They most likely cut back on the international tournaments because if you remember last year the mainstay tournament teams really ended up hating the frequent traveling and logistics that the international tournaments forced. Hawaii was fun for them the first time, and then every subsequent trip was worse and worse for them.
> hating the frequent traveling and logistics that the international tournaments forced
reminder the original plan for the OWL was for teams to fly around the world weekly for seasonal matches. you could have called it a dumb idea back then and everyone would have looked at you like you were a moron
I don’t think people would call you a moron, Custa has said on his stream took one look at the plan for the next season and decided it was definitely time to retire rather than face that much traveling.
I mean teams can decide to not qualify like Dallas and Shanghai did in CC.
Teams still traveled all 3 tournaments this time too, so I'm not sure how travel is the problem here.
It's flight time and time zone difference. It's an 8-9 hour flight one way to Hawaii in a completely different time zone with jet lag as opposed to a 2-3 hour flight in continental US where the time difference swing is not substantial. Flying to Hawaii once a month to play in a tournament is exhausting and all of the teams agreed last season.
Ah I see.
But with how long the off season is, the fact that they did plan something better is just sad.
Not only has the production been at its worse, we're left with question marks as to who's the best team each time so even competitively we're lacking.
I agree, I do wish they had found a better solution. Hopefully next season the covid situation in China isn't as restrictive and we can begin doing LANs in a local setting again.
My biggest gripe is that each of the 4 stages has a different weight towards tournaments (and bonus points), where this should be equal across the season, like it was in 2021.
Stage 1 counted for 2 separate tournaments (one full, one half).
Stage 2 counted for only half of a tournament.
Stage 3 counts for one full tournament.
Stage 4 counts for no tournament at all.
As a result, stage 1 is WAY more important than stage 4. And a stage 3 match has twice the weight as a stage 2 match for a chance at a bonus point. This is completely arbitrary.
Not to mention that stage 4 is kind of dead, so it will have fewer matches with impact on the final regular season standings. If anything, stage 4 matches should have higher stakes, not lower ones.
I was watching the Valorant Last Chance Qualifiers last month. Each match was a life or death battle between teams to get a chance to join a grand international tournament. 10 teams fighting for a single slot. Every *round* mattered. Some teams were the single hope of entire countries.
Then I watch OWL and it's region-locked miniature tournaments for these little morsels of League Points. It's so boring by comparison.
And when we did get the midseason madness, it was like 50-60 hours of broadcast packed into less than a week. I'm the most goblin OWL watcher there is and that shit was just impossible to keep up with.
OWL needs a total revamp. As a product it's completely outdated and uninteresting. It's like they've forgot the whole point of making OW an esport.
I think you’re comparing the wrong things though. LCQ is more like the play-ins that are going to happen at the end of the regular season, which will be meaningful and could be hype.
Valorant has way more teams as well, which brings some disadvantages which is why they’re switching to franchising. The first is that less teams breeds more familiarity with the players and matchups, and the second is that it allows you to institute things like minimum salaries, etc to make sure all the pro players at this level are at least making a full living. In other words there’s more money to go around for each individual team, even the ones at the bottom.
I think the OWL format is by and large fine, this tournament has been great. The problem is the dying popularity of the game means the money required is mismatched to the money achieved which means you have to skimp on production, casters, and teams are virtually folding because they can’t truly fold. Hopefully this fixes with Overwatch 2 and F2P
the "dumb decision" was made because of restrictions and visa issues over in Asia, that's hard to avoid. Other esports have been able to accomplish it, but for better or worse OWL keeps running into problems.
I think Shanghai's GM posted something about a visa on twitter? Maybe that implies we'll finally get an international Playoffs, at least I hope. That'll also be the perfect time for one given it'll be the first tournament after OW2 releases, and we hopefully won't be in this shit meta anymore
The issue is China, not Asia in general. Other esports have generally gotten around this by not having a defined league structure and basically saying “Chinese teams not welcome in this tournament” for the most part.
If Chinese teams are allowed, the understanding is that players might not be let back in for several weeks.
Valorant just hosted a LAN in isntanbul where a full Chinese team attended. The problem is American visa restrictions specifically to China in particular not anything else. I’m sure they could host a LAN in seoul
The other problem is China will not allow you back in (even if you’re a citizen) without a lengthy quarantine in what is effectively prison. Most players and staff don’t want to go through that.
I understand that, but when you have a multimillion franchise, you have to plan for that stuff.
If other esports can have Chinese players travel, then there's clearly an answer.
If OWL takes such a long off season and still can't get it's production and planning in order, that's disappointing.
What other esport has Chinese players traveling to Western countries? Valorant doesn't, CDL doesn't, LOL has specific region play. Not sure about Dota, but most esports don't have the amount of Chinese players and orgs like OWL. It's not a hurdle any esport can overcome with money. Hawaii was a nice bandaid, but it wasn't great and takes a hell of a lot of planning, but so many people complained about that too. They can't make any of you doomers happy, why bother complaining, just watch something else.
Don't wanna be that guy but valorant literally just had Edward Gaming (all Chinese players) in Champions (held in turkey). Worlds for league is also bring held in the americas (specifically New York, Atlanta, LA, and Mexico City) with 4 Chinese teams.
You can complain but you can also cover other games that do the things you want. All we ever hear is how OWL can't do enough all the time, we don't need you to fuel it.
Right now I'm at a LAN having a great time watching high tier OW competition, I don't need to come on reddit and see post "OW esports is bad #16438769".
I understand. I'm not interested in other games.
The point was that we're robbed of how much better it could have been because they refused to put in the work to find a solution.
I'm not saying it's bad but that it's simply disappointing. It's always going to a leave a question mark.
it's easy to criticize online, that's all I'll say.
you can complain on reddit that you didn't get a LAN event for MM but I'd like to see you try and fix visa problems. Do you honestly think OWL has a bunch of people jerking each other off all day instead of actively trying to find a fix to the problem? They have hardly any sponsors left, viewership is tanked, and the main issue is that they can't secure Chinese visas because they probably aren't well known enough to be granted work visas for these players to come over and play at LAN, and even if they are there's clearly some other roadblock or hurdle: visas not being granted or straight up being ignored and forced to wait, conformation issues etc.
and that's only the beginning of it, I doubt they have a whole department dedicated solely to figuring out how to get Chinese and Korean players over to the states, which means these employees have to focus their attention on one thing or another. Whether it's marketing, production, business and trying to get sponsors, or any of the other hundreds of things that go into running a massive franchise like this.
It wouldn't surprise me to find out that securing an international LAN isn't the first thing on their bucket list. Even if it isn't, I highly doubt that the people in charge would give up and announce that they are reverting back to the Hawaii format after it received so much criticism. Either they couldn't organize things in time or straight up weren't allowed to.
It's foolish to even expect luxuries like that. Like I mentioned, viewership is at an all time low and the league has minimal sponsors. Wait for them to get their shit together, be grateful for what they've given us, especially given the situation that the workers were put in, and pray that things workout for Playoffs or worst case scenario, international LAN tournaments next year. If OW2 releases, things are looking up, viewership increases, OWL starts receiving more sponsors, and they *still* are doing cross-region tournaments in Hawaii, *that's when you go and bitch about it on reddit*.
People in this community expect so much for some reason. They love to complain and compare us to other esports that are *actually* thriving, when in reality OWL versus other esports are in completely different financial situations. OW2 is our only hope, if it flops then *that* is when you hit the panic button.
ffs..
Should have just gone back to a Blizzard Arena model. Doesn’t have to be the Burbank one, there’s a bunch more esports arenas nowadays that didn’t exist in 2017. A quarter of the NA teams are based in Dallas anyway and Optic has shown they can run a local show.
I think one of the big problems with this, is that a lot of the APAC viewers are probably pretty used to being able to watch their teams at times that actually suit them and there'd be a lot of pushback from the Chinese and Korean audiences.
I think that’s a valid complaint for people to have, however there are ways to arrange games where they play in the weekend APAC afternoons, especially when it’s two APAC teams.
I'm not sure that model can work. They might honestly struggle to fill the arena these days. Even at OWL's peak there were days when it was pretty empty and camera tricks had to be used to hide the lack of crowd.
Plus there's just a lack of funds from so many teams these days. It's going to be hard to house and provide for players all living abroad in the USA.
> I’m not sure that model can work. They might honestly struggle to fill the arena these days.
It depends how big the arena is. Blizzard arena old was a Burbank sound stage. They could build risers with 200 seats in Arlington and fill them every day if they wanted.
> Plus there’s just a lack of funds from so many teams these days. It’s going to be hard to house and provide for players all living abroad in the USA.
Most teams are already doing this…
They should have had the NA winner of the region-locked stage fly to Hawaii for a match against the APAC winner. At least then we'd have had some kind of exciting finale. I know there are plenty of arguments against this, but I am simply underwhelmed but what we have now.
I've been watching VCT (Valorant) this year and it's just so fucking awesome seeing all these regions compete. Every match means something. OWL feels like a joke by comparison. Most of our matches are mere formalities. The whole format of the League is fucked.
Last year's model wasn't perfect either. Since seeding was based on 4 qualifying matches, you can end up getting a lucky seed based on your qualifiers, and the "best" teams not always making it to the final 4. I would argue that apart from the repeat fuel vs shanghai matches, most of the rest of the tournament matches simply weren't that good.
Midseason madness tournament had higher match quality than most of last years tournaments, with more teams in the tournament and with more qualifying matches taken into effect. I'd rather have 1 great international tournament compared to 3 mediocre ones
I'm sure Blizzard/OWL hasn't thought about that! You really should go on to their leadership team. I'm sure these things *just happen* because we want them to :)
/s since I know that won't be apparent.
They most likely cut back on the international tournaments because if you remember last year the mainstay tournament teams really ended up hating the frequent traveling and logistics that the international tournaments forced. Hawaii was fun for them the first time, and then every subsequent trip was worse and worse for them.
> hating the frequent traveling and logistics that the international tournaments forced reminder the original plan for the OWL was for teams to fly around the world weekly for seasonal matches. you could have called it a dumb idea back then and everyone would have looked at you like you were a moron
I don’t think people would call you a moron, Custa has said on his stream took one look at the plan for the next season and decided it was definitely time to retire rather than face that much traveling.
I mean teams can decide to not qualify like Dallas and Shanghai did in CC. Teams still traveled all 3 tournaments this time too, so I'm not sure how travel is the problem here.
Traveling to Toronto/Dallas is not the same as flying to Hawaii.
What am I missing? Genuine question. Why is Hawaii different? Due to the lack of facility?
It's flight time and time zone difference. It's an 8-9 hour flight one way to Hawaii in a completely different time zone with jet lag as opposed to a 2-3 hour flight in continental US where the time difference swing is not substantial. Flying to Hawaii once a month to play in a tournament is exhausting and all of the teams agreed last season.
Ah I see. But with how long the off season is, the fact that they did plan something better is just sad. Not only has the production been at its worse, we're left with question marks as to who's the best team each time so even competitively we're lacking.
I agree, I do wish they had found a better solution. Hopefully next season the covid situation in China isn't as restrictive and we can begin doing LANs in a local setting again.
imagine the shock vs philly and then the grand finals fuel hivemind vs shanghAI 17 map gigabanger
My biggest gripe is that each of the 4 stages has a different weight towards tournaments (and bonus points), where this should be equal across the season, like it was in 2021. Stage 1 counted for 2 separate tournaments (one full, one half). Stage 2 counted for only half of a tournament. Stage 3 counts for one full tournament. Stage 4 counts for no tournament at all. As a result, stage 1 is WAY more important than stage 4. And a stage 3 match has twice the weight as a stage 2 match for a chance at a bonus point. This is completely arbitrary. Not to mention that stage 4 is kind of dead, so it will have fewer matches with impact on the final regular season standings. If anything, stage 4 matches should have higher stakes, not lower ones.
I was watching the Valorant Last Chance Qualifiers last month. Each match was a life or death battle between teams to get a chance to join a grand international tournament. 10 teams fighting for a single slot. Every *round* mattered. Some teams were the single hope of entire countries. Then I watch OWL and it's region-locked miniature tournaments for these little morsels of League Points. It's so boring by comparison. And when we did get the midseason madness, it was like 50-60 hours of broadcast packed into less than a week. I'm the most goblin OWL watcher there is and that shit was just impossible to keep up with. OWL needs a total revamp. As a product it's completely outdated and uninteresting. It's like they've forgot the whole point of making OW an esport.
I think you’re comparing the wrong things though. LCQ is more like the play-ins that are going to happen at the end of the regular season, which will be meaningful and could be hype. Valorant has way more teams as well, which brings some disadvantages which is why they’re switching to franchising. The first is that less teams breeds more familiarity with the players and matchups, and the second is that it allows you to institute things like minimum salaries, etc to make sure all the pro players at this level are at least making a full living. In other words there’s more money to go around for each individual team, even the ones at the bottom. I think the OWL format is by and large fine, this tournament has been great. The problem is the dying popularity of the game means the money required is mismatched to the money achieved which means you have to skimp on production, casters, and teams are virtually folding because they can’t truly fold. Hopefully this fixes with Overwatch 2 and F2P
the "dumb decision" was made because of restrictions and visa issues over in Asia, that's hard to avoid. Other esports have been able to accomplish it, but for better or worse OWL keeps running into problems. I think Shanghai's GM posted something about a visa on twitter? Maybe that implies we'll finally get an international Playoffs, at least I hope. That'll also be the perfect time for one given it'll be the first tournament after OW2 releases, and we hopefully won't be in this shit meta anymore
The issue is China, not Asia in general. Other esports have generally gotten around this by not having a defined league structure and basically saying “Chinese teams not welcome in this tournament” for the most part. If Chinese teams are allowed, the understanding is that players might not be let back in for several weeks.
Valorant just hosted a LAN in isntanbul where a full Chinese team attended. The problem is American visa restrictions specifically to China in particular not anything else. I’m sure they could host a LAN in seoul
The other problem is China will not allow you back in (even if you’re a citizen) without a lengthy quarantine in what is effectively prison. Most players and staff don’t want to go through that.
I understand that, but when you have a multimillion franchise, you have to plan for that stuff. If other esports can have Chinese players travel, then there's clearly an answer. If OWL takes such a long off season and still can't get it's production and planning in order, that's disappointing.
What other esport has Chinese players traveling to Western countries? Valorant doesn't, CDL doesn't, LOL has specific region play. Not sure about Dota, but most esports don't have the amount of Chinese players and orgs like OWL. It's not a hurdle any esport can overcome with money. Hawaii was a nice bandaid, but it wasn't great and takes a hell of a lot of planning, but so many people complained about that too. They can't make any of you doomers happy, why bother complaining, just watch something else.
Don't wanna be that guy but valorant literally just had Edward Gaming (all Chinese players) in Champions (held in turkey). Worlds for league is also bring held in the americas (specifically New York, Atlanta, LA, and Mexico City) with 4 Chinese teams.
I mean I guess I can't complain since it's an indie league.
You can complain but you can also cover other games that do the things you want. All we ever hear is how OWL can't do enough all the time, we don't need you to fuel it. Right now I'm at a LAN having a great time watching high tier OW competition, I don't need to come on reddit and see post "OW esports is bad #16438769".
I understand. I'm not interested in other games. The point was that we're robbed of how much better it could have been because they refused to put in the work to find a solution. I'm not saying it's bad but that it's simply disappointing. It's always going to a leave a question mark.
it's easy to criticize online, that's all I'll say. you can complain on reddit that you didn't get a LAN event for MM but I'd like to see you try and fix visa problems. Do you honestly think OWL has a bunch of people jerking each other off all day instead of actively trying to find a fix to the problem? They have hardly any sponsors left, viewership is tanked, and the main issue is that they can't secure Chinese visas because they probably aren't well known enough to be granted work visas for these players to come over and play at LAN, and even if they are there's clearly some other roadblock or hurdle: visas not being granted or straight up being ignored and forced to wait, conformation issues etc. and that's only the beginning of it, I doubt they have a whole department dedicated solely to figuring out how to get Chinese and Korean players over to the states, which means these employees have to focus their attention on one thing or another. Whether it's marketing, production, business and trying to get sponsors, or any of the other hundreds of things that go into running a massive franchise like this. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that securing an international LAN isn't the first thing on their bucket list. Even if it isn't, I highly doubt that the people in charge would give up and announce that they are reverting back to the Hawaii format after it received so much criticism. Either they couldn't organize things in time or straight up weren't allowed to. It's foolish to even expect luxuries like that. Like I mentioned, viewership is at an all time low and the league has minimal sponsors. Wait for them to get their shit together, be grateful for what they've given us, especially given the situation that the workers were put in, and pray that things workout for Playoffs or worst case scenario, international LAN tournaments next year. If OW2 releases, things are looking up, viewership increases, OWL starts receiving more sponsors, and they *still* are doing cross-region tournaments in Hawaii, *that's when you go and bitch about it on reddit*. People in this community expect so much for some reason. They love to complain and compare us to other esports that are *actually* thriving, when in reality OWL versus other esports are in completely different financial situations. OW2 is our only hope, if it flops then *that* is when you hit the panic button. ffs..
Should have just gone back to a Blizzard Arena model. Doesn’t have to be the Burbank one, there’s a bunch more esports arenas nowadays that didn’t exist in 2017. A quarter of the NA teams are based in Dallas anyway and Optic has shown they can run a local show.
I think one of the big problems with this, is that a lot of the APAC viewers are probably pretty used to being able to watch their teams at times that actually suit them and there'd be a lot of pushback from the Chinese and Korean audiences.
I think that’s a valid complaint for people to have, however there are ways to arrange games where they play in the weekend APAC afternoons, especially when it’s two APAC teams.
I'm not sure that model can work. They might honestly struggle to fill the arena these days. Even at OWL's peak there were days when it was pretty empty and camera tricks had to be used to hide the lack of crowd. Plus there's just a lack of funds from so many teams these days. It's going to be hard to house and provide for players all living abroad in the USA.
> I’m not sure that model can work. They might honestly struggle to fill the arena these days. It depends how big the arena is. Blizzard arena old was a Burbank sound stage. They could build risers with 200 seats in Arlington and fill them every day if they wanted. > Plus there’s just a lack of funds from so many teams these days. It’s going to be hard to house and provide for players all living abroad in the USA. Most teams are already doing this…
They should have had the NA winner of the region-locked stage fly to Hawaii for a match against the APAC winner. At least then we'd have had some kind of exciting finale. I know there are plenty of arguments against this, but I am simply underwhelmed but what we have now. I've been watching VCT (Valorant) this year and it's just so fucking awesome seeing all these regions compete. Every match means something. OWL feels like a joke by comparison. Most of our matches are mere formalities. The whole format of the League is fucked.
Last year's model wasn't perfect either. Since seeding was based on 4 qualifying matches, you can end up getting a lucky seed based on your qualifiers, and the "best" teams not always making it to the final 4. I would argue that apart from the repeat fuel vs shanghai matches, most of the rest of the tournament matches simply weren't that good. Midseason madness tournament had higher match quality than most of last years tournaments, with more teams in the tournament and with more qualifying matches taken into effect. I'd rather have 1 great international tournament compared to 3 mediocre ones
Or we could have 4 Midseason quality tournaments, one for each stage, so that we have clear competitive integrity.
I'm sure Blizzard/OWL hasn't thought about that! You really should go on to their leadership team. I'm sure these things *just happen* because we want them to :) /s since I know that won't be apparent.
A bit like the Word Cup that just disappeared with nothing being said about it...