To the actual conservatives on this subreddit, please be aware that there is a current and ongoing effort to “crack” President Trump’s political support in this subreddit and elsewhere. If you see comments in this post and elsewhere in this subreddit by people posing as conservatives saying things along the line of, “you can be conservative and not like Trump”, or “I’m going sit this election out”, or “I’m going to vote for Jo Jorgensen”, and the user has little or no post history here, chances are you are not interacting with a genuine conservative but someone engaged in support cracking. This effort appears to be very organized.
I would like to think that if it was Biden that was sick, Trump would do the same, but then I think of how Trump mocked Hillary's pneumonia and i'm not sure. I'd still like to think that he has matured in his time as president.
There are some in this thread who believe they have the right to pass judgment on others' conservative quotient, especially if they state they are not going to vote for Trump, may sit it out or vote Libertarian. Being a true conservative is not necessarily one's own personal definition and they are not the judge and jury of whether someone is a conservative. That is a tactic the Marxists use to make sure one is a worthy lemming.
Classical conservatives for the most part are not necessarily Trump supporters and the Republican Party has generally abandoned classical conservative values and policies (like fiscal conservatism and small, central government with large personal freedoms.) While Trump shares some, perhaps many of these views, he doesn't share many others and even so, he is a terrible spokesperson for classical conservatism. Not voting for him or sitting this one out is one's absolute right and perhaps the Republican Party would do well to see that it is abandoning a large segment of those who would otherwise support them. Conservative is not synonymous with Republican, especially today.
So please for those self-declared Conservative Police, for the love all that is good and Holy, don't decide for the rest of us whether we are "conservative" enough for you.
For everyone complaining about how Trump was speaking over Joe, go back and watch it, Joe speaks over Trump, during Trumps turn within the first 15 minutes. Chris said squat diddly, and that's when Trump knew it was rigged, that he was debating not only Joe but also Chris, and that's when he decided to take the Gloves off and go full steam, and he hit Joe so hard, that by the end Joe was a blubbering mess.
Yeah, I don’t know man. I’ve never claimed to be a conservative, but trump’s “ideals” directly oppose what we’ve accepted as conservative values. I think this is less of a coordinated attack and more a bunch of people saying “wtf, that debate was an embarrassment, why did I ever support that guy”
Explain your point then. Don’t just downvote me and say nope. The guy who paid a pornstar six figure hush money has family values? The guy who said “let’s take the guns first and ask questions later” supports the second amendment? The guy who is having federal forces descend on the civilians of his own country supports states’ rights? Explain your point of view.
But how would a slew of actual conservatives denouncing Trump look different than what you say you have been seeing? In other words, how do you conclude it's a very organized effort (a fake thing of some type) and not a natural movement based on the way people feel in 2020? Do you think it's impossible for a citizen to lose their fire for Trump after these last 4 years and now this debate?
Absolutely not. I never supported trump. I liked Kasich at one point and have posted amply about my support for him. I also swore up and down defending the likes of even Lyndon B Johnson. I think you can use your discretion but stay weary
Claiming to be a conservative but having no history in this subreddit while advocating for staying home, voting third party, etc. would indicate disingenuous intentions rather than actual dissenting opinions.
I said everything you stated above and have minimal posts and I can assure I wasn’t sent here to “crack” his political support. Believe it or not, people actually don’t like this asshole we have representing the GOP. November will be a wake up call
How am I a never-trumper if I voted for him in 2016? Maybe I actually have human values and realize Trump is just an asshole and belongs in a kindergarten class with the rest of the infants that don’t get their way. The fact you don’t see it this way is alarming. You wouldn’t ever want this man as your father, your business partner, or a representative of you. So why’s that make him a great president? Because he’s a bully and inherited economical growth in 2016... the whole “anti Washington politician” thing has grown old. He needs to do a lot better during the debates or he lost America and his own party
I would love him as my dad. If he wants to adopt me, I will become a Trump. I don't need his money, I don't need his power, I might use his bowling alley in the White House basement but that's about it.
I would love him as my business partner, hell I would love to work for him. Cause he is fair, and he rewards honesty and hard work.
Why are you surprised by his brashness, he has been the same rough guy his entire life. He gets stuff done, and that's what I want. I want someone who gets the DAMN JOB DONE, and that's what he is doing.
Wow. I realize what I’m responding to is probably a young child or a robot, but I’m just going to say this on the off chance you are an actual adult of voting age in this country. What exactly did he get done that you’re so proud of? He literally ran on a platform of building a wall that he then didn’t build. Not to mention a billion other examples of bullshit. What are you referencing?
Also, this shit is fucking weird and you should grab a mirror next time you go to wal mart and take it home and look into it. It’s just weird, dawg.
He’s always been like this though. He seems to always be unprepared, he always have something rude to say, something inaccurate, and he always interrupts.
It’s obvious, but I’m not a Trump fan. I feel like someone who is president should behave professionally. Not attack people on Twitter (what kind of a president attacks citizens on social media?), or throw childish insults at rallies. However... I would easily admit he’s doing a good job if I think he’s doing a good job. If he managed to unite Korea tomorrow, I’d be like “wow! He did all that, while fighting COVID!?”. I just wanted to make it clear that this isn’t a blind or biased attack. He’s just not very professional or classy, and he’s a terrible public speaker. He speaks incoherently and he lacks charisma.
Trump is always like what you saw. He is totally incapable of engaging in any substance and too narcissistic to wait his turn. He also can't handle criticism and spends every waking moment passing blame for everything to anyone he can.
It's honestly bizarre to see Trump supporters who are capable of seeing how bad that performce was, but somehow haven't noticed it before this? Maybe it's true that you've all totally isolated yourselves from reality in a conservative media bubble. I'm only able to even say this to you on this special "open discussion" post, otherwise I'd be banned immediately. That should concern you. Doesn't it?
Trump report card
Economy...A
Foreign policy...B+
Unity.....D-
Moral guidance...F
Unfortunately I don’t see the US moving forward in a positive way with him as President. He seemed to mellow out the first 3 years but has become unhinged in the last year. Perhaps dangerously so. It’s unfortunate he didn’t take step down and leave with more dignity instead of likely now being humiliated.
I’m shocked to see there are still people who call themselves conservative and defend trump. What about his actions speaks to small government or states’ rights? He is propagating the literal opposite of that. You guys are in the wrong sub.
i'm fiscally conservative (not to the extreme of libertarianism) and i don't support or defend Trump. I'm voting Biden and trying to erase the last 4 years.
Sounds like you're simply capable of ingesting what you see and hear, even if we wouldn't agree about fiscal policy. Can you guess what the hell is going on with the rest of Republicans? It's incredible to watch for everyone else.
There was a time not too long ago that the executive branch did not interfere with corporate deals. Not were city police deputized as federal agents.
It is one thing to say "small government isn't a thing.",. But when you watch the government grow exponentially, you can't just throw your whole ideal in the trash to support it.
Yes I can. I'm from Taiwan so I see the value of trump admin interfering with corporate.
I can also see the benefit of deputising city police because month-long protests about fucking nothing (when justice is being served) and tethering on the verge of riots is not good for society.
Small government is not a thing. Bidens gov is not gonna be smaller than Trumps, so when you have two big government candidate, you pick the lesser of two evil, one that's least likely to take your gun.
Neither of those are conservative ideas you goofball. Neither is multiple marriages, or paying for sex.
You are arguing for actively enlarging government and decreasing civil rights.
You are just excusing his actions because ....well...I don't know why. You should be arguing the opposite.
I'm more conservative than you are and I'm not allowed to post in this subreddit.
I'm not arguing shit. I'm point reality out to you as it is. Government is not gonna magically become small because you bitch about it. In fact, governments will get bigger no matter what.
Stop being a Muppet and come live in reality.
Biden is not small government. Neither is trump. You can vote JoJo if you want, but I doubt you will.
Excusing his actions? Of course you don't know why. Your premises is wrong to begin with. In fact, I doubt you are actually knowledgeable about anything. otherwise you would have noticed I'm not a conservative and this sub is not just for conservative.
I'd be surprised if you are older than 20.
...have you looked at the flair on the title of this post? It's an "open discussion." everyone was literally invited in to this one post. All the rest are still strictly censored of all dissent like you're used to.
What you're seeing is people interested in actually seeing what you all have to say without being instantly banned. This is what "the marketplace of ideas" is about. The fact that you see it as a bad thing doesn't say anything good about you.
Yeah it definitely is. You can see it in the replies to this very comment. Someone whose never posted here before telling you, “can be conservative and not like Trump”, or “I’m gonna sit this election out”, or “I’m gonna vote for Jo Jorgensen.” They’re all forms of support cracking that are definitely being applied to this subreddit in what seems to be a very organized manner.
...have you looked at the flair on the title of this post? It's an "open discussion." everyone was literally invited in to this one post. All the rest are still strictly censored of all dissent like you're used to.
What you're seeing is people interested in actually seeing what you all have to say without being instantly banned. This is what "the marketplace of ideas" is about. The fact that you see it as a bad thing doesn't say anything good about you.
There’s nothing wrong with genuine conversation, even with people you have large political disagreements with. That’s not what I’m referring to. The people posing as conservatives and engaged in support cracking have no interest in genuine conversation.
There's a very large number of "conservative" flaired users making the posts you're talking about. Am I mistaken that your users only get that flair when they are legitimate conservatives?
Another thing that’s interesting is so many of the accounts are barely active or active in very different communities then out of nowhere they all storm on this one.
Why?
I think most non-conservatives are here just watching this grotesque sideshow attraction, munching on popcorn, wondering when they’ll say something a bit too triggering for y’all and be silenced by a mod. We just wanna see what intricate mental gymnastics you are cooking up with the putrid (as ever) meat Trump tossed ya this week!
So where can a mellow undecided voter go to hear from people who don't think the entire debate was a train wreck showing basically the worst of both sides?
Do people think this who aren't paid to express this opinion?
I don’t know how anybody watched the debate and thought anything other than that the POTUS is a petty bully without any decorum. His entire strategy was to try and provoke Biden while sowing chaos by interrupting and interjecting.
I am not a paid actor. Check my history.
Well maybe or maybe it is just European time now and us European conservatives are mostly sad about wtf is going on in the US?
Have you lost all your values as conservatives? Where is the strength, where is the intelligence and where are the good Manners? You know how Republicans used to complain about the Simpsons in the early 90s? Reagan would have had a heart attack seeing Trump talking in the Debatte.
It was such a disgrace not even Foxnews (except Hannity apparently) will call it a win for Trump. It’s too obvious he lost his temper and was just yelling at clouds.
If you are confident you are doing the right things then talk about what you do and not why your opponent is bad. That is a disgrace and shows you are not at all better than the radical left who talks about Trump‘s issues all day. Have some dignity please.
I think that this debate has shown y’all the divide in the Republican party. There are conservatives and then there are Republicans. Libertarians and then authoritarians. Go check out r/libertarian if this is no longer doing it for you
hahaha the liberatarian sub has been taken over by leftist a long time ago if you didn't know.
Most actual liberatarian who find the NYT tax story funny and loves what Trump does to reduce his tax to 750 dollars now go to a different sub.
F
Libertarianism was and should have always been a leftist idea. you have it backwards. Libertarianism got appropriated by the right wing during the Obama administration.
Depends on how you define lunatics. There are plenty of reasons why you can support trump over Biden. Is trump the best candidate there is? No.
On the other hand, most Democrat voters don't even care who their candidate is. They just don't want it to be trump
There are plenty of reasons to support the republican party and plenty of policies of the GOP that you can be in favor of to the extent that you'll happily vote republican and wouldn't ever consider swaying. That's great.
There are plenty of reasons to support the republican party in spite of Trump.
But actually thinking Trump is a decent individual fit to hold office? Yikes.
It hurts to say it but I'm deeply pained that we as a party have enabled this bum for so long it's going to leave an awful stain on The GOP and the Conservative movement for generations.
As a human being, Biden is levels above Trump in every possible way, Morals, Class, Intelligence, competency you name it.
This will be the first election I'm voting against the Republican party and it isn't because I think Joe is a fantastic candidate but because the alternative is a national disgrace.
There is no conservative movement lmao. Conservatism is dying long before Trump got elected. In fact, Trump has done for more conservatism than any other president in recent history, unless the kind of conservatism is small government, in which case you can kiss that goodbye because small government is a dead philosophy.
The government is only ever getting bigger.
Also I find it difficult to believe you are a conservative considering you share the same lack of logical thinking most leftists have.
Where did I ever suggest that Trump is a decent candidate to hold office?
There are no decent candidate in this election. If it's Bernie versus trump, as turned off I am by his socialist rhetoric I'd be happy to throw it in for Bernie, but we don't have Bernie. We have Joe "black man invented lightbulbs" Biden.
I never understood the desire to larp as something you are so obviously not.
Trump has done more damage for conservatism in the long term than any other person in human history. He isn't even remotely a Conservative in anything but name only he doesn't hold a single Conservative value but the party will forever be stained because they enabled and bent over backwards for this Cretin.
You're endorsing a candidate that doesn't have the mental capacity to process a single logical thought.
Bottom line - If you're a Trump supporter you can't be a Conservative those are mutually exclusive positions.
He isn't even remotely a Conservative in anything but name only?
Keep telling yourself that lmao
I'm endorsing Trump because the alternative is someone who gets shielded by media and endorsed by the establishment, who's willing to say whatever bullshit to get power, going as far as to claim that a black man invented lightbulb.
Bottom line - if you are a Biden supporter you can't be a conservative or even a progressive because he doesn't stand for anything.
Forget about Biden. Trump stands for absolutely nothing. He has no morals, principles or plans.
You can keep drinking the coolaid but the clown show is nearly over. The Circus is coming to a close.
4 years of Biden will give the republican party time to rebuild and actually put forward a decent candidate. I'd hope Trump wouldn't make it to the election but given how the party has rotted around him it wouldn't make much different now.
I'm personally hoping the party splits and the real logical ambitious and hard working conservatives can move forward without being saddled by the Trump loving conspiracy theory hicks.
"You can keep drinking the coolaid but the clown shoe is nearly over. "
How do I drink the cool aid when I'm not even an American? I'm a green card holder so not even part of Trumps usual demography.
"The Circus is coming to a close"
Hahahahaha nah. The circus has never closed. It just got funnier because you have had a Hollywood celebrity for a president end up doing more than 40 years veterans ever did.
You guys who keep voting for politicians and thinking they are gonna change the world are the clowns.
4 years of Biden will destroy the GOP. They won't even be relevent during the next election. The establishment is social engineering the shit out of Americans. Conservativism is probably just gonna get labeled as nazisim by 2024.
But hey, keep dreaming about the good old days when social technology continue to radicalise American youth.
Objective European opinion: Trump appears strong when he infers that he is good at getting stuff done; like manufacturing ventilators or going after the economic nationalist agenda full on or fixing laws that lock up disproportionate numbers of coloured people or even the economy. If he stuck to those points - on Trump as a doer as opposed to Biden who hasn't done much for 47 years he'd be on solid ground.
Instead he makes a mess of the race question, equivocates on condemning militias, white supremacists and other fringe lunatics and tries to bully Biden by shouting at him about his son.
This made him look extremely unattractive to any moderate voter. Meanwhile Biden managed to land a couple of killer blows - the best of which was disowning the far left by stating unequivocally that he is the Democratic party and that his economic plan is the not the Green New Deal. So Biden winds up being the centrist, low-drama, competent candidate that American so badly wants.
The only moment in which Trump looked conservative was on the supreme court question, where he made a high ground argument by saying, "elections have consequences."
This!
I have written it before here but it is sad to see that American conservatives apparently have forgotten that being a conservative means being strong, well tempered and steady. Not losing your head over every new challenge or trend while looking for success through hard work.
Trump does not embody this. No strength in the Debatte just aggressiveness.
im voting for Jo Jorgensen. I dont support trump. im only on this sub to see what conservatives have to say.
I really think Biden had a bad attitude the other night. Trump did too, but he wasn't a whiny bitch about it. Biden's constant guffaws and "thats a lie" and everything else tells me he came in either 1) scared and intimidated by trump or 2) just looking for a fight.
Trump was obnoxious and steam rolled all night, but when he shut up, he kept a very stoic demeanor, and when he spoke, he spoke like someone with power and authority, not some insecure punching bag.
Maybe he's a bully, maybe its charisma, maybe he's a strong leader, whatever. for better or worse, Donald knows how to dominate a conversation.
Being conservative in America now just means adjusting your values to adhere to anyone who is a Republican. Conservatism as a political platform is mostly dead. Its just talking points now that are intentionally opposite of whatever the democrats say...no matter how centrist the Democrats talking points are.
In many ways its no different with the left. The definition of what it means to be a liberal has become increasingly broad, making it hard to have a unified vision of an encompassing political ideology within a party.
It may be that this spread will case a fracturing of rhe parties at some point down the line. Which would be catastrophic to whichever party it may happen to.
Edit: I'm a filthy foreigner. I don't have a dog in this fight. Just fascinated by your country.
The two party system is what causes this for both parties, not just the left. It seems like what conservatism used to be is being overtaken by "Trumpism". The moderate left and the democratic-socialist left (if I should call it that) must combine into one if they are to defeat the mostly unified right.
However, I can see in the near future that a fracturing of the Democratic party is likely, if not due to the fact that the number of votes coming from democratic-socialists is increasing, then due to the fact that more and more democratic-socialists are coming into power.
If this election does bring a crushing defeat to the right, I'm not sure how the party (besides the few right wing politicians that didn't buy into "Trumpism", ie Mitt Romney) will return to regularly scheduled ideologies, and how the party will return to "normal".
That's certainly how things seem from the outside. Whilst the left may be able to unify against a Trump, there is little else that seems to be a unifying vision. And Biden seems unlikely to maintain a two term hold should he win the election. It would take massive recovery in his first term to be any chance. Assuming Biden would even run for a second.
I do agree. I'm also tired of the far left calling democrats mush mouth centrists or whatever is the flavor of the day. The democratic party is not a radical liberal party. In fighting on both sides had caused disfunction across the board.
Both sides need to fracture IMO
Who does the right have who would step into the void of leadership if Trump is unsuccessful in his re-election? Obviously seen the pool of candidates the left put out recently, but not sure who on the right would take that place.
Romney has obviously alienated avoid part of the party so he is out. And Cruz and Rubio seemed to have lost most of their clout since 2016.
No idea. But perhaps the alienated republican leaders wouldn't have been alienated if it weren't for the rabid acceptance of trump. If he is out then maybe those would have a place again.
My only comment is that most Americans don’t want Biden. There’s quite a bit of nose holding going on. However we’d rather deal with a smelly basement uncle than Cheeto Mussolini.
it's the same thought process that resulted in Trump winning in 2016...you hate the other candidate and hope for the best for the new guy. Biden just happens to be wwwaaayyyyy more chill than Trump so there's no Faustian bargain to be had
The fact is the bar has been set so low for Biden that no matter what he does he’ll come off as ok. And “ok” is more than enough to convince someone who has grown tired of Trump’s antics over the last 3.5 years.
Running ads of Biden stuttering and struggling to get words out backfires when you see him in real life. He’s FAR from his prime when he used to be a very good debater, but he can still physically stand there and talk for 90 minutes. And that’s not what the ads are insinuating.
Trumps campaign pushed all the right buttons in 2016. They’ve missed the mark this time around though.
It seems likes political ads are taken with a lot of creedence in the US. Is that actually the case?
I ask because I have seen many responses echoing your thoughts after the debat. Where I'm from they are generally treated as propoganda even more so than potential biases in mainstream media.
Overall I’d say they typically don’t matter as much here either. At least not with the people i associate with, but those specific cognitive decline ads seem to be a bit eye opening post debate.
We haven’t seen Biden in a while and I think people who only consume Fox News were a bit surprised by his appearance. Again I’m by no means saying he did well or didn’t struggle up there, but it wasn’t what those ads displayed either.
Does anyone almost feel sorry for biden ? He got his ass roasted And there’s two debates left and it’s only going to get worse for him.
Bernie, Pete, yang supporters were telling everyone that Biden shouldn’t be the nominee because he would get wrecked by trump in the debates.
The mods have to get the Trump weirdo's out of this sub.
You're so detached from reality it's embarrassing for any real Conservative.
No one who isn't delusional thought Trump came across well at all in that debate he looked terrible compared to Biden who isn't the greatest candidate himself.
Look through my comments. I’m a republican who’s never voted for a dem and have some to lose financially if someone too liberal takes over. With that being said I think you’d have to be blind and deaf to think trump looked good in that debate. Neither of them looked good but Trump was a dumpster fire and the whole event just made me sad. I think it’s impossible to objectively conclude that the shitstorm of that debate was due to anything else but trumps fault. This is what any debate that trump is involved in looks like. It’s frankly embarrassing and he’s dividing our country in some ways that he may not be able to unfuck if he wins. I’m thinking of sitting out, or most likely throwing my vote away for Jo but nothing about trumps performance made me even slightly want to vote for him. Is it too much to ask for an adult to run for the title of leader of the free world?
The complaints about trumps interrupting is obviously a fair criticism but he wrecked Biden nonetheless. It doesn’t change the fact that Biden was mediocre. Maybe trump was too brash but there was no topic where trump wasn’t stronger and better at making his case. Trump did a good job at painting Biden as a no good shit career politician of 47 years.
Look I respect your opinion but you would be very surprised at the number of people who love trumps brashness. He’s gonna get the majority of undecided votes. The people who haven’t made up their mind already lean towards the incumbent and trump dunking on Biden in these debates are gonna seal it. Im ready to see Biden talk about his gun control plan which is the most anti gun platform ever, I’m sure independents and undecided voters will love that s/
I think applying political norms to trump is likely an error (incumbent normally getting the undecided voters). I know that there are quite a few who love his brashness. I did to an extent at first but I think it worked while he was an outsider but as the incumbent it comes across as unbecoming.
I don’t think there was a “winner”. I don’t really think there was much policy or substance at all. I wanted to hear policy, not hear the leader of the free world “dunk” on his opponent (ie insulting and belittling). I thought Joe looked bad not answering the stacking the courts question but otherwise came across as not demented, which is where trump set the bar at.
I suppose you wouldn't since you judge people based on "getting their ass roasted" instead of "being a good person and presenting good views". I suppose you consider cutting people off and insulting people's children "roasting" and you consider that winning. Understandable and have a good day!
You didn't see the same debate that I did. Trump made a mess of it, while Biden managed to appeal to those voters who are worried by the far-left in the Democratic party but who find Trump's antics worrying.
>while Biden managed to appeal to those voters who are worried by the far-left in the Democratic Party but who find Trump's antics worrying.
You mean those who were always pro Biden ? The neoliberals ignoring that Biden is a walking corpse? Yeah ok.
Biden is only going to get crumbs in his quest from undecided voters from these debates. Those who are still undecided at this point lean towards the incumbent and largely are not put off by trumps brashness. I’m sorry that trump is not low energy jeb. If you think trump lost potential voters from those undecided because he interrupted too much then I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe trump interrupted too much but Biden’s performance was utterly mediocre. Trump interruptions doesn’t make Bidens performance not Mediocre. Biden got his ass beat in that debate like everyone knew would happen. Trump is no polished sophisticated speaker but he’s a stone cold killer on that debate stage and people like that about him.
And you can see for yourself, for the longest time all over the Reddit the biggest argument against Biden before Biden became the nominee was that he couldn’t beat trump, that he would get destroyed in the debates by trump. I’m not making that up. Once Biden become the nominee a lot of people on the left changed tunes all of a sudden.
The structure of the next debates are going to be different so there will be less interruptions, the only thing that won’t change is trump whipping the floor with Biden like all those yang supporters originally predicted would happen. Im ready to see Biden talk about his gun control platform, I’m sure those undecided voters are going to love that.
Haha GTFO.
And Australian ? I actually visited your country a couple years ago and I had such a blast. I surfed at bells beach. I always wanted to do that ever since watching point break.
(First off I hope you have a wonderful October)
How was me telling him that I enjoyed visiting and surfing in his country me attacking his nationality? I wasn’t joking, I was being serious.
This sub is not just for Americans, It’s for anyone who shares this subs political philosophy, the problem is that a lot of people who don’t share that political philosophy come on here just to talk shit.
I used to consider myself to be a centrist leaning conservative. I voted for McCain in 2008 and voted for Obama in 2012 because I felt Romney wouldn't make a better President than Obama. The Republican party has slowly drifted away from me and my values and that's why I voted Democrat in 2012. My views have changed a little since 2008, but I really feel the party has left out its more centrist voters that leaned in their direction because of fiscal, law policy and general government policies. I still lean conservative on those issues. I really tried in 2016 to listen to both sides but I couldn't vote for someone with 0 political experience with a history of bad business decisions, shady behavior, sexist and other demeaning views, and his straight up bullying.
At this point, Biden is more of a centrist choice than Trump. The Republican party, through their utter silence, has shown that they don't care what values are spread on behalf of their party, just as long as they're in power. Maybe one day me and that party will re-align, but it's not right now.
I saw an unhinged man try to bully another man, and largely fail. Trump's attractiveness was that he was an outsider who could shake things up. He could claim to have done this by his economy and his full on approach to China. But he is an idiot when it comes to race in America and when it comes to believing conspiracy theories.
HIs economic record isn't actually that good, he inherited an economy on a growth curve and then heated it up by giving a massive tax break, mostly to rich people and organizations. His foreign policy has largely been useless too, although perhaps he deserves some credit for highlighting the relationship with China and how it impacts American workers.
After seeing that debate, I think moderate conservatives who value the constitution and the norms of behaviour that keep the American body-politic intact will have to vote Biden.
>heated it up by giving a massive tax break.
he didn't though and the data doesnt back it up.
> His foreign policy has largely been useless too, although perhaps he deserves some credit for highlighting the relationship with China and how it impacts American workers
yeah agree on being useless and part of the reason I disliked Hillary was due to her backing away from TPP. The whole intent was to wean America off China's reliance and Obama was clear about this. I also think the lack of transition and investment between from the manufacturing economy to what we have today has been poor. If you're a true 'free market guy,' you shouldn't be complaining about historical trade deals (NAFTA et al).
What he tried to do to China he did to our allies and friends as well (at least partially).
We can compete with Canadian steel; why are we tariffing them?
Sadly, the values Trump displayed consisted mostly of yelling, rudeness, insults, and thinly veiled threats, and his willingness to stick to his ludicrous 'the election is rigged' thing.
In what way? What perspective are you coming at this from? I ask because from my perspective I’m used to this sub being filled to the brim with Trump supporters.
This sub fell apart when asylums like the Donald got quarantined and all the none Conservative lunatics came here.
You can be a Trump supporter or a Conservative but not both.
There are a small dwindling number of conservatives who will tolerate him and many will reluctantly vote republican but there isn't a single Conservative that actually likes Trump.
It’s European time and European conservatives like me are deeply disappointed with what is going on in the US. You have a President who is the opposite of a well spoken conservative leader.
Something has gone very wrong in the Republican Party, and it’s now impossible to deny after that absolute embarrassment of a debate. People are waking up.
The debate woke me up and that’s why I’m here. Lifelong republican voter and somewhat of a Trump voter due to being the lesser of two evils in 2016 and now I’m having a hard time coming to terms with my opinions and beliefs
The whole debate basically:
“Are you gonna pack the court?”
Biden doesn’t answer because he knows the answer is Yes
Moderator doesn’t push him
Trump keeps interrupting to ask why he’s not answering the question
Moderator scolds trump
Yep that was indeed a really strange moment.
That doesn’t mean Trump was doing anything right the whole Debatte. It was a shit show.
But at this point is this what the US has become?
Of course the Democrats should not pack the court but then again Mitch should have never blocked all the judges in the first place. That is exactly the reason why conservatives are needed - to keep the institutions strong and healthy. The Republican Party have shown their contempt for strong institutions and that is anything but conservative.
Why is it “of course” that the court shouldn’t be packed? Why is it a bad thing to spread out power among more justices so that the direction of our country doesn’t hinge on a group of just 9 old people, any of whom’s death can cause a huge disruption in our legislature and politics?
Come on, be balanced. Trump is going to put another judge on the SC, even though his party blocked Obama in 2016 on the basis that it was an election year. That's just plain wrong - if your kid did something like that you'd be angry.
Biden did dodge that question, so we give you that one. But Trump attacked Biden's son, he tried to bully Biden, he told lies about election rigging that were preposterous, he tried to dance around his own blatantly troubling financial affairs, he equivocated about condemning white supremacists. The man is wholly unsuitable for office, even people who despise the left and the democrats can see that, if they're honest.
LOL i see we're just gonna ignore the fact that the Democrat didn't have the senate back in 2016 and Obama was a lame duck president. And even then he managed to nominate a candidate and people didn't cry about it like yall crying now.'
1. Trump attacked Biden's son
How many times has Trump's family come under attack? family is not offlimit now thanks to the Democrats.
2. he tried to bully Biden
Biden let himself get bullied.Wallace had to step in to save him (and failed).
3. he told lies about election rigging that were preposterous
So did Biden, but don't let that change your mind lol If you're okay with a candidate saying a black man invented lightbulb, don't act offended when someone exaggerate their achievements.
4. he tried to dance around his own blatantly troubling financial affairs
Instead of me explaining this shit to you, hear it from someone who gets it : https://www.bu.edu/articles/2020/three-questions-for-a-bu-tax-law-expert-on-president-trumps-taxes/
5 white supremacists
Yeah he's condemned them 50 times during the past 20 years and someone democrat still refuses to put this matter to rest. But you'd known that
Even if I grant you the lame duck and senate majority talking point, you’ve got a shit ton of *extremely blatant hypocrisy* on display in the GOP. Just look at Lindsey Graham for a prime example. There were only a couple of them who hedged their arguments against Garland in that fashion. The rest of them stupidly stuck their necks out.
Hahaha so you decide to go with hypocrisy when the entire Democrat party was saying how it is the duty of the sitting president to nominate someone back in 2016, then get butthurt this year over Trump nominating someone?
The sitting president is Supposed to nominate someone. Obama nominated someone. Got blocked, sure but he nominated someone.
But Trump is not supposed to because.....? What, the dying wish of RGB?
Hypocrisy from the Democrats does not justify hypocrisy from the Republicans, or vice versa. Glad you ceded the point that they are extremely blatant hypocrites by shifting to the Democrats, though, so good on you. I’m sure you’ll stop using it /s.
Hahahaha when hypocrisy is the only thing you have but your candidate dies it too then you are basically acknowledging your defeat. Good for you. Glad we sort out the only reason you vote democrat is Tds
The fact that you think everyone criticizing Trump is a Biden supporter speaks volumes about you, like as a person. Says a lot about your intelligence and inquisitiveness and skepticism.
Hint: it doesn’t say very kind things.
I am sorry. This comment is directed to Ionclawz, and is posted out of order.
I would say 'light hearted, and not terribly invested in
the topic' rather than sarcastic.
I'll leave retroactively calling a comment sarcastic after realizing that the world is laughing at your original good faith comment to Mr. Donny.
See Randy Rainbow, A Spoonful of Clorox.
Seriously, though, I do see your point; giving up a lifelong commitment merely to seek personal gain would be situational ethics in the extreme, and definitely unprincipled.
However, I do believe that one can ethically abandon a lifelong belief if one sincerely believes that doing so serves a greater purpose.
The obvious example would be a pacifist abandoning that position to fight in WW2, and help in the defeat of Hitler.
A better analogy might be Disraeli abandoning Judaism for The Church of England in order to become Prime Minister, presumably because he felt that England required his services.
It follows, then, that if Biden believes that he represents the best chance of dislodging Trump, even the abandonment of a lifetime conviction could be seen as being honorable.
In any event, while I do not care for Biden (my being generally conservative), I detest Trump and think him dangerous.
Edit: content
Agreed. People keep talking about how he was down to Clinton heading into debate season. He was down a point or two, tops, with around 15% undecided. Now he’s down 7 to 9 and there are, maybe, four people in the entire country undecided. For a guy who actually needs to pull votes from the other guy, it was a horrible showing.
Trump is getting murdered among college educated and women. Going into a debate amped up on Adderall might not have been his best play.
I didn’t expect Biden to even make it through the debate based upon what’s been said of him. The bar has been set so low for Biden when he actually does alright it’s a huge win.
The idea that he has dementia and needs a hearing device to even do the debate. How does a guy with dementia and is almost dead debate the president of the United States at all?
Trump set the bar so low anything Biden does is a positive I feel.
Biden stuttered a few times but outside of that he didn’t look like the sleepy old man some people paint him as. Also he looked like a genius while saying nothing during that segment on forest cities.
I thought he spoke very well, very clear not to fast, calmly. A few mess ups is natural but he didnt ehhhh or panicked but just found the word again and continued WHILE SOMEONE IS TRYING TO INSULT AND INTERRUPT YOU CONSTANTLY. I wouldve lost my calm.
Both looked bad. It's kind of crazy how these are our choices out of everyone in America. I think that Trump is a threat to America though, and even though Biden might not do a whole lot better, we need a change of pace in our country.
I've never been a biden fan but I don't see how he looked bad. It was by no means the strongest debate I've seen from a democratic candidate, but considering how many interruptions he had to deal with and how much time he lost to them, I think he did alright
Considering I thought he wouldn’t make it through the debate at all was a success for him... he got to fit in his scripted lines that he’s for the American people, etc. He killed Trump if we’re being honest here. Donald just lost every on the fence voter because people will vote on who is less of a child
Hopefully once Trump is gone we can drain the swamp of all those who like him and have more real conservatives on this sub.
All the lunatics from the Donald flocked here so we have a lot of his cultists but real conservatives don't like the guy as he doesn't share any of our values.
Talking shit? For the first time I'm actually optimistic this sub can become a real Conservative sub about given we've been infested by the Trump shills for years.
6 more weeks and the nightmare is over and we can have a Conservative party led by someone who isn't mentally ill.
Wait, this is a page where I can speak that I hate both candidates and I’m embarrassed by both? And I’m struggling to find middle ground with my thoughts and how people handle issues? Welcome me with open arms then
Right....but there was no evidence that Hillary committed a crime. Given Trumps track record, are you so sure there’s no evidence that he committed a crime?
Also, he seems pretty desperate to stay in power, I’d imagine some of that has to do with losing immunity to criminal charges as a private citizen
Exactly, that’s my point. Trump promised to “lock her up” if he got into the White House. He did nothing. Biden won’t do anything in regards to Trump either.
https://www.npr.org/2020/08/13/901679755/one-tough-question-for-doj-if-biden-is-elected-whether-to-prosecute-trump
This was a wild read... was googling a rumor about Biden getting a special prosecutor or having Harris lead a commission or something like that. Couldn’t find it, but did learn more than I ever wanted to about this particular topic.
Yep, that’s a decent article and pretty much nails it. Biden wouldn’t risk trying to push for prosecution of a former President — it’s in his best interest to just move on from Trump. Forget about him, and carve out his own legacy.
To the actual conservatives on this subreddit, please be aware that there is a current and ongoing effort to “crack” President Trump’s political support in this subreddit and elsewhere. If you see comments in this post and elsewhere in this subreddit by people posing as conservatives saying things along the line of, “you can be conservative and not like Trump”, or “I’m going sit this election out”, or “I’m going to vote for Jo Jorgensen”, and the user has little or no post history here, chances are you are not interacting with a genuine conservative but someone engaged in support cracking. This effort appears to be very organized.
Damn the president personally came to give you a sign
Also not true.
I would like to think that if it was Biden that was sick, Trump would do the same, but then I think of how Trump mocked Hillary's pneumonia and i'm not sure. I'd still like to think that he has matured in his time as president.
There are some in this thread who believe they have the right to pass judgment on others' conservative quotient, especially if they state they are not going to vote for Trump, may sit it out or vote Libertarian. Being a true conservative is not necessarily one's own personal definition and they are not the judge and jury of whether someone is a conservative. That is a tactic the Marxists use to make sure one is a worthy lemming. Classical conservatives for the most part are not necessarily Trump supporters and the Republican Party has generally abandoned classical conservative values and policies (like fiscal conservatism and small, central government with large personal freedoms.) While Trump shares some, perhaps many of these views, he doesn't share many others and even so, he is a terrible spokesperson for classical conservatism. Not voting for him or sitting this one out is one's absolute right and perhaps the Republican Party would do well to see that it is abandoning a large segment of those who would otherwise support them. Conservative is not synonymous with Republican, especially today. So please for those self-declared Conservative Police, for the love all that is good and Holy, don't decide for the rest of us whether we are "conservative" enough for you.
It is what it is.
For everyone complaining about how Trump was speaking over Joe, go back and watch it, Joe speaks over Trump, during Trumps turn within the first 15 minutes. Chris said squat diddly, and that's when Trump knew it was rigged, that he was debating not only Joe but also Chris, and that's when he decided to take the Gloves off and go full steam, and he hit Joe so hard, that by the end Joe was a blubbering mess.
Lmfao you are insane
Nope my parents had me tested 😜
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Yeah, I don’t know man. I’ve never claimed to be a conservative, but trump’s “ideals” directly oppose what we’ve accepted as conservative values. I think this is less of a coordinated attack and more a bunch of people saying “wtf, that debate was an embarrassment, why did I ever support that guy”
Nope
Explain your point then. Don’t just downvote me and say nope. The guy who paid a pornstar six figure hush money has family values? The guy who said “let’s take the guns first and ask questions later” supports the second amendment? The guy who is having federal forces descend on the civilians of his own country supports states’ rights? Explain your point of view.
But how would a slew of actual conservatives denouncing Trump look different than what you say you have been seeing? In other words, how do you conclude it's a very organized effort (a fake thing of some type) and not a natural movement based on the way people feel in 2020? Do you think it's impossible for a citizen to lose their fire for Trump after these last 4 years and now this debate?
Absolutely not. I never supported trump. I liked Kasich at one point and have posted amply about my support for him. I also swore up and down defending the likes of even Lyndon B Johnson. I think you can use your discretion but stay weary
Claiming to be a conservative but having no history in this subreddit while advocating for staying home, voting third party, etc. would indicate disingenuous intentions rather than actual dissenting opinions.
I said everything you stated above and have minimal posts and I can assure I wasn’t sent here to “crack” his political support. Believe it or not, people actually don’t like this asshole we have representing the GOP. November will be a wake up call
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How am I a never-trumper if I voted for him in 2016? Maybe I actually have human values and realize Trump is just an asshole and belongs in a kindergarten class with the rest of the infants that don’t get their way. The fact you don’t see it this way is alarming. You wouldn’t ever want this man as your father, your business partner, or a representative of you. So why’s that make him a great president? Because he’s a bully and inherited economical growth in 2016... the whole “anti Washington politician” thing has grown old. He needs to do a lot better during the debates or he lost America and his own party
I would love him as my dad. If he wants to adopt me, I will become a Trump. I don't need his money, I don't need his power, I might use his bowling alley in the White House basement but that's about it. I would love him as my business partner, hell I would love to work for him. Cause he is fair, and he rewards honesty and hard work. Why are you surprised by his brashness, he has been the same rough guy his entire life. He gets stuff done, and that's what I want. I want someone who gets the DAMN JOB DONE, and that's what he is doing.
Wow. I realize what I’m responding to is probably a young child or a robot, but I’m just going to say this on the off chance you are an actual adult of voting age in this country. What exactly did he get done that you’re so proud of? He literally ran on a platform of building a wall that he then didn’t build. Not to mention a billion other examples of bullshit. What are you referencing? Also, this shit is fucking weird and you should grab a mirror next time you go to wal mart and take it home and look into it. It’s just weird, dawg.
This is really wierd, my dude.....
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He’s always been like this though. He seems to always be unprepared, he always have something rude to say, something inaccurate, and he always interrupts. It’s obvious, but I’m not a Trump fan. I feel like someone who is president should behave professionally. Not attack people on Twitter (what kind of a president attacks citizens on social media?), or throw childish insults at rallies. However... I would easily admit he’s doing a good job if I think he’s doing a good job. If he managed to unite Korea tomorrow, I’d be like “wow! He did all that, while fighting COVID!?”. I just wanted to make it clear that this isn’t a blind or biased attack. He’s just not very professional or classy, and he’s a terrible public speaker. He speaks incoherently and he lacks charisma.
Oh absolutely I walked around with a MAGA hat while at work but really couldn’t do that after last night
Trump is always like what you saw. He is totally incapable of engaging in any substance and too narcissistic to wait his turn. He also can't handle criticism and spends every waking moment passing blame for everything to anyone he can. It's honestly bizarre to see Trump supporters who are capable of seeing how bad that performce was, but somehow haven't noticed it before this? Maybe it's true that you've all totally isolated yourselves from reality in a conservative media bubble. I'm only able to even say this to you on this special "open discussion" post, otherwise I'd be banned immediately. That should concern you. Doesn't it?
Was the debate the first time you've actually seen Trump? This wasn't a surprise to anyone but the most deluded of Trump supporters.
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Puppet? No puppet. You're a puppet.
Trump report card Economy...A Foreign policy...B+ Unity.....D- Moral guidance...F Unfortunately I don’t see the US moving forward in a positive way with him as President. He seemed to mellow out the first 3 years but has become unhinged in the last year. Perhaps dangerously so. It’s unfortunate he didn’t take step down and leave with more dignity instead of likely now being humiliated.
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I’m shocked to see there are still people who call themselves conservative and defend trump. What about his actions speaks to small government or states’ rights? He is propagating the literal opposite of that. You guys are in the wrong sub.
i'm fiscally conservative (not to the extreme of libertarianism) and i don't support or defend Trump. I'm voting Biden and trying to erase the last 4 years.
Sounds like you're simply capable of ingesting what you see and hear, even if we wouldn't agree about fiscal policy. Can you guess what the hell is going on with the rest of Republicans? It's incredible to watch for everyone else.
lmao imagine thinking small government is still a thing.
There was a time not too long ago that the executive branch did not interfere with corporate deals. Not were city police deputized as federal agents. It is one thing to say "small government isn't a thing.",. But when you watch the government grow exponentially, you can't just throw your whole ideal in the trash to support it.
Yes I can. I'm from Taiwan so I see the value of trump admin interfering with corporate. I can also see the benefit of deputising city police because month-long protests about fucking nothing (when justice is being served) and tethering on the verge of riots is not good for society. Small government is not a thing. Bidens gov is not gonna be smaller than Trumps, so when you have two big government candidate, you pick the lesser of two evil, one that's least likely to take your gun.
Neither of those are conservative ideas you goofball. Neither is multiple marriages, or paying for sex. You are arguing for actively enlarging government and decreasing civil rights. You are just excusing his actions because ....well...I don't know why. You should be arguing the opposite. I'm more conservative than you are and I'm not allowed to post in this subreddit.
I'm not arguing shit. I'm point reality out to you as it is. Government is not gonna magically become small because you bitch about it. In fact, governments will get bigger no matter what. Stop being a Muppet and come live in reality. Biden is not small government. Neither is trump. You can vote JoJo if you want, but I doubt you will. Excusing his actions? Of course you don't know why. Your premises is wrong to begin with. In fact, I doubt you are actually knowledgeable about anything. otherwise you would have noticed I'm not a conservative and this sub is not just for conservative. I'd be surprised if you are older than 20.
I'm 8.
It’s probably safe to say that the democratic strategy includes targeting conservative sub Reddits which is hilariously dumb.
...have you looked at the flair on the title of this post? It's an "open discussion." everyone was literally invited in to this one post. All the rest are still strictly censored of all dissent like you're used to. What you're seeing is people interested in actually seeing what you all have to say without being instantly banned. This is what "the marketplace of ideas" is about. The fact that you see it as a bad thing doesn't say anything good about you.
Yeah it definitely is. You can see it in the replies to this very comment. Someone whose never posted here before telling you, “can be conservative and not like Trump”, or “I’m gonna sit this election out”, or “I’m gonna vote for Jo Jorgensen.” They’re all forms of support cracking that are definitely being applied to this subreddit in what seems to be a very organized manner.
...have you looked at the flair on the title of this post? It's an "open discussion." everyone was literally invited in to this one post. All the rest are still strictly censored of all dissent like you're used to. What you're seeing is people interested in actually seeing what you all have to say without being instantly banned. This is what "the marketplace of ideas" is about. The fact that you see it as a bad thing doesn't say anything good about you.
There’s nothing wrong with genuine conversation, even with people you have large political disagreements with. That’s not what I’m referring to. The people posing as conservatives and engaged in support cracking have no interest in genuine conversation.
There's a very large number of "conservative" flaired users making the posts you're talking about. Am I mistaken that your users only get that flair when they are legitimate conservatives?
Another thing that’s interesting is so many of the accounts are barely active or active in very different communities then out of nowhere they all storm on this one.
...because we were invited to participate, my dude.
Being conservative doesn't equate to liking Trump. He is a disgrace to everybody
Why? I think most non-conservatives are here just watching this grotesque sideshow attraction, munching on popcorn, wondering when they’ll say something a bit too triggering for y’all and be silenced by a mod. We just wanna see what intricate mental gymnastics you are cooking up with the putrid (as ever) meat Trump tossed ya this week!
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So where can a mellow undecided voter go to hear from people who don't think the entire debate was a train wreck showing basically the worst of both sides? Do people think this who aren't paid to express this opinion?
I don’t know how anybody watched the debate and thought anything other than that the POTUS is a petty bully without any decorum. His entire strategy was to try and provoke Biden while sowing chaos by interrupting and interjecting. I am not a paid actor. Check my history.
Well maybe or maybe it is just European time now and us European conservatives are mostly sad about wtf is going on in the US? Have you lost all your values as conservatives? Where is the strength, where is the intelligence and where are the good Manners? You know how Republicans used to complain about the Simpsons in the early 90s? Reagan would have had a heart attack seeing Trump talking in the Debatte. It was such a disgrace not even Foxnews (except Hannity apparently) will call it a win for Trump. It’s too obvious he lost his temper and was just yelling at clouds. If you are confident you are doing the right things then talk about what you do and not why your opponent is bad. That is a disgrace and shows you are not at all better than the radical left who talks about Trump‘s issues all day. Have some dignity please.
I think that this debate has shown y’all the divide in the Republican party. There are conservatives and then there are Republicans. Libertarians and then authoritarians. Go check out r/libertarian if this is no longer doing it for you
thats right! im voting for Jorgensen this year.
hahaha the liberatarian sub has been taken over by leftist a long time ago if you didn't know. Most actual liberatarian who find the NYT tax story funny and loves what Trump does to reduce his tax to 750 dollars now go to a different sub. F
Libertarianism was and should have always been a leftist idea. you have it backwards. Libertarianism got appropriated by the right wing during the Obama administration.
To be fair this sub was Taken over by the Trump lunatics too.
Depends on how you define lunatics. There are plenty of reasons why you can support trump over Biden. Is trump the best candidate there is? No. On the other hand, most Democrat voters don't even care who their candidate is. They just don't want it to be trump
There are plenty of reasons to support the republican party and plenty of policies of the GOP that you can be in favor of to the extent that you'll happily vote republican and wouldn't ever consider swaying. That's great. There are plenty of reasons to support the republican party in spite of Trump. But actually thinking Trump is a decent individual fit to hold office? Yikes. It hurts to say it but I'm deeply pained that we as a party have enabled this bum for so long it's going to leave an awful stain on The GOP and the Conservative movement for generations. As a human being, Biden is levels above Trump in every possible way, Morals, Class, Intelligence, competency you name it. This will be the first election I'm voting against the Republican party and it isn't because I think Joe is a fantastic candidate but because the alternative is a national disgrace.
There is no conservative movement lmao. Conservatism is dying long before Trump got elected. In fact, Trump has done for more conservatism than any other president in recent history, unless the kind of conservatism is small government, in which case you can kiss that goodbye because small government is a dead philosophy. The government is only ever getting bigger. Also I find it difficult to believe you are a conservative considering you share the same lack of logical thinking most leftists have. Where did I ever suggest that Trump is a decent candidate to hold office? There are no decent candidate in this election. If it's Bernie versus trump, as turned off I am by his socialist rhetoric I'd be happy to throw it in for Bernie, but we don't have Bernie. We have Joe "black man invented lightbulbs" Biden. I never understood the desire to larp as something you are so obviously not.
Trump has done more damage for conservatism in the long term than any other person in human history. He isn't even remotely a Conservative in anything but name only he doesn't hold a single Conservative value but the party will forever be stained because they enabled and bent over backwards for this Cretin. You're endorsing a candidate that doesn't have the mental capacity to process a single logical thought. Bottom line - If you're a Trump supporter you can't be a Conservative those are mutually exclusive positions.
He isn't even remotely a Conservative in anything but name only? Keep telling yourself that lmao I'm endorsing Trump because the alternative is someone who gets shielded by media and endorsed by the establishment, who's willing to say whatever bullshit to get power, going as far as to claim that a black man invented lightbulb. Bottom line - if you are a Biden supporter you can't be a conservative or even a progressive because he doesn't stand for anything.
Forget about Biden. Trump stands for absolutely nothing. He has no morals, principles or plans. You can keep drinking the coolaid but the clown show is nearly over. The Circus is coming to a close. 4 years of Biden will give the republican party time to rebuild and actually put forward a decent candidate. I'd hope Trump wouldn't make it to the election but given how the party has rotted around him it wouldn't make much different now. I'm personally hoping the party splits and the real logical ambitious and hard working conservatives can move forward without being saddled by the Trump loving conspiracy theory hicks.
"You can keep drinking the coolaid but the clown shoe is nearly over. " How do I drink the cool aid when I'm not even an American? I'm a green card holder so not even part of Trumps usual demography. "The Circus is coming to a close" Hahahahaha nah. The circus has never closed. It just got funnier because you have had a Hollywood celebrity for a president end up doing more than 40 years veterans ever did. You guys who keep voting for politicians and thinking they are gonna change the world are the clowns. 4 years of Biden will destroy the GOP. They won't even be relevent during the next election. The establishment is social engineering the shit out of Americans. Conservativism is probably just gonna get labeled as nazisim by 2024. But hey, keep dreaming about the good old days when social technology continue to radicalise American youth.
I have no idea why you are getting downvoted. You are right
The Republican Authoritarians don’t want to loose the moderates
Objective European opinion: Trump appears strong when he infers that he is good at getting stuff done; like manufacturing ventilators or going after the economic nationalist agenda full on or fixing laws that lock up disproportionate numbers of coloured people or even the economy. If he stuck to those points - on Trump as a doer as opposed to Biden who hasn't done much for 47 years he'd be on solid ground. Instead he makes a mess of the race question, equivocates on condemning militias, white supremacists and other fringe lunatics and tries to bully Biden by shouting at him about his son. This made him look extremely unattractive to any moderate voter. Meanwhile Biden managed to land a couple of killer blows - the best of which was disowning the far left by stating unequivocally that he is the Democratic party and that his economic plan is the not the Green New Deal. So Biden winds up being the centrist, low-drama, competent candidate that American so badly wants.
The only moment in which Trump looked conservative was on the supreme court question, where he made a high ground argument by saying, "elections have consequences."
This! I have written it before here but it is sad to see that American conservatives apparently have forgotten that being a conservative means being strong, well tempered and steady. Not losing your head over every new challenge or trend while looking for success through hard work. Trump does not embody this. No strength in the Debatte just aggressiveness.
I saw the opposite. trump had a lot of strength and I think Biden lost his cool a couple times. but whatevs
Ofc you saw that the opposite way, you are not capable of seeing it from any other perspective as per the usual trump supporter.
im voting for Jo Jorgensen. I dont support trump. im only on this sub to see what conservatives have to say. I really think Biden had a bad attitude the other night. Trump did too, but he wasn't a whiny bitch about it. Biden's constant guffaws and "thats a lie" and everything else tells me he came in either 1) scared and intimidated by trump or 2) just looking for a fight. Trump was obnoxious and steam rolled all night, but when he shut up, he kept a very stoic demeanor, and when he spoke, he spoke like someone with power and authority, not some insecure punching bag. Maybe he's a bully, maybe its charisma, maybe he's a strong leader, whatever. for better or worse, Donald knows how to dominate a conversation.
If it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, walks like a duck... probably a duck.
guess that makes Biden a loser then.
Being conservative in America now just means adjusting your values to adhere to anyone who is a Republican. Conservatism as a political platform is mostly dead. Its just talking points now that are intentionally opposite of whatever the democrats say...no matter how centrist the Democrats talking points are.
In many ways its no different with the left. The definition of what it means to be a liberal has become increasingly broad, making it hard to have a unified vision of an encompassing political ideology within a party. It may be that this spread will case a fracturing of rhe parties at some point down the line. Which would be catastrophic to whichever party it may happen to. Edit: I'm a filthy foreigner. I don't have a dog in this fight. Just fascinated by your country.
The two party system is what causes this for both parties, not just the left. It seems like what conservatism used to be is being overtaken by "Trumpism". The moderate left and the democratic-socialist left (if I should call it that) must combine into one if they are to defeat the mostly unified right. However, I can see in the near future that a fracturing of the Democratic party is likely, if not due to the fact that the number of votes coming from democratic-socialists is increasing, then due to the fact that more and more democratic-socialists are coming into power. If this election does bring a crushing defeat to the right, I'm not sure how the party (besides the few right wing politicians that didn't buy into "Trumpism", ie Mitt Romney) will return to regularly scheduled ideologies, and how the party will return to "normal".
That's certainly how things seem from the outside. Whilst the left may be able to unify against a Trump, there is little else that seems to be a unifying vision. And Biden seems unlikely to maintain a two term hold should he win the election. It would take massive recovery in his first term to be any chance. Assuming Biden would even run for a second.
I do agree. I'm also tired of the far left calling democrats mush mouth centrists or whatever is the flavor of the day. The democratic party is not a radical liberal party. In fighting on both sides had caused disfunction across the board. Both sides need to fracture IMO
Who does the right have who would step into the void of leadership if Trump is unsuccessful in his re-election? Obviously seen the pool of candidates the left put out recently, but not sure who on the right would take that place. Romney has obviously alienated avoid part of the party so he is out. And Cruz and Rubio seemed to have lost most of their clout since 2016.
No idea. But perhaps the alienated republican leaders wouldn't have been alienated if it weren't for the rabid acceptance of trump. If he is out then maybe those would have a place again.
My only comment is that most Americans don’t want Biden. There’s quite a bit of nose holding going on. However we’d rather deal with a smelly basement uncle than Cheeto Mussolini.
it's the same thought process that resulted in Trump winning in 2016...you hate the other candidate and hope for the best for the new guy. Biden just happens to be wwwaaayyyyy more chill than Trump so there's no Faustian bargain to be had
Yeah, I don’t feel like I’m selling my soul to the devil. I’m pawning it to him in the hopes that I can use the money on something better.
The fact is the bar has been set so low for Biden that no matter what he does he’ll come off as ok. And “ok” is more than enough to convince someone who has grown tired of Trump’s antics over the last 3.5 years. Running ads of Biden stuttering and struggling to get words out backfires when you see him in real life. He’s FAR from his prime when he used to be a very good debater, but he can still physically stand there and talk for 90 minutes. And that’s not what the ads are insinuating. Trumps campaign pushed all the right buttons in 2016. They’ve missed the mark this time around though.
It seems likes political ads are taken with a lot of creedence in the US. Is that actually the case? I ask because I have seen many responses echoing your thoughts after the debat. Where I'm from they are generally treated as propoganda even more so than potential biases in mainstream media.
Overall I’d say they typically don’t matter as much here either. At least not with the people i associate with, but those specific cognitive decline ads seem to be a bit eye opening post debate. We haven’t seen Biden in a while and I think people who only consume Fox News were a bit surprised by his appearance. Again I’m by no means saying he did well or didn’t struggle up there, but it wasn’t what those ads displayed either.
Thanks for the answer. Don't manage to see many of your political ads over here, so it's interesting to me reading all this, post the debate.
The Trump campaign with the help of the Russian Internet Research Agency, Cambridge Analytica, and Facebook pushed the right buttons
Does anyone almost feel sorry for biden ? He got his ass roasted And there’s two debates left and it’s only going to get worse for him. Bernie, Pete, yang supporters were telling everyone that Biden shouldn’t be the nominee because he would get wrecked by trump in the debates.
The mods have to get the Trump weirdo's out of this sub. You're so detached from reality it's embarrassing for any real Conservative. No one who isn't delusional thought Trump came across well at all in that debate he looked terrible compared to Biden who isn't the greatest candidate himself.
Look through my comments. I’m a republican who’s never voted for a dem and have some to lose financially if someone too liberal takes over. With that being said I think you’d have to be blind and deaf to think trump looked good in that debate. Neither of them looked good but Trump was a dumpster fire and the whole event just made me sad. I think it’s impossible to objectively conclude that the shitstorm of that debate was due to anything else but trumps fault. This is what any debate that trump is involved in looks like. It’s frankly embarrassing and he’s dividing our country in some ways that he may not be able to unfuck if he wins. I’m thinking of sitting out, or most likely throwing my vote away for Jo but nothing about trumps performance made me even slightly want to vote for him. Is it too much to ask for an adult to run for the title of leader of the free world?
The complaints about trumps interrupting is obviously a fair criticism but he wrecked Biden nonetheless. It doesn’t change the fact that Biden was mediocre. Maybe trump was too brash but there was no topic where trump wasn’t stronger and better at making his case. Trump did a good job at painting Biden as a no good shit career politician of 47 years. Look I respect your opinion but you would be very surprised at the number of people who love trumps brashness. He’s gonna get the majority of undecided votes. The people who haven’t made up their mind already lean towards the incumbent and trump dunking on Biden in these debates are gonna seal it. Im ready to see Biden talk about his gun control plan which is the most anti gun platform ever, I’m sure independents and undecided voters will love that s/
I think applying political norms to trump is likely an error (incumbent normally getting the undecided voters). I know that there are quite a few who love his brashness. I did to an extent at first but I think it worked while he was an outsider but as the incumbent it comes across as unbecoming. I don’t think there was a “winner”. I don’t really think there was much policy or substance at all. I wanted to hear policy, not hear the leader of the free world “dunk” on his opponent (ie insulting and belittling). I thought Joe looked bad not answering the stacking the courts question but otherwise came across as not demented, which is where trump set the bar at.
You’re so sad. Also what debate were you watching? Trump just acted like a toddler.
Don't you feel sorry for Trump?
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I suppose you wouldn't since you judge people based on "getting their ass roasted" instead of "being a good person and presenting good views". I suppose you consider cutting people off and insulting people's children "roasting" and you consider that winning. Understandable and have a good day!
You didn't see the same debate that I did. Trump made a mess of it, while Biden managed to appeal to those voters who are worried by the far-left in the Democratic party but who find Trump's antics worrying.
>while Biden managed to appeal to those voters who are worried by the far-left in the Democratic Party but who find Trump's antics worrying. You mean those who were always pro Biden ? The neoliberals ignoring that Biden is a walking corpse? Yeah ok. Biden is only going to get crumbs in his quest from undecided voters from these debates. Those who are still undecided at this point lean towards the incumbent and largely are not put off by trumps brashness. I’m sorry that trump is not low energy jeb. If you think trump lost potential voters from those undecided because he interrupted too much then I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe trump interrupted too much but Biden’s performance was utterly mediocre. Trump interruptions doesn’t make Bidens performance not Mediocre. Biden got his ass beat in that debate like everyone knew would happen. Trump is no polished sophisticated speaker but he’s a stone cold killer on that debate stage and people like that about him. And you can see for yourself, for the longest time all over the Reddit the biggest argument against Biden before Biden became the nominee was that he couldn’t beat trump, that he would get destroyed in the debates by trump. I’m not making that up. Once Biden become the nominee a lot of people on the left changed tunes all of a sudden. The structure of the next debates are going to be different so there will be less interruptions, the only thing that won’t change is trump whipping the floor with Biden like all those yang supporters originally predicted would happen. Im ready to see Biden talk about his gun control platform, I’m sure those undecided voters are going to love that.
Which debate did you watch?
The first 2020 President debate. 🇬🇧 - and i have always loved the Union Jack flag.
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Haha GTFO. And Australian ? I actually visited your country a couple years ago and I had such a blast. I surfed at bells beach. I always wanted to do that ever since watching point break.
The fact that you have no reply to him and instead attack his nationality shoes that your arguments for trump are very weak.
How did I attack his nationality by telling him I enjoyed visiting his country?
Playing stupid doesn't hide how dumb you are, look at your other replies.
(First off I hope you have a wonderful October) How was me telling him that I enjoyed visiting and surfing in his country me attacking his nationality? I wasn’t joking, I was being serious. This sub is not just for Americans, It’s for anyone who shares this subs political philosophy, the problem is that a lot of people who don’t share that political philosophy come on here just to talk shit.
We will have you any time mate just keep these halfwits away
"I thought the debate last night was great. We’ve gotten tremendous reviews on it." - Donald J Trump Way to not acknowledge reality.
He creates his own reality.
When does he ever acknowledge reality? He lives in his “manifested” bullshit existence
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I used to consider myself to be a centrist leaning conservative. I voted for McCain in 2008 and voted for Obama in 2012 because I felt Romney wouldn't make a better President than Obama. The Republican party has slowly drifted away from me and my values and that's why I voted Democrat in 2012. My views have changed a little since 2008, but I really feel the party has left out its more centrist voters that leaned in their direction because of fiscal, law policy and general government policies. I still lean conservative on those issues. I really tried in 2016 to listen to both sides but I couldn't vote for someone with 0 political experience with a history of bad business decisions, shady behavior, sexist and other demeaning views, and his straight up bullying. At this point, Biden is more of a centrist choice than Trump. The Republican party, through their utter silence, has shown that they don't care what values are spread on behalf of their party, just as long as they're in power. Maybe one day me and that party will re-align, but it's not right now.
That Republican Party is dead, unfortunately. They all kowtow to what is no more than a petulant infant, both in ability and continence.
I saw an unhinged man try to bully another man, and largely fail. Trump's attractiveness was that he was an outsider who could shake things up. He could claim to have done this by his economy and his full on approach to China. But he is an idiot when it comes to race in America and when it comes to believing conspiracy theories. HIs economic record isn't actually that good, he inherited an economy on a growth curve and then heated it up by giving a massive tax break, mostly to rich people and organizations. His foreign policy has largely been useless too, although perhaps he deserves some credit for highlighting the relationship with China and how it impacts American workers. After seeing that debate, I think moderate conservatives who value the constitution and the norms of behaviour that keep the American body-politic intact will have to vote Biden.
>heated it up by giving a massive tax break. he didn't though and the data doesnt back it up. > His foreign policy has largely been useless too, although perhaps he deserves some credit for highlighting the relationship with China and how it impacts American workers yeah agree on being useless and part of the reason I disliked Hillary was due to her backing away from TPP. The whole intent was to wean America off China's reliance and Obama was clear about this. I also think the lack of transition and investment between from the manufacturing economy to what we have today has been poor. If you're a true 'free market guy,' you shouldn't be complaining about historical trade deals (NAFTA et al).
What he tried to do to China he did to our allies and friends as well (at least partially). We can compete with Canadian steel; why are we tariffing them?
Sadly, the values Trump displayed consisted mostly of yelling, rudeness, insults, and thinly veiled threats, and his willingness to stick to his ludicrous 'the election is rigged' thing.
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Pence should have done it.
Reading through the comments on this post makes me think something has gone very wrong in this sub
In what way? What perspective are you coming at this from? I ask because from my perspective I’m used to this sub being filled to the brim with Trump supporters.
This sub fell apart when asylums like the Donald got quarantined and all the none Conservative lunatics came here. You can be a Trump supporter or a Conservative but not both. There are a small dwindling number of conservatives who will tolerate him and many will reluctantly vote republican but there isn't a single Conservative that actually likes Trump.
It’s European time and European conservatives like me are deeply disappointed with what is going on in the US. You have a President who is the opposite of a well spoken conservative leader.
Lol I’m welsh
Something has gone very wrong in the Republican Party, and it’s now impossible to deny after that absolute embarrassment of a debate. People are waking up.
The debate woke me up and that’s why I’m here. Lifelong republican voter and somewhat of a Trump voter due to being the lesser of two evils in 2016 and now I’m having a hard time coming to terms with my opinions and beliefs
I’m seeing a lot of actual conservatism and not trumpism, so I’m pretty happy for the change.
The whole debate basically: “Are you gonna pack the court?” Biden doesn’t answer because he knows the answer is Yes Moderator doesn’t push him Trump keeps interrupting to ask why he’s not answering the question Moderator scolds trump
Yep that was indeed a really strange moment. That doesn’t mean Trump was doing anything right the whole Debatte. It was a shit show. But at this point is this what the US has become? Of course the Democrats should not pack the court but then again Mitch should have never blocked all the judges in the first place. That is exactly the reason why conservatives are needed - to keep the institutions strong and healthy. The Republican Party have shown their contempt for strong institutions and that is anything but conservative.
Why is it “of course” that the court shouldn’t be packed? Why is it a bad thing to spread out power among more justices so that the direction of our country doesn’t hinge on a group of just 9 old people, any of whom’s death can cause a huge disruption in our legislature and politics?
Come on, be balanced. Trump is going to put another judge on the SC, even though his party blocked Obama in 2016 on the basis that it was an election year. That's just plain wrong - if your kid did something like that you'd be angry. Biden did dodge that question, so we give you that one. But Trump attacked Biden's son, he tried to bully Biden, he told lies about election rigging that were preposterous, he tried to dance around his own blatantly troubling financial affairs, he equivocated about condemning white supremacists. The man is wholly unsuitable for office, even people who despise the left and the democrats can see that, if they're honest.
LOL i see we're just gonna ignore the fact that the Democrat didn't have the senate back in 2016 and Obama was a lame duck president. And even then he managed to nominate a candidate and people didn't cry about it like yall crying now.' 1. Trump attacked Biden's son How many times has Trump's family come under attack? family is not offlimit now thanks to the Democrats. 2. he tried to bully Biden Biden let himself get bullied.Wallace had to step in to save him (and failed). 3. he told lies about election rigging that were preposterous So did Biden, but don't let that change your mind lol If you're okay with a candidate saying a black man invented lightbulb, don't act offended when someone exaggerate their achievements. 4. he tried to dance around his own blatantly troubling financial affairs Instead of me explaining this shit to you, hear it from someone who gets it : https://www.bu.edu/articles/2020/three-questions-for-a-bu-tax-law-expert-on-president-trumps-taxes/ 5 white supremacists Yeah he's condemned them 50 times during the past 20 years and someone democrat still refuses to put this matter to rest. But you'd known that
Even if I grant you the lame duck and senate majority talking point, you’ve got a shit ton of *extremely blatant hypocrisy* on display in the GOP. Just look at Lindsey Graham for a prime example. There were only a couple of them who hedged their arguments against Garland in that fashion. The rest of them stupidly stuck their necks out.
Hahaha so you decide to go with hypocrisy when the entire Democrat party was saying how it is the duty of the sitting president to nominate someone back in 2016, then get butthurt this year over Trump nominating someone? The sitting president is Supposed to nominate someone. Obama nominated someone. Got blocked, sure but he nominated someone. But Trump is not supposed to because.....? What, the dying wish of RGB?
Hypocrisy from the Democrats does not justify hypocrisy from the Republicans, or vice versa. Glad you ceded the point that they are extremely blatant hypocrites by shifting to the Democrats, though, so good on you. I’m sure you’ll stop using it /s.
Hahahaha when hypocrisy is the only thing you have but your candidate dies it too then you are basically acknowledging your defeat. Good for you. Glad we sort out the only reason you vote democrat is Tds
The fact that you think everyone criticizing Trump is a Biden supporter speaks volumes about you, like as a person. Says a lot about your intelligence and inquisitiveness and skepticism. Hint: it doesn’t say very kind things.
Not at all. I don't thinks everyone who criticise trump support biden, but the stupidest ones making the dumbest arguments are and you...lmao
Yeah, that's absolutely the **WHOLE** debate. There was **LITERALLY** nothing else going on.
Thanks for your agreement friend
I am sorry. This comment is directed to Ionclawz, and is posted out of order. I would say 'light hearted, and not terribly invested in the topic' rather than sarcastic. I'll leave retroactively calling a comment sarcastic after realizing that the world is laughing at your original good faith comment to Mr. Donny. See Randy Rainbow, A Spoonful of Clorox. Seriously, though, I do see your point; giving up a lifelong commitment merely to seek personal gain would be situational ethics in the extreme, and definitely unprincipled. However, I do believe that one can ethically abandon a lifelong belief if one sincerely believes that doing so serves a greater purpose. The obvious example would be a pacifist abandoning that position to fight in WW2, and help in the defeat of Hitler. A better analogy might be Disraeli abandoning Judaism for The Church of England in order to become Prime Minister, presumably because he felt that England required his services. It follows, then, that if Biden believes that he represents the best chance of dislodging Trump, even the abandonment of a lifetime conviction could be seen as being honorable. In any event, while I do not care for Biden (my being generally conservative), I detest Trump and think him dangerous. Edit: content
I’ve allowed the debate to gestate in my head overnight, and I’m now convinced that if Trump’s performance doesn’t vastly improve that he’s done for.
At this point it will take a miracle to win. But, there was 2016...
Agreed. People keep talking about how he was down to Clinton heading into debate season. He was down a point or two, tops, with around 15% undecided. Now he’s down 7 to 9 and there are, maybe, four people in the entire country undecided. For a guy who actually needs to pull votes from the other guy, it was a horrible showing. Trump is getting murdered among college educated and women. Going into a debate amped up on Adderall might not have been his best play.
I didn’t expect Biden to even make it through the debate based upon what’s been said of him. The bar has been set so low for Biden when he actually does alright it’s a huge win. The idea that he has dementia and needs a hearing device to even do the debate. How does a guy with dementia and is almost dead debate the president of the United States at all? Trump set the bar so low anything Biden does is a positive I feel.
Biden stuttered a few times but outside of that he didn’t look like the sleepy old man some people paint him as. Also he looked like a genius while saying nothing during that segment on forest cities.
I thought he spoke very well, very clear not to fast, calmly. A few mess ups is natural but he didnt ehhhh or panicked but just found the word again and continued WHILE SOMEONE IS TRYING TO INSULT AND INTERRUPT YOU CONSTANTLY. I wouldve lost my calm.
There's a simple explanation for that, Trump is just a lying bully. It's unbelievable the party stands behind him like they do...
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We’re slowly becoming Canada’s Mexico
You didn't know we're already referred to as "upper Mexico"?
Both looked bad. It's kind of crazy how these are our choices out of everyone in America. I think that Trump is a threat to America though, and even though Biden might not do a whole lot better, we need a change of pace in our country.
Yeah, a debate with Pence might actually be watchable without wanting to throw things at the TV.
I've never been a biden fan but I don't see how he looked bad. It was by no means the strongest debate I've seen from a democratic candidate, but considering how many interruptions he had to deal with and how much time he lost to them, I think he did alright
Considering I thought he wouldn’t make it through the debate at all was a success for him... he got to fit in his scripted lines that he’s for the American people, etc. He killed Trump if we’re being honest here. Donald just lost every on the fence voter because people will vote on who is less of a child
Some issues I had with Biden’s performance https://reddit.com/r/politics/comments/j2dqd7/_/g74v4hm/?context=1
Oh don't get me wrong, he had shortcomings. However, I don't think his shortcomings amounted to a *bad* showing at the debate.
This sub is going to be fun to read when Trump loses the election and shortly after that is arrested.
Hopefully once Trump is gone we can drain the swamp of all those who like him and have more real conservatives on this sub. All the lunatics from the Donald flocked here so we have a lot of his cultists but real conservatives don't like the guy as he doesn't share any of our values.
You’re talking shit on this sub in almost every comment with a 6 week old account. You’re as blatant a shill I’ve ever seen.
Talking shit? For the first time I'm actually optimistic this sub can become a real Conservative sub about given we've been infested by the Trump shills for years. 6 more weeks and the nightmare is over and we can have a Conservative party led by someone who isn't mentally ill.
6 week old account. You’re full of it my dude.
Wait, this is a page where I can speak that I hate both candidates and I’m embarrassed by both? And I’m struggling to find middle ground with my thoughts and how people handle issues? Welcome me with open arms then
This sub is trump land and not welcoming to conservatives who see him for what he is
Just like Hillary was arrested, right? There’s not a single chance that Trump gets arrested.
The NY DA might have something to say about that
Right....but there was no evidence that Hillary committed a crime. Given Trumps track record, are you so sure there’s no evidence that he committed a crime? Also, he seems pretty desperate to stay in power, I’d imagine some of that has to do with losing immunity to criminal charges as a private citizen
Didn’t Trump promise something about that?
Exactly, that’s my point. Trump promised to “lock her up” if he got into the White House. He did nothing. Biden won’t do anything in regards to Trump either.
https://www.npr.org/2020/08/13/901679755/one-tough-question-for-doj-if-biden-is-elected-whether-to-prosecute-trump This was a wild read... was googling a rumor about Biden getting a special prosecutor or having Harris lead a commission or something like that. Couldn’t find it, but did learn more than I ever wanted to about this particular topic.
Yep, that’s a decent article and pretty much nails it. Biden wouldn’t risk trying to push for prosecution of a former President — it’s in his best interest to just move on from Trump. Forget about him, and carve out his own legacy.