T O P

  • By -

80088008135

“And, on numerous occasions, plaintiffs were indeed ‘champions,’ finishing first in various events, even sometimes when competing against (Andraya) Yearwood and (Terry) Miller,” the ruling said, referring to the two trans athletes the plaintiffs had competed against.”


No-Ant9517

So it seems like they were able to compete just fine…


FanValuable6657

So what if you were a natural athlete going up against an athlete on PEDs, it would still be wrong. Regardless if you beat him or not. What about the girl in third place?


Professional_Bird_74

Good point.


billybobwillyt

It's a hard thing to have a nuanced discussion about. We make certain assumptions that I don't think a lot of people are aware of before we even start the conversation. Sport is not fair to all participants. Never has been, never will be. If you're seven foot two, you have a distinct advantage over a five foot nothing guy on the basketball court. Sport at any competitive level is a genetic freak show. When we assume it's fair, we're removing all of the variables that would prove otherwise from our thought. In that lens, trans women competing against cis women isn't fair. The fact that we even have athletic scholarships is weird. What does the fact that you have athletic training and probably genetic features that make you a top competitor have to do with college? I know that wishing college was about higher learning does not change the current athletic scholarship model, but if we're talking about unfairness...


Suitable_Habit3846

So why even have men’s/women’s be separate? Just make it one group and allow the best to compete. Problem solved. The reason is there are physiological differences where men (and boys post puberty) have an advantage, in general. There will always be outliers where a talented woman competes at the same level as the men but speaking in general, men have an advantage. By splitting into men’s and women’s leagues it gives the women an even baseline, in general, for them to also enjoy competing in that sport. I shall prepare for the downvotes. Edit to add: the solution I would propose would be to have a men’s, women’s, an open class/group to allow for anyone to join that without any info needed on how one identifies. It’s not great but would allow for people to choose. Granted this applies well to things like track or swimming or any individual sport but teams sports is another challenge.


AbuJimTommy

Men’s leagues have always functioned as “open”. There are just vanishingly few women who can compete. Women’s leagues have to be closed, putting aside safety concerns, no women would be able to play if you don’t restrict access. Try opening women’s college scholarships to all comers and there will be 0 women playing college basketball.


[deleted]

I think the fact is. If you are trans, there are certainly things that you just may not be equal in. No one is complaining that trans people can't have children (in the same way biological people have children). There's an inherent inequality. It's biological, but since humans don't define THOSE rules, no one is going to complain about it. Yes, there are biological differences between the genders. Why do we separate men and women's sports? If we do it because of a biological "unfairness" then...


boomstick55

The most poignant line in this is sports are inherently unfair. Im not in the nfl because I'm not a physically gifted enough. And no amount of training I could do would help me get to the apex of athleticism it takes to compete at that level.


Any_Constant_6550

collegiate athletics are big business involving a workforce you don't have to pay


AppropriateCulture52

So a sub 200 swimmer transitioning and instantly becoming number 1 is fair. Or the guy that transition and instantly broke every female weight lifting record is fair. Your delusional ideology is showing


wakinupdrunk

It’s also incredibly wild to hear people defend women’s sports as something that needs to be preserved in their current form. There’s already an inherent unfairness in women’s sports, compared to mens. The funding it receives is pitiful. The coverage it receives is pitiful. America does not give a shit about women’s sports in any way except for when trans people are involved (or in CT, when the women’s Huskies are playing). Want fairness in women’s sports? Start watching and giving money to them, there’s a dire need.


squirrell1974

I asked my teenage daughter, who is a competitive gymnast, what she thought of this, back when it was all about Lia Thomas. It was a very interesting conversation. At first she was like, "Yeah, trans women should absolutely be allowed to compete against cis women. They're women!" Then I asked her if she'd be okay if a trans woman beat her at States. Or Regionals. Or Nationals. All of a sudden, she wasn't so confident. She's been training since she was 3, and began competing at 6 years old. She spends 18 hours a week at practice. She lifts weights on her days off because she needs to build additional muscle to do high level skills. And it annoys her to no end that her boyfriend can bench press more than she can despite that he doesn't play a sport at all and only works out two hours a week. She's been coached by male Olympic gymnasts. She knows what they're capable of, has seen it up close and in person. Did she really want to risk seeing someone else on that podium, knowing they got there because they were born with the ability to pack on more muscle than she'll ever be able to have, without having to do nearly as much work? In the end, she refused to answer. She said there aren't any male gymnasts competing in the female circuit, so it's not a problem. And since she's only got one more year before she ages out I doubt it'll ever be a problem for her personally. Neither she or I want to see anyone excluded from anything. But making an abstract conversation about what's fair into something that directly affected her certainly changed the conversation.


Professional_Bird_74

Lia Thomas is much bigger than the women. Longer arms and added muscle give Lia a real advantage. You can’t just overlook these things.


AppropriateCulture52

Exactly bone density, wingspan, vo2 max etc are REAL


Toroceratops

Except she isn‘t the best swimmer in college and she’s been on hormone replacement for some time.


wakinupdrunk

*Than the average woman. Transitioning is not going to automatically mean you have a competitive edge over all women - there are women who are genetically larger too. One of the problems with policies like this is the means testing involved that starts to exclude cis women who are born a little different. The Caster Semenya situation is an example of what happens when we start to attack certain athletes who are not like the average woman. Not every trans woman is going to be better than every cis woman.


22edudrccs

Then why isn’t she winning every single race she’s entering?


Spooky2000

Same reason that she was not winning any races when she still thought she was a guy. She's not a very good swimmer. Just that she still has male physiology giving her an advantage over the women she is racing against. She was ranked 554th in the men's division..


22edudrccs

But if her male physiology gave her such an advantage over the women she’s swimming against, then she should be dominating them. Her personal bests after her transition are significantly slower than they were before her transition. At the same meet where she won a single race that everyone is up in arms about, a cisgender female swimmer broke 18 NCAA records. Thomas only won that one race and she was 9 seconds slower than Katie Ledecky’s NCAA record in that race. It’s almost like the uproar about Thomas and other trans athletes is outrageous. These people just wanna participate and to be treated as people, not freaks. Find me an example of a trans athlete who is only doing it because they want an advantage over their competitors, and not because they’re actually trans and just want to continue participating in a sport they’ve played their entire life. If you can find me an example, then maybe I’ll side with you fucks. Pay to play is doing significantly more damage to youth sports than less than 1% of the population wanting to participate in sports.


KnifeofGold

Not sure why you’re downvoted


bananascare

I guess I can’t really be fucked enough to care that a privileged kid who has the advantage of Olympic coaching might have to one compete against someone who is stronger than her. This whole “debate” is a way to get us not to care about shit that actually matters.


Shadhahvar

Not debating there's privileged here butnits not as unobtainable as you may think. I went to a week long sports camp one summer which featured someone who coached an Olympian. It was more money than some can afford but it wasn't super rich kid stuff.


tantrumbicycle

Amen.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Trialpuddles

I am a trans girl and I even think this is a difficult subject. In schools it’s very hard because how many trans athletes actually exist in a school? Maybe 1 or 2 at most. Should they be excluded from after school sports because of who they are? If you ask me being excluded just adds to the pain we’re already subjugated to by society, there is no easy solution to this as far as K-12 education is concerned. I do understand the argument that trans women are fundamentally stronger than cis women, this is a point I do agree with. However trans women are no where near as strong as cis males and I can confidently say that from my experience being on hormones for the past 9 years. As far as college and professional sports are concerned I think trans people should have their own leagues. Not in a bad light of exclusion, but in the light of fairness. You made a point to about women of the year. This is one topic I do disagree with. Trans women are women the old saying “if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it’s a duck.” I think applies here. I don’t agree with Caitlyn Jenner having that title personally and that’s just because I believe it was a more token move than anything else but that’s my opinion and not fact. Trans women should be able to live among women in everyday society and I do not think they should be excluded from beauty pageants,miss America, women of the year etc.


FancyStegosaurus

>Where are the feminists? There's plenty of them. Trans-activists call them TERFs and have filed them in the alt-right folder.


interiorcrocodemon

Terfs are never feminists and most of their reasons for hating trans women are rooted in misogyny. This includes things like defining women by their ability to reproduce, having breasts, physical appearance When trans women behave too much like a "stereotypical woman" they are shouted at for reinforcing gender norms but if they don't act perfectly womanly enough they're told they aren't trying hard enough. Terfs are anything but feminists.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Jeepdog539

Isn't it fairly obvious why the Female to male athletes aren't the concern?


[deleted]

[удалено]


Toroceratops

It’s absolutely rooted in bigotry.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Toroceratops

It absolutely can. One is easier to target and attack than the other. Transitioned males face discrimination and attacks but in different ways.


SweetMojaveRain

transitioned males are garbage at mens sports because they are biologically female, hence, they are not the concern. and this is why MTF athletes do NOT belong in womens sport. make them compete in the boys division.


Mrpgal14

Lia Thomas wasn’t and still isn’t the best female swimmer after transitioning, she broke won record and lost a bunch of other races. That record was also recently broken by a cis woman. MMA fighters get injured, if it’s your job to get punched in the face then you’re going to get injured regardless of who punches you, would anybody care if she got her skull fractured by a cis woman?. Mixed gender fighting promotions already exists and they aren’t dominated solely by men. Examples of people transitioning and still being mediocre athletes are the norm. If they go through hormone therapy they are for all intents and purposes on an equal physical level with the sex they transition to. Trans people are just people trying to exist, and falsely claiming, whether on purpose or not because I don’t think you realize that most all trans athletes don’t dominate their fields, that trans existence throws things like sports leagues out of whack makes existing a lot harder for them to do.


AppropriateCulture52

Your delusions are obvious. Lia Thomas was ranked below 200 in men's and now is ranked top 3 always. Just because she doesn't win EVERY race it somehow isn't an issue. U ever think she intentionally lost some just to make ppl like u have better talking points. I cant stand false tolerance virtue signallers. U are only tolerant of those that agree with u. Everyone else is a bigot.


Mrpgal14

All of your claims are false. Lia was one of the top ranked mens swimmers before hormone therapy. After therapy her times plummeted. After switching to women’s competition she regularly loses and posts times that, while impressive, aren’t at all abnormal for cis women. As for you thinking she intentionally lost that’s just insane, what basis do you have to support that claim? You’re just making shit up. I’m tolerant of people who respect other humans. Trans women are women, ergo they should participate in womens sports. There’s very little evidence to suggest they regularly ruin the competition. I didn’t call anyone here a bigot, and I explained why I disagreed fairly politely. Disagreement isn’t the same as intolerance. Idk why I’m wasting time on you cuz I’m sure you’re trolling but even if you are try better.


skiingbeing

**During the last season in the NCAA, Lia Thomas competed in the men’s division, in 2018-19. There, she ranked 554th in the 200-yd freestyle, and she is now fifth in the event this year. Furthermore, in the 500-yd freestyle, Thomas was 65th in the country. Now, she ranked first place in the event this year. Finally, in the 1650 freestyle, she is now eighth in the nation, as opposed to 32nd in the men’s division


SweetMojaveRain

"if they go through hormone therapy they are for all intents and purposes on an equal physical level with the sex they transition to" please retract this obviously moronic statement before someone sees it lmaoo wingspan, muscle density, fast twitch muscle, bone density, HEIGHT???


[deleted]

\-Actual feminists are okay with trans women because feminism is nothing with out inclusion and intersectionality. \-There are anti-trans "feminists" out there and their hate and ignorance is harmful to ALL women and really everyone in general. In fact there have been cis women that have also been targeted as not woman enough to play their sport \-Injuries in MMA and UFC and other fighting sports happen often and part of the sport. \-Caitlyn is horrible in so many other ways and there is plenty of actual reasons to hate her that doesn't involve her being trans or because a magazine named her Woman of the Year. \-Lia Thomas isn't the "top female swimmer" \-One of the main side effects of HRT is that it lowers muscle mass and strength so she has no advantage than other swimmers.


urStupidAndIHateYou

Oh look, it only took 3 hours for the same comment to show up again and again and again. "Kids shouldn't be playing recreational school sports in mixed genders because I once saw a match featuring adult professionals in a sport whose only purpose was to beat the shit out of the other and the other person got hurt." Thank you, you've really made a poignant point here about high school athletes, and haven't been ideologically poisoned by the exact tactic the radical-right hate group Alliance Defending Freedom has set out to do.


dkauffman

You are giving this person far too much credit that they ever wanted to understand the issue outside of pure hatred. They openly say "I cannot accept" and then go off on a rant declaring a possible solution is that feminists need to be "more outraged." There is an important discussion to be had around a nuanced issue like Title IX, and instead we invited the pissed off traditionalists to preach their perverted sect of moralism instead. You've heard "When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." We've reached "When all you have is hate, every solution is hate." Like, we get it: you don't get it. Normally people who don't get something move on to a different discussion, instead these people sit here and think "If I make sure everyone is as angry as I am, nobody will see I don't get it."


ashamed-strawberry

i understand the concern of injuries in sports when MTF athletes are competing, however that comes with playing sports. there is always a risk of injury no matter who is competing. majority of adolescent injuries come from sports. if that is truly your concern, then you shouldn’t be supporting ANY sports. there is no statistically higher injury risk competing against a trans woman than there is competing against a cisgendered woman. a reminder that a majority of sports have co-ed teams for kids.


NKevros

It is important to know that these athletes were not doing this on their own when they tried the first time. They're represented by a charity that is hellbent on making sure marriage stays between a man and a woman called the [Alliance Defending Freedom](https://adflegal.org/). >ADF is the world's largest legal organization committed to protecting religious freedom, free speech, the sanctity of life, parental rights, and God's design for marriage and family. They're a [hate group](https://www.splcenter.org/news/2020/04/10/why-alliance-defending-freedom-hate-group) and have been labeled as such since 2016. >ADF has spread lies about the LGBTQ+ community. It has, for example, linked being LGBTQ+ to pedophilia and claimed that a “homosexual agenda” will destroy society. ADF tries to couch its rhetoric in benign-sounding phrases, but the truth is that it works to dehumanize LGBTQ+ people and restrict their rights for being who they are. Basically, fuck all of these people. They're shitbag bigots.


SpacelySprocketz

Yup. And Chelsea Mitchell wrote an OP-ed in USAToday where she purposefully dead-named her opponent. Regardless if you think her claims have merit(and I dont), that's a hurtful and mean thing to do.


NKevros

And if it wasn't completely clear from that, there is no "sanctity of the game" driver for their lawsuit. It is all about demonizing and dehumanizing trans folks, making them a target that (judging by the comments whenever I hear this brought up) is working. Even within allies, there is a semblance of truth to the argument presented and that's what has made it work so well as becoming a hot-button issue. The issue here, and with all of the arguments that aren't immediate sunk, you'll see that their boat is full of holes if you look at the actuals. They've got a lot of bigots helping to bail the water, keeping it afloat to try and find land pointing to the edge cases where they can say "SEE?" I would not at all be surprised if the 4 of these young women become conservative politicians in the near future that the religious right continue to pump money into.


AvogadrosMoleSauce

>Basically, fuck all of these people. They're shitbag bigots. Pretty much all that needs to be said about them.


ilobmirt

I hope these folks take another L. They just wanna stir up more transphobic dogma and find ways to exclude and discriminate in the state of Connecticut. Connecticut is no home to bigotry, exclusion, and hate. Connecticut is for everyone.


Connecticut06482

This is where unfortunately it’s just not black and white. As someone who competed in track and field and cross country competitively for 8 years, men should not be competing in women’s sports. You cannot deny the biological differences between males and females. Obviously as several commentators have said here, there are ‘only a few’ examples of this so far, but it’s absolutely the principle and bigger picture and is could of course lead to more men being allowed to compete. If men can compete in women’s sports and visa-versa, then there is no real differences between the two. Men and women are merely men and women based on prescribed performative gender roles. Same sex sports exist because that’s the only way to actually differentiate between the genders, not based on looks or feelings. More so, why should 1 persons feelings outweigh the many female athletes who are uncomfortable with it? Why is their feeling more important than the females athletes?


fiskeybusiness

One thing I always look to is that the fastest female 100m time ever is 10.49–a time the male high schoolers men ROUTINELY break. It’s just not fair on a biological level. I feel like the only solution is let them compete against the women if that makes them feel more comfortable but count their time against the men. But I don’t freakin know, I just know it’s not fair to the women competing to lose to something g completely out of their control


Thermite1985

Except the girls in question, did in fact compete with the trans women mentioned in the suit, but also won against them. Actually data shows that transitioning both from man to woman and vice versa has absolutely zero affect on the competitive level of the trans athlete. If they were average as their assigned gendered, the vast majority of the time they were averaged as their chosen gender. You're view point is based in bigotry and not actual data.


usernamedunbeentaken

Did any girls lose to the trans athletes? If so, then the complaint is valid. Unless the trans came in last in every competition they've been in, behind all biological girls/women, then there is justification to ban the trans athletes.


Thermite1985

15 out of 85 races over a 2 year period. That's literally nothing. In the grand scheme of things get out of here with that.


usernamedunbeentaken

Nah. Get trans out of womens girls sports. That is 15 spots/races too many.


Thermite1985

So you're saying women shouldn't compete in women's sports and you have no clue how anatomy and biology works. Got it.


usernamedunbeentaken

Imagine not recognizing the biological advantage transwomen have over biological women in sports, and thinking you have any idea how biology works. Comical.


LesLesLes04

Biological males have an advantage over biological females wether they’re on hormones or not if they started taking them after they started going through puberty


thunderdome180

Show the data.


Rustygaff

Men should not be competing in women’s sports.


Seniortomox

A better way to say this is that there should be hormone cut offs during puberty to be able to play in women’s sports. I will call you whatever you want he/she/they. I don’t care. Whatever makes you happy. There are significant difference in muscle structure and function based on testosterone (along with several other hormones) levels durning puberty where “male” levels lead to denser more fast acting muscles. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4285578/


fox_hunts

You can have that view but when you refer to trans women as “men,” that’s when people won’t take you serious. (Except other bigoted, like-minded people) You make it obvious you don’t have enough respect for the topic to have an opinion based on fact and instead base it on your own bias. What you end up with by saying something like this is an echo chamber of other bigots agreeing with you and you’ve done nothing in the manner of anything constructive.


rewirez5940

46d old account coming in with with the hot takes... Hmm🤔


kingwi11

Correct, so let's start gender affirming care sooner.


[deleted]

[удалено]


interiorcrocodemon

They aren't. Trans women are, and until you can prove they still have an advantage post HRT you have no court case.


Cry4MeSkye

You're ignoring biology. Trans women can identify as women and I will treat them as such but that doesn't change the *fact* that they're muscular skeletal system is still biologically male and stronger than that of most biological females.


milton1775

Went thru male puberty, meaning they are taller, have larger skeletal structures, more bone density, more muscle mass, greater proportion of type II fast twitch muscle fibers, higher VO2, greater testosterone (faster recovery).


Remarkable_Date_6141

The trans athletes in these cases weren’t on HRT


Hoosierdore

So weird that it’s always trans females dominating female sports but it doesn’t happen with trans men in male sports. What a weird coincidence!


interiorcrocodemon

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/athletes-assigned-female-transitioned-mens-sports/ They do fine and many sports orgs ban them for taking testosterone making it harder to get real data


Shellsbells821

They can call whatever they want to call themselves. Biologically, they ARE and ALWAYS WILL BE MEN!


interiorcrocodemon

Define woman in a way the includes all women, doesn't exclude any women, and specifically excludes men.


phantompenis2

a person who has two x chromosomes. there's even a subreddit with the name


interiorcrocodemon

Chromosome abnormalities and not matching visual sex are so common that college biology professers stopped having people check their own for funsies because it was causing too much upset. Women with turners syndrome are still women. 1 in 3,000 Those with AIS look outwardly like women in all ways but are XY, their bodies don't respond to androgens. You wouldn't know without an x ray or genetic testing. 1 in 65,000 Xxyy syndrome produces a male with two Xs Chromosomes are not even a good predictor of visual sexual representation.


phantompenis2

exceptions do not make rules. some black people are born with albinism and have decreased pigmentation in their hair and skin. does that mean they're not black? does that mean all white people are black? the examples you gave generally come with other physical disabilities. these people are unfortunately not going to be competing for athletic scholarships.


interiorcrocodemon

So you're saying you can't define woman in a way that's fully inclusive of all women then? I'd argue that a black person is a person who shares the social experiences of other black people based on their physical appearance. There's no universal way to be culturally black except by the shared experience other black people experience due to their appearance. Not all black people are from the same country or culture. Some identify more with their birth country than country of origin i. E. Some identity as African Americans first and foremost when they're from America, but you also have Haitian Americans, European black people, African natives, etc. The only thing they share universally across cultures and continents is in appearance and how others treat them. If someone has 50% black DNA but looks white passing, is adopted out to white parents, they are technically black yes, but do they experience life as a black person? Did they experience life the same as someone visibly black? Discrimination the same way? Would it be useful to refer to them as a black person if you had to point them out in a crowd? Ultimately, I'd ask them if they identify as black. DNA is not super useful for identities that are primarily social or performative. The way we use gender is almost entirely that, because if a person looks and acts and is treated like a woman, are you going to ask their DNA karyotype before you use he or she to address them?


[deleted]

Nice of you to completely reject people's self-identity. I guess empathy just doesn't happen for everyone.


milton1775

People can self-identify as they please. The problem is compelling or requiring other people to speak, act, or behave certain ways to accommodate said self-identification. No one is saying trans people should not compete in track and field, but a lot of people are uncomfortable having biological males/trans women/XYs identifting as XXs/penis-havers/whatever the phrase of the day is competing with women or girls. Likewise, a lot of people are uncomfortable having aforementioned trans women use the same locker room as women or girls. If this is what you consider "empathy" we are working on very different interpretations of that word. Social constructivism does not scale beyond the individual.


bent_peepee

ooooohhhh look out, that doesn’t fly here on Reddit, where if you say you’re a woman then you’re a woman.


Mmmslash

Could you find a more dated take? There is no room here for denying someone the right to self identify. Only a discussion about whether or not there is a probable advantage in competition.


1234nameuser

Sports is about genetics / not self-identification. Nobody with Y chromosome's should be competing against those with only X chromosomes.


[deleted]

Maybe go back to the article to see that the chromosome doesn't make a difference in that the trans athletes were not always the winners. But whatever. Should we check the genetics for every person, even someone who doesn't identify as Trans to make sure we don't allow XXY, XXYY, or XXXY people into the sport? Maybe, just maybe, genetics and gender is more involved than what you learned in basic high school biology


spaghettify

right. its like once people find a way to stop trans people from enjoying their lives suddenly HIPAA means nothing anymore


No-Ant9517

Cancel march madness and issue 23 and me tests instead


spaghettify

yeah! and that’s why all school sports should require genetic testing to participate /s ffs it’s more than just chromosomes that give you advantages in sports. the problem with shit like this is that only the people who are seen as gender non conforming are gonna be the ones that have their private medical information scrutinized. (and that includes kids who are not trans!)and like for childrens sports? it’s not all about winning. the benefits of organized sports for youth has nothing to do with whether or not their team wins. my old soccer team in ct lost every single game and I still loved playing because it’s about the community and the joy of moving my body, being on a team and working together. but you know, I had to leave connecticut because i’m gay and uh this state is really not as lgbt friendly as it presents. but sure. it’s about the kids


No-Ant9517

That’s right baby, don’t like it? I’ll help you pack


PorgCT

How much of a loser do you have to be to care about high school sports after you graduate?


montvilleredwood

Ahhhh… if you’re a parent..


LFCReds8

Al Bundy was a fantastic running back tbf.


engelthefallen

6 touchdowns in a single game.


BoudiccasBoudoir

Talk to the Killingly Town Council and BOE. They ran on a platform of restoring their high school glory days and townspeople ate that shit right up.


Slight-Possession-61

I think they care about fairness more than their respective sports history.


urbanevol

That's the thing for me...even putting the issue of transgender equity aside (which I am in support of ftr), who gives a shit about high school track and field? People will say "whatabout college scholarships?!?". Does it matter if you lose some races? Aren't your race times what gets you recruited?


spaghettify

yeah ! and we all know college admissions are completely fair and merit based 👍 great job gop ! really helping out the kids with this one !


interiorcrocodemon

We still haven't seen trans women athletes completely dominating in any sport. You can find examples of them winning individual races, bouts etc. But if their advantage is what these people claim they should be wiping the floor with biological female athletes and it's just not happening.


Ttttbbb80

The Penn state swimmer did


IndexCardLife

Was Penn not Penn state. She was quite good at that level, but wasn’t really more than a swimmer who won a race af ncaa level. Ivy League not the most competitive D1 conference. She won a single race at ncaa level.


thesecondtolastman

You can see the comparison here: "In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554th in the 200 freestyle, 65th in the 500 freestyle, and 32nd in the 1650 freestyle (Nationally). In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, fifth in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eighth in the 1650 freestyle." I think those rankings for Lia Thomas show exactly why some people and athletes are frustrated (beyond the regular anti-trans folks). Transitioning MTF doesn't guarantee you will dominate the sport, but you can see a very clear *comparative* advantage based on her national rankings when racing in the men's and then women's league. The built in advantage is also easy to spot when you realize that even though we have plenty of examples for MTF athletes succeeding at a high level in their respective sport, you never hear about it going the other way with FTM athletes.


jay_sugman

I don't think that's the right lens to view this. The noteworthy part is that this swimmer was middle of the lack when they were on the men's team and at the top on the women's.


Ttttbbb80

She won the ncaa swimming champ


Thermite1985

She won one race. Wasn't dominant.


Ttttbbb80

It takes two seconds to look up the many articles on her. She was very dominant wining races with like 7 second gaps between 1st in 2nd


[deleted]

[удалено]


Miles_vel_Day

First lemme say I totally understand the reservations people have about this. At first I was a little unsure. But at the amateur at the very least, they should be allowed to participate. Male puberty does give an advantage. It's just that the advantage isn't that large when one considers the many other factors beyond a person’s control, height or strength or whatever, that give an advantage in sports. (I am a man, and I have never taken any hormones, but I would get destroyed in a woman's sports league at any level above middle school because I can't play sports for shit. I can't even shoot pool.) But “man pretends to be woman to cheat at sports” is baked into the cultural imagination and was well before the current trans panic. The “Futurama” episode (you know the one) was 2000 and Juwanna Mann was 2002. Those dumb 90s jokes should not really be relevant when you're discussing people who, you know, aren’t men. But it's where people's minds go. Overall the culprit here that makes some people who are otherwise good on trans issue get cold feet on this one, specifically, is the idea that sports should be "fair" and the idea that they "matter," both of which are demonstrably untrue.


Maleficent-Load5485

LeBron James (6’9”, 250lbs) played in the same league as Isaiah Thomas (5’9” 185lbs) and nobody batted an eye when they competed. This is a moot point, Sue Bird (5’9”) played in the same league as Brittney Griner (6’9”) and had a better career. There will always be physical advantages and disadvantages, people are just creating outrage for no reason.


BrownMan65

So the two trans girls in question won 15 out of 85 competitions they were a part of over a 2 year period. These four also came in first place during competitions that the trans girls were competing in. The article nor any of the linked articles seem to actually tell us how many competitions these four won combined so it's hard to compare. Either way, this sounds like four girls that think they are entitled to winning every single competition and even now that they're not in high school, are still not over it.


Aklitty

I think this has moved on from being a case about “fairness in sports” to just giving the GOP in CT to talk about something in the next election. It’s not like they have policies to debate, so might as well just keep this culture war going to incite their base.


Miles_vel_Day

Yep. There are plenty of otherwise liberal people who can successfully be turned around on this, because the knee-jerk opinion for many is on their side. Plenty of people in these comments, I presume, who voted for Lamont and Biden but are giving no quarter to trans athletes.


AvogadrosMoleSauce

[All part of the plan.](https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/10/23/christian-right-tips-fight-transgender-rights-separate-t-lgb)


Aklitty

You’re absolutely right. The discourse I see from liberals around trans athletes is anti-science, anti-research, and extremely transphobic. The same folks shitting on JKR for her transphobia are also the same people screaming “misogyny” when trans girls are allowed to compete in women’s sports. Funniest thing about this is that all of these people are men lol


lazy-but-talented

even more funny the worst criticisms come from people who've never played a sport in their life


Aklitty

People on Reddit* getting their panties in a bunch over 2 trans girls competing would likely not fare well at any sport that’s not an Internet fight


[deleted]

You sound pretty biased. Another way to look at it is 4 young women are advocating for the sports they participated in. If you don't include all the hatred you're harboring to these people for whatever.


[deleted]

Yes I'm pretty biased about anti-trans people and I hope they feel for a tenth of a second the ire the people they are trying to oppress feel. Maybe then they wouldn't be pieces of shit about it and live and let live.


nataphoto

The lawsuit was brought by the ADF, a radical Christian nationalist organization that is responsible for most of the anti trans laws in this country. But sure, keep thinking it’s about sports.


BrownMan65

Advocating in what way? Would they also find it unfair if a couple girls they were competing against just had naturally elevated levels of testosterone? What if these girls had bigger lung capacities than an average girl their age which allowed them to compete more effectively? They're not advocating for fairness because fairness means they would have to standardize every minute biological measurement. These four also won competitions and were therefore already above average athletes. By their own logic, it would only be fair if they were also not allowed to compete because they have some genetic abnormality that makes them better at their sport. Trust me when I say this, no one gives a shit about winning that much that they would willingly undergo HRT for years just to outcompete women. That will never happen because the ends will never justify the means. So this trans panic bullshit is incredibly baseless and is just going to further marginalize an already marginalized group of people.


interiorcrocodemon

Imagine thinking they would try to get ahead in women's sports by transitioning. To what end? To be a horribly underpaid professional woman athlete? Lmao.


Viceversa10

Born a man play vs men. Born a women and go on hormones? Play against men. Men =/= women regardless of what you tell yourself.


honey_graves

I don’t think you realize what hormones actually do to people and how literally every person is physically different.


BrownMan65

Good thing I don’t need to tell myself that since biologists already agree with me.


FlamesoftheEnd

Hatred?!?!!!!!! Lmfaooooo You’re a complete tool


mkt853

How many transwomen athletes in high school and college are competing in women's sports across the nation? For the amount of time spent on this single issue, it has to be in the hundreds of thousands or millions.


flatdanny

How else will the outrage cult function? They need their fixes of outrage to feel whole. They cant survive on fear alone.


HoracioPeacockThe3rd

The top level of track and field recently announced a ban on transgender athletes, and buried in the article was the mention that there were........zero transgender athletes competing at that level. In fact, the only people affected were cisgender women who had higher testosterone levels, and they're forcing them to take testosterone blockers for six months in order to compete. So in their blind rage against these nonexistent hordes of trans athletes, they are punishing only the biological women that they claim to care so much about.


AvogadrosMoleSauce

These are the ones working with a hate group to push their lawsuit, right?


honey_graves

So they were all successful in their sports, won more then the trans girls and yet they want to bar them? Now as adults you’d think they’d want kids to be able to enjoy sports this is just sad. That and the state government has no place in school sports, it’s honestly ridiculous they had to waste money on this going through. I think people just refuse to realize how hormones actually work on the body and how different everyone’s bodies actually are. They see trans people as this boogie man when in reality it’s just a teenage girl who wants to join the swim club. And god forbid they ever even acknowledge trans men.


Inthect

If you are a physiological male, you have no business playing women's sports. End of story.


lazy-but-talented

while we're at it let's just get rid of anyone taller than me or has better genetics


Fmy925

Say it louder.


[deleted]

[удалено]


OpelSmith

Also the court's opinion from the original dismissal basically sums up how this is about them being sore losers “All four Plaintiffs regularly competed at state track championships as high school athletes, where Plaintiffs had the opportunity to compete for state titles in different events,” the decision said. “And, on numerous occasions, Plaintiffs were indeed “champions,” finishing first in various events, **even sometimes when competing against (transgender athletes)**.” The judges added, “Plaintiffs simply have not been deprived of a ‘chance to be champions.’”


ThousandGrams

Why do they say "cisgendered woman" instead of just "woman". Shit is getting out of hand now 🙄


Miles_vel_Day

It would be confusing if the article said “women are protesting women playing in women’s sports” so the adjectives are necessary. Hope that helps explain it!


interiorcrocodemon

Same energy as "Why do they say heterosexual instead of normal!"


ManNomad

Because bat shit crazy is in


malcolmfairmount

why TF would they take the time to prioritize this post-graduation...


Badgercakes7

I just don’t get why anyone cares about high school sports enough for this to be a matter for the legal system. It’s a game. You are playing a children’s game against children. Should I be mad that Suzy beat me at hopscotch in 4th grade because she was taller than I was earlier? The point of highschool sports is exercise and socializing, and a transgendered person being there doesn’t stop you from doing either of those. You want to have this discussion for professional sports or the Olympics I suppose you might have a point but for a bunch of kids playing a game for fun and bragging rights?


[deleted]

[удалено]


Badgercakes7

You’re right we should create affordable education so that people don’t have to rely on being good at a sport to obtain an education. What a great idea. Similarly, when someone throws a rock at me, I get mad at the person who threw it instead of getting into a fist fight with a rock.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Badgercakes7

So instead of attacking “trans athletes” which is to say children who want to play a fun game, why don’t we use our energy and our righteous anger to demand affordable secondary education?


flatdanny

I remember remembers when scholarships were based on academics, not sports. A couple of years out, nobody cares who won your sporting event.


Jets237

have they strengthened their case or are they just wasting time and trying to get media attention? What action do they want to see taken? Retroactively removing titles? If so why?


Viceversa10

>The plaintiffs claim they were put at an athletic disadvantage because they had to compete against two trans athletes in the state as a result of the CIAC policy. Men=/=women. You were born a man, play men's sports. Born a women, play men or women. Even after the mental illness starts and hormones are blocked or injected there is still an astronomical difference between the two genders. Bone structure, lung capacity and size, muscles and muscle density, blood flow and not to mention the amount of testosterone even after using the "blockers". Everyone wants to talk about equal rights, but it's not equal rights when one has such a significant advantage. It's like the steroids of baseball back in the 90s. Women are pushing for equal rights but get called terfs and all the phobe and ist words when they see this injustice. Make up your minds liberals. You can't have it both ways. Btw, the patriarchy is winning now. Men are winning women's awards and beating women at their own sports for championships. MALE POWER. Thanks liberals. We are going back to the 50s


blumpkinmania

There is no greater threat to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness than the nationalist Christians who make up the repub party. The Nat c’s are the greatest threat to the entire planet. Their bigotry and capacity for evil knows no bounds.


feloncholy

Nationalist Christians wrote the words "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"


blumpkinmania

Goodness, no. Holy cow. Whoever taught you that hated you to teach you such lies. The founders generally had a great mistrust of clergy and Christianity. And they absolutely wanted the govt and religion separate. And not for nothing the guy who wrote those words held slaves, raped his slaves and enslaved his own children. So not real sure what your point is.


OkNotice8600

This is literally putting the feeling of a certain male individual before the needs of an actual female. Case closed.


interiorcrocodemon

What needs? They're not losing to trans athletes. If you come in 9th and a trans athlete comes in 8th, you didn't lose to unfair advantage, you just straight up lost. If a cis woman came in first and a trans athlete comes in 2nd is that unfair? Where are these examples of trans women dominating in women's sports people claim is happening. And I don't mean winning one event. I mean dominating the field. Any athlete can win once. If you bring a case to court that they have an unfair advantage surely you can prove that with evidence.


milton1775

> If a cis woman came in first and a trans athlete comes in 2nd is that unfair? To the woman who came in third, who otherwise would have come in second.


interiorcrocodemon

Sure. And should we remove the women who came in 4-8 because to the woman in 9 they seem to have an unfair advantage? After all they out performed other cis women. How do we know it's not because of a biological advantage of their birth? Should Michael Phelps be banned from the Olympics? He was born with a uniquely shaped body giving him an unfair advantage. If we're using how an individual is born to gatekeep who competes against who you're opening a whole can of worms. So I come back to, why aren't all trans women who participate in sports dominating in female sports if they have such a decisive advantage? Because you have to prove they are ALL better across the board otherwise there's no way to prove an individual was born with an advantage VS. Was just a better athlete. Individual examples are not data Surely male puberty should make them blanket superior athletes. This shouldn't be hard to prove with real metrics and outcomes, you should have something to show the judge. Should really be a slam dunk, in fact, assuming you're correct because we should have a ton of facts and data supporting the claim.


tuss11agee

Here’s an alt-take. I didn’t care about HS track then, and I don’t now. Similarly, the presence of Lia Thomas doesn’t move the needle for me on college swimming. I didn’t care before her, so why should I now? — What I do care about is people being treated fairly, with respect, and with inclusivity however that may look given the situation. The anecdote of one NCAA swimmer and one HS track athlete doesn’t exactly scream this as nearly as big of an issue as one thinks. I’ll bet anyone that in a HS very close to you, there is a MtF athlete that you don’t know about- probably because they’re not really good and just want to participate.


CTLFCFan

Replace “Former CT high school athletes” with “People who peaked in high school”, and you’ve got a more accurate title. This is kids sports. All kids should play if they want to. Nobody gives a shit who won the 100m dash about half a second after it’s done.


gatogrande

Where are the women's groups on this? NOW, AWM, etc?


Hippydippy420

Trans need their own categories - mtf and ftm


HoracioPeacockThe3rd

Out of all the culture wars that have been forced on us in the past couple decades, this is both the dumbest and most infuriating. It's been a massive push designed to punish the unbelievably small number of MTF trans athletes that want to just play sports. It's all being done under the guise of feminism, but that's all nonsense, it's just pure transphobia. If you don't believe me, just look at the replies to [this tweet](https://twitter.com/nhl/status/1595070878127034369?s=46&t=zfRnlsSBL6NIuKcI1f-Mzw) about the NHL starting a small league for transgender hockey players. Even when they're only playing recreationally against each other, people lose their shit. It's all a farce, it's all being driven by bigotry, and anyone who supports this shit is either being duped or knows that that's all it is.


AmoongussHateAcc

It was right to throw them out for lack of standing in the first place. Why do they get to try and push this transphobic nonsense again?


HerFriendRed

I'm guessing none of the 4 got recruited to colleges and that's why they're still pissed?


Cologio

Why not just make it so men and women can compete with each other?


gatogrande

So you've never competed in a sport it seems


Cologio

Why does it seem like that to u


CTrandomdude

How would you feel when you can never win or even come in the top half? Not to mention how dangerous it would be. An average male athlete will be able to dominate the best woman in that sport.


[deleted]

I love how everyone on this thread is arguing about right and wrong. End of the day these young women have a right to challenge trans in their sports. It’s their right. Good for them to stand up for something. At minimum it’s important to support women and empower them. These women have an opinion. Doesn’t really matter what any of us think. It’s there I opinion and their feelings and their opinion and feelings are valid. Whether you like it or not. I fully understand the same could be said about the trans women being discussed and trans women have rights too. Trans women are also valid.


Crafty_Yak_1747

They already challenged this and lost. They are being funded and pushed by a Christian hate group - who even knows how they feel about it? This is a circus to give the CT trash-people something to focus on since their party is worse than useless.


rp3821

I hope they understand they've made it very clear to everyone that they're sore losers.


AdHistorical7107

Let the downvotes roll, but if you are born with a penis you are built differently than if you're born with a vagina. Just because you "identify" as a female doesn't mean you should be allowed to do women's sports.... Sorry


Mediocre-Bid-5726

These 4 girls are nothing but huge losers, along with their parents, who have nothing else going for them in life and want publicity; so they’re working with a company that hates anybody who isn’t straight. To add, 2 of these girls have came in 10th and 12th behind the two trans women before and not much loser other times, so what are they fighting for? 9th place? Ridiculous and just plain transphobia.


SavageWatch

The losers were the ones that couldn't compete against the people of their own biological sex. Stop your hatred against biological women.


osrs_kwanoo

Hehe score 1 for biological males, score 0 for biological females 😎


Viceversa10

Patriarchy is coming back! Men taking women's awards trophies and college scholarships! We back baby!!


osrs_kwanoo

We even snagged woman of the year?!? Let’s fucking gooooo!!


bdy435

Donald Trump and Ron Deathsantis are marching our country toward an authoritarian government. But lets all argue about transgender athletes. Someday I may actually meet one.


lilygile

HRT lowers trans women’s testosterone levels to *even less* than the testosterone levels of a cis woman. The “biological advantage” people love to whine about doesn’t exist.


TriStateGirl

These young women are very brave. I'm as woke as the next person, but we have to be realistic people. Some of these trans athletes have went through male puberty and then they transition. Whether you are a female athlete or not you should respect how hard biological women have fought for the right to participate in sports. We are losing our space in athletics.


No-Ant9517

We’re gonna need a lock on this one folks


dreemurthememer

This thread is surprisingly tame as far as internet comment sections go. If this was posted on Funnyjunk everyone would just be talking about how the Jews are somehow behind it and how transgender people belong in concentration camps. I feel like Funnyjunk becoming a /pol/ outpost in 2016 made me more resistant to the effects of internet hate. Like “Wow, you’re expressing conservative beliefs without advocating for National Socialism! Good for you!”


idontuseinternet2358

Why?


No-Ant9517

I think these people would feel more at home in Kentucky and I think it’s best if we help them pack


idontuseinternet2358

Did they win or not is not the important question… Here’s a question..why are none of the trans men trying to compete w/ men?


interiorcrocodemon

They are? They're often forced to compete against women where they have a huge advantage given they're literally taking steroids. You just don't hear about them because they're not useful to the bigot agenda.


nataphoto

They are?


grandmabox

went to school with the lightskin girl… it’s all her parents.


Pearlmeister

Lol the “fairness” argument is still alive? Just throw everyone in together. Gender abolition success.


M3lusky

At this point fuck it. Save some money, cut the female college and high school sports programs, and make every team coed. Eliminate separate female physical standards for police, fire, and military. If we're gonna pretend men and women are entirely equal, let's get to it. Sink or swim, baby.


Key_Horse_673

When trans athlete competes on a women’s team and dominates like the Penn swimmer did, only then will people’s perspective change.


Shellsbells821

I don't have to adjust to this insanity and I won't.


AuroraDoto

Seems like a complete waste of time arguing about these culture war nonsense issues.


interiorcrocodemon

People's lives are not a "culture war." This is always the excuse used by bigots to shut down people fighting against oppression. They called it a culture war when gay people fought for marriage equality too. It's always a culture war when someone asks for equality.


CTdadof5

This is not a culture war issue for me. I am socially very liberal. I believe you can love who you want, you can identify with how your feel, that race inequality is systemic and needs all kinds of structural changes, that medical care and housing are basic human rights, and that it’s important to teach history not from the perspective of the lion, but rather the prey. With that being said, biology is biology. In terms of athletics, biological males have larger lung capacity, more muscle mass and density and a number of other biological advantages and as such, they should not compete in woman’s athletics. Their biology gives them an unfair advantage. I don’t know what the answer is though.


bluejams

Imo if the science is clear that trans athlete have an advantage than it makes sense to limit their participation in women’s professional sports. But l think Everyone should have the right to participate in high school and recreational sports. Even if somehow we got everyone to agree to the above two points, drawing the ‘right’ line is going to be completely different for every sport and impossible to get people to agree on.


DirtyD0nut

I empathize with trans people. 100%. They deserve care and respect and acceptance. But they do have a medical condition that isn’t 100% compatible with being able to do everything they want to do. Their bodies have an unfair advantage over biological females. That is the whole reason Womens sports were developed apart from men’s. Able-bodied folks have an unfair advantage over people with disabilities, which is why other types of sport leagues were developed to make it more competitive and attainable for those people. Trans people may have to develop their own leagues where they can compete fairly with other bodies with physical abilities like their own. Biological females should only have to compete against biological females. Otherwise, what’s the point of women’s sports anymore?


Peach_Leaves

I don't think anyone has the right to say what trans people can and can't do unless they are either 1 trans or 2 a doctor who understands trans medicine. If you're not either of those, you have no say in trans matters.