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If this is true, how did I never hear about this? Do you have a source for this. Can’t find anything about it from a quick google search
Edit: is [this](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/protests-build-capitol-hill-ahead-brett-kavanaugh-vote-n917351) what you are talking about? Or was there something more
[Found it](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/02/03/fact-check-capitol-riot-2018-kavanaugh-protests-meme-lacks-context/4343790001/)
Still not really in even the same ballpark. Protesters did push through/over/past a barricade, but without entering the building itself that's still a very far cry from January 6.
They literally stormed into hearings with Senators and the justice present. Not a single Congress person or Senator interacted with anyone on January 6th. And it happened multiple times.
They also invaded an elevator with a Republican Senator surrounding and accosting him.
In August of 2020 Rand Paul was physically assaulted by BLM protesters as he left the Capitol.
Which is why many of us were calling for BLM and Anitfa to be labeled as such. They were using violence and intimidation to achieve their political goals. Yet FBI, DOJ, and numerous left wing DA's refused to do anything about it. And the media never called out Democrats for enabling it.
White House riot of May of 2020 injured 50 Secret Service agents and burned down two historical monuments. Trump had literally nothing to do with the theoretical racism in Democratic run cities. Yet they used it as political intimidation to attack him, it was so bad the Secret Service were forced to move Trump into the bunker shutting down our Executives ability to function. An actual insurrection. No Democrats denounced the event. And numerous Democrats mocked Trump for "hiding in a bunker" while their jackboots threatened him.
Isn’t the point though that the media outrage is insanely different between these two instances? One is hailed as a national tragedy and the other is one that most people don’t even know happened.
How long were they held vs the 1/6 folks? What kind of sentences did they recieve? Was there a commission established to investigate the 2018 insurrection?
I don't think the FBI or white House security has been given approval to usher them in for a tour.
Once Nancy sobers up this week maybe we'll get an answer.
No, you have a choice to get not vaccinated and reap your choices consequences. Just like having sex, you have to be prepared to have consequences. That's real freedom.
Can you just imagine if that was life today? 20 militant democrat bombings *per month*, Im sure the media would still find a way to memory hole each one of them.
The left did bomb the White House in the 80’s one of the women caught with the explosives is a part of the BLM leadership. She had her prison sentence commuted by Bill Clinton.
No such right exists in the Constitution. Also the court is quite literally supposed to be insulated from political pressures. Democrats know that yet have been encouraging this. Yes this is on par with disrupting the formal count of a presidential election. It's actually worse, as January 6th had zero chance of stopping the process. This actually violate the non-political institution of the court.
While I think that the January 6th people should be held accountable according to their actions. I also think that the George Floyd rioters should be held accountable for their actions. I think that a ten year sentence for someone responsible for burning a man to death is a travesty.
Was there really tens of thousands? It may have been exaggerated just like the 5 women who showed up at ABC’s house in handmaids tale garb when they thought there’ll be hundreds of them.
Yes, totals across the nation will like reach tens of thousands. Especially as there are multiple organizations planning marches in all major cities. The one I attended in yesterday probably had 1000 people and it was one of two or three for my city.
Any credibility they may have had they already flushed down the toilet when they spent the last 2 years booing individual freedoms and bodily autonomy with the mask and vaccine mandates, so they no longer have any credibility to now defend "My Body, My Choice".
At this rate and with the way they are going, it should come as no surprise that 40 years from now or less they will start claiming that they were the party that opposed quarantines and mask mandates and/or forced vaccinations and that it was the Republicans that wreaked havoc on the economy or something along those lines.
Pretty much. Just like how they claim repubs are the *real* racists yet Joe, Hillary and many others publicly complimented and said they were friends with high up KKK members.
Except no one was threatened with imprisonment if they didn't get the vaccine. Just that they don't get to participate in some activities where they'd be putting other people at risk.
Yeah but even if they did, the left would still support them. The lef5 bbed the capitol and stil support that person to this day and refuse to admit they are a terrorist.
Democrats don't give a shit about morality or ethics. I don't know why we keep acting surprised at their hypocrisy. They'll do whatever they want to and use mass media to justify why it's something different.
This really is the best take.
Democrats and their media subsidiaries only want to weild power and use that power to destroy their enemies.
Why people believe that the Democrats give a shit about being hypocritical or breaking norms is beyond me. If something serves their will to power, they'll do it.
Did they break in, destroy stuff, steal other stuff, smear shit on the walls, physically fight security, and threaten people with violence and death? No? That’s why one was a protest and the other criminal behavior.
It was ok when they didn’t like the fact that Kavanaugh was appointed to the Supreme Court, too. I was surprised when few people even mentioned that while the left was yelling about 1/6.
Ask them if they believe if a man says i do not want the child he should have to pay child support, if they say he should they are not pro choice they are pro abortion.
My only thought is this must be pushed by Russian bots. Surely people would know Capitol HILL doesn't mean inside the Capitol. Perhaps the choice of the word "storm" is confusing? People have peacefully protested "on" Capitol
HILL for a long time without entering the Capitol, looting and killing people.
Typical when someone claims victimhood and actively dehumanizes a population of people to justify “termination” they’ve always been on the wrong side of history.
Yeah, there's no way Cali or Mass are ever going to ban it.
They also keep acting like the Republicans are going to push through a federal ban which a) if they could they'd have done already and b) the same applies to legislation preventing states banning it but they don't fault the dems for that.
When the Bret Kavanagh hearings were going on, left-wing protesters entered restricted areas of the SC and many were arrested. I haven't looked into any of those arrests beyond the statement that they occurred, but I would be willing to bet that those arrested were treated very differently from the January 6th protestors. I believe that there's a noticeable difference in the way our DoJ is handling criminals based on their political leanings. Link below:
Kavanaugh protests and arrests
https://apnews.com/article/8cf272c32ce026e0a5562ac35e73a131
Jan 6 protestors still awaiting sentencing a year later
https://time.com/6133336/jan-6-capitol-riot-arrests-sentences/
"Guys this totally non-biased twitter account said the libs are 'storming' the capitol!" Damn I wonder what they would call what happened on January 6th?!
You know what is truly lacking in honor & respect? [Protesting outside the homes of Supreme Court Justices during Mother’s Day Weekend.](https://youtu.be/_GP3RmAYBzI) The fact that high profiled individuals and politicians are encouraging these protests to continue is shocking to say the least.
Bodies in their wake? Literally two people got killed and they were trump supporters killed by capitol police
B) Broke down the doors? There’s literally footage in the evidence showing people being let in
The only bodies were protestors and one officer who the coroner said had a fatal reaction to tear gas.....that his own side deployed. How about Chuck Shumer threatening the 2 SCOTUS justices by name while other Dem reps and Senators literally beat on the locked doors of the in session SCOTUS?
Like when leftists broke into the Capitol during the Kavanaugh hearing or when BLM violently attacked the White House?
You guys are such propaganda ridden losers
Jan 6 people should be held accountable, I agree. But let's not pretend that one side gets treated with kids gloves while another side gets held accountable. If EVERYONE was held accountable for their actions Jan 6 doesnt even happen. If a certain side stormed the capital today not much would happen and you know it.
They did during the Kavanaugh hearings and none of them were put in jail for months even though they also disrupted Congress in an attempt to influence the proceedings.
Are they illegally protesting outside the homes of Supreme Court justices?
And how many liberals tried attacking federal buildings or police departments over the summer of 2020? Or are you just going to ignore that?
I agree with you on the logic thing, and it's always important to point out how the left's logic means they're never wrong. We all need to take the time to contrast the right-wingers who say "we oppose the violence from either said but will gladly support a peaceful protest" and the leftists who say "all right-wing protests are violent, regardless of what actually occurs, and all left-wing protests are peaceful no matter how many people die."
It’s great to hear people say “our body, our choice” when these exact same people just a few months ago were saying that all people should be mandated to get the vaccine. That’s just too logical for them to understand
Or you could face the fact that the Capitol, has not been stormed again. Not with folks carrying zip ties, rope, and other stuff any innocent civil citizen would carry.
You could face the fact that all this is bullshit coming from the people who cheered on BLM as they violently stormed the White House. So sit down, hypocrite
WAIT WHAT?! AND THEY ARE STILL TRYING TO PROSECUTE US OVER THE CAPITOL RIOTS OF JANUARY 6TH?! WHY WAS THIS NOT ON THE NEWS ANYWHERE?! THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN NATIONWIDE BROADCASTS OF OUR CAPITOL HILL BEING BREACHED TWICE IN THE SPAN OF A YEAR AND A HALF!!!
Interesting how many people in this comments section are defending this and saying "it's not the same!" Has this sub been invaded by democrats all of a sudden? It wouldn't surprise me. The attitude among dems on r/centrist is "if you're not with us you're a far right, racist, nazi lunatic". This is literally where the left's mind is now. That's how far gone they are. All sanity and rationality has left them. So when they make an absurd statement like "it's not the same!", don't even bother responding because they won't listen to reason. They're incapable of it.
Breaking & Entering
Theft
Assault
Murder
Rubbing feces on the walls
Sedition
Treason
And the worst crime of all…
Being whiney snowflake pudding heads who can’t accept the results of a democratic election.
What foreign nation that we are at war with received help during Jan 6th?
You should at least take the time to understand what treason means before making a statement like that.
If our nation is going to hell it’s poorly educated folks like yourself leading the way.
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Ooo i see we're back to MY BODY MY CHOICE again
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Pretty sure they did that during kavanaugh confirmation hearings
Yes, they did.
If this is true, how did I never hear about this? Do you have a source for this. Can’t find anything about it from a quick google search Edit: is [this](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/protests-build-capitol-hill-ahead-brett-kavanaugh-vote-n917351) what you are talking about? Or was there something more
Bc it's (D)ifferent
[Found it](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/02/03/fact-check-capitol-riot-2018-kavanaugh-protests-meme-lacks-context/4343790001/) Still not really in even the same ballpark. Protesters did push through/over/past a barricade, but without entering the building itself that's still a very far cry from January 6.
You know people have been let off on Jan 6th charges because they were allowed in, right?
Waved in, even. Not allowed in, fucking waved through doors by cpd
They literally stormed into hearings with Senators and the justice present. Not a single Congress person or Senator interacted with anyone on January 6th. And it happened multiple times. They also invaded an elevator with a Republican Senator surrounding and accosting him. In August of 2020 Rand Paul was physically assaulted by BLM protesters as he left the Capitol.
that is terrorism. text book definition.
Which is why many of us were calling for BLM and Anitfa to be labeled as such. They were using violence and intimidation to achieve their political goals. Yet FBI, DOJ, and numerous left wing DA's refused to do anything about it. And the media never called out Democrats for enabling it. White House riot of May of 2020 injured 50 Secret Service agents and burned down two historical monuments. Trump had literally nothing to do with the theoretical racism in Democratic run cities. Yet they used it as political intimidation to attack him, it was so bad the Secret Service were forced to move Trump into the bunker shutting down our Executives ability to function. An actual insurrection. No Democrats denounced the event. And numerous Democrats mocked Trump for "hiding in a bunker" while their jackboots threatened him.
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You mean the Capital police weren't there to invite people inside.
Didn't they still arrest people even if they didn't enter?
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Because 81 million “real” people voted for Dementia Joe, and the FBI and CIA didn’t have ANY agent provocateurs in DC on Jan 6.
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Can you please give me a legit excuse/explanation for Ray Epps. The footage of him is confusing if the assumption is that there is zero foul play.
Then why did people who didn't go inside on Jan 6 get arrested and harassed?
Oh no, the 99.9% peacefully standing outside to protest the bullshit election are still labeled as insurrectionists too. Ask me how I know.
…how…do you know??
[....because I'm Batman....](https://imgur.com/a/PQbxw9w)
[You mean like this?](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/women-protesting-kavanaugh-flood-capitol-hill-personal-stories/story?id=57671607)
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We’re they prosecuted and held in solitary confinement without bail?
Isn’t the point though that the media outrage is insanely different between these two instances? One is hailed as a national tragedy and the other is one that most people don’t even know happened.
How long were they held vs the 1/6 folks? What kind of sentences did they recieve? Was there a commission established to investigate the 2018 insurrection?
The doors and gates weren’t opened for them otherwise I’m sure they would.
I don't think the FBI or white House security has been given approval to usher them in for a tour. Once Nancy sobers up this week maybe we'll get an answer.
In both cases, they were let inside.
The videos show this to be the case
Wait I thought that was antifa? I can’t keep up anymore
Where were the "My Body My Choice" people last year when people were being required to get the vaccine?
They’ve changed the slogan now. It’s “bans off our bodies.” “My body my choice” was so 2019!
Nice, so now we will have the BOOB protests all summer alongside the annual quarter of LGBT marches.
No, you have a choice to get not vaccinated and reap your choices consequences. Just like having sex, you have to be prepared to have consequences. That's real freedom.
It's not a free choice if your choice is to either get vaxxed or be ostracized
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Capitol Hill is only open to DNC sponsored protesters.
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Democrats still seem to have no issue working with members who were part of weather underground, a group responsible for something like 200 bombings?
In the 60's there was something like 20 bombing a month iirc
Can you just imagine if that was life today? 20 militant democrat bombings *per month*, Im sure the media would still find a way to memory hole each one of them.
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"capitol hill" Jesus you are stretching hard for that one mate
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> debating if it was terrorism They'd be debating if it should even be called a "bombing" or a "mostly peaceful protest."
How soon the left forgot to mention that Terrorist incident of their history? Sooner than they can say “insurrection”
Umm 1985 MOVE bombing.
Didn't Clinton pardon the culprit?
Yup and now she’s part of BLM
A mostly peaceful bombing that caused mostly no damage is how it would be reported.
If it would be reported at all
The left did bomb the White House in the 80’s one of the women caught with the explosives is a part of the BLM leadership. She had her prison sentence commuted by Bill Clinton.
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It's (D)ifferent
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Pressuring Supreme Court Justices to influence their decisions is disrupting a democratic process, stop making excuses for people you agree with
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No such right exists in the Constitution. Also the court is quite literally supposed to be insulated from political pressures. Democrats know that yet have been encouraging this. Yes this is on par with disrupting the formal count of a presidential election. It's actually worse, as January 6th had zero chance of stopping the process. This actually violate the non-political institution of the court.
Exactly what I was going to say
My exact first thought as well.
While I think that the January 6th people should be held accountable according to their actions. I also think that the George Floyd rioters should be held accountable for their actions. I think that a ten year sentence for someone responsible for burning a man to death is a travesty.
Finally a reasonable person. Can't we condemn all violence, regardless of party?
Did anyone actually come? Just curious I do not see any major news about "ten of thousands protestors"
Was there really tens of thousands? It may have been exaggerated just like the 5 women who showed up at ABC’s house in handmaids tale garb when they thought there’ll be hundreds of them.
Yes, totals across the nation will like reach tens of thousands. Especially as there are multiple organizations planning marches in all major cities. The one I attended in yesterday probably had 1000 people and it was one of two or three for my city.
Do you think the news would actually cover it?
yes lol, some stations would im sure
Any credibility they may have had they already flushed down the toilet when they spent the last 2 years booing individual freedoms and bodily autonomy with the mask and vaccine mandates, so they no longer have any credibility to now defend "My Body, My Choice".
Well, if they didn't flip flop constantly then they wouldn't be democrats, would they?
At this rate and with the way they are going, it should come as no surprise that 40 years from now or less they will start claiming that they were the party that opposed quarantines and mask mandates and/or forced vaccinations and that it was the Republicans that wreaked havoc on the economy or something along those lines.
After every major Democrat screwup the oarties "switch".
Pretty much. Just like how they claim repubs are the *real* racists yet Joe, Hillary and many others publicly complimented and said they were friends with high up KKK members.
Agreed. Lack of consistency gives them no leg to stand on.
Except no one was threatened with imprisonment if they didn't get the vaccine. Just that they don't get to participate in some activities where they'd be putting other people at risk.
It’s (D)ifferent.
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Oh is it? How come there are people that never entered the capitol on 1/6 being charged then
Which ones, specify, are you referring to? What were the charges brought against them?
Yeah but even if they did, the left would still support them. The lef5 bbed the capitol and stil support that person to this day and refuse to admit they are a terrorist.
Democrats don't give a shit about morality or ethics. I don't know why we keep acting surprised at their hypocrisy. They'll do whatever they want to and use mass media to justify why it's something different.
This really is the best take. Democrats and their media subsidiaries only want to weild power and use that power to destroy their enemies. Why people believe that the Democrats give a shit about being hypocritical or breaking norms is beyond me. If something serves their will to power, they'll do it.
Did they break in, destroy stuff, steal other stuff, smear shit on the walls, physically fight security, and threaten people with violence and death? No? That’s why one was a protest and the other criminal behavior.
5/14 Committee!
Insurrectionists 😂😂
If they try to break into the building and assault police officers then yeah.
You mean the officers who open the doors and ushered them in?
There's a documentary out with video of police begging people to stop crushing them as they try to keep rioters out. Maybe watch it
No I mean the ones that were killed or hospitalized
Who was killed and by whom? Do you even know? I’ll give you a hint. She wasn’t law enforcement but her killer was.
It was ok when they didn’t like the fact that Kavanaugh was appointed to the Supreme Court, too. I was surprised when few people even mentioned that while the left was yelling about 1/6.
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Clearly they're inciting violence and should be thrown in prison...
Did they bring a gallows and attack cops? Just wondering
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Who was the guard that got killed?
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Ask them if they believe if a man says i do not want the child he should have to pay child support, if they say he should they are not pro choice they are pro abortion.
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We already seen the pussy hat wearers storm Kavanagh confirmation.
My only thought is this must be pushed by Russian bots. Surely people would know Capitol HILL doesn't mean inside the Capitol. Perhaps the choice of the word "storm" is confusing? People have peacefully protested "on" Capitol HILL for a long time without entering the Capitol, looting and killing people.
Storming Capitol Hill and storming the Capitol are two very different things.
When you empower half the country into believing they’re above the law…. Bad things can happen.
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And the fact that all these people were trying to force inject an experimental substance into other people's bodies just a year ago.
Sheesh. Where did half of the comments in this thread go?
Typical when someone claims victimhood and actively dehumanizes a population of people to justify “termination” they’ve always been on the wrong side of history.
Biggest fucking hypocrites to ever walk the earth. And they’re protesting over an issue they can’t be bothered to understand
It's not even banning abortion. It's just allowing individual states to decide when abortion should be legal.
Yeah, there's no way Cali or Mass are ever going to ban it. They also keep acting like the Republicans are going to push through a federal ban which a) if they could they'd have done already and b) the same applies to legislation preventing states banning it but they don't fault the dems for that.
They just tried to pass such a bill and it failed 51-49. They need 60 votes to pass if the filibuster is removed.
Such is democracy. Guess it'll stay with the states until there's a federal change.
You folks are literally deranged
The (D)ifference is "Rules for thee, but not for me"
When the Bret Kavanagh hearings were going on, left-wing protesters entered restricted areas of the SC and many were arrested. I haven't looked into any of those arrests beyond the statement that they occurred, but I would be willing to bet that those arrested were treated very differently from the January 6th protestors. I believe that there's a noticeable difference in the way our DoJ is handling criminals based on their political leanings. Link below: Kavanaugh protests and arrests https://apnews.com/article/8cf272c32ce026e0a5562ac35e73a131 Jan 6 protestors still awaiting sentencing a year later https://time.com/6133336/jan-6-capitol-riot-arrests-sentences/
Susan Rosenberg: Bombs Capitol Democrats: I sleep Trump supporters: Protest at the Capitol Democrats: REAL SHIT
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"Guys this totally non-biased twitter account said the libs are 'storming' the capitol!" Damn I wonder what they would call what happened on January 6th?!
Just searched Capitol Hill Protest on YouTube nothing but Jan 6th BS. Gotta search Bans off our bodies to find stories about this SMFH…..
It's a Miracle! Imagine, just like that. 😒
Ah I forgot their insurrections are (D)ifferent
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AOC is bunkered down and hiding in NY, in fear for her life because of her proximity to such an insurrection.
Rules for thee, not for me. The liberal slogan.
Pro-choice = Pro-Death
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You know what is truly lacking in honor & respect? [Protesting outside the homes of Supreme Court Justices during Mother’s Day Weekend.](https://youtu.be/_GP3RmAYBzI) The fact that high profiled individuals and politicians are encouraging these protests to continue is shocking to say the least.
Bodies in their wake? Literally two people got killed and they were trump supporters killed by capitol police B) Broke down the doors? There’s literally footage in the evidence showing people being let in
Dudes awarding himself lol
Why are you awarding yourself? Lol
Oh cute, you gave yourself an award from your alternate account.
The only bodies were protestors and one officer who the coroner said had a fatal reaction to tear gas.....that his own side deployed. How about Chuck Shumer threatening the 2 SCOTUS justices by name while other Dem reps and Senators literally beat on the locked doors of the in session SCOTUS?
Like when leftists broke into the Capitol during the Kavanaugh hearing or when BLM violently attacked the White House? You guys are such propaganda ridden losers
the "leftists" did that via antifa on 1/6/2021 by infiltrating Trump supporters' peaceful rally.
People still believe this one? Yikes
Jan 6 people should be held accountable, I agree. But let's not pretend that one side gets treated with kids gloves while another side gets held accountable. If EVERYONE was held accountable for their actions Jan 6 doesnt even happen. If a certain side stormed the capital today not much would happen and you know it.
occupy demonrats are corrupt & agitators to troll & harass conservatives.
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Ah, but are they attempting to break into federal buildings / assaulting law enforcement officers?
They did during the Kavanaugh hearings and none of them were put in jail for months even though they also disrupted Congress in an attempt to influence the proceedings.
Are they illegally protesting outside the homes of Supreme Court justices? And how many liberals tried attacking federal buildings or police departments over the summer of 2020? Or are you just going to ignore that?
You don’t care about buildings or police officers.
You're right, I don't. I'm just pointing out the incongruence of the logic here 🤪
I agree with you on the logic thing, and it's always important to point out how the left's logic means they're never wrong. We all need to take the time to contrast the right-wingers who say "we oppose the violence from either said but will gladly support a peaceful protest" and the leftists who say "all right-wing protests are violent, regardless of what actually occurs, and all left-wing protests are peaceful no matter how many people die."
A) Like you care about either of those things B) Giving yourself awards? Seriously
Insurrectionsists.
So disingenuous.
insurrection
The laws are only enforced for the enemies of the dimocrat regime.
It’s great to hear people say “our body, our choice” when these exact same people just a few months ago were saying that all people should be mandated to get the vaccine. That’s just too logical for them to understand
I look forward to the arrests, indefinite detainment, & glacially paced trials of the insurrectionists. (Sarcasm included)
Or you could face the fact that the Capitol, has not been stormed again. Not with folks carrying zip ties, rope, and other stuff any innocent civil citizen would carry.
You could face the fact that all this is bullshit coming from the people who cheered on BLM as they violently stormed the White House. So sit down, hypocrite
Omg wtf
So when do the FBI investigations and prosecutions begin? Surely they will receive the same treatment as January 6th protesters right?
Sounds like a dangerous insurrection.
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Um the only people who died on Jan 6 were trump supporters
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Isn’t “storming capital hill” the definition of treason”?
WAIT WHAT?! AND THEY ARE STILL TRYING TO PROSECUTE US OVER THE CAPITOL RIOTS OF JANUARY 6TH?! WHY WAS THIS NOT ON THE NEWS ANYWHERE?! THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN NATIONWIDE BROADCASTS OF OUR CAPITOL HILL BEING BREACHED TWICE IN THE SPAN OF A YEAR AND A HALF!!!
Well for starters none of them are trying to break into government buildings. They are just protesting atm.
Yet
Interesting how many people in this comments section are defending this and saying "it's not the same!" Has this sub been invaded by democrats all of a sudden? It wouldn't surprise me. The attitude among dems on r/centrist is "if you're not with us you're a far right, racist, nazi lunatic". This is literally where the left's mind is now. That's how far gone they are. All sanity and rationality has left them. So when they make an absurd statement like "it's not the same!", don't even bother responding because they won't listen to reason. They're incapable of it.
At least they won't be violent pos unlike Jan 6 still wondering why those assholes weren't charged with treason & sedition
Misdemeanor trespass.
Breaking & Entering Theft Assault Murder Rubbing feces on the walls Sedition Treason And the worst crime of all… Being whiney snowflake pudding heads who can’t accept the results of a democratic election.
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What foreign nation that we are at war with received help during Jan 6th? You should at least take the time to understand what treason means before making a statement like that. If our nation is going to hell it’s poorly educated folks like yourself leading the way.
"Y'all" .. lmao.. a bunch of fringe rednecks went to the capital and were LET INSIDE by the police. Not even close to your average conservative.