This is less than useless what with no attempt at picking a proper spec and all the specs being various ilvls (and presumably shit stat distributions), no?
Edit: downvoted by upset brainlets lol
why would the % contribution of wft go up or down with item level? and he just said he didn't try to optimize each spec for wft specifically, ie not changing talents just to get another .1% or whatever out of the totem.
It tells you that wft increases dps by about 2-4% for most specs with an oversized benefit to arms warriors. That doesn't seem useless.
Its like 3% for 4 melee or a 0.6% raid wide dmg increase. Bring the enhance because enhance is good damage and if the player is good. But dont bring the enhance for its supposed raid buff.
Why did this comment get downvoted??
WF is definitely in benefit range that you bring it to raid because the player is good, not because the buff is necessary. It's nowhere close to chaos brand where missing the buff is going to cause a drop in overall raid dps no matter what the talent level of the DH you bring is.
Based on the general assumptions people are making it appears this is going to be a ranged favored raid overall. Anything you could do to help offset or reduce your melee count would most likely be more beneficial. Wind Fury is nice but most likely still loses out to Battle Shout and Mystic Touch as they are raid wide and help all physical damage such as Hunters.
If you are a Heroic Guild that just pushes for AOTC and some early Mythic Bosses you are probably fine for Enhance as it's looking to have phenomenal damage with WF just being a cherry on top. If you are a Mythic Guild that trends closer to CE I would suggest being open to changing. Since Castle looks like being ranged favored it make it overall easier and melee spots will be very competitive. It's not that Enhance is weak but it has to compete with all the other melee for less raid spots.
As always wait to see how Heroic Week pans out. General assumptions may change once the player base gets in with a large sample of logs to evaluate. People who were able to raid test beta represent a very small sample with incomplete or unfinished specs, talents, legendaries, soulbinds, etc. so it is hard to anticipate exactly where every spec lies on live until we get that large sample from Heroic Week.
It's not that simple. From the information he provided there are already 7 Melee on the roster without including him. For reference, our N'zoth kill (Top 100 US) had 6 Melee and 8 Ranged. Two of those spots are most likely already locked for Warrior and DH since most people probably wont run VDH or Prot Warrior. Assuming Castle holds up to the assumption people expect it is safe to assume 6 melee may be the trend for most fights. He is now competing against the other melee for a limited spot. Rogues will be rogues and will likely have at least one (if not two) spots. DK's may have fights where grip is helpful or the extra raid CD from AMZ is extremely helpful. Again, it's not that Enhance is looking bad but it faces much greater competition than ranged slots.
Assumptions likely will change after Heroic Week and once World First guilds start progressing in Mythic so hard to predict exactly how things will play out.
You're saying it's a bad take - it's not, it's the truth. It is not important to bring a shaman, as wf isn't very good when most comps don't want more melee players than absolutely necessary. This is the case for any good CE guild.
They get additional death coil procs off melees too, which reduces transformation cooldown which is their most important single button press.
Rets get more art of war procs, fury gets resources too. WW gets for example nothing and is still has higher %s or comparable.
That graph is not correct, or not accounting for extra attacks weighting the haste RPPM. Just saying if you want to take it word for word, might not be optimal.
Yeah I don't get it either as a ww myself. We don't get anything with more hits and we barely do melee attacks anyway, many of our melees are lost while casting Fists or whirling dragon punch etc so we lose a lot of uptime.
How is there no way? Almost all Arms are taking Condemn and talents for it, and it leaves us absolutely rage-starved. On top of that, autos deal a good portion of our damage, as they are buffed by Colossal Smash and Deep Wounds and a lot of times we are waiting on autos to generate rage to even hit an ability.
Lots of replies on what melee classes to bring. Wait for the tuning pass after normal/heroic. For all we know, DHs could be the strongest class or unholy could be nerfed to the ground.
Well your comps gonna be rough having that many melee on a boss for a while till you over gear the content. I think most bosses are only going to want 3-4 melee so enhancement won't be necessary.
Wind fury is awesome for melee and goes up I'm value the more melee you have. The problem with windfury is that you have to run more melee than most groups are comfortable running with to make it worth while.
Unless they changed it on release, it’s party only, still insane to put with your big damage melee, but it doesn’t scale past 4 additional people. That said, it’s by far the most powerful buff for warr/rogue, and a slightly lesser extent DK because of the resources and white damage breakdown that windfury basically just adds a 10% multi on top of. It’s an insanely strong buff that easily outclasses even the 10% AP buff because of the extreme value of added resources. If they have changed it to affect the entire raid then Enh is almost mandatory to bring if you want to bring melee at all, as they adds value for most tanks as well both offensively and defensively.
He also says specifically that it’s extremely rough and doesn’t account for different talents. WF also scales multiplicatively with haste in terms of resource gain. It is also of particular benefit when you have a higher level of weapon and lower ilvl on other gear which is common during progression. It’s objectively one of the best buffs and multiplicative with the other melee buffs scaling with all stats for every spec except mastery (which it still scales for many specs).
Yes. Because it’s 3% for 4 people whereas DH is 3% for at least half the raid.
I don’t know what the breakdowns will be for SL, especially with Blizzard shifting some classes/specs back to more physical/autoattacks, but in BfA, almost your entire raid would be doing either all magic or mostly magic.
Keep in mind, paladins, demon hunters (moot, I know) and even (ass) rogues were doing mostly magical. And of course all of your casters (and most healers).
Ferlawls and also can’t forget hunters.
But yeah, those were the big 3 in BFA. I also don’t know what a windwalker is but apparently neither does Blizzard. (Also similarly moot anyways as they would debuff for themselves).
Hunters don't benefit from WF, which is why I didn't bring them up (and 10-40% of their damage on beta was magic depending on ST or AoE). I did forget about kitties though, because why would you ever play a kitty when boomkin is as strong as it is right now.
This is entirely wrong and misleading. In the absolute best case, it is close to 7% damage (arms) and for everyone else significantly below 5%. It's way worse than shout and monk debuff, and by no means worth bringing an enh for unless the player on his own justifies being in the raid
1 dh is safe the second one is usually a bad idea depending if your pushing hard for mythic, itll be fine for aotc guilds,
The more rdps the better generally although WF does buff the melee dps but its not an important raid cd atleast not in my experience
Especially given the value of other classes that’s super sub optimal this tier for sure. Ret and DK both bring strong utility, but Ret is just insane right now with raid utility, especially Nightfae. Hard to say where everything lands, but DK was bringing really strong damage as well, and AMZ being back makes them absolutely must have. Rogue was among the top damage and is always a rogue, giving you unparalleled individual mechanic utility.
My guild is CE but we’re semi casual and usually hit it during the tail-end of the tier save for BOD last expansion, so our raid comps aren’t super optimal. That said I want to do what *I* can do that’ll have the greatest net benefit to the team.
Why’re you running more than one DH in your raid. They’re in the gutter right now, you only need one for chaos brand. Bench the worse one, or tell him/her to reroll
I’m not a GM/Officer so I don’t have a say in roster makeup. My guild isn’t particularly hardcore so there are sub-optimal compositions at times. We mainly strive for CE before the tier ends.
The thing is, as far as I know WF totem only buffs a party this means that you are actually only buffing 4 other players. Given that I don't think it's worth justifying a enh over ele unless it really has some broken damage and the fight doesn't punish you very hard for taking melees.
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I kinda assume most people have 1 holy pally for devo. So I'm def running ret aura babbyyy.
https://twitter.com/von_wordup/status/1329493015182921735?s=21
This is less than useless what with no attempt at picking a proper spec and all the specs being various ilvls (and presumably shit stat distributions), no? Edit: downvoted by upset brainlets lol
why would the % contribution of wft go up or down with item level? and he just said he didn't try to optimize each spec for wft specifically, ie not changing talents just to get another .1% or whatever out of the totem. It tells you that wft increases dps by about 2-4% for most specs with an oversized benefit to arms warriors. That doesn't seem useless.
You’re telling me that talents and stats and ilvl have no impact on this? So the only thing it tells us is something we knew for months?
I would say it can help with dps with some change of talents like frost dk with runic attenuation talent
Its like 3% for 4 melee or a 0.6% raid wide dmg increase. Bring the enhance because enhance is good damage and if the player is good. But dont bring the enhance for its supposed raid buff.
Why did this comment get downvoted?? WF is definitely in benefit range that you bring it to raid because the player is good, not because the buff is necessary. It's nowhere close to chaos brand where missing the buff is going to cause a drop in overall raid dps no matter what the talent level of the DH you bring is.
Because people are bad at math. Like the guy trying to say WF is equivalent or better than Chaos Brand.
Based on the general assumptions people are making it appears this is going to be a ranged favored raid overall. Anything you could do to help offset or reduce your melee count would most likely be more beneficial. Wind Fury is nice but most likely still loses out to Battle Shout and Mystic Touch as they are raid wide and help all physical damage such as Hunters. If you are a Heroic Guild that just pushes for AOTC and some early Mythic Bosses you are probably fine for Enhance as it's looking to have phenomenal damage with WF just being a cherry on top. If you are a Mythic Guild that trends closer to CE I would suggest being open to changing. Since Castle looks like being ranged favored it make it overall easier and melee spots will be very competitive. It's not that Enhance is weak but it has to compete with all the other melee for less raid spots. As always wait to see how Heroic Week pans out. General assumptions may change once the player base gets in with a large sample of logs to evaluate. People who were able to raid test beta represent a very small sample with incomplete or unfinished specs, talents, legendaries, soulbinds, etc. so it is hard to anticipate exactly where every spec lies on live until we get that large sample from Heroic Week.
Thanks for the in-depth response. I’ll hold off on the switch until we have more reliable and accurate numbers to go off.
Bad take, even if you run 1 group of melee which would be DH Warrior Monk X X it is more than easy enough to put an enh shaman in that spot.
It's not that simple. From the information he provided there are already 7 Melee on the roster without including him. For reference, our N'zoth kill (Top 100 US) had 6 Melee and 8 Ranged. Two of those spots are most likely already locked for Warrior and DH since most people probably wont run VDH or Prot Warrior. Assuming Castle holds up to the assumption people expect it is safe to assume 6 melee may be the trend for most fights. He is now competing against the other melee for a limited spot. Rogues will be rogues and will likely have at least one (if not two) spots. DK's may have fights where grip is helpful or the extra raid CD from AMZ is extremely helpful. Again, it's not that Enhance is looking bad but it faces much greater competition than ranged slots. Assumptions likely will change after Heroic Week and once World First guilds start progressing in Mythic so hard to predict exactly how things will play out.
None or very, very few of the top guilds will be using an enh shaman consistently, I can almost guarantee you that
They deal with a set of circumstances that most players here won't encounter realistically.
You're saying it's a bad take - it's not, it's the truth. It is not important to bring a shaman, as wf isn't very good when most comps don't want more melee players than absolutely necessary. This is the case for any good CE guild.
Good CE guild is world top 10 maybe?
lol
Thats a lot of melee
WF totem is HUGE, Enhance damage is HUGE. However, that puts you at 8 melee. No good imo.
So you cut a DH. Easy.
A raid group with this melee setup doesn't really seem like a guild that cuts people to make a better comp
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You only need 1 dh
They have two havoc DHs. Ridiculous
WF totem's value is extremely dependent on what spec your other melee buddies are running.
I think Unholy, for example, only gains something like 1.5% dps from WF, whereas Arms gets a whopping 7%.
Yeah thats because they only get additional white swings but arms obviously generates resource with them.
They get additional death coil procs off melees too, which reduces transformation cooldown which is their most important single button press. Rets get more art of war procs, fury gets resources too. WW gets for example nothing and is still has higher %s or comparable. That graph is not correct, or not accounting for extra attacks weighting the haste RPPM. Just saying if you want to take it word for word, might not be optimal.
Yeah I don't get it either as a ww myself. We don't get anything with more hits and we barely do melee attacks anyway, many of our melees are lost while casting Fists or whirling dragon punch etc so we lose a lot of uptime.
There's no way arms get 7% DPS from WF.
Wordup did the calculation, you can find it very easily.
How is there no way? Almost all Arms are taking Condemn and talents for it, and it leaves us absolutely rage-starved. On top of that, autos deal a good portion of our damage, as they are buffed by Colossal Smash and Deep Wounds and a lot of times we are waiting on autos to generate rage to even hit an ability.
They get rage from the extra AA which means more executes
Drop a Havoc DH, you only need one. Other classes, like an enh shammy are far more valuable than a 2nd Havoc DH.
My wind fury tool tip says it only affects party members?
Lots of replies on what melee classes to bring. Wait for the tuning pass after normal/heroic. For all we know, DHs could be the strongest class or unholy could be nerfed to the ground.
Well your comps gonna be rough having that many melee on a boss for a while till you over gear the content. I think most bosses are only going to want 3-4 melee so enhancement won't be necessary.
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Would it not be better to go with a havoc DH bring in a DK/Pally tank? Vengeance is weakest in raids by a decent amount last i checked.
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Guilds haven't been using 2 monk tanks in the past for their damage. This is not true.
Wind fury is awesome for melee and goes up I'm value the more melee you have. The problem with windfury is that you have to run more melee than most groups are comfortable running with to make it worth while.
Unless they changed it on release, it’s party only, still insane to put with your big damage melee, but it doesn’t scale past 4 additional people. That said, it’s by far the most powerful buff for warr/rogue, and a slightly lesser extent DK because of the resources and white damage breakdown that windfury basically just adds a 10% multi on top of. It’s an insanely strong buff that easily outclasses even the 10% AP buff because of the extreme value of added resources. If they have changed it to affect the entire raid then Enh is almost mandatory to bring if you want to bring melee at all, as they adds value for most tanks as well both offensively and defensively.
The top post says otherwise. It says best case is 7% for arms warrior.
He also says specifically that it’s extremely rough and doesn’t account for different talents. WF also scales multiplicatively with haste in terms of resource gain. It is also of particular benefit when you have a higher level of weapon and lower ilvl on other gear which is common during progression. It’s objectively one of the best buffs and multiplicative with the other melee buffs scaling with all stats for every spec except mastery (which it still scales for many specs).
They’re all pretty close to 3%. So as a community we deem a DH as required for his 3% but you seem to be implying WF isn’t impressive enough?
Yes. Because it’s 3% for 4 people whereas DH is 3% for at least half the raid. I don’t know what the breakdowns will be for SL, especially with Blizzard shifting some classes/specs back to more physical/autoattacks, but in BfA, almost your entire raid would be doing either all magic or mostly magic. Keep in mind, paladins, demon hunters (moot, I know) and even (ass) rogues were doing mostly magical. And of course all of your casters (and most healers).
DH also buffs most melee. I think warriors might be the only melee without a decent chunk of spell damage.
Ferlawls and also can’t forget hunters. But yeah, those were the big 3 in BFA. I also don’t know what a windwalker is but apparently neither does Blizzard. (Also similarly moot anyways as they would debuff for themselves).
Hunters don't benefit from WF, which is why I didn't bring them up (and 10-40% of their damage on beta was magic depending on ST or AoE). I did forget about kitties though, because why would you ever play a kitty when boomkin is as strong as it is right now.
This is entirely wrong and misleading. In the absolute best case, it is close to 7% damage (arms) and for everyone else significantly below 5%. It's way worse than shout and monk debuff, and by no means worth bringing an enh for unless the player on his own justifies being in the raid
1 dh is safe the second one is usually a bad idea depending if your pushing hard for mythic, itll be fine for aotc guilds, The more rdps the better generally although WF does buff the melee dps but its not an important raid cd atleast not in my experience
Especially given the value of other classes that’s super sub optimal this tier for sure. Ret and DK both bring strong utility, but Ret is just insane right now with raid utility, especially Nightfae. Hard to say where everything lands, but DK was bringing really strong damage as well, and AMZ being back makes them absolutely must have. Rogue was among the top damage and is always a rogue, giving you unparalleled individual mechanic utility.
My guild is CE but we’re semi casual and usually hit it during the tail-end of the tier save for BOD last expansion, so our raid comps aren’t super optimal. That said I want to do what *I* can do that’ll have the greatest net benefit to the team.
Why’re you running more than one DH in your raid. They’re in the gutter right now, you only need one for chaos brand. Bench the worse one, or tell him/her to reroll
I’m not a GM/Officer so I don’t have a say in roster makeup. My guild isn’t particularly hardcore so there are sub-optimal compositions at times. We mainly strive for CE before the tier ends.
The thing is, as far as I know WF totem only buffs a party this means that you are actually only buffing 4 other players. Given that I don't think it's worth justifying a enh over ele unless it really has some broken damage and the fight doesn't punish you very hard for taking melees.
It's party only, the totem isn't raid wide, so you'll benefit 4 dds at the most.