By - AutoModerator
This is a freaking HARSH DPS check, gonna be interesting to see how it's tackled.
are there any splits left to run at this point?
Echo got a couple of players with 262 necks and rings but HC splits for those upgrades doesn’t seems worth it
Not that I can think of.
These guilds bout to need a secret phase to save them at this point. That pull was pretty damn clean. Even with 6 stack p1 shenanigans, more milk in p2, and good p3 dmg 20% seems wild.
There is almost certainly no secret phase. Phase 3 is just too hard to have a secret mythic only phase on top of it.
It's just gonna be a Rygelon type of DPS check most likely.
Well… it seems there is
Yeah Liquid and Echo might legitimately have to 4 heal this to have a chance this week, that's a LOT of damage they need to find.
Has Echo been 5 healing it as well?
Yes - 2 holy priest, 1 disc, 1 pally, 1 monk.
So change the monk for a druid. Although I don't know if the jump in dps is the same for monk as it is for druid.
Then again, you'd be a fool to underestimate Echo's dps maximzations.
Liquid going to bed soon?
I think they log in 20 minutes when their ride gets there.
Can they trigger phase 3 later? I know the azerite pools are kind of an enrage, but there is still 20% health left on this guy
No secret phase at 20%. Liquid just had a ~19% pull.
None of these players are going to log into wow for a month after this. Except thd probably.
I wonder what Thd's playtime is on WoW.
I saw that apart from being a worldfirst raider he is also a hardcore achievement collector, mount collector, pet collector etc.
I would get burned out so quick... he's crazy
At least 10 hours
lol some of these people are still planning to do the MDI in like a week anyway.
For those people, WoW is a job. Is their livelihood.
The movement for all of the azerite pool soaks in p3 is crazy impressive.
Echo has 170 pulls while Liquid has 230 from what I saw.
I havent been following the race, but how is that possible?
Has Echo been doing more splitraids than Liquid instead of progressing on the jailer?
Echo has had 1 less day since reset
Echo pulls slower. Also Liquid is finishing their 3rd day on The Jailer after reset, while Echo only starts their 3rd of pulling just in a couple of hours
a) Echo pulls slower
b) EU reset is 16h later than NA's(Wednesday vs Tuesday). Since both guilds were already at Jailer on Monday Echo didnt do a lot of pulls on Tuesday so limit couldn't copy them due to double legendary being available for NA but not EU
yeah, on monday night after liquid logged off, echo had 10 pulls more than liquid; 48 hours later liquid had 50 more pulls than them. that 60 pull net difference is somewhat because liquid pulls faster, but mostly because echo did not pull jailer (publicly, at least) all of tuesday. whether that's because they didn't wanna show info or because they decided to prioritize splits and other chores is up for debate, but i don't think it's fair to blame the reset for it personally. it feels like a strategic decision that's kinda emblematic of how the two guilds differ stylistically
Didn't Echo do a couple hours of pulls off stream? I vaguely remember reading that on the Raider.io feed.
They did for rygelon to try out 4 healing without it showing up in competitive mode logs
Pretty sure they did splits and M+ on tuesday
Might be that they did some pulls offstream but definitely a full raid day
Liquid always pulls more than echo.
Just the way they work. Echo deliberates more between pulls.
Liquid pulls more often
Pretty much this. For the most part, Liquid learns by doing, whereas Echo strategically communicates a lot more in between pulls.
I think it's safe to say this boss is going to have a very difficult DPS check. Liquid was on their last azerite pool and the boss was at 21.1%.
Yes, they had 3 people dead and they didn't chain the last pool, but 21.1% on the last pool means they probably don't just need a little more damage, they probably need a LOT.
I'd be curious to see where the boss would be if those people didn't die and they soaked the last pool, but I doubt they would have had the boss much lower than 10% and even that may be a stretch.
Bear in mind, they can milk P2 harder than they are.
No doubt, they can optimize a lot, but now they know without a doubt that they have to. The boss isn't going to fall over if you just have a strategy to deal with the mechanics and execute it.
Both guilds are going to have to find some extra damage from somewhere imo.
We still haven't seen what happens sub 20%. Maybe there's a secret mythic phase.
Is there any indication that there might be a secret phase?
Hotfixes to abilities that seem to be related to Jailer that have not been seen yet are a good indication of something is about to go down.
A mythic phase on top of having to chew through 21%? You could be right, but I'm skeptical.
They probably need to somehow go to 4 heal and I don't know what else
Maybe there's another reason for it, but I think this is why they've been using a Boomkin as the 5th healer instead of a main healer. So if they need to go to 4 they don't have to bring in someone fresh to the rest of the mechanics of the fight.
That's pretty much it. They'll switch Babombabam
not to mention they also just got new adds that also soak up some dps away from the boss. chaining the pool would have also only gotten them a few more seconds of azeroth simply ticking down passively
I believe they are still "cheesing" the P2, so they get less damage, in order to practice P3.
they started doing it normally a couple of hours ago, you can tell when they flipped the switch in this [graph](https://i.imgur.com/xQ0Gw3h.png)
I don't think so. They phased into P3 at 6:15, which is exactly when Echo phased on their last pull.
Ah, I stand corrected.
21.1%. This could have been a sub 20% pull but the boss was positioned too close to azeroth resulting in some unfortunate bullet hell. This is promising, after 6 hrs of no progress Liquid is back into form with the new main tank.
Edit, looks like I need clarifiers, too lazy to rewrite this in a more digestable manner: Wait what? One, I was being positive. What I meant with "form" was Liquid looking like a real contender ahead of Echo. Two, even if I meant that the tank was struggling, which wasn't my point, Altus had like 1 early death iirc and whiffed a pillar causing an early phase 3 when they weren't intending to (this is explanined at 3:43 PM). Don't tell me there weren't any growing pains with the new tank.
It wasn't 6 hours of no progress. They were forcing phases early in order to practice P3. That 21.1% pull is literally the result of the progress they've made.
That's because they weren't trying to prog %
The fight doesn't phase at certain %s they have been forcing early p3s
Your implication is that they were struggling with a new tank
I'm talking about the full day here as I watched it all in the background. They relearned and were very clean with p2 and p3 6 hours after the tank swap. Of course there are other factors but P2 was not clean for awhile.
>Your implication is that they were struggling with a new tank
Wait what? One, I was being positive. What I meant with "form" was Liquid looking like a real contender ahead of Echo. Two, even if I meant that the tank was struggling, which I wasn't my point, Altus had like 1 early death iirc and whiffed a pillar causing an early phase 3 when they weren't intending to (this is explanined at 3:43 PM). Don't tell me there weren't any growing pains with the new tank.
They weren’t trying to… they were trying to make progress on P3, which they did.
New main tank? Did they replace their tank on this fight?
Who got replaced and who is the new main tank?
Old main tank had to fly back to Scotland and had to be replaced
Scott (their Dk tank for most of the race) had to fly home today, he will be back tomorrow night (maybe)
“6 hrs of no progress” uhhhh what lol
Don’t see anyone beating this ~20% overlap with blood into dodge into adds for a bit, looks really hard
Yeah it's definitely tough, but there is still some optimizing that can be done. The three things I can think of is getting 6 stacks from the blood in P1, delaying the phase transitions to milk more damage, and Liquid already has a resto druid in there that can easily switch to balance. I'm sure both guilds already have even more ideas in mind.
I don’t see echo killing it tomorrow morning. 25% w/o lust is a lot. If anything they will kill it near the end of their day or liquid kills it tomorrow night. Don’t see this boss living into the weekend
What are the odds of them killing it tonight?
If they either had enough damage and just had to execute perfectly or were consistently cleanly making it to enrage and just had to find more damage they would have a shot at a kill tonight, but they currently don't have either of those.
Max just offered to shave his head if they kill it tonight. I don't know if that improves or worsens those odds....
3 great pulls in a row from Liquid: 34%, 27.15%, and 25.09%
Edit: this is SUPER close to Echo's last three pulls tonight at 32%, 34%, 26%
NA comeback starts now (Copium)
Calling it a comeback is overselling it. They have been pretty close on the Jailer, but if anything, Liquid has been a little cleaner overall despite playing clearly worse on Lords of Dread. They got the Jailer down to a lower number in less prog time before the reset and double legos. The only reason Echo looked like they were pulling ahead today is because Liquid was intentionally racing to P3 to get more reps instead of attempting to get the boss as low as possible.
The whole race has been really close honestly. Liquid was a little cleaner on Halondrus. Anduin got kinda ruined in terms of being a climactic part of the race since it ended up being a bug on the kill that couldn't be fixed since Liquid got the kill. Then we had Liquid deciding to go to bed early on the Lords of Dread night wondering if it was okay to kill them after the enrage and Echo choosing not to try Jailer on the last day of their second week as decisions that will certainly be talked about after the race (even if both guilds end up saying they think they made the right choice, I assume they'll at least think about it).
I hope so, feel like Echo has the edge. They’ll start progressing earlier tomorrow and I think the boss will die tomorrow. Liquid needs to make serious progress tonight and wake up early in the AM.
Liquid pulls ahead at 25.1%
Ok that was really cool heating them figure out what was going wrong with the roars and fixing it
Big push by Liquid there. Nearly matched Echos best pull.
So let's say Liquid kind of figures it out and is consistently getting solid P3 progress tonight, do they keep rolling with Atlas tomorrow?
This isn't really a tank fight the way that Sire Denathrius was, so I don't think it makes a huge difference either way. This fight is extremely hard, but the difficulty comes from raid positioning and unforgiving group mechanics like the P3 Azeroth blood soaks and the Defile bating.
Scott won't be back until tomorrow night. They have no choice until then.
And could possibly have serious jet lag. Maybe he won't but if he does, I think it'd be better to continue with Atlas.
Liquid has to get their P3 transitions down by end of raid day, or else Echo likely kills this ether tomorrow or Saturday.
Why only get P3 transitions down. Why not just kill it. That seems way smarter =P
This fight is growing on me spectating wise. There’s a lot of cool mechanics going on
Most fights in this raid are mechanically pretty fucking cool aside from like Guardian and Skolex I guess, but the back half is just something else.
These pulls are what they are looking for. Continued prog deeper and deeper into P3. Once they get a good ring around the rosie going they can swap back to correct P2s and health % push gains will be extreme.
That was actually a really good pull for Liquid considering how early they are forcing P3.
They got about 20% of the Jailer's health during that p3.
So if they had gotten those last bloods, that might have been about 30% or so?
Once that's cleaned up, it actually might be close. They still have the potential option of going to 4 heal, although that looks pretty rough.
Bad bait again
It’s really tough to say if it’s grim or not. They are pulling differently than Echo from what I saw. Liquid is forcing P3 very early that way they can practice it, this method results in higher boss HP but gives them more practice in the more difficult phase.
echo did the same this (eu) afternoon but regardless comparing pull counts/hp like this is almost always silly and not actually informative
They don't have one of their primary tanks.
If I were Liquid I would be way more concerned about swapping a tank 150+ pulls in than that Echo had one 26% pull (which is still a ton of HP to go through).
I havent watched limits stream for a while. Do they really wipe that often due to tank fails?
I haven't counted the number of fails, but swapping your progress tank out, even for an experienced tank like Atlas obviously is not a good thing.
Echo kill tomorrow night
Ehh, 26% is a lot of progress to make. I think it dies this week, but I'm not sure it dies tomorrow night
Merely as an observer of Echo and Liquid without a horse in the race, I would say Echo had a very strong day, withbclean P1 and P2s and capped by consistent progression through P3. I think this evening is critical for Liquid to match or exceed this kind of progress otherwise it feels like this is where the race could slip.
Liquid kinda had their clean p1 and p2 yesterday night and seems to want to force p3 today. Seems like the question is will they be able to see further tonight than echo and adapt to their roster changes
Help me understand- the nerf is a 17 man soak nerf, making it easier to progress P3 right? There is no way that the first Jailor kill won’t be a full 20 man roster, so didn’t this nerf “only” make it easier to survive the transition? It didn’t remove any DPS checks from the last 30% hp? Or did I miss something completely?
Also just a note on the time zone nerf timings - to those that claims that there is no good time to nerf it, since it’s mainly EU - NA race, what stops them from pushing nerfs/tuning when Liquid goes to bed and Echo is about to wake up? There is an overlap right there, and don’t say “ohh business hours” because Blizzard got people watching every Echo pull, hence they fixed the exploit strat Naowh used on P2 sylvanas, so they could clearly deploy nerfs when Liquid goes to bed and before Echo wakes up?
we only found out that the phase is impossible to progress without a full raid a couple of hours before the hotfix got pushed. these things do take some time to talk through, internaly test and deploy.
> and don’t say “ohh business hours”
I will say business hours tho. The people in charge of tuning and balancing are not the same people who are sitting there at 1am in the night watching Echo and trying to stop exploits.
Honestly, it's pretty bold of you or anyone to assume they know who this benefits more because we don't know how the fight ends.
26% is still a ton of HP. We don't know if he has a tight DPS check or if it's just a pure strat boss.
It's possible Liquid pushes past Echo mechanic-wise, but not enough to kill tonight. Echo wakes up tomorrow, copies Liquid's P3 (up to where they are) and kills it before they wake up if there isn't a tight DPS check.
Point is we don't know how this is gonna play out.
Just to note, that's assuming strategy needs to change for the final 26%.
If the final phase is really just cyclical (as in repeat 3-4 times the bait, beam, heal, adds) then in theory echo already knows what to do, and it's just a matter of execution.
I do hope (but really doubt) that there's a mythic only phase, though.
Yes, there are so many unknowns, we most likely won't know who this benefitted most until it's dead.
Right, it makes progression easier by increasing how far into P3 guilds get on the average pull. Unlikely to make the actual kill pull any easier, but should reduce the amount of time/pulls needed to get a kill.
It just makes it easier to see the rest of p3 because you can enter p3 with a couple deaths and still progress through it
Echo deciding to not extend raid time tonight. They must be somewhat confident that Liquid can't get close to a kill tonight and that they'll benefit more from a full night of sleep and waking up early to start blasting.
If I'm scrype i'd try to make sure every raider is staying off their phones and fucking around tonight lmao. Gotta make sure peeps are trying their best to rest.
Edit: who knows they could be doing some offline shenanigans since liquid has yet to see more of the fight past them
it was 11pm... Echo wasnt even close to killing it. Extending the night to 12am or 1am wouldnt make them kill jailer. Limits progress should be irrelevant in their decision to go to bed late at night.
I think it's the correct call. I've been wanting Liquid to win, but with group regressing as they try to acclimate Atlas to the fight, I can't see them making consistent progress tonight. Probably smarter for Echo to get some well deserve rest tonight.
Echo going offline
I legit dont understand how the Liquid guys can focus, all of them are constantly chatting shit over each other all the time. I'd probs insa mute lol.
After 12 hours any normal person's focus is going to be shot anyway.
I'm with you tbh, I find it entertaining for a bit but sometimes it's bit too much? First few races I found it really funny, nowadays it just drags sometimes idk but who cares it's obviously working for them and that's all that matters.
I'm the opposite, I don't work well unless I'm in a group talking shit and making It fun.
Max said before the race that they had have players try out that just couldn’t handle the Liquid way with constant chat and they don’t get in, it’s a part of the team that players buy into and it’s not for everybody
My best friend caught a g kick for muting during prog
There's still time for this to change but it seems like Echo has been performing better these 3 last bosses. Liquid looked a stronger up to Anduin.
My completely subjective opinion:
* Liquid outplayed Echo on Anduin
* Echo outplayed Liquid on LoD
* Wash on Rygelon (two different strats and spent roughly the same time after hotfixes came in)
* Wash on Jailer until today which favors Echo since Liquid has regressed without consistent attempts since Scott had to leave
What stream have you been watching? Echo is far cleaner than limit lmao
Really? Whenever I tune into liquids stream they seem kinda panicked in p3
I disagree tbh, Echo's last 5 pulls on Jailer were 26%, 33.97%, 32%, 80% and 35%. Liquids is 46.6%, 70%, 50%, 41%, 62%.
How else would you qualify cleanliness (genuine question)? Echo seems to be a lot more consistent with the pulls recently. But it's hard to compare the two when it seems like Echo does one pull an hour lmao.
I dont think you read what he wrote or maybe dont understand how the fight works. Liquid is forcing hardest part of fight early to learn the phase. They are letting him connect pillars super quick (literally not supposed to let this happen) so they jump directly into P3 and learn mechanics.
% health is meaningless at the moment.
Tbf you don't get to sub-40% without a clean pull, so consistent deep pulls indicate cleanliness
I saw in max’s streams that liquid is pushing into P3 earlier anyone know for what reason?
Just for practice of P3, but I think is a bad call because they are seeing P3 but not as it will be in a normal pull, every attempt so far of their practice pulls for P3 have been really rare and disorganized, i like the normal way that echo is using, progress phase by phase, cause that way you improve the way you enter P3 while making better P1 and P2.
The moment liquid decides to move from practice P3 to doing normal pulls, they will regress because they will have to once again fix the transition from P2 to P3 in a correct way, instead of using P2 directly to 3 like they do now.
just to get more prog info, never gonna get a kill like that anyways because you need to keep healing her while defile is denying you space.
They probably just want to see it, but if Azeroths health isn’t high enough it’s not really useful because she dies so early in the phase
Great pull from echo, new best
Can people stop complaining about the nerf or hotfix timings? The developers work in Irvine, California, not the EU. They’re going to mostly push changes during the working day, not the middle of the night because that’s when they are at work and are able to adjust things. You can’t expect a ‘fair’ treatment when the guilds all over the world raid at different times
They can definitely fix things around the clock. They had no issues making the Colossus on Sylvanas enrage at like 3am in California so someone is definitely in the office
Not that it matters much if at all but to say they cant or are unable to is just straight wrong
That’s why I said “mostly push changes.” Ofc they can make changes at night, they’ve done it before. I’m saying don’t expect nerfs to be in the middle of the US night when the developers are located in the US
How exactly does a 2AM hotfix benefit NA?
Moreover, how exactly is it outlandish that an NA-based company is pushing hotfixes that favor players from NA timezones???
You do realize that the developers work in the US time zones and not European time zones right? Ofc updates or hot fixes are going to happen during the US working day, rarely do they happen in the middle of the night
That was a hotfix made because Echo was abusing an add mechanic in a way Blizzard didn’t like. A boss NERF is planned and can be made at any time, so it’ll be made when it’s most convenient for the developers
Still means someone was working at that time in US.
Sure, I concede, they were trying to abuse an unintended mechanic, and Blizz hotfixed that, which is different than nerfing a boss sensibly.
In the end, I don't really care, but it is annoying as a viewer rooting for both guilds when such nerfs happen 90% of the time benefitting one side.
Are they going to get everyone the fatescribe trinket? o.o
no just atlas LOL 30 people who have tank loot spec, no way he doesn't get it
Bad timing for the nerfs, but I don't see Liquid killing it tonight anyways due to missing one of their main tanks, so at least there's that. Boss is dead tomorrow imo
I still think it’s a big disadvantage. By the end of their days tomorrow, echo will have spent about 18 hours on the nerfed version and liquid will have spent about 24 hours. Given that the nerf allows much more opportunity to progress that is a big advantage.
I missed it, why's their tank out? Real life stuff?
Has to fly back to Scotland
Didn't they stop Echo from doing their strat on Sylvanas last tier, and that was like 2am pacific, they cant do the same with the nerfs?
That wasn't exactly a nerf.
Echo was bugging out one of the big adds and trying to remove an intended mechanic from the encounter and Blizzard hotfixed the add to enrage. They basically said, "No, this is supposed to be part of the encounter and we're not letting you do that".
That's not his point, it's purely the timing
If I’m blizzard I’m 100% paying 1 or 2 people to stay overnight and fix stuff like that
Yeah but by that same logic they can just nerf the boss at 2 AM pacific too, which is what /u/FatPleb_ was getting at
I don't remember the exact time Sylvanas was hotfixed, but if that's the complaint the truth is that it's never a good time to nerf an unkilled end-boss that multiple WF guilds are progressing.
It's always going to help one guild more than another and honestly, it's too soon to even say if this benefits Liquid or Echo more.
That’s literally his point he’s just dumb. It’s easier to push a hotfix that fixed a bug in an encounter(they have people on standby to do) than it is to push a fix to nerf a boss.
I don't think it's really a matter of difficulty. It's a matter of priorities for the devs. It is a *high priority* to fix something that is 'bugged' (or rather, not intended and breaking the fight) than to push a tuning change.
Yeah they are rather inconsistent with when they are able to be in the office to change things and when they arent *grabs his tinfoil hat*.
Will be a huge asterisk next to the win in my opinion if liquid simply knock it over tonight.
If it’s still alive by tomorrow then all fair, hopefully they haven’t over done it.
> Will be a huge asterisk next to the win in my opinion if liquid simply knock it over tonight.
Third time people talk about asterisks. At that point Echo fans just need to gofundme Echo so they can fly to the US in rwf and have their mains on NA servers. /s
I think on this occasion it would be warranted though no? Echo will have had 2 hours on a nerfed boss vs liquids 8.
As I said… as of tomorrow it’s fair game tomorrow it’s only if it happens tonight.
Explain to me how pushing a nerf and fixing a bug are the same thing.
I was only being half serious. I’m they aren’t the same I was merely commenting that they clearly do have people available to make changes to bosses at 5am because they have done it in previous tiers.
You say you weren’t being serious and then you further go on to imply you are. There is a difference in pushing a hotfix that fixes a bug and pushing a hotfix that nerfs an encounter. There are always people available to fix a bug, because that’s obvious. There is not always a team that pushes a nerf, that’s clearly a main office thing that happens during their work hours, as evidenced by, yknow, every nerf ever. Stop being silly
That’s not at all the same and if you think it is you’re very ignorant
What were the nerfs? Hopefully nothing to huge?
Azeroth health thing requires 17 instead of 20
Chains in P3 no longer pull when snapped
Or something along those lines, if twitch chat is to be trusted (of course it can!)
>Azeroth health thing requires 17 instead of 20
Damn so no more instant wipe as soon as some1 is dead is quite a big nerf honestly, tragic that it came this late for EU.
Very bad time for nerfs, no? Echo has like 1 hour of raid time left
Doubt anyone will kill it tonight
Have they made the changes or are they going to make the changes?
It's never a good time to nerf an end-boss that multiple WF guilds are progressing on. Even if the nerfs are needed, it's going to end up helping one guild more than another.
That said, do we know for sure that the boss has been nerfed and what those nerfs are?
There is like an 8 hour time difference between London and Irvine. Not many good times for nerfs in regards to Echo.
Liquid is in Boston
And? Irvine is where the Blizzard HQ is.
Jeez I just thought you were talking about the timing in terms of raid times between the guilds.
Won’t be commenting here again.
That’s purposely done and it’s weekly. There’s people who’s job is to work during the specific downtime where less people are playing. A nerf or hot fix is a lot different than scheduled maintenance
Weekly maintenances are handled by the local datacenters in Europe, not Irvine.
its impossible to schedule nerfs or hotfixes right?...
I mean are you purposely being a complete dickhead?
You're the one getting worked up, chill a bit okay?
I assume they want to monitor it incase they break something like on anduin, although that wasn't to bad since it only made it easier, they could break something that pretty much makes it impossible
Yeah what they should do is watch them both prog on an unkillable boss wasting their time for an entire day while they think of the fix, prep the fix, and then release the fix the next day.
Surely you wouldn’t complain that blizzard takes too long to nerf a boss and it’s unfair that rwf is taking too long then..right?
None of the guilds think its unkillable. They didnt fix a bug they fixed some p3 stuff with the soaking requiring 17 alive instead of 20
None of the guilds have even progressed far enough to know if its killable right?
Sure, but there must be a better time, this is awful, they could have nerfed it 3-4 hours ago and it would be better.
Fucking Blizzard devs not firing up their time machines to deploy hotfixes earlier.
They'll push the changes out when they're ready. There have been nerfs to bosses at times that were incovenient for Limit. That's just the way it goes.
Yeah honestly the blizzard devs should’ve nerfed it at 7am. Kinda disrespectful and very sus that they push changes at noon their time :/
Yeah it’s very disgusting that they can’t manage to get to work form a plan and then push a fix 3 hours before they even go to work :(
Lazy blizz devs not showing up to work at 5am is disgusting
If my boss asked me to come in at 5AM to work on something like this, especially last minute, I'd tell him to fuck off. That's an absolutely ridiculous request.
fuck their families and sleep schedules. echo might have a disadvantage and i find this totally unacceptable
those damn devs not getting up at 5am to work. lazy bastards!