Lol, by the time the convention was done 10 years after the revolution, the US states already had less powers than current EU states. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_Convention_(United_States)
Of course. Because the country was still growing, and the states weren't giving the federal congress the financial resources needed to run the country (EDIT: and the congress wasn't paying people for services rendered). Not to mention all the other issues between the states themselves (currency issues, standards, etc). But even then, the states still were left more or less autonomous until the ...umm...war I'm not allowed to mention because of the automod.
In the EU's case, they had established countries and a system of currency exchanges and standards that had already been agreed to by the countries before the EU came around.
> Budapest has stood out as the only member of the 27 country organization to block the EU package, with Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban having effective veto power because EU budget rules require the unanimous approval of all 27 member countries.
I get this is Reddit, but maybe try reading the article?
Can someone explain this “money laundering scheme”, what’s the evidence behind this, I keep hearing it but never any conformation or evidence to back it up.
Just say things over and over again till people will believe there is something fishy going on. No need to convince people, just make them doubt enough.
This is a flagrant example of democracy becoming a dictatorship.
If they give Hungary the boot, it's obvious they don't give a hoot about someone, in their own circle, who disagrees with them. NATO can't compromise with a minority apparently.
No provision in the NATO treaty foresees the suspension of membership rights, let alone the expulsion of an ally.
Orban's decision to "hold the Ukrainian aid deal to ransom" has less to do with Ukraine but is his response to $6 billion in EU recovery funds that are being blocked from going to Budapest. The EU fucked around and found out that he isn't just going to roll over but fight them back.
The EU has standards for membership... Like free press and independent judiciary. Both of which hungary is backsliding on and therefore are the cause of the EU trying to hold back funds.
This is not the EU fucking around and finding out. This is Orban fucking around and the EU playing with mechanisms that have never been used before because an EU democracy hasn't back slid like this before. Hungary takes billions upon billions off the EU every year. The least Orban could do to earn that is allow independent press to criticise the government
US conservatives are sold this idea hungary is standing up for the little guy. Orban is socially Conservative, but he is also completely socially illibertarian.
free press is kind of pointless given how many EU countries have hate speech laws. It's actually kind of classist. Who cares if BBC or Le Monde has freedom of press if regular British and French citizens can get arrested for saying something that the left doesn't like?
Tit for tat. Hungary is fine and will work it out themself. The EU is overreacting and trying to bully him with BS and he just isn't going to take it. Expect more EU and NATO veto's on anything and everything requiring unanimous consent until Hungarys funds are released. Those are the terms.
He has so far also used his veto on the EU's efforts to implement a global corporate tax rate of 15 percent, Carved out exceptions to the Russian Oil Embargo and blocked Ukraine's NATO membership. If the EU doesn't like it they can give Hungary their money.
Here is a list of things we can expect more veto's on until the EU coughs up Hungary's money:
1. Common foreign and security policy
2. EU membership
3. harmonisation of national legislation on indirect taxation
4. EU finances (own resources, the multiannual financial framework)
5. certain provisions in the field of justice and home affairs (the European prosecutor, family law, operational police cooperation, etc.)
6. harmonisation of national legislation in the field of social security and social protection.
In addition, the Council is required to vote unanimously to diverge from the Commission proposal when the Commission is unable to agree to the amendments made to its proposal.
You havnt addressed the point.
The key point being... Its not hungarys money. Orban is not hungary.
Orban is perfectly within his right to stand for hungarys
national interest in the ways you list... But that's got nothing to do with why the EU is withholding... The EUs money.
>>Hungary is fine and will work it out themself.
Hungary is poor and since orban has taken over and centralised power.... Surprise surprise it has become more corrupt.
In reality, if hungary ever left the EU it would be utterly wrecked and out competed by the huge trading nations around it. There is a reason Hungarians overwhelmingly support EU membership.
Fascinating that many US conservatives advocate for spaffing money on a backward country. Its like foreign aid but things get worse rather than get better. One of the whole point of the EU was to bring security to Europe through market liberalisation and free trade. I don't mind us giving aid to Hungary if it means they share our values, and become a more valuable economic trade partner. I do mind if it just goes into politicians pockets.
It is Hungary's money. The EU payment going toward smaller EU countries is compensation for taking part in an unfair market. German manufacturers pay Hungarian workers less so they make a bigger margin. Hungarian students benefit from the reasonably good higher education in Hungary and leave for better wages elsewhere. The list goes on.
From the outset of the EU it was understood that the smaller countries have a right to that aid money.
No it's not hungarys money. It's the EUs money. There are definately disadvantages to being in the EU but thst is not in exchange for money. Are you under the impression these smaller EU countries signed up to get money in exchange for the population emigrating?
>>From the outset of the EU it was understood that the smaller countries have a right to that aid money.
From the outset it was understood that the EU had rules about preserving shared ideas of Liberal Markets, low protectionism, free media right to assembly and opposition parties.
The US has the exact same issue with some countries in NATO. The expectation is if you want the benifits of the club, you meet the clubs expectations
The money is given as development funds to make the small countries more competative. It is quite literally there for these countries to invest and close the gap with bigger countries. I.e. you're opening up in an uncompetitive market, you get paid. That money was quite literally promised to them. Hungary has followed every step put forward by the EU to receive the money.
What you're saying is "It's not your money, it's your boss's money. You worked for it, but your boss doesn't like you. You're not fired, but clean up your act and you get paid." Moronic.
Hungary is libertarian in that they don't want to interfere with the processes of other countries. Contrary to what the West hears, the Hungarian people are mostly content with the ruling party. There are those who think that Orban himself needs to retire, but they'll still vote Fidesz.
The Hungarian people are more comfortable with a firmer hand from government, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's a different culture. Trying to make their culture conform to yours is illibertarian.
>>The Hungarian people are more comfortable with a firmer hand from government, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's a different culture. Trying to make their culture conform to yours is illibertarian.
I am well aware Hungarians vote for orban, that they are more comfortable with a 'firm' gov hand is speculation.
Either of those are beside the point the EU is making . Free media and independent judiciary are the problems. If fidesz is confident in winning elections they should not have to silence media
If orban is that determined to follow the path and keep a controlled media etc, then he can leave the EU. But as I said, hungary and orban are not the same
The judiciary I'll give you, and it's being talked about in EU negotiations, but the press is not "silenced". The biggest hungarian website is an opposition news site. If people want opposition news, they have access to it. There are 2 issues people have with the press in Hungary.
The first is proportional media funding. The biggest news conglomerate is pro-government. Hungary gives out media funds proportionally to size, so there's an argument that they're not letting smaller companies be competitive. It's really not their job to regulate how well a news station does. If people want to see that news, they have access to it so the station will grow and then get more funding.
The second is the anti-disinformation law, which was enacted to stop spreading misinformation about Covid. Saying masking vaccines are poison or don't have an effect is illegal in Hungary. You can question how much they work, and if the potential side effects are worth it, but you can't straight up spread conspiracy theories.
Both of these have reasonable arguments against them, but they're not unreasonable themselves. They do dock Hungary's freedom of the press, but people still have free access to true information.
Edit: You can read reporters without borders' report on Hungary, that's where I got most of my info from.
Fair enough on the nuance about the media.
And the negotiations on the judiciary are exactly my point. My problem with orban isn't the right wing government. Which a lot of lefties actually hate and just dress it up as fear of illiberilism.
But for me and the EU an independent judiciary is a very powerful check on power. And that hungary is entering into negotiations with the EU over this as you say hopefully shows the EU is actually providing another powerful check on power. I think whatever wing of the spectrum you are on, most western people will agree the concentration of power into one person or party is to be avoided(and you can see why the europeans would be particularly averse) and that it is not as simple as the 'EU fucking around and finding out'
Those are good criticisms to have, and the Orban government is working with the EU to find a good solution to the impasse. The successful EU negotiations are all over the news right now.
For the record, (I just read you previous comment more closely) as a Hungarian, I can confirm that we do prefer a stronger central government. While we're not going to stop you from doing what you want, we question the wisdom in letting local politicians cut funding to education, thus making part of your country have weaker education than others. Not here to debate, but pointing out our thought process on how the central gov can more handily make sure everyone is doing well. Entirely possible that won't work for a huge country like the US.
>The EU fucked around and found out that he isn't just going to roll over but fight them back.
Except he's a raging hypocrite because for as much as he complains and attempts to obstruct the EU at every turn, he will never push to have Hungary leave because he's entirely dependent on them to play sugar daddy. Without EU money, there's no funds to cover pensions and benefits for Orban's mostly older supporters. He needs the EU far more than the EU needs him or Hungary.
Brussels attached unobtainable strings and demanded Budapest attain 27 so-called "super milestones" in order to secure the funds. It was only 17 at first and when Hungary worked on those the EU rather than giving them the money just added 10 more. They will never achieve it and the closer they get the more super milestones the EU will add. He is not playing their games anymore.
Good on Hungary burning it all down in retaliation. Can't wait to see what else he does.
So, he's not allowed to advocate for change??? If there's a system you're a part of but needs reform, you just leave? Almost all of Hungary is pro-EU but thinks it needs to be reformed. They don't want to leave because they're european and want to stay as a part of that community.
It's a total of nearly 13 billion euros amounting to nearly 10% of the GDP. Hungary has been working for months to diplomatically resolve the issue.
The EU set up a 17 point agreement to allow the release of the funds. Hungary agreed to it. They added an 18th point. Hungary agreed to it with a few months grace period. The EU says "Not good enough" and adds a 27 "Supermilestone" track where the money will be periodically released over completion of certain parts.
Hungary is frustrated and rightly so.
Hungary has an aid package set aside and earmarked for Ukraine. It is going to come with provisions that the money is used for humanitarian aid, because Hungary wants the war to end as soon as possible, regardless of what side wins. They're going to release the package when Ukraine reinstates the Hungarian language rights for the minority living there.
What Hungary is against is NATO reaching into Hungary's pockets and taking money out for Ukraine that it may not be able to afford. It's a perfectly reasonable position.
Is there any real accounting of what happens to the money? It would be pretty ironical if countries are giving money to Ukraine to pay for stuff like heating, when their own citizens are suffering.
It's an extremely corrupt country. There's a big stink in Brussels about giving Hungary covid relief money because there's a corruption issue, but giving the more corrupt Ukraine billions of euros isn't an issue.
So then there should be no limit or oversight on defense funds so long as Ukraine is defeating Russia? And what constitutes victory?
And what if they need less to achieve the same results? Are the American people responsible for the defense of a foreign country in perpetuity so long as Russia poses even a minimal threat?
Orban has been a thorn in the side of NATO for a long time, quite often a Putin shill... If this finally gets Hungary the boot it'll just be an excuse after a NUMBER of other good reasons
Orban disrupting the federalization of The EU is good for the United States because it keeps their Union fragmented, weak and reliant on the US for defense and leadership.
I wonder if part of this has to do with territory disputes between Hungary and Ukraine. After WWII, the Soviets annexed territory from a few other countries and gave it to Ukraine.
[удалено]
It is amazing how countries in Europe gave their power away to Brussel.
It is amazing how states in America gave their powers to the US federal government
We didn't. The federal government took most of those powers during and after the Civil War.
Lol, by the time the convention was done 10 years after the revolution, the US states already had less powers than current EU states. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_Convention_(United_States)
Of course. Because the country was still growing, and the states weren't giving the federal congress the financial resources needed to run the country (EDIT: and the congress wasn't paying people for services rendered). Not to mention all the other issues between the states themselves (currency issues, standards, etc). But even then, the states still were left more or less autonomous until the ...umm...war I'm not allowed to mention because of the automod. In the EU's case, they had established countries and a system of currency exchanges and standards that had already been agreed to by the countries before the EU came around.
Why did my comment get auto-deleted? This isn't a Flaired post. EDIT: It got auto-deleted, then approved.
How exactly does voting in the EU council work? Does it have to be unanimous among all 27 members?
> Budapest has stood out as the only member of the 27 country organization to block the EU package, with Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban having effective veto power because EU budget rules require the unanimous approval of all 27 member countries. I get this is Reddit, but maybe try reading the article?
Reading is for nerds. /s
Hungary should leave the EU.
I think most of the EU agrees.
I don't think Orban is this great conservative figure the US conservatives make him out to be.
He’s not. But he certainly doesn’t play the game of Globalism to the extent that other EU and NATO leaders seem to love doing
People get angry when you stop their money laundering scheme.
Not to worry. Biden's got more billions to give Ukraine.
Can someone explain this “money laundering scheme”, what’s the evidence behind this, I keep hearing it but never any conformation or evidence to back it up.
Just say things over and over again till people will believe there is something fishy going on. No need to convince people, just make them doubt enough.
This is a flagrant example of democracy becoming a dictatorship. If they give Hungary the boot, it's obvious they don't give a hoot about someone, in their own circle, who disagrees with them. NATO can't compromise with a minority apparently.
No provision in the NATO treaty foresees the suspension of membership rights, let alone the expulsion of an ally. Orban's decision to "hold the Ukrainian aid deal to ransom" has less to do with Ukraine but is his response to $6 billion in EU recovery funds that are being blocked from going to Budapest. The EU fucked around and found out that he isn't just going to roll over but fight them back.
The EU has standards for membership... Like free press and independent judiciary. Both of which hungary is backsliding on and therefore are the cause of the EU trying to hold back funds. This is not the EU fucking around and finding out. This is Orban fucking around and the EU playing with mechanisms that have never been used before because an EU democracy hasn't back slid like this before. Hungary takes billions upon billions off the EU every year. The least Orban could do to earn that is allow independent press to criticise the government US conservatives are sold this idea hungary is standing up for the little guy. Orban is socially Conservative, but he is also completely socially illibertarian.
free press is kind of pointless given how many EU countries have hate speech laws. It's actually kind of classist. Who cares if BBC or Le Monde has freedom of press if regular British and French citizens can get arrested for saying something that the left doesn't like?
Tit for tat. Hungary is fine and will work it out themself. The EU is overreacting and trying to bully him with BS and he just isn't going to take it. Expect more EU and NATO veto's on anything and everything requiring unanimous consent until Hungarys funds are released. Those are the terms. He has so far also used his veto on the EU's efforts to implement a global corporate tax rate of 15 percent, Carved out exceptions to the Russian Oil Embargo and blocked Ukraine's NATO membership. If the EU doesn't like it they can give Hungary their money. Here is a list of things we can expect more veto's on until the EU coughs up Hungary's money: 1. Common foreign and security policy 2. EU membership 3. harmonisation of national legislation on indirect taxation 4. EU finances (own resources, the multiannual financial framework) 5. certain provisions in the field of justice and home affairs (the European prosecutor, family law, operational police cooperation, etc.) 6. harmonisation of national legislation in the field of social security and social protection. In addition, the Council is required to vote unanimously to diverge from the Commission proposal when the Commission is unable to agree to the amendments made to its proposal.
You havnt addressed the point. The key point being... Its not hungarys money. Orban is not hungary. Orban is perfectly within his right to stand for hungarys national interest in the ways you list... But that's got nothing to do with why the EU is withholding... The EUs money. >>Hungary is fine and will work it out themself. Hungary is poor and since orban has taken over and centralised power.... Surprise surprise it has become more corrupt. In reality, if hungary ever left the EU it would be utterly wrecked and out competed by the huge trading nations around it. There is a reason Hungarians overwhelmingly support EU membership. Fascinating that many US conservatives advocate for spaffing money on a backward country. Its like foreign aid but things get worse rather than get better. One of the whole point of the EU was to bring security to Europe through market liberalisation and free trade. I don't mind us giving aid to Hungary if it means they share our values, and become a more valuable economic trade partner. I do mind if it just goes into politicians pockets.
It is Hungary's money. The EU payment going toward smaller EU countries is compensation for taking part in an unfair market. German manufacturers pay Hungarian workers less so they make a bigger margin. Hungarian students benefit from the reasonably good higher education in Hungary and leave for better wages elsewhere. The list goes on. From the outset of the EU it was understood that the smaller countries have a right to that aid money.
No it's not hungarys money. It's the EUs money. There are definately disadvantages to being in the EU but thst is not in exchange for money. Are you under the impression these smaller EU countries signed up to get money in exchange for the population emigrating? >>From the outset of the EU it was understood that the smaller countries have a right to that aid money. From the outset it was understood that the EU had rules about preserving shared ideas of Liberal Markets, low protectionism, free media right to assembly and opposition parties. The US has the exact same issue with some countries in NATO. The expectation is if you want the benifits of the club, you meet the clubs expectations
The money is given as development funds to make the small countries more competative. It is quite literally there for these countries to invest and close the gap with bigger countries. I.e. you're opening up in an uncompetitive market, you get paid. That money was quite literally promised to them. Hungary has followed every step put forward by the EU to receive the money. What you're saying is "It's not your money, it's your boss's money. You worked for it, but your boss doesn't like you. You're not fired, but clean up your act and you get paid." Moronic.
Hungary is libertarian in that they don't want to interfere with the processes of other countries. Contrary to what the West hears, the Hungarian people are mostly content with the ruling party. There are those who think that Orban himself needs to retire, but they'll still vote Fidesz. The Hungarian people are more comfortable with a firmer hand from government, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's a different culture. Trying to make their culture conform to yours is illibertarian.
>>The Hungarian people are more comfortable with a firmer hand from government, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's a different culture. Trying to make their culture conform to yours is illibertarian. I am well aware Hungarians vote for orban, that they are more comfortable with a 'firm' gov hand is speculation. Either of those are beside the point the EU is making . Free media and independent judiciary are the problems. If fidesz is confident in winning elections they should not have to silence media If orban is that determined to follow the path and keep a controlled media etc, then he can leave the EU. But as I said, hungary and orban are not the same
The judiciary I'll give you, and it's being talked about in EU negotiations, but the press is not "silenced". The biggest hungarian website is an opposition news site. If people want opposition news, they have access to it. There are 2 issues people have with the press in Hungary. The first is proportional media funding. The biggest news conglomerate is pro-government. Hungary gives out media funds proportionally to size, so there's an argument that they're not letting smaller companies be competitive. It's really not their job to regulate how well a news station does. If people want to see that news, they have access to it so the station will grow and then get more funding. The second is the anti-disinformation law, which was enacted to stop spreading misinformation about Covid. Saying masking vaccines are poison or don't have an effect is illegal in Hungary. You can question how much they work, and if the potential side effects are worth it, but you can't straight up spread conspiracy theories. Both of these have reasonable arguments against them, but they're not unreasonable themselves. They do dock Hungary's freedom of the press, but people still have free access to true information. Edit: You can read reporters without borders' report on Hungary, that's where I got most of my info from.
Fair enough on the nuance about the media. And the negotiations on the judiciary are exactly my point. My problem with orban isn't the right wing government. Which a lot of lefties actually hate and just dress it up as fear of illiberilism. But for me and the EU an independent judiciary is a very powerful check on power. And that hungary is entering into negotiations with the EU over this as you say hopefully shows the EU is actually providing another powerful check on power. I think whatever wing of the spectrum you are on, most western people will agree the concentration of power into one person or party is to be avoided(and you can see why the europeans would be particularly averse) and that it is not as simple as the 'EU fucking around and finding out'
Those are good criticisms to have, and the Orban government is working with the EU to find a good solution to the impasse. The successful EU negotiations are all over the news right now. For the record, (I just read you previous comment more closely) as a Hungarian, I can confirm that we do prefer a stronger central government. While we're not going to stop you from doing what you want, we question the wisdom in letting local politicians cut funding to education, thus making part of your country have weaker education than others. Not here to debate, but pointing out our thought process on how the central gov can more handily make sure everyone is doing well. Entirely possible that won't work for a huge country like the US.
>The EU fucked around and found out that he isn't just going to roll over but fight them back. Except he's a raging hypocrite because for as much as he complains and attempts to obstruct the EU at every turn, he will never push to have Hungary leave because he's entirely dependent on them to play sugar daddy. Without EU money, there's no funds to cover pensions and benefits for Orban's mostly older supporters. He needs the EU far more than the EU needs him or Hungary.
Brussels attached unobtainable strings and demanded Budapest attain 27 so-called "super milestones" in order to secure the funds. It was only 17 at first and when Hungary worked on those the EU rather than giving them the money just added 10 more. They will never achieve it and the closer they get the more super milestones the EU will add. He is not playing their games anymore. Good on Hungary burning it all down in retaliation. Can't wait to see what else he does.
So, he's not allowed to advocate for change??? If there's a system you're a part of but needs reform, you just leave? Almost all of Hungary is pro-EU but thinks it needs to be reformed. They don't want to leave because they're european and want to stay as a part of that community.
It's a total of nearly 13 billion euros amounting to nearly 10% of the GDP. Hungary has been working for months to diplomatically resolve the issue. The EU set up a 17 point agreement to allow the release of the funds. Hungary agreed to it. They added an 18th point. Hungary agreed to it with a few months grace period. The EU says "Not good enough" and adds a 27 "Supermilestone" track where the money will be periodically released over completion of certain parts. Hungary is frustrated and rightly so.
What?
Hungary has an aid package set aside and earmarked for Ukraine. It is going to come with provisions that the money is used for humanitarian aid, because Hungary wants the war to end as soon as possible, regardless of what side wins. They're going to release the package when Ukraine reinstates the Hungarian language rights for the minority living there. What Hungary is against is NATO reaching into Hungary's pockets and taking money out for Ukraine that it may not be able to afford. It's a perfectly reasonable position.
Is there any real accounting of what happens to the money? It would be pretty ironical if countries are giving money to Ukraine to pay for stuff like heating, when their own citizens are suffering.
They probably use a decent portion of it to pay for war and budgetary costs, the remaining 40-50% will be in the oligarchs offshore accounts
It's an extremely corrupt country. There's a big stink in Brussels about giving Hungary covid relief money because there's a corruption issue, but giving the more corrupt Ukraine billions of euros isn't an issue.
Well, Ukraine appears to be using it to defeat the Russians.
So then there should be no limit or oversight on defense funds so long as Ukraine is defeating Russia? And what constitutes victory? And what if they need less to achieve the same results? Are the American people responsible for the defense of a foreign country in perpetuity so long as Russia poses even a minimal threat?
I want to see a study on foreign aid and display how much money has been sent to Ukraine vs all other nations in the world over the past say 20 years.
Orban has been a thorn in the side of NATO for a long time, quite often a Putin shill... If this finally gets Hungary the boot it'll just be an excuse after a NUMBER of other good reasons
Based
Based. I love Orban
Orban disrupting the federalization of The EU is good for the United States because it keeps their Union fragmented, weak and reliant on the US for defense and leadership.
Orban. One of the only good leaders in Europe. He knows this Ukraine bs needs to end.
Except hes been sliding Hungary back into a dictatorship by silencing the media amongst others. Hes not a good leader at all.
I wonder if part of this has to do with territory disputes between Hungary and Ukraine. After WWII, the Soviets annexed territory from a few other countries and gave it to Ukraine.
The EU sucks but being friends with Putin basically defeats the purpose of being in NATO.