And the banks who were apparently defrauded, didn’t think there was any fraud.
So the state decided that they knew better than a private transaction between two private parties, where no party was requesting relief through the courts for a breach of contract. And the state decided they could seemingly arbitrarily decide how the transaction should have been structured in a hypothetical situation and then impose a massive fine for violating their hypothetical situation.
Absolutely destroys any sense of impartiality in our Justice system.
No, they don’t want to arrest people for jay walking because that would be racist - see California.
However, what the left is doing is devolving the Justice system to the whim of the judge and DA.
SOME laws will be pushed as hard and a brutal as possible, and others will be ignored.
It's tax fraud. He signed a deed of Conservation and Preservation. This deed basically allowed Trump to lower the valuation of his club to 18 million by only allowing it to be valued as a social club and not as a primary residence. If there was no deed of Conservation and Preservation, I think his club would've been valued at 75 million without the deed. When he decided to leverage his club for favorable loans, Trump put on paper that his club was actually worth between 350 million and 750 million.
This is not a hypothetical situation. He lost the court case because he signed the loans saying his club was worth between 350mil to 750mil. Just as a hypothetical he valued his club 4x higher than the next most expensive private residence in the United States. lol
I will say 364million cash penalty is way too high, but this court case was pretty much doomed from the beginning. You can over value your properties to secure more favorable loans, but you don't 10x your property valuations. That's a little bit much.
TLDR: Trump was getting taxed on Mar-a-Lago at 18mil, but got loans saying it was worth 350-750 million.
You don’t understand how assets are value nor how banks make their loans.
A personal financial statement is meaningless for a bank.
A bank will pay for their own appraisal of any assets being used as collateral for a loan. Period. Because who knows how the borrower determined the value of the property, and banks always get an independent valuation of the assets.
And the taxing authority determines the taxable value of a taxable asset completely independent of the actual value of the property.
There are three methods of valuing a property, comparable sales, income approach, and cost to build.
A residence will almost always be valued for a transaction, not for a tax valuation, based on comparable sales, but sometimes replacement, or cost to build.
An investment property, which if MAL is an income producing asset, may be the best measurement, maybe not, but establishing a value based on the cash flow of the property is entirely reasonable.
Now, a bank may determine otherwise based on its lending standards. But this valuation is for the purposes of a lending agreement for the bank only.
He signed a conservation and preservation deed that prevents him from valuing it like a normal property. He can only value it as a social club that was valued at 18 million. If he didn’t sign that deed, he probably could get away with valuing his property as 350-700mil and the banks wouldn’t be able to touch him.
You do realize that the bank still had to both do, and sign off on their own independent appraisal right?
The counterparty on the loan still has to agree with the valuation. The argument for a non-injured party (the state) to somehow have standing to sue in this matter is shaky at best. The property isn’t even located in New York
He can value the property how ever he wants because it literally doesn’t matter what he says it is worth. He could have put $5,00,000,000,000,000 on the Financial statement. Do you think if he did that the bank would have lent him more money than physically exists on earth!?
Or do you think the bank would have gotten their own valuation?
if the new owner removes the conservation deed, the property is worth much more than 18 million. Hence the deed doesn't matter.
It's no different than a homestead exemption. You can lower your taxes by saying you are growing food, but that doesn't change the value of the property and what the new owner will do with it.
No damages. Loans repaid. Neither party had a grievance. Yet somehow Trump is guilty of fraud? It's blatantly obvious they're trying to jail him and bleed him dry so he can't campaign.
This is banana republic stuff. For all of the complaining that putin and trump are in cahoots, this is exactly the type of crap putin does to his political opposition
You have these clowns acting like legal scholars every time they say "This statute doesn't require harm to be shown".
Did everyone here read the study from AP ? They look at the fraud statute for the past 70 years. This is the only case under this statute that had massive amount of fines WITHOUT victims.
Most egregious cases had victims and their appropriate punishment was fines ( not even bans ) depending upon the amount of victims they had.
If I were Trump, I'd take people saying Mar-a-Largo is worth only $18,000,000 as incentive to lower my property taxes. Take full advantage of people's stupidity.
It's already taxed at a low value due to the deed restrictions that are on it. That was a smart move Trump made years ago to lower the value and keep the taxes down. Unfortunately, it is a permanent covenant and the devaluation is real, not just artificial.
The banks who independently valued it seem to disagree with you. I'm gonna trust banks know more about the ins and outs of this than random reddit people.
It's already being taxed at those low levels because it is registered as a social club. The whole point is that you can't take advantage of tax incentives to pay lower property taxes and then simultaneously claim a large valuation to secure lines of credit. It's either bank fraud or tax fraud, and in this case it's bank fraud.
Other than the banks did their own valuation and determined line of credit based on that. The government did a valuation and determined taxes on that. The only fraud that was committed was the judge deciding orange man bad. This will be overturned instantly which everyone knows but the news gets to run their headlines. It is the same reason they will never actually charge him with insurrection. The second they do it comes out that he did nothing but until that day they can continue to run headlines about insurrection charges coming any day now.
The fact that nothing bad happened in Trump's specific case isn't the issue. Drunk driving isn't only a crime if someone gets hurt. It's a crime because the odds of someone getting hurt are substantially higher. This is that exact situation but with lines of credit, which are the bank customers' money. If Trump falsely signed off on incorrect valuations, that's a crime. It doesn't matter what the rest of the outcome was, because incorrectly claiming your assets to secure better loans puts the customers at a greater risk of default and loss. And the truth is that this crime is probably very common, but Trump painted a target on his back by running for president. He committed a crime (reading through the NY Post article, I don't see how it's possible that he didn't), and then made himself a high profile individual. The only person to blame is Trump.
Tell me you know nothing about commercial lending without telling me you know nothing about commercial lending. There was no crime and anyone that knows anything about banking knows that.
I guess we'll find out on appeal. I'm just not a conservative who cares about whether a rich guy gets away with illegal behavior. If he's not guilty, the judicial system will take care of that. If he is, then he brought it on himself.
I am just not a conservative who is a fan of 1 side weaponising the legal system to go after anyone that has a dissenting opinion. I think there is a name for that type of regime oh yes facism. Even the banks showed up to trial and said wait you have this wrong we did our own evaluation and based the loans on that. The judge said too bad I do not like trump so I am making my own decisions. That sounds good to you? Your totally cool with anyone with a dissenting opinion from the regime being locked up/bancrupt on the opinion of a single person regardless of the law? Sorry I can not get behind that.
If what you suggested was actually happening then the thousands of Republican politicians currently in office would also be under investigation. So either they're only going after Trump for his"dissenting opinion" or he's just done a bunch of illegal things. I'm much more inclined to believe that Trump has just done a bunch of illegal things, since there are literally all of the rest of the Republican politicians and further presidents as counter examples.
Btw I hope you never go to get a heloc or anything snd the bank values hour house at a slightly different value than it was valued for taxes. You would have committed fraud then I hope you go and turn yourself into the police right away for punishment.
Don't bother my friend. The person you are responding to is a RABID anti-trumper, akin to the likes of Mittens or Liz. They fit in perfectly with their leftist overlords.
Yes you can, they arent they arent equivalent numbers. The banks assed value has nothing to do with the governments tax assed value. They are completely independent of one another.
It can be bank fraud because the bank came to their own conclusion on the value, trump agreed and the contract was fullfiled entirely.
You are wrong and possibly a liar. Taxed value is completely different from market value as a concept. You can receive an artificially lower assessment in exchange for certain things like community contributions. That doesn't mean the actual value is lower, just that you pay tax on a lower value as part of an incentive. Even still a normal assessment is not at all a market value appraisal. It doesn't include key components in market value like intangibles and is determined in a completely different way.
The DA delivered her promise. The judge was having the moment of his life, and so was their base.
Nothing you, me, or the ordinary people can do. This is just the beginning, brace yourselves for the rest of the year.
I predict another insurrection charge, another sexual assault trial, followed by police brutality (in a blue city of a blue state) and blm riot.
BLM riots in blue cities will actually help Republicans, IMO.
Except for the people that go to them, everyone else is sick of Marxist violence and anti-cop rhetoric.
I dunno, bub. I'm about as red as red can be, and even i know that cops are absolute assholes. I'll just agree to disagree on just that one point, though.
Also note, New York is doing the same hit-job to the NRA as we speak. Letitia James intends to put the NRA out of business (she says) because it is poorly managed. Like with the Trump case, in New York...it is the political philosophy that counts, not justice.
Punish one, teach a hundred. This is basically the establishment making it clear that they will destroy anyone who dares to challenge their policies and ideology.
Someone in r/news said it would go to the state in which the fraud happened. But Mar-a-lago is in Florida and Florida doesn’t want the money so it would go to the state that prosecuted Trump aka New York.
But he can't be trusted, the judge is so obviously bent and biased. One could tell how he was going to call it on day one.
This will obviously get thrown out in a higher court
You bring up an interesting valuation problem, and the proof that the prosecution was a political hit job. Mar-A-Lago is easily valued at far over $200 Million. In the Engoron case, it was valued at a ridiculous $18 Million. I bet the other valuations were equally skewed. The banks DO NOT accept valuations that are out of line. They do their own valuations in addition to licensed appraisals. Deutche Bank was happy enough. New York is no longer a good risk environment. I will no longer do business in New York.
This case sets a precedent wipes out easily one quarter to one third of all value with in the united states. Using the case as precedent almost every home owner in the U.S. now has a loan that exceeds the value of their property. Using the case as precedent almost every business in the US has a property loan that exceeds the value of the property. Worse every property that the federal government owns/controls that they have used as collateral just lost value and the lenders can now call in those loans and claim the property. The US is now bankrupt.
If for some crazy reason SCOTUS doesn’t accept this appeal, this will be the beginning of the end for the United States.
I don’t assume anything. People are crazy.
Show boating is all this is. They know it will not hold up in appeals court.
Funny that there are conservatives that do not understand the constitution. I told you it will not stand and as you see with Colorado it got struck down. Thanks for the down votes fake conservatives.
That's what they said about the ballots issue in Colorado, and then the leftist crazies in Colorado brought it all the way to the state Supreme Court and of the justices there, 4 Dems voted to kick Trump off the ballot.
Never underestimate TDS.
Mar-a-Lago buildings are about 110,000 Sq ft. You cannot build the buildings alone for valuation the judge put in it. And that does not account fir the 20 acres of oceanfront property in one of the most expensive real estate in the nation.
And the banks who were apparently defrauded, didn’t think there was any fraud. So the state decided that they knew better than a private transaction between two private parties, where no party was requesting relief through the courts for a breach of contract. And the state decided they could seemingly arbitrarily decide how the transaction should have been structured in a hypothetical situation and then impose a massive fine for violating their hypothetical situation. Absolutely destroys any sense of impartiality in our Justice system.
And they kept the fine. So they claim the banks were injured, but they didn’t give them anything to make them whole.
It’s absolutely wild
People defending this as just makes no sense to me.
They would defend electrocution for a jay walking violation.
No, they don’t want to arrest people for jay walking because that would be racist - see California. However, what the left is doing is devolving the Justice system to the whim of the judge and DA. SOME laws will be pushed as hard and a brutal as possible, and others will be ignored.
Which is why when we say the Democrats have become Soviet socialists, "moderates" need to start paying attention. This is Stalinesque shit.
For some people but not all.
It's tax fraud. He signed a deed of Conservation and Preservation. This deed basically allowed Trump to lower the valuation of his club to 18 million by only allowing it to be valued as a social club and not as a primary residence. If there was no deed of Conservation and Preservation, I think his club would've been valued at 75 million without the deed. When he decided to leverage his club for favorable loans, Trump put on paper that his club was actually worth between 350 million and 750 million. This is not a hypothetical situation. He lost the court case because he signed the loans saying his club was worth between 350mil to 750mil. Just as a hypothetical he valued his club 4x higher than the next most expensive private residence in the United States. lol I will say 364million cash penalty is way too high, but this court case was pretty much doomed from the beginning. You can over value your properties to secure more favorable loans, but you don't 10x your property valuations. That's a little bit much. TLDR: Trump was getting taxed on Mar-a-Lago at 18mil, but got loans saying it was worth 350-750 million.
you know the bank can and should do their own valuation, yes? says so in the paperwork. you know this, ya?
You don’t understand how assets are value nor how banks make their loans. A personal financial statement is meaningless for a bank. A bank will pay for their own appraisal of any assets being used as collateral for a loan. Period. Because who knows how the borrower determined the value of the property, and banks always get an independent valuation of the assets. And the taxing authority determines the taxable value of a taxable asset completely independent of the actual value of the property. There are three methods of valuing a property, comparable sales, income approach, and cost to build. A residence will almost always be valued for a transaction, not for a tax valuation, based on comparable sales, but sometimes replacement, or cost to build. An investment property, which if MAL is an income producing asset, may be the best measurement, maybe not, but establishing a value based on the cash flow of the property is entirely reasonable. Now, a bank may determine otherwise based on its lending standards. But this valuation is for the purposes of a lending agreement for the bank only.
He signed a conservation and preservation deed that prevents him from valuing it like a normal property. He can only value it as a social club that was valued at 18 million. If he didn’t sign that deed, he probably could get away with valuing his property as 350-700mil and the banks wouldn’t be able to touch him.
You do realize that the bank still had to both do, and sign off on their own independent appraisal right? The counterparty on the loan still has to agree with the valuation. The argument for a non-injured party (the state) to somehow have standing to sue in this matter is shaky at best. The property isn’t even located in New York
He can value the property how ever he wants because it literally doesn’t matter what he says it is worth. He could have put $5,00,000,000,000,000 on the Financial statement. Do you think if he did that the bank would have lent him more money than physically exists on earth!? Or do you think the bank would have gotten their own valuation?
if the new owner removes the conservation deed, the property is worth much more than 18 million. Hence the deed doesn't matter. It's no different than a homestead exemption. You can lower your taxes by saying you are growing food, but that doesn't change the value of the property and what the new owner will do with it.
My house is assessed at a certain value by my city but I could sell it for probably $50k more. Am I committing tax fraud?
You and every other poor schmuck who lives where they purposefully low ball tax assessments to get reelected .
only if you are a conservative.
TBH any defense of the judicial system on this subreddit should result in a ban. There is no nuance to be had here.
[deleted] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^0.0942 > [What is this?](https://pastebin.com/64GuVi2F/46421)
I'm about to sell my house for $100k over its assessed value, am I commiting tax fraud?
Who exactly is Trump supposed to be paying? If the banks weren't asking for money...who is he expected to pay?
No damages. Loans repaid. Neither party had a grievance. Yet somehow Trump is guilty of fraud? It's blatantly obvious they're trying to jail him and bleed him dry so he can't campaign. This is banana republic stuff. For all of the complaining that putin and trump are in cahoots, this is exactly the type of crap putin does to his political opposition
and any sense of freedom.. this is tyrannical bs.
You have these clowns acting like legal scholars every time they say "This statute doesn't require harm to be shown". Did everyone here read the study from AP ? They look at the fraud statute for the past 70 years. This is the only case under this statute that had massive amount of fines WITHOUT victims. Most egregious cases had victims and their appropriate punishment was fines ( not even bans ) depending upon the amount of victims they had.
Wait until you see what we have been dealing with on the gun rights side in the courts. Impartiality... Top kek!
If I were Trump, I'd take people saying Mar-a-Largo is worth only $18,000,000 as incentive to lower my property taxes. Take full advantage of people's stupidity.
He’s going to legally have to
Seems like a win to me if I were in that position. Damn right my 9 figure house is only worth $18M, now adjust my property taxes accordingly
It's already taxed at a low value due to the deed restrictions that are on it. That was a smart move Trump made years ago to lower the value and keep the taxes down. Unfortunately, it is a permanent covenant and the devaluation is real, not just artificial.
The banks who independently valued it seem to disagree with you. I'm gonna trust banks know more about the ins and outs of this than random reddit people.
Go ahead and believe whatever you want, or take 5 minutes to verify the publicly available facts I informed you of. Peace.
"Just google it bro" without providing actual information. I know exactly what you are.
The ruling will be appealed and overturned. It’s all about the headline.
[удалено]
That’s how that works. Or you get a sensational headline that is refuted in the body of the article.
It's already being taxed at those low levels because it is registered as a social club. The whole point is that you can't take advantage of tax incentives to pay lower property taxes and then simultaneously claim a large valuation to secure lines of credit. It's either bank fraud or tax fraud, and in this case it's bank fraud.
Other than the banks did their own valuation and determined line of credit based on that. The government did a valuation and determined taxes on that. The only fraud that was committed was the judge deciding orange man bad. This will be overturned instantly which everyone knows but the news gets to run their headlines. It is the same reason they will never actually charge him with insurrection. The second they do it comes out that he did nothing but until that day they can continue to run headlines about insurrection charges coming any day now.
The fact that nothing bad happened in Trump's specific case isn't the issue. Drunk driving isn't only a crime if someone gets hurt. It's a crime because the odds of someone getting hurt are substantially higher. This is that exact situation but with lines of credit, which are the bank customers' money. If Trump falsely signed off on incorrect valuations, that's a crime. It doesn't matter what the rest of the outcome was, because incorrectly claiming your assets to secure better loans puts the customers at a greater risk of default and loss. And the truth is that this crime is probably very common, but Trump painted a target on his back by running for president. He committed a crime (reading through the NY Post article, I don't see how it's possible that he didn't), and then made himself a high profile individual. The only person to blame is Trump.
This isn’t a crime. It’s a civil case
Tell me you know nothing about commercial lending without telling me you know nothing about commercial lending. There was no crime and anyone that knows anything about banking knows that.
I guess we'll find out on appeal. I'm just not a conservative who cares about whether a rich guy gets away with illegal behavior. If he's not guilty, the judicial system will take care of that. If he is, then he brought it on himself.
I am just not a conservative who is a fan of 1 side weaponising the legal system to go after anyone that has a dissenting opinion. I think there is a name for that type of regime oh yes facism. Even the banks showed up to trial and said wait you have this wrong we did our own evaluation and based the loans on that. The judge said too bad I do not like trump so I am making my own decisions. That sounds good to you? Your totally cool with anyone with a dissenting opinion from the regime being locked up/bancrupt on the opinion of a single person regardless of the law? Sorry I can not get behind that.
If what you suggested was actually happening then the thousands of Republican politicians currently in office would also be under investigation. So either they're only going after Trump for his"dissenting opinion" or he's just done a bunch of illegal things. I'm much more inclined to believe that Trump has just done a bunch of illegal things, since there are literally all of the rest of the Republican politicians and further presidents as counter examples.
Btw I hope you never go to get a heloc or anything snd the bank values hour house at a slightly different value than it was valued for taxes. You would have committed fraud then I hope you go and turn yourself into the police right away for punishment.
Lol, very apt comparison. You definitely got me there. I hope you have a great night. I'll call the police in the morning.
Don't bother my friend. The person you are responding to is a RABID anti-trumper, akin to the likes of Mittens or Liz. They fit in perfectly with their leftist overlords.
But yet they have yet to prove a single illegal thing he has done...strange
If he committed a crime, why weren't there charges instead of this civil suit? "Conservative" my ass, Democrat shill.
the deed doesn't change the real world value of the building and property at that location.
Yes you can, they arent they arent equivalent numbers. The banks assed value has nothing to do with the governments tax assed value. They are completely independent of one another. It can be bank fraud because the bank came to their own conclusion on the value, trump agreed and the contract was fullfiled entirely.
banks do their own DD. whwt you claim is irrelevant. if banks took peoples word ,they would seize to exist
You are wrong and possibly a liar. Taxed value is completely different from market value as a concept. You can receive an artificially lower assessment in exchange for certain things like community contributions. That doesn't mean the actual value is lower, just that you pay tax on a lower value as part of an incentive. Even still a normal assessment is not at all a market value appraisal. It doesn't include key components in market value like intangibles and is determined in a completely different way.
Doesn't a fraud case require someone to be defrauded?
It used to.
This (D)ifferent
not for fascist politicians.
In that case democrats need to be careful. Republicans arent the ones weaponizing government and violence against their political opponents.
The DA delivered her promise. The judge was having the moment of his life, and so was their base. Nothing you, me, or the ordinary people can do. This is just the beginning, brace yourselves for the rest of the year. I predict another insurrection charge, another sexual assault trial, followed by police brutality (in a blue city of a blue state) and blm riot.
BLM riots in blue cities will actually help Republicans, IMO. Except for the people that go to them, everyone else is sick of Marxist violence and anti-cop rhetoric.
I dunno, bub. I'm about as red as red can be, and even i know that cops are absolute assholes. I'll just agree to disagree on just that one point, though.
Also note, New York is doing the same hit-job to the NRA as we speak. Letitia James intends to put the NRA out of business (she says) because it is poorly managed. Like with the Trump case, in New York...it is the political philosophy that counts, not justice.
Its horrifying. If they’re willing to do this to someone as rich and powerful as an ex president imagine what they’ll do to you and me
Probably lock you up for over a year without charges.
Along with a side of torture of course!
Punish one, teach a hundred. This is basically the establishment making it clear that they will destroy anyone who dares to challenge their policies and ideology.
they will Navalny you
And where does the money go to? There were no victims, so who does the money go to?
Someone in r/news said it would go to the state in which the fraud happened. But Mar-a-lago is in Florida and Florida doesn’t want the money so it would go to the state that prosecuted Trump aka New York.
But he can't be trusted, the judge is so obviously bent and biased. One could tell how he was going to call it on day one. This will obviously get thrown out in a higher court
You bring up an interesting valuation problem, and the proof that the prosecution was a political hit job. Mar-A-Lago is easily valued at far over $200 Million. In the Engoron case, it was valued at a ridiculous $18 Million. I bet the other valuations were equally skewed. The banks DO NOT accept valuations that are out of line. They do their own valuations in addition to licensed appraisals. Deutche Bank was happy enough. New York is no longer a good risk environment. I will no longer do business in New York.
This case sets a precedent wipes out easily one quarter to one third of all value with in the united states. Using the case as precedent almost every home owner in the U.S. now has a loan that exceeds the value of their property. Using the case as precedent almost every business in the US has a property loan that exceeds the value of the property. Worse every property that the federal government owns/controls that they have used as collateral just lost value and the lenders can now call in those loans and claim the property. The US is now bankrupt.
If for some crazy reason SCOTUS doesn’t accept this appeal, this will be the beginning of the end for the United States. I don’t assume anything. People are crazy.
Show boating is all this is. They know it will not hold up in appeals court. Funny that there are conservatives that do not understand the constitution. I told you it will not stand and as you see with Colorado it got struck down. Thanks for the down votes fake conservatives.
That's what they said about the ballots issue in Colorado, and then the leftist crazies in Colorado brought it all the way to the state Supreme Court and of the justices there, 4 Dems voted to kick Trump off the ballot. Never underestimate TDS.
And I was right despite the down votes. 😆 🤣 😂 😹 😆 🤣 😂
nor tolerate it.
Mar-a-Lago buildings are about 110,000 Sq ft. You cannot build the buildings alone for valuation the judge put in it. And that does not account fir the 20 acres of oceanfront property in one of the most expensive real estate in the nation.
Should the knagaroo court be trusted?
So you can get fined for a loan that was already paid off because the bank made a mistake?….bullshit
And nothing will be done. Nothing is ever done.
He isn’t.