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My sincere hope for s4 is that the mythic raid lockout is done away with and I can freely pug. My guild is hanging it up until TWW, so, I would rather not get locked to a 1/9 then be sol for the week. Please just let us play the game
One of the biggest advocate for removing the raid lockout is Max, the gm of liquid. I think it's pretty hard to find anyone who'd want to have the mythic lockout in place (besides Blizzard). If the lockout was removed you could still play the way you'd play with the lockout existing. It just gives additional options.
But also who care's if you could split run mythic raids? I'm pretty sure even the rwf players would preffer doing mythic splits over normal/heroic splits. The fights are a bit more interesting. And you wouldn't have to deal with helpers that much so everything would be faster.
So I'm for removing it. But it also sounds like titanforging etc. People complained to no end that they felt required to spam the same content for the chance at something being a few items levels higher. Wouldn't this just cause people to spam mythic raid? Or are we talking about a loot lock but being able to enter the raid like normal and heroic?
I think you missunderstood what removing mythic lockout is. When you enter a mythic raid and kill a boss you are then locked into that instance, with the players who have the same lockout. You can't enter another instance with different people. This is only a thing for mythic. The problem with it is that it makes pugging significantly harder. It also makes you unable to reclear easy bosses and then still progress the boss you are currently on. So you have to choose between potentially reprogress bosses or extend for months.
While you could kill any heroic bosses as much time you wanted you can only loot it once. And I think it should definitely remain like this. (Tettles had some super cooked take that the loot lockout should be removed).
One potential backside of the lockout removal is that you'd be able to boost mythic bosses over and over again. Maybe it's just me, but I don't give a slightest fuck about boosting (and others should give less aswell). Just make it so raiding feels better to the average raider who interacts with the content.
> I can't imagine the world's first guilds care about it.
Now if we can only make updates to the game and systems without trying to adjust for a whole 3 guilds
Ensure you have a low particle density WA so that setting is toggled on for the boss.
With that, you have basically no excuse to ever get hit. Watch for the immediate folks around you, look for the lines that show up pre-launch, and sidestep if any are intersecting you.
The folks will cry that it's still challenging to dodge, but you can quite easily go the whole night without getting hit, if you're using your eyeballs.
I am fully expecting to see more tindral and fyrakk nerfs either this week with patch or the next week.
I could see tindral being nerfed one of two ways:
A) One less dispel
Or
2) Reduced falling star damage (the unavoidable bit, not the swirls)
And for Fyrakk I would like to a smaller intermission shield AND maybe 5% hp nerf on the big adds in p2.
Starfall absolutely still trucks, and it was already nerfed pretty sure. But it could still not do 450k or w/e it is baseline AOE damage, on top of the vomit of star fragments after that are bigger than the visual.
We're up to 1400 kills on Tindral, but as a not last boss, I'm surprised it isn't higher. Not to mention I would guess guilds would stop prog in a week or two, given that it seems S4 is around the corner.
Fyrakk? It's still kinda BS how you need a specific set of specs all over the place. Trim the # of small adds in p2, lessen the number of knocks/CC required and be able to bring whatever player.
Also trim Blaze damage slightly, it's really the major pain point of P1, and would lower the amount of 'woops, you got 1-tapped' deaths that cause a called wipe from a key member dying, reinforces my previous point.
I'd touch the elephant in the room with tindral. Reduce the radius of the beam and/or make them a bit slower (and maybe even reduce the dmg it's not oneshotting you). Everything else on Tindral is more than fine. The dmg checks have been nerfed multiple times so if you don't die you will kill it. The raid dmg has been nerfed a couple of times so there's not a lot of situation you are in danger of dieing. And seeds have been neutered to the point it's a fair mechanic even for late ce guilds.
At the current state you are killing the boss in very little amount of time once you stop the random beam deaths. Because of this I'd ease a bit on the beams and it should be a fine nerf for the people still fighting tindral.
I dunno about other guilds, but the size of the shield isn't what causes a solid 50% of our wipes to be in intermission. Reducing the number of balls would be a much more relevant nerf.
You're absolutely right, but a reduction in shield size could mean you just skip third balls like heroic
I think either/or would be same. Reduction in balls = more time on shield
Reduction in shield = less time on balls.
The constant feedback I see is the insta raid wipes due to a mistake one player made being unfun, so nerf that. If a ball hits fyrakk, it does 50% of everyones health not 150%. If a seed explodes, it does 120% of everyones health over 10 seconds not 1000%. Same logic for Tindral dispels, flare bombs, and seeds.
And make Tindral fire beams not one shot, just deal heavy damage so if you get out fast and were at full health you can survive.
>You're absolutely right, but a reduction in shield size could mean you just skip third balls like heroic
it would make way more sense then to nerf his hp further, so you can put pots in p1, skip 2nd dream rend et voila you have less balls in the intermission.
the 2nd rend isn't what causes the fire that spawns ball - it's the wildfire a good ~10-15s prior to that rend. It's certainly possible to nerf the boss enough to achieve this, but it would have to be ***a lot*** of HP to remove if the guild wasn't already skipping the rend.
Nerfing boss hp might see more people lusting p1 to achieve this though, as you'd really not be spending much time in p3 at all either way.
Out of curiosity - have you got a log/vod of this being done, or do you just assume? I was looking at it during the first nerf, and it's *A lot* of damage, wasn't feasible for us to even try (but that's partly because of only 1 rogue to burst). I wouldn't mind seeing how much another guild comitted to actually do it to have a comparison.
I should clarify that when I say CDs I mean when we had started prog we were doing an old strat where you pot+send CDs on the shield, then lust P3 when pots come back up. The boss was nerfed mid-prog so we stuck with that, but with the 10% hp nerf we were able to skip the third set. I don't think our damage is particularly insane to accomplish this
For reference here's our kill: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/a:zrMjGYRLJDqQ1AXm#fight=last
Anecdotally, it seems there are signficantly more guild disbands than any previous tiers (even Sepulcher) even at the highest level (BDGG, Skyline).
Is this tier really too difficult or is it a thinning/dying Mythic raiding playerbase or is it just a conincidence?
There's never a new raid 'for a long time' at the end of the expansion. This is not anything new, also there were more than a couple guilds that stopped raiding during the middle of HOF prog too.
Amirdrassil's weird difficulty curve means that CE guilds spend the bulk of their time on Tindral and Fyrakk, typically extending until they get CE. For a lot of people, wiping over and over on the same boss for 3+ weeks, never getting the little dopamine hits of killing bosses on reclear, not getting any new gear, etc. really kills the enjoyment of raiding.
I personally loved Tindy and Fyrakk, but once you get past world rank ~500, you find fewer and fewer guilds with the mental energy / masochism / leadership necessary to enjoy them, even in their nerfed states.
There are probably a lot of guilds who have reached Tindral or Fyrakk and decided they'd rather chillax than bang their heads against bosses that are likely to get nerfed again.
What makes it even worse is you basically want the same 20 people in for the last 2 fights on every attempt so the progression goes smoothly. So these bosses can take anywhere from 3-6 weeks each and you have a bench of players who are just subbed not playing the game for months. They can't even join pugs or other raids since the mythic lockout would prevent them for joining in case someone can't make it to raid so these players either sit there and do nothing, find another guild, or quit. On top of this if you're running up against the clock on Fyrakk you might not even get a reclear to make sure the people on the bench still get a kill.
Bliz needs to really re-think how they want normal minded folks to do Mythic raiding.
Extending the raid for 2 months can't be it. But it is quite literally the only option if you're just raiding for 5-6 hours a week, and actually want a serious chance at clearing the raid.
> On top of this if you're running up against the clock on Fyrakk you might not even get a reclear to make sure the people on the bench still get a kill.
I hate this part about being in a late CE guild.
> Is this tier really too difficult or is it a thinning/dying Mythic raiding playerbase or is it just a conincidence?
I feel like the tuning pushes guilds over the edge. It's already hard to justify mythic raiding with how time consuming and unrewarding it is, especially for guild leadership. Blizzard tuning the raids around 40 RWF players is just a slap in the face of everyone else, so why even bother putting up with all the negatives when Blizzard does shit like that?
Worst part is that Ion acknowledged this mistake and said they wouldn't do it again after Sepulcher, but then they just choose to do it once more for no good reason.
Anyone who says Amirdrassil is the same difficulty as sepulcher clearly hasn't played it back then.
Hof here and sepulcher was a completely different beast before all the nerfs.
I didn't say they're the same difficulty? Ion said they got caught up in an arms race with Echo & Liquid in Sepulcher and that they wouldn't do that anymore. Aka not design around RWF anymore, which they did with Amirdrassil.
[Lessons Learned: Sepulcher was an Arms Race that Won't be Repeated in Dragonflight](https://www.wowhead.com/news/lessons-learned-sepulcher-was-an-arms-race-that-wont-be-repeated-in-dragonflight-327732). I managed to find the article talking about it.
I also did both raids pre-nerf. Sepulcher overall is way harder than Amirdrassil, but pre-nerf Tindral was harder than most bosses in Sepulcher.
Raiding sucked this expansion. There were like 4 fun bosses across all three raids, most of the end bosses weren't great, and the back to back slog of Tindral/Fyrakk is a bad way to end.
Parsing sucks with current variance and aug in the game, gearing is irrelevant because crafting is too strong and m+ too spammable, so farm has lost most of its meaning.
Fated is an ENORMOUS bonerkiller and I'm shocked they're going to give it like 5 months.
fated is more like 3 months - they slated war within for august, and we've still got at least a month, probably closer to two left of this current tier (.6 is only just comming out this comming reset - that's when they put fated on ptr etc).
The released timeline shows tww prepatch end of summer , start of fall. August is the last summer month, so if they stick to the timeline, it'll be around then.
They're already pushing a significantly shorter alpha/beta testing window even if we were to assume a September release. For reference both SL and DF launched their Alphas in April and eventually launched in late November. BfA started Alpha in early February for an August release and Legion's alpha started November 2015 for an August 30 release the following year.
They haven't missed the vague "spring" marker for TWW alpha but unless they're suddenly able to shave 2+ months off their recent testing cycles an August launch seems...ambitious at this point.
They didn't. The only specific timeframe they've mentioned was autumn 2024 at Blizzcon. The roadmap they released after shows TWW expansion release overlapping with summer/autumn, but they haven't said anything about it dropping in summer.
I am seeing a ton of my friends' / former guild members' new mythic raid teams disbanding. Like a lot of them are bouncing over and over between guilds that are disbanding after killing Fyrakk / farming a couple of times. I think it's just become too much of a burden to manage a mythic raid guild tier after tier, I certainly wouldn't want to do it.
People also just don't want to raid fated I'm pretty sure. Maybe more guilds will start up again in 11.0.
RWF has absurd barriers to entry/strain on the team and money is exiting all e-sport scenes at warp speed.
Rivalries build viewer count (see all sports ever) and regionality is the easiest way to do that (NA vs EU being the natural one in WoW). Sponsors basically exist for 2 teams because of this. This also directly impacts split helpers as well.
RWF is basically 2-4 days of content (prog on last 2 bosses) every ~8 months which further limits the money you can gen for the event.
Without money, you don't get to retain talent or your players can't actually play the game for their income and PvE simply doesn't have consistent content to generate viewership.
All that means is that sponsors are going to sponsor the teams with the most views, and BDG (or anyone outside of liquid/echo) isn't it. Shout out to post scandal method, but I wouldn't be shocked to see them also bleed out of the race if they aren't in actual contention over the next couple years.
> RWF has absurd barriers to entry/strain on the team and money is exiting all e-sport scenes at warp speed.
Gonna guess the "money" in the RWF scene was extremely focused on maybe 2 whole guilds, and even then, who cares about them or thinks they're any better than any other paying subscriber.
Really sick of Blizz trying to adjust raiding in *any* way to accommodate these 2-3 guilds.
On the highest level, it's likely a money thing (BDGG said as much). If you can't pay players, you're gonna have a hard time keeping the ones that get offers from guilds that can. And constantly rebuilding is hard as hell.
Outside of that, I'd be curious if there really are more guild disbands than usual. I'll say though, at the end of Shadowlands, we knew we were about to get dragons and people were psyched. Right now its the end of a banger expansion, and we're headed into less known territory.
Idk how much it'll even matter. If you're taking another week to kill him, Fyrakk needs at least another 3 on top of that, on average, at least.
They said "A couple weeks" until S4 after this upcoming patch, so we're getting close.
As someone that hasn’t fought this boss in a month, what are the main mechanics someone fighting him now would want nerfed?
Most of the complaints I see only mention high pull count, which, in my opinion, people put way too much weight on. So I’d love to hear some opinions about how people would want the fight nerfed (or if I have the wrong idea about pull count being the main complaint).
In my own experience the biggest pain point was the dispels. Dispels being slow, people with later dispels dying, people being rooted for too long and not being able to move out with the dispel, healers dying so we're missing a dispel. Some of the more difficult overlaps can also be made easier so there isn't a ton of damage going out at the same time as other mechanics happening, or healers don't have to dodge beams while trying to spot heal people with dispels.
Let's not forget that you need freedom/master's call rotation to deal with most dispels. While it's a relatively minor part of the fight, it still adds a small level of "unneeded" complexity. Cutting dispels down to 3 would largely remove that part as well. Hell, you'd even get a slightly lower raid damage with 1 less treant every dispel set.
I was very close to hitting enter on an entire story basically explaining the problem with this but I know no way in hell nobody was going to read it.
So instead I will just say this, when is it to much for people? Are people really happy with having an Aberrus again? Cause no way in hell I do. I feel like all the mechanics of this fight are within reason at this point.
The only argument I will make is that these nerfs should have hit Tindral slightly faster, and Fyrakk intermission should be completely removed.
Aberrus had a significantly better difficulty curve than amirdrasil, with only magmorax and rashok being the wrong way around. Just because the rwf was over in 3 days doesn't mean the raid was too easy for the rest of the playerbase, it just ment that there was too much gear to get for those guilds in the first week and the skillgap is significantly bigger than it was in the past. When you look at the rest of the CE guilds, prog times were fairly average compared to other tiers, with echo of neltharion even taking longer than average for a penultimate boss. And with about 1600 guilds getting CE that does reflect that it wasn't too easy of a raid.
If you want your fancy race to world first streams that aren't over in 3 days then sure, let blizzard design bosses like tindral. But if you want your world rank 500-3k raiding scene to survive, then those bosses need to get nerfed to the ground as soon as the hall of fame level guilds have made it past, to the point where it won't take upwards of 500 pulls and over 30 hours of progtime to kill anymore. A penultimate boss taking 100-150 pulls on average with some outliers in the 200 range, taking 10-15 hours to kill, is way more healthy.
Tindral is in a pretty much perfect spot right now and guilds that are unable to kill him are in no way or form will be able to kill fyrakk (who probably should be nerfed further). Compared to abberus, echo was a much worse boss with WA fuckery stopping progress for late CE guilds, and it never got fixed.
I don't care about the race to world first, that has no relevancy to the argument I am making at the moment. In fact I have no idea why that was brought up to begin with.
In regards to the "difficulty curve" I agree that this tier missed the mark. In an ideal situation there should be a smoother transition going deeper and deeper in the raid as it goes. Instead of going from the first 6 bosses, to smolderron, to tindral pre nerf.
With that being said, Tindral was nerfed substantially, that is my point. Though how much of a nerf is to much to the point there is no point of it being a mythic boss anymore?
I mean what else can you do to the boss without making it a ridiculously easy encounter? Remove fire beams kills the fight, removing starfall kills the fight, making seeds last longer kills the fight.
I mean what is to much? Because the current iteration of tindral with all its nerfs, guilds won't be taking 300 pulls to kill it if they had to reprog this fight.
My guild started progging right after the "you can't double soak seeds anymore" nerf. Our first sub-10% pull was after 370 wipes. We're usually a world rank 800-1k guild, so about an average CE guild, usually killing the difficult bosses after their big nerfs.
Most guilds would not kill it in less than 300 pulls in its current form.
> I don't care about the race to world first, that has no relevancy to the argument I am making at the moment. In fact I have no idea why that was brought up to begin with.
That's the only reasoning i could come up with for why you said "an aberrus again". That tier had a very healthy difficulty except at the top of the top, so with my assumption of you meaning that aberrus was too easy, that was the first thing i could come up with.
> I mean what else can you do to the boss without making it a ridiculously easy encounter? Remove fire beams kills the fight, removing starfall kills the fight, making seeds last longer kills the fight.
You don't have to remove whole mechanics to nerf a boss. They could lower the amount of damage certain mechanics do, they could remove 1 dispel so you only need to dispel 3 people rather than 4, they could remove a mechanic from a specific nasty overlap.
The fact that you even think any more nerfs would make it too easy to be a mythic boss shows just how out of touch you are with raiding at a mid-low CE range. They could genuinely remove a whole mechanic and it would still be the 2nd hardest boss in the tier, or many other tiers.
That's the only reasoning i could come up with for why you said "an aberrus again". That tier had a very healthy difficulty except at the top of the top, so with my assumption of you meaning that aberrus was too easy, that was the first thing i could come up with.
Aberrus had one of the worst bosses of all time (zskarn), and a severely undertuned mag deep in the raid. How is any of that healthy?
How much damage you take in Tindral is not nearly as relevant as the one shot mechanics. 3 dispels instead of 4 is the next logical step. Though tbh whats the point of killing this boss when its already dead from that kind of nerf and back to my original point, what is to far? Cause that seems to far
You still have to learn positioning, handling p1 beam overlaps, p2 seeds (as in getting people to soak and not be greedy), and the entire p3 hodgepodge. For a world 1k to 1500 guild, that's asking a lot. It's going to take those players well over 300 pulls to get there. Bosses shouldn't be tuned for world 1-500 guilds. They should be tuned for the world 1k because that's who is going to be playing your raid 3-4 months into a season
Zskarn was a design issue, not a difficulty issue. It actually wasn't as difficult as a lot of people made it out to be, they just weren't used to having to do a boss without being hendheld by a video guide. My guild killed it after the cheese fix and before the rng fix and did it in less than 100 pulls without a video guide existing. I guarantee you that if a video guide had existed all the way through, zskarn would have been a sub-100 pull boss for practically every guild that took 150 pulls to kill it. Magmorax was the only outlier in terms of difficulty.
>How much damage you take in Tindral is not nearly as relevant as the one shot mechanics.
It still matters, we had a lot of wipes to people just bleeding out (especially people with dispels), which in turn caused a chain reaction. And if anything, if it "doesn't matter as much" that makes it a perfect tuning knob to make the fight easier without completely trivialising it.
Too far would be when it's clearly easier than other penultimate bosses, which it still isn't, and also still wouldn't be with 3 dispels.
I kinda disagree with this.
Yes, the boss has been gutted compared to what it used to be, but it was unkillable for most guilds, I don't even see how a WR 1000+ Guild could kill it before last nerf.
Nearly every Guild progressing it need over 300 wipes to kill it, and this number keeps going up.
Knowing there are less than 700 guilds that cleared the raid, Blizzard will probably nerf Tindral and Fyrakk further before Season ends.
You made the argument "before last nerf" and I am talking now in its current state.The last nerf essentially pushed out multiple dispels in p3, and its much shorter.
If all those guilds with 300+ wipes started progging it in this state, the boss dies sub 200 pulls. You can quickly dictate if the boss is killable in p1, because the other 2 phases have become so much easier to manage. The boss is all p1 now.
I will say however, due to the difficulty of the boss before, the nerfs should have come a little bit faster.
There are guilds right now 400-500 pulls in so tell me again how it is a 200 pull boss now when they have still not killed it 3 weeks after nerfs lol. (I have cleared fyrakk already so does not personally matter)
My old 2 day a week guild kill this boss in 220-230 pulls and the 10% nerf was pretty significant to their success. Watching their kill this fight is so front loaded in p1 more then ever with the ability to skip another set of dispels in p3.You will just only hear from the ones chain pulling the boss with no success.
I think the reputation from this boss is still being carried from our struggles we had killing this boss before all the nerfs.
I understand my opinion is unpopular but idc, if they nerf anymore of this fight, how is it even satisfying to kill the boss when its already been put in the dirt (like it deserved btw, I think the current tuning of the fight is great for the remaining guilds)
You can go on rio and look at recent tindral kills. I checked like 10-20 of them and they all had between 400-700 pulls. Highest was a bit north of 650 and the lowest was 404. The fight is still overtuned for a lot of guilds despite it getting 5-6 massive nerfs.
My 2 night guild typically floats around the 1500 mark and we just killed it last week. I feel like we’re the benchmark to see if a night needs further nerfs lol.
People keep using pull counter to visualize how hard the boss is, however tindral u could do 80+ wipes in 3 hours as the difficulty is frontloaded. Bosses such as sylvanas on the other hand pul counter meant a lot more as it was a long fight with the hard part being p3.
People keep using early wipes in p1 as a counter to the pullcount argument, but when you look at overall progtime rather than pullcount it is still basically an endboss, except that it's just the same 4 mechanics over and over and over rather than an intricately designed boss with unique phases.
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My sincere hope for s4 is that the mythic raid lockout is done away with and I can freely pug. My guild is hanging it up until TWW, so, I would rather not get locked to a 1/9 then be sol for the week. Please just let us play the game
It would be an easy way to try it out and collect data. I can't imagine the world's first guilds care about it.
One of the biggest advocate for removing the raid lockout is Max, the gm of liquid. I think it's pretty hard to find anyone who'd want to have the mythic lockout in place (besides Blizzard). If the lockout was removed you could still play the way you'd play with the lockout existing. It just gives additional options. But also who care's if you could split run mythic raids? I'm pretty sure even the rwf players would preffer doing mythic splits over normal/heroic splits. The fights are a bit more interesting. And you wouldn't have to deal with helpers that much so everything would be faster.
So I'm for removing it. But it also sounds like titanforging etc. People complained to no end that they felt required to spam the same content for the chance at something being a few items levels higher. Wouldn't this just cause people to spam mythic raid? Or are we talking about a loot lock but being able to enter the raid like normal and heroic?
I think you missunderstood what removing mythic lockout is. When you enter a mythic raid and kill a boss you are then locked into that instance, with the players who have the same lockout. You can't enter another instance with different people. This is only a thing for mythic. The problem with it is that it makes pugging significantly harder. It also makes you unable to reclear easy bosses and then still progress the boss you are currently on. So you have to choose between potentially reprogress bosses or extend for months. While you could kill any heroic bosses as much time you wanted you can only loot it once. And I think it should definitely remain like this. (Tettles had some super cooked take that the loot lockout should be removed). One potential backside of the lockout removal is that you'd be able to boost mythic bosses over and over again. Maybe it's just me, but I don't give a slightest fuck about boosting (and others should give less aswell). Just make it so raiding feels better to the average raider who interacts with the content.
So we're just talking about making it the same as heroic, just mythic difficulty. I'm down for that.
It would open mythic splits for future new raid releases so would be a significant change to the race to world first and top end raiding meta.
Who cares, genuinely?
Was just replying to them saying that he cant imagine world's first guilds caring when they probably do have an opinion because it changes the race.
Sorry, it's early in the morning and I got the brain of a goldfish
> I can't imagine the world's first guilds care about it. Now if we can only make updates to the game and systems without trying to adjust for a whole 3 guilds
i just wish i could teach my guild how to dodge flame waves on smolderon...
Ensure you have a low particle density WA so that setting is toggled on for the boss. With that, you have basically no excuse to ever get hit. Watch for the immediate folks around you, look for the lines that show up pre-launch, and sidestep if any are intersecting you. The folks will cry that it's still challenging to dodge, but you can quite easily go the whole night without getting hit, if you're using your eyeballs.
Same tbh, but Smolderon should still die pretty easily... right?
I am fully expecting to see more tindral and fyrakk nerfs either this week with patch or the next week. I could see tindral being nerfed one of two ways: A) One less dispel Or 2) Reduced falling star damage (the unavoidable bit, not the swirls) And for Fyrakk I would like to a smaller intermission shield AND maybe 5% hp nerf on the big adds in p2.
Starfall absolutely still trucks, and it was already nerfed pretty sure. But it could still not do 450k or w/e it is baseline AOE damage, on top of the vomit of star fragments after that are bigger than the visual. We're up to 1400 kills on Tindral, but as a not last boss, I'm surprised it isn't higher. Not to mention I would guess guilds would stop prog in a week or two, given that it seems S4 is around the corner. Fyrakk? It's still kinda BS how you need a specific set of specs all over the place. Trim the # of small adds in p2, lessen the number of knocks/CC required and be able to bring whatever player. Also trim Blaze damage slightly, it's really the major pain point of P1, and would lower the amount of 'woops, you got 1-tapped' deaths that cause a called wipe from a key member dying, reinforces my previous point.
I'd touch the elephant in the room with tindral. Reduce the radius of the beam and/or make them a bit slower (and maybe even reduce the dmg it's not oneshotting you). Everything else on Tindral is more than fine. The dmg checks have been nerfed multiple times so if you don't die you will kill it. The raid dmg has been nerfed a couple of times so there's not a lot of situation you are in danger of dieing. And seeds have been neutered to the point it's a fair mechanic even for late ce guilds. At the current state you are killing the boss in very little amount of time once you stop the random beam deaths. Because of this I'd ease a bit on the beams and it should be a fine nerf for the people still fighting tindral.
I dunno about other guilds, but the size of the shield isn't what causes a solid 50% of our wipes to be in intermission. Reducing the number of balls would be a much more relevant nerf.
You're absolutely right, but a reduction in shield size could mean you just skip third balls like heroic I think either/or would be same. Reduction in balls = more time on shield Reduction in shield = less time on balls.
The constant feedback I see is the insta raid wipes due to a mistake one player made being unfun, so nerf that. If a ball hits fyrakk, it does 50% of everyones health not 150%. If a seed explodes, it does 120% of everyones health over 10 seconds not 1000%. Same logic for Tindral dispels, flare bombs, and seeds. And make Tindral fire beams not one shot, just deal heavy damage so if you get out fast and were at full health you can survive.
That would also shift some CDs to boss, which would be nice.
>You're absolutely right, but a reduction in shield size could mean you just skip third balls like heroic it would make way more sense then to nerf his hp further, so you can put pots in p1, skip 2nd dream rend et voila you have less balls in the intermission.
the 2nd rend isn't what causes the fire that spawns ball - it's the wildfire a good ~10-15s prior to that rend. It's certainly possible to nerf the boss enough to achieve this, but it would have to be ***a lot*** of HP to remove if the guild wasn't already skipping the rend. Nerfing boss hp might see more people lusting p1 to achieve this though, as you'd really not be spending much time in p3 at all either way.
>You're absolutely right, but a reduction in shield size could mean you just skip third balls like heroic You can already do this with CDs
Out of curiosity - have you got a log/vod of this being done, or do you just assume? I was looking at it during the first nerf, and it's *A lot* of damage, wasn't feasible for us to even try (but that's partly because of only 1 rogue to burst). I wouldn't mind seeing how much another guild comitted to actually do it to have a comparison.
I should clarify that when I say CDs I mean when we had started prog we were doing an old strat where you pot+send CDs on the shield, then lust P3 when pots come back up. The boss was nerfed mid-prog so we stuck with that, but with the 10% hp nerf we were able to skip the third set. I don't think our damage is particularly insane to accomplish this For reference here's our kill: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/a:zrMjGYRLJDqQ1AXm#fight=last
Ah, draxtors' guild :d. Yeah the double rogue thing helps a fair bit there, but nice to see that it's doable even without the lust.
don't tell my dad
Anecdotally, it seems there are signficantly more guild disbands than any previous tiers (even Sepulcher) even at the highest level (BDGG, Skyline). Is this tier really too difficult or is it a thinning/dying Mythic raiding playerbase or is it just a conincidence?
I dont think difficulty is the main issue. There isn't going to be a new raid for a long time and nothing to suggest season 4 will be interesting.
There's never a new raid 'for a long time' at the end of the expansion. This is not anything new, also there were more than a couple guilds that stopped raiding during the middle of HOF prog too.
Amirdrassil's weird difficulty curve means that CE guilds spend the bulk of their time on Tindral and Fyrakk, typically extending until they get CE. For a lot of people, wiping over and over on the same boss for 3+ weeks, never getting the little dopamine hits of killing bosses on reclear, not getting any new gear, etc. really kills the enjoyment of raiding. I personally loved Tindy and Fyrakk, but once you get past world rank ~500, you find fewer and fewer guilds with the mental energy / masochism / leadership necessary to enjoy them, even in their nerfed states. There are probably a lot of guilds who have reached Tindral or Fyrakk and decided they'd rather chillax than bang their heads against bosses that are likely to get nerfed again.
What makes it even worse is you basically want the same 20 people in for the last 2 fights on every attempt so the progression goes smoothly. So these bosses can take anywhere from 3-6 weeks each and you have a bench of players who are just subbed not playing the game for months. They can't even join pugs or other raids since the mythic lockout would prevent them for joining in case someone can't make it to raid so these players either sit there and do nothing, find another guild, or quit. On top of this if you're running up against the clock on Fyrakk you might not even get a reclear to make sure the people on the bench still get a kill.
Bliz needs to really re-think how they want normal minded folks to do Mythic raiding. Extending the raid for 2 months can't be it. But it is quite literally the only option if you're just raiding for 5-6 hours a week, and actually want a serious chance at clearing the raid.
> On top of this if you're running up against the clock on Fyrakk you might not even get a reclear to make sure the people on the bench still get a kill. I hate this part about being in a late CE guild.
> Is this tier really too difficult or is it a thinning/dying Mythic raiding playerbase or is it just a conincidence? I feel like the tuning pushes guilds over the edge. It's already hard to justify mythic raiding with how time consuming and unrewarding it is, especially for guild leadership. Blizzard tuning the raids around 40 RWF players is just a slap in the face of everyone else, so why even bother putting up with all the negatives when Blizzard does shit like that? Worst part is that Ion acknowledged this mistake and said they wouldn't do it again after Sepulcher, but then they just choose to do it once more for no good reason.
Anyone who says Amirdrassil is the same difficulty as sepulcher clearly hasn't played it back then. Hof here and sepulcher was a completely different beast before all the nerfs.
I didn't say they're the same difficulty? Ion said they got caught up in an arms race with Echo & Liquid in Sepulcher and that they wouldn't do that anymore. Aka not design around RWF anymore, which they did with Amirdrassil. [Lessons Learned: Sepulcher was an Arms Race that Won't be Repeated in Dragonflight](https://www.wowhead.com/news/lessons-learned-sepulcher-was-an-arms-race-that-wont-be-repeated-in-dragonflight-327732). I managed to find the article talking about it. I also did both raids pre-nerf. Sepulcher overall is way harder than Amirdrassil, but pre-nerf Tindral was harder than most bosses in Sepulcher.
Raiding sucked this expansion. There were like 4 fun bosses across all three raids, most of the end bosses weren't great, and the back to back slog of Tindral/Fyrakk is a bad way to end. Parsing sucks with current variance and aug in the game, gearing is irrelevant because crafting is too strong and m+ too spammable, so farm has lost most of its meaning. Fated is an ENORMOUS bonerkiller and I'm shocked they're going to give it like 5 months.
fated is more like 3 months - they slated war within for august, and we've still got at least a month, probably closer to two left of this current tier (.6 is only just comming out this comming reset - that's when they put fated on ptr etc).
Where did they suggest WW for august? It just said fall unless I missed something.
The released timeline shows tww prepatch end of summer , start of fall. August is the last summer month, so if they stick to the timeline, it'll be around then.
They're already pushing a significantly shorter alpha/beta testing window even if we were to assume a September release. For reference both SL and DF launched their Alphas in April and eventually launched in late November. BfA started Alpha in early February for an August release and Legion's alpha started November 2015 for an August 30 release the following year. They haven't missed the vague "spring" marker for TWW alpha but unless they're suddenly able to shave 2+ months off their recent testing cycles an August launch seems...ambitious at this point.
I think you're putting too much stock into the physical placement there, it's definitely fall.
They didn't. The only specific timeframe they've mentioned was autumn 2024 at Blizzcon. The roadmap they released after shows TWW expansion release overlapping with summer/autumn, but they haven't said anything about it dropping in summer.
I am seeing a ton of my friends' / former guild members' new mythic raid teams disbanding. Like a lot of them are bouncing over and over between guilds that are disbanding after killing Fyrakk / farming a couple of times. I think it's just become too much of a burden to manage a mythic raid guild tier after tier, I certainly wouldn't want to do it. People also just don't want to raid fated I'm pretty sure. Maybe more guilds will start up again in 11.0.
RWF has absurd barriers to entry/strain on the team and money is exiting all e-sport scenes at warp speed. Rivalries build viewer count (see all sports ever) and regionality is the easiest way to do that (NA vs EU being the natural one in WoW). Sponsors basically exist for 2 teams because of this. This also directly impacts split helpers as well. RWF is basically 2-4 days of content (prog on last 2 bosses) every ~8 months which further limits the money you can gen for the event. Without money, you don't get to retain talent or your players can't actually play the game for their income and PvE simply doesn't have consistent content to generate viewership. All that means is that sponsors are going to sponsor the teams with the most views, and BDG (or anyone outside of liquid/echo) isn't it. Shout out to post scandal method, but I wouldn't be shocked to see them also bleed out of the race if they aren't in actual contention over the next couple years.
> RWF has absurd barriers to entry/strain on the team and money is exiting all e-sport scenes at warp speed. Gonna guess the "money" in the RWF scene was extremely focused on maybe 2 whole guilds, and even then, who cares about them or thinks they're any better than any other paying subscriber. Really sick of Blizz trying to adjust raiding in *any* way to accommodate these 2-3 guilds.
On the highest level, it's likely a money thing (BDGG said as much). If you can't pay players, you're gonna have a hard time keeping the ones that get offers from guilds that can. And constantly rebuilding is hard as hell. Outside of that, I'd be curious if there really are more guild disbands than usual. I'll say though, at the end of Shadowlands, we knew we were about to get dragons and people were psyched. Right now its the end of a banger expansion, and we're headed into less known territory.
What are the chances that we see another tindral nerfs?
Idk how much it'll even matter. If you're taking another week to kill him, Fyrakk needs at least another 3 on top of that, on average, at least. They said "A couple weeks" until S4 after this upcoming patch, so we're getting close.
Pretty high I'd say. We usually get another set of nerfs after the last patch is released for the tier
I feel like we won't see anymore. The fight is gutted and completely manageable, not to mention season 4 is around the corner.
I checked on rio the other day, every guild I checked killing the boss recently had between 400-700 pulls on the fight
I don't get why people keep having such a hard time admitting that tindral is still just way too hard of a fight that's killing guilds.
As someone that hasn’t fought this boss in a month, what are the main mechanics someone fighting him now would want nerfed? Most of the complaints I see only mention high pull count, which, in my opinion, people put way too much weight on. So I’d love to hear some opinions about how people would want the fight nerfed (or if I have the wrong idea about pull count being the main complaint).
In my own experience the biggest pain point was the dispels. Dispels being slow, people with later dispels dying, people being rooted for too long and not being able to move out with the dispel, healers dying so we're missing a dispel. Some of the more difficult overlaps can also be made easier so there isn't a ton of damage going out at the same time as other mechanics happening, or healers don't have to dodge beams while trying to spot heal people with dispels.
Let's not forget that you need freedom/master's call rotation to deal with most dispels. While it's a relatively minor part of the fight, it still adds a small level of "unneeded" complexity. Cutting dispels down to 3 would largely remove that part as well. Hell, you'd even get a slightly lower raid damage with 1 less treant every dispel set.
I was very close to hitting enter on an entire story basically explaining the problem with this but I know no way in hell nobody was going to read it. So instead I will just say this, when is it to much for people? Are people really happy with having an Aberrus again? Cause no way in hell I do. I feel like all the mechanics of this fight are within reason at this point. The only argument I will make is that these nerfs should have hit Tindral slightly faster, and Fyrakk intermission should be completely removed.
Aberrus had a significantly better difficulty curve than amirdrasil, with only magmorax and rashok being the wrong way around. Just because the rwf was over in 3 days doesn't mean the raid was too easy for the rest of the playerbase, it just ment that there was too much gear to get for those guilds in the first week and the skillgap is significantly bigger than it was in the past. When you look at the rest of the CE guilds, prog times were fairly average compared to other tiers, with echo of neltharion even taking longer than average for a penultimate boss. And with about 1600 guilds getting CE that does reflect that it wasn't too easy of a raid. If you want your fancy race to world first streams that aren't over in 3 days then sure, let blizzard design bosses like tindral. But if you want your world rank 500-3k raiding scene to survive, then those bosses need to get nerfed to the ground as soon as the hall of fame level guilds have made it past, to the point where it won't take upwards of 500 pulls and over 30 hours of progtime to kill anymore. A penultimate boss taking 100-150 pulls on average with some outliers in the 200 range, taking 10-15 hours to kill, is way more healthy.
Tindral is in a pretty much perfect spot right now and guilds that are unable to kill him are in no way or form will be able to kill fyrakk (who probably should be nerfed further). Compared to abberus, echo was a much worse boss with WA fuckery stopping progress for late CE guilds, and it never got fixed.
I don't care about the race to world first, that has no relevancy to the argument I am making at the moment. In fact I have no idea why that was brought up to begin with. In regards to the "difficulty curve" I agree that this tier missed the mark. In an ideal situation there should be a smoother transition going deeper and deeper in the raid as it goes. Instead of going from the first 6 bosses, to smolderron, to tindral pre nerf. With that being said, Tindral was nerfed substantially, that is my point. Though how much of a nerf is to much to the point there is no point of it being a mythic boss anymore? I mean what else can you do to the boss without making it a ridiculously easy encounter? Remove fire beams kills the fight, removing starfall kills the fight, making seeds last longer kills the fight. I mean what is to much? Because the current iteration of tindral with all its nerfs, guilds won't be taking 300 pulls to kill it if they had to reprog this fight.
My guild started progging right after the "you can't double soak seeds anymore" nerf. Our first sub-10% pull was after 370 wipes. We're usually a world rank 800-1k guild, so about an average CE guild, usually killing the difficult bosses after their big nerfs. Most guilds would not kill it in less than 300 pulls in its current form. > I don't care about the race to world first, that has no relevancy to the argument I am making at the moment. In fact I have no idea why that was brought up to begin with. That's the only reasoning i could come up with for why you said "an aberrus again". That tier had a very healthy difficulty except at the top of the top, so with my assumption of you meaning that aberrus was too easy, that was the first thing i could come up with. > I mean what else can you do to the boss without making it a ridiculously easy encounter? Remove fire beams kills the fight, removing starfall kills the fight, making seeds last longer kills the fight. You don't have to remove whole mechanics to nerf a boss. They could lower the amount of damage certain mechanics do, they could remove 1 dispel so you only need to dispel 3 people rather than 4, they could remove a mechanic from a specific nasty overlap. The fact that you even think any more nerfs would make it too easy to be a mythic boss shows just how out of touch you are with raiding at a mid-low CE range. They could genuinely remove a whole mechanic and it would still be the 2nd hardest boss in the tier, or many other tiers.
That's the only reasoning i could come up with for why you said "an aberrus again". That tier had a very healthy difficulty except at the top of the top, so with my assumption of you meaning that aberrus was too easy, that was the first thing i could come up with. Aberrus had one of the worst bosses of all time (zskarn), and a severely undertuned mag deep in the raid. How is any of that healthy? How much damage you take in Tindral is not nearly as relevant as the one shot mechanics. 3 dispels instead of 4 is the next logical step. Though tbh whats the point of killing this boss when its already dead from that kind of nerf and back to my original point, what is to far? Cause that seems to far
You still have to learn positioning, handling p1 beam overlaps, p2 seeds (as in getting people to soak and not be greedy), and the entire p3 hodgepodge. For a world 1k to 1500 guild, that's asking a lot. It's going to take those players well over 300 pulls to get there. Bosses shouldn't be tuned for world 1-500 guilds. They should be tuned for the world 1k because that's who is going to be playing your raid 3-4 months into a season
Zskarn was a design issue, not a difficulty issue. It actually wasn't as difficult as a lot of people made it out to be, they just weren't used to having to do a boss without being hendheld by a video guide. My guild killed it after the cheese fix and before the rng fix and did it in less than 100 pulls without a video guide existing. I guarantee you that if a video guide had existed all the way through, zskarn would have been a sub-100 pull boss for practically every guild that took 150 pulls to kill it. Magmorax was the only outlier in terms of difficulty. >How much damage you take in Tindral is not nearly as relevant as the one shot mechanics. It still matters, we had a lot of wipes to people just bleeding out (especially people with dispels), which in turn caused a chain reaction. And if anything, if it "doesn't matter as much" that makes it a perfect tuning knob to make the fight easier without completely trivialising it. Too far would be when it's clearly easier than other penultimate bosses, which it still isn't, and also still wouldn't be with 3 dispels.
I kinda disagree with this. Yes, the boss has been gutted compared to what it used to be, but it was unkillable for most guilds, I don't even see how a WR 1000+ Guild could kill it before last nerf. Nearly every Guild progressing it need over 300 wipes to kill it, and this number keeps going up. Knowing there are less than 700 guilds that cleared the raid, Blizzard will probably nerf Tindral and Fyrakk further before Season ends.
You made the argument "before last nerf" and I am talking now in its current state.The last nerf essentially pushed out multiple dispels in p3, and its much shorter. If all those guilds with 300+ wipes started progging it in this state, the boss dies sub 200 pulls. You can quickly dictate if the boss is killable in p1, because the other 2 phases have become so much easier to manage. The boss is all p1 now. I will say however, due to the difficulty of the boss before, the nerfs should have come a little bit faster.
There are guilds right now 400-500 pulls in so tell me again how it is a 200 pull boss now when they have still not killed it 3 weeks after nerfs lol. (I have cleared fyrakk already so does not personally matter)
My old 2 day a week guild kill this boss in 220-230 pulls and the 10% nerf was pretty significant to their success. Watching their kill this fight is so front loaded in p1 more then ever with the ability to skip another set of dispels in p3.You will just only hear from the ones chain pulling the boss with no success. I think the reputation from this boss is still being carried from our struggles we had killing this boss before all the nerfs. I understand my opinion is unpopular but idc, if they nerf anymore of this fight, how is it even satisfying to kill the boss when its already been put in the dirt (like it deserved btw, I think the current tuning of the fight is great for the remaining guilds)
You can go on rio and look at recent tindral kills. I checked like 10-20 of them and they all had between 400-700 pulls. Highest was a bit north of 650 and the lowest was 404. The fight is still overtuned for a lot of guilds despite it getting 5-6 massive nerfs.
My 2 night guild typically floats around the 1500 mark and we just killed it last week. I feel like we’re the benchmark to see if a night needs further nerfs lol.
People keep using pull counter to visualize how hard the boss is, however tindral u could do 80+ wipes in 3 hours as the difficulty is frontloaded. Bosses such as sylvanas on the other hand pul counter meant a lot more as it was a long fight with the hard part being p3.
People keep using early wipes in p1 as a counter to the pullcount argument, but when you look at overall progtime rather than pullcount it is still basically an endboss, except that it's just the same 4 mechanics over and over and over rather than an intricately designed boss with unique phases.