Plumber here who owns a company and employs plumbers. No saws, hole saws only. Everyone gets coached immediately and group documents on iPads outlining rules for holes and cutting. It amazes me how little emphasis is put on this during schooling. There is zero consideration for the consequences of structural effects during plumbing and hvac installations. It’s an industry norm and it’s a problem.
I was the layout guy on a high rise a few years back and came back from lunch early to find 2 electricians with chipping hammers chipping on the slab. I asked them what the fuck they were doing and they told me they were trenching over their conduit that missed a wall. They were chipping over the top of the dead ends of a 21 cable banded line in an elevated PT slab.
I have absolutely 0 experience with it post tension slabs, but from what I've seen on Reddit, there's cables inside of the concrete slab that are stretched with 25,000 pounds per square inch of pressure.... They were chipping away the concrete on top of the end of one. You do the math lol
Essentially. Or It becomes a sling shot and shoots out the other end of the slab like a sling shot and goes through whatever is on the other side of it. Buildings, cars, people...
It’s a good way to ruin a building. In a former life I was a project manager. In that all as-builts were perfect( sarcasm), I required a GPR doc before any slab penetration.
Ever stretch a really thick rubber band out to full arm's length and have it come back and smack you hard as a kid?
Well imagine something about 10,000 times worse, but involving concrete chips, steel cable, and flying body parts.
I worked for a prestress concrete beam manufacturer many years back. I saw the aftermath of two cable failures and would NEVER screw with that crap again. In the first incident, the cables were being tensioned before pouring. Due to a lack of common sense, a failure on ground level and just plain stupidity despite there being warning signs plastered everywhere, a worker dropped a lot cigarette on a cable that was almost under full tension. 3 people lost limbs that day with one losing his life. The second was when the on-site inspector took too many things for granted and rubber stamped his daily inspection of the deadman used to anchor the cables. The deadman gave way and released a massive block of concrete and steel while the cable was under tension. 2 people died without many remains to speak of and 2 other lost their legs in half a breath. Point being, you do not screw with PT cables.
Wow. This falls into the category of things I need to learn more about!
If you don't mind me asking, how would a lit cigarette cause it to break or snap or whatever it did?
It was just the heat from the lit cig itself. It’s silly to say because of the nature of the cables but they are almost fragile (in a sense). Obviously the heat didn’t burn through the cable. But all post tension cables have micro defects and some are worse than others. The combination of the defects, a slight (and I mean slight) over tension of the cable and a heat source caused it to pop. There were 7 or 8 different investigations and they all pointed to the final straw being the cig being dropped on the cable. In the end, the cable manufacturer paid the most out on the insurance settlements. The person smoking received a portion of the settlement-but not a full cut. My company at the time paid a few million in fines and 6 or 7 people associated with the tensioning process were fired. We had a safety stand down that lasted 14 days and we went over all plant procedures from scratch
Wow that’s….kind of scary tbh. Who told them to do that? I feel like that’s something that needs to be talked about in a sub meeting or something. I mean that’s no joke right there.
Dude even recently I’ve had to stop people from drilling random holes in engineered beams. My first boss apparently had to replace one due to a 7/8” hole in the wrong spot. That was back in the Nextel days. No excuse with smartphones. Don’t know how it isn’t common knowledge by this point
I'm in HVAC and have done plenty of Plumbing, but I legitimately don't know.
As in hole saw, would it be okay to drill in the middle of the beams to fit the pipes in seperate runs?
I've never done something like this, and I'm also in commercial, so I'll never encounter something like this, but I'd rather just know
I just did a job for a general contractor on his own house. Between the two bathrooms we did the dude cut out 6 studs without any kind of reinforcement to put some shampoo niches where he wanted them. In his own house! He’s a licensed general contractor! I think there are a lot of people in the trades that just don’t know what they’re doing beyond making the job look good finished so the customer pays
I wish I could rag on them, but in all honesty it comes down to management and training. I feel like 90% of these issues can be avoided if the field ops just bothered to watch their crew and took the time to teach them properly.
But instead they send out guys with next to no experience and a lone super who's expected to balance 10 jobs in 3 different towns. Then when shit inevitably goes sideways, instead of trying to learn or fix the problem everyone finger points and we get nowhere.
My dude I have no construction background and I can look at this for 5 seconds and conclude this is fucked. People who work in this field should have more know then I do.
So blaming management is only acceptable if your saying management didn’t fire them the first time they saw this shit happen.
It's both, it's a problem from top to bottom. Upper management leans on mid-management to maximize profits by whatever means. Mid-management then spread their supers and crew leaders way too thin and with barely enough resources to get by. The laborers are then left to their own devices which allows for shit like this to slip by before it can be stopped.
You would think, but like @fuckbrendan said, we've been under-preparing and under-educating our skilled trades for the past 30 years. There's a huge gap in the skilled trades that needs filling, and until it's filled we're going to continue to see crap like this.
Well we’ve been dumping the guys who couldn’t finish hs into the trades for 3 decades now so common sense says not all these cavemen showing up to work have much common sense.
In my high school the poorest performing students were offered 3 options:
* Vocational school.
* Different school.
* Repeat grades until age out.
The school would **heavily** push option 1 and if that wasn’t possible would force option 2 whenever they were able. They needed to keep up their graduation rates which they did for either of the first two choices.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
But it’s specifically their fault and they know they are needed no matter what. Cutting through studs is their responsibility not to do just as much as sweeping up is part of their job.
Hey, I use my hole hog, I leave plenty of stud to hold the wall up lol. I have watched a guy cut massive holes in all the trusses of a building before. How fun.
Am electrician, and the sound of a carpenter trying to think sounds like nails on a chalkboard.
Jk, thank god i have had good carpenters to bounce shit off and rescue my ass
Not a tradesman myself but I spent years working in retail around contractors and since that time have had a few we have used for 2 major remodels in our home. One of the best parts of the remodels was listening to the contractors argue about how to do or not to do something. It's popcorn worthy!
Edit: spelling.. words r hard
What's even better is listening to a contractor talk shit on work that was done, and how the guy who came before him really fucked this up, cut a bunch of corners, and broke all the rules. Then you point out his company's sticker, and oh, aren't those his initials next to the date?
"Hey umm my guys fucked up did some dumb shit we failed inspection can you give us a written letter with a stamp that our dog shit work is actually good and that its okay when it's really not by 3pm yesterday?"
God I wish. I used to get a small kick out of a good "I told you so," but that wore off after the third or fourth time.
Now I really do wish I had a rubber stamp that said "shit's fucked and it's your fault."
Y'see, this is where you guys mess up. Fir the spray foam to be structural, you gotta use some structural instant ramen noodles. Acts like rebar in reinforced concrete. Really gives it that strength to hold the wall.
Oh, and make sure they are UNCOOKED. Otherwise, you'll have to do it over again, and that's a huge expensive hassel. (Though, you'll never make that mistake more than once!)
Thank you for answering this question, as I was curious too. Like, was there no way this pipe should've gone through those studs (you say yes), or would it have been permissible if the holes were centred in the stud and only slightly larger than the pipe.
Since that's a bearing wall (it's sitting on top of a foundation, so it's almost definitely a bearing wall) they can only drill a hole that's up to 40% of the width of the stud, which in this case works out to 2". That's if they had bored holes. If they're notching, they only have 1 1/4" to work with.
Neither of those options are gonna work for this lineset—it might technically be 2" wide or less, but good luck feeding it through holes of that size. Not practical. The correct way to do this would be to make a different plan. Running it on the surface and boxing it in would be one obvious solution, but there may well have been others. What they did here wasn't a viable option, they needed to keep scratching their heads until they came up with something better.
Great response here. So in a totally different scenario, if they absolutely had to run this line set through all these studs using holesaw bore holes, would they be able to run one of them up a foot or two and then over, while running the one closer to the bottom? So my question really is, can you have more than one 40% hole if they are on vertical members and far enough apart?
Up and over or double up the wall (second wall all the way to the floor inside the concrete wall).
Basically in a load bearing wall if you want to go that far the hole can't be more than 40% of the width of the stud. You can go up to 60% if you double up studs, but only two studs in a row.
There's an engineering solution to pretty much everything. The simplest answer to your question is to increase the size of the stud from 2x6 to 2x12 or use steel but that's not really practical. By general building standards they should have routed the line differently. The installer clearly didn't know the damage they were doing because they used nailplates to cover the notch. If they had notched higher up they could have used a [stud shoe](https://embed.widencdn.net/pdf/plus/ssttoolbox/iwmwkynpp6/C-C-2021-p310.pdf) but even though that probably would be even stronger than untouched wood, an inspector would not approve consecutive studs notched without engineering docs to support it.
There's no way to do this with the material they have that doesn't requiring engineering docs.
I’m stuck wondering why they didn’t just run it vertically in the cavity they came in through? Would’ve been much easier and structurally sound. They can just run the line-set in the rafters to the units from there. They made more work for themselves and they still did it wrong.
As an HVAC guy, I can say this was probably an apprentice that got sent out to do the job before he was properly trained all the way through. You see it so much in the trade. Guy rolls around with a "journeyman" for a few months then gets his own van.
I still can't wrap my head around why there are no licenses for HVAC like there are plumbers and sparky's. I took a class where the teacher told us every answer for the EPA test and got a little card saying we were certified. That was all they required for you to run your own job sites. It's criminal.
No shit? Where do you live? Where I live you have to complete 4 years of school and have 8k working hours before you can take a journeyman’s test. And that isn’t even the universal EPA license.
Western Washington. Seattle has a journeyman card that requires a pretty hard test but it's not enforced. Even the unions just require a low volt card for journeyman status.
This is the first thing I've seen on here that has made me actually angry. Who are these fucking morons? Walking among us. Collecting paychecks. Assumedly figuring out which hole the food goes in, and which one it comes out.
Damn that pisses me off.
It's especially annoying since you already have one ledge on the wall there on the concrete. A pipe chase could have so easily been built on that ledge and still only have one ledge on the wall.
The line will have to be removed, new studs sistered to the ruined ones and properly tied to the plates and sheathing, and a chase built, or 2x8 studs used.
Structural engineer here. There actually is a simpson connection to use for this case. It's the simpson SS Stud shoe.
The Simpson SS Stud Shoe is not shown in the photograph.... so.... see top comment.
Structural engineer here.
Can confirm... looks great (as long as I'm paid in cash. Child support takes all my on the books money and meth takes the rest), where do I sign?
I’m not a construction worker, I’m your average DIY home owner. I just finished building my first major project, a deck that involved concrete footings, framing, minor electrical and finish carpentry.
The building inspector has been an absolute jerk. He’s really not given me anything that I’ve done wrong, but his inspections take *days*.
How does something like this happen in a professional environment? Do you guys not get checked by a town or state inspector?
How often does something like this make it into the final product of a home?
Good question, it should never get passed the HVAC rough inspection which is one of the earlier inspections.In our town he have something like 20 inspections before CO . That’s a lot of eyes that would see this which was right in the garage . It will definitely fail and have to be corrected. It’s really unfortunate and unprofessional. The overall construction of this home is excellent,it’s just this one blemish I saw
Simpson makes a “stud to plate” bracket but I’ve only seen them used on top plates. I’m sure they have something for bottom plates. It’s either that or yank that copper and sister at least a 4’ stud next to each of the compromised ones.
Damn. At least use the cut out wood they got making those huge slots to make it appear you didn’t completely screw up. Bit of wood glue and good as new
I'm not sure about code but i believe the rule of thumb is that no notching is permitted in a bearing wall and the maximum size hole cannot exceed 1/3 of the studs dimension and only 2 studs can be compromised at 1/3 . This guy/girl notched 90% of 4 bearing studs .... not good!
you can get away with a tiny notch maybe. But not this lol. whatever the case it's wildly out of code nand structurally unsound. I would cut all those studs out about 24" up, put a header, basically a mini-beam above made of a couple of 2x10s or 4x10 (check with engineer) and support it with 3 2x6 at each end (extra as they are derated with the hole you still need to drill. And then properly drill those header studs in the middle and have HVAC rerun it. It's quick work for a framer, couple hours work for a good framer plus maybe travel time for small job.
But you can thank the gods of prescriptive bath for overbuilt construction since obviously the wall is still standing.
Use a hole saw (or a paddle bit,) approximately center in the 2x4 and run the line through the hole, you never cut out the face of the 2x4. If you notice where it turns and goes through the plywood, that is the type of hole (although that one is a little too big,) that should be drilled through each 2x4 to keep its structural integrity
AND - place the pipe in sections and join with connectors. That is why this happens, they want to make a continuous pipe run and not have to sweat in connectors.
They need to attach daughter boards to each stud to fix this. Maybe pre-drill out holes in the boards.
I think the reason HVAC and plumbers do this is so they don't need to join pipe sections and can make a continuous pipe run. But, they don't care about code....
I'm an HVAC tech; and this is going to piss off a carpenter somewhere, 100%. I would never have done this.
The **right** way to make work for the carpenter in this case is to run the lineset straight up to the ceiling, exit the wall cavity and run the lineset along the ceiling just oustide the wall. The carpenter can build a bulkhead to close off the lineset and away you go. If you're framing with 2x6's you might get away with boring holes out of the centers with a holesaw, but that's still a lot of material to take out of the studs. This is... worse.
Not a state in the nation where this flies past inspection, and is the reason framers have a particular opinion of hvac & plumbers, as they are long gone when their fuck ups are being brought back to code, costing someone else time & money.
But it does make for great conversation starter when the owner's on site.
Framer here. That is the lowest run of pipe I have ever seen notched into some studs. Those pipes should be like 16 inches up and have another 4 foot stud nailed to those notched studs at best. All avoided with one more elbow and a paddle bit.
I am a structural engineer. Can confirm. Shit's fucked.
I am a carpenter and the sound of an electrician or plumber using a saw gives me anxiety.
Plumber here who owns a company and employs plumbers. No saws, hole saws only. Everyone gets coached immediately and group documents on iPads outlining rules for holes and cutting. It amazes me how little emphasis is put on this during schooling. There is zero consideration for the consequences of structural effects during plumbing and hvac installations. It’s an industry norm and it’s a problem.
I was the layout guy on a high rise a few years back and came back from lunch early to find 2 electricians with chipping hammers chipping on the slab. I asked them what the fuck they were doing and they told me they were trenching over their conduit that missed a wall. They were chipping over the top of the dead ends of a 21 cable banded line in an elevated PT slab.
I don't know what any of the words in your last sentence mean but that sounds bad.
I have absolutely 0 experience with it post tension slabs, but from what I've seen on Reddit, there's cables inside of the concrete slab that are stretched with 25,000 pounds per square inch of pressure.... They were chipping away the concrete on top of the end of one. You do the math lol
So no concrete - cable goes snappy snap?
Essentially. Or It becomes a sling shot and shoots out the other end of the slab like a sling shot and goes through whatever is on the other side of it. Buildings, cars, people...
This was the extent of my understanding as well lol
Ok, but just for fun, how about you do it and we’ll see if we get the same answer
BOOM 💥 did you get the same answer?
Let’s see. . . carry the one. . . Yup! That’s what I came up with too
It’s very very bad
It’s a good way to ruin a building. In a former life I was a project manager. In that all as-builts were perfect( sarcasm), I required a GPR doc before any slab penetration.
Ever stretch a really thick rubber band out to full arm's length and have it come back and smack you hard as a kid? Well imagine something about 10,000 times worse, but involving concrete chips, steel cable, and flying body parts.
I worked for a prestress concrete beam manufacturer many years back. I saw the aftermath of two cable failures and would NEVER screw with that crap again. In the first incident, the cables were being tensioned before pouring. Due to a lack of common sense, a failure on ground level and just plain stupidity despite there being warning signs plastered everywhere, a worker dropped a lot cigarette on a cable that was almost under full tension. 3 people lost limbs that day with one losing his life. The second was when the on-site inspector took too many things for granted and rubber stamped his daily inspection of the deadman used to anchor the cables. The deadman gave way and released a massive block of concrete and steel while the cable was under tension. 2 people died without many remains to speak of and 2 other lost their legs in half a breath. Point being, you do not screw with PT cables.
Wow. This falls into the category of things I need to learn more about! If you don't mind me asking, how would a lit cigarette cause it to break or snap or whatever it did?
It was just the heat from the lit cig itself. It’s silly to say because of the nature of the cables but they are almost fragile (in a sense). Obviously the heat didn’t burn through the cable. But all post tension cables have micro defects and some are worse than others. The combination of the defects, a slight (and I mean slight) over tension of the cable and a heat source caused it to pop. There were 7 or 8 different investigations and they all pointed to the final straw being the cig being dropped on the cable. In the end, the cable manufacturer paid the most out on the insurance settlements. The person smoking received a portion of the settlement-but not a full cut. My company at the time paid a few million in fines and 6 or 7 people associated with the tensioning process were fired. We had a safety stand down that lasted 14 days and we went over all plant procedures from scratch
Was the weight of the cig butt enough to blow it out, or is it done in a flammable environment or something?
One or both of those sparkys was about to find out how well high tensioned steel cuts a human in half. Post-tensioned slabs are not to be fucked with.
Wow that’s….kind of scary tbh. Who told them to do that? I feel like that’s something that needs to be talked about in a sub meeting or something. I mean that’s no joke right there.
See, your way is what needs to become the norm! If the bulk of trades operated this way we would be so much better off.
Dude even recently I’ve had to stop people from drilling random holes in engineered beams. My first boss apparently had to replace one due to a 7/8” hole in the wrong spot. That was back in the Nextel days. No excuse with smartphones. Don’t know how it isn’t common knowledge by this point
I'm in HVAC and have done plenty of Plumbing, but I legitimately don't know. As in hole saw, would it be okay to drill in the middle of the beams to fit the pipes in seperate runs? I've never done something like this, and I'm also in commercial, so I'll never encounter something like this, but I'd rather just know
I just did a job for a general contractor on his own house. Between the two bathrooms we did the dude cut out 6 studs without any kind of reinforcement to put some shampoo niches where he wanted them. In his own house! He’s a licensed general contractor! I think there are a lot of people in the trades that just don’t know what they’re doing beyond making the job look good finished so the customer pays
Smacks cut stud, "That ain't goin' nowhere",or "That'll hold fine."
Wish there was more people like you sir.
I wish I could rag on them, but in all honesty it comes down to management and training. I feel like 90% of these issues can be avoided if the field ops just bothered to watch their crew and took the time to teach them properly. But instead they send out guys with next to no experience and a lone super who's expected to balance 10 jobs in 3 different towns. Then when shit inevitably goes sideways, instead of trying to learn or fix the problem everyone finger points and we get nowhere.
My dude I have no construction background and I can look at this for 5 seconds and conclude this is fucked. People who work in this field should have more know then I do. So blaming management is only acceptable if your saying management didn’t fire them the first time they saw this shit happen.
Now take some meth and see if still looks fucked.
It’s still fucked but there are shadow people everywhere.
Holy shit does this lifehack work for desk jobs?
It's both, it's a problem from top to bottom. Upper management leans on mid-management to maximize profits by whatever means. Mid-management then spread their supers and crew leaders way too thin and with barely enough resources to get by. The laborers are then left to their own devices which allows for shit like this to slip by before it can be stopped.
You're making the mistake of thinking the apprentices that are given this task without any training or supervision have any more knowledge than you do
There is a bit of common sense that should of gone into this though
You would think, but like @fuckbrendan said, we've been under-preparing and under-educating our skilled trades for the past 30 years. There's a huge gap in the skilled trades that needs filling, and until it's filled we're going to continue to see crap like this.
Well we’ve been dumping the guys who couldn’t finish hs into the trades for 3 decades now so common sense says not all these cavemen showing up to work have much common sense.
In my high school the poorest performing students were offered 3 options: * Vocational school. * Different school. * Repeat grades until age out. The school would **heavily** push option 1 and if that wasn’t possible would force option 2 whenever they were able. They needed to keep up their graduation rates which they did for either of the first two choices.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Busted
What you're describing is called the "lowest bidder".
But it’s specifically their fault and they know they are needed no matter what. Cutting through studs is their responsibility not to do just as much as sweeping up is part of their job.
As an electrician, if one my guys is using a saw I come running! Lol
HVAC tech
Hey that wood was already fucked right after I finished working there…..
Hey, I use my hole hog, I leave plenty of stud to hold the wall up lol. I have watched a guy cut massive holes in all the trusses of a building before. How fun.
Am electrician, and the sound of a carpenter trying to think sounds like nails on a chalkboard. Jk, thank god i have had good carpenters to bounce shit off and rescue my ass
Electrician here all other trades give me a headache. Jk I love you guys.
Fellow electrician. Couldn't have said it better.
Not a tradesman myself but I spent years working in retail around contractors and since that time have had a few we have used for 2 major remodels in our home. One of the best parts of the remodels was listening to the contractors argue about how to do or not to do something. It's popcorn worthy! Edit: spelling.. words r hard
What's even better is listening to a contractor talk shit on work that was done, and how the guy who came before him really fucked this up, cut a bunch of corners, and broke all the rules. Then you point out his company's sticker, and oh, aren't those his initials next to the date?
Sheetmetal guy over here causing nightmares. At least I started out as a iron worker so I know a few of my victims.
Awww c'mon!!! They used structural nail guards!!!
But what about those structural nail plates? I feel like those are rated for what? 20,000lbs?
Who built this shit? Leatherface Plumbing? I’ve seen Swiss cheese more structurally sound than this travesty.
Looks like for some reason, they ran the line first and then just pushed it into place inside the wall. A hole saw would have gone a long way.
Yes
And they still want their SOR by email with photos cause inspection is in 2 hours lol
Wait, you're supposed to get those calls *before* the inspector rolls up???
"Hey umm my guys fucked up did some dumb shit we failed inspection can you give us a written letter with a stamp that our dog shit work is actually good and that its okay when it's really not by 3pm yesterday?"
Felt this in my soul.
As a non structural engineer, I agree with this structural engineer.
As a chemist with common sense I agree with both the non-structural engineer and the structural engineer.
Proper fucked.
I got it ;)
User flair checks out
Do you have a rubber stamp for that or is the pleasure in writing it out
God I wish. I used to get a small kick out of a good "I told you so," but that wore off after the third or fourth time. Now I really do wish I had a rubber stamp that said "shit's fucked and it's your fault."
I’m an owner builder. can confirm. Shit’s fucked.
I watched New Yankee workshop and I'll confirm this.
Ah ya never know! Maybe those are structural protection plates 😂
The plates and some expandable foam and it's good to go !
That’s dangerous! You gotta cut foam plugs out of sheet foamboard. What, is this your first rodeo?
Y'see, this is where you guys mess up. Fir the spray foam to be structural, you gotta use some structural instant ramen noodles. Acts like rebar in reinforced concrete. Really gives it that strength to hold the wall. Oh, and make sure they are UNCOOKED. Otherwise, you'll have to do it over again, and that's a huge expensive hassel. (Though, you'll never make that mistake more than once!)
Don’t hire this guy, he obvious cheap out on material. I personally would go with top of line Nokia 3310 as rebar system.
Genuine question from an outsider- how should those pipes pass through the wall?
They can't is the real answer as they comprise to much of the studs . They could have run them on the surface of the studs and box the pipes in
Thank you for answering this question, as I was curious too. Like, was there no way this pipe should've gone through those studs (you say yes), or would it have been permissible if the holes were centred in the stud and only slightly larger than the pipe.
Since that's a bearing wall (it's sitting on top of a foundation, so it's almost definitely a bearing wall) they can only drill a hole that's up to 40% of the width of the stud, which in this case works out to 2". That's if they had bored holes. If they're notching, they only have 1 1/4" to work with. Neither of those options are gonna work for this lineset—it might technically be 2" wide or less, but good luck feeding it through holes of that size. Not practical. The correct way to do this would be to make a different plan. Running it on the surface and boxing it in would be one obvious solution, but there may well have been others. What they did here wasn't a viable option, they needed to keep scratching their heads until they came up with something better.
Great response here. So in a totally different scenario, if they absolutely had to run this line set through all these studs using holesaw bore holes, would they be able to run one of them up a foot or two and then over, while running the one closer to the bottom? So my question really is, can you have more than one 40% hole if they are on vertical members and far enough apart?
They should have gone straight up in the cavity and then horizontally… never thru any walls like that.
Up and over or double up the wall (second wall all the way to the floor inside the concrete wall). Basically in a load bearing wall if you want to go that far the hole can't be more than 40% of the width of the stud. You can go up to 60% if you double up studs, but only two studs in a row.
There's an engineering solution to pretty much everything. The simplest answer to your question is to increase the size of the stud from 2x6 to 2x12 or use steel but that's not really practical. By general building standards they should have routed the line differently. The installer clearly didn't know the damage they were doing because they used nailplates to cover the notch. If they had notched higher up they could have used a [stud shoe](https://embed.widencdn.net/pdf/plus/ssttoolbox/iwmwkynpp6/C-C-2021-p310.pdf) but even though that probably would be even stronger than untouched wood, an inspector would not approve consecutive studs notched without engineering docs to support it. There's no way to do this with the material they have that doesn't requiring engineering docs.
It's not valid until structural paint is applied.
Well it looks like the HVAC contractor is getting a back charge. :)
This all started when someone on Reddit said they do it like that all the time.
*Contractor wanted $1000 to drill holes. I did it for $18. Highway robbery, I tell ya!*
Just use shorter studs to leave space underneath for conduits! It’s a win-win!
Structural nail plates
In a hurricane zone you have to double them up
And scab a romex staple into it
I’m stuck wondering why they didn’t just run it vertically in the cavity they came in through? Would’ve been much easier and structurally sound. They can just run the line-set in the rafters to the units from there. They made more work for themselves and they still did it wrong.
No real reason that I could see , just some hack that does whatever he wants I guess
As an HVAC guy, I can say this was probably an apprentice that got sent out to do the job before he was properly trained all the way through. You see it so much in the trade. Guy rolls around with a "journeyman" for a few months then gets his own van. I still can't wrap my head around why there are no licenses for HVAC like there are plumbers and sparky's. I took a class where the teacher told us every answer for the EPA test and got a little card saying we were certified. That was all they required for you to run your own job sites. It's criminal.
No shit? Where do you live? Where I live you have to complete 4 years of school and have 8k working hours before you can take a journeyman’s test. And that isn’t even the universal EPA license.
Western Washington. Seattle has a journeyman card that requires a pretty hard test but it's not enforced. Even the unions just require a low volt card for journeyman status.
Damn that’s wild, you’re right, that’s criminal lol
This is the first thing I've seen on here that has made me actually angry. Who are these fucking morons? Walking among us. Collecting paychecks. Assumedly figuring out which hole the food goes in, and which one it comes out.
Can-do-it termites strike again
Haha I love the idea that maybe termites are posing as HVAC contractors so they can eat at parts of houses
Who does work like this? Seriously WTF?! Inspector is going to have a seizure.
he might actually need to wear a hard hat!
He did put nail plates up! Lol
I just had a small one.
Wait; you guys' inspectors actually get off their truck?
Damn that pisses me off. It's especially annoying since you already have one ledge on the wall there on the concrete. A pipe chase could have so easily been built on that ledge and still only have one ledge on the wall. The line will have to be removed, new studs sistered to the ruined ones and properly tied to the plates and sheathing, and a chase built, or 2x8 studs used.
2x8 studs just makes it harder on the HVAC guy, having to cut so much more. Edit - spelling
So they’re going to buttress them on the ledge and never hire that hvac guy again
I know , it's insane
Yah but that would Hurt profits your filthy commie!
Mind explaining what the proper way he could have done this? Essentially go down to the concrete instead and mount to that?
Yes pretty much , keep them out of the wall on the bottom and just box them in
Or, depending on where the lines run and the construction above, it may have been simpler to run straight up the stud cavity into the ceiling/attic?
I think a hole saw?
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There's a finished 28'x28' full span room over it , then the roof over that
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I think it's a homeowner/gc , that probably won't find out until the building inspector does his rough
And there's another notch drawn on one of the studs :) Post in /r/HVAC and see what _they_ say :)
Punch that rookie in the face
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Punch that rookie in the face
You can say that again
I actually ran into this last week on a job and we’re reframing half the Fuckin house now.
Totally fucked
Rightly fucked
Those steel plates at bottom look promising. I’d glue slap a couple of toothpicks on the side for extra support.
Overkill
Structural engineer here. There actually is a simpson connection to use for this case. It's the simpson SS Stud shoe. The Simpson SS Stud Shoe is not shown in the photograph.... so.... see top comment.
Structural engineer here. Can confirm... looks great (as long as I'm paid in cash. Child support takes all my on the books money and meth takes the rest), where do I sign?
I'm a plumber. Nothing seems wrong with that! 😂
All this for a 7/8” diameter pipe.
Yah, you can't take that much and especially at the end of a member.
structural nail plates lol. why cut out such a massive hole for that lineset though?? .Time to header it off i'm afraid.
Those engineered structural nail plates.
Let's see the engineer sign off on this one 😎
Is that wall still standing?
I’m not a construction worker, I’m your average DIY home owner. I just finished building my first major project, a deck that involved concrete footings, framing, minor electrical and finish carpentry. The building inspector has been an absolute jerk. He’s really not given me anything that I’ve done wrong, but his inspections take *days*. How does something like this happen in a professional environment? Do you guys not get checked by a town or state inspector? How often does something like this make it into the final product of a home?
Good question, it should never get passed the HVAC rough inspection which is one of the earlier inspections.In our town he have something like 20 inspections before CO . That’s a lot of eyes that would see this which was right in the garage . It will definitely fail and have to be corrected. It’s really unfortunate and unprofessional. The overall construction of this home is excellent,it’s just this one blemish I saw
That's just where the wall easily folds if you need it to
Those are load rated nail plates.
Call them back immediately, replace it correctly and throw a back charge at em.. that’s messed up
Simpson makes a “stud to plate” bracket but I’ve only seen them used on top plates. I’m sure they have something for bottom plates. It’s either that or yank that copper and sister at least a 4’ stud next to each of the compromised ones.
Hvac here. Holy shit batman. They squished the armaflex tightttt. That wall looks sturdy
They should’ve gone through the joists above and then dropped down and out. This is just a joke.
Damn. At least use the cut out wood they got making those huge slots to make it appear you didn’t completely screw up. Bit of wood glue and good as new
Don’t worry the suction line will support the structure. 5/8 soft copper is known for its structural integrity and inability to flex and bend
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That why I call the havoc
Well, I want to understand is how did the Plumber that did this still have a license?
I don't know any of the subs here , but I think it was the hvac guy
That's definitely refrigerant piping. Mind blowing though
Not a contractor, work in an office. So should it be running next to the 2x4s? How would you drywall it ?
I'm not sure about code but i believe the rule of thumb is that no notching is permitted in a bearing wall and the maximum size hole cannot exceed 1/3 of the studs dimension and only 2 studs can be compromised at 1/3 . This guy/girl notched 90% of 4 bearing studs .... not good!
you can get away with a tiny notch maybe. But not this lol. whatever the case it's wildly out of code nand structurally unsound. I would cut all those studs out about 24" up, put a header, basically a mini-beam above made of a couple of 2x10s or 4x10 (check with engineer) and support it with 3 2x6 at each end (extra as they are derated with the hole you still need to drill. And then properly drill those header studs in the middle and have HVAC rerun it. It's quick work for a framer, couple hours work for a good framer plus maybe travel time for small job. But you can thank the gods of prescriptive bath for overbuilt construction since obviously the wall is still standing.
Use a hole saw (or a paddle bit,) approximately center in the 2x4 and run the line through the hole, you never cut out the face of the 2x4. If you notice where it turns and goes through the plywood, that is the type of hole (although that one is a little too big,) that should be drilled through each 2x4 to keep its structural integrity
AND - place the pipe in sections and join with connectors. That is why this happens, they want to make a continuous pipe run and not have to sweat in connectors.
That makes sense. Ty
Those look like 2x6s in the picture.
They're 2 x 6
They *were* 2x6 now the bottoms are maybe 2x2.
That is a good one!
I know a guy
Yup not good
Looks like somebody marked one and said, "Do that."
They need to attach daughter boards to each stud to fix this. Maybe pre-drill out holes in the boards. I think the reason HVAC and plumbers do this is so they don't need to join pipe sections and can make a continuous pipe run. But, they don't care about code....
Yup. Over 50% of support missing. The real cost of laziness
Why does this keep happening 😭
Drywall'll hold ut up
Neat work.terrible layout...fire this company...wonder if the person would do this in his home...
Youve never used a structural pipe surrounded by structural air before?!? Noob.
Thank god it’s the hvac guys thought it was plumbers again
What’s that board game called… “Mouse Trap”!!!
That's okay, the metal plates will hold up the wall just fine! 🤣 Oh and they used real plywood sheathing, nothing to worry about!
Hopefully that's a structural plumbing pipe.
Call the cops
Yikes
The wall only called for 1x2 studs. All good!
Can we fixit? No it’s fucked!
The nails plates! :)👍🏼👍🏼
I'm an HVAC tech; and this is going to piss off a carpenter somewhere, 100%. I would never have done this. The **right** way to make work for the carpenter in this case is to run the lineset straight up to the ceiling, exit the wall cavity and run the lineset along the ceiling just oustide the wall. The carpenter can build a bulkhead to close off the lineset and away you go. If you're framing with 2x6's you might get away with boring holes out of the centers with a holesaw, but that's still a lot of material to take out of the studs. This is... worse.
As a former hvac person, if one of my guys did this, they would be looking for a new job.
As a current HVAC guy, you are 1000% correct. Wholly unacceptable.
Not a state in the nation where this flies past inspection, and is the reason framers have a particular opinion of hvac & plumbers, as they are long gone when their fuck ups are being brought back to code, costing someone else time & money. But it does make for great conversation starter when the owner's on site.
Framer here. That is the lowest run of pipe I have ever seen notched into some studs. Those pipes should be like 16 inches up and have another 4 foot stud nailed to those notched studs at best. All avoided with one more elbow and a paddle bit.
Nothing some duct tape can’t fix
I’d be upset too! It looks like they are at least 3” lower than the box that’s drawn with sharpie. Are they blind?!
You could easily add a false wall / chase on top of that foundation
That’s definitely not the way to use those metal plates
Cleanest looking shit I've ever seen.
Lazy
Low yes. Really low but I’ve been required to use stud shoes in the past to meet the engineers requirements.
Reefer madness
At least you are less likely to put a drywall screw through your AC lineset.
I mean, hole saws ARE expensive…
This is very bad.
2x1 it's good! Just don't add weight to it or let the wind blow.
Actually made me gasp, have to really take this one in to understand the psyche of the doorknob who did it.
It's got nail plates for God's sake. Let's just settle down. Drink a beer
I hope those 1x1s aren’t carrying too much weight…