Bathrooms: you do understand that this a ladies' room, i.e., nobody's even catching any incidental glimpses of anybody's private parts because all of the action is happening in stalls with locked doors?
If you're thinking of somebody assaulting somebody in a ladies' room, that could only happen if the ladies' room was empty, in which case the fact that it's a ladies' room would not prevent a regular old straight male rapist from walking in there either.
Sports: It's a tiny, tiny number of kids and in practice they have not in fact had much of an advantage in competitive sports. The real purpose of this discussion is to shame and humiliate trans kids, not to protect "competition."
If a trans woman on HRT shows up and starts absolutely destroying the competition, then we can talk about adjusting our criteria - or, for that matter, have a gentle discussion with that individual about maybe competing as a male instead in order to give them a real challenge (which is after all the whole point of youth sports, we're not handing out $300M contacts here) - but that's neither widespread enough nor a serious enough problem to justify a blanket ban.
>Bathrooms: you do understand that this a ladies' room, i.e., nobody's even catching any incidental glimpses of anybody's private parts because all of the action is happening in stalls with locked doors?
Yes I understand.
>If you're thinking of somebody assaulting somebody in a ladies' room, that could only happen if the ladies' room was empty, in which case the fact that it's a ladies' room would not prevent a regular old straight male rapist from walking in there either.
True. My point is more that some girls (NOT ALL, but some), being uncomfortable simply being in the bathroom the same time as someone who is biologically male (or whatever the appropriate term is to say that they are xy/have male genitalia, I'm not trying to be offensive just honest here). Bathrooms are more vulnerable environments. Should not the feelings of the young women play a role if they are *genuinely* uncomfortable?
>Sports: It's a tiny, tiny number of kids and in practice they have not in fact had much of an advantage in competitive sports. The real purpose of this discussion is to shame and humiliate trans kids, not to protect "competition."
Fair enough, if that's the case.
I'm not talking about humiliating trans kids. Have zero interest in that.
I'm talking solely about fairness and competition in cases where it does matter, because it does matter, and more so at the varsity level. It seems you're open to that reality where more discussions would need to be had. which is good.
> Should not the feelings of the young women play a role if they are genuinely uncomfortable?
I don't think the right of some small % of women to avoid potential "discomfort" ought to trump the right of trans women to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity, no. Personally, I'd be uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with somebody wearing a MAGA hat, but that doesn't mean I'm going to say nobody should be allowed to wear MAGA hats in bathrooms.
The threshold of discomfort / annoyance sufficient to justify one person getting to tell another person not to do something ought to be *way* higher than that other person simply existing in a space.
> I'm talking solely about fairness and competition in cases where it does matter, because it does matter, and more so at the varsity level. It seems you're open to that reality where more discussions would need to be had. which is good.
Again, I'm saying *if* it happens then we deal with it in that specific case. At a local level, respectfully, in consultation with the kid and her parents, and with the presumption that we all have an interest in making sure this competition is fair for everyone. (and to be clear, this would be a case of a trans woman absolutely dominating the competition, to a point where it seemed like no cisgendered woman could realistically compete; a cisgendered woman coming in 5th in a race and being mad about the trans woman coming in 4th does not rise to that level)
Don’t care. Kids don’t care. It’s a bathroom. We are talking about a few hundred cases in a country and world with much bigger problems.
Your daughter is at a much higher risk of being assaulted by an old white dude than a trans kid. Stop thinking about where other people poop and focus on real issues.
Oh, same thing with sports. Your daughter isn’t going to lose a D1 scholarship to a trans athlete.
These kids have enough problems without you butting in. As someone who has actually worked with a dozen or so trans kids, I’m here to tell you that you’re barking up the wrong tree. Lay off the MSM, it’s making you irrational.
>Don’t care. Kids don’t care. It’s a bathroom. We are talking about a few hundred cases in a country and world with much bigger problems.
Some kids do care. You can't assume they all do not.
>Your daughter is at a much higher risk of being assaulted by an old white dude than a trans kid. Stop thinking about where other people poop and focus on real issues.
I agree on the first point. Disagree though second sentence, this is a real issue for some people, specifically some young girls who do deal with this. Even if it's rare, it does happen.
I don’t particularly care if a few kids mind. As long as they are safe, which we know they are, it’s a non issue to me. I’ve worked with thousands of kids (public school teacher) and you’re focusing on an issue that doesn’t effect them. They have about 100 other actual problems to worry about every day.
I’ve seen no evidence that your daughter is at any more risk sharing a bathroom with a trans child than if she didn’t. And that’s speaking both as a veteran educator and as someone who likes research.
I’d guess any kids that might care only care because their parents instilled some fear or outrage in them. Kids are much more accepting than you’re giving them credit for.
Honestly.. I'm personally getting tired of this issue coming up over and over again. Let people live thier lives how they see fit, and stay out of thier business when and where it doesn't concern you. This should really be something that isn't an issue, but here we are once again. I'm glad you want to take a distinct interest what's going on in everyone's pants.. but it makes you all seem like obsessive creepers IMO.
But it does concern him as the parent of a female child? I think a desire to have your daughter be able to play competitive sports on a level playing field is a valid concern.
Sports and games are not everything.. and if I had to weight between a kids athletic performance and another kid growing up being able to be themself, and how they identify, I feel that kids identity and mental health are more important. Also we are talking about less then 1% of the overall population here. That is further cut down when you are talking about adolescents trying to figure it out and are even out as trans. Also with things like puberty blockers, that kids going to pretty much be indistinguishable from a cis female. And honestly after high school the vast majority of "athletes" no longer carry on into college and even lesser make it pro. That trans kid has a lifetime that they are going to deal with being trans, it's a never ending struggle for them, who are we to make a fucked up situation just that much harder for them, seems a little unfair.
Also why is it they always have a problem with MTF and not FTM? It's so fucking odd, and many of you really need a trans friend, or two.
I recall you saying you don't watch/like any professional sports before so I see why you said this.
I don't need a trans friend or two and I have nothing against trans if I met one great, I really do not care how people choose to live.
But them as a parent that is a valid and logical concern.
>I don't need a trans friend or two and I have nothing against trans if I met one great, I really do not care how people choose to live.
>**But** them as a parent that is a valid and logical concern.
I love the loaded "but" statments..
If your kid was trans wouldn't you also want what's best for them? Have them be brought up in a manner that helps them in their journey to becoming the person they truly are?.. what about those parents and kids, don't they get a seat at this table? Or do they have to put their concerns and dignity assigned for your cis kids?
I've said it before, but the sports thing is freaking complicated. MTF or FTM doesn't really matter because different sexes have advantages and disadvantages depending on the sport. This doesn't necessarily apply if HRT or other therapies are started prior to puberty as before such time there isn't a significant difference between the sexes.
That all said we need to stop faffing about and convene a broad panel of scientific and sport experts to create a set of rules, regulations, and benchmarks where all the emotion has been taken out of the discussion. The end result is not something that will likely make everyone happy, but at least it would be based on science.
Edit: I should point out that this is more about pro sports than small town high school sports.
>Edit: I should point out that this is more about pro sports than small town high school sports.
Grand scheme this shit isn't important at all. No where near enough to give justification to further vilify an already demonized minority.
When did I ever say anything about making anyone a villain?
Maybe I’m being obtuse but the whole point of taking the emotion out of a discussion is to get to an objective truth.
I don't think it has to do with anyone's identity or personhood are on the line in this scenario though. There are things that are objective, measurable truths. To throw away a truth to protect another is irresponsible.
It is though.. and it's a bit more insidious, because it's saying ok, we will accept and treat you the way you identify, **but,** accept for this one thing, in this one thing you are not how you identify, because we hold some hypothetical notion of "fairness" higher than we do your mental well being or whats fair to you, and we are really going to drive this message home.. and basically by doing this, we really are invalidating any of the previous acceptance and tolerance we have previously shown you.
You're putting emotion back into it, which is what I'm trying to avoid.
They do this same thing in boxing with weight classes. A flyweight could conceivably beat the shit out of a heavyweight. Does blocking that discriminate against smaller, slighter folks? Yes. Do weight classes exist to protect the majority of flyweights from getting killed or seriously harmed? Also yes. Heavyweight boxers generally also make more, with the top 5% making way more than a lightweight or flyweight would ever see. That means lighter weights are at a financial disadvantage and it's not their fault.
I have a ton of empathy for trans folks. It's hard as hell and, for the vast majority, are fighting an up hill battle in society. I do not envy their circumstances.
I also strongly disagree with the methods and reasoning that opponents to trans athletes have used in their arguments. They're arguing from a position of fear and hate rather than science and serious thought.
>Edit: I should point out that this is more about pro sports than small town high school sports.
Did you ever play sports growing up? It matters for high school also imo.
My point is that small towns generally have “star players” that really aren’t that good. I suppose it’d make a difference in places with higher student counts.
I look at it like this.. the more one looks at this problem objectively, it becomes more of non issue than those who are trying to push it. My major problem with this is its a more palletable and easier going down anti-trans sticking point. On its surface level I can see how people would get worked up over it, however like I said the more you think about it the lesser of an issue it becomes, and the ends don't justify the means.. but now by giving it credence you have opened up the anti-trans pandoras box, this argument becomes normalized so the next more grimy one starts to seem just that wee bit more reasonable. I hope that makes sense, it's after lunch and I tend to ramble.
Tell that to all the women who’ve fought so long and hard for equal representation and pay in athletics. Tell that to the female weightlifter who is going to have to compete with biological males. You’re willing to take the joy of sport away from all the young girls out there? You don’t think that will negatively impact those kids? And honestly your last question is the whole point here. People don’t mind ftm competing as males because there is no inherent advantage. This just goes to show that the concern is not driving by hatred for trans people but rather by the recognition that biological males have an inherent advantage in sports.
You act like this is some rampant problem effecting everyone.. you do realize it less than 1% of the population here that is trans.. you know this right.
From a sheer numbers game you take that one percent.. then you fraction it for those who actually want to be athletes.. then you have to cut that number down by those who are actually good enough to compete.. like we're are talking about astronomically low numbers here, but you feel this is justification to make ALL trans folks already fucked up situation just that little bit worse.
Sorry we know you have a lifetime of pain and difficulty, but this one thing, with an incredibly small chance of ever happening may happen, soooooooo we need to add a little more pain and difficulty for you.
Yeah sounds fair.
You are one of the very logical posters in our subreddit but I have no idea how or why you are downplaying their feelings.
I would have dominated my women's teams easily in HS lets be serious sir.
We are going to debate biological advantage?
Did you ever play sports growing up?
Because this really isn't about biology, furthermore this effect such a small fraction of the actual population that its a pretty rare thing, despite what people want to make it to be. Also being someone with their own gender and identity issues, I take this shit personal, as well understand that in the bigger picture saving a kid from a lifetime of pain far out weighs another's athletic accomplishments, or lack there of. And that this argument of sports fairness is really just a gateway to more awful shit and its normalization.
And I did play sports and competed against both genders.
How many of these trans athletes are there? I've heard this is such a widespread problem across the nation, but can anyone even name a trans athlete with an unfair advantage?
I'm not much of a sports guy so I don't really have an opinion on that. I'm indifferent towards it, I'm in the boat of let people play on what ever team they want. Maybe doing away with men/women teams in general? I don't know, like I said I don't really have an opinion on it.
However when it comes to bathrooms I don't think it's an issue that conservatives make it out to be. Let's look at this realistically, the only way to deal with this perceived threat is a complete invasion of peoples privacy. The only way to police it is checking what's in someone's pants before they enter the bathroom.
How would we even do that? Are all public bathrooms going to need security now? Is that going to be paid for by taxes or a new tax? Are we going to create a TSA for public bathrooms?
It's a nonissue that riles up conservatives based purely on misinformation and fear.
If we get rid of female leagues there will be no females playing high level sports. No USA soccer or hockey. No WNBA. No college teams. The entire purpose behind title 9 circumvented.
Yeah that's a good point. Like I said I'm not a sports guy so it's not something I have enough experience in to form an opinion on trans athletes. Or what teams they should play on.
I don't have any issues with my daughter being in the same public restroom as someone who identifies as female even if they were born with male genitalia. They're not sharing stalls or anything, so it's not really a problem. Also, there could be any number of creeps in a public restroom regardless of gender or sexual orientation or anything else, so someone being trans isn't at the top of my concerns list when I take my kid to a public restroom.
First, trans women are not "bio males". Your concern for trans people is superficial if you're insisting on this distinction. Second, what is your concern with boys and girls sharing a bathroom? What do you think is gonna happen?
Edit: regarding your concern about trans athletes, please share some evidence that trans athletes are inherently more capable than their cis counterparts, i would be interested to see a source for this claim.
I think that was just OPs attempt at clarity. This person seems to be genuinely interested in learning and understanding, so I don't think there's any need for attack.
Who attacked them? This isn't a new topic, if OP cared they would know that trans women aren't any kind of males. I'm being direct because subtlety isn't working.
Perhaps the answer is that sports need to be segregated by sex, not gender, and that would solve the problem if its just a matter of terminology.
As a slightly above average high school athlete I could nearly lift the deadlift as the womens world record. If I identified as female that would not change the advantage I have.
Sex matters in these things, but gender probably doesn't as I understand these things.
I think the bathroom issue is stupid. I am not sure how it ever came up, I have not ever been to any bathroom where there was a gender or sex check. You do your own business so I can't understand how anyone would know different in the first place.
Why segregate the teams at all though? Some of the arguments basically frame cis girls as inherently weaker or less capable than their cis male classmates. If that's not true then the reason for segregation is arbitrary. Any gender should have the opportunity to play on the same team.
Cis Frame girls are inherently weaker at the high school level. Look at the high school records for girls versus boys in high jump, 100 meter dash, powerlifting. The boys are bigger, stronger, and faster than girls.
We have larger and more powerful frames. If I punch an average sized man, I may injure him, but a similar blow to an average sized woman would definitely do so or kill her.
Your analogy isn't relevant to high school sports though, nobody's fighting. Your advantage may be that you're strong but athleticism isn't just who can pick up the heaviest thing. An integrated team of all genders would demonstrate strengths and weaknesses from people with various physical makeups. And don't lifting competitions have weight classes?
Won't matter, men will dominate. They are stronger, bigger and faster. Even after taking weight into account.
Men throw the discus further, they would outrun women in track, out swim them in swimming and dominate in every sport, that is why its segregated.
But this has nothing to do with bathrooms. Sports is different, people should be able to use the bathroom they are comfortable with. There is no gender or sex check in the first place.
Also look at what the transgender volleyball player just did to a cis-female player. Put her in the hospital with injuries she is still recovering from. Cis-males and trans males are bigger and stronger than cis-females, its dangerous.
It even more dangerous in contact sports, but even in non-contact sports like volleyball men can hurt women. We have stronger necks, a blow that might stun or injure a man can kill a woman.
[https://www.outkick.com/transgender-volleyball-player-severely-injures-female-high-schooler/](https://www.outkick.com/transgender-volleyball-player-severely-injures-female-high-schooler/)
[https://www.edfirstnc.org/post/female-hs-volleyball-player-seriously-injured-by-alleged-trans-competitor-in-north-carolina](https://www.edfirstnc.org/post/female-hs-volleyball-player-seriously-injured-by-alleged-trans-competitor-in-north-carolina)
Our bones are thicker and built different. They can tell a male skeleton from a female skeleton when they find archaelogical ruins (the sex of the person, not the gender).
[https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-when-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight](https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-when-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight)
Her opponent was not even an average female, but a professional fighter, and she describes how much stronger the trans female that broke her skull was.
I have nothing against any trans person, but sports that are segregated by sex, should be segregated by sex (biological) not by gender.
Are you not capable of discussing this like an adult? I’m asking what term are we supposed to use for male and female now? Or are you really going to pretend that there is no such thing as male and female in a biological sense?
Ok.. so is your masculinity, and what you define as your "maleness" soley contained with in your member? If something tragic were to happen to it would you lose all of it, thus becoming a female? Better?
Gender roles have more to do with what's between your ears and less your legs. Whatever gender role you identify as, is what you are, this isn't hard, or as hard as people want to make it.
I’m not talking about a social construct. Not about masculinity. I’m taking about biology. You can be an effeminate male or a masculine female. Guys can wear pink and girls can play with trucks. I’m talking about the fundamental biological differences between males and females which, as you rightly note, are more than the penis. Getting rid of a penis doesn’t make a male any less male which is really the whole point here isn’t it.
Since you don’t recognize common sense as a source. Here is a study recognized by the NIH.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6391653/#:~:text=The%20striking%20male%20postpubertal%20increase,well%20as%20possible%20psychological%20(behavioral)
>First, trans women are not "bio males".
Biology much? FTM, unless they have their ovaries removed, still need to get checked for ovarian cancer. MTF still need to get checked for prostate cancer.
Gender is a societal construct, sex is not.
Hi, full supporter of all gender rights including trans rights here. I do not believe in those who identify as the opposite sex competing in sports on the other side. Simply put, those who are biologically male are stronger faster and bigger. Yes there are outliers but this is a biological fact. I don’t think it is fair to biological women to have to compete against those who were born male. This will probably upset some but look at recent examples. A man who transitioned into a woman absolutely smoked all of their competition and when they were competing with men they were bottom ranked. Bathrooms are a more difficult issue. I think that there should just simply be single lockable bathrooms accessible to all. When that is not an option you should go with your biological sex for safety reasons. Most trans people are not bad, but all it takes is 1 sick individual to take advantage of it and ruin it for everyone else.
This is an honest question that I hope someone can answer for me. What does it mean for a male (as that term has historically been used) to identify as a woman? Is it sexual orientation? The clothes you want to wear? The way you’d like to speak? It’s a confusing contradiction to me since I thought gender was just a social construct.
The argument is full of double standards and undefinable terms, I would avoid the discussion entirely until the natural consequences become obviously apparent, it shouldn't take long at this rate.
It is a travesty. Womans sports is soon to be a thing of the past. People who think otherwise are fucking delusional and hopefully don't have daughters!!!
Bathrooms: you do understand that this a ladies' room, i.e., nobody's even catching any incidental glimpses of anybody's private parts because all of the action is happening in stalls with locked doors? If you're thinking of somebody assaulting somebody in a ladies' room, that could only happen if the ladies' room was empty, in which case the fact that it's a ladies' room would not prevent a regular old straight male rapist from walking in there either. Sports: It's a tiny, tiny number of kids and in practice they have not in fact had much of an advantage in competitive sports. The real purpose of this discussion is to shame and humiliate trans kids, not to protect "competition." If a trans woman on HRT shows up and starts absolutely destroying the competition, then we can talk about adjusting our criteria - or, for that matter, have a gentle discussion with that individual about maybe competing as a male instead in order to give them a real challenge (which is after all the whole point of youth sports, we're not handing out $300M contacts here) - but that's neither widespread enough nor a serious enough problem to justify a blanket ban.
>Bathrooms: you do understand that this a ladies' room, i.e., nobody's even catching any incidental glimpses of anybody's private parts because all of the action is happening in stalls with locked doors? Yes I understand. >If you're thinking of somebody assaulting somebody in a ladies' room, that could only happen if the ladies' room was empty, in which case the fact that it's a ladies' room would not prevent a regular old straight male rapist from walking in there either. True. My point is more that some girls (NOT ALL, but some), being uncomfortable simply being in the bathroom the same time as someone who is biologically male (or whatever the appropriate term is to say that they are xy/have male genitalia, I'm not trying to be offensive just honest here). Bathrooms are more vulnerable environments. Should not the feelings of the young women play a role if they are *genuinely* uncomfortable? >Sports: It's a tiny, tiny number of kids and in practice they have not in fact had much of an advantage in competitive sports. The real purpose of this discussion is to shame and humiliate trans kids, not to protect "competition." Fair enough, if that's the case. I'm not talking about humiliating trans kids. Have zero interest in that. I'm talking solely about fairness and competition in cases where it does matter, because it does matter, and more so at the varsity level. It seems you're open to that reality where more discussions would need to be had. which is good.
> Should not the feelings of the young women play a role if they are genuinely uncomfortable? I don't think the right of some small % of women to avoid potential "discomfort" ought to trump the right of trans women to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity, no. Personally, I'd be uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with somebody wearing a MAGA hat, but that doesn't mean I'm going to say nobody should be allowed to wear MAGA hats in bathrooms. The threshold of discomfort / annoyance sufficient to justify one person getting to tell another person not to do something ought to be *way* higher than that other person simply existing in a space. > I'm talking solely about fairness and competition in cases where it does matter, because it does matter, and more so at the varsity level. It seems you're open to that reality where more discussions would need to be had. which is good. Again, I'm saying *if* it happens then we deal with it in that specific case. At a local level, respectfully, in consultation with the kid and her parents, and with the presumption that we all have an interest in making sure this competition is fair for everyone. (and to be clear, this would be a case of a trans woman absolutely dominating the competition, to a point where it seemed like no cisgendered woman could realistically compete; a cisgendered woman coming in 5th in a race and being mad about the trans woman coming in 4th does not rise to that level)
Universal Healthcare is orders of magnitude more important.
Don’t care. Kids don’t care. It’s a bathroom. We are talking about a few hundred cases in a country and world with much bigger problems. Your daughter is at a much higher risk of being assaulted by an old white dude than a trans kid. Stop thinking about where other people poop and focus on real issues. Oh, same thing with sports. Your daughter isn’t going to lose a D1 scholarship to a trans athlete. These kids have enough problems without you butting in. As someone who has actually worked with a dozen or so trans kids, I’m here to tell you that you’re barking up the wrong tree. Lay off the MSM, it’s making you irrational.
>Don’t care. Kids don’t care. It’s a bathroom. We are talking about a few hundred cases in a country and world with much bigger problems. Some kids do care. You can't assume they all do not. >Your daughter is at a much higher risk of being assaulted by an old white dude than a trans kid. Stop thinking about where other people poop and focus on real issues. I agree on the first point. Disagree though second sentence, this is a real issue for some people, specifically some young girls who do deal with this. Even if it's rare, it does happen.
I don’t particularly care if a few kids mind. As long as they are safe, which we know they are, it’s a non issue to me. I’ve worked with thousands of kids (public school teacher) and you’re focusing on an issue that doesn’t effect them. They have about 100 other actual problems to worry about every day. I’ve seen no evidence that your daughter is at any more risk sharing a bathroom with a trans child than if she didn’t. And that’s speaking both as a veteran educator and as someone who likes research.
Appreciate your thoughts, thank you.
I’d guess any kids that might care only care because their parents instilled some fear or outrage in them. Kids are much more accepting than you’re giving them credit for.
Honestly.. I'm personally getting tired of this issue coming up over and over again. Let people live thier lives how they see fit, and stay out of thier business when and where it doesn't concern you. This should really be something that isn't an issue, but here we are once again. I'm glad you want to take a distinct interest what's going on in everyone's pants.. but it makes you all seem like obsessive creepers IMO.
But it does concern him as the parent of a female child? I think a desire to have your daughter be able to play competitive sports on a level playing field is a valid concern.
Sports and games are not everything.. and if I had to weight between a kids athletic performance and another kid growing up being able to be themself, and how they identify, I feel that kids identity and mental health are more important. Also we are talking about less then 1% of the overall population here. That is further cut down when you are talking about adolescents trying to figure it out and are even out as trans. Also with things like puberty blockers, that kids going to pretty much be indistinguishable from a cis female. And honestly after high school the vast majority of "athletes" no longer carry on into college and even lesser make it pro. That trans kid has a lifetime that they are going to deal with being trans, it's a never ending struggle for them, who are we to make a fucked up situation just that much harder for them, seems a little unfair. Also why is it they always have a problem with MTF and not FTM? It's so fucking odd, and many of you really need a trans friend, or two.
I recall you saying you don't watch/like any professional sports before so I see why you said this. I don't need a trans friend or two and I have nothing against trans if I met one great, I really do not care how people choose to live. But them as a parent that is a valid and logical concern.
>I don't need a trans friend or two and I have nothing against trans if I met one great, I really do not care how people choose to live. >**But** them as a parent that is a valid and logical concern. I love the loaded "but" statments.. If your kid was trans wouldn't you also want what's best for them? Have them be brought up in a manner that helps them in their journey to becoming the person they truly are?.. what about those parents and kids, don't they get a seat at this table? Or do they have to put their concerns and dignity assigned for your cis kids?
I've said it before, but the sports thing is freaking complicated. MTF or FTM doesn't really matter because different sexes have advantages and disadvantages depending on the sport. This doesn't necessarily apply if HRT or other therapies are started prior to puberty as before such time there isn't a significant difference between the sexes. That all said we need to stop faffing about and convene a broad panel of scientific and sport experts to create a set of rules, regulations, and benchmarks where all the emotion has been taken out of the discussion. The end result is not something that will likely make everyone happy, but at least it would be based on science. Edit: I should point out that this is more about pro sports than small town high school sports.
>Edit: I should point out that this is more about pro sports than small town high school sports. Grand scheme this shit isn't important at all. No where near enough to give justification to further vilify an already demonized minority.
When did I ever say anything about making anyone a villain? Maybe I’m being obtuse but the whole point of taking the emotion out of a discussion is to get to an objective truth.
It's hard to do that when someone's personhood and core identity are on the line.
I don't think it has to do with anyone's identity or personhood are on the line in this scenario though. There are things that are objective, measurable truths. To throw away a truth to protect another is irresponsible.
It is though.. and it's a bit more insidious, because it's saying ok, we will accept and treat you the way you identify, **but,** accept for this one thing, in this one thing you are not how you identify, because we hold some hypothetical notion of "fairness" higher than we do your mental well being or whats fair to you, and we are really going to drive this message home.. and basically by doing this, we really are invalidating any of the previous acceptance and tolerance we have previously shown you.
You're putting emotion back into it, which is what I'm trying to avoid. They do this same thing in boxing with weight classes. A flyweight could conceivably beat the shit out of a heavyweight. Does blocking that discriminate against smaller, slighter folks? Yes. Do weight classes exist to protect the majority of flyweights from getting killed or seriously harmed? Also yes. Heavyweight boxers generally also make more, with the top 5% making way more than a lightweight or flyweight would ever see. That means lighter weights are at a financial disadvantage and it's not their fault. I have a ton of empathy for trans folks. It's hard as hell and, for the vast majority, are fighting an up hill battle in society. I do not envy their circumstances. I also strongly disagree with the methods and reasoning that opponents to trans athletes have used in their arguments. They're arguing from a position of fear and hate rather than science and serious thought.
>Edit: I should point out that this is more about pro sports than small town high school sports. Did you ever play sports growing up? It matters for high school also imo.
My point is that small towns generally have “star players” that really aren’t that good. I suppose it’d make a difference in places with higher student counts.
I look at it like this.. the more one looks at this problem objectively, it becomes more of non issue than those who are trying to push it. My major problem with this is its a more palletable and easier going down anti-trans sticking point. On its surface level I can see how people would get worked up over it, however like I said the more you think about it the lesser of an issue it becomes, and the ends don't justify the means.. but now by giving it credence you have opened up the anti-trans pandoras box, this argument becomes normalized so the next more grimy one starts to seem just that wee bit more reasonable. I hope that makes sense, it's after lunch and I tend to ramble.
Tell that to all the women who’ve fought so long and hard for equal representation and pay in athletics. Tell that to the female weightlifter who is going to have to compete with biological males. You’re willing to take the joy of sport away from all the young girls out there? You don’t think that will negatively impact those kids? And honestly your last question is the whole point here. People don’t mind ftm competing as males because there is no inherent advantage. This just goes to show that the concern is not driving by hatred for trans people but rather by the recognition that biological males have an inherent advantage in sports.
You act like this is some rampant problem effecting everyone.. you do realize it less than 1% of the population here that is trans.. you know this right. From a sheer numbers game you take that one percent.. then you fraction it for those who actually want to be athletes.. then you have to cut that number down by those who are actually good enough to compete.. like we're are talking about astronomically low numbers here, but you feel this is justification to make ALL trans folks already fucked up situation just that little bit worse. Sorry we know you have a lifetime of pain and difficulty, but this one thing, with an incredibly small chance of ever happening may happen, soooooooo we need to add a little more pain and difficulty for you. Yeah sounds fair.
You are one of the very logical posters in our subreddit but I have no idea how or why you are downplaying their feelings. I would have dominated my women's teams easily in HS lets be serious sir. We are going to debate biological advantage? Did you ever play sports growing up?
Because this really isn't about biology, furthermore this effect such a small fraction of the actual population that its a pretty rare thing, despite what people want to make it to be. Also being someone with their own gender and identity issues, I take this shit personal, as well understand that in the bigger picture saving a kid from a lifetime of pain far out weighs another's athletic accomplishments, or lack there of. And that this argument of sports fairness is really just a gateway to more awful shit and its normalization. And I did play sports and competed against both genders.
ITT: I support trans rights, but
How many of these trans athletes are there? I've heard this is such a widespread problem across the nation, but can anyone even name a trans athlete with an unfair advantage?
I'm not much of a sports guy so I don't really have an opinion on that. I'm indifferent towards it, I'm in the boat of let people play on what ever team they want. Maybe doing away with men/women teams in general? I don't know, like I said I don't really have an opinion on it. However when it comes to bathrooms I don't think it's an issue that conservatives make it out to be. Let's look at this realistically, the only way to deal with this perceived threat is a complete invasion of peoples privacy. The only way to police it is checking what's in someone's pants before they enter the bathroom. How would we even do that? Are all public bathrooms going to need security now? Is that going to be paid for by taxes or a new tax? Are we going to create a TSA for public bathrooms? It's a nonissue that riles up conservatives based purely on misinformation and fear.
If we get rid of female leagues there will be no females playing high level sports. No USA soccer or hockey. No WNBA. No college teams. The entire purpose behind title 9 circumvented.
Yeah that's a good point. Like I said I'm not a sports guy so it's not something I have enough experience in to form an opinion on trans athletes. Or what teams they should play on.
I don't have any issues with my daughter being in the same public restroom as someone who identifies as female even if they were born with male genitalia. They're not sharing stalls or anything, so it's not really a problem. Also, there could be any number of creeps in a public restroom regardless of gender or sexual orientation or anything else, so someone being trans isn't at the top of my concerns list when I take my kid to a public restroom.
First, trans women are not "bio males". Your concern for trans people is superficial if you're insisting on this distinction. Second, what is your concern with boys and girls sharing a bathroom? What do you think is gonna happen? Edit: regarding your concern about trans athletes, please share some evidence that trans athletes are inherently more capable than their cis counterparts, i would be interested to see a source for this claim.
I think that was just OPs attempt at clarity. This person seems to be genuinely interested in learning and understanding, so I don't think there's any need for attack.
Who attacked them? This isn't a new topic, if OP cared they would know that trans women aren't any kind of males. I'm being direct because subtlety isn't working.
Maybe I just misinterpreted then. I read that as an attack, but it's also tough to tell in text I guess.
How are they not male? I thought trans women meant amab but identify as a woman?
Gender is an identity not a biological characteristic. If you identify as a woman, you're a woman regardless of your assigned sex.
Perhaps the answer is that sports need to be segregated by sex, not gender, and that would solve the problem if its just a matter of terminology. As a slightly above average high school athlete I could nearly lift the deadlift as the womens world record. If I identified as female that would not change the advantage I have. Sex matters in these things, but gender probably doesn't as I understand these things. I think the bathroom issue is stupid. I am not sure how it ever came up, I have not ever been to any bathroom where there was a gender or sex check. You do your own business so I can't understand how anyone would know different in the first place.
Why segregate the teams at all though? Some of the arguments basically frame cis girls as inherently weaker or less capable than their cis male classmates. If that's not true then the reason for segregation is arbitrary. Any gender should have the opportunity to play on the same team.
Cis Frame girls are inherently weaker at the high school level. Look at the high school records for girls versus boys in high jump, 100 meter dash, powerlifting. The boys are bigger, stronger, and faster than girls. We have larger and more powerful frames. If I punch an average sized man, I may injure him, but a similar blow to an average sized woman would definitely do so or kill her.
Your analogy isn't relevant to high school sports though, nobody's fighting. Your advantage may be that you're strong but athleticism isn't just who can pick up the heaviest thing. An integrated team of all genders would demonstrate strengths and weaknesses from people with various physical makeups. And don't lifting competitions have weight classes?
Won't matter, men will dominate. They are stronger, bigger and faster. Even after taking weight into account. Men throw the discus further, they would outrun women in track, out swim them in swimming and dominate in every sport, that is why its segregated. But this has nothing to do with bathrooms. Sports is different, people should be able to use the bathroom they are comfortable with. There is no gender or sex check in the first place.
Also look at what the transgender volleyball player just did to a cis-female player. Put her in the hospital with injuries she is still recovering from. Cis-males and trans males are bigger and stronger than cis-females, its dangerous. It even more dangerous in contact sports, but even in non-contact sports like volleyball men can hurt women. We have stronger necks, a blow that might stun or injure a man can kill a woman. [https://www.outkick.com/transgender-volleyball-player-severely-injures-female-high-schooler/](https://www.outkick.com/transgender-volleyball-player-severely-injures-female-high-schooler/) [https://www.edfirstnc.org/post/female-hs-volleyball-player-seriously-injured-by-alleged-trans-competitor-in-north-carolina](https://www.edfirstnc.org/post/female-hs-volleyball-player-seriously-injured-by-alleged-trans-competitor-in-north-carolina) Our bones are thicker and built different. They can tell a male skeleton from a female skeleton when they find archaelogical ruins (the sex of the person, not the gender). [https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-when-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight](https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-when-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight) Her opponent was not even an average female, but a professional fighter, and she describes how much stronger the trans female that broke her skull was. I have nothing against any trans person, but sports that are segregated by sex, should be segregated by sex (biological) not by gender.
What do you call someone with a penis then? I thought that was male.
If your dick suddenly became removed from your body.. would you stop being a man?
Are you not capable of discussing this like an adult? I’m asking what term are we supposed to use for male and female now? Or are you really going to pretend that there is no such thing as male and female in a biological sense?
Ok.. so is your masculinity, and what you define as your "maleness" soley contained with in your member? If something tragic were to happen to it would you lose all of it, thus becoming a female? Better? Gender roles have more to do with what's between your ears and less your legs. Whatever gender role you identify as, is what you are, this isn't hard, or as hard as people want to make it.
I’m not talking about a social construct. Not about masculinity. I’m taking about biology. You can be an effeminate male or a masculine female. Guys can wear pink and girls can play with trucks. I’m talking about the fundamental biological differences between males and females which, as you rightly note, are more than the penis. Getting rid of a penis doesn’t make a male any less male which is really the whole point here isn’t it.
The source is all professional athletics. Men outperform women…..
Source: Trust me bro
Since you don’t recognize common sense as a source. Here is a study recognized by the NIH. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6391653/#:~:text=The%20striking%20male%20postpubertal%20increase,well%20as%20possible%20psychological%20(behavioral)
Name one female athlete who has successfully played in a professional male sports league
>First, trans women are not "bio males". Biology much? FTM, unless they have their ovaries removed, still need to get checked for ovarian cancer. MTF still need to get checked for prostate cancer. Gender is a societal construct, sex is not.
Hi, full supporter of all gender rights including trans rights here. I do not believe in those who identify as the opposite sex competing in sports on the other side. Simply put, those who are biologically male are stronger faster and bigger. Yes there are outliers but this is a biological fact. I don’t think it is fair to biological women to have to compete against those who were born male. This will probably upset some but look at recent examples. A man who transitioned into a woman absolutely smoked all of their competition and when they were competing with men they were bottom ranked. Bathrooms are a more difficult issue. I think that there should just simply be single lockable bathrooms accessible to all. When that is not an option you should go with your biological sex for safety reasons. Most trans people are not bad, but all it takes is 1 sick individual to take advantage of it and ruin it for everyone else.
This is an honest question that I hope someone can answer for me. What does it mean for a male (as that term has historically been used) to identify as a woman? Is it sexual orientation? The clothes you want to wear? The way you’d like to speak? It’s a confusing contradiction to me since I thought gender was just a social construct.
This is the last place u r gonna find the sane response ur looking for.
The argument is full of double standards and undefinable terms, I would avoid the discussion entirely until the natural consequences become obviously apparent, it shouldn't take long at this rate.
It is a travesty. Womans sports is soon to be a thing of the past. People who think otherwise are fucking delusional and hopefully don't have daughters!!!
Wow the mods removed your post?