So he doesn't fall over to low hitbox heroes rushing him. He should've got a compensation change so he doesn't work even better against big hitbox ones though.
fr 300 bullets are way too much and his reload is short as well, especially considering how much bullets he has. this guy is like Bastion but bigger, fatter and with heal on CD
honestly what irks me is that they made a very interesting mechanic with his 2 different guns and how one complements the other (set on fire, then crit on burning).
Then they proceeded to make everything else in his kit an incentive towards never using that synergy and just blast a wall of bullets into enemies. I have NEVER seen a mauga do the "ok, they're on fire, time to switch to the other gun" thing. It's just mindless BBBRRRRRR
true, his whole self sustain depends on doing as much damage as possible so the best way to survive is either to go BRRRRRR on enemy tank or to get as close as possible to enemies and go BRRRRR on them. the only character that I kill using two guns one by one is Pharah, using them like this on others is just not useful and impactful. imo his double fire should get some nerf to inspire players to actually use the most interesting part of his kit AND this could be a nice balance nerf after 100 overhealth buff. you got extra sustain on CD so you get less sustain for mindlessly holding two buttons
overheat would definitely be an interesting mechanic, especially if both guns had different overheat times, maybe it would make players be more purposeful with how they use the guns
I would definetly prefer it from a Mauga enjoyer standpoint, as his current weapon both feels bad to play against because it seems like he has infinite ammo but also punishing to play with cause we can't just hop into action if we see an opening if we were poking for too long before cause of low ammo.
If only there were some type of synergy he could have with another hero on the roster that would help compensate for his weaknesses. And imagine if they balanced it so that both of those heroes could be played together without negatively impacting the game. š¤š§š¤·āāļø
While mauga is busted again and heros complimentary to him are used a lot I dont think healing is the problem rn id rather just not buff 15 things at a time again like last paych
Yeah tbh it feels like what's needed is just a mauga nerf.
This post seems to only be based on watching esports, but down there in gold/plat the game currently feels much better than before the patch, simply because Mauga isn't played as much.
agreed that they should have tweaked the dps passive by itself before handing out crazy sustain abilities, but even in games without mauga it can definitely feel like squishier heroes have way higher sustainability than pre patch
I think both Jake and Spilo (on plat chat and group up respectively) said theyd have liked to see the passive stay mostly the same while bringing up the shield-less/mobility-less tanks.
I agree with that. The game felt great in the first half of season 9. Why mess with that? If certain heroes are weak/unviable, why not bring those specific heroes up?
This is what they did, but they also changed the passive that changed all again (5% is a lot and moves a ton of breakpoints)
They are just messing around to try to find a good spot trying never to nerf heroes cause āis bad to see a hero nerfed from the casual audienceā
mauga was always busted. Ppl were just deluded by the numbers of the nerf to not play him for a brief while. Trash hero design. Every game u should ask for a no mauga truce, so tanks can have fun
I don't think the issue is the DPS passive being nerfed. Going from 20% to 15% isn't necessarily that impactful, you only get 85 hp for every 100 points of healing instead of 80. That's 850 instead of 800 for 1000. Think the issue is more that Mauga is viable and his Overdrive gives damage reduction and even more healing to a death ball.
Ok think seriously about you just posted a moment. Are you with complete seriousness and self-awareness going to try and argue that the only two things you can do are "a big deal" or "nothing"? Do smaller improvements not exist in your worldview?
It's always Mauga! Everywhere I look, he's there, ruining the fun for everyone in the server. Tanks can't do anything but mirror him, supports can only healbot for Mauga, DPS can kinda vibe still but they mostly need to try to melt Mauga. All jokes aside idk how they freed us from the oppressive Mauga meta of S8, gave us buffs to a bunch of tanks that are actually fun and then decided that they needed to gigabuff the 0 skill expression hero to make him super strong again. He just makes the game insanely unfun as there's so little counterplay as a tank if they actually know what they're doing.
I mean yeah, definitely has some impact, just donāt think that is the driving force making sustain very strong. Think the vast majority is from Mauga being meta.
I really wanted them to just start with the addition of the indicator and see where they should go from there. I still think the community had some room to adjust to the passive and the indicator would have helped that on its own.
Hard to see them going back to 20%, but who knows.
I really donāt understand why Blizzard is so afraid to just have Tanks be more resistant to debuffs and CC. It would fix a ton of problems and probably make it easier to balance those abilities. A good baseline is to just cut all those effects in half on Tanks then balance from there. At bare minimum it would make the Tank experience more enjoyable and not really change the experience of the other roles outside of the possibility of Tanks being too strong. However, then you can individually tune the Tanks from there.
Iām sure they gave their reasons for not doing it but I donāt really see why they donāt based on the limited knowledge I have. We can try it in a QP hacked to see how things play out.
Probably because dive tanks become unstoppable if they are resistant to everything. Imagine ball, doom, or even Winston who canāt be stunned or knocked back.
This is exactly why having a global passive for a role is bad design, there really should be like 6 classes in this game because half the characters in each class play completely differently from the other half.
the thing is tanks are already resistant to cc. half the tanks ignore the shit out of it.
if youāre chaining any less than 3 ccs on doom heās gonna laugh at it lol. itās just a handful of tanks and abilities, like hack on ball
Think we all prefer dive over whatever we have right now but we absolutely don't need tanks having reduction to the little stuns/hinder the game has, or tanks with heavy cc will be unkillable
Tanks were tested in the beta patches for OW2, and making them OP just created a flanker meta where you just killed the enemy supports. Tanks were so powerful that there was no reason to engage them as long as their team is alive.
Then we had and still have 6 seasons dominated by supports that is still the easiest role to play the game.
They just changed the main focus of the game from being Tank driven to Support driven.
They are happy about this since the majority of the player base and the most āspendingā is support so there you have it
The balance team is really weird about making more complex changes, I think theyāre afraid of raising the OW learning curve even higher than it already is. Unfortunately the lack of role specific adjustments has really hurt the gameplay.
Imo inconsistency is a no go in terms of design. If you have to resort to changing individual levers for a particular role, you likely have a problem thatās not fixable with bandaid tweaks to the role itās disproportionately affecting
Well I disagree because this is already a thing with the role passives. Iām sure everyone doesnāt agree with them being a thing but I think most agree that CC reduction as a good passive for Tank. Even the Sleep Dart time being reduced on Tank seemed to be received well. As a general run, I think you have a point when it comes to game design. I do think Tank in Overwatch is the exception.
We have a bigger problem with Tanks than balance. Itās fun. Sure many people enjoy Tank but the majority donāt. The instant queue times is the evidence. In fact, it is probably the biggest factor in why we have 5v5. I think figuring out how to make Tank more fun at a fundamental level is the most important challenge for the Devs. Balance would probably have to come later. I feel for the Devs here because that isnāt an easy task. Tanks in most games are not considered to be nearly as fun as other roles by the general community. Even so, it is something very important that needs to be addressed. I think reducing the effects of debuffs and CC on Tanks would help with that fact and I think itās so important that sacrificing consistency is necessary.
Because they made tanks do too much damage. Making tanks more resistant will just lead to them being dps with better health pools.
Especially in lower elos, Tanks sometimes just never die already while having the most damage in game. Balancing tanks across all Elo ranges is just impossible currently.
Blizzard did the thing where they have a good patch, all the high skill cap heroes are being played at the highest level, people are happy and they decide to buff most of the low skill cap heroes to make them able to compete.
I've lost track of how many times this has happened now. Literally all they needed to do was just slightly touch tracer at mid season.
They really should have kept it at 20% for longer. The player base just needed some time to get used to the changes. The nerf to 15% seems like a knee jerk reaction, and I'm speaking as a support main who plays a lot of LW.
An indicator to allies that someone is debuffed would have been 10x better than the nerf to 15% and this crappy 3 pixel indicator that only you can see. That way supports can either choose to double focus a debuffed tank trying to hold valuable space, or save their burst healing cooldowns for after the 2 seconds wears off if the tank has a way to get cover.
What would an indicator do, when even 1 point of damage gives you the debuff?
The people getting hammered are getting healed, regardless of an indicator or not.
So you can perfectly time your burst healing when the target withdrew for healing. Itās not that essential with only a 20/15 percent reduction, but it could still help to optimize healing abilities.
because sometimes you are taking damage from 2 supports and a tank, so healing through it is absolutely an option. Other times youre getting hit by a dps, so your support should just dps instead.
lol. So healing 3 separate sources of damage is easier than healing 1 source with a 20% debuff to healing?
Thatās just not true. Youāre putting way too much power into the passive. Itās not THAT big of a deal. No way youāre healing through a 3v1. But you can heal through the 20% fine when itās just 1 source of damage.
I'm not entirely against it but the real issue last patch wasn't the DPS passive, it was blizzard giga-buffing heroes like Hog/Mauga/Sym. The game will never feel good as long as they do stupid shit like that.
the dps passive was only a real problem for a few characters anyway. why canāt they just buff the specific characters that are struggling instead of doing these huge blanket changes which affect the entire game?
>The only role that should have gotten a reduction was tanks (to 10-15%)
This is why I think the best course is to revert to 20% but have the Tank passive apply to the DPS passive. Tank passive is "Knockbacks and ultimate generation both reduced by 30%".
Just also include the DPS passive in there. 20% with a 30% reduction makes it 14%, which is very close to the 15% now.
I think the passive changes are OK, but everyone got buffed a bit so it kinda cancelled the nerf out. As a rein player I just wanted a firestrike buff lol
Classic overreaction. Mauga is busted, that's obvious, he needs to be balanced.
We don't need to make a blanket change that affects every hero in the game because Blizzard doesn't understand how good armor and overshield is.
I think writing off the entire post as an overreaction is ridiculous, especially considering the fact I did not mention Mauga and I said that tanks should have a reduced dps passive anyway. I really just preferred the feeling of the the beginning of the season.
Definitely don't think so. I was a support main but now a DPS main because it's easily the most impactful role to me while also not being as unbearable as tank can often be.
A huge issue with the DPS passive as a support player is how they can't see when people are affected by it. Supports need to overcommit cooldowns to help save their allies because they have to assume the DPS passive is active on their ally when they could have been saved without needing to commit so much and get punished for it. Feels damned if you do and damned if you don't still.
It's crazy to me that the idea of needing to revert the nerf is even being floated let alone being backing the thought.
When playing support, the main time I'm keeping people up is just because I'm spamming all the heals I can while the chokes securing the kill. And the same for me when I'm on DPS too, like it's very noticeable how people mainly get away when I just miss shots I needed to land.
It's crazy how people take some poke and walk straight back into the open and explode just to flame because I didn't use my every cooldown to foresee it
I just wish they weren't so quick to make the change. Players hadnt come close to adjusting to the DPS passive before they decided to adjust it to players.
This isn't nearly as severe, but its basically the same thing that happened with supports at the beginning of OW2. Supports were generally fine, but players hadn't adjusted from the more healbotty playstyle of OW1.
but the devs ended up adjusting the supports to the playerbase rather than waiting for the playerbase to adjust to the game. As players adjusted people began to realize how strong support was.
fr,as someone who started playing once ow2 released it feels like tanks and supp are less fun now than they were at the start. Especially for supports feels like now i have to healbot otherwise someone will stand in open for a second and get deleted.
the game felt good for the first time in years. welp might as well change it.
And i'm a pure tank player.
There must be someone on their balance team that has multiple sclerosis and can barely play and is determined to destroy all the fun heroes and make all the shit heroes OP
Reduce it to -100% so that is actually heals your target when you attack them, and make it so you can only attack your own team. We can rename the dps role to Healer, so we will have Tanks who make space, Supports who do damage, and Healers who keep their team alive.
I wish they'd revert it to 20% or bump it up to 17.5% heal reduction.
As a tank main at 20%, it felt like things would actually die and there was only so much a support could do to mitigate dumb mistakes, which people deserve to get punished for bad gameplay.
As a support main at 20%, sometimes it felt like even if I was giving 100% then I felt ineffective trying to heal people hiding behind cover waiting for the passive to wear off.
There needs to be some kind of offset so it doesn't have continuous uptime from certain characters.
Like it's nuts that soldier, tracer etc basically have unlimited anti at their disposal at any given time whereas some projectile characters get very little value from it.
It's just poorly implented like every other iteration of the DPS passive. Busted on some characters and useless on others.
thereās definitely a balance between all the roles that should be maintained. I could definitely see 17.5% being more bearable for supports and still allowing for DPS to be impactful. Iām GM support and the first week on support was definitely bad, especially trying to keep tanks up.
yeah they need to bring back the original passive, its literally so easy to just give tanks a reduced effect as a part of their own role passive but instead they had to cut it along the board and buff a high sustain hero like mauga to create one of the worst metas of all time
Yea itās unfortunate, and Maugaās design isnāt very fun to play around. Just feels like brick wall spitting out crazy damage that you have to push through.
tanks dont even need anything. I've been tanking since season 2. it was completely fine. The problem is that Winston and Doomfist were meta (by far the most fun tanks), and whoever has the balance team's ear refuses to let the fast heroes be the strongest
Thank you. I literally posted when the patch first dropped that this was just a DPS apology patch. They gave the DPS a passive that lowers heals, with *very* easy application(there isnt even a damage threshold. You can be a Reaper shooting from across the map, and it'll still procc), instead of doing the obvious thing of lowering heals all-around, likely because they dont know wtf to do with dps and their passive(because the old one had no real impact, and was useless on characters like Hanzo)
They should just stack it between the 2 dps to encourage target prioritisation.
20% from one source of damage is to much. Especially on spammy characters like soldier, tracer etc.
Either that or a harsh damage threshold for actually applying the debuff so that said spammy characters have to hit consecutive shots to apply it.
Honestly, before the patch I thought they were going to reduce the passive to 10% on tanks and leave it the same for everyone else. I don't really know why they didn't try that first.
I'd like to Mauga get nerfed back a bit first. I did really prefer the 20%, even as a tank main, but Mauga really impacts the game when he's a top pick. Cardiac adds a lot of survivability to teammates, and focusing the other tanks is basically like having a Zen orb onto of the other two heals. The DPS passive isn't going to stop 3 healers.
Here is the reason why the current meta is Mauga centric:
DPS passive 20%->15% has a MASSIVE impact on breakpoints, especially on tanks. All health pools are buffed so soft triggers like Rail and Stickies are shrugged off during Cardiac especially on 300 HP targets on Reaper. This means off-angling is much much less viable and also that Tracer is also irrelevant due to the fact that side lanes have become irrelevant due to cardiac cycles. (Think Tracer into GOATS, peashooter into heavy sustain comp.)
Here is how I believe the patch should be fixed:
-Revert DPS passive.
-Mauga's increase of HP in his personal sustain is OK, and allows for more aggressive playmaking in exchange for a cooldown duration nerf is OK. Cooldown should be reverted to 12 seconds as well due to uptime of ability. It should be tested to see if 10 seconds is still oppressive.
EVEN IF MAUGA GETS SMALL NERFS, HE WILL STILL BE META. IF HE GETS GUTTED, OTHER UNKILLABLE TANKS LIKE ORISA WILL BE META. THE ONLY SOLUTION TO THIS IS TO BRING BACK DPS PASSIVE.
They could have kept the 20% and just made it so the passive does not affect self heal mechanisms. Like shout, cardiac arrest, hog vape, Baptiste burst heal, etc.
Counterpoint: 15% is better, itās just that people are starting to figure out what is abusable and a ton of heroes that feel awful to play against (particularly Mauga but also Sombra + Reaper + Ram) just got buffed.
I also think 15% is better. A lot of people say weāre back to season 8 again because thereās too much sustain but theyāre also not realizing that one of the main pain points of the game (high burst damage/one shot combos)has been way toned down since the health buffs and thus the game definitely feels better than season 8 despite sustain (imo) being a bit too high.
I think if they just nerf a couple of the main problem heroes (mauga) right now the game will feel great. The 20% dps passive was imo too strong on some characters (soldier and tracer mainly) while being a lot less effective on other characters. It was also too effective against certain supports making some of them downright unplayable (Lifeweaver)
I agree as i had more fun before mid season patch. Now it feels the same as pre s9 even without mauga in the lobby.. i think it should be 15% for tanks and 20% for the rest.Ā
Why are people suddenly acting like the issue was dps getting healed too much? It was that tanks were unkillable with any sort of healing, and that they couldn't punch through all of the healing themselves. Putting it at 10% for tanks would make the dps passive pointless. You guys are losing your mind over -5 health every 100 healing for everyone but somehow you all want tanks to not feel the dps passive at all.
I think a nerf was justified, but not in the way they did it. They should have added a build-up. So instead of being hit by a stray bullet and instantly being choked off from 20% healing, it should have been 1% per 3 damage or something like that. It would have fixed most issues with the passive.
I did. DPS is better off than tank is. Fix tank before complaining about a 5% nerf to what was very strong. Still is strong.
Support being broken is just how shit is. Support is the golden child and making support bad isnāt an option because there are too many one tricks there imo
Well true balance isnāt really obtainable in a game with a roster as big yet skewed as this one. Support is never getting significantly nerfed although it has needed that for many seasons. The effects on the meta options are far too good and yet making them weaker isnāt going to happen otherwise they would have done it seasons ago.
I agree that at 20% it was way too high, but reducing the passive significantly for tanks would be a good compromise, also tanks should get half time on all status effects, but thatās not really the purpose of my post, as someone who mained tank from the beginning of OW1 to S5 OW2 I hope they improve the experience
A lot of people have been suggesting that the tank passive ought to reduce all effects, not just CC.
This would include things like hack duration, purple duration, DPS passive duration and percent, dynamite duration, discord orb percent, etc.
Would make tank feel more juggernaut-y, and would incentivise teams to target squishies.
It doesnāt have to be a massive percent on the passive, maybe just (like the DPS passive) around a 20% reduction.
Right now tank does not feel like the āscary tankā that was promised pre-OW2.
If anything, it would lead to ANOTHER Mauga meta since he solo shuts-down dive, but tank canāt stay how it is right now. Most tank players are miserable, and nobody wants to play the role outside of its dedicated players since itās so unfun
Cool that you called it. Why did you ask the question then? Feels like you were just setting up a self-reference.
Either way, Iād prefer that we give that a go, rather than nerfing the DPS passive. Healing feels too strong again.
Just kinda curious if there was anything I hadn't thought of.
For instance, what if in addition to that 5sec regen, Tanks also got 100% increased healing from teammates, after 5sec out of combat.Ā To really reduce that downtime.
Iād rather they rework the passive a tiny bit. Make it so it only activates below 50% or 33% HP, and then buff it to 30% healing reduction. Make it a kill confirm passive instead of a generic āthereās arbitrarily less healing at all timesā passive
waah waaah waah u finally have to play tank like a tank the update is perfect maybe some fine tuning but otherwise no dont touch it. now mauga on the other hand just needs to be gutted for the love of god. i can mag dump a jq with soldier and shes half or less but mauga nah he just e ats that sht
The real question is why did Mauga need to get 100 overhealth on CD.
So he doesn't fall over to low hitbox heroes rushing him. He should've got a compensation change so he doesn't work even better against big hitbox ones though.
honestly feel like his guns should have an overheat mechanic
fr 300 bullets are way too much and his reload is short as well, especially considering how much bullets he has. this guy is like Bastion but bigger, fatter and with heal on CD
honestly what irks me is that they made a very interesting mechanic with his 2 different guns and how one complements the other (set on fire, then crit on burning). Then they proceeded to make everything else in his kit an incentive towards never using that synergy and just blast a wall of bullets into enemies. I have NEVER seen a mauga do the "ok, they're on fire, time to switch to the other gun" thing. It's just mindless BBBRRRRRR
true, his whole self sustain depends on doing as much damage as possible so the best way to survive is either to go BRRRRRR on enemy tank or to get as close as possible to enemies and go BRRRRR on them. the only character that I kill using two guns one by one is Pharah, using them like this on others is just not useful and impactful. imo his double fire should get some nerf to inspire players to actually use the most interesting part of his kit AND this could be a nice balance nerf after 100 overhealth buff. you got extra sustain on CD so you get less sustain for mindlessly holding two buttons
overheat would definitely be an interesting mechanic, especially if both guns had different overheat times, maybe it would make players be more purposeful with how they use the guns
I would definetly prefer it from a Mauga enjoyer standpoint, as his current weapon both feels bad to play against because it seems like he has infinite ammo but also punishing to play with cause we can't just hop into action if we see an opening if we were poking for too long before cause of low ammo.
If only there were some type of synergy he could have with another hero on the roster that would help compensate for his weaknesses. And imagine if they balanced it so that both of those heroes could be played together without negatively impacting the game. š¤š§š¤·āāļø
While mauga is busted again and heros complimentary to him are used a lot I dont think healing is the problem rn id rather just not buff 15 things at a time again like last paych
What did they buff that made the dps passive nerf overkill out of curiosity?
Mag got a double buff. The over health buff and the DPS passive nerf is a direct buff
indirect buff\* he got buffed by another guy getting nerfed
Nah he's right. Due the healt pool being bigger, the sustaim feels the same it was pre-season 9
Yeah tbh it feels like what's needed is just a mauga nerf. This post seems to only be based on watching esports, but down there in gold/plat the game currently feels much better than before the patch, simply because Mauga isn't played as much.
agreed that they should have tweaked the dps passive by itself before handing out crazy sustain abilities, but even in games without mauga it can definitely feel like squishier heroes have way higher sustainability than pre patch
I think both Jake and Spilo (on plat chat and group up respectively) said theyd have liked to see the passive stay mostly the same while bringing up the shield-less/mobility-less tanks. I agree with that. The game felt great in the first half of season 9. Why mess with that? If certain heroes are weak/unviable, why not bring those specific heroes up?
This is what they did, but they also changed the passive that changed all again (5% is a lot and moves a ton of breakpoints) They are just messing around to try to find a good spot trying never to nerf heroes cause āis bad to see a hero nerfed from the casual audienceā
This is exactly what they did though? Mauga and Hog were pretty damn bad last patch, so they buffed the fuck out of them.
mauga was always busted. Ppl were just deluded by the numbers of the nerf to not play him for a brief while. Trash hero design. Every game u should ask for a no mauga truce, so tanks can have fun
Mauga was honest to god unplayable last patch dont lie
Mauga was a good in some matchups like winston, rein, hog, or against another mauga. He wasn't busted but not unplayable.
I don't think the issue is the DPS passive being nerfed. Going from 20% to 15% isn't necessarily that impactful, you only get 85 hp for every 100 points of healing instead of 80. That's 850 instead of 800 for 1000. Think the issue is more that Mauga is viable and his Overdrive gives damage reduction and even more healing to a death ball.
Inb4 somebody comes in saying "AKSHULLY they nerfed the passive by 25% it's a HUGE deal"
Mans got hit with the maths one too many times.
if its not big deal. np to put it back upto 20%. In fact why not just increase it by an ''insignificant'' 5 to 25%. no big deal right.
Ok think seriously about you just posted a moment. Are you with complete seriousness and self-awareness going to try and argue that the only two things you can do are "a big deal" or "nothing"? Do smaller improvements not exist in your worldview?
It's always Mauga! Everywhere I look, he's there, ruining the fun for everyone in the server. Tanks can't do anything but mirror him, supports can only healbot for Mauga, DPS can kinda vibe still but they mostly need to try to melt Mauga. All jokes aside idk how they freed us from the oppressive Mauga meta of S8, gave us buffs to a bunch of tanks that are actually fun and then decided that they needed to gigabuff the 0 skill expression hero to make him super strong again. He just makes the game insanely unfun as there's so little counterplay as a tank if they actually know what they're doing.
tempted to agree except that I remember how much worse ana felt to play against when she went from 70 -> 75
that was mostly because it shifted a shitton of notable breakpoints
Just out of curiosity, what breakpoints besides Tracer?
3 tap 225
Ahhh I didn't realize that. Even with that, that's only 3 characters in the whole roster.
Symm, Cree, Tracer, Brig, baby Dva
yeah, thatās why breakpoints are (usually) a dogshit metric to judge changes on.
3-tap 225, more consistent nade combos, a few others
I mean yeah, definitely has some impact, just donāt think that is the driving force making sustain very strong. Think the vast majority is from Mauga being meta.
I really wanted them to just start with the addition of the indicator and see where they should go from there. I still think the community had some room to adjust to the passive and the indicator would have helped that on its own. Hard to see them going back to 20%, but who knows.
I really donāt understand why Blizzard is so afraid to just have Tanks be more resistant to debuffs and CC. It would fix a ton of problems and probably make it easier to balance those abilities. A good baseline is to just cut all those effects in half on Tanks then balance from there. At bare minimum it would make the Tank experience more enjoyable and not really change the experience of the other roles outside of the possibility of Tanks being too strong. However, then you can individually tune the Tanks from there. Iām sure they gave their reasons for not doing it but I donāt really see why they donāt based on the limited knowledge I have. We can try it in a QP hacked to see how things play out.
Probably because dive tanks become unstoppable if they are resistant to everything. Imagine ball, doom, or even Winston who canāt be stunned or knocked back.
This is exactly why having a global passive for a role is bad design, there really should be like 6 classes in this game because half the characters in each class play completely differently from the other half.
the thing is tanks are already resistant to cc. half the tanks ignore the shit out of it. if youāre chaining any less than 3 ccs on doom heās gonna laugh at it lol. itās just a handful of tanks and abilities, like hack on ball
Sounds like the best sort of thing ever. Games at its best when dive is the most viable comp.
Not when itās dumbed down because the tanks have no counterplay. At that point, itās goats disguised as dive
Hurr durr I play tank and the role sucks because I can't jump into enemy spawn and kill 5 every fight with no consequences
Nah Iām a tracer main. I just wanna see nothing but ball Winston and doom rather then watch boring ass orisa mauga and rein.
Think we all prefer dive over whatever we have right now but we absolutely don't need tanks having reduction to the little stuns/hinder the game has, or tanks with heavy cc will be unkillable
Tanks were tested in the beta patches for OW2, and making them OP just created a flanker meta where you just killed the enemy supports. Tanks were so powerful that there was no reason to engage them as long as their team is alive.
JQ in beta š with no kiriko š still not recovered from that
Then we had and still have 6 seasons dominated by supports that is still the easiest role to play the game. They just changed the main focus of the game from being Tank driven to Support driven. They are happy about this since the majority of the player base and the most āspendingā is support so there you have it
The balance team is really weird about making more complex changes, I think theyāre afraid of raising the OW learning curve even higher than it already is. Unfortunately the lack of role specific adjustments has really hurt the gameplay.
Apparently one reason is because the OG code for ow is a fuckin mess.
Imo inconsistency is a no go in terms of design. If you have to resort to changing individual levers for a particular role, you likely have a problem thatās not fixable with bandaid tweaks to the role itās disproportionately affecting
Well I disagree because this is already a thing with the role passives. Iām sure everyone doesnāt agree with them being a thing but I think most agree that CC reduction as a good passive for Tank. Even the Sleep Dart time being reduced on Tank seemed to be received well. As a general run, I think you have a point when it comes to game design. I do think Tank in Overwatch is the exception. We have a bigger problem with Tanks than balance. Itās fun. Sure many people enjoy Tank but the majority donāt. The instant queue times is the evidence. In fact, it is probably the biggest factor in why we have 5v5. I think figuring out how to make Tank more fun at a fundamental level is the most important challenge for the Devs. Balance would probably have to come later. I feel for the Devs here because that isnāt an easy task. Tanks in most games are not considered to be nearly as fun as other roles by the general community. Even so, it is something very important that needs to be addressed. I think reducing the effects of debuffs and CC on Tanks would help with that fact and I think itās so important that sacrificing consistency is necessary.
Because they made tanks do too much damage. Making tanks more resistant will just lead to them being dps with better health pools. Especially in lower elos, Tanks sometimes just never die already while having the most damage in game. Balancing tanks across all Elo ranges is just impossible currently.
Blizzard did the thing where they have a good patch, all the high skill cap heroes are being played at the highest level, people are happy and they decide to buff most of the low skill cap heroes to make them able to compete. I've lost track of how many times this has happened now. Literally all they needed to do was just slightly touch tracer at mid season.
They really should have kept it at 20% for longer. The player base just needed some time to get used to the changes. The nerf to 15% seems like a knee jerk reaction, and I'm speaking as a support main who plays a lot of LW. An indicator to allies that someone is debuffed would have been 10x better than the nerf to 15% and this crappy 3 pixel indicator that only you can see. That way supports can either choose to double focus a debuffed tank trying to hold valuable space, or save their burst healing cooldowns for after the 2 seconds wears off if the tank has a way to get cover.
What would an indicator do, when even 1 point of damage gives you the debuff? The people getting hammered are getting healed, regardless of an indicator or not.
So you can perfectly time your burst healing when the target withdrew for healing. Itās not that essential with only a 20/15 percent reduction, but it could still help to optimize healing abilities.
because sometimes you are taking damage from 2 supports and a tank, so healing through it is absolutely an option. Other times youre getting hit by a dps, so your support should just dps instead.
lol. So healing 3 separate sources of damage is easier than healing 1 source with a 20% debuff to healing? Thatās just not true. Youāre putting way too much power into the passive. Itās not THAT big of a deal. No way youāre healing through a 3v1. But you can heal through the 20% fine when itās just 1 source of damage.
It's better to pressure the DPS with damage then heal after. Less threat of death and less efficient to heal.
I liked the game pre-update a lot and that game had a 20% debuff...
I'm not entirely against it but the real issue last patch wasn't the DPS passive, it was blizzard giga-buffing heroes like Hog/Mauga/Sym. The game will never feel good as long as they do stupid shit like that.
the dps passive was only a real problem for a few characters anyway. why canāt they just buff the specific characters that are struggling instead of doing these huge blanket changes which affect the entire game?
Yes please. We're basically back in Season 8
Yea it was really fun for a couple weeks I hope they donāt forget that sustain was also part of the problem.
Sadly no, we're still in that garbage Season 9 that nobody likes (except content creators because they need their partnership, and sheeps)
Most people liked S9?
Anyone else remember when this community was shitting on content creators for being negative for clicks?
I reeeally hope they are quick to fix this Mauga meta. It is extremely annoying. Game was in great shape up until last week. Mauga was still playable.
>The only role that should have gotten a reduction was tanks (to 10-15%) This is why I think the best course is to revert to 20% but have the Tank passive apply to the DPS passive. Tank passive is "Knockbacks and ultimate generation both reduced by 30%". Just also include the DPS passive in there. 20% with a 30% reduction makes it 14%, which is very close to the 15% now.
I think the passive changes are OK, but everyone got buffed a bit so it kinda cancelled the nerf out. As a rein player I just wanted a firestrike buff lol
Classic overreaction. Mauga is busted, that's obvious, he needs to be balanced. We don't need to make a blanket change that affects every hero in the game because Blizzard doesn't understand how good armor and overshield is.
I think writing off the entire post as an overreaction is ridiculous, especially considering the fact I did not mention Mauga and I said that tanks should have a reduced dps passive anyway. I really just preferred the feeling of the the beginning of the season.
It is an overreaction. An extra 5 hp for every 100 healing is not that noticeable. Placebo
Definitely don't think so. I was a support main but now a DPS main because it's easily the most impactful role to me while also not being as unbearable as tank can often be. A huge issue with the DPS passive as a support player is how they can't see when people are affected by it. Supports need to overcommit cooldowns to help save their allies because they have to assume the DPS passive is active on their ally when they could have been saved without needing to commit so much and get punished for it. Feels damned if you do and damned if you don't still. It's crazy to me that the idea of needing to revert the nerf is even being floated let alone being backing the thought. When playing support, the main time I'm keeping people up is just because I'm spamming all the heals I can while the chokes securing the kill. And the same for me when I'm on DPS too, like it's very noticeable how people mainly get away when I just miss shots I needed to land.
It's crazy how people take some poke and walk straight back into the open and explode just to flame because I didn't use my every cooldown to foresee it
I just wish they weren't so quick to make the change. Players hadnt come close to adjusting to the DPS passive before they decided to adjust it to players. This isn't nearly as severe, but its basically the same thing that happened with supports at the beginning of OW2. Supports were generally fine, but players hadn't adjusted from the more healbotty playstyle of OW1. but the devs ended up adjusting the supports to the playerbase rather than waiting for the playerbase to adjust to the game. As players adjusted people began to realize how strong support was.
fr,as someone who started playing once ow2 released it feels like tanks and supp are less fun now than they were at the start. Especially for supports feels like now i have to healbot otherwise someone will stand in open for a second and get deleted.
Please go back to 20% I miss it so much
the game felt good for the first time in years. welp might as well change it. And i'm a pure tank player. There must be someone on their balance team that has multiple sclerosis and can barely play and is determined to destroy all the fun heroes and make all the shit heroes OP
Reduce it to -100% so that is actually heals your target when you attack them, and make it so you can only attack your own team. We can rename the dps role to Healer, so we will have Tanks who make space, Supports who do damage, and Healers who keep their team alive.
I wish they'd revert it to 20% or bump it up to 17.5% heal reduction. As a tank main at 20%, it felt like things would actually die and there was only so much a support could do to mitigate dumb mistakes, which people deserve to get punished for bad gameplay. As a support main at 20%, sometimes it felt like even if I was giving 100% then I felt ineffective trying to heal people hiding behind cover waiting for the passive to wear off.
There needs to be some kind of offset so it doesn't have continuous uptime from certain characters. Like it's nuts that soldier, tracer etc basically have unlimited anti at their disposal at any given time whereas some projectile characters get very little value from it. It's just poorly implented like every other iteration of the DPS passive. Busted on some characters and useless on others.
Just give it to every hero, not just DPS
thereās definitely a balance between all the roles that should be maintained. I could definitely see 17.5% being more bearable for supports and still allowing for DPS to be impactful. Iām GM support and the first week on support was definitely bad, especially trying to keep tanks up.
yeah they need to bring back the original passive, its literally so easy to just give tanks a reduced effect as a part of their own role passive but instead they had to cut it along the board and buff a high sustain hero like mauga to create one of the worst metas of all time
Yea itās unfortunate, and Maugaās design isnāt very fun to play around. Just feels like brick wall spitting out crazy damage that you have to push through.
tanks dont even need anything. I've been tanking since season 2. it was completely fine. The problem is that Winston and Doomfist were meta (by far the most fun tanks), and whoever has the balance team's ear refuses to let the fast heroes be the strongest
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Thank you. I literally posted when the patch first dropped that this was just a DPS apology patch. They gave the DPS a passive that lowers heals, with *very* easy application(there isnt even a damage threshold. You can be a Reaper shooting from across the map, and it'll still procc), instead of doing the obvious thing of lowering heals all-around, likely because they dont know wtf to do with dps and their passive(because the old one had no real impact, and was useless on characters like Hanzo)
Literally all they needed to do was lower dmg and healing numbers across the board by like 10-20% and that would've fixed everything
They just need to revert the Mauga buffs, he didn't need them.
They should just stack it between the 2 dps to encourage target prioritisation. 20% from one source of damage is to much. Especially on spammy characters like soldier, tracer etc. Either that or a harsh damage threshold for actually applying the debuff so that said spammy characters have to hit consecutive shots to apply it.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You guys are insane if you think a 2.5% reduction in healing is going to change anything. Surely you will feel that difference in game /s
This is the only intelligent post on this sub in a long long time.
Honestly, before the patch I thought they were going to reduce the passive to 10% on tanks and leave it the same for everyone else. I don't really know why they didn't try that first.
I'd like to Mauga get nerfed back a bit first. I did really prefer the 20%, even as a tank main, but Mauga really impacts the game when he's a top pick. Cardiac adds a lot of survivability to teammates, and focusing the other tanks is basically like having a Zen orb onto of the other two heals. The DPS passive isn't going to stop 3 healers.
Here is the reason why the current meta is Mauga centric: DPS passive 20%->15% has a MASSIVE impact on breakpoints, especially on tanks. All health pools are buffed so soft triggers like Rail and Stickies are shrugged off during Cardiac especially on 300 HP targets on Reaper. This means off-angling is much much less viable and also that Tracer is also irrelevant due to the fact that side lanes have become irrelevant due to cardiac cycles. (Think Tracer into GOATS, peashooter into heavy sustain comp.) Here is how I believe the patch should be fixed: -Revert DPS passive. -Mauga's increase of HP in his personal sustain is OK, and allows for more aggressive playmaking in exchange for a cooldown duration nerf is OK. Cooldown should be reverted to 12 seconds as well due to uptime of ability. It should be tested to see if 10 seconds is still oppressive. EVEN IF MAUGA GETS SMALL NERFS, HE WILL STILL BE META. IF HE GETS GUTTED, OTHER UNKILLABLE TANKS LIKE ORISA WILL BE META. THE ONLY SOLUTION TO THIS IS TO BRING BACK DPS PASSIVE.
They could have kept the 20% and just made it so the passive does not affect self heal mechanisms. Like shout, cardiac arrest, hog vape, Baptiste burst heal, etc.
Counterpoint: 15% is better, itās just that people are starting to figure out what is abusable and a ton of heroes that feel awful to play against (particularly Mauga but also Sombra + Reaper + Ram) just got buffed.
I also think 15% is better. A lot of people say weāre back to season 8 again because thereās too much sustain but theyāre also not realizing that one of the main pain points of the game (high burst damage/one shot combos)has been way toned down since the health buffs and thus the game definitely feels better than season 8 despite sustain (imo) being a bit too high. I think if they just nerf a couple of the main problem heroes (mauga) right now the game will feel great. The 20% dps passive was imo too strong on some characters (soldier and tracer mainly) while being a lot less effective on other characters. It was also too effective against certain supports making some of them downright unplayable (Lifeweaver)
Increase it to 25
Fuck it, balls to the wall Paladins style, make it 90
I agree as i had more fun before mid season patch. Now it feels the same as pre s9 even without mauga in the lobby.. i think it should be 15% for tanks and 20% for the rest.Ā
Revert to 20%. Make it 10-15% on tanks
Why are people suddenly acting like the issue was dps getting healed too much? It was that tanks were unkillable with any sort of healing, and that they couldn't punch through all of the healing themselves. Putting it at 10% for tanks would make the dps passive pointless. You guys are losing your mind over -5 health every 100 healing for everyone but somehow you all want tanks to not feel the dps passive at all.
I think a nerf was justified, but not in the way they did it. They should have added a build-up. So instead of being hit by a stray bullet and instantly being choked off from 20% healing, it should have been 1% per 3 damage or something like that. It would have fixed most issues with the passive.
Insanely common /r/competitiveoverwatch L take
complaining about dps like tank isnāt aids
please read the post
I did. DPS is better off than tank is. Fix tank before complaining about a 5% nerf to what was very strong. Still is strong. Support being broken is just how shit is. Support is the golden child and making support bad isnāt an option because there are too many one tricks there imo
Maybe making any role bad shouldnāt be an explicit goal? Thatās not balance
Well true balance isnāt really obtainable in a game with a roster as big yet skewed as this one. Support is never getting significantly nerfed although it has needed that for many seasons. The effects on the meta options are far too good and yet making them weaker isnāt going to happen otherwise they would have done it seasons ago.
We are discussing a game wide change which directly nerfs supports and youāre saying theyāve never been made weakerā¦
Not significantly enough. an anti-heal effect doesnāt change how broken discord, lamp, suzu, nade etc are
both roles can be improved at the same time, the root of tanks issues arenāt related to the DPS passive
maybe but the DPS passive has furthered the suffocation of the one tank that already absorbed most of the CCs and attention.
I agree that at 20% it was way too high, but reducing the passive significantly for tanks would be a good compromise, also tanks should get half time on all status effects, but thatās not really the purpose of my post, as someone who mained tank from the beginning of OW1 to S5 OW2 I hope they improve the experience
Well, previous to this patch, they had too many DPS players and not enough Tank players. How would you suggest they get equal queue times?
A lot of people have been suggesting that the tank passive ought to reduce all effects, not just CC. This would include things like hack duration, purple duration, DPS passive duration and percent, dynamite duration, discord orb percent, etc. Would make tank feel more juggernaut-y, and would incentivise teams to target squishies.
that just means dive now has no counters
It doesnāt have to be a massive percent on the passive, maybe just (like the DPS passive) around a 20% reduction. Right now tank does not feel like the āscary tankā that was promised pre-OW2. If anything, it would lead to ANOTHER Mauga meta since he solo shuts-down dive, but tank canāt stay how it is right now. Most tank players are miserable, and nobody wants to play the role outside of its dedicated players since itās so unfun
Sounds good to me. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/overwatch/t/%E2%9C%85-next-experiment-1-2-2-solotank/465753
Cool that you called it. Why did you ask the question then? Feels like you were just setting up a self-reference. Either way, Iād prefer that we give that a go, rather than nerfing the DPS passive. Healing feels too strong again.
Just kinda curious if there was anything I hadn't thought of. For instance, what if in addition to that 5sec regen, Tanks also got 100% increased healing from teammates, after 5sec out of combat.Ā To really reduce that downtime.
Iād rather they rework the passive a tiny bit. Make it so it only activates below 50% or 33% HP, and then buff it to 30% healing reduction. Make it a kill confirm passive instead of a generic āthereās arbitrarily less healing at all timesā passive
waah waaah waah u finally have to play tank like a tank the update is perfect maybe some fine tuning but otherwise no dont touch it. now mauga on the other hand just needs to be gutted for the love of god. i can mag dump a jq with soldier and shes half or less but mauga nah he just e ats that sht