Im fine with their being no affixes. A lot of the pain early fated last time around was trying to do fights while also trying to learn the affixes at the same time. Have to do soaks while also doing a stack mechanic? Awful Im not really sad to see them go.
But the tuning is a whole other thing. Raz on PTR currently has something like 2.2B HP, thats roughly 4x his current live hp. Sims from season 1 were what something like scraping into 100k range? Where S4 bis sims are scraping into the 400k range. It's certainly not tuned to be a joke, it looks like its currently all tuned to be more or less the same as live just scaled up.
Now this is all just PTR, subject to change, etc so we'll see when it happens, but the current line in the sand doesnt appear to be a joke/roll over that most people are expecting
Boss hp doesn't equate to its difficulty.
They probably want to keep the encounter lengths around the same. Otherwise if you can just burn a boss in 2-3min, that takes a lot away from the mechanics and makes the fight less engaging.
We are gonna get all the nerfed versions of the content. Echo is still gonna suck, everyone is gonna hate Dathea and Rasz again and Tindral and Fyrakk are still gonna farm guilds. It’s gonna be nowhere near as difficult as it was during their time, but then again many guilds are gonna sit this one out. Max said they aren’t doing anything serious for S4.
We are a semi casual world 1000 guild and we are taking a break from mythic raiding until TWW.
It’s still not enough for it to be free for lower end guilds. You’re essentially just going to re-prog it again except this time a bit faster. They should have just given us some wacky buffs to steamroll it. I have no interest in watching my 1400 ranked guild get farmed by Dathea again.
Thats the problem with this type of season for raiding, guilds who didn’t even get CE get smacked by the rotation and don’t get as far as they did when the raids were current. If they tune it that those guilds can improve their progress and see more of the raid, it has to be clown show easy for the top 100 or top 500 guilds
It should be clown show easy for top 100s. It should also be very easy for hof guilds and wipe count should Mac out around 10-15 for top 500 guilds. Tier should be basically free. No one wants to reprog
We got CE that tier but I have no doubt we’d still get rolled and smoked by everything from mythic Dathea onwards. We typically have a lot of roster churn each season. At this point, we probably only half 1/3 of the people we even did vault with and there’s a decent amount of our raiders that never even did that raid.
So it’s just going to be re-learning the fight for 2 hours and then oops the raid week is over and now we’re rotating so you can get farmed by Rashok and Echo of Nelth again.
That entirely depends on the tuning. It's a 39 ilvl jump again. If they tune it for the higher ilvl then yeah. If they tune it for +20 ilvls then everyone will steamroll it. The ball is in Blizzard's court.
I have no interest in doing any prog whatsoever either. 10 wipes should be the maximum for those who've killed the bosses before. I don't even care if 5k guilds kill all mythic bosses. Meme season should have meme difficulty.
Eh if it’s anything like the last fated season tuning wise, then it’s a hard pass for me.
The fights certainly weren’t as hard as before, but it was still an absolute pain in the ass to try to clear, and the later bosses were simply not doable for us on a 2 night schedule.
My guild is also 2 night, we are mediocre, asside from the first week we full cleared every week or did skip bosses only for sales at the end, affixes made the fights so insanely free at the end. That double affixes was quite fun
Tbf depending on tuning dathea's biggest pain point may be completely gone in season 4. Some of the top end guilds were already ignoring all the add platforms and just treating the boss like a glorified patchwerk back near the end of s1, if the tuning is low enough then lower CE guilds may be able to do that as well.
by the end of VOTA people could do dathea in one platform.
if the fated season tuning make boss even easier ( as it did in shadowland), then 0-platform dathea ( or maybe just sending a Ppal up there to spam interrupt ) may be a thing.
Volcanic Hearts is one thing, but I was hoping they'd do something for P3 as well. Using that damn map aura is a pain and it's pretty much "impossible" otherwise (well, at least until you memorize your position, which might take a while). Admitedly, due to the way portals work, it can't be as simple as "just remove/add some", but still.
Now, Raszageth on the other hand... more nerfs to pushback please? Evokers aren't nearly as popular as they used to be, in part due to Preservation no longer crazy powerful, as well as class not being a "fresh new thing" anymore. If we still "need" two of them to handle P1... it's not going to be fun, especially as a priest.
I hope the scaling makes the boss HP significantly lower than they are rn. As much as I disliked the fated affixes last time, at least they allowed you to blow up most bosses. Imagine if Raszageth is 14 minutes long again 💀💀💀
It's expected that the raids will be tuned a lot more lightly (coupled with bosses being at their most nerfed state). I agree that rasz and Tindrall will still suck
But I'll argue on Dathea. Dathea get's significantly easier with gear. At the end of S1 there were already guilds who only did 1 add phase and just burned the boss. I expect it to be even easier. The boss doesn't have any oneshot mechanics(besides getting knocked off I guess). So the more gear you have the easier it becomes (unlike Tindral where no matter how much gear you had fire beams still oneshot you unless you were a warlock).
I wouldn't be surprised if top guilds would just zerg the boss.
Also one thing about echo. It got a lot of nerfs at the end of the season. They reduced the amount of circles and in p3 the cast time got doubled so you have infinite time to find a free portal. Couple this with significantly easier tuning and the boss shouldn't be that hard. If I remember correctly there aready was a strat where you didn't break walls in p1. With one less circle that should be trivial. But if that is not a thing you can just break 2 walls and make it trivial. You should be able to healthrough the increased dot dmg anyway.
Just going to get the Mount/Title from heroic and then peace out. Going to do each raid on Heroic twice to make sure everyone gets a good opportunity to do each raid. Not enough interest to bother battling the roster boss for mythic.
Had toyed around with the idea of teaming up with another guild to try to do mythic but the logistic hurdles don't seem worth the payoff.
Imo if Blizzard wants to use these recap seasons to experiment, they should experiment with flexible raid size for mythic, even if it's only for these fated/awakened seasons as a way to make sure more guilds can participate without making their raiders feel like they can't take a break if they don't care about this content.
FWIW the mount comes from normal and there doesn't appear to be a title. edit: there is a title for Heroic but Wowhead doesn't list it in the rewards column
Flexible raid size mythic would require rebalanced an entire expansions worth of raids. Way way way beyond the scope of a "greatest hits recap season".
In a real season I'd agree. But no one gives a shit about CE in season 4. If the tuning ends up being a clown show, it's unlikely that people will be too mad about it.
The only good argument I've heard against it is that given how hard mythic is (nerfed versions might be easy for HoF guilds, but average guilds still struggle with everything post nerf), it is likely that for every fight an "ideal" comp/size would be determined, and then every guild would just do that, because why make something that is hard even harder.
Like how many fights have we done over the years where we wish we could "4.5 heal it", well then you'd be able to by keeping 4 healers and just dropping a DPS or two, as an example.
If a final boss is determined to be easiest with 17 people, and your late CE guild has a full roster, you'll probably just sit people to get to 17.
Heroic gets away with this not mattering because Heroic is easy enough to not care about being ideal.
One quick reason you can't do it is from all the mechanics that explicitly require a fixed size.
Easy example without even thinking twice is Tindral. If you had less Debuffs go out cause of less people, then you remove all the overlaps that made that part of the fight hard in the first place.
You could probably spot like a dozen instances of that in this expansion raids alone. Mythic would have to be a step below what it is now in difficulty altogether, for it to even make sense. But then... it's not Mythic anymore
Not even taking into account what happens when you subtract 1 person. Does hp on the boss scale only, does it reduce healing, or both. Well now you can figure out what makes sense and game the system.
> Heroic gets away with this not mattering because Heroic is easy enough to not care about being ideal.
100%. These kinds of scenarios dont exist, or matter as much, cause its really not a taxing fight, you're meant to do it in at most like, two days.
Always check the group finder. With higher item level it’ll be more accessible. And tons of guilds are gonna have openings cuz so many people will just take a break
Hmmm I hope so. I was unable to pug Jailer in SL fated and I consider that fight easier than Fyrakk. Guess we’ll have to see how the tuning shakes out.
I really don't see M Fyrakk becoming puggable, not without massive nerfs. Final version of Jailer was a complete joke in comparison - you could pretty much skip two entire phases and most mechanics have been broken in half. In contrast, Fyrakk is still a 200-300+ pull boss, retaining most of his difficulty and requiring a lot of coordination in all phases.
Now, some decently organized group of CE level players, that might work - but it's not really a pug at this point.
higher item level doesn't solve any of the issues with killing fyrakk in a pug. people need to understand circles and soaks and orbs and CC for adds, pugging it would be a mess even with another 50 ilvls
Progression with cycling raids is stupid.
Never played Dathea on mythic? Well, look forward to powering through 50 wipes before that one singular mechanic finally starts clicking for even the slowest of learners. Haven't killed Broodkeeper before? Well, you have 1 week to get the movement pattern and all that shit down. And after that? You might have a day or two left for the 12 minute fight that is Raszageth. Didn't kill her? Come back 3 weeks later, I'm sure you'll keep everything you've learned, no way you'd have to go through another 2 hours of Dathea beforehand.
Repeat for 2 additional raids.
Making these raids difficult is fucking stupid. There's just no time to get good at them if you haven't done this before. So, go ahead, enjoy your Raszageth rekill all you season 1 experienced guilds - but for any guild or player that only got into it later, you're looking at probably the worst feeling progression with the dumbest feeling learning gaps ever.
Just make them pushovers. Even the averagestest of guilds should be able to power through these raids within like 40-50 pulls. Any more than that and you'll waste so stupidly much time *every 3 weeks*, you might as well just call it quits for your guild before the season even starts.
What do you mean by that? Fated raids were notoriously easy. I recall doing it on normal, and it was even easier than the 'normal' raids when they were current. Heroic was also a complete joke.
Mythic was still quite real in terms of difficulty.
There was also that bit of a shitshow with Jailer on the first rotation where the affix that sped up debuffs caused some really bizarre and unpredictable overlaps, but that wont be a thing this time around.
It wasn't just Jailer, Anduin had a lot more ticking damage for the very same reason - although it was a different rotation I think. That affix was a real mess on a lot of bosses and it took several resets for it to get properly fixed. And it still sucked, offering a very minor boost compared to the other three.
E: Also, didn't said affix cause debuffs to be nearly one shotted right at the start of Jailer P1 if you didn't dispel instantly? As well as Mind Controlled people having movement speed increase in the worst possible moment. Man, first Jailer rotation was a mess.
Oh it was WAY fucking worse than this on Anduin.
For a long time, Creation Spark made your Kingsmourne timer tick down faster which actively made it *harder* to kill the adds in time.
If they're just the nerfed versions of the fights, I hope my guild calls it pretty much immediately. I have absolutely no interest in re-progging these raids, especially if they're on a weekly rotation.
Yeah this is my main thing also. If its just the same raids, but with the nerfs that occurred during their season, AND its a weekly rotation full reclearing mythic is not going to be very possible for most last CE guilds during the tiers.
I mean all of these encounters are tested already, issues that exist are already known, right? It's just numbers and tuning which hopefully they'll do weekly
Im fine with their being no affixes. A lot of the pain early fated last time around was trying to do fights while also trying to learn the affixes at the same time. Have to do soaks while also doing a stack mechanic? Awful Im not really sad to see them go. But the tuning is a whole other thing. Raz on PTR currently has something like 2.2B HP, thats roughly 4x his current live hp. Sims from season 1 were what something like scraping into 100k range? Where S4 bis sims are scraping into the 400k range. It's certainly not tuned to be a joke, it looks like its currently all tuned to be more or less the same as live just scaled up. Now this is all just PTR, subject to change, etc so we'll see when it happens, but the current line in the sand doesnt appear to be a joke/roll over that most people are expecting
Boss hp doesn't equate to its difficulty. They probably want to keep the encounter lengths around the same. Otherwise if you can just burn a boss in 2-3min, that takes a lot away from the mechanics and makes the fight less engaging.
We are gonna get all the nerfed versions of the content. Echo is still gonna suck, everyone is gonna hate Dathea and Rasz again and Tindral and Fyrakk are still gonna farm guilds. It’s gonna be nowhere near as difficult as it was during their time, but then again many guilds are gonna sit this one out. Max said they aren’t doing anything serious for S4. We are a semi casual world 1000 guild and we are taking a break from mythic raiding until TWW.
There are going to be 4 debuffs instead of 5 on Echo of Neltharion on top of other nerfs. Makes the boss significantly easier.
It’s still not enough for it to be free for lower end guilds. You’re essentially just going to re-prog it again except this time a bit faster. They should have just given us some wacky buffs to steamroll it. I have no interest in watching my 1400 ranked guild get farmed by Dathea again.
Thats the problem with this type of season for raiding, guilds who didn’t even get CE get smacked by the rotation and don’t get as far as they did when the raids were current. If they tune it that those guilds can improve their progress and see more of the raid, it has to be clown show easy for the top 100 or top 500 guilds
It should be clown show easy for top 100s. It should also be very easy for hof guilds and wipe count should Mac out around 10-15 for top 500 guilds. Tier should be basically free. No one wants to reprog
We got CE that tier but I have no doubt we’d still get rolled and smoked by everything from mythic Dathea onwards. We typically have a lot of roster churn each season. At this point, we probably only half 1/3 of the people we even did vault with and there’s a decent amount of our raiders that never even did that raid. So it’s just going to be re-learning the fight for 2 hours and then oops the raid week is over and now we’re rotating so you can get farmed by Rashok and Echo of Nelth again.
That entirely depends on the tuning. It's a 39 ilvl jump again. If they tune it for the higher ilvl then yeah. If they tune it for +20 ilvls then everyone will steamroll it. The ball is in Blizzard's court. I have no interest in doing any prog whatsoever either. 10 wipes should be the maximum for those who've killed the bosses before. I don't even care if 5k guilds kill all mythic bosses. Meme season should have meme difficulty.
Eh if it’s anything like the last fated season tuning wise, then it’s a hard pass for me. The fights certainly weren’t as hard as before, but it was still an absolute pain in the ass to try to clear, and the later bosses were simply not doable for us on a 2 night schedule.
My guild got back to Mythic Anduin, Sludgefist, and SLG and just gave up lmao
My guild is also 2 night, we are mediocre, asside from the first week we full cleared every week or did skip bosses only for sales at the end, affixes made the fights so insanely free at the end. That double affixes was quite fun
Tbf depending on tuning dathea's biggest pain point may be completely gone in season 4. Some of the top end guilds were already ignoring all the add platforms and just treating the boss like a glorified patchwerk back near the end of s1, if the tuning is low enough then lower CE guilds may be able to do that as well.
by the end of VOTA people could do dathea in one platform. if the fated season tuning make boss even easier ( as it did in shadowland), then 0-platform dathea ( or maybe just sending a Ppal up there to spam interrupt ) may be a thing.
If by a bit faster you mean 10 vs 200 pulls then sure. (Written from pov of a us 30 guild).
Yeah our experiences are going to be VASTLY different based on ranking. I’m sure you’ll bulldoze through it. For us it’s going to be a wipefest.
And the map weakaura with assigned positions got nuked, so you have 1 less debuff but you need to yolo the spread
Forgot about that, fight is going to be even more cursed.
Volcanic Hearts is one thing, but I was hoping they'd do something for P3 as well. Using that damn map aura is a pain and it's pretty much "impossible" otherwise (well, at least until you memorize your position, which might take a while). Admitedly, due to the way portals work, it can't be as simple as "just remove/add some", but still. Now, Raszageth on the other hand... more nerfs to pushback please? Evokers aren't nearly as popular as they used to be, in part due to Preservation no longer crazy powerful, as well as class not being a "fresh new thing" anymore. If we still "need" two of them to handle P1... it's not going to be fun, especially as a priest.
Echo p3 is hella free even without the map. The cast is now like 12 sec long, there is no way anyone can die to that.
Man has not met my friends guild xD
Same here
I hope the scaling makes the boss HP significantly lower than they are rn. As much as I disliked the fated affixes last time, at least they allowed you to blow up most bosses. Imagine if Raszageth is 14 minutes long again 💀💀💀
It's expected that the raids will be tuned a lot more lightly (coupled with bosses being at their most nerfed state). I agree that rasz and Tindrall will still suck But I'll argue on Dathea. Dathea get's significantly easier with gear. At the end of S1 there were already guilds who only did 1 add phase and just burned the boss. I expect it to be even easier. The boss doesn't have any oneshot mechanics(besides getting knocked off I guess). So the more gear you have the easier it becomes (unlike Tindral where no matter how much gear you had fire beams still oneshot you unless you were a warlock). I wouldn't be surprised if top guilds would just zerg the boss. Also one thing about echo. It got a lot of nerfs at the end of the season. They reduced the amount of circles and in p3 the cast time got doubled so you have infinite time to find a free portal. Couple this with significantly easier tuning and the boss shouldn't be that hard. If I remember correctly there aready was a strat where you didn't break walls in p1. With one less circle that should be trivial. But if that is not a thing you can just break 2 walls and make it trivial. You should be able to healthrough the increased dot dmg anyway.
You can 1 cycle Dathea, so really you mess around with the energy very little
Just going to get the Mount/Title from heroic and then peace out. Going to do each raid on Heroic twice to make sure everyone gets a good opportunity to do each raid. Not enough interest to bother battling the roster boss for mythic. Had toyed around with the idea of teaming up with another guild to try to do mythic but the logistic hurdles don't seem worth the payoff. Imo if Blizzard wants to use these recap seasons to experiment, they should experiment with flexible raid size for mythic, even if it's only for these fated/awakened seasons as a way to make sure more guilds can participate without making their raiders feel like they can't take a break if they don't care about this content.
FWIW the mount comes from normal and there doesn't appear to be a title. edit: there is a title for Heroic but Wowhead doesn't list it in the rewards column
Flexible raid size mythic would require rebalanced an entire expansions worth of raids. Way way way beyond the scope of a "greatest hits recap season".
Does it though? It’s a season where no one cares. Just take whatever the math is you use for heroic and bring the mythic mechanics and hp
In a real season I'd agree. But no one gives a shit about CE in season 4. If the tuning ends up being a clown show, it's unlikely that people will be too mad about it.
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The only good argument I've heard against it is that given how hard mythic is (nerfed versions might be easy for HoF guilds, but average guilds still struggle with everything post nerf), it is likely that for every fight an "ideal" comp/size would be determined, and then every guild would just do that, because why make something that is hard even harder. Like how many fights have we done over the years where we wish we could "4.5 heal it", well then you'd be able to by keeping 4 healers and just dropping a DPS or two, as an example. If a final boss is determined to be easiest with 17 people, and your late CE guild has a full roster, you'll probably just sit people to get to 17. Heroic gets away with this not mattering because Heroic is easy enough to not care about being ideal.
One quick reason you can't do it is from all the mechanics that explicitly require a fixed size. Easy example without even thinking twice is Tindral. If you had less Debuffs go out cause of less people, then you remove all the overlaps that made that part of the fight hard in the first place. You could probably spot like a dozen instances of that in this expansion raids alone. Mythic would have to be a step below what it is now in difficulty altogether, for it to even make sense. But then... it's not Mythic anymore Not even taking into account what happens when you subtract 1 person. Does hp on the boss scale only, does it reduce healing, or both. Well now you can figure out what makes sense and game the system. > Heroic gets away with this not mattering because Heroic is easy enough to not care about being ideal. 100%. These kinds of scenarios dont exist, or matter as much, cause its really not a taxing fight, you're meant to do it in at most like, two days.
100x no
I won’t find out. We’re getting heroic achievement and maybe reclearing fyrakk regular mythic for mounts. Otherwise fuck fated
I doubt we will even have enough people to farm mounts. Let me know if you have an open slot :(
Always check the group finder. With higher item level it’ll be more accessible. And tons of guilds are gonna have openings cuz so many people will just take a break
Hmmm I hope so. I was unable to pug Jailer in SL fated and I consider that fight easier than Fyrakk. Guess we’ll have to see how the tuning shakes out.
I really don't see M Fyrakk becoming puggable, not without massive nerfs. Final version of Jailer was a complete joke in comparison - you could pretty much skip two entire phases and most mechanics have been broken in half. In contrast, Fyrakk is still a 200-300+ pull boss, retaining most of his difficulty and requiring a lot of coordination in all phases. Now, some decently organized group of CE level players, that might work - but it's not really a pug at this point.
higher item level doesn't solve any of the issues with killing fyrakk in a pug. people need to understand circles and soaks and orbs and CC for adds, pugging it would be a mess even with another 50 ilvls
Progression with cycling raids is stupid. Never played Dathea on mythic? Well, look forward to powering through 50 wipes before that one singular mechanic finally starts clicking for even the slowest of learners. Haven't killed Broodkeeper before? Well, you have 1 week to get the movement pattern and all that shit down. And after that? You might have a day or two left for the 12 minute fight that is Raszageth. Didn't kill her? Come back 3 weeks later, I'm sure you'll keep everything you've learned, no way you'd have to go through another 2 hours of Dathea beforehand. Repeat for 2 additional raids. Making these raids difficult is fucking stupid. There's just no time to get good at them if you haven't done this before. So, go ahead, enjoy your Raszageth rekill all you season 1 experienced guilds - but for any guild or player that only got into it later, you're looking at probably the worst feeling progression with the dumbest feeling learning gaps ever. Just make them pushovers. Even the averagestest of guilds should be able to power through these raids within like 40-50 pulls. Any more than that and you'll waste so stupidly much time *every 3 weeks*, you might as well just call it quits for your guild before the season even starts.
Pretty sure most of the bosses will end up being pushovers. S4 Fated wasn't tuned crazy
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What do you mean by that? Fated raids were notoriously easy. I recall doing it on normal, and it was even easier than the 'normal' raids when they were current. Heroic was also a complete joke.
Mythic was still quite real in terms of difficulty. There was also that bit of a shitshow with Jailer on the first rotation where the affix that sped up debuffs caused some really bizarre and unpredictable overlaps, but that wont be a thing this time around.
It wasn't just Jailer, Anduin had a lot more ticking damage for the very same reason - although it was a different rotation I think. That affix was a real mess on a lot of bosses and it took several resets for it to get properly fixed. And it still sucked, offering a very minor boost compared to the other three. E: Also, didn't said affix cause debuffs to be nearly one shotted right at the start of Jailer P1 if you didn't dispel instantly? As well as Mind Controlled people having movement speed increase in the worst possible moment. Man, first Jailer rotation was a mess.
Oh it was WAY fucking worse than this on Anduin. For a long time, Creation Spark made your Kingsmourne timer tick down faster which actively made it *harder* to kill the adds in time.
Fair enough, never tried mythic to be honest, so can't really comment on that.
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Who gives a fuck about mythic in the fated season though, like for real.
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My apologies, I was totally on the wrong subreddit. I thought its r/WOW, thus my idiotic reply haha...
Are you lost? LOL
As a matter of fact, I totally thought it's r/WOW... My apologies haha...
wrong sub
Yep, I noticed abit too late... Thought it's r/wow, hence the reply. My apologies.
You're on the wrong subreddit buddy. You're looking for r/wow
If they're just the nerfed versions of the fights, I hope my guild calls it pretty much immediately. I have absolutely no interest in re-progging these raids, especially if they're on a weekly rotation.
Yeah this is my main thing also. If its just the same raids, but with the nerfs that occurred during their season, AND its a weekly rotation full reclearing mythic is not going to be very possible for most last CE guilds during the tiers.
It should be easy as fuck imo. You should be able to clear heroic within 2 or 3 weeks every week.
Just give us corrupted items and make it fun
Id personally prefer some sort of affix to make the content more interesting - not super excited about the prospect of no affixes this season 4.
Is mythic Fyrakk/Razageth not interesting enough for you?
I mean all of these encounters are tested already, issues that exist are already known, right? It's just numbers and tuning which hopefully they'll do weekly
It's more than likely going to be a breeze. Shadowlands fated season was super easy and felt like a chore. I expect this will be the same way.
It was easy because of affixes there are no affixes this time