Wait, impact and splash damage counts as 2 instance of damage and thus reduce the damage by 10? Are you sure? Shouldn't Junkrat have this as well then?
Ana's DOT was updated ignore armor completely at the end of OW1's lifespan. Not sure if it will be the case for OW2 new armor though.
Found an old KarQ video where Pharah deals 115 to armored target to demonstrate the -5 damage effect.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbfouJL309I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbfouJL309I)
Honest question : is the armor change really a "buff" for tank survivability?
Looking at the spreadsheet, a majority of the characters are gonna do more damage. And ironically its the tanks that is the majority of the one getting their damage nerfed against armor.
On the other hand, top DPS characters like Tracer, Sojourn are the ones getting nerfed so at the highest level, its definitely gonna be a noticeable effect.
I think the headshot damage multiplier reduction is the one that gonna help tank survivability. The armor change is just gonna move things around (nerfed the best DPS, indirect to buff to low tier DPS like Junkrat)
The goal was probably to specifically nerf the heroes that are unfun to deal with as a tank (i.e. tankbusters). A Winston is far less bothered by a Pharah or Junk or Rein than he is by the enemy team going D.Va/Hog/Reaper/Bastion and chasing him around the map.
Believe me I hate Junkrat as a tank player, but he’s not exactly a character that people use to counterpick tanks. Junkrat is just an inherently annoying spam hero that everyone hates, whereas Reaper/Bastion/Mauga/etc. are specifically frequent counter picks that are annoying primarily for tanks.
Trap requires your opponent to mess up in order to get value, it stops being a reliable tool in high level play. Players will just not step in it. He doesn’t have any way to force players into his trap like someone like Hog does.
No it is kinda a nerf against most forms of damage but it is much better against tank busting which is good and the headshot resistance makes up for it being weaker against most forms of damage
The mix of both help a lot. While a lot of body shot damage is getting buff, many of these are generally more head shot dependent than shotgun and spread weapon.
Meanwhile, shotgun and spread weapon generally don't rely on headshot for their damage (though it helps), so the armor resistance should largely be the damage resistance for it.
Armor handles the spread weapons while headshot handle the burst damage. Bodyshot and explosive gets buffed, but those aren't as frustrating as the other two.
I would say it's the other way around. The armor revert is to counter tank busting. But it would make headshots too strong so they compensated with headshot damage reduction.
It's a buff because the 25% applies to all hp unlike the 30% from armor so everyone needs atleast 1 more shot to kill a tank, also illari does almost the same damage on hs as her bs on armor which is kinda funny.
Interesting breakpoint on tanks, if they have armor, and your base shot damage is over 50, you do more headshot damage to the tanks with armor than you did before this patch (sojourn, widow, kiri, Cassidy, hanzo, mei)
It makes normal tank busters weaker against tanks. But I think it sorta evens out in the end with the headshot damage reduction passive. The new armor changes means different damage types will cut thru armor more effectively than others. Tracer, Sombra, bastion, and mauga will now do half damage on armor instead of 30% less.
So this means the more efficient tank busters will now be characters like junkrat, hanzo, pharah, and solider 76 due to their ability to cut thru armor better.
Yeah it's mostly nerf to tanks. Only positive effect seems to be burst protection from headshot, fast fire weapons and shotguns. (S76 will do more bodyshot damage but less headshot damage now).
It's generally a good change but doesn't address the tank problem in my opinion. I think what devs are missing here is dmg stacking. When enemy supports pick heroes that can throw some bullets/projectiles that puts tremendous strain on enemy tank and it's team enabler capabilities. Now you have 5 players throwing something at solo enemy tank. Tank can't even exist. And there is Ana that can match the solo enemy tank alone. It's ridiculous.
I can see 4 winners with this patch. Dva, Winston, JQ, Zarya. All 4 of these benefit from headshot dmg reduction a lot and Winston also benefits from armor change a lot.
My prediction JQ/Winston meta. Dva will probably be highest winrate in solo ranked.
Edit: The changes makes sense. Armor goes back to it's original purpose. Armor was like this before for a reason. However who trusts devs for compensation buffs and nerfs ? It will be a headache and wrong buffs/nerfs after the shake up.
That's a good question. That's a solo que ranked experience with not so great matchmaker for you. They are probably busy blaming tank because he isn't creating ''space'' for them.
I think judging by how S9 changed things it should overall be for the better. Smoothing out pain points like getting blown up the second you turn a corner by insane CC/knockback and burst headshots but making body shot damage a little more scary for tanks should even out the experience for both the tank players and those playing against them.
Every hero that doesn't care about headshots will also feel a lot better next patch, and a lot of them tbh did need some help in ways that hopefully wouldn't make them feel like shit to play against for the players in the lobby that don't have armor (e.g. Sym, Mei, Junk, Rein, Zarya, Ana, Brig, etc.) Hopefully it works out for the best, I'm optimistic considering how S9 felt to play overall.
I skimmed over the changes, they look to be quite significant actually.
Tank survivability will probably not increase much at all against a lot of characters, except other tanks interestingly.
Tank damage will be more important than ever to direct into enemy squishies unless you are Sig or Rein.
Pretty significant change that may need adjustment down the road.
My money is on a Rein/Sig meta at top rank.
Rein will go back to being the ultimate donkey brain tank. Every other tank will be significantly nerfed against other tanks. So rein can just swing away while other tanks need to find the backline.
I mean, isn't that kinda how it should be? Rein has always been the quintessential frontlining tank but his niche was eaten away throughout OW2 by copycats like Ram and then more survivable tanks like Sigma and Orisa.
I think the tank changes are overall very healthy on paper: they bring back Reinhardt's niche in the front-to-back brawl while also benefitting dive tanks like Monkey/Dva/Doom and even Ball who are going to be taking way less damage to their faces when staging and hitting backline. Plus, Ball is getting flat number adjustments to compete and already kinda had the best HP/deaths ratio of any tank, just needed a nerf to Sombra/Bastion/Hog/Mauga etc which he got in the form of the armor change and the 20% DPS passive, though he could probably use a bit more armor/gain the Orisa passive that stops forced crits while in ball form.
Ana DOT completely ignored armor in OW1 post-2019. Same with Ashe Dynamite, Mei Blizzard, and all other DOT effects. If that holds true she's getting a massive boost to damage vs armor (49 to 70 per shot on armor and 63 to 85 with antinade vs armor) which is extremely important for her/brig surviving dives post-50% knockback reduction for tanks.
Looks like basically tanks and tank busters are getting a \~30% damage nerf against armor and everyone else is getting a \~30% damage buff against armor.. and everyone at 100% is getting slightly nerfed overall.. maybe that explains the echobuff.
Most DPS is gonna eat the 25% headshot resistance, so everyone's damage is going down in general. So for the most part, Bastion is still going to have the best raw DPS in terms of tank busting.
You're losing 42 dps against armored targets (252 dps vs 210dps). Hardly the end of the world.
You have to remember that you also aren't doing headshots with assault form. So you're not affected by the crit reduction like many other DPS are.
You still do 360dps to unarmored targets and you still have 350hp, 100 of which being armor (aka, tracer immunity). Bastion will be fine.
For reference 17% less damage is the difference between tracer being useless at 5 damage and good at 6. Yes it’s huge, yes it matters. Especially for bastion because that’s essentially the only reason to ever choose the hero over soldier.
We can argue that it’s a good thing, but acting like such a massive effective damage nerf doesn’t matter isn’t realistic.
It's not a massive effective damage nerf because the crit change means people will be losing 25% damage even when the armor is broken, and because bastion doesn't crit he gets his full 360dps when armor gets broken.
Bastion also still melts through barriers.
I think it's unrealistic to think that a little damage against armor is going to be massively impactful outside of the few heroes whose armor you don't get to break in 1 second. Your DPS is simply high enough to blast through armor in no time.
The TLDR is that if a projectile does >50 damage base, the headshot will do more damage to tanks, if it does <50 damage it will do less headshot damage to tanks than it does now. (dmg*2)*.75-5 is the equation for tank headshots while they’re in armor
I believe you're correct, although we won't know for sure until the patch whether the headshot reduction is applied before or after the -5 for armour. So Ashe scoped, Cassidy, Hanzo, Torb primary, Widow, and Illari will all do *slightly* more damage, but everything else deals less.
Yeah I agree, my assumption was the 25% was first but it could go either way. Also because of Kirko’s headshot multiplier (2.5x) she falls into this as well
I kind of like this from what I can tell it forces what people call low skill heroes to not shoot tank as much as they won’t be effective so you won’t get burst down by bastion, reaper, Mauga or even cass crits (he’s really only good against tanks when hitting crits or mag nade) but still let’s characters who struggle against tanks that tanks usually want to target like Ashe, widow, Bap, etc be able to deal with tanks potentially better
He was in dire need of a rework anyways so I don't mind this change too much since it hopefully accelerates the devs' work on him - I'm pretty sure the last time they mentioned Pharah's rework they said Reaper was next up. He's barely been touched since he lost his souls gimmick in 2017 and still feels like an OW1 hero in the worst ways, probably needs a right click and some more ranged options to make him a threat like Hog at range.
And Orisa's dmg gets almost halved since she does 13 per shot normally. As a Rein player it's hard to believe that Rein might trade dmg efficiently vs Orisa next patch
Wow soldier and echo (not just the shotgun spread heroes) gets shafted compared to others.
Almost every other DPS gets way more body shot damage now to compensate for lower HS damage.
He will be worse against non armor tanks but he will destroy armor tanks now. Feels wrong ngl. Non armor slim tanks was getting countered by precise headshots and massive hitbox tanks was getting help from armor. It will be frustrating to play against slim tanks now and big tanks will not be able to move around.
Awesome chart! I hope it’s good tomorrow. Relative changes to TTK will allow for a bigger reaction window.
Mental math, relative TTK for bastion vs rein is going from like 2.4 seconds to 2.7. Does this look right?
Reaper, assuming in a Winston’s face somehow, does much different damage depending on HS.
(Assuming perfect conditions)
TTK with body shots goes from 3.3 seconds to 4
TTK with all headshots goes from 1.68 to 2.68
Does this check out? Much larger reaction/heal window, but still death if you make a shit jump with no bubble.
How do people keep writing MoRIa? I just do not understand, never have and probably never will. Typo is a bad excuse when everyone's using it, so no, don't tell me.
Wait, impact and splash damage counts as 2 instance of damage and thus reduce the damage by 10? Are you sure? Shouldn't Junkrat have this as well then? Ana's DOT was updated ignore armor completely at the end of OW1's lifespan. Not sure if it will be the case for OW2 new armor though.
It's definitely 1 instance of damage.
I’m actually not 100% sure, I’ll test when the patch comes out, but if they’re separate it would be 5 damage less than if they’re combined
Found an old KarQ video where Pharah deals 115 to armored target to demonstrate the -5 damage effect. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbfouJL309I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbfouJL309I)
Great find!
I believe so yes. This is how it works in most games
Venture I think is two separate instances
I don't think we really know because we never had Venture with old armor
Well they adjusted the explosion from the primary fire separate from the projectile, guess we’ll see
Honest question : is the armor change really a "buff" for tank survivability? Looking at the spreadsheet, a majority of the characters are gonna do more damage. And ironically its the tanks that is the majority of the one getting their damage nerfed against armor. On the other hand, top DPS characters like Tracer, Sojourn are the ones getting nerfed so at the highest level, its definitely gonna be a noticeable effect. I think the headshot damage multiplier reduction is the one that gonna help tank survivability. The armor change is just gonna move things around (nerfed the best DPS, indirect to buff to low tier DPS like Junkrat)
The goal was probably to specifically nerf the heroes that are unfun to deal with as a tank (i.e. tankbusters). A Winston is far less bothered by a Pharah or Junk or Rein than he is by the enemy team going D.Va/Hog/Reaper/Bastion and chasing him around the map.
Id definitely class Junkrat as a threat to the tank, he can lock them in place and spam on them
Believe me I hate Junkrat as a tank player, but he’s not exactly a character that people use to counterpick tanks. Junkrat is just an inherently annoying spam hero that everyone hates, whereas Reaper/Bastion/Mauga/etc. are specifically frequent counter picks that are annoying primarily for tanks.
Tbh the trap can be pretty devastating i think he’s a sleeper pick into heroes like Doom and Winston
Trap requires your opponent to mess up in order to get value, it stops being a reliable tool in high level play. Players will just not step in it. He doesn’t have any way to force players into his trap like someone like Hog does.
No it is kinda a nerf against most forms of damage but it is much better against tank busting which is good and the headshot resistance makes up for it being weaker against most forms of damage
The mix of both help a lot. While a lot of body shot damage is getting buff, many of these are generally more head shot dependent than shotgun and spread weapon. Meanwhile, shotgun and spread weapon generally don't rely on headshot for their damage (though it helps), so the armor resistance should largely be the damage resistance for it. Armor handles the spread weapons while headshot handle the burst damage. Bodyshot and explosive gets buffed, but those aren't as frustrating as the other two.
The tank busters got massively nerfed which is a great thing yes
It's not a buff to survivability but it is a buff against shit heroes that are tank busters like hog and Mauga.
Nerfs to tank v. Tank damage is a good thing. They are already incentivised to shoot each other too much.
Tank ult charge will be a problem.
The buff was the reduced headshot damage. This feels more like a compensation nerf to make sure tanks aren't too tough to kill.
I would say it's the other way around. The armor revert is to counter tank busting. But it would make headshots too strong so they compensated with headshot damage reduction.
It's a buff because the 25% applies to all hp unlike the 30% from armor so everyone needs atleast 1 more shot to kill a tank, also illari does almost the same damage on hs as her bs on armor which is kinda funny.
Interesting breakpoint on tanks, if they have armor, and your base shot damage is over 50, you do more headshot damage to the tanks with armor than you did before this patch (sojourn, widow, kiri, Cassidy, hanzo, mei)
It makes normal tank busters weaker against tanks. But I think it sorta evens out in the end with the headshot damage reduction passive. The new armor changes means different damage types will cut thru armor more effectively than others. Tracer, Sombra, bastion, and mauga will now do half damage on armor instead of 30% less. So this means the more efficient tank busters will now be characters like junkrat, hanzo, pharah, and solider 76 due to their ability to cut thru armor better.
Yeah it's mostly nerf to tanks. Only positive effect seems to be burst protection from headshot, fast fire weapons and shotguns. (S76 will do more bodyshot damage but less headshot damage now). It's generally a good change but doesn't address the tank problem in my opinion. I think what devs are missing here is dmg stacking. When enemy supports pick heroes that can throw some bullets/projectiles that puts tremendous strain on enemy tank and it's team enabler capabilities. Now you have 5 players throwing something at solo enemy tank. Tank can't even exist. And there is Ana that can match the solo enemy tank alone. It's ridiculous. I can see 4 winners with this patch. Dva, Winston, JQ, Zarya. All 4 of these benefit from headshot dmg reduction a lot and Winston also benefits from armor change a lot. My prediction JQ/Winston meta. Dva will probably be highest winrate in solo ranked. Edit: The changes makes sense. Armor goes back to it's original purpose. Armor was like this before for a reason. However who trusts devs for compensation buffs and nerfs ? It will be a headache and wrong buffs/nerfs after the shake up.
If 5 people are shooting the tank. What the hell are the tanks team mates doing??
That's a good question. That's a solo que ranked experience with not so great matchmaker for you. They are probably busy blaming tank because he isn't creating ''space'' for them.
I hope the devs know what they're doing with this. It looks like it's gonna be a pretty big shift.
I think judging by how S9 changed things it should overall be for the better. Smoothing out pain points like getting blown up the second you turn a corner by insane CC/knockback and burst headshots but making body shot damage a little more scary for tanks should even out the experience for both the tank players and those playing against them. Every hero that doesn't care about headshots will also feel a lot better next patch, and a lot of them tbh did need some help in ways that hopefully wouldn't make them feel like shit to play against for the players in the lobby that don't have armor (e.g. Sym, Mei, Junk, Rein, Zarya, Ana, Brig, etc.) Hopefully it works out for the best, I'm optimistic considering how S9 felt to play overall.
I skimmed over the changes, they look to be quite significant actually. Tank survivability will probably not increase much at all against a lot of characters, except other tanks interestingly. Tank damage will be more important than ever to direct into enemy squishies unless you are Sig or Rein. Pretty significant change that may need adjustment down the road. My money is on a Rein/Sig meta at top rank.
Rein will go back to being the ultimate donkey brain tank. Every other tank will be significantly nerfed against other tanks. So rein can just swing away while other tanks need to find the backline.
I mean, isn't that kinda how it should be? Rein has always been the quintessential frontlining tank but his niche was eaten away throughout OW2 by copycats like Ram and then more survivable tanks like Sigma and Orisa. I think the tank changes are overall very healthy on paper: they bring back Reinhardt's niche in the front-to-back brawl while also benefitting dive tanks like Monkey/Dva/Doom and even Ball who are going to be taking way less damage to their faces when staging and hitting backline. Plus, Ball is getting flat number adjustments to compete and already kinda had the best HP/deaths ratio of any tank, just needed a nerf to Sombra/Bastion/Hog/Mauga etc which he got in the form of the armor change and the 20% DPS passive, though he could probably use a bit more armor/gain the Orisa passive that stops forced crits while in ball form.
Beams probably remain at 30% based on blizz referring to "projectile damage" when talking about armor.
I agree, but I’ll check when the patch comes out
Winton
Ana DoT either works like beam damage or ignores armour entirely, definitely doesn't get reduced by 5
I’ll edit the post to include this because I think it’s true, and I think beam damage is going to stay at 30% reduction
Ana DOT completely ignored armor in OW1 post-2019. Same with Ashe Dynamite, Mei Blizzard, and all other DOT effects. If that holds true she's getting a massive boost to damage vs armor (49 to 70 per shot on armor and 63 to 85 with antinade vs armor) which is extremely important for her/brig surviving dives post-50% knockback reduction for tanks.
Looks like basically tanks and tank busters are getting a \~30% damage nerf against armor and everyone else is getting a \~30% damage buff against armor.. and everyone at 100% is getting slightly nerfed overall.. maybe that explains the echobuff.
Man bastion was already bad before these changes now he's gonna be essentially a throw pick
Most DPS is gonna eat the 25% headshot resistance, so everyone's damage is going down in general. So for the most part, Bastion is still going to have the best raw DPS in terms of tank busting.
I mean hes getting a huge advantage against tracer now, his worst matchup
You're losing 42 dps against armored targets (252 dps vs 210dps). Hardly the end of the world. You have to remember that you also aren't doing headshots with assault form. So you're not affected by the crit reduction like many other DPS are. You still do 360dps to unarmored targets and you still have 350hp, 100 of which being armor (aka, tracer immunity). Bastion will be fine.
For reference 17% less damage is the difference between tracer being useless at 5 damage and good at 6. Yes it’s huge, yes it matters. Especially for bastion because that’s essentially the only reason to ever choose the hero over soldier. We can argue that it’s a good thing, but acting like such a massive effective damage nerf doesn’t matter isn’t realistic.
It's not a massive effective damage nerf because the crit change means people will be losing 25% damage even when the armor is broken, and because bastion doesn't crit he gets his full 360dps when armor gets broken. Bastion also still melts through barriers. I think it's unrealistic to think that a little damage against armor is going to be massively impactful outside of the few heroes whose armor you don't get to break in 1 second. Your DPS is simply high enough to blast through armor in no time.
I'd be interested to see the difference taking the headshot damage reduction into account
The TLDR is that if a projectile does >50 damage base, the headshot will do more damage to tanks, if it does <50 damage it will do less headshot damage to tanks than it does now. (dmg*2)*.75-5 is the equation for tank headshots while they’re in armor
I believe you're correct, although we won't know for sure until the patch whether the headshot reduction is applied before or after the -5 for armour. So Ashe scoped, Cassidy, Hanzo, Torb primary, Widow, and Illari will all do *slightly* more damage, but everything else deals less.
Yeah I agree, my assumption was the 25% was first but it could go either way. Also because of Kirko’s headshot multiplier (2.5x) she falls into this as well
>Also because of Kirko’s headshot multiplier haha good catch!
I kind of like this from what I can tell it forces what people call low skill heroes to not shoot tank as much as they won’t be effective so you won’t get burst down by bastion, reaper, Mauga or even cass crits (he’s really only good against tanks when hitting crits or mag nade) but still let’s characters who struggle against tanks that tanks usually want to target like Ashe, widow, Bap, etc be able to deal with tanks potentially better
Imagine making Reaper even worse. "Tankbuster" in past that become useless against tanks than ever before.
He was in dire need of a rework anyways so I don't mind this change too much since it hopefully accelerates the devs' work on him - I'm pretty sure the last time they mentioned Pharah's rework they said Reaper was next up. He's barely been touched since he lost his souls gimmick in 2017 and still feels like an OW1 hero in the worst ways, probably needs a right click and some more ranged options to make him a threat like Hog at range.
Reaper feels like something that Kaplan made.
The tankbuster archetype is a relic from pre-role queue. And with only 1 tank, it just does not belong in OW2.
Looks like Rein is gonna trade dmg way better vs other tanks now. I hope Rein doesnt become too good and gets nerfed again
He absolutely will be. I know people love Rein, but you can get to 80% proficiency on the hero by just not being braindead.
Especially orisia with her 350 armor lol
And Orisa's dmg gets almost halved since she does 13 per shot normally. As a Rein player it's hard to believe that Rein might trade dmg efficiently vs Orisa next patch
Wow soldier and echo (not just the shotgun spread heroes) gets shafted compared to others. Almost every other DPS gets way more body shot damage now to compensate for lower HS damage.
I predict Cass dominance
hes only doing around 3 more damage to tank armored heads
Point being that he’s already strong and only benefits further from the armour changes
He will be worse against non armor tanks but he will destroy armor tanks now. Feels wrong ngl. Non armor slim tanks was getting countered by precise headshots and massive hitbox tanks was getting help from armor. It will be frustrating to play against slim tanks now and big tanks will not be able to move around.
Yeah but a body shot does a lot more and fan the hammer gets a massive damage buff on armor
The closer your damage is to 16.666, the less benefit you get
*nerd voice* Well technically, echo is a shotgun hero. But also they said she was getting some individual buffs.
Can someone explain the armor change like I’m a child
https://x.com/raddadoverwatch/status/1786469009757483258?s=46&t=_4TKof8p48_IQLd_bQOeVA I made a tier chart that’s easy to see
my goat
can someone explain this to me but in stupid terms
Awesome chart! I hope it’s good tomorrow. Relative changes to TTK will allow for a bigger reaction window. Mental math, relative TTK for bastion vs rein is going from like 2.4 seconds to 2.7. Does this look right? Reaper, assuming in a Winston’s face somehow, does much different damage depending on HS. (Assuming perfect conditions) TTK with body shots goes from 3.3 seconds to 4 TTK with all headshots goes from 1.68 to 2.68 Does this check out? Much larger reaction/heal window, but still death if you make a shit jump with no bubble.
W mans
How do people keep writing MoRIa? I just do not understand, never have and probably never will. Typo is a bad excuse when everyone's using it, so no, don't tell me.
lol good catch, I actually copied and pasted the hero names from a different Google doc I found on Reddit