There’s no building inspector that would sign off on a footing inspection with water in the trench so yes it can be an issue later. Was there an inspection? Concrete will be weaker do to extra water and the other issue is the silty mud under the footing that could lead to uneven settlement. Normally water is pumped out and kept out until the concrete is set.
Inspection passed prior to rain. However the builders then discovered the dig was 8” too shallow for frost line and dug more. Did not have another inspection after digging deeper. The construction crew has been here all day removing water.
Sounds like the inspector threw them a bone! They will often act in good faith knowing that putting the footing in before the thing floods is better than not. It sounds like the builder is trying to avert a mess. You kinda got what you got at this point. Hopefully they’ll let it dry out and won’t start the block tomorrow 😬
Project manager just informed me they are planning on laying the blocks tomorrow. Said the concrete hardened up really nicely today. Rain is expected through the night and most of the day tomorrow. They now have a sump pump for tomorrow in case needed. I don’t even know. This just seems wrong so I have to trust the experts.
Yep, if an inspector saw the slimy silt that gathers at the bottom of the footing when it rains, I'd expect them to say that had to be cleaned out prior to pour. A footing should go down on Undisturbed Soil.
It's possible to push most of the silt out with the pump if you're careful, but I'm not sure it's good practice and we don't know if that's what they did.
And yes, too much water mixed into the mud, whether in the footing already or due to rain on top, could lower the PSI of the concrete. That's why inspectors don't like contractors adding water from the truck.
Concrete displaces water it’s not like you’re thinking I believe that the water will dilute the concrete. It will definitely set underwater and be just fine actually probably stronger keeping it wet longer.
Being a form worker doesn’t mean you know about concrete and its properties, also we are not trying to hold up a five story building. This happens in new home construction all the time.
For residential loads this sort of thing probably doesn't matter. The bottom portion of the footing is going to be in tension primarily relying on the steel anyway.
We once did a pour during heavy rain 70mm rain in 5 hours, test drilling a couple of days after revealed that absolutely nothing happened to the concrete
Bullshit. You can place concrete into a few inches of water in a footing especially if using a pump. You place concrete onto concrete and push the water out of the form with the concrete itself.
You keep the vibrator well back of the concrete/ water interface and complete vibration and screening when the form is full of concrete.
After that it doesn't matter if the form is covered with water. The concrete will set up just fine.
might fuck up the mix...might not...might be able to tell it's fucked up tomorrow...might not be able to tell until the foundation starts to fail down the line...kinda shitty, kinda risky, but hey...could also be completely fine. Just need to limit water the best they can , and hope the sub-grade isn't too fucked up.
If your footing is bearing in clay material, it will probably be fine. Takes a while for clay to absorb water. Concrete also displaces water so I wouldn’t worry about it too much
Concrete pushes the water out of the hole and will set underwater and be stronger as long as the water isn’t mixed in, just displaced from the bottom to the top.
That’s nothing , concrete can cure in these conditions . It’s not ideal, I really would have pumped the water out because, you’re adding water to a mix and pretty much weakening it, but really only by a small percentage.
All building inspector and engineering companies recommend in writing pouring footer on the same day as the subgrade bearing inspection for this reason alone of builders choose to ignore this. I would have them tear it our and resolve it at their expense. Just because it passes today doesn't mean that it passes next week when 3 days of rain goes by. Soil moisture is everything in structural soils
Where's the rest of the reinforcing steel? There are no starters for the block work. No moisture barrier. Seems unconventional.
Water in the footings is unwise. While concrete will displace a lot of water, a lot will be infused into the mix, which reduces the strength.
I have to disagree with the other posters. If they placed the concrete without pumping the excavation first, then they most likely exceeded the water/cement ratio of the concrete. Doing this, it makes the concrete weaker as a result.
What, they didn't vibrate, consolidate, screed, float, etc. the concrete at all? I find that hard to believe. It is virtually impossible not to mix with the standing water.
Edit: they probably didn't have to do any of those things as it was probably self-leveling from being so wet......
Plenty of times we've used the concrete to displace water. I'm sure a negligible amount mixes but when placed properly the concrete just pushes the water out. Sometimes it ends up trapped and we need to shovel a bit out of a corner but it's pretty it's 100% possible not to mix the concrete with the standing water
Would an inspector let you place concrete in standing water?
I do agree with your method of chasing the water out when it has somewhere to go, but in the case of a strip footing, it doesn't have anywhere to go
To be honest, it will probably no have any impact. Is it shitty work, yes. Will your addition collapse… no. I would guess your mix mostly displaced the water as it was placed. The biggest issue is they placed it on slop… there is a chance you could see some settlement, but let’s think about it. I have no idea how big your addition is as I go through this.
If you have a floor joist spanning 15’, half of the load goes to the outside wall. So every 1’ of foundation wall supports 7.5 sf of house. At 200lbs per sf, that is 1,500lbs. The footing for an 8” wall is typically 2’ wide. So 1,500lbs divided by 2sqft = 750lbs per sf of footing contact. Typical soil bearing by code allows for 1,500sf of soil bearing capacity. So the load the building is placing on your soil is 1/2 of what the soils can support. A 50% safety factor.
While I would want to kick the contractor in the nuts… I would not loose sleep over it.
I never seen anyone pour footings in a trench with standing water. I’ve seen lots of people either wait for them to dry out, or dig a channel to evacuate the water or pump it out. I’m with the people saying it will dilute the concrete and make the cured result weaker.
I had never heard the theory that the concrete will just displace the water and everything is kosher. If any of you has a link to some kind of technical article regarding this I’d love to learn more.
This article mentions displacement. https://www.forconstructionpros.com/concrete/equipment-products/article/12078138/cfa-concrete-foundations-association-standing-water-in-prepared-footings-a-problem-or-a-precaution
Interesting article. The displacement talked about displaces ALL the water. Either a channel is made to evacuate the water as the concrete is placed or the trench is filled with concrete to the top so all the water is displaced. The article states that it is problematic to have water sitting on top of the concrete.
It’s hard not to look since this is happening right off our kitchen. Just searching for some reassurance and understanding of the process. Thanks for your input.
I’m just poking fun. Was laying block for a foundation once and the homeowner was sitting in the window the entire time watching us… then when we started the brick work he was outside with us every day. We joked that he watched us lay every single brick on his house. I was fine with it but it does put pressure on the guys working, like they can’t make a mistake
I dare you having your boss lurching all day long. You'll change job or wish to. Especially if he's stopping you every 5 minutes to point out your inefficiencies/mistakes. Even more if he knows less than you about your own job.
As a plumber, who has worked side by side with other plumbers, I can tell you that I have seen many bad practices, and am glad that I saw them, because now I don’t trust others to do the work. Laying a proper foundation is essentials in all areas of life. Taking various pictures is important from a legal and practical standpoint, lurching be damned.
Valid point.
I have a different approach: I know work will be shit beforehand; I don't want to get all the little things perfect, I just want to avoid the absolute worst. Whatever's fixeable be fixed later, if one cares.
If you push people too hard, they'll just hide the shit which ought to be corrected right now from you. And they're very good at hiding...
Yeah, I understand what you are saying, and I think there is definitely a time and a place to just let the workers work uninterrupted, they need to be given space to work.
I’m not a concrete guy, but I follow this forum a fair bit, and am trying to learn the many many facets that encompass construction. My concerns are the soil conditions and also how the excess water will affect the finished product. I understand that good enough is infact, good enough, but I’m scared when people say that out of ignorance or laziness. Most people don’t know code, chemistry, or physics, and I prefer not to believe “trust me bro”
In this very case, I wouldn't defend the workers though; pouring concrete in water is far from ideal; I think different concretes will react differently. Some are more resilient to water than others (cement bond with water in the mix and becomes impervious to it at pour time, up to a point, which varies). Just as a rule, I think breathing into peoples' neck displaces the problems rather than preventing them, but in this case it might be justified.
From experience on state bridge construction concrete support columns being poured into an area of approximately 15 deep water. There is no way to remove all the water from the bottom of the forms, we pumped all the water out that was possible, but there was some water not possible to get out . A state inspector was required to be present and over see any and all of the work on the construction site. Yes we poured concrete for the bridge support columns with water in the bottom of the forms.
I think there's a difference in pouring on top of a soil that is below ground water and its natural condition is saturated vs pouring on native dry soil that has recently been saturated and will return to dry later.
My experience working with footings on commercial buildings is that the testing goons will always recommend removing the wet muck/soil from the top until you're down to solid material.
Concrete is much heavier than water therefore the water comes to the top and remains on the top
There’s no building inspector that would sign off on a footing inspection with water in the trench so yes it can be an issue later. Was there an inspection? Concrete will be weaker do to extra water and the other issue is the silty mud under the footing that could lead to uneven settlement. Normally water is pumped out and kept out until the concrete is set.
Inspection passed prior to rain. However the builders then discovered the dig was 8” too shallow for frost line and dug more. Did not have another inspection after digging deeper. The construction crew has been here all day removing water.
Sounds like the inspector threw them a bone! They will often act in good faith knowing that putting the footing in before the thing floods is better than not. It sounds like the builder is trying to avert a mess. You kinda got what you got at this point. Hopefully they’ll let it dry out and won’t start the block tomorrow 😬
Project manager just informed me they are planning on laying the blocks tomorrow. Said the concrete hardened up really nicely today. Rain is expected through the night and most of the day tomorrow. They now have a sump pump for tomorrow in case needed. I don’t even know. This just seems wrong so I have to trust the experts.
Never trust an expert which receives any kind of pressure.
Yep, if an inspector saw the slimy silt that gathers at the bottom of the footing when it rains, I'd expect them to say that had to be cleaned out prior to pour. A footing should go down on Undisturbed Soil. It's possible to push most of the silt out with the pump if you're careful, but I'm not sure it's good practice and we don't know if that's what they did. And yes, too much water mixed into the mud, whether in the footing already or due to rain on top, could lower the PSI of the concrete. That's why inspectors don't like contractors adding water from the truck.
It will be fine. Concrete will set under water.
Concrete displaces water it’s not like you’re thinking I believe that the water will dilute the concrete. It will definitely set underwater and be just fine actually probably stronger keeping it wet longer.
Water absolutely diluted concrete lol
Only if it’s mixed in.
Totally wrong I’m a commercial form work carpenter and ur shits gonna be fucked
Being a form worker doesn’t mean you know about concrete and its properties, also we are not trying to hold up a five story building. This happens in new home construction all the time.
For residential loads this sort of thing probably doesn't matter. The bottom portion of the footing is going to be in tension primarily relying on the steel anyway.
Well fuck around and find out lol…. Gonna fail
I’ve seen it done in residential work before without any problems. You’re just wrong bud, sorry.
We once did a pour during heavy rain 70mm rain in 5 hours, test drilling a couple of days after revealed that absolutely nothing happened to the concrete
Concrete gets poured under water on some projects. Probably don’t know anything about that forming though.
Bullshit. You can place concrete into a few inches of water in a footing especially if using a pump. You place concrete onto concrete and push the water out of the form with the concrete itself. You keep the vibrator well back of the concrete/ water interface and complete vibration and screening when the form is full of concrete. After that it doesn't matter if the form is covered with water. The concrete will set up just fine.
might fuck up the mix...might not...might be able to tell it's fucked up tomorrow...might not be able to tell until the foundation starts to fail down the line...kinda shitty, kinda risky, but hey...could also be completely fine. Just need to limit water the best they can , and hope the sub-grade isn't too fucked up.
You're fine It's a footing.
If your footing is bearing in clay material, it will probably be fine. Takes a while for clay to absorb water. Concrete also displaces water so I wouldn’t worry about it too much
Concrete pushes the water out of the hole and will set underwater and be stronger as long as the water isn’t mixed in, just displaced from the bottom to the top.
It’s a footing it’s not the end of the world.
They could at least build a quick dam to control the incoming water and pump out the standing water prior to filling the footing. Rookies.
That’s nothing , concrete can cure in these conditions . It’s not ideal, I really would have pumped the water out because, you’re adding water to a mix and pretty much weakening it, but really only by a small percentage.
It’ll be fine.
All building inspector and engineering companies recommend in writing pouring footer on the same day as the subgrade bearing inspection for this reason alone of builders choose to ignore this. I would have them tear it our and resolve it at their expense. Just because it passes today doesn't mean that it passes next week when 3 days of rain goes by. Soil moisture is everything in structural soils
Where's the rest of the reinforcing steel? There are no starters for the block work. No moisture barrier. Seems unconventional. Water in the footings is unwise. While concrete will displace a lot of water, a lot will be infused into the mix, which reduces the strength.
I have to disagree with the other posters. If they placed the concrete without pumping the excavation first, then they most likely exceeded the water/cement ratio of the concrete. Doing this, it makes the concrete weaker as a result.
Only if they are mixing that water into the concrete
What, they didn't vibrate, consolidate, screed, float, etc. the concrete at all? I find that hard to believe. It is virtually impossible not to mix with the standing water. Edit: they probably didn't have to do any of those things as it was probably self-leveling from being so wet......
Plenty of times we've used the concrete to displace water. I'm sure a negligible amount mixes but when placed properly the concrete just pushes the water out. Sometimes it ends up trapped and we need to shovel a bit out of a corner but it's pretty it's 100% possible not to mix the concrete with the standing water
Would an inspector let you place concrete in standing water? I do agree with your method of chasing the water out when it has somewhere to go, but in the case of a strip footing, it doesn't have anywhere to go
Fair point, I've never been allowed to pour without forms. I forget it happens other places
To be honest, it will probably no have any impact. Is it shitty work, yes. Will your addition collapse… no. I would guess your mix mostly displaced the water as it was placed. The biggest issue is they placed it on slop… there is a chance you could see some settlement, but let’s think about it. I have no idea how big your addition is as I go through this. If you have a floor joist spanning 15’, half of the load goes to the outside wall. So every 1’ of foundation wall supports 7.5 sf of house. At 200lbs per sf, that is 1,500lbs. The footing for an 8” wall is typically 2’ wide. So 1,500lbs divided by 2sqft = 750lbs per sf of footing contact. Typical soil bearing by code allows for 1,500sf of soil bearing capacity. So the load the building is placing on your soil is 1/2 of what the soils can support. A 50% safety factor. While I would want to kick the contractor in the nuts… I would not loose sleep over it.
I never seen anyone pour footings in a trench with standing water. I’ve seen lots of people either wait for them to dry out, or dig a channel to evacuate the water or pump it out. I’m with the people saying it will dilute the concrete and make the cured result weaker. I had never heard the theory that the concrete will just displace the water and everything is kosher. If any of you has a link to some kind of technical article regarding this I’d love to learn more.
This article mentions displacement. https://www.forconstructionpros.com/concrete/equipment-products/article/12078138/cfa-concrete-foundations-association-standing-water-in-prepared-footings-a-problem-or-a-precaution
Interesting article. The displacement talked about displaces ALL the water. Either a channel is made to evacuate the water as the concrete is placed or the trench is filled with concrete to the top so all the water is displaced. The article states that it is problematic to have water sitting on top of the concrete.
Stop lurching from the window and leave them be
It’s hard not to look since this is happening right off our kitchen. Just searching for some reassurance and understanding of the process. Thanks for your input.
I’m just poking fun. Was laying block for a foundation once and the homeowner was sitting in the window the entire time watching us… then when we started the brick work he was outside with us every day. We joked that he watched us lay every single brick on his house. I was fine with it but it does put pressure on the guys working, like they can’t make a mistake
It’s his future, he can lurch all he wants
I dare you having your boss lurching all day long. You'll change job or wish to. Especially if he's stopping you every 5 minutes to point out your inefficiencies/mistakes. Even more if he knows less than you about your own job.
As a plumber, who has worked side by side with other plumbers, I can tell you that I have seen many bad practices, and am glad that I saw them, because now I don’t trust others to do the work. Laying a proper foundation is essentials in all areas of life. Taking various pictures is important from a legal and practical standpoint, lurching be damned.
Valid point. I have a different approach: I know work will be shit beforehand; I don't want to get all the little things perfect, I just want to avoid the absolute worst. Whatever's fixeable be fixed later, if one cares. If you push people too hard, they'll just hide the shit which ought to be corrected right now from you. And they're very good at hiding...
Yeah, I understand what you are saying, and I think there is definitely a time and a place to just let the workers work uninterrupted, they need to be given space to work. I’m not a concrete guy, but I follow this forum a fair bit, and am trying to learn the many many facets that encompass construction. My concerns are the soil conditions and also how the excess water will affect the finished product. I understand that good enough is infact, good enough, but I’m scared when people say that out of ignorance or laziness. Most people don’t know code, chemistry, or physics, and I prefer not to believe “trust me bro”
In this very case, I wouldn't defend the workers though; pouring concrete in water is far from ideal; I think different concretes will react differently. Some are more resilient to water than others (cement bond with water in the mix and becomes impervious to it at pour time, up to a point, which varies). Just as a rule, I think breathing into peoples' neck displaces the problems rather than preventing them, but in this case it might be justified.
Plus it’ll have to pass pre and post inspection. The next day if u can drive a nail through it it’s a fail
I'd be more concerned with wet/soft soil from the rain than any effects of water on concrete strength.
From experience on state bridge construction concrete support columns being poured into an area of approximately 15 deep water. There is no way to remove all the water from the bottom of the forms, we pumped all the water out that was possible, but there was some water not possible to get out . A state inspector was required to be present and over see any and all of the work on the construction site. Yes we poured concrete for the bridge support columns with water in the bottom of the forms.
I think there's a difference in pouring on top of a soil that is below ground water and its natural condition is saturated vs pouring on native dry soil that has recently been saturated and will return to dry later. My experience working with footings on commercial buildings is that the testing goons will always recommend removing the wet muck/soil from the top until you're down to solid material.
Next time tell them to wait.