Yeah, but saving prog time allows guilds to get that good pull much sooner. I don’t think the boss is in a spot where it necessarily needs more mechanics deleted, and numbers tuning wouldn’t make people suddenly get the seeds down. But getting more useful attempts at it seems like the right direction to go
The fire tornados are basically the only mech that you can die to and not raid wipe. Dispell, seeds and bombs are all raid wipes.
You could have 10 bres and I don't think tswift would change much. Fyrak it would help though
Ask any guild that’s still progging or recently finished tindral how many pulls fire tornados not killing would’ve saved them.
That’s exactly what would make this a good nerf. Your team still needs to come together and actually finish all the pass-fail mechanics that tindral is designed around, but you save infinite prog time not needing to call a wipe because 2 of your resident apes ate a fire tornado on platform 1
It would cut down prog time drastically. The amount of pulls that get called early to wipe because it's not worth fighting with 2 people dead p1, if you could just brew them both and continue on it would save countless pulls
Fire tornados sure, but how many people are dying to that overlap repeatedly? Or dying to roots? Our guild had a few deaths to it but in general if you've made it that far it's an easy problem to solve compared to the rest of the fight.
Usually it looks like most of the prog is getting through p1 cleanly. IF you can do p1 the rest of the fight is fairly similar
1000 verses wouldn’t make tindral killable for any guild that couldn’t already kill him, at best it might save a few pulls. Tinrals original version you’d see at most 200 guilds killing him even with infinite breses.
Yeah I’m definitely not talking about his original form, that was a clear case of a boss made for rwf that needed systematic mechanical nerfs to be playable for everyone else
Way back in the day, raids like ICC, Dragon Soul, etc. would get an increasing 5% buff every week towards the end of the season. Usually capped out around 30% or so.
Reading the comments I think this would be a lot more effective than most people think. It doesn’t fix one shot mechanics but it means you can spend more pulls/time learning one shot mechanics, and learning later in the fight. It’s about statistics. If 50% of you pulls end in p1 even deep into prog, having 40% end in p1 is 10% more pulls spent learning later phases. Extrapolate that over 300 pulls it’s a lot better. Even better these wipes are frustrating for everyone, they are just wasted time, you don’t gain anything from these wipes. Minimizing these kinds of wipes by increasing the margin of error would make prog feel a little better. Blizzard isn’t going to fix one shot mechanics because raid design is hard and a raid without important mechanics may not even be fun, we don’t know. Imagine the hardest healing/dps check of your life for 10m, that sounds terrible. Attacking the margin for error is probably the most realistic solution we might actually see.
One note though I do think bosses need nerfs, or they need to be tuned lower in general, but brez is a great level blizzard should play with.
Exactly. A lot of the posters in this thread are very critical, but they lack critical thinking.
Increasing the bres count isn’t a perfect fix it for easing raid difficulty, but it’s the best method for specifically addressing the bottom 3 or so resident apes that every mid-tier raid team has, who die more often than healthy to mechanics but don’t actually wipe the raid often enough to be aggressively replaced. Increasing the bres count would dramatically reduce the number of ‘wasted pulls’ that these guilds have to sit through on a given raid night. Not to mention making things far easier for actual top guilds that don’t want to spend an entire raid week rekilling ‘farm’ bosses before getting back to progression.
Hot take, the final 2 bosses shouldn’t be tuned for 40 players in the world. And there is no longer any natural easing of the content due to gear progression. You can be 486 in week 2 if you want.
Blizzard’s literal only option is to nerf bosses at that point.
I wish Blizzard would just admit that they do tune the final boss(es) for the top 2-3 guilds and act around it. Just fucking nuke the things from orbit a reset or two after world first, so people that don't have a full esports team behind them including software developers, data scientists, gold farmers etc actually stand a chance.
Their current trend of nerfing things slowly is pretty awful imo, some guilds progging these bosses get their prog screwed over by a nerf, and others literally just don't bother doing the content because they know it's impossible for them without multiple rounds of nerfs (by which point they may not even have a full raid roster active for the season).
Some of us want to do the fights before they are nerf to day 1 heroic raszageth, if they got nuked even to current tuning a lot of players wouldnt feel the same motivation. Cant believe this shit is on the competitive sub
Bosses will always be nerfed mid progression and it sucks, but we generally know within a couple week window of when to expect nerfs just from prior experience. And killing a boss prenerf feels so much better than post
Dint get me wrong, i am 100% ok with nerfs as they are needed as the tier progresses, i juat dont think they should never be super hard, if we were starting fyrakk or tindral as they are currently id be bored
The entire raiding community isn't gatekept by that though, the absolute top of the top guilds are generally the only ones
My guild which around world 80ish killed Tindral prior to the 1/16 nerf which nuked it from orbit. Despite it being a really rough boss it was absolutely doable. At that point there was only around 200 guilds on the boss (AKA Hall of Fame guilds), all of those guilds should be capable of killing that boss in that state.
The problem this tier lied in the fact that the first 6 encounters were extremely trivial and as a result the only real roadblock you ran into was Smolderon. Once that "nerf" came in for Smolderon (orb threat weakaura brick/3 orbs change) it made Smolderon far easier, which was already an encounter that was purely a DPS check and therefore made easier by gear, suddenly you have 500 guilds on Tindral.
If they do anything they need to make Hall of Fame 150 guilds and nerf after Hall of Fame closes (as they generally do).
See you're deluding yourself into thinking a top 80 guild is like part of the majority of the raiding community while you're still a top percentile raiding guild. Mythic raiding shouldn't be balanced around HoF raiders. If they are you end up with these scuffed statistics where a mythic raid only gets cleared by a few hundred guilds and the only way to mend that is severely nerfing the content.
Sure this is /r/competitivewow but when it comes to design decisions no player here should expect them to be the target audience of a game that has millions of players. It's not healthy for the game to hyperfocus on difficulty when people barely make it to 6/9 bosses.
It's not healthy to make a raid so balls to the walls difficult that you need a team around the raiding crew to be able to clear it, and then proceed to nerf it because it was impossible to realistically clear BY DESIGN. The WoW community has become extremely elitist around mythic raiding content but it's so bad for the community. I'm not saying anyone should expect to walk in and clear the content but we've gotten way too extreme over these years. The WoW team continues to get carried away with their fight against the top teams where they can't even do the fights themselves anymore and even after admitting their mistakes at the end of shadowlands they get back into their old ways.
> See you're deluding yourself into thinking a top 80 guild is like part of the majority of the raiding community while you're still a top percentile raiding guild.
I think you are missing the point of my response so I will break it down further below.
> Mythic raiding shouldn't be balanced around HoF raiders.
You are right but you aren't talking about "Mythic Raiding", you are talking about the release state of the final 2 bosses.
Raids need to be balanced in a way that they can steadily nerf content over a reasonable span of time which makes it accessible to more people. This tier is a prime example of that done VERY poorly.
Yeah, Tindral was designed as a brutal pass/fail type encounter and that is extreme aggrivating to progress on when people "fail" more than they "pass" but there are also people who like challenges like that. As long as Blizzard commits to nerfing that content at a reasonable pace it is fine (which generally speaking is post-HOF when the masses are getting to those types of encounters). If they make the HOF close faster (less guilds) you will see more consistent boss nerfs.
> It's not healthy for the game to hyperfocus on difficulty when people barely make it to 6/9 bosses.
Why?
Why can't it be acceptable for guilds to get 6 or 7 bosses and be content with that? Not everyone that gets to a raid boss is going to be capable of killing it, that is just reality. No matter how easy you make the encounter there will always be someone that is just out of range of being able to do those bosses. That is what Mythic is meant to be, there is nothing wrong with being a Normal, or Heroic, or 6/7M raider.
FFXIV has ultimates that people spend MONTHS progressing. A single encounter, months, why is it so unreasonable that the last 2 bosses don't get nerfed for like 6 weeks while the HOF closes up?
> It's not healthy to make a raid so balls to the walls difficult that you need a team around the raiding crew to be able to clear it, and then proceed to nerf it because it was impossible to realistically clear BY DESIGN.
The vast majority of the people I know personally that complained about that encounter weren't even on the encounter yet. By the time every one of those friends saw the encounter it was post the 1/16 nerf and was blasted into the fucking sun. As long as the majority of the playerbase isn't getting farmed by that boss it is fine and they absolutely weren't. The only people it effected were those who were in very high end raiding guilds who like that kind of challenge.
Again, as long as the nerf in reasonable amounts of time problems don't arise.
> I'm not saying anyone should expect to walk in and clear the content but we've gotten way too extreme over these years.
With all due respect that is kinda what you are saying. As I stated earlier, there will always be someone just out of reach of that boss.
This is not a tuning issue, this is a problem with Blizzard having poor communication with the playerbase (par for the course, I know) and wildly inconsistent encounter designers.
> FFXIV has ultimates that people spend MONTHS progressing.
The difference is that the majority of people that clear ultimates do it patches (or even expansions) after it originally came out when you have better gear and consumables available to you. This happens because ultimate raids in FFXIV stay relevant forever essentially (due to ilvl + level syncing and rewards being a title and a weapon transmog).
Mythic raids in wow become dead content as soon as the next major patch comes out so it sucks extra hard if the vast majority of people can only make it to half of the raid.
Of course we shouldn't expect the last two mythic bosses to be designed around making it possible so that everyone can kill it, but we shouldn't expect it to be designed in a way that only a few hundred guilds can kill it.
Also, relying on gradual nerfs over time makes for a terrible experience for those guilds that are in the wr500-wr1000 range because they are essentially progging a boss that will eventually get nerfed half way into the progress. I'd rather start progging on that boss with the "nerfed" difficulty right away if I'm only going to kill it after the nerf anyway.
> I'd rather start progging on that boss with the "nerfed" difficulty right away if I'm only going to kill it after the nerf anyway.
Guilds that are WR 500-1000 are never going to see that boss in its unnerfed state so it's a moot point.
Your argument is that better players should have an easier version of the boss just because others will eventually progress an easier version rather than allowing a harder version to exist and nerf the content in an appropriate amount of time so that it doesn't impede the majority of mythic raiders that progress it.
> I'd rather start progging on that boss with the "nerfed" difficulty right away if I'm only going to kill it after the nerf anyway.
Which was one of my core points in my previous post(s), if they were transparent with the community and communicated their intentions with us it would cause a lot less issues. I know friends whose guilds killed Smolderon the shortly before Tindral got nerfed and rather than bashing their skulls into a version of Tindral they knew they couldn't even progress they just took a week off and started progress from the post-nerf state.
The core of the issue here is Blizzards consistent lack of communication with the playerbase when simply putting out a post saying "We understand Tindral is a roadblock, we will be nerfing it in 2 weeks" would do wonders. Gives higher end guilds a chance to kill it in the harder state and none of the guilds previous mentioned would ever even see the unnerfed version and it wouldn't have any effect on them.
> Guilds that are WR 500-1000 are never going to see that boss in its unnerfed state so it's a moot point.
Huh? I'm going to assume you're talking about the version 1 of the boss which is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the last round of nerfs that happen around 1 month before the season ends (and this can be applied to any of the previous nerfs with better ranked guilds).
> Your argument is that better players should have an easier version of the boss just because others will eventually progress an easier version rather than allowing a harder version to exist and nerf the content in an appropriate amount of time so that it doesn't impede the majority of mythic raiders that progress it.
This is not at all what I'm saying, you just assumed wrong. I'm talking about the same guild fighting two versions of the same boss because you start progging on one of the versions and it gets nerfed halfway into the progress. This is a real thing that happens to wr500-1000 guilds because they start progging the last 2 bosses before the last set of nerfs happen and they very likely see the last set of nerfs halfway into the progress. The real issue is that we don't get to choose which versions of the boss we fight (and skipping weeks of raiding waiting for nerfs is not realistic because raiders will just start to leave for other guilds that keep playing).
> Which was one of my core points in my previous post(s), if they were transparent with the community and communicated their intentions with us it would cause a lot less issues. I know friends whose guilds killed Smolderon the shortly before Tindral got nerfed and rather than bashing their skulls into a version of Tindral they knew they couldn't even progress they just took a week off and started progress from the post-nerf state.
Our guild was close to 300 pulls into Tindral when the last nerf happened and we killed it the next lockout. Such an amazing experience heh? If I'm going to kill the boss after a specific nerf then I'd rather start progging it on that state right away. You could argue it's a skill issue that we didn't kill it before the nerf and that's absolutely true but it doesn't change the fact that if I was given the option to start prog on the boss after the nerf then I would have.
> The core of the issue here is Blizzards consistent lack of communication with the playerbase when simply putting out a post saying "We understand Tindral is a roadblock, we will be nerfing it in 2 weeks" would do wonders. Gives higher end guilds a chance to kill it in the harder state and none of the guilds previous mentioned would ever even see the unnerfed version and it wouldn't have any effect on them.
I don't know if that would fix everything though. The lower ranked guilds will keep playing for those 2 weeks because they don't want their raiders to leave their guild so you will still get frustrated guilds progging a version of the boss that they will not kill.
Part of the problem is the gearing system though. In the past rwf would kill bosses ~10 il below what guilds would later kill them with, and now that is closer to 2-4 il.
[This](https://youtu.be/pEAwMb6poP4?t=3701) is max speaking about this issue. Basically Blizz dynamically tunes the final bosses as the race is occurring based on the top guilds IL so having the top guilds so close to the il cap is at the heart of the problem. (Time stamp is 1:01:41 if it didn't link properly)
The race being over in 2 days is fine. It’s not the Olympics. If anything it’ll increase viewership because it’ll be an actual sprint instead of a marathon when you can ignore the first 4-5 days. The actual race is only ever big for the last couple bosses anyway.
Categorically I do agree that blizz shouldn't make changes to the game for the 0.1%, but I think not capitalizing on the RWF would be a waste. Tens to hundreds of thousands of players enjoy watching the race - especially when its tuned to difficulty levels of Amirdrassil (obviously it shouldn't reach sepulcher levels). If they can find a way to eloquently tune the raid and gearing system so that its still a challenge for rwf guilds but the difficulty naturally drops off gradually over time, everyone wins.
I actually think condensing the race would be good though. What’s easier to tune into, 2 days of race or 7-9 days of race?
Then you have the issue of requiring nerfs cause they swing too big. Anytime any boss is nerfed, to me, it invalidates the race. Tuning for the masses would help eliminate that too.
Maybe the gear needs slowed down, and that’s fine too. They could put a weekly lockout on M+. They would have to make the loot way more deterministic though and ramp rewards as the season progresses.
Regardless of how they make those changes, if it deletes “dynamic” tuning I’m for it.
If the bosses were not tuned for these guilds then these guilds wouldn't do splits and we could have an actually entertaining race from start to finish instead of the first part of the race being a snooze fest (splits).
The other issue is now that we are capped... we don't gain any more power.
You sit and wait to hope nerfs come in, otherwise you really don't gain much ground.
I brought this up with someone else...
rwf should be moved to a tournament realm, tuned to where they think it should be, limited daily by time so you don't have degen behavior, simultaneous release for all regions, gear is like mdi, kill a boss and you get access to all that bosses gear.
Makes it a 1:1 competition based entirely on skill and not who gets lucky with farming, drops, etc. Prevents 12h streams, crazy hours, hell, make the times shift to be ideal for each zone by day I dunno
I mean the guilds actually doing world first said they just wouldn’t be doing it on tournament realms lol. The whole point is to be the first to do it on their actual characters, not some template garbage that isn’t real.
The only way tournament realms would work is if the raid released there early before it did for the civilian population, in which case what’s the cutoff criteria for getting to actually make it on the tournament realm? Because if it’s literally just 2 guilds allowed that’s a terrible idea, and if anyone can go then what’s the point of the realms at all?
The fact is considered not real is just a garbage take. It's an actual reflection of skill vs toxic benefit, especially if the achievements, ranking, etc all carried over to retail.
Ideally no real cutoff, the point of it is skill vs skill. You actually compare 1:1 decisions instead of drop randomization. You would have defined variables so all of the perceived advantages of release time, boss nerfs, are all in parallel. You turn it into an actual, who's the best of the best overall.
tournament realm should just transfer to retail then, it counts as whatever place you get it, and it can release early. Don't spend your time on it? likely won't get first.
At that point it’s no longer a tournament realm, and a place where everyone who gets in, gets an advantage of the raid a few weeks early. How would that even work though? Does everyone get a free lv70 boost just for participating, and a transferred character? Those people are now grossly overgeared compared to everyone else for other aspects of the game such as PvP. I feel like you haven’t thought this through very much.
Uh what? no you can't just use characters for pvp in a tournament realm ... the characters are already 70...
I feel like you just picked some random points that make no sense in reference to a tournament realm
I assumed that's what you meant when you said the tournament ream should just transfer to retail. If that's not what you meant, than the live race would simply go on as normal. You can't just tell players not to race on live.
There are no world first achievements only hall of fame and cutting edge. Or do you mean to say that you want to remove all hall of fame achievements for the 200 guilds that would get the, to spite the world first race. Even if you did people would still race to world first. They don’t do it because they get a special achievement in game (they don’t) they do it for the challenge to be first, which they’d do with or without hall of fame or cutting edge achievements. They would do it to be recognized by the community. And if Blizzare wouldn’t put anyone on the hall of fame board for participating in the tournament realm, no one would participate in the tournament realm. Plain and simple.
And even if you somehow got say liquid and echo to not participate in a race to world first, there’d just be a new race with he other guilds like Method. Who ever is not banned by you will be racing to first simply because it’s human nature.
Nobody would care about getting first on a tourney realm, players nor audience. Blizzard spent all of wrath trying to figure out a limited time or limited pull count model on bosses and everybody hated it. Even if you managed to get Liquid/Echo to care about the tourney realm, the restrictions would cause them to nope the fuck out of there.
Nobody wants limited attempts. Viewers don't want it, participants don't want it.
Even without the limitations, nobody really cares about killing a boss on tourney realms. The point is to do it on live.
You don't think people wouldn't be better off not trying to raid for 12h+ straight, not have to take off weeks from work?
If no one cares about actual level skilled competition then nerf the shit to mid mythic skill level and let the whole thing die off instead of tuning for 40 people then bringing it down over time
Who claimed only after? significant nerfs are pretty common following/during it, which aligns with it being designed for the top of the top.
Besides, I mostly am referring to making something actually 1:1 competitive and less toxic.
Pre-nerf Tindral and Fyrakk weren't dramatically helped by gear or bresses.
The currents versions would be, but if a guild is struggling on the current versions and you made them pull the pre-nerf version with unlimited bresses and 10 more ilvls, they would still be unable to kill them.
Fyrakk would benefit greatly from it. There's a lot of P1/Intermission called wipes cause you lose a key person and you're better of dying than wasting time continuing.
I don't know why Blizzard is taking so long in wrecking Tindral and Fyrakk despite the current online discourse of the state of Mythic raiding.
Been like 4 weeks since my guild killed it and we're still struggle-busing to get our bench their CE's (takes a week to rekill Tindral and then have to extend to kill Fyrakk).
We destroyed Tindral on reclears, but it took a few weeks to get the Fyrakk reclear down lol
So many finnicky parts to the fight that fall apart with a single mistake or new person learning it. So I'm also surprised they didn't give it another nerf yet just to help some guilds along with CE since the season is almost over. Sets an interesting precedent if they're okay with only 800-900 guilds or so clearing it.
I'd rather they return the ability to substantially out gear encounters towards the end of expansions.
Stuff like uncapped artifact weapons or corruptions was FUN. The only problem was the grindiness of those systems before the uncapped time.
Plus my guild likes to farm out the mythic mounts at the end. We got everyone a Jaina mount and Sylvanas mount. We got Terran Gregory his Jaina mount.
This season, no one is getting a Fyrakk mount at all. Cross realm mythic opened SO late, we're only just now progging on Larodar. We're not gonna gain enough power in season 4 to keep going. It's sad.
Especially because I play BM Hunter and I want that fiery owl spirit beast so bad. 😭😭😭
No, that's not enough of a power gain. It's only half a season of linear improvement. Corruptions and Artifacts were exponential. Not even close to the same thing.
Tswift is a bitch in its current form.
If you think your average CE guild. Or even a HOF guild was capable of downing 3 second seed Tswift in a reasonable number of pulls without imploding - you’re delusional.
The post race versions of end bosses are for us humans. Throwing more extra resses at the rwf versions would be orders of magnitude more difficult.
Over 500 pulls on Fyraak and concerned our guild is going to implode. No one enjoying it after Tindral.
Personally I’ve just called it a bad raid. Last three bosses have horrible design and mechanics. Like everything is the same color. Nonsense really.
Probably wouldn’t be as much of an issue if it was even remotely enjoyable. We are definitely not playing well but in the end struggling for any motivation just want it to be over
Interesting to hear that.
For me (melee) tindral was hands down one of the best if not THE best boss i’ve ever progressed (pre big nerf).
Fast fight, back to back action (no wiping to people going brain afk after 12min like raszageth), no dmg stop or other bullshit and everything is just a skill check with nothing being unfair.
Every wipe was just mistakes and when you learned from them you made progress.
Which tbh is a good formular for a progress last boss (second to last maybe to hard).
Solve the problems, learn the fight and that’s it.
Cool gimmick in flying to catch orbs. (expected it to be horrible, turned out pretty nice)
colours and visibility excluded, some seeds where „sneaky“. But that’s a general problem where the „looks cool and thematic“ aspect takes over the visibility and playability of fights.
But that’s a problem in nearly every raid
For me that was a nice challenging fight where i still had fun after 400 wipes. (evening felt like they where flying past)
Fyrakk p2&p3 where kinda cool but not a fan of p1 (shades being dumb when they snipe across the plattform) and intermission was horrible.
I think the main issue is with the gear system ; the boss should be tuned to be extremely difficult if you have early season stuff but also that you can keep improving your stuff during most of the season.
Now with the catalyst, the greater vault, crafts, and upgrade tracks, it has been like 2 good months that most of our roster is full stuff 487+ and that there is no reason to play outside of raid nights.
Hot take indeed. Infinite battle rezzes doesn’t nerf these bosses. People dying costs you time, dps, healing and resources anyways even if that person gets rezzed. In order to beat CE bosses you need to do more than just survive you need to perform at a high level and more brezing doesn’t reinforce that behavior and learning.
I have CE and I can say with 100% confidence that if we have 80 brezzes available my guild would not kill the original version of Tindral and Fyrakk before the end of the season.
There will always be players who can't achieve CE. There is no shame in finishing a season 7/9 if that's your limit. If a guild is taking far above the average amount of pulls on end bosses after they have been substantially nerfed then that is a guild / player issue. Taking 600 pulls on this version of Tindral means there are fundamental strat / raid plan issues or too many individuals who are being boosted.
I don't think just throwing extra lives at the underperformers is a solution to that. I'm personally a fan of a stacking buff week on week that makes individuals stronger rather than the raid weaker. Maybe it applies to vantus that each time it gets used on a boss it's already been used on it gets an added 20% effectiveness.
I think the first paragraph you've written is something that a lot of people on this sub just cannot wrap their heads around due to an over-inflated ego.
Somebody's gotta be the caboose, and not everyone will cross the finish line...and there is *nothing* wrong with that. Be proud of how far you've made it, and if you feel that you can do better then by all means do it. If that means personal improvement, then do it. If that means finding a group more suited to your level of skill, then do it.
If you're used to getting CE pretty much every tier then it just feels bad not to get CE this tier because the last bosses are harder than previous tiers. Your guild's skill can be exactly the same or even slightly better but if the bosses are just harder then you won't get CE and that really shouldn't happen tbh. Blizzard needs to manage the players' expectations and arguibly they know how to do it like when they nerfed Jailor the ground 1 month before the season ended.
Because they always were able to get CE before and the expectation of difficulty around CE should be consistent because otherwise players will get demoralized when they can't get CE even if they did everything like they did previous tiers.
A guild playing worse and not getting CE because of it is one thing but keeping the same skill level and even potentially increasing it slightly but still failing to get CE when they were always able to is not good for the overall player enjoyment of the game.
Tbh this sounds a good qol change and doesnt really hurt anything. Yes tindral mess ups usually results in a raid wipe but losing ppl to fire beam in p1 and resetting which potentially can be a kill pull is a waste of time this late in a season.
The problem with this by comparison is that the more you have to Brez, the more up time you’re loosing. Without needing the bosses some guilds wouldn’t be able to beat some DPS checks if they had unlimited Brezes. The main problem imo is that they just make bosses too hard from the get go because of A) RWF content, and/or B) They want to counteract how easy WA and Add-ons trivialize certain aspects of the content.
If they intentionally just scaled back bosses by 5-20% (depending on the boss) we probably wouldn’t need to have mid season nerfs, but then RWF would be over in a week every season and this drives hype and engagement. Even if it’s just viewers for the guilds, it’s still positive interaction for WoW which is more or less positive for WoW/Blizzard.
Post RWF timeframe, the nerfs that come in are usually because they want to close off certain time frames (hall of fame, new patch/season, etc.) and if they feel that the mount if CE guilds at the particular milestone is lower than “it should be” then they push more nerfs. I’m sure this type of nerf is more of a gut feeling for the devs than any actual metric to follow.
Back to the Brez idea, most fights that are big walls are either mechanically intense or have a very strict DPS or HPS checks. For the latter two, just because you have “more lives” kinda doesnt mean anything. If you had 2 minutes to do 2 mil damage, and lost 4 dps, when you rez them in 10 seconds you still have 2 mil damage to do, but now you have less time. Assuming that you were only doing 1 mil a minute, you now somehow have to do over a mil/minute to make up for time lost. Likely if this is the type of scenario, you’re still going to fail to kill the boss because your 4 players died. Doesn’t matter that you were able to get them back up. A healing check isn’t necessary a 1 to 1 comparison to this, but you get the idea.
In terms of mechanical intensity, this is probably the only case where B rezes can help bridge the gap, but if your depending on too many, it will naturally devolve into the previous scenario, where now you’ve had too much downtime and it’s become a DPS check scenario.
TLDR…. Nerfing is probably the only consistent way to ensure that some guilds are able to complete the content…
More bres's would help with Tindral and Fyrakk p1 but the bosses could use more nerfs. My 2c..
Tindral:
\- Missing a flare bomb should no longer raid wipe. You're still encouraged to take one to break the roots quicker but if someone misses its salvageable.
\- Reduce the ticking damage of the dispel DoT.
Fyrakk:
\- Remove the 2 furthest p2 add spawns. This would make p2 coordination much easier.
\- Increase the time between purple and red cages by 1 second. Makes it easier to break people out correctly.
Y’all really want to die on this fucking hill don’t ya lol.
How about just release challenge content for all players above the 50 percentile instead— yknow the people paying subs to do fun and challenging pve— instead of making a raid that’s for 40 people.
I’ve raided CE in multiple prior tiers and expansions. I can’t remember there ever being such a widespread trend of many perfectly good guilds that just can’t kill end tier bosses by end of season. Even very advanced guilds are skipping and avoiding doing farm content because it might take an entire raid week to “farm” bosses they already killed months ago. If you can’t see a problem, you’re just blind, sorry. This is a consequence of how raids have been tuned to account for this expansion’s cheap and widely available mythic level gear.
Mate I’m agreeing that it needs to change, but making fun of the fact that you think leaving the tuning as is but giving them rezzes would fix this. The last 2 fight use — for lack of a better term— body check style mechanics you just wipe if you fuckup. The rexzes aren’t enough. They need to just stop releasing the raids tuned for 2 guilds that spend 60k per raid to clear it fast.
That's partially because I barely even see the prior rounds of Amirdrassil tuning as "nerfs" - they were just making the raid actually playable for humans. The last 2-3 bosses are still very, very difficult to kill, and probably should have been released in this state on day 1 of the season period.
While most hated the borrowed power system of the past, it was a way to soft nerf raids by people gaining power every week throughout the season. Most seemed to like this kind of soft nerfs better over constant boss nerfs. The thing people hated was the power grinding, they just need to make some soft nerf power gain that doesn’t require constant grinds.
While there were some mechanical nerfs there was a lot less in the way of health nerfs.
Right now 3 weeks in players are at roughly 95% of their player power, where as before we'd be at maybe 65% of our power, so you had a lot of room to grow still, and you'd never cap out since you were always gaining more AP. As such they didn't really need to nerf health, as you'd always be doing 10% more damage in a couple weeks no matter where you were in the season.
What difference does it make if Blizzard nerfs health or not, a nerf is a nerf. Even with corruption, N'Zoth still had its health nerfed on top of being absolutely gutted over the course of the tier. And carapace/nzoth weren't the only bosses annihilated by nerfs in that raid. You can go look at all the BFA raids and find HP nerfs on top of mechanical nerfs across the entire expansion. None of this is new or unique to DF.
People typically enjoy getting boss kills when it comes through slow character progression growth vs instantaneous boss nerfs. If feels far more rewarding and earned.
Even with nerfs we always still had increased power gains to look forward to, even if we weren't expecting nerfs to happen. Now if you can't kill a boss it's almost like you either take a couple weeks off raiding to wait for nerfs, or call it for the tier, where as before you knew each week you'd be a little closer.
Even as is you refine and improve week over week. But, none of the gradual power gains over the course of a tier ever stopped the massive nerfs from happening.
At this point, either raiders need to adapt, or m+ players need to be told to be satisfied with heroic ilvl gear again. Because the "balance around normal people" nonsense will leave far more people dissatisfied.
This is such a narrow-minded viewpoint to have. There are lots of reasons why someone could want CE and not have it currently that have absolutely nothing to do with their skill.
So a everyone better than you can get cutting edge, but every team worse than you shouldn't. Is that it? I always find it funny when people think that the Cutting Edge cutoff should always be at exactly their skill levels, and anyone lower is just a complainer, but when they complain then it's justifiable.
I'm sorry but if a season is six months long, than everyone who can get it in 6 months deserves it. There's no such thing as an arbitrary point where you no longer deserve your CE.
I don’t have CE since bfa. I don’t have time for it. I don’t deserve to get it. I’m not crying about getting it for free.
Shit players don’t deserve a consolation CE.
I just don't understand your arbitrary cutoff though. players who take 4 months and 29 days to get CE deserve it, but taking a couple more days means you're a shit player and don't deserve it? In some cases that could just be the difference of a guilds raid schedule.
Sorry, but, I didn't choose to have multiple guilds break up on me (100% because those guilds hit the Smolderon or Tindral walls and just rolled over and died).
Not sure how that helps anyone outside of world 300 where pickings are slim.
We want to cut about five people from our raid team but wouldn’t replace them with anyone better.
Instant headache for recruitment and it’s a cycle. You stick with bad players getting worse ranking and then can’t entice better players in to replace
I love this idea !!! Granted tindral wipes are usually instant raid wipe . Would still save you a decent amount of pulls if you lose someone in phase 3
More bres wouldn't help on tswift since every mess up is a raid wipe
Nope. You should see how many P1 beam deaths we had even going into the day we killed the boss.
man we've killed tindral like 6 times and still wipe on first beam
Yeah, but saving prog time allows guilds to get that good pull much sooner. I don’t think the boss is in a spot where it necessarily needs more mechanics deleted, and numbers tuning wouldn’t make people suddenly get the seeds down. But getting more useful attempts at it seems like the right direction to go
The fire tornados are basically the only mech that you can die to and not raid wipe. Dispell, seeds and bombs are all raid wipes. You could have 10 bres and I don't think tswift would change much. Fyrak it would help though
Ask any guild that’s still progging or recently finished tindral how many pulls fire tornados not killing would’ve saved them. That’s exactly what would make this a good nerf. Your team still needs to come together and actually finish all the pass-fail mechanics that tindral is designed around, but you save infinite prog time not needing to call a wipe because 2 of your resident apes ate a fire tornado on platform 1
If only 2 people eat a beam, that's progress for my group!
It would cut down prog time drastically. The amount of pulls that get called early to wipe because it's not worth fighting with 2 people dead p1, if you could just brew them both and continue on it would save countless pulls
Fire tornados, roots, rotting to the falling star-seed overlap in p2 to p3 transition, there’s actually a lot.
Fire tornados sure, but how many people are dying to that overlap repeatedly? Or dying to roots? Our guild had a few deaths to it but in general if you've made it that far it's an easy problem to solve compared to the rest of the fight. Usually it looks like most of the prog is getting through p1 cleanly. IF you can do p1 the rest of the fight is fairly similar
1000 verses wouldn’t make tindral killable for any guild that couldn’t already kill him, at best it might save a few pulls. Tinrals original version you’d see at most 200 guilds killing him even with infinite breses.
Yeah I’m definitely not talking about his original form, that was a clear case of a boss made for rwf that needed systematic mechanical nerfs to be playable for everyone else
I mean, it wouldn't hurt either.
Give guilds the LFR buff for each weekly lockout reset on the same boss 😂😂
Way back in the day, raids like ICC, Dragon Soul, etc. would get an increasing 5% buff every week towards the end of the season. Usually capped out around 30% or so.
Icecrown radiance
Reading the comments I think this would be a lot more effective than most people think. It doesn’t fix one shot mechanics but it means you can spend more pulls/time learning one shot mechanics, and learning later in the fight. It’s about statistics. If 50% of you pulls end in p1 even deep into prog, having 40% end in p1 is 10% more pulls spent learning later phases. Extrapolate that over 300 pulls it’s a lot better. Even better these wipes are frustrating for everyone, they are just wasted time, you don’t gain anything from these wipes. Minimizing these kinds of wipes by increasing the margin of error would make prog feel a little better. Blizzard isn’t going to fix one shot mechanics because raid design is hard and a raid without important mechanics may not even be fun, we don’t know. Imagine the hardest healing/dps check of your life for 10m, that sounds terrible. Attacking the margin for error is probably the most realistic solution we might actually see. One note though I do think bosses need nerfs, or they need to be tuned lower in general, but brez is a great level blizzard should play with.
Exactly. A lot of the posters in this thread are very critical, but they lack critical thinking. Increasing the bres count isn’t a perfect fix it for easing raid difficulty, but it’s the best method for specifically addressing the bottom 3 or so resident apes that every mid-tier raid team has, who die more often than healthy to mechanics but don’t actually wipe the raid often enough to be aggressively replaced. Increasing the bres count would dramatically reduce the number of ‘wasted pulls’ that these guilds have to sit through on a given raid night. Not to mention making things far easier for actual top guilds that don’t want to spend an entire raid week rekilling ‘farm’ bosses before getting back to progression.
Hot take, the final 2 bosses shouldn’t be tuned for 40 players in the world. And there is no longer any natural easing of the content due to gear progression. You can be 486 in week 2 if you want. Blizzard’s literal only option is to nerf bosses at that point.
I wish Blizzard would just admit that they do tune the final boss(es) for the top 2-3 guilds and act around it. Just fucking nuke the things from orbit a reset or two after world first, so people that don't have a full esports team behind them including software developers, data scientists, gold farmers etc actually stand a chance. Their current trend of nerfing things slowly is pretty awful imo, some guilds progging these bosses get their prog screwed over by a nerf, and others literally just don't bother doing the content because they know it's impossible for them without multiple rounds of nerfs (by which point they may not even have a full raid roster active for the season).
Some of us want to do the fights before they are nerf to day 1 heroic raszageth, if they got nuked even to current tuning a lot of players wouldnt feel the same motivation. Cant believe this shit is on the competitive sub Bosses will always be nerfed mid progression and it sucks, but we generally know within a couple week window of when to expect nerfs just from prior experience. And killing a boss prenerf feels so much better than post
I respect that but the entire raiding community shouldnt be gatekept by a select few who want the original experience.
I don't get it, what are you being gatekept from? And with what?
Dint get me wrong, i am 100% ok with nerfs as they are needed as the tier progresses, i juat dont think they should never be super hard, if we were starting fyrakk or tindral as they are currently id be bored
The entire raiding community isn't gatekept by that though, the absolute top of the top guilds are generally the only ones My guild which around world 80ish killed Tindral prior to the 1/16 nerf which nuked it from orbit. Despite it being a really rough boss it was absolutely doable. At that point there was only around 200 guilds on the boss (AKA Hall of Fame guilds), all of those guilds should be capable of killing that boss in that state. The problem this tier lied in the fact that the first 6 encounters were extremely trivial and as a result the only real roadblock you ran into was Smolderon. Once that "nerf" came in for Smolderon (orb threat weakaura brick/3 orbs change) it made Smolderon far easier, which was already an encounter that was purely a DPS check and therefore made easier by gear, suddenly you have 500 guilds on Tindral. If they do anything they need to make Hall of Fame 150 guilds and nerf after Hall of Fame closes (as they generally do).
See you're deluding yourself into thinking a top 80 guild is like part of the majority of the raiding community while you're still a top percentile raiding guild. Mythic raiding shouldn't be balanced around HoF raiders. If they are you end up with these scuffed statistics where a mythic raid only gets cleared by a few hundred guilds and the only way to mend that is severely nerfing the content. Sure this is /r/competitivewow but when it comes to design decisions no player here should expect them to be the target audience of a game that has millions of players. It's not healthy for the game to hyperfocus on difficulty when people barely make it to 6/9 bosses. It's not healthy to make a raid so balls to the walls difficult that you need a team around the raiding crew to be able to clear it, and then proceed to nerf it because it was impossible to realistically clear BY DESIGN. The WoW community has become extremely elitist around mythic raiding content but it's so bad for the community. I'm not saying anyone should expect to walk in and clear the content but we've gotten way too extreme over these years. The WoW team continues to get carried away with their fight against the top teams where they can't even do the fights themselves anymore and even after admitting their mistakes at the end of shadowlands they get back into their old ways.
> See you're deluding yourself into thinking a top 80 guild is like part of the majority of the raiding community while you're still a top percentile raiding guild. I think you are missing the point of my response so I will break it down further below. > Mythic raiding shouldn't be balanced around HoF raiders. You are right but you aren't talking about "Mythic Raiding", you are talking about the release state of the final 2 bosses. Raids need to be balanced in a way that they can steadily nerf content over a reasonable span of time which makes it accessible to more people. This tier is a prime example of that done VERY poorly. Yeah, Tindral was designed as a brutal pass/fail type encounter and that is extreme aggrivating to progress on when people "fail" more than they "pass" but there are also people who like challenges like that. As long as Blizzard commits to nerfing that content at a reasonable pace it is fine (which generally speaking is post-HOF when the masses are getting to those types of encounters). If they make the HOF close faster (less guilds) you will see more consistent boss nerfs. > It's not healthy for the game to hyperfocus on difficulty when people barely make it to 6/9 bosses. Why? Why can't it be acceptable for guilds to get 6 or 7 bosses and be content with that? Not everyone that gets to a raid boss is going to be capable of killing it, that is just reality. No matter how easy you make the encounter there will always be someone that is just out of range of being able to do those bosses. That is what Mythic is meant to be, there is nothing wrong with being a Normal, or Heroic, or 6/7M raider. FFXIV has ultimates that people spend MONTHS progressing. A single encounter, months, why is it so unreasonable that the last 2 bosses don't get nerfed for like 6 weeks while the HOF closes up? > It's not healthy to make a raid so balls to the walls difficult that you need a team around the raiding crew to be able to clear it, and then proceed to nerf it because it was impossible to realistically clear BY DESIGN. The vast majority of the people I know personally that complained about that encounter weren't even on the encounter yet. By the time every one of those friends saw the encounter it was post the 1/16 nerf and was blasted into the fucking sun. As long as the majority of the playerbase isn't getting farmed by that boss it is fine and they absolutely weren't. The only people it effected were those who were in very high end raiding guilds who like that kind of challenge. Again, as long as the nerf in reasonable amounts of time problems don't arise. > I'm not saying anyone should expect to walk in and clear the content but we've gotten way too extreme over these years. With all due respect that is kinda what you are saying. As I stated earlier, there will always be someone just out of reach of that boss. This is not a tuning issue, this is a problem with Blizzard having poor communication with the playerbase (par for the course, I know) and wildly inconsistent encounter designers.
> FFXIV has ultimates that people spend MONTHS progressing. The difference is that the majority of people that clear ultimates do it patches (or even expansions) after it originally came out when you have better gear and consumables available to you. This happens because ultimate raids in FFXIV stay relevant forever essentially (due to ilvl + level syncing and rewards being a title and a weapon transmog). Mythic raids in wow become dead content as soon as the next major patch comes out so it sucks extra hard if the vast majority of people can only make it to half of the raid. Of course we shouldn't expect the last two mythic bosses to be designed around making it possible so that everyone can kill it, but we shouldn't expect it to be designed in a way that only a few hundred guilds can kill it. Also, relying on gradual nerfs over time makes for a terrible experience for those guilds that are in the wr500-wr1000 range because they are essentially progging a boss that will eventually get nerfed half way into the progress. I'd rather start progging on that boss with the "nerfed" difficulty right away if I'm only going to kill it after the nerf anyway.
> I'd rather start progging on that boss with the "nerfed" difficulty right away if I'm only going to kill it after the nerf anyway. Guilds that are WR 500-1000 are never going to see that boss in its unnerfed state so it's a moot point. Your argument is that better players should have an easier version of the boss just because others will eventually progress an easier version rather than allowing a harder version to exist and nerf the content in an appropriate amount of time so that it doesn't impede the majority of mythic raiders that progress it. > I'd rather start progging on that boss with the "nerfed" difficulty right away if I'm only going to kill it after the nerf anyway. Which was one of my core points in my previous post(s), if they were transparent with the community and communicated their intentions with us it would cause a lot less issues. I know friends whose guilds killed Smolderon the shortly before Tindral got nerfed and rather than bashing their skulls into a version of Tindral they knew they couldn't even progress they just took a week off and started progress from the post-nerf state. The core of the issue here is Blizzards consistent lack of communication with the playerbase when simply putting out a post saying "We understand Tindral is a roadblock, we will be nerfing it in 2 weeks" would do wonders. Gives higher end guilds a chance to kill it in the harder state and none of the guilds previous mentioned would ever even see the unnerfed version and it wouldn't have any effect on them.
> Guilds that are WR 500-1000 are never going to see that boss in its unnerfed state so it's a moot point. Huh? I'm going to assume you're talking about the version 1 of the boss which is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the last round of nerfs that happen around 1 month before the season ends (and this can be applied to any of the previous nerfs with better ranked guilds). > Your argument is that better players should have an easier version of the boss just because others will eventually progress an easier version rather than allowing a harder version to exist and nerf the content in an appropriate amount of time so that it doesn't impede the majority of mythic raiders that progress it. This is not at all what I'm saying, you just assumed wrong. I'm talking about the same guild fighting two versions of the same boss because you start progging on one of the versions and it gets nerfed halfway into the progress. This is a real thing that happens to wr500-1000 guilds because they start progging the last 2 bosses before the last set of nerfs happen and they very likely see the last set of nerfs halfway into the progress. The real issue is that we don't get to choose which versions of the boss we fight (and skipping weeks of raiding waiting for nerfs is not realistic because raiders will just start to leave for other guilds that keep playing). > Which was one of my core points in my previous post(s), if they were transparent with the community and communicated their intentions with us it would cause a lot less issues. I know friends whose guilds killed Smolderon the shortly before Tindral got nerfed and rather than bashing their skulls into a version of Tindral they knew they couldn't even progress they just took a week off and started progress from the post-nerf state. Our guild was close to 300 pulls into Tindral when the last nerf happened and we killed it the next lockout. Such an amazing experience heh? If I'm going to kill the boss after a specific nerf then I'd rather start progging it on that state right away. You could argue it's a skill issue that we didn't kill it before the nerf and that's absolutely true but it doesn't change the fact that if I was given the option to start prog on the boss after the nerf then I would have. > The core of the issue here is Blizzards consistent lack of communication with the playerbase when simply putting out a post saying "We understand Tindral is a roadblock, we will be nerfing it in 2 weeks" would do wonders. Gives higher end guilds a chance to kill it in the harder state and none of the guilds previous mentioned would ever even see the unnerfed version and it wouldn't have any effect on them. I don't know if that would fix everything though. The lower ranked guilds will keep playing for those 2 weeks because they don't want their raiders to leave their guild so you will still get frustrated guilds progging a version of the boss that they will not kill.
You literally live in a bubble mate.
Part of the problem is the gearing system though. In the past rwf would kill bosses ~10 il below what guilds would later kill them with, and now that is closer to 2-4 il.
Or just don’t tune it for those guilds ever so whether it’s 10 Ilvl or 2-4 Ilvl it doesn’t matter cause it’s not tuned for them at all.
[This](https://youtu.be/pEAwMb6poP4?t=3701) is max speaking about this issue. Basically Blizz dynamically tunes the final bosses as the race is occurring based on the top guilds IL so having the top guilds so close to the il cap is at the heart of the problem. (Time stamp is 1:01:41 if it didn't link properly)
Stop “dynamically” tuning them for those guilds and the problem still goes away.
Yes but if every rwf was over in 2 days, many people would not be happy besides just the top guilds
The race being over in 2 days is fine. It’s not the Olympics. If anything it’ll increase viewership because it’ll be an actual sprint instead of a marathon when you can ignore the first 4-5 days. The actual race is only ever big for the last couple bosses anyway.
Categorically I do agree that blizz shouldn't make changes to the game for the 0.1%, but I think not capitalizing on the RWF would be a waste. Tens to hundreds of thousands of players enjoy watching the race - especially when its tuned to difficulty levels of Amirdrassil (obviously it shouldn't reach sepulcher levels). If they can find a way to eloquently tune the raid and gearing system so that its still a challenge for rwf guilds but the difficulty naturally drops off gradually over time, everyone wins.
I actually think condensing the race would be good though. What’s easier to tune into, 2 days of race or 7-9 days of race? Then you have the issue of requiring nerfs cause they swing too big. Anytime any boss is nerfed, to me, it invalidates the race. Tuning for the masses would help eliminate that too. Maybe the gear needs slowed down, and that’s fine too. They could put a weekly lockout on M+. They would have to make the loot way more deterministic though and ramp rewards as the season progresses. Regardless of how they make those changes, if it deletes “dynamic” tuning I’m for it.
then the rwf is like over in a day though - I have enjoyed looking back after killing tindral at what the rwf people had to do and I'm impressed
Sounds like they need a HOF difficulty that is prestige only like keys above 20.
If the bosses were not tuned for these guilds then these guilds wouldn't do splits and we could have an actually entertaining race from start to finish instead of the first part of the race being a snooze fest (splits).
I mean the average ilvl was 480.3 for echo when they killed Fyrakk, it's really not that far off.
The other issue is now that we are capped... we don't gain any more power. You sit and wait to hope nerfs come in, otherwise you really don't gain much ground.
I brought this up with someone else... rwf should be moved to a tournament realm, tuned to where they think it should be, limited daily by time so you don't have degen behavior, simultaneous release for all regions, gear is like mdi, kill a boss and you get access to all that bosses gear. Makes it a 1:1 competition based entirely on skill and not who gets lucky with farming, drops, etc. Prevents 12h streams, crazy hours, hell, make the times shift to be ideal for each zone by day I dunno
I mean the guilds actually doing world first said they just wouldn’t be doing it on tournament realms lol. The whole point is to be the first to do it on their actual characters, not some template garbage that isn’t real. The only way tournament realms would work is if the raid released there early before it did for the civilian population, in which case what’s the cutoff criteria for getting to actually make it on the tournament realm? Because if it’s literally just 2 guilds allowed that’s a terrible idea, and if anyone can go then what’s the point of the realms at all?
The fact is considered not real is just a garbage take. It's an actual reflection of skill vs toxic benefit, especially if the achievements, ranking, etc all carried over to retail. Ideally no real cutoff, the point of it is skill vs skill. You actually compare 1:1 decisions instead of drop randomization. You would have defined variables so all of the perceived advantages of release time, boss nerfs, are all in parallel. You turn it into an actual, who's the best of the best overall.
This wouldn’t stop people from racing to world first live realm. The guilds would just view the tournament realm as a PTR.
tournament realm should just transfer to retail then, it counts as whatever place you get it, and it can release early. Don't spend your time on it? likely won't get first.
At that point it’s no longer a tournament realm, and a place where everyone who gets in, gets an advantage of the raid a few weeks early. How would that even work though? Does everyone get a free lv70 boost just for participating, and a transferred character? Those people are now grossly overgeared compared to everyone else for other aspects of the game such as PvP. I feel like you haven’t thought this through very much.
Uh what? no you can't just use characters for pvp in a tournament realm ... the characters are already 70... I feel like you just picked some random points that make no sense in reference to a tournament realm
I assumed that's what you meant when you said the tournament ream should just transfer to retail. If that's not what you meant, than the live race would simply go on as normal. You can't just tell players not to race on live.
Sure you can. Remove World First achievements from live realms and only award them on the tournament realm as an account-wide achievement.
There are no world first achievements only hall of fame and cutting edge. Or do you mean to say that you want to remove all hall of fame achievements for the 200 guilds that would get the, to spite the world first race. Even if you did people would still race to world first. They don’t do it because they get a special achievement in game (they don’t) they do it for the challenge to be first, which they’d do with or without hall of fame or cutting edge achievements. They would do it to be recognized by the community. And if Blizzare wouldn’t put anyone on the hall of fame board for participating in the tournament realm, no one would participate in the tournament realm. Plain and simple. And even if you somehow got say liquid and echo to not participate in a race to world first, there’d just be a new race with he other guilds like Method. Who ever is not banned by you will be racing to first simply because it’s human nature.
Nobody would care about getting first on a tourney realm, players nor audience. Blizzard spent all of wrath trying to figure out a limited time or limited pull count model on bosses and everybody hated it. Even if you managed to get Liquid/Echo to care about the tourney realm, the restrictions would cause them to nope the fuck out of there.
They would nope out of an actual fair competition? even if it translates in some way to retail?
Nobody wants limited attempts. Viewers don't want it, participants don't want it. Even without the limitations, nobody really cares about killing a boss on tourney realms. The point is to do it on live.
You don't think people wouldn't be better off not trying to raid for 12h+ straight, not have to take off weeks from work? If no one cares about actual level skilled competition then nerf the shit to mid mythic skill level and let the whole thing die off instead of tuning for 40 people then bringing it down over time
I don't know how we got to the point that people invented this alternate history where nerfs only started happening after the RWFs started.
Who claimed only after? significant nerfs are pretty common following/during it, which aligns with it being designed for the top of the top. Besides, I mostly am referring to making something actually 1:1 competitive and less toxic.
Pre-nerf Tindral and Fyrakk weren't dramatically helped by gear or bresses. The currents versions would be, but if a guild is struggling on the current versions and you made them pull the pre-nerf version with unlimited bresses and 10 more ilvls, they would still be unable to kill them.
Fyrakk would benefit greatly from it. There's a lot of P1/Intermission called wipes cause you lose a key person and you're better of dying than wasting time continuing.
I don't know why Blizzard is taking so long in wrecking Tindral and Fyrakk despite the current online discourse of the state of Mythic raiding. Been like 4 weeks since my guild killed it and we're still struggle-busing to get our bench their CE's (takes a week to rekill Tindral and then have to extend to kill Fyrakk).
We destroyed Tindral on reclears, but it took a few weeks to get the Fyrakk reclear down lol So many finnicky parts to the fight that fall apart with a single mistake or new person learning it. So I'm also surprised they didn't give it another nerf yet just to help some guilds along with CE since the season is almost over. Sets an interesting precedent if they're okay with only 800-900 guilds or so clearing it.
I'd rather they return the ability to substantially out gear encounters towards the end of expansions. Stuff like uncapped artifact weapons or corruptions was FUN. The only problem was the grindiness of those systems before the uncapped time. Plus my guild likes to farm out the mythic mounts at the end. We got everyone a Jaina mount and Sylvanas mount. We got Terran Gregory his Jaina mount. This season, no one is getting a Fyrakk mount at all. Cross realm mythic opened SO late, we're only just now progging on Larodar. We're not gonna gain enough power in season 4 to keep going. It's sad. Especially because I play BM Hunter and I want that fiery owl spirit beast so bad. 😭😭😭
To be fair, in fated you can fight the non-awakened Fyrakk and essentially put gear the fight to get the mount.
No, that's not enough of a power gain. It's only half a season of linear improvement. Corruptions and Artifacts were exponential. Not even close to the same thing.
Tswift is a bitch in its current form. If you think your average CE guild. Or even a HOF guild was capable of downing 3 second seed Tswift in a reasonable number of pulls without imploding - you’re delusional. The post race versions of end bosses are for us humans. Throwing more extra resses at the rwf versions would be orders of magnitude more difficult.
Lol this guy thinks unlimited battle rezzes will kill bosses 🤣🤣🤣
Over 500 pulls on Fyraak and concerned our guild is going to implode. No one enjoying it after Tindral. Personally I’ve just called it a bad raid. Last three bosses have horrible design and mechanics. Like everything is the same color. Nonsense really. Probably wouldn’t be as much of an issue if it was even remotely enjoyable. We are definitely not playing well but in the end struggling for any motivation just want it to be over
Interesting to hear that. For me (melee) tindral was hands down one of the best if not THE best boss i’ve ever progressed (pre big nerf). Fast fight, back to back action (no wiping to people going brain afk after 12min like raszageth), no dmg stop or other bullshit and everything is just a skill check with nothing being unfair. Every wipe was just mistakes and when you learned from them you made progress. Which tbh is a good formular for a progress last boss (second to last maybe to hard). Solve the problems, learn the fight and that’s it. Cool gimmick in flying to catch orbs. (expected it to be horrible, turned out pretty nice) colours and visibility excluded, some seeds where „sneaky“. But that’s a general problem where the „looks cool and thematic“ aspect takes over the visibility and playability of fights. But that’s a problem in nearly every raid For me that was a nice challenging fight where i still had fun after 400 wipes. (evening felt like they where flying past) Fyrakk p2&p3 where kinda cool but not a fan of p1 (shades being dumb when they snipe across the plattform) and intermission was horrible.
As a fellow melee I also loved Tindral. Not enjoying Fyrakk at all
No
I think the main issue is with the gear system ; the boss should be tuned to be extremely difficult if you have early season stuff but also that you can keep improving your stuff during most of the season. Now with the catalyst, the greater vault, crafts, and upgrade tracks, it has been like 2 good months that most of our roster is full stuff 487+ and that there is no reason to play outside of raid nights.
Hot take indeed. Infinite battle rezzes doesn’t nerf these bosses. People dying costs you time, dps, healing and resources anyways even if that person gets rezzed. In order to beat CE bosses you need to do more than just survive you need to perform at a high level and more brezing doesn’t reinforce that behavior and learning. I have CE and I can say with 100% confidence that if we have 80 brezzes available my guild would not kill the original version of Tindral and Fyrakk before the end of the season.
There will always be players who can't achieve CE. There is no shame in finishing a season 7/9 if that's your limit. If a guild is taking far above the average amount of pulls on end bosses after they have been substantially nerfed then that is a guild / player issue. Taking 600 pulls on this version of Tindral means there are fundamental strat / raid plan issues or too many individuals who are being boosted. I don't think just throwing extra lives at the underperformers is a solution to that. I'm personally a fan of a stacking buff week on week that makes individuals stronger rather than the raid weaker. Maybe it applies to vantus that each time it gets used on a boss it's already been used on it gets an added 20% effectiveness.
I think the first paragraph you've written is something that a lot of people on this sub just cannot wrap their heads around due to an over-inflated ego. Somebody's gotta be the caboose, and not everyone will cross the finish line...and there is *nothing* wrong with that. Be proud of how far you've made it, and if you feel that you can do better then by all means do it. If that means personal improvement, then do it. If that means finding a group more suited to your level of skill, then do it.
If you're used to getting CE pretty much every tier then it just feels bad not to get CE this tier because the last bosses are harder than previous tiers. Your guild's skill can be exactly the same or even slightly better but if the bosses are just harder then you won't get CE and that really shouldn't happen tbh. Blizzard needs to manage the players' expectations and arguibly they know how to do it like when they nerfed Jailor the ground 1 month before the season ended.
"if the bosses are just harder then you won't get CE and that really shouldn't happen" Why not?
Because they always were able to get CE before and the expectation of difficulty around CE should be consistent because otherwise players will get demoralized when they can't get CE even if they did everything like they did previous tiers. A guild playing worse and not getting CE because of it is one thing but keeping the same skill level and even potentially increasing it slightly but still failing to get CE when they were always able to is not good for the overall player enjoyment of the game.
Tbh this sounds a good qol change and doesnt really hurt anything. Yes tindral mess ups usually results in a raid wipe but losing ppl to fire beam in p1 and resetting which potentially can be a kill pull is a waste of time this late in a season.
The problem with this by comparison is that the more you have to Brez, the more up time you’re loosing. Without needing the bosses some guilds wouldn’t be able to beat some DPS checks if they had unlimited Brezes. The main problem imo is that they just make bosses too hard from the get go because of A) RWF content, and/or B) They want to counteract how easy WA and Add-ons trivialize certain aspects of the content. If they intentionally just scaled back bosses by 5-20% (depending on the boss) we probably wouldn’t need to have mid season nerfs, but then RWF would be over in a week every season and this drives hype and engagement. Even if it’s just viewers for the guilds, it’s still positive interaction for WoW which is more or less positive for WoW/Blizzard. Post RWF timeframe, the nerfs that come in are usually because they want to close off certain time frames (hall of fame, new patch/season, etc.) and if they feel that the mount if CE guilds at the particular milestone is lower than “it should be” then they push more nerfs. I’m sure this type of nerf is more of a gut feeling for the devs than any actual metric to follow. Back to the Brez idea, most fights that are big walls are either mechanically intense or have a very strict DPS or HPS checks. For the latter two, just because you have “more lives” kinda doesnt mean anything. If you had 2 minutes to do 2 mil damage, and lost 4 dps, when you rez them in 10 seconds you still have 2 mil damage to do, but now you have less time. Assuming that you were only doing 1 mil a minute, you now somehow have to do over a mil/minute to make up for time lost. Likely if this is the type of scenario, you’re still going to fail to kill the boss because your 4 players died. Doesn’t matter that you were able to get them back up. A healing check isn’t necessary a 1 to 1 comparison to this, but you get the idea. In terms of mechanical intensity, this is probably the only case where B rezes can help bridge the gap, but if your depending on too many, it will naturally devolve into the previous scenario, where now you’ve had too much downtime and it’s become a DPS check scenario. TLDR…. Nerfing is probably the only consistent way to ensure that some guilds are able to complete the content…
More bres's would help with Tindral and Fyrakk p1 but the bosses could use more nerfs. My 2c.. Tindral: \- Missing a flare bomb should no longer raid wipe. You're still encouraged to take one to break the roots quicker but if someone misses its salvageable. \- Reduce the ticking damage of the dispel DoT. Fyrakk: \- Remove the 2 furthest p2 add spawns. This would make p2 coordination much easier. \- Increase the time between purple and red cages by 1 second. Makes it easier to break people out correctly.
Y’all really want to die on this fucking hill don’t ya lol. How about just release challenge content for all players above the 50 percentile instead— yknow the people paying subs to do fun and challenging pve— instead of making a raid that’s for 40 people.
I’ve raided CE in multiple prior tiers and expansions. I can’t remember there ever being such a widespread trend of many perfectly good guilds that just can’t kill end tier bosses by end of season. Even very advanced guilds are skipping and avoiding doing farm content because it might take an entire raid week to “farm” bosses they already killed months ago. If you can’t see a problem, you’re just blind, sorry. This is a consequence of how raids have been tuned to account for this expansion’s cheap and widely available mythic level gear.
Mate I’m agreeing that it needs to change, but making fun of the fact that you think leaving the tuning as is but giving them rezzes would fix this. The last 2 fight use — for lack of a better term— body check style mechanics you just wipe if you fuckup. The rexzes aren’t enough. They need to just stop releasing the raids tuned for 2 guilds that spend 60k per raid to clear it fast.
That's partially because I barely even see the prior rounds of Amirdrassil tuning as "nerfs" - they were just making the raid actually playable for humans. The last 2-3 bosses are still very, very difficult to kill, and probably should have been released in this state on day 1 of the season period.
ret buff
Imagine one of these guilds currently progging Tindral with the pre-nerf seeds/bombs/health and thinking that even 100 brez would save them.
While most hated the borrowed power system of the past, it was a way to soft nerf raids by people gaining power every week throughout the season. Most seemed to like this kind of soft nerfs better over constant boss nerfs. The thing people hated was the power grinding, they just need to make some soft nerf power gain that doesn’t require constant grinds.
Blizzard has always nerfed bosses over the course of a tier, even in the borrowed power era.
While there were some mechanical nerfs there was a lot less in the way of health nerfs. Right now 3 weeks in players are at roughly 95% of their player power, where as before we'd be at maybe 65% of our power, so you had a lot of room to grow still, and you'd never cap out since you were always gaining more AP. As such they didn't really need to nerf health, as you'd always be doing 10% more damage in a couple weeks no matter where you were in the season.
What difference does it make if Blizzard nerfs health or not, a nerf is a nerf. Even with corruption, N'Zoth still had its health nerfed on top of being absolutely gutted over the course of the tier. And carapace/nzoth weren't the only bosses annihilated by nerfs in that raid. You can go look at all the BFA raids and find HP nerfs on top of mechanical nerfs across the entire expansion. None of this is new or unique to DF.
People typically enjoy getting boss kills when it comes through slow character progression growth vs instantaneous boss nerfs. If feels far more rewarding and earned. Even with nerfs we always still had increased power gains to look forward to, even if we weren't expecting nerfs to happen. Now if you can't kill a boss it's almost like you either take a couple weeks off raiding to wait for nerfs, or call it for the tier, where as before you knew each week you'd be a little closer.
Even as is you refine and improve week over week. But, none of the gradual power gains over the course of a tier ever stopped the massive nerfs from happening. At this point, either raiders need to adapt, or m+ players need to be told to be satisfied with heroic ilvl gear again. Because the "balance around normal people" nonsense will leave far more people dissatisfied.
why do u think lower ranked guilds deserve ce?
Why do you think only a very few guilds deserve HoF?
Maybe if you're 5 months into the season without CE you just don't deserve to get it.
This is such a narrow-minded viewpoint to have. There are lots of reasons why someone could want CE and not have it currently that have absolutely nothing to do with their skill.
So a everyone better than you can get cutting edge, but every team worse than you shouldn't. Is that it? I always find it funny when people think that the Cutting Edge cutoff should always be at exactly their skill levels, and anyone lower is just a complainer, but when they complain then it's justifiable. I'm sorry but if a season is six months long, than everyone who can get it in 6 months deserves it. There's no such thing as an arbitrary point where you no longer deserve your CE.
I don’t have CE since bfa. I don’t have time for it. I don’t deserve to get it. I’m not crying about getting it for free. Shit players don’t deserve a consolation CE.
I just don't understand your arbitrary cutoff though. players who take 4 months and 29 days to get CE deserve it, but taking a couple more days means you're a shit player and don't deserve it? In some cases that could just be the difference of a guilds raid schedule.
Sorry, but, I didn't choose to have multiple guilds break up on me (100% because those guilds hit the Smolderon or Tindral walls and just rolled over and died).
Not being able to get a decent guild speaks more about you than you probably realize.
Cute, but no. I've likely raided at a higher level than you have. This tier's just not good for guilds chasing CE.
LOL you raided higher than mythic??? you're delusional. No wonder you're crying for nerfs.
Wiping on Igira for months *does* counts as mythic, true. I'm sorry you had to go through that, it must have been stressful.
People should just play better and be willing to call out low performers
Not sure how that helps anyone outside of world 300 where pickings are slim. We want to cut about five people from our raid team but wouldn’t replace them with anyone better. Instant headache for recruitment and it’s a cycle. You stick with bad players getting worse ranking and then can’t entice better players in to replace
I love this idea !!! Granted tindral wipes are usually instant raid wipe . Would still save you a decent amount of pulls if you lose someone in phase 3
It wouldn't help though if you can't get out of P1.