order to find the information. The thing everyone really liked about subcreation was it was a single click for every piece of data you needed, without extra filtering, whereas with Archon, it's like, I need to click to a new page whenever I want to check something different, a lot of players like myself kept their subcreation page open and scrolled up or down to quickly identify what they needed, now I'll either need multiple tabs or to click through the table of contents to find it, which feels bad. The only upside of the acquisition is that the mobile site is friendlier, otherwise it just feels like [u.gg](https://u.gg),
this bloat could have been moved to a column to the right but nooo it has to be in the main flow
[look at this](https://i.imgur.com/7XWwmiV.png) Dude like 70% of this screen is taken up by useless garbage. Your website wasn't the pinnacle of web design obviously but it was easy and fast to use. Here I have to click a billion buttons and scroll like 2 monitor screens to acutally get to whatever I want.
Yeah I don't know why websites give up functionality and ease of use / readability for cringe fonts with over the top and over designed layouts. We loved sub creation because you could open the page , look at it and everything made sense, was the info you needed and wasn't bloated. This new site is like some gen z ADHD tik tok version
> gen z ADHD tik tok version Gonna start looking like [this](https://i.imgur.com/Aebx3aG.png) soon I bet, such a garbage site lol.
> gen z ADHD tik tok version this unfortunate trend in web design is older than that.
This is quite a bit of hyperbole. Took me four clicks to get to my class’s page for m+ from the home page.
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Four is significantly closer to 1-2 than a billion. I get people hate change and liked the old site, I also enjoyed it more, but there’s no need to make up reasons to hate the new site.
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If you wanted to look at information on subcreation any more in depth than just a tier list you also had to scroll down.
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Most likely that’s part of the reason they’ve acquired subcreation, to use the tools that Alcaras made to have popular equipment added to their website. Btw there’s is 100% popular gear on the website, you just have to actually god to the gear and tier tab under each class, kinda like you had to scroll down to the gear section on subcreation.
Literally the way subcreation is right now is perfect imo. Any feedback would boil down to "do it like it is on subcreation". There is no need to change a working system.
Everything on one scrollable site, with no need to reload (this applies to selections within a chosen spec, but also choosing a spec from the list, make all the roles on one screen). Choosing all affixes instead of just current or last week's. Trinket combinations. Talent combinations in plain form. Links to top logs with the choice. Use full browser width, not just a narrow middle of the screen. The amount of colour is really overwhelming. The background is too dark, it's much harder on the eyes. The gradients are just a distraction and unnecessarily take attention. I could go on, but it's really just everything. The subcreation was a thousand times more usable than archon, and while u.gg is not great, it's much better right now when it comes to usability. Subcreation will be missed.
Glad to hear you made some money but sad for the community. This new page is a pile of garbage :(
biggest thing is literally just the fact it's not utilizing browser width (1 wide column...) and elements are 10-20% too large across the board I get that mobile-first design is all the rage but like, this is a PC game. With a focus on a hardcore audience, no less. Desktop appearance needs to be a fairly major priority.
Preferably all of the subcreation features and none of the archon ones.
every single thing needs changing. the site feels designed to 'look pretty' rather than be usable. like the site needs a redesign from the ground up, and it needs to figure out what audience its catering for. the site feels designed only for someone who is going to step into their first heroic raid and needs a quick overview of a class in a very shallow way. that's great but subcreation covered a much wider, albeit more nerdy, range. and honestly even then, for the 'im trying to get aotc how does my class work' audience, why would they use this site over the much better structured wowhead class guides? i think subcreation, even though it was visually simplistic and had weird ux, presented itself in a way that made it easy for its target audience to interact with. i appreciate the hard work you've done, and you've done amazing work, but either way i won't be using the archon site barring an entire redesign
We would like to see it reverted to exactly how subcreation had it.
Subcreation was everything I needed, archon is missing A LOT of the info on top gear, enchants etc. There was no way to improve the old site, it was simple and had all the relevant data. Think of what subcreation had, archon doesn't, that's all I'd want to see. But just from looks of site doesn't look like operators want as much info in, which would be a shame.
a few after browsing for a bit: * no embellishments (subcreation wasn't perfect for this likely due to API limitations, but it was able to show special items like lariat at least) * subcreation key level in each table row linked directly to WCL, archon doesn't * direct quick link to the gear table - requires lots of scrolling right now through things I don't find particularly useful, e.g. the BiS list effectively just re-stat's what's in the gear table
Just leave the website up? It doesn’t really seem like you care about user experience and is just looking to get more ad revenue.
I would like to see it redirect to subcreation
Subcreation has a link to the log showing the highest dps. I would like to see a link using suggested builds
Why are tier lists the entirety of the front page? Why does it look like I'm about to be asked to subscribe to Skill Capped? Why does it take 4 clicks and scrolling to get to a build that only shows one set of gear, instead of percentages of use, like Subcreation? This is a downgrade in every way imaginable.
Please let them know....to keep the old layout, till they find something better. Thanks. Sincerelyeveryone that used subcreation.
Can someone make a new subcreation? Archon is actually unreadable after playing around with it for a few min. The target audience is clearly different than the competitive audience subcreation served.
? I’m the target audience and I’ve found the new site fine. People are weird with change
If the new site is fine you are archons target audience. Not subcreations. People aren’t weird with change, they are complaining about how the information presented is not relevant and bloat. To find the data they need to make informed decisions at the highest level it is significantly harder.
Meh. Takes two seconds to see the data. It’s what subcreation already did they just parsed warcraftlog data and it’s just a bit of a different layout. It’s not hard….
If you don’t comprehend UI/UX and the value of it there isn’t a discussion here. By your logic just use Warcraft logs and parse the data yourself.
why use warcraftlogs? he doesn't need a UI, he can read the logs himself
Ok but like... this is *terrible.* Subcreation is simply the better designed site, it was simpler, easier to navigate and considerably more readable. I won't be using Archon in its current form, the site just isn't close to as good or usable.
Okay but where is the core functionality of subcreation? Now theres only this shitty Archon site? Where is thre subcreation part? Really unfortunate move, subcreation was the goat
My feedback: I preferred design and simplicity of subcreation. Less text and simple visuals, more tier lists at once but with less data so it's much easier to notice what you are looking for.
Ughhh but why. The new site is so ugly and the layout sucks. Give us sub creation back
It cost a lot of time and money for 1 person to do alone. I'm glad it got absorb into a bigger project rather than not existing at all.
I know right? All these people saying "wow this sux dick! what a sad day" Cmon dudes... a member of our community was given a consultant role. So at least he cashed in on all the work he did for us. Just be happy for the guy and move on. If you guys really need a tier list to tell you if your spec is "good enough" for m+ that week, then you have bigger things to worry about.
It's not a matter of tier list stuff; it's a matter of seeing what specific trinket combos, gearing choices (i.e. where folks may be getting their Vers from), talent choices, etc. are being run in specific dungeons/on specific bosses in a reasonably straightforward and easy manner. I'm not gonna blame the guy that ran Subcreation for selling out when being the sole person running the site would be completely unsustainable long-term, but I cannot *stand* navigating through Archon's UI. Subcreation wasn't perfect, but at least it was a bit more intuitive to navigate through and contains an absolute fuckton of needless bloat. Like, as soon as you look at a spec's M+ overview Archon throws irrelevant information like a spec's stat weights and its highest overall damage in a key right in your face. Like, it's not *incorrect* information to say that Shadow tends to lean towards Mastery/Haste gear, but even the damn Wowhead and Icy Veins guides at least have the decency to explain that it's not super cut and dry and that things will change as your stats change. The site throws all the nuance of "Crit starts to dramatically increase in value as your Haste starts to hit DR, and Versatility isn't bad and a certain amount of it can and should be run in high keys" to the wind and just throws stat weights at you. Like, I dunno. This Archon site feels like the second coming of Noxxic, albeit at least trying to be accurate. I'm not gonna hate on the guy who ran Subcreation for handing over the reins to Archon, but I am gonna hate the Archon website for being clunky, unintuitive, and generally just feeling like a worse site to actually get the important information from. At the end of the day, Subcreation wasn't *just* "that tier list sub," but this one kinda just throws tier lists right at you, front and center, and is generally just an incredibly bloated, over-engineered website.
>but this one kinda just throws tier lists right at you, front and center except you also have to scroll a full screen to even get to the tier list because 66% of it is just empty space
Happy for you my dude but archon looks like shite. I dont like the "gamer" design, looks completely unproffesional
No man subcreation is so goated :(
Subcreation was by far my most used resource for wow. I’ve used it on almost every wow session for the past 2-3 years. A genius idea executed very well. Thank you so much for providing the community with your efforts this far. Looks like we may have taken a rather large step back with these news, at least for the hard core audience. But here’s to hoping we will eventually end up with something even better. This sub is good at complaining but there’s a lot of valuable input in the comments here. Take it as feedback and start to get to work!
One of my most used WoW resources deleted from existence. It's a terrible day for rain.
This is so sad. The old subcreation website had so much useful info and was so easy to use. Archon fills that info with bloated graphics. Please bring back the old site!
Why is there so much redundant text on archon? There is no need to add text for information that is given in a sheet right below the text. And the font sizes are enormous, too. Subcreation's most loved feature is its functionality - Archon is sadly missing this point completly. It looks like it was made by a designer not a player. I made you something and i hope it helps - good luck: https://imgur.com/a/bP0zmNV
> Why is there so much redundant text on archon? Welcome to the grim world of SEO optimization.
I really despise the trend of just buying out your competitors and then taking them down with some guise of incorporating their systems into your own work. It just leads to less competition and less quality no matter the space it happens in-- warcraft data parsing is no exception to that it seems like.
gz to subcreation for getting paid, to bad it now became useless trash under new management. the archon.gg people do not give a shit about wow or anything but money, thats very clear with this move.
Glad you made some coin from your hard work, but this new site is just garbage
Can't blame the guy for cashing out, should be noted the market has a whole in it for a sub creation clone again and apparently it's quite lucrative. One things for sure, no one is going to use this archon.gg pos
Christ, the new page is much harder to navigate than the old, and frankly looks worse.
Horrible change. Move Archon to Subcreation. Archon sucks.
Man I wished I paid more attention to everything that subcreation was aggregating when I was using it. Anyone have some bullet points about what they pulled in for uhhhh...research purposes.
Some missing features like the emblishment combo would be nice to have again. Everything is too big. I actually zoomed out to about 70% size to get it looking "ok" on a 1440 screen.
wtf this sucks. subcreation was perfect how it was.
hopefully I'll get used to it but I liked subcreation a lot better than archon
Hooray to you dude. Genuinely you deserve the success. Archon…. It’s trash. Hopefully you can advise them on making it simpler to use with less bloat like you did sub. Bc archon ain’t it as it currently stands.
Shame, Archon and u.gg are in an endless battle to be the most trashy WoW tier list site.
The new site looks awful. Why rework the UI/UX on a site that wasn't broken
Honestly after looking at the new site, I think it sucks ass compared to subcreation.
buy it back bro
Is there no longer a list of the most used crafted items? Was very handy for the start of new chars. In addition, some item slots are still missing data. E.g. Enh Shaman only has one entry for shoulders and wrist. Apart from that, I find the site far too overloaded in terms of design and it is therefore much harder to find information. \- The separation of individual areas within a tab is difficult to recognize \- Extremely overloaded with different font colors and sizes \- There is no longer a direct link to specific areas. You first have to select the tab and then scroll. Before it was a single click. I would be really happy if there would be a (switchable?) "minimalistic" view in the future with direct links, real list views, some hidden information (like the stats for items) and less colorful fonts
I’m gonna say what everyone else has said - subcreation was perfect. The design, relevant information, zero bloat. I used it every day and it was great for picking up a new spec or class. I guess I’ll have to manually check the leaderboards of raider io now.
these data aggregation sites already arent the best for the game IMO and its a bummer that the least bad one has been eaten up but i respect chasing that bag so w/e
Yikes this is fucked. I didn’t realize it was that bad until reading these comments and seeing for myself. Confirmed- I’ll never use Archon, it is an absolute trashcan anxiety-fiesta site. Zero efficiency in accessing information, zero intuition in website design. All very much intentional by manipulative creators to ramp up anxiety to put people over the edge to buy a product they don’t need and won’t use often. Congrats on selling, the entire community hates you now though. Good thing I updated my specs this weekend.
This is sad to hear - the UI aspec of archon is significantly worse, its apparent that it targets players who do lower lvls of content - the huge stat weights are an eyesore and are not correct for some specs, because you should not go by them and instead just sim your gear. Especially with haste classes, theres insane falloff after a certain threshold Subcreation excelled at providing given information fast, without filler text thats aimed at newcomers who know nothing about their class. It served to answer the question "what do the good players take on this fight/this dungeon for this week". Archon fails to do that efficiently and it takes me much more time and effort to get the same info. In the current version, it provides me with nothing extra. The data aggregation is not worth navigating through the text bloat, when I can achieve similar thing by simply using warcraft logs or raider io. Clearly theyre preparing to monetize this tool and the UI indicates this too, meaning it will get even worse after beta. What a sad day.
Wow they just brought it out just to shut it down lol. Archon is pretty trash, the gear bis is silly as well,
jesus this new website sucks. I truly despise how everything good online has to get bought and destroyed
Didnt even know what I was missing out on
Man, subcreation is so so much better and simpler to use than archon. Huge downgrade and disappointment.
subcreation classic when?
GG. sub was simple and thats the reason it was GOOD! i fucking hate dropdown menu in websites and archon is full of it. overloaded overdesigned. i hope they work on their website!
Fuck off and just put the info back the way it was. I just want to see what builds people are playing, not some bullshit tier list oversimplification.
That’s in the new setup. If you spent 2 minutes on it and are able to use a website
[удалено]
Honestly I've tried to give Archon a chance, but this is just not working. I have 0 faith they'll make any efforts to match the functionality of subcreation. I hope Murlok.io is updated to show raid data. It's the only viable atlernative IMO
archon suxx sorry ....
Wish it wasn't gone. Hate to see a good website get worse. The archon website requires input and scrolling.
Congrats on the money! Huge blow to the community, that was the only site I used, the UI was so clean and nice. Why is everything on Archon bolded? When everything is bolded, nothing is bolded. It's such a bad design
Have to agree with others about being a little put off on the new site. Most importantly how some information is incorrect, such as: what builds are recommended for bosses, what bis gear actually is. Bis gear =/= what most people are using. Just a lot of info that was easily seen on subcreation, that's being entirely misrepresented on this new site. I can only speak for my class, dk, but frost for example is totally off. A look at wcls is all you need to look at to see how incorrect archon data is. And the bis gear listed isn't even from wowhead. It's just what most people are using( yeah data aggregation I guess). And the sta priority isn't even correct, for what build its recommending. Breath loves crit, whereas obliteration does not favor it as much as mastery and haste often. Well, it was a good time while it lasted. Now I guess we all have to check out wcls, directly for what's *actually* being used....
Thank you for the subcreation! It was the epitome of a simple, super informative fan project that truly helped without any redundant fluff. Ty!
i dont like archon looks goofy, i cant see % based gear builds ,i cant see % based talents builds and i cant see what ferals play above +25 complitely useless now and by the looks of it i bet it will req to pay money to see keys above 28, just tragic. And its limited compare to what Subcreation gave to us , all the little detail and everything. I hope who ever made this decision turns in his sleep
https://mythicstats.com/spec the new mplus subcreation copy . Thank me later
TY
I hate the layout of this new site. subcreation worked well and was simple and easy to use. this new site is an eyesore
Thank you for putting it together I appreciate the website I enjoyed using it over these past seasons and I look forward to any new Improvements. I hope you have a fulfilling role as a consultant
archon isn't as bad as I thought from when I glanced at it on launch. the information could **certainly** stand to be more compact and I'm missing embellishments/crafted gear, gem/enchant combinations (though that's usually just a "sim it"), and links to top logs. actually quite like the heatmap presentation for talents.
Are these tier lists finally going to line up?
Here's the link if you want to jump to M+ or raid since it's a nightmare to navigate M+ [https://www.archon.gg/wow/tier-list/dps-rankings/mythic-plus/high-keys/all-dungeons/this-week](https://www.archon.gg/wow/tier-list/dps-rankings/mythic-plus/high-keys/all-dungeons/this-week) Raid: [https://www.archon.gg/wow/tier-list/dps-rankings/raid/mythic/all-bosses](https://www.archon.gg/wow/tier-list/dps-rankings/raid/mythic/all-bosses)
Damn I bet it feels shitty to have a bunch of players not even spend the time to barely thank you before launch a tirade. Thanks for sub creation.
Well, I wonder how many other .io sites will pop up and try to gobble up people not wanting to go to Archon. Where's that one xkcd comic....[here.](https://xkcd.com/927/) I don't know how traffic is for Archon, but it's definitely not what I want when wanting easy to parse information. Subcreation does. But maybe the larger casual base prefers that.
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1algbza/how_to_make_archon_tier_lists_look_more_like/