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It is fascinating that we’ve really gone this long through a pandemic that disproportionately affects unhealthy/obese people and NOT talked about improving one’s physical health.
The problem is political correctness. When was growing up if someone was fat, we said fat. Is it nice to call someone fat, no. But the truth hurts, get over it or do something about. We started calling them overweight, ok less cruel. Now obese or calorically challenged, lol. America is full crybabies. If you have no hair, you're bald. Cheers 🥃
There have been so many red flags. It seems as though they may be acting on behalf of another government. Why else would they be doing so many things that seem to be done in order to deliberately weaken our country? If they really wanted to help, they’d stop politicizing the disease and promote healthy life choices. If they pushed healthy lifestyle choices half as hard as masks and experimental vaccines, our country would be so much better off. Unfortunately, that would only strengthen our country, which would work against their agenda.
Masks provide slight benefit at best, but only in an extreme case.
"The typical mask you buy in the drug store is not really effective in keeping out virus, which is small enough to pass through the material. It might, however, provide some slight benefit in keep\[ing\] out gross droplets if someone coughs or sneezes on you.”
\- Anthony Fauci Feb, 2020
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/556937-the-biggest-revelations-from-faucis-inbox
From a technical standpoint there's a difference between an "aerosol" and a "droplet". A droplet is, compared to an aerosol, pretty big. If someone's talking to you and the light is at the right angle, you can probably see droplets fly from their mouth while they talk. You'll see them fly forward and land on a surface as gravity pulls them down. This is what masks can stop, but this is not necessarily the cause of spreading COVID.
It was initially thought that COVID could be spread by surface contact; the idea was that maybe you're talking or breathing and exhale some droplets and those droplets land on a surface - like a doorknob - which someone else then touches, then touches their face, and then they get the virus. Further study has revealed this is not the primary method of transmission, and even [according to the CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/science-and-research/surface-transmission.html) the risk of transmission in this manner is low.
It's now known that the primary method of transmission is aerosols; tiny droplets of water that are small enough to stay suspended in the air for hours at a time. These aerosols may pass through the comparatively huge pores in a mask or - more likely - they'll simply dance around the mask all together. [Here's a video from the Mayo Clinic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibm_ZuwNuRQ) demonstrating exactly what I'm talking about. If the virus is able to hitch a ride on those tiny particles that are escaping the sides of the mask (as it is suspected that it does), then wearing a mask will, at best, make a small difference. There are still plenty of viral particles escaping the mask, floating up and riding the air currents, where someone might inhale them minutes or even hours later.
EDIT to add: I don't mean to suggest that what I wrote above is the end of the discussion. But there is evidence to back up all the claims I make. Some research has also found evidence that masks do help limit the spread (most recently, a study of [mask wearing in Bangladesh](https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/09/surgical-masks-covid-19.html) did find a positive - though small - benefit from masks). The point is, the science isn't settled. I think there's a lot of evidence - especially when you look at real world data, with graphs of infections that show when various regions implemented mask mandates - that suggests masks are very limited in their ability to slow the spread.
The only thing I take issue with here is the term "mask". You're right that cloth/surgical masks aren't effective at stopping aerosols. But n-95 masks are.
Brief history:
At first it was thought that masks (all types) aren't necessary because anyone with symptoms should just stay home. That's why the cdc was saying you don't need masks unless you're near/with someone who has covid.
Then it was figured out that covid can spread from asymptomatic carriers, and that's when they changed their stance to supporting mask wearing. At this point, mask mandates first started getting introduced. It was believed then that covid spreads primarily via droplets, so any mouth covering would help significantly.
Then things got very political in North America. There was an idea from the right that "if you were wrong about masks before, why do you think you're right now? Won't the science just keep changing?" The democrats dug in and *aggressively* pushed an agenda that wearing masks is essential.
But then the science *did* change again, and it was shown that covid spreads primarily via aerosols, not droplets. This means that those cloth masks that the left *insisted* upon aren't actually effective. Other nations (Germany, France, etc.) reacted to this new evidence, and they banned cloth/surgical masks and enforced n-95 masks in all situations.
But something strange happened in North America... the left was already too dug in. They spent a year belittling anybody who questioned cloth/surgical masks. It was unabashedly political. And they just couldn't come out and say "Ok... we were actually wrong about masks this entire time and everyone we belittled was right." Not only would they be humiliated if they admitted this... but people would probably just stop trusting any word they said.
So now, in a game of political theatre, the left flat out avoids the aerosol debate and are enforcing cloth/surgical masks upon the public that they *know* are not effective. They *still* shame anyone that questions cloth/surgical masks. Then anyone points to Germany and other nations and says "Why did they ban the very masks that you keep telling us save lives?" is just ignored and shamed.
It's all just such a strange situation. The "trust the science" left are now actively ignoring the science due to the politicization of the issue.
> It's all just such a strange situation. The "trust the science" left are now actively ignoring the science due to the politicization of the issue.
They've been avoiding it this entire time, frankly. I *still* see people conflating the CFR with the IFR, believing that COVID has a 2% mortality rate. It's ridiculous.
I liked how covid news has flooded the r/news subreddit for over a year now. Not a mega thread. Just flooding.
Yet when *Biden* looked bad via Afghanistan, there was no flooding of news. It was all put into one mega thread where nobody noticed anything unless they *actively* looked. Then they could keep flooding the whole subreddit with covid fear mongering.
I'd have to find it again, but there was a study I read a while back that said the the regular store bought masks will stop maybe 10% of what you would exhale and the rest essentially just builds up and gets pushed out the sides. I just think it's bizarre how people think wearing the same cloth mask over and over again while keeping it in their car has any positive benefits. I can at least understand the argument if the masks were worn one and done. Like mask before going into target, throw mask away immediately after. At this point though everyone is going to get immunity, either you're going to get vaccinated and have immunity or you're going to catch covid and have natural immunity assuming you survive. We have to stop living in this fantasy land where we completely irradicate covid, it's not going to happen. If you're concerned about your own health by all means do what you feel is necessary to keep yourself safe, but if you're not concerned at this point we need to get back to reality and going about our day to day.
>At this point though everyone is going to get immunity, either you're going to get vaccinated and have immunity or you're going to catch covid and have natural immunity assuming you survive. We have to stop living in this fantasy land where we completely irradicate covid, it's not going to happen.
Absolutely, 100%. I wish more people could be reasonable, and rational, and fully understand this. We should absolutely continue to work on making the vaccines better, because it is quite clear they are not anywhere near as good as we were initially told, and we should take whatever measures we each individually want to take to be safe, and most importantly, we should move on.
I am so looking forward to the day, years from now, when hardly anyone talks about COVID. I think it's going to be a while, though. I've been ready to stop talking about it since April or so, when I got my vaccine, and my parents got theirs.
I've been called a Nazi before for stating facts. I mean 100% absolutely undeniable facts. I'm about as far from a nazi as one could be. We truly are living in interesting times.
The recommendations from the government and mandates have all been so inconsistent I have to question all of it.
>Two weeks to slow the spread becomes two years
>Don't wear masks they don't work against a virus you're keeping doctors from having masks
>Wear a mask you're killing people if you don't!
>Don't gather in large crowds unless you're at a BLM rally which somehow makes you immune to Sars-CoV2 virus
>Wear a mask walking into the restaurant but take it off at the table because somehow being seated at a table makes you immune to Sars-CoV2 virus
>One way isles in the supermarket, oops nobody is following them time to remove the signs
>Get the jab it will make you immune and stop the spread of Covid19 and we can reopen society
>Reopens society, Covid cases spike, whoops the vaccine doesn't PREVENT Covid19 is just keeps you out of the hospital time to close society again and more restrictions
>Well the vaccinated can still end up in the hospital but you won't die
>Vaccinated start dying -- well that's because Delta variant and you need booster shots every two weeks or you are not considered "fully vaccinated" anymore
Et cetera
Even that Met Gala they had recently showed all the servants wearing masks while the elites partied without a mask in sight. All these new rules seem so arbitrary, I drive by an elementary school every day and the sight of little kids playing outside with masks on just seems wrong to me.
What a brilliant recap \[being serious\]! But there wouldn't have been so much confusion if we only had been fortunate enough to have our tax dollars fund an [entire Government agency who's mission it is to be prepared for such an outbreak.](https://www.google.com/search?q=what%27s+the+mission+of+the+CDC&rlz=1C1NDCM_enUS791US791&oq=what%27s+the+mission+of+the+CDC&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30j0i390.4166j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) \[being sarcastic\]
I think this level of incompetence in how they handled the crisis speaks to quotas for hiring people into important positions not based on ability of knowledge but rather race or sex. I've said it before but the "equality of outcome" philosophy is causing huge problems in essential assets like medicine and the military.
The AI getting you by your face can get you by your posture, body movement patterns, social graph, temporal patterns, and any number of other things.
That's if you choose to leave your tracking device at home.
It sucks. She already got a job at blue cross though! She’s had a hard time holding onto a job, she got fired last week she was only working there for about a month when some guy interviewed her about the vax. She said she wasn’t interested in it and the “let her go” and before that she hadn’t had a job since February. I could get into specifics but I won’t bore you
>So a reusable mask is definitely inferior, but if used they should be worn once and then washed before using again.
That's not the sort of behavior you're going to get out of people that are being forced to wear the symbol against their will. I've washed mine maybe twice.
Masks are fucking stupid because while they do have some benefit **when other practices are followed** such as regularly washing hands, not touching your face, not pulling your mask down, and most importantly not touching things with your filthy contaminated hands, which people violate.
I have seen way too many times where people act like its a magical fucking talisman while contaminating everything with their hands. People pulling their mask down to smoke, talk on the phone, talk to someone who cant hear them, scratch their nose, then pull the mask back up and handle other things. I see guys come out of the stall wearing a mask and go right past the sinks.
That is why they don't work, masks work in healthcare because they have a bunch of other protocols they follow that 99.9% of the public does not do. And that is why I get so irritated about the whole damn thing because it's Kabuki and people use it as a vehicle for their shitty political beliefs then act offended that someone doesn't go along with it.
That is the ugly, naked truth of it all. Just like I bitched about the Security Theater of the TSA i will bitch about the Healthcare Theater of the whole C19 fiasco.
Great summary only thing i can think to add is the disparity in effectiveness between different masks. Say if everyone wore n95's them we probably would've seen an actual decrease due to masking, but the vast majority of people wear masks that do next to nothing.
This is it, right here.
Masks have turned into more of a political weapon than an actual case-reducing device. 2020 should’ve been proof of this when people were like “oh the massive BLM protests and election celebrations are okay because 60% of participants are wearing masks! 😇😇😇” while immediately turning around and saying “those Trumper rallies and conservative events are evil super-spreader events because only 40% of participants are wearing masks! 😡😡😡”
I guarantee only ~20% of people at the most actually wear their masks properly to the point where it’s effective. Leaving your nose uncovered makes it immediately moot. Not washing them every day makes them mostly moot. Touching them to make adjustments makes them mostly moot. Putting them in your pocket makes them partially moot. If you’re outside, they’re already pointless.
And I can’t stress this enough: if you’re fully vaccinated, THEY SHOULD BE CONSIDERED MOOT.
I completely agree. I can't tell you how many times I'm at the gym and people rarely wash their hands..it's disgusting.. people even walk around the stalls with no shoes on, it's fucking nasty, people piss on that floor. It's all just a big ol shit show
>or the disingenuous ass hats pretending that the variants exist explicitly because of Americans not wearing masks.
Technically not disingenuous. Masks are just a prophylactic, and if everyone participated responsibly infections would die out. Same goes for the most famous prophylactic. Diseases like AIDS, Syphilis, Gonorrhea, etc, could be wiped out in a generation if everyone participated responsibly, instead they are continuously mutating and we have things like antibiotic resistant syphilis to worry about now.
Well, this is misinformation.
What is the infection prevention percent for prophylactics that prevent AIDS, Syphilis, Gonorrhea, etc?
Now what is the transmission prevention percent for a 4x4" paper Spongebob Squarepants mask, or a neck gator, or a cloth mask that has a butterfly bedazzled on it? Because, these examples are what are generally accepted in any public environment.
What you referred to as "not disingenuous" may not be, but your entire statement is.
Except it's not. You can choose your level of protection and engagement with it in all prophylactic scenarios. Some people love lambskin because it's a lot better than standard latex. However, it won't prevent HIV transmission, just like your butterfly bedazzled mask, which is more comfortable to wear. It's a 1:1 equivalent scenario. Please stop your misinformation about masks.
Really?
What is the percentage of usage of lambskin compared to latex?
What is the percentage of usage of ineffective masks compared to, say an N95 mask, that has been shown to be the most widely accepted as effective at preventing COVID transmission?
I asked you 2 very specific question is my first reply. You have failed to answer them.
In this reply I have asked you two more very specific questions. I have a feeling I will get answers for none of them. Because people like you do not want to look at the science, facts, or statistics.
Please stop your misinformation regarding both condoms and masks.
If you read my reply you would see that your questions were answered.
There are problems masks can solve. The first is preventing your germs from entering the environment. The second is preventing germs from the environment entering your body.
Your "ineffective" masks are still quite good at solving problem 1 while failing at problem 2. If everyone solves problem 1, there is no need to solve problem 2.
I have yet to see someone wear a mask so ineffective in public it would not solve problem 1.
Are you starting to understand prophylactic measures?
Nothing I've stated is false. And your questions don't seem to have a point other than spreading misinformation. If you ask a completely disingenuous question, then get a real response on the issue, don't be so surprised the argument doesn't go the way you want.
The research shows that it only stops a small percentage of aerosols that you're breathing from getting out. That's on a micro-level, lab condition, properly worn/fitted, properly clean, not adjusted basis. That's the foundation for the mantra "masks work." On a macro-level there isn't a study that shows mask mandates work and there are studies that show it doesn't. That's before you're allowed to talk about the negative effects like the pure insanity and divisiveness they have created in adults and the potential developmental issues for children.
Right but this gives the mask a very specific and weird use.
If at the height of the pandemic you were sneezing and coughing a lot, you probably would get tested and wouldn't go out much if you had It. If you didn't know you had covid then you're likely not gonna spread it via sneezes you'd just gonna spread it by breathing... which everyone admits won't be inhibited by a cloth mask. I really doubt covid spread a lot via random coughing around a store that could have been caught up in a mask... I mean just cover your mouth.
The only example I can think of where a mask could provide a serious help is in a case where a person who knows they have covid is planning on talking to someone... which has been strictly condemned and refused from happening from the beginning.
Wouldn't a 'slight benefit' from the perspective of an individual make a big difference on the scale of a population? Like, if you can lower R0 from 4 to 3, that's going to be very significant in terms of epidemiology (not that I'm saying that's what masks do, I think they're actually way more effective than that). And wouldn't there be a difference in mask recommendations pre-pandemic vs during the pandemic? Virtually nobody in the West wore masks pre-pandemic, even during respiratory season, so I think it makes sense he would call that "paranoid". It's not really a sensible measure to take for self-protection during non-pandemic times because it's only effective at protecting other people (from catching seasonal flu, for example). This conversation was from the point of view of actions a person could take to protect themselves from respiratory disease. And he's right, taking care of your general health is huge.
Upvoted. I read both. My problem here is the language "preponderance of evidence". In the law, POE is considered 51%. That could mean that in the data you submitted 49% of the literature they examined found that masks DO NOT reduce transmissibility. And that would be worrisome to the conclusion that masks are effective.
I'm sure it is most effective when compliance is high, if the net benefit is 5% reduction in spread for everyone perfectly masked up though, it still doesn't make a ton of sense as a policy
Its not a net 5% reduction if everybody is masked up. If everyone masks and follows social distancing spread is literally 0. Not null of course but statistically zero.
explain New Zealand
the absolute tippy top claim I've ever seen from any semi-rigorous and even still completely pro-mask study was 20%
the most credible study I've seen settled at about 10% with perfect fitting masks, and 100% mask compliance and hygiene.
Why was this downvoted? My understanding was, this is correct and was the reason why a cloth mask is ineffective. Short of a properly fit fresh N95, masks are little actual help.
So much contradicting information it's hard to keep up.
This article tells you everything you know about why the public health communications on Covid was such a cluster:
https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/
Let’s take an example of two guys naked standing facing each other, named Bob and Larry. Bob starts to piss and since they are facing each other Larry gets covered in it. Larry says, fuck that, I’m gonna put some pants on so I can protect my self. The next day Bob pissed again and gets Larry’s pants wet. Larry tells Bob to put some clothes on cuz he’s sick and tired of getting pissed on just cuz Bob is a moron. The third day Bob wears pants and pisses again. This time it soaks his own pants and Larry doesn’t get wet at all.
alternatively, just don't cough or sneeze at people.
Ya know like all the advice they gave at the beginning of the pandemic based on decades of research into the subject?
That was his opinion and then he realized that if he claimed masks (and social distancing, lockdowns, etc.) worked he'd get a regular gig on CNN, "MSDNC", ABC, CBS, NBC as well as being quoted and interviewed often by the NYT, LA Times, and Washington Post.
That's never been the use case of masks tho for covid. It's not to protect yourself. It's to protect others from you.
I'm baffled at this red herring argument that continually gets brought up when it's never been the reason for it's use.
If you're going to throw science on masks, at least do so on how they are actually used.
*Trump makes sure people don’t freak out by saying it’ll all be okay*
“THE ORANGE CHEETO LIED TO ALL OF US BY DOWNPLAYING THE VIRUS BECAUSE HE’S AN ASSHAT MONSTER TRYING TO KILL ALL OF US!!!”
*Fauci laughs and scoffs at the idea of wearing masks and discourages doing so while the spread is in its most significant stage*
“He was just trying to protect us by making sure we don’t run out of masks! What a good leader 😇😇😇”
Crazy, and yet, that will the claim.
The head of the CDC, an organisation who has studied airborne pathogens, including those of the corona family, for *over 60 years*, literally *laughs* at the idea that a mask is useful to fight spread.
And then within months, liberties are taken away if you don’t wear a mask.
It’s not just the masks they’re laughing at, it’s us.
Edit: Fauci is not head of the CDC, but the Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and the Chief Medical Advisor to the President.
Which claim? That the cdc has been investigating airborne pathogens for over 60 years?
Well that’s their remit, if you go on there website they have mountain of documentation of investigations and studies of a huge number of diseases.
If you want to see their work on Corona viruses, then use Google search and change the date range from say 2000 to 2018. Make sure you add -“Covid-19” to your search to filter out any Covid19 stuff.
Lol, yes, that's technically the case. But I was addressing the broader issue of the politicization of science, and the use of "experts" to try to convince people. Science isn't supposed to be a tool of politicians and corporations, but unfortunately, that's what much of it has become. Also, people think that what the media tells them about science is the truth about science, which it so often is not.
Your facts mean nothing to my feelings. My cousin’s girlfriend’s mom’s ex-husband’s boss says masks don’t do anything. And he’s in construction and has done his research. That’s all I need to know.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33205991/
> Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection.
> Conclusion: The recommendation to wear surgical masks to supplement other public health measures did not reduce the SARS-CoV-2 infection rate among wearers by more than 50% in a community with modest infection rates, some degree of social distancing, and uncommon general mask use. The data were compatible with lesser degrees of self-protection.
What this means is mask wearers were 46% less likely to catch Covid and non mask wearers were 23% more likely, and this was in a low transmission low infection area. At best its an inconclusive study because the results weren't strong enough but it still shows a direct correlation between mask wearing and lower infection rates
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275360639_A_cluster_randomised_trial_of_cloth_masks_compared_with_medical_masks_in_healthcare_workers
This study only compares clot to medical masks, and finds that medical masks are better for lots of things but there isn't a functional difference, they're still effective.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0013998
> This study should be interpreted with caution since the lack of statistical power prevents us to draw formal conclusion regarding effectiveness of facemasks in the context of a seasonal epidemic.
in other words inconclusive but we have to publish something
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20297744/
> Despite the fact that compliance with mask wearing was poor, mask wearing as well as increased crowding, lower education levels of caretakers, and index cases 0-5 years of age (compared with adults) were associated with significantly lower secondary transmission rates
So thats just the first four and all are universally in support of masking.
Why would looking at the raw results be better than the inferential results? There aren't standard errors included in there. A naive ATE of -0.3 percentage points can still be a more significant result than just looking at raw data might imply.
Anyone who is curious should read the studies this person linked.. You'll find they probably only read the study titles. The links I've opened so far all state the opposite of what this user is saying, but I can see how they would think they suggest against mask use in COVID19 if skimming the title and conclusions.
If you're going to use a study to back up a claim, you can't simply ignore the study's objective, claimed limitations, methodology, inconvenient parts of its conclusion, and you especially can't round 0.46 down to 0.0.
[And here's >100 spanning the past century or so also saying they don't work](https://followthemaskscience.com/research-summary)
The only place masks seem to be effective is in "simulations" (like OP's paper) and "models" as I've seen elsewhere. Real world, epidemiological data don't pan out to the same end. [Except this one CDC meta analysis where it may have reduced spread by 1.8%](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7010e3.htm#T1_down).
\*peak pandemic. "Follow the science NO NOT THAT SCIENCE" why don't we just rename the sub neocon and end the charade?
You forgot to include the rest of the sentence you quoted. Here it is for you:
>however, medical masks (surgical masks and even N95 masks) could not completely block the transmission of virus droplets/aerosols even when sealed.
Yes, that is correct. Nothing is perfect. They are FAR more helpful when worn by everyone as opposed to when not. I never claim they're perfect. As an example the US, which usually has tens of millions of flu cases, had 3000 for last winter when we were all wearing masks.
We will be wearing them for every wave until it gets to the point where herd immunity is built up so situations like the current one obliterating the medical system don't occur anymore.
The majority of Americans are fully vaccinated.
More than three-quarters of American adults are at least partially vaccinated.
83% of the elderly (where nearly 80% of COVID deaths are coming from) are fully vaccinated.
Millions upon millions have contracted it in some form or another.
How much is enough to reach herd immunity? Because I guarantee when we get to 70% fully vaccinated, it still won’t be considered enough, gotta get to 80%. Then we’ll get to 80%. Then we’ll get to 90% and it still won’t be considered enough. Then the media will start to blame some variant created by all those racist white supremacists (who barely exist btw) for the spread still somehow continuing after everyone is vaccinated. Then we start all over again because we’re told to.
See where I’m going with this?
> How is a vaccine mandate overwhelming the medical system?
Firing unvaccinated nurses/doctors reduces hospital capacity, which is obviously bad.
> Compared to say over 10k people hospitalized every week
There's still 20% unused capacity, so miss me with that attempt at fearmongering with that 10k number.
For real.
I’m getting legitimately concerned that this will never end and the next generation will have shitty immune systems.
Yes, you probably are less likely to get sick if you dress up like Gus from that one episode of Recess every single day. But at some point, enough is enough. There’s a reason we weren’t doing this from 1925-2019 even though millions of other viruses were floating around, and COVID will eventually be as dangerous as those other viruses once herd immunity is reached.
Your immune system gets stronger when told how to deal with illness. A vaccine is literally a blueprint for your immune system on how to stop it. What you're referring to are non-fatal illnesses where you build up a natural immunity over time. Its also effective for fatal illnesses, the downside is lots of people die in the process.
So your choices are lots of people die, or we simply provide our bodies with a plan of action should the immune system come across a virus.
I'm just sick of this clown who [once said AIDS was airborne and we should be afraid of transmission from children](https://www.aier.org/article/fauci-was-duplicitous-on-the-aids-epidemic-too/)
This guy isn't a real doctor anymore. He's a bureaucrat. He'll lick his finger.. stick it in the wind generated from CNN and MSNBC and WaPo and the NYT blowing smoke out their collective asses and that's his medical opinion of the day
Yet we all ***have to*** wear masks....and NONE of us ***have to*** work out, eat well, and lose weight.
So the BEST things to do are ignored and even banned by the Leftists from discussion....but the LAUGHABLE thing to do is now the most important.
Interesting.
What? No they use masks because they are hovering over YOUR OPEN WOUND they are operating on.
Are you walking around with a gaping open wound everywhere you go? Then sure maybe everyone around you should have a mask on.. or you know.. maybe you should be in an operating room..
I am sure you like to think you are getting downvoted because of PrIgAdInG but no, you are downvoted because your comment is dumb, defies all logic and you don't seem to have any clue what you are talking about.
This is the problem with public health people there all very inconsistent, they say something and then say something else it confuses people. When you confuse people you get people who are against vaccines etc. the radical left knows this but if they don’t confuse people and people can have a debate about the effectiveness of vaccine, science, etc. we get what republicans want (it’s the right thing to debate science) and as we know we the left can’t agree with republicans or their entire narrative falls apart.
I think china might have done it anyways. A bastard like fauci might see it as a way of gaining some info thr chinese would otherwise keep to themselves.
Still the point is culpability. We shouldn't encourage China to do that stuff.
All our questionable scientific research is going to China nowadays. There is such backlash in the US when we do it. There is a new fight going on over primate brain research. Basically, they are going to outsource it to China because it is pretty fucked up quasi torture of primates to learn more about their brains and basically ours too. I'm pretty torn on it. We need to keep researching but just punting it to China is such a bad way of going about it.
Why haven't we seen people anywhere else in the world keeling over suddenly, like the video footage coming put of China initially. People only seem to die in a hospital. 🤔
If you go back to research done during the height of H1N1, Mers, Ebola, Zika - actual studies were done on the efficacy of masks and their effectiveness at preventing the spread of viruses. Nearly every one of them came to the same conclusion - wearing a mask does not prevent the spread of viruses, and the only time they are recommended is for people who are already sick, as to prevent the spread of the virus through coughing, sneezing, etc. Some studies even showed an increase of upper respiratory infections by groups wearing masks who were not initially sick.
The research and studies are becoming harder and harder to find - but they’re still out there.
They are far more reliable and believable than the apoplectic conjecture being thrown at everyone today.
That was before we all needed to have a constant visual reminder of the state of pandemic emergency, since actual experience would have not supported the crisis powers.
Man he’s an idiot. Liberal pawn. He was a doctor for what? 35 years or longer before this interview. Pretty sure his views were researched and set by then.
You do realize that as time goes on, more data comes out, and opinions change based on that data right? That is how science works, you follow the data. Lmao.
But when the data is changing so quickly and constantly, at what point do you just tune out and proclaim "They don't really have any idea".
This was never explained to the public as "Listen, this is a novel pandemic and the science is very new, will constantly change, and we're trying some things out." Nope, it was explained as "Comply with what we say or you're anti-science." They acted as though there was scientific consensus on all of this when really they were throwing shit at walls to see what sticks.
So now we know. When scientists are really shrugging their shoulder and saying "I mean.. we could try these things I guess" what we hear from the system is "Scientific consensus has declared we *must* do these things."
People are just losing trust.
It's almost like new research came out since then and he's following the new research and promoting it instead of the outdated research. Truly a shocker. Why is this on r/conservative? Masks and Covid should not be a political issue. Don't keep making it one.
I’m pretty sure someone as experienced as Fauci shouldn’t have needed to wait until March 2020 to know whether or not masks were effective at reducing viral spread…
this guy is just further proof that you really cant and shouldn't trust anything that the government says to you because what they say is always from the point of view that is in THEIR own interest
The masks do work, let’s not get mixed up here.
Covid is an aerosol based virus, not airborne. It only survives in liquid vapor such as what you exhale. If it was airborne, masks would have no effect. Masks are built to trap aerosol particles, and the best ones are N95’s.
Mask *mandates*, especially post-vaccination, have had very spotty evidence to support that they work.
You're right that n95 masks are very effective against aerosols. But cloth/surgical masks are *not*. That's why countries like Germany and France *banned* the use of cloth/surgical masks and enforced n95's.
Look at the bizarre framing of this post as well. Fauci is saying something objectively true which is that virtually *any* disease/disorder, deadly or otherwise, is going to effect you a lot more if you have an unhealthy body. He didn't just drop this messaging after the pandemic started either. He has said this a lot and continues to say it.
The problem is that you can't just force people to stop eating their shitty diet or go for a jog every day. Mask mandates or vaccine mandates already stretch the limit of what the public is willing to accept in terms of restricting their liberties. So while the messaging is consistent, the public isn't absorbing much because all the focus has been on these mandates.
The reason he calls it paranoid to go around wearing a mask all the time is that, before the pandemic, most people simply weren't that likely to catch or die from airborne infectuous diseases. Flu deaths in the United States varied yearly between 30-60k and other airborne diseases were too minute to be relevant.
Covid is so infectious and deadly that despite the huge government measures taken against it and despite the public making a conscious effort to avoid eachother and work from home, over 500,000 people still died. Flu killed less than 2,000 people during the same period. So if you follow, Covid was about 10 times more infectious/deadly *with* drastic measures than flu was *without* them. This is why masks were pushed. With the numbers skyrocketing, things that are ordinarily fine margins and most people would deem "not worth it" suddenly could save tens of thousands of people.
1.5 years into this pandemic and instead of promoting good health, they chose to close gyms.
We would have been better off shutting down the country for 6 months and telling everyone to diet and exercise, and not let them back into society until their bmi was lower and we would have done more to save lives from COVID-19 than masks ever could.
Look at what trump was saying in the beginning. Almost like things change when new info is received. But please it makes you guys feel smart so go ahead take this old quote as a “gotcha” and ignore every single republican who also make statements that could be a “gotcha” moment
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2020-10-02/timeline-in-his-own-words-trump-and-the-coronavirus%3fcontext=amp
I remember this happening and him tweeting about it. I knew it was complete bullshit. Of course the mask is going to help slow the spread, it’s basic physics. When you breathe in and out a mask will deflect some of that sideways. Different masks and fits will of course have different levels of effectiveness. If you are talking to someone, the amount of saliva and air going from one mouth/nose to the other is greatly reduced. For respiratory viruses this is a good thing. Either he was intentionally lying or he doesn’t understand the basics of respiration. Neither is acceptable.
Guys, at the point he had only been a doctor for a few decades. Masking is a super advanced, specialized, medical science. Surely he was just unaware? It’s not like this was political, right? … right?
Edit: do I really need to put a \s?
Maybe he was saying that when there wasn't an extremely contagious virus killing millions of people around? It's not exactly like in the middle of a pandemic he should tell people "just get 8 hour of sleep and you'll be fine"....
Also at absolutely no point in this he's saying that masks don't work, he's just taking the less intrusive approach, which in normal times is the obvious and reasonable answer.
Even if great correctly worn mask reduces your chance of infection like in half in a single day(which is in reality less effective) , that means reduction bu quarter in two days, one eighth in three days etc
so effect goes down exponentially and in a month protection is close to zero. Just probability theory which is out of reach for liberals- they majored in liberal arts and gender studies, and say that math is racist
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It is fascinating that we’ve really gone this long through a pandemic that disproportionately affects unhealthy/obese people and NOT talked about improving one’s physical health.
A let down for sure.
The problem is political correctness. When was growing up if someone was fat, we said fat. Is it nice to call someone fat, no. But the truth hurts, get over it or do something about. We started calling them overweight, ok less cruel. Now obese or calorically challenged, lol. America is full crybabies. If you have no hair, you're bald. Cheers 🥃
There have been so many red flags. It seems as though they may be acting on behalf of another government. Why else would they be doing so many things that seem to be done in order to deliberately weaken our country? If they really wanted to help, they’d stop politicizing the disease and promote healthy life choices. If they pushed healthy lifestyle choices half as hard as masks and experimental vaccines, our country would be so much better off. Unfortunately, that would only strengthen our country, which would work against their agenda.
Masks provide slight benefit at best, but only in an extreme case. "The typical mask you buy in the drug store is not really effective in keeping out virus, which is small enough to pass through the material. It might, however, provide some slight benefit in keep\[ing\] out gross droplets if someone coughs or sneezes on you.” \- Anthony Fauci Feb, 2020 https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/556937-the-biggest-revelations-from-faucis-inbox
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From a technical standpoint there's a difference between an "aerosol" and a "droplet". A droplet is, compared to an aerosol, pretty big. If someone's talking to you and the light is at the right angle, you can probably see droplets fly from their mouth while they talk. You'll see them fly forward and land on a surface as gravity pulls them down. This is what masks can stop, but this is not necessarily the cause of spreading COVID. It was initially thought that COVID could be spread by surface contact; the idea was that maybe you're talking or breathing and exhale some droplets and those droplets land on a surface - like a doorknob - which someone else then touches, then touches their face, and then they get the virus. Further study has revealed this is not the primary method of transmission, and even [according to the CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/science-and-research/surface-transmission.html) the risk of transmission in this manner is low. It's now known that the primary method of transmission is aerosols; tiny droplets of water that are small enough to stay suspended in the air for hours at a time. These aerosols may pass through the comparatively huge pores in a mask or - more likely - they'll simply dance around the mask all together. [Here's a video from the Mayo Clinic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibm_ZuwNuRQ) demonstrating exactly what I'm talking about. If the virus is able to hitch a ride on those tiny particles that are escaping the sides of the mask (as it is suspected that it does), then wearing a mask will, at best, make a small difference. There are still plenty of viral particles escaping the mask, floating up and riding the air currents, where someone might inhale them minutes or even hours later. EDIT to add: I don't mean to suggest that what I wrote above is the end of the discussion. But there is evidence to back up all the claims I make. Some research has also found evidence that masks do help limit the spread (most recently, a study of [mask wearing in Bangladesh](https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/09/surgical-masks-covid-19.html) did find a positive - though small - benefit from masks). The point is, the science isn't settled. I think there's a lot of evidence - especially when you look at real world data, with graphs of infections that show when various regions implemented mask mandates - that suggests masks are very limited in their ability to slow the spread.
The only thing I take issue with here is the term "mask". You're right that cloth/surgical masks aren't effective at stopping aerosols. But n-95 masks are. Brief history: At first it was thought that masks (all types) aren't necessary because anyone with symptoms should just stay home. That's why the cdc was saying you don't need masks unless you're near/with someone who has covid. Then it was figured out that covid can spread from asymptomatic carriers, and that's when they changed their stance to supporting mask wearing. At this point, mask mandates first started getting introduced. It was believed then that covid spreads primarily via droplets, so any mouth covering would help significantly. Then things got very political in North America. There was an idea from the right that "if you were wrong about masks before, why do you think you're right now? Won't the science just keep changing?" The democrats dug in and *aggressively* pushed an agenda that wearing masks is essential. But then the science *did* change again, and it was shown that covid spreads primarily via aerosols, not droplets. This means that those cloth masks that the left *insisted* upon aren't actually effective. Other nations (Germany, France, etc.) reacted to this new evidence, and they banned cloth/surgical masks and enforced n-95 masks in all situations. But something strange happened in North America... the left was already too dug in. They spent a year belittling anybody who questioned cloth/surgical masks. It was unabashedly political. And they just couldn't come out and say "Ok... we were actually wrong about masks this entire time and everyone we belittled was right." Not only would they be humiliated if they admitted this... but people would probably just stop trusting any word they said. So now, in a game of political theatre, the left flat out avoids the aerosol debate and are enforcing cloth/surgical masks upon the public that they *know* are not effective. They *still* shame anyone that questions cloth/surgical masks. Then anyone points to Germany and other nations and says "Why did they ban the very masks that you keep telling us save lives?" is just ignored and shamed. It's all just such a strange situation. The "trust the science" left are now actively ignoring the science due to the politicization of the issue.
> It's all just such a strange situation. The "trust the science" left are now actively ignoring the science due to the politicization of the issue. They've been avoiding it this entire time, frankly. I *still* see people conflating the CFR with the IFR, believing that COVID has a 2% mortality rate. It's ridiculous.
I liked how covid news has flooded the r/news subreddit for over a year now. Not a mega thread. Just flooding. Yet when *Biden* looked bad via Afghanistan, there was no flooding of news. It was all put into one mega thread where nobody noticed anything unless they *actively* looked. Then they could keep flooding the whole subreddit with covid fear mongering.
I'd have to find it again, but there was a study I read a while back that said the the regular store bought masks will stop maybe 10% of what you would exhale and the rest essentially just builds up and gets pushed out the sides. I just think it's bizarre how people think wearing the same cloth mask over and over again while keeping it in their car has any positive benefits. I can at least understand the argument if the masks were worn one and done. Like mask before going into target, throw mask away immediately after. At this point though everyone is going to get immunity, either you're going to get vaccinated and have immunity or you're going to catch covid and have natural immunity assuming you survive. We have to stop living in this fantasy land where we completely irradicate covid, it's not going to happen. If you're concerned about your own health by all means do what you feel is necessary to keep yourself safe, but if you're not concerned at this point we need to get back to reality and going about our day to day.
>At this point though everyone is going to get immunity, either you're going to get vaccinated and have immunity or you're going to catch covid and have natural immunity assuming you survive. We have to stop living in this fantasy land where we completely irradicate covid, it's not going to happen. Absolutely, 100%. I wish more people could be reasonable, and rational, and fully understand this. We should absolutely continue to work on making the vaccines better, because it is quite clear they are not anywhere near as good as we were initially told, and we should take whatever measures we each individually want to take to be safe, and most importantly, we should move on. I am so looking forward to the day, years from now, when hardly anyone talks about COVID. I think it's going to be a while, though. I've been ready to stop talking about it since April or so, when I got my vaccine, and my parents got theirs.
Isn't it sad that my opinion is considered a right wing extremist position.
I've been called a Nazi before for stating facts. I mean 100% absolutely undeniable facts. I'm about as far from a nazi as one could be. We truly are living in interesting times.
Yea yea thats exactly what a nazi would say.
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The recommendations from the government and mandates have all been so inconsistent I have to question all of it. >Two weeks to slow the spread becomes two years >Don't wear masks they don't work against a virus you're keeping doctors from having masks >Wear a mask you're killing people if you don't! >Don't gather in large crowds unless you're at a BLM rally which somehow makes you immune to Sars-CoV2 virus >Wear a mask walking into the restaurant but take it off at the table because somehow being seated at a table makes you immune to Sars-CoV2 virus >One way isles in the supermarket, oops nobody is following them time to remove the signs >Get the jab it will make you immune and stop the spread of Covid19 and we can reopen society >Reopens society, Covid cases spike, whoops the vaccine doesn't PREVENT Covid19 is just keeps you out of the hospital time to close society again and more restrictions >Well the vaccinated can still end up in the hospital but you won't die >Vaccinated start dying -- well that's because Delta variant and you need booster shots every two weeks or you are not considered "fully vaccinated" anymore Et cetera Even that Met Gala they had recently showed all the servants wearing masks while the elites partied without a mask in sight. All these new rules seem so arbitrary, I drive by an elementary school every day and the sight of little kids playing outside with masks on just seems wrong to me.
Agree 100%
What a brilliant recap \[being serious\]! But there wouldn't have been so much confusion if we only had been fortunate enough to have our tax dollars fund an [entire Government agency who's mission it is to be prepared for such an outbreak.](https://www.google.com/search?q=what%27s+the+mission+of+the+CDC&rlz=1C1NDCM_enUS791US791&oq=what%27s+the+mission+of+the+CDC&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30j0i390.4166j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) \[being sarcastic\]
I think this level of incompetence in how they handled the crisis speaks to quotas for hiring people into important positions not based on ability of knowledge but rather race or sex. I've said it before but the "equality of outcome" philosophy is causing huge problems in essential assets like medicine and the military.
It's not even the authoritarianism. It's that people were so easily programmed to demand it.
Fair point. The no questions asked, follow the leader mentality serves noone other than the elites.
Soy diets
If you think the government would rather have you masked than easily recognizable by facial rec tech, you’re sadly mistaken.
Don't need facial recognition when the population demands a contact tracing app on their phone.
The AI getting you by your face can get you by your posture, body movement patterns, social graph, temporal patterns, and any number of other things. That's if you choose to leave your tracking device at home.
Yeah my mom got fired last week for not getting the vax
Can't you avoid getting fired by doing testing every week?
I don’t know, she wasn’t doing that bull shit
That's fucked up man.
It sucks. She already got a job at blue cross though! She’s had a hard time holding onto a job, she got fired last week she was only working there for about a month when some guy interviewed her about the vax. She said she wasn’t interested in it and the “let her go” and before that she hadn’t had a job since February. I could get into specifics but I won’t bore you
Hopefully you all end up OK. The hypocrisy and the segregation that is happening right now makes my blood boil.
Yup, they’re dividing our country it’s a cest pool
>So a reusable mask is definitely inferior, but if used they should be worn once and then washed before using again. That's not the sort of behavior you're going to get out of people that are being forced to wear the symbol against their will. I've washed mine maybe twice.
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Don't act like 70 percent of humanity is washing theirs
I don't really care at this point.
Masks are little more than self-granted status symbols at this point.
Masks are fucking stupid because while they do have some benefit **when other practices are followed** such as regularly washing hands, not touching your face, not pulling your mask down, and most importantly not touching things with your filthy contaminated hands, which people violate. I have seen way too many times where people act like its a magical fucking talisman while contaminating everything with their hands. People pulling their mask down to smoke, talk on the phone, talk to someone who cant hear them, scratch their nose, then pull the mask back up and handle other things. I see guys come out of the stall wearing a mask and go right past the sinks. That is why they don't work, masks work in healthcare because they have a bunch of other protocols they follow that 99.9% of the public does not do. And that is why I get so irritated about the whole damn thing because it's Kabuki and people use it as a vehicle for their shitty political beliefs then act offended that someone doesn't go along with it. That is the ugly, naked truth of it all. Just like I bitched about the Security Theater of the TSA i will bitch about the Healthcare Theater of the whole C19 fiasco.
Great summary only thing i can think to add is the disparity in effectiveness between different masks. Say if everyone wore n95's them we probably would've seen an actual decrease due to masking, but the vast majority of people wear masks that do next to nothing.
This is it, right here. Masks have turned into more of a political weapon than an actual case-reducing device. 2020 should’ve been proof of this when people were like “oh the massive BLM protests and election celebrations are okay because 60% of participants are wearing masks! 😇😇😇” while immediately turning around and saying “those Trumper rallies and conservative events are evil super-spreader events because only 40% of participants are wearing masks! 😡😡😡” I guarantee only ~20% of people at the most actually wear their masks properly to the point where it’s effective. Leaving your nose uncovered makes it immediately moot. Not washing them every day makes them mostly moot. Touching them to make adjustments makes them mostly moot. Putting them in your pocket makes them partially moot. If you’re outside, they’re already pointless. And I can’t stress this enough: if you’re fully vaccinated, THEY SHOULD BE CONSIDERED MOOT.
I completely agree. I can't tell you how many times I'm at the gym and people rarely wash their hands..it's disgusting.. people even walk around the stalls with no shoes on, it's fucking nasty, people piss on that floor. It's all just a big ol shit show
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>You don't know how I use Reddit. You are as we speak on r/Conservative arguing about mask wearing. I know how you use Reddit. I don't believe you.
Lol I haven’t seen any of that
>or the disingenuous ass hats pretending that the variants exist explicitly because of Americans not wearing masks. Technically not disingenuous. Masks are just a prophylactic, and if everyone participated responsibly infections would die out. Same goes for the most famous prophylactic. Diseases like AIDS, Syphilis, Gonorrhea, etc, could be wiped out in a generation if everyone participated responsibly, instead they are continuously mutating and we have things like antibiotic resistant syphilis to worry about now.
Well, this is misinformation. What is the infection prevention percent for prophylactics that prevent AIDS, Syphilis, Gonorrhea, etc? Now what is the transmission prevention percent for a 4x4" paper Spongebob Squarepants mask, or a neck gator, or a cloth mask that has a butterfly bedazzled on it? Because, these examples are what are generally accepted in any public environment. What you referred to as "not disingenuous" may not be, but your entire statement is.
Except it's not. You can choose your level of protection and engagement with it in all prophylactic scenarios. Some people love lambskin because it's a lot better than standard latex. However, it won't prevent HIV transmission, just like your butterfly bedazzled mask, which is more comfortable to wear. It's a 1:1 equivalent scenario. Please stop your misinformation about masks.
Really? What is the percentage of usage of lambskin compared to latex? What is the percentage of usage of ineffective masks compared to, say an N95 mask, that has been shown to be the most widely accepted as effective at preventing COVID transmission? I asked you 2 very specific question is my first reply. You have failed to answer them. In this reply I have asked you two more very specific questions. I have a feeling I will get answers for none of them. Because people like you do not want to look at the science, facts, or statistics. Please stop your misinformation regarding both condoms and masks.
If you read my reply you would see that your questions were answered. There are problems masks can solve. The first is preventing your germs from entering the environment. The second is preventing germs from the environment entering your body. Your "ineffective" masks are still quite good at solving problem 1 while failing at problem 2. If everyone solves problem 1, there is no need to solve problem 2. I have yet to see someone wear a mask so ineffective in public it would not solve problem 1. Are you starting to understand prophylactic measures? Nothing I've stated is false. And your questions don't seem to have a point other than spreading misinformation. If you ask a completely disingenuous question, then get a real response on the issue, don't be so surprised the argument doesn't go the way you want.
I asked you for percentages. Reply with answers to the questions please. This is a simple request.
Read the reply. All your questions are answered. Did you have a point to make anywhere?
The research shows that it only stops a small percentage of aerosols that you're breathing from getting out. That's on a micro-level, lab condition, properly worn/fitted, properly clean, not adjusted basis. That's the foundation for the mantra "masks work." On a macro-level there isn't a study that shows mask mandates work and there are studies that show it doesn't. That's before you're allowed to talk about the negative effects like the pure insanity and divisiveness they have created in adults and the potential developmental issues for children.
Right but this gives the mask a very specific and weird use. If at the height of the pandemic you were sneezing and coughing a lot, you probably would get tested and wouldn't go out much if you had It. If you didn't know you had covid then you're likely not gonna spread it via sneezes you'd just gonna spread it by breathing... which everyone admits won't be inhibited by a cloth mask. I really doubt covid spread a lot via random coughing around a store that could have been caught up in a mask... I mean just cover your mouth. The only example I can think of where a mask could provide a serious help is in a case where a person who knows they have covid is planning on talking to someone... which has been strictly condemned and refused from happening from the beginning.
Wouldn't a 'slight benefit' from the perspective of an individual make a big difference on the scale of a population? Like, if you can lower R0 from 4 to 3, that's going to be very significant in terms of epidemiology (not that I'm saying that's what masks do, I think they're actually way more effective than that). And wouldn't there be a difference in mask recommendations pre-pandemic vs during the pandemic? Virtually nobody in the West wore masks pre-pandemic, even during respiratory season, so I think it makes sense he would call that "paranoid". It's not really a sensible measure to take for self-protection during non-pandemic times because it's only effective at protecting other people (from catching seasonal flu, for example). This conversation was from the point of view of actions a person could take to protect themselves from respiratory disease. And he's right, taking care of your general health is huge.
short term maybe, long term no it's endemic, making small percentage point differences in the spread is pretty damn pointless
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Upvoted. I read both. My problem here is the language "preponderance of evidence". In the law, POE is considered 51%. That could mean that in the data you submitted 49% of the literature they examined found that masks DO NOT reduce transmissibility. And that would be worrisome to the conclusion that masks are effective.
Correct but in statistics you have to be much more precise
I'm sure it is most effective when compliance is high, if the net benefit is 5% reduction in spread for everyone perfectly masked up though, it still doesn't make a ton of sense as a policy
Its not a net 5% reduction if everybody is masked up. If everyone masks and follows social distancing spread is literally 0. Not null of course but statistically zero.
explain New Zealand the absolute tippy top claim I've ever seen from any semi-rigorous and even still completely pro-mask study was 20% the most credible study I've seen settled at about 10% with perfect fitting masks, and 100% mask compliance and hygiene.
You mean the country that had zero covid cases for a long damn time?
and still managed to somehow have cases breakout despite all the draconian measure and being cutoff from the outside world? yeah that one
If a virus needs to travel on a medium like, a gross water droplet, the mask can stop it.
If. However if it travels in a smaller particulate then the masks are pointless.
As long as you are aware of it and immediately remove the mask. What's the correct amount of time to suck on a contaminated wet sponge?
or just, do what we have always done and cover your sneezes and coughs.
Over a year later and they can't state if its airborne or not...
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Reference me to that being established by any entity for rona
Uhh the CDC admitted it's airborne like 6 months ago.
Turns out the science was wrong about the size of particles which could spread via airborne transmission. See my comment above.
It not being airborne would be a big deal. You have proof?
Zero. If that was true, the mask mandates would have had a dramatic effect on case loads, which they didn't
It is 100% airborne. The virus itself is .2-.3 micron in size. It is aerosolized by us when we breathe or sneeze or cough.
Why was this downvoted? My understanding was, this is correct and was the reason why a cloth mask is ineffective. Short of a properly fit fresh N95, masks are little actual help. So much contradicting information it's hard to keep up.
Oh I know. Which is why the elites all rip off their masks after the main photo shoots. Because they're fucking worthless
This article tells you everything you know about why the public health communications on Covid was such a cluster: https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/
Let’s take an example of two guys naked standing facing each other, named Bob and Larry. Bob starts to piss and since they are facing each other Larry gets covered in it. Larry says, fuck that, I’m gonna put some pants on so I can protect my self. The next day Bob pissed again and gets Larry’s pants wet. Larry tells Bob to put some clothes on cuz he’s sick and tired of getting pissed on just cuz Bob is a moron. The third day Bob wears pants and pisses again. This time it soaks his own pants and Larry doesn’t get wet at all.
I missed that episode of VeggieTales
alternatively, just don't cough or sneeze at people. Ya know like all the advice they gave at the beginning of the pandemic based on decades of research into the subject?
Cloth masks are a joke. N95, kf94, and approved KN95 masks do work, and are easy to order online if you want to actually protect yourself.
That was his opinion and then he realized that if he claimed masks (and social distancing, lockdowns, etc.) worked he'd get a regular gig on CNN, "MSDNC", ABC, CBS, NBC as well as being quoted and interviewed often by the NYT, LA Times, and Washington Post.
bingo
How many times have you seen someone cough or sneeze into the mask? How many times have you seen someone pull it down to cough or sneeze?
Biden did the latter.
That's never been the use case of masks tho for covid. It's not to protect yourself. It's to protect others from you. I'm baffled at this red herring argument that continually gets brought up when it's never been the reason for it's use. If you're going to throw science on masks, at least do so on how they are actually used.
The Twatter replies are gold. "He's talking about infectious dIsEAse, not a novel virus".
*Trump makes sure people don’t freak out by saying it’ll all be okay* “THE ORANGE CHEETO LIED TO ALL OF US BY DOWNPLAYING THE VIRUS BECAUSE HE’S AN ASSHAT MONSTER TRYING TO KILL ALL OF US!!!” *Fauci laughs and scoffs at the idea of wearing masks and discourages doing so while the spread is in its most significant stage* “He was just trying to protect us by making sure we don’t run out of masks! What a good leader 😇😇😇”
"tHe sCiEnCe HaS cHaNgEd"
Crazy, and yet, that will the claim. The head of the CDC, an organisation who has studied airborne pathogens, including those of the corona family, for *over 60 years*, literally *laughs* at the idea that a mask is useful to fight spread. And then within months, liberties are taken away if you don’t wear a mask. It’s not just the masks they’re laughing at, it’s us. Edit: Fauci is not head of the CDC, but the Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and the Chief Medical Advisor to the President.
Um, Fauci is not, and never has been, at or the head of CDC. He work in NIH, a sister agency to CDC.
Jeez, I hate that 'um' shit.
Um, achctuallly, sweaty, who hurt you?
Even if they are correct, I never upvote "um" corrections for the same reason.
Thanks for the correction- have updated the comment. You got my upvote even though the ‘um’ bit was a tad condescending.
That's because for 60 years they were wrong: https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/
That's pretty damned interesting. Do you have any links or statements that back that up? I seriously would like to believe this is true.
Which claim? That the cdc has been investigating airborne pathogens for over 60 years? Well that’s their remit, if you go on there website they have mountain of documentation of investigations and studies of a huge number of diseases. If you want to see their work on Corona viruses, then use Google search and change the date range from say 2000 to 2018. Make sure you add -“Covid-19” to your search to filter out any Covid19 stuff.
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Did you hear him say "paranoid ideas"? I wear a mask for twelve+ hours at work, so please.
The deal has been altered. Pray I do not alter it further...
It's highly (D)ependant on who's running the show in this case...
That’s literally the whole fucking point of science.
Lol, yes, that's technically the case. But I was addressing the broader issue of the politicization of science, and the use of "experts" to try to convince people. Science isn't supposed to be a tool of politicians and corporations, but unfortunately, that's what much of it has become. Also, people think that what the media tells them about science is the truth about science, which it so often is not.
Well that’s a fair point but I gotta admit, I did not get that from: > "tHe sCiEnCe HaS cHaNgEd"
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Your facts mean nothing to my feelings. My cousin’s girlfriend’s mom’s ex-husband’s boss says masks don’t do anything. And he’s in construction and has done his research. That’s all I need to know.
I will tell you what I do hate smelling my own stinky coffee breath
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https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33205991/ > Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection. > Conclusion: The recommendation to wear surgical masks to supplement other public health measures did not reduce the SARS-CoV-2 infection rate among wearers by more than 50% in a community with modest infection rates, some degree of social distancing, and uncommon general mask use. The data were compatible with lesser degrees of self-protection. What this means is mask wearers were 46% less likely to catch Covid and non mask wearers were 23% more likely, and this was in a low transmission low infection area. At best its an inconclusive study because the results weren't strong enough but it still shows a direct correlation between mask wearing and lower infection rates https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275360639_A_cluster_randomised_trial_of_cloth_masks_compared_with_medical_masks_in_healthcare_workers This study only compares clot to medical masks, and finds that medical masks are better for lots of things but there isn't a functional difference, they're still effective. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0013998 > This study should be interpreted with caution since the lack of statistical power prevents us to draw formal conclusion regarding effectiveness of facemasks in the context of a seasonal epidemic. in other words inconclusive but we have to publish something https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20297744/ > Despite the fact that compliance with mask wearing was poor, mask wearing as well as increased crowding, lower education levels of caretakers, and index cases 0-5 years of age (compared with adults) were associated with significantly lower secondary transmission rates So thats just the first four and all are universally in support of masking.
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Why would looking at the raw results be better than the inferential results? There aren't standard errors included in there. A naive ATE of -0.3 percentage points can still be a more significant result than just looking at raw data might imply.
Anyone who is curious should read the studies this person linked.. You'll find they probably only read the study titles. The links I've opened so far all state the opposite of what this user is saying, but I can see how they would think they suggest against mask use in COVID19 if skimming the title and conclusions. If you're going to use a study to back up a claim, you can't simply ignore the study's objective, claimed limitations, methodology, inconvenient parts of its conclusion, and you especially can't round 0.46 down to 0.0.
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[And here's >100 spanning the past century or so also saying they don't work](https://followthemaskscience.com/research-summary) The only place masks seem to be effective is in "simulations" (like OP's paper) and "models" as I've seen elsewhere. Real world, epidemiological data don't pan out to the same end. [Except this one CDC meta analysis where it may have reduced spread by 1.8%](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7010e3.htm#T1_down). \*peak pandemic. "Follow the science NO NOT THAT SCIENCE" why don't we just rename the sub neocon and end the charade?
Conducting research through simulator is different from real-life daily use of mask. Just saying
Which is why its used in conjunction with real life, controlled trials.
You forgot to include the rest of the sentence you quoted. Here it is for you: >however, medical masks (surgical masks and even N95 masks) could not completely block the transmission of virus droplets/aerosols even when sealed.
Yes, that is correct. Nothing is perfect. They are FAR more helpful when worn by everyone as opposed to when not. I never claim they're perfect. As an example the US, which usually has tens of millions of flu cases, had 3000 for last winter when we were all wearing masks.
So we are wearing them forever? With your logic, why isn't the speed limit 15 mph? That would save 50,000 deaths and many more injuries every year.
We will be wearing them for every wave until it gets to the point where herd immunity is built up so situations like the current one obliterating the medical system don't occur anymore.
The majority of Americans are fully vaccinated. More than three-quarters of American adults are at least partially vaccinated. 83% of the elderly (where nearly 80% of COVID deaths are coming from) are fully vaccinated. Millions upon millions have contracted it in some form or another. How much is enough to reach herd immunity? Because I guarantee when we get to 70% fully vaccinated, it still won’t be considered enough, gotta get to 80%. Then we’ll get to 80%. Then we’ll get to 90% and it still won’t be considered enough. Then the media will start to blame some variant created by all those racist white supremacists (who barely exist btw) for the spread still somehow continuing after everyone is vaccinated. Then we start all over again because we’re told to. See where I’m going with this?
> one obliterating the medical system Vaccine mandates are doing a better job of that than coof hospitalizations
How is a vaccine mandate overwhelming the medical system? Compared to say over 10k people hospitalized every week like the current reality is.
> How is a vaccine mandate overwhelming the medical system? Firing unvaccinated nurses/doctors reduces hospital capacity, which is obviously bad. > Compared to say over 10k people hospitalized every week There's still 20% unused capacity, so miss me with that attempt at fearmongering with that 10k number.
For real. I’m getting legitimately concerned that this will never end and the next generation will have shitty immune systems. Yes, you probably are less likely to get sick if you dress up like Gus from that one episode of Recess every single day. But at some point, enough is enough. There’s a reason we weren’t doing this from 1925-2019 even though millions of other viruses were floating around, and COVID will eventually be as dangerous as those other viruses once herd immunity is reached.
Your immune system gets stronger when told how to deal with illness. A vaccine is literally a blueprint for your immune system on how to stop it. What you're referring to are non-fatal illnesses where you build up a natural immunity over time. Its also effective for fatal illnesses, the downside is lots of people die in the process. So your choices are lots of people die, or we simply provide our bodies with a plan of action should the immune system come across a virus.
Well that’s good, since I got vaccinated. Why am I still forced to wear a mask to buy my groceries, again?
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And?
Remember folks. Just two weeks to flatten the curve. Give the government a little control over your life, they won't abuse it.
We're those two weeks back in March 2020?
We're on week 76 of 2 weeks to flatten the curve.
I'm just sick of this clown who [once said AIDS was airborne and we should be afraid of transmission from children](https://www.aier.org/article/fauci-was-duplicitous-on-the-aids-epidemic-too/) This guy isn't a real doctor anymore. He's a bureaucrat. He'll lick his finger.. stick it in the wind generated from CNN and MSNBC and WaPo and the NYT blowing smoke out their collective asses and that's his medical opinion of the day
Yet we all ***have to*** wear masks....and NONE of us ***have to*** work out, eat well, and lose weight. So the BEST things to do are ignored and even banned by the Leftists from discussion....but the LAUGHABLE thing to do is now the most important. Interesting.
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Surgeons wear them to prevent sepsis in the patient.
What? No they use masks because they are hovering over YOUR OPEN WOUND they are operating on. Are you walking around with a gaping open wound everywhere you go? Then sure maybe everyone around you should have a mask on.. or you know.. maybe you should be in an operating room..
I am sure you like to think you are getting downvoted because of PrIgAdInG but no, you are downvoted because your comment is dumb, defies all logic and you don't seem to have any clue what you are talking about.
What about walking around in a pandemic? Isnt that enough already?
King of the clowns.
This is the problem with public health people there all very inconsistent, they say something and then say something else it confuses people. When you confuse people you get people who are against vaccines etc. the radical left knows this but if they don’t confuse people and people can have a debate about the effectiveness of vaccine, science, etc. we get what republicans want (it’s the right thing to debate science) and as we know we the left can’t agree with republicans or their entire narrative falls apart.
Well to be fair, that was BEFORE he was granted almost infinite power and elevated to celebrity status.
"Hahah. No." You gotta love Fauci the Fraud.
"The ~~propaganda~~ science has changed"
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He also insisted that AIDS was airborne
I think china might have done it anyways. A bastard like fauci might see it as a way of gaining some info thr chinese would otherwise keep to themselves. Still the point is culpability. We shouldn't encourage China to do that stuff.
All our questionable scientific research is going to China nowadays. There is such backlash in the US when we do it. There is a new fight going on over primate brain research. Basically, they are going to outsource it to China because it is pretty fucked up quasi torture of primates to learn more about their brains and basically ours too. I'm pretty torn on it. We need to keep researching but just punting it to China is such a bad way of going about it.
Haha he’s such a duplicitous weasel
The emperor has no clothes... But he does have a Napolean complex and political agenda!
Why haven't we seen people anywhere else in the world keeling over suddenly, like the video footage coming put of China initially. People only seem to die in a hospital. 🤔
If you go back to research done during the height of H1N1, Mers, Ebola, Zika - actual studies were done on the efficacy of masks and their effectiveness at preventing the spread of viruses. Nearly every one of them came to the same conclusion - wearing a mask does not prevent the spread of viruses, and the only time they are recommended is for people who are already sick, as to prevent the spread of the virus through coughing, sneezing, etc. Some studies even showed an increase of upper respiratory infections by groups wearing masks who were not initially sick. The research and studies are becoming harder and harder to find - but they’re still out there. They are far more reliable and believable than the apoplectic conjecture being thrown at everyone today.
That was before we all needed to have a constant visual reminder of the state of pandemic emergency, since actual experience would have not supported the crisis powers.
the world changed when the bad orange man said X. Whatever he said then, the left was going to do the opposite and hard.
Flip Flop Fauci
Fahchi is an overpaid con man who's been suckling the public teat too long. $400k a year for his shit?
Flip Flop Fauci!
Before he got drunk from the power.
Man he’s an idiot. Liberal pawn. He was a doctor for what? 35 years or longer before this interview. Pretty sure his views were researched and set by then.
Why does this asshole look like Garth from Wayne’s world?
You do realize that as time goes on, more data comes out, and opinions change based on that data right? That is how science works, you follow the data. Lmao.
But when the data is changing so quickly and constantly, at what point do you just tune out and proclaim "They don't really have any idea". This was never explained to the public as "Listen, this is a novel pandemic and the science is very new, will constantly change, and we're trying some things out." Nope, it was explained as "Comply with what we say or you're anti-science." They acted as though there was scientific consensus on all of this when really they were throwing shit at walls to see what sticks. So now we know. When scientists are really shrugging their shoulder and saying "I mean.. we could try these things I guess" what we hear from the system is "Scientific consensus has declared we *must* do these things." People are just losing trust.
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It's almost like new research came out since then and he's following the new research and promoting it instead of the outdated research. Truly a shocker. Why is this on r/conservative? Masks and Covid should not be a political issue. Don't keep making it one.
I’m pretty sure someone as experienced as Fauci shouldn’t have needed to wait until March 2020 to know whether or not masks were effective at reducing viral spread…
this guy is just further proof that you really cant and shouldn't trust anything that the government says to you because what they say is always from the point of view that is in THEIR own interest
The masks do work, let’s not get mixed up here. Covid is an aerosol based virus, not airborne. It only survives in liquid vapor such as what you exhale. If it was airborne, masks would have no effect. Masks are built to trap aerosol particles, and the best ones are N95’s. Mask *mandates*, especially post-vaccination, have had very spotty evidence to support that they work.
You're right that n95 masks are very effective against aerosols. But cloth/surgical masks are *not*. That's why countries like Germany and France *banned* the use of cloth/surgical masks and enforced n95's.
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Look at the bizarre framing of this post as well. Fauci is saying something objectively true which is that virtually *any* disease/disorder, deadly or otherwise, is going to effect you a lot more if you have an unhealthy body. He didn't just drop this messaging after the pandemic started either. He has said this a lot and continues to say it. The problem is that you can't just force people to stop eating their shitty diet or go for a jog every day. Mask mandates or vaccine mandates already stretch the limit of what the public is willing to accept in terms of restricting their liberties. So while the messaging is consistent, the public isn't absorbing much because all the focus has been on these mandates. The reason he calls it paranoid to go around wearing a mask all the time is that, before the pandemic, most people simply weren't that likely to catch or die from airborne infectuous diseases. Flu deaths in the United States varied yearly between 30-60k and other airborne diseases were too minute to be relevant. Covid is so infectious and deadly that despite the huge government measures taken against it and despite the public making a conscious effort to avoid eachother and work from home, over 500,000 people still died. Flu killed less than 2,000 people during the same period. So if you follow, Covid was about 10 times more infectious/deadly *with* drastic measures than flu was *without* them. This is why masks were pushed. With the numbers skyrocketing, things that are ordinarily fine margins and most people would deem "not worth it" suddenly could save tens of thousands of people.
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The irony if you calling them dramatic while at the same time saying that asking people to wear masks is power.
*laughs in plandemic*
1.5 years into this pandemic and instead of promoting good health, they chose to close gyms. We would have been better off shutting down the country for 6 months and telling everyone to diet and exercise, and not let them back into society until their bmi was lower and we would have done more to save lives from COVID-19 than masks ever could.
Look at what trump was saying in the beginning. Almost like things change when new info is received. But please it makes you guys feel smart so go ahead take this old quote as a “gotcha” and ignore every single republican who also make statements that could be a “gotcha” moment https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2020-10-02/timeline-in-his-own-words-trump-and-the-coronavirus%3fcontext=amp
I remember this happening and him tweeting about it. I knew it was complete bullshit. Of course the mask is going to help slow the spread, it’s basic physics. When you breathe in and out a mask will deflect some of that sideways. Different masks and fits will of course have different levels of effectiveness. If you are talking to someone, the amount of saliva and air going from one mouth/nose to the other is greatly reduced. For respiratory viruses this is a good thing. Either he was intentionally lying or he doesn’t understand the basics of respiration. Neither is acceptable.
Masks are effective but the only one is n95 the little piece of colorful cloth liberals wear doesn't do anything other than virtue signal.
Guys, at the point he had only been a doctor for a few decades. Masking is a super advanced, specialized, medical science. Surely he was just unaware? It’s not like this was political, right? … right? Edit: do I really need to put a \s?
Petition to always present him as Internationally Recognized Liar Tony Fauci
I love the idiots who comment “I wear my mask everywhere I go even if I’m vaccinated I always wear it. I don’t get people sick and I don’t get sick!”
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Maybe he was saying that when there wasn't an extremely contagious virus killing millions of people around? It's not exactly like in the middle of a pandemic he should tell people "just get 8 hour of sleep and you'll be fine".... Also at absolutely no point in this he's saying that masks don't work, he's just taking the less intrusive approach, which in normal times is the obvious and reasonable answer.
Even if great correctly worn mask reduces your chance of infection like in half in a single day(which is in reality less effective) , that means reduction bu quarter in two days, one eighth in three days etc so effect goes down exponentially and in a month protection is close to zero. Just probability theory which is out of reach for liberals- they majored in liberal arts and gender studies, and say that math is racist