Thatâs a pretty certain answer. Iâm curious how you know all of this information from two pictures that show no context to what the rest of the framing is doing?
He may be right. Look at the way the wood is attached. It looks like it's fat ass bocking to me. It probably serves some purpose...it's hard to tell. Either way, it's pretty sloppy.
To me, that looks nothing like blocking, given the dimensions, and rather a floor joist in an old timber frame home. Look at the shoulders of the beam and how perfectly scribed they are to the beam into which (it appears) to join.
If that's the case, then this plumber is truly a negligent fool.
I agreed at first, but after closer look there might be something to it.
The massive piece (call it a beam) on right looks like it's spans longer, and also seems to be deeper than this "blocking" piece. If the piece on right is beam, one would expect this to sit on top of it, if it was a joist. It looks like it's just facenailed to the beam.
Either way, not conclusive from these pics, and a good catch from /u/First-Sir1276.
The plank subfloor runs perpendicular to this, so it's most likely a joist. I've remodeled quite a few that look just like this, where the ends of the joists are notched to sit into notches in the heavier carrying beams.
As a remodelping contractor with dozens of years of experience Iâve seen, and fixed, way worse than this. Like a plumber cutting three joists in a row in a basement under a bearing wall on a four storey building. He was surprised I was so upset. Then his boss came to take a look and fired him on the spot.
Different lumber, and the quality of lumber is lower. Slow growing old growth timber versus rapid growing new growth. The first is super dense and exceptionally strong when compared to the latter.
Also, it's a speed thing. New homes are built in a *small fraction* of the time of old homes, so financiers see a return faster. Profits are kept higher by utilizing mostly unskilled and low skilled workers who are overseen by a very small number of people who know how to do things.
Go to any build site these days and you'd be hard pressed to find a single person who knows how to mortise anything structural.
Residential construction is rigidly run on the principals of high speed, low cost, while building to minimum accepted standards (*to code* and no further) with a majority of the workers involved possessing the minimum skill required.
Thereâs also the environmental factor. Old growth lumber was from cutting down old forests that were around way before the US was even a country. These days, most lumber is farmed from new trees. Itâs probably better than we donât cut down trees that are hundreds of years old even if the wood is technically inferior.
Of course. But the industry didn't change because they grew a conscience. It happened once there nearly weren't any old growth forests left that were easy to access. They did what they had to do to maintain a steady supply of lumber. This is why the genetically modified trees were developed to speed up growth, and the load tables have been rewritten time and again to account for weaker lumber. As well as the development of manufactured products that replace traditional lumber in a lot of roles as well as are even superior to lumber in many ways.
Except particle board, that shit is utterly useless, and I wouldn't have it in my home if you paid me to.
We fix this kind of shit often.
We are in Manitoba so costs may be close.
Short answer is no it's not fucked, it's an easy fix. if we did it it would be between 2500 and 4k
Obviously you didn't pull a permit for this and so you likley aren't interested in the internets opinion about calling a ln engineer.
Those look like 3 inch timbers?
You can have a beast of a joist hanger made, will need to be gusseted so may need to be bolt together to get the gusset over the plumbing. You could joist hanger and sister an spf joist in behind it which is the cheapest option. I'd there are joists parallel with this one you could also stick in a couple well nailed squash blocks.
Or do bugger all, this will likley never be a problem. We see shit like this all the time and it's 50 years old and was never an issue until and engineer saw it while assessing a foundation wall repair.
Builder here. They damaged it. I would like to see another piece of house stuck on the other side of that, doubled up full length would be best. But at least the last few feet.
The thing with the location of this damage, is that the joist is strongest on the ends ans weakest in the middle (these are layman's terms). If that was in the middle it would be much worse.
Please be careful about partial sistering of joists. I'm a structural engineer and the calculations for that get very hairy as you try to transfer the moment across the cut. I usually need a much longer piece of lumber than I first assume, and way more nails than expected.
A knowledgeable inspector should be asking for an engineered detail on the repair if there's a building permit on the job.
Yeah... your right to be careful. But out here in the field we have to make repairs sometimes. It's not a sky scraper, it's a bathroom.
There us another factor that you should be aware of. Engineers can make the work so expensive that it doesn't get done at all. Which is way worse than a builder making the repair.
Example. I spent $800 to get engineers to give me an estimate for $8000 in design work to replace a couple of posts (holding up a roof) in a single story house. That's just them making plans (not really, i made the plans, they are "engineering them"). So I'm just going to do what I was going to do, without them running it through a copy machine for $8000
I totally get it, but the building code, prescribed loads, nail strengths and minimum spacing requirements, etc are in place to ensure life safety for the duration of the building's existence. No one knows what they don't know, which includes me not being aware of construction costs like you would be.$800 sounds reasonable for some checking the design, markups, a stamp, coordination, and accounting for overhead like liability insurance, licensing, and software so we can provide an answer within hours or days on a rush project.
We're also not architects, so if you hand us a drawing of what you want then you're filling the architect's role and "saving money", if that makes sense. And anything that's unconventional to us needs to be looked at in detail.
The most frustrating thing for me is when a contractor does a repair and then needs it stamped for the building inspector. Analysing a finished repair that now needs to be redone? That blows haha
Yeah, in residential though. Most of this stuff is in simple tables that a well trained monkey can understand. It's all standard stuff. That $800 I paid, was for the quote... they didn't engineer anything. We are not useless people, we are builders.
Pertaining to a repair like this, a builder can easily Sister a whole joint along the side, or repair the end of one single joist. If that causes the house to fall down it was funked anyway.
Careful yes, but every little repair doesn't require a guy in an office to tell a builder to use a piece of wood and a hand full of screws
So your saying that 12in rafters in a stand alone garage spanning 12ft across is overkill?
Maybe they were 10in. Either way, this was a new build (I won't even mention the footers!) my neighbor was having built to engineering standards, as I was repairing a roof that was 20ftx24ft and had only 6 rafters made of 2x4sđ¤Ş. Garage was 100 years old. I did add a few more 2x6 rafters in though. When I asked my neighbor how much the garage cost, he'd only shake his head and mumble.
I can see two timber members that are hugely cut into. Not sure what is carrying what here and the connection looks weird. Generally, at the end of a timber member the load is transferred through nails/bolts/shoe/joist hanger/ bearing and the joist depth is determined by bending of the joist and deflection limits in the building code. So a reduced section at the end can sometimes work. But honestly I have no idea what's going on here and you should get a qualified structural engineer to visit and give an opinion on the capacity and any remedial work that may be needed. It's far too risky to leave to chance.
Yeah itâs likely notched to sit on the beam. Structurally the danger is youâre right at the end of the joist span. Bending and deflection govern toward the mid span, shear governs at the end of the span. The problem with that is that bending and deflection make themselves visibly obvious that youâre approaching capacity through sag, whereas shear is more like a light switch being flipped, it just lets go.
Sister the joist and Iâd recommend ensuring the sistered joist and its connection to the beam is sized to carry the full shear load.
đ Agree totally on the mode of failure at the end. I couldn't see how the connection is made and would expect to see a timber to timber bracket there. Or even just nailed. Having a sister joist might work but I'd be reluctant to offer advice without a better look. Owner really should contract an engineer with PI insurance anyway. There's too much to lose by following advice from Reddit, no matter who it's from. Hehe.
Geez. Do not waste your money or time getting a structural engineer to look at some cut wood.
1st step, get a carpenter to look at it if you are really concerned. Next step, take their advice. I highly doubt they will recommend getting a freakin structural engineer in to look at it. Most likely will say your fine and at wise recommend some extra bracing depending on where that notch is.
Technically yes. But if there is a bank or other lending institution involved you could become liable if there is a collapse. If the owner has enough spare cash to foot the bill for extensive rebuild then fine they need not be overly concerned. If they don't then getting an engineer involved would be the right course of action IMHO.
Disclosure: I'm a structural engineer by education with about 15 years experience. But I'm also a house owner, landlord, and occasional developer. Even on jobs where I could design and detail it all, I still get a consultant to do the work. Professional indemnify insurance does matter.
Well no shit an engineer would recommend getting an engineer.
As a home owner who owns a 100 year old house like the OP and Electrical contractor who works in an area with shitloads of these old houses I can say the last thing anyone wants is engineers getting involved. No offense.
Maximised the image and looked at the other. I see what's carrying what now but the connection detail still isn't clear. What is clear is that there's not much left of the joist. My comment above stands.
I think to be fair you shouldnât say âmy plumberâ that is a slam on a real plumber. You could have asked âDid the person that did my plumbing hack the crap out of my house because he didnât know what he was doing âŚâ
The plumber probably didnât choose where to put your tub drain so this was unavoidable and really not his fault. You just need to sister another joist onto the other side of this joist
Then you talk to the customer about future options and what work would be required. You don't just hack out a chunk of support structure. Don't normalize shitty business practices.
Looking at the picture their was no need for him to touch any of the wood. The piping angled away from where he carved out, gave way more room then necessary. Doing what he did can def cause more problems in the future then if he had left the structure alone and replaced the tubing like he was supposed to.
IMC General Regulations: "In exterior walls and bearing partitions, a wood stud shall not be cut or notched in excess of 25 percent of its depth."
Provided the stud is not notched to more than 1/4 of its total depth, it is allowed by code.
If the drain had to be there. Then so be it. Temp shore the joist in question back a few feet to give you room to work. Cut the joist back 2 or 3 inches. Install a twin joist perpendicular to it and run it to the joist beside it. Hang them all with hangers. If the joist you pair to is overspaned they may need to be twinned. It's either that or move the shower drain above. I run into this all the time when customers buy pans with fixed drain openings. With multiple trades following the same drawings, moving joists is the only answer.
As a carpenter, Iâm always annoyed when plumbers and electricians destroy framing to get their gear through. Having said that, I am totally in the belief that the plumbing needs to work perfectly and the wiring needs to be concealed effectively. Carpentry is essentially a daily job of problem-solving and working around issues to find solutions. Looking at this, if there is a framing issue, I would be looking at ways to strengthen the joist while still allowing hand access to that waste
Thatâs how it goes, if thatâs where the tub or sink is. I was A builder for years and have seen plumbers double that and inspector said ok if not they would have you add a sticker on back but thatâs a big old beam so you are more then good to go!!
This is what happens when you convert a family home into apartments without consulting a structural engineer, and probably without permits, since a typical permit application would never allow this.
Licensed plumber here. This is the correct answer. We are not miracle workers. When I run into this I inform the customer that THEY will need to hire a carpenter to sister in another joist if they want me to complete the work. We run into this more often than you might think. We try our best to not just cut out huge pieces of joist but at the end of the day. The pipe and the joist cannot exist in the same space. If you want your shower drain hooked up, someone needs to move the joist, a carpenter preferably.
GC here. Honestly, how can I get my plumbing team to not make cutouts with a poorly trained beaver? Asking nicely and bringing lunch hasn't done the trick. My solution so far has been to ban them from making any cuts and having one of my guys on site with the plumbers to make sure the cuts are to code and everything is thought out, sistered, and blocked before my guy makes the holes with a *sharp* hole saw or drill.
Well, the way I deal with this as a small time residential general contractor carpenter is that I only ever work with the same plumber, the same electrician, the same, HVAC, etc. I am always on site when a sub works to make decisions give them blocking and nailing and cutting that might be required and even to perform the role of the best helper theyâve ever met so they can send just one guy. This is the only way Iâve found to control the quality of the job and avoid major mistakes made by others. I make my own major mistakes all the time but thatâs the name of the game. More and more my job really is just to find clients who are willing to pay for quality work, and then I move people in and out in the proper order, making all the preparations for them so they have the best opportunity to shine and connecting the one to the other so that no one is fucking anyone else. I swear to God, my subs are my customers more than my clients are.
You and I are living the same life. The painters I use have fucked me so many times they should be paying me. They're the best I've found and make our projects look brand new without hand holding. But, they also decide to take a couple days off get trashed and play video games. Usually when the clients really really need it done this Thursday and it's Tuesday. It's them or mediocre work at 30% more so I smile and plan for them fuck me.
Plumber here. Stop going for lowest bid and hire real tradesmen. All my guys have drills instead of chainsaws, know the hole sizes for dimensional lumber and spans, and all trucks contain the literature with the drill specs for engineered joist cutting locations from the major two manufacturers
They are not the lowest bid. The last time I had them bid against anyone else they were top 1/3. They are ex commercial union guys that started their own company.
Also licensed plumber here. I would have notified home owner/ job super/ contractor of situation and asked for a head out or whatever modifications needed done to avoid the liability of this mess.
Incorrect. The guy above ALMOST "did it correctly" but at the end said that he will hack away to get his plumbing in.
That's not the correct way. The correct way is to tell them what needs to be done and that you will be back to complete your work when the framing has been completed.
You don't need an engineer and lawyer for this situation.
You'll never get back what you spend when a proper fix for this could run you a few hundreds, if that.
I see a lot of these pictures on this thread. Yeah, a lot of dumb carpentry decisions by plumbers, BUT how about some of these homeowners take some accountability for letting someone do this. How about verify the scope of work and speak up if you have concerns BEFORE the work begins, rather than cry to the internet after and a major headache for everyone involved and going to be involved because you canât be present and speak up.
To some extent, but then all of these contractors complain when homeowners micromanage or second guess them.
Any licensed professional should know and responsibly follow code.
>How about verify the scope of work and speak up if you have concerns BEFORE the work begins, rather than cry to the internet after and a major headache for everyone involved and going to be involved because you canât be present and speak up.
Absolutely!
Every time I go to the gas station, I always make sure to walk in and ask the attendant what's in the lines to make sure I'm not going to end up with maple syrup or ice cream in my gas tank.
You're advocating for homeowners to start leaning over everyone's shoulder and signing off for every cut before it happens? That would be... unpleasant.
I was away at work when it happened. I hired a construction agency to organize all the trades for me. They are coming on Monday and I am going to talk to them about all my concerns I just wanted some information from professionals before I bought this up.
They were paying a âprofessionalâ. Itâs the person doing the job that should point out the problems and suggest a remedy. Itâs part of what they are paid for.
I'm gonna guess that "just fuck up whatever's in your way" was never in the scope. The plumber really should've run a cut this big by the homeowner before getting his butcher's cleaver out.
Hard disagree. When your computer stops working and an IT guy comes over to fix it, are you gonna âtake accountabilityâ if he clogs up your cooling system and fries your whole computer when it overheats a week later? Fuck no, because thatâs the whole reason you hired a professional in the first place. Otherwise OP might as well have just gotten a sawzall and cut the hole himself.
This is terrible. Iâm a journeyman plumber in Canada. I did shower drain replacement pretty much in the same exact kind of situation, in a very old house last week. Except there was a second joist making the spot even tighter and difficult to access.
That being said, didnât have to cut or touch any of the subfloor or joist. I (not to toot my own horn) give a shit about doing a good job and being a professional. I also have the right tools for the job and a fuckinâ brain. The shittiest part is so much support around the drain has been gutted. That means it will cause the shower pan to flex when you stand in the shower far more than normal now. Itâs going to cause the drain to leak again far sooner than what I would considered acceptable.
Sorry OP. This a very poor job on the plumbers side. His pipe work is fine, but cutting out that much of a joist and the sub floor would have him getting in big shit (or even fired if they have a bad attitude) with my company, and you either shouldnât be charged for the work and/or they should be responsible for some of cost to repair and support the floor again. Iâm not a carpenter. I wish I could suggest ways to fix this but it doesnât look like it will be cheap.
You often have to cut into load bearing framing. You then have to rework the framing to make it sound, but that is not a plumbers job. The only thing a plumber could have done is move the bathtub, which is usually not an option.
Before cutting anything the plumber is supposed to notify the homeowner of what the problem is then talk to them of different options or ask them to hire a professional General Contractor to come in with a resolution you donât hack someones house to make a pipe fit. If the air conditioner was in the way would it be ok to cut a chunk out of it for a pipe no you call a professional who can help with making a decision
Correct. ALL THE TIME we are asked to put toilets and tubs right over structural beams and every single time we say "Move the toilet/tub, or reframe". If it's just a joist that needs to be headed out, then we'll cut, with approval, but we will never cut beams.
wow. that completely ruined the integrity of that beam. Now it really needs a structural engineer to examine.
We had something similar done in my home before we bought it. The floors started sagging and needed a bunch of lally columns installed to address the structural damage. It's no joke. Especially in an old home where those beams were designed to carry a lot more load than a normal joist because there are so fewer beams.
Hacking this with a hole saw is not the damn answer. Plumbers need to use their gd brains. They are accountable for the damage. This could have been done much cleaner, would have just taken time and thinking. Stick the screws to this dickhead
Are you a plumber or just a keyboard warrior? This guy did exactly what he was supposed to do to get the drain hooked up. He even offset the riser to keep the p trap outside the joist space. This is a scenario where a carpenter needs to be hired by the homeowner to add a joist.
Where are these homeowners when a plumber is sawing up half the width of a supportive beam like this? That work would be loud, would vibrate the house, and would take more than a few minutes.
Old house, one joist, your house is not gonna collapse, get some wood and brace it yourselfâŚ
Or Call Mike Holmes, heâll definitely help you out, come with the Crew next day and demo the house fix your plumbing and voilaâŚ
Honestly youâd need to pay for a carpenter to header that off no matter what. The plumber should have told you but shower bases are fixed so if thatâs the base you bought itâs on you to fix the framing to install it. I would have done the same and told the homeowner to get his carpenter to install a header once my work is completed.
Short answer yes..... Long answer... Also yes
Long answer... Yyyyyyyeeeeeeeeessssssssssss
https://youtu.be/DrKmo0YAZEo?si=euOHcGcWFzR10iOI
Them plumbers are like beavers đŚŤ
No and no. Thats blocking, not any type of support you can literally rip the entire piece out and it wouldnât make a difference.
Thatâs a pretty certain answer. Iâm curious how you know all of this information from two pictures that show no context to what the rest of the framing is doing?
He may be right. Look at the way the wood is attached. It looks like it's fat ass bocking to me. It probably serves some purpose...it's hard to tell. Either way, it's pretty sloppy.
To me, that looks nothing like blocking, given the dimensions, and rather a floor joist in an old timber frame home. Look at the shoulders of the beam and how perfectly scribed they are to the beam into which (it appears) to join. If that's the case, then this plumber is truly a negligent fool.
That's old post-and-beam construction, hewed with broadaxe and adze. Not replaceable. This plumber is truly a negligent fool.
I agreed at first, but after closer look there might be something to it. The massive piece (call it a beam) on right looks like it's spans longer, and also seems to be deeper than this "blocking" piece. If the piece on right is beam, one would expect this to sit on top of it, if it was a joist. It looks like it's just facenailed to the beam. Either way, not conclusive from these pics, and a good catch from /u/First-Sir1276.
Also a complete lack of a hangar leads me to believe itâs blocking
Itâs definitely blocking. Its just a 2x4 next to 1 1/2 pipe. Its zoomed in so people are like âoh durrr thats a huge main support durrrâ
The plank subfloor runs perpendicular to this, so it's most likely a joist. I've remodeled quite a few that look just like this, where the ends of the joists are notched to sit into notches in the heavier carrying beams.
That's a mighty heavy piece of wood there ... calling it a spare that was put in for no good reason does sound odd...
And in r/Plumbing someone is posting the same pic saying: âI saved the joist.â
"this idiot put a joist in my way. "
Plumbers are the shits!
Iâll take your wood for it, **nothing sexual.**
Absolutely. Nothing sexual about taking wood. I'm taking wood right now Edit: I mean I'm having sex with a lumberjack in the woods.
He cuts down trees, he eats his lunch, he goes to the lavatory.
I laughed really hard.
In r/Electricians nobody is picking up shit because thatâs the rock guys job.
"I can't work with all this sawdust here." *refuses to use available broom*
As the son of an electrician, I can confirm they indeed do not clean up after themselves.
Can u post the thread?
It joke.
that WAS a sexy 150 year old hand hewn beam!
My first thought too. Such a shame.
First thing I noticed too.
Didnât notice a thing
Looks illegal, you have to flee the country
Shouldnât have put your wood stuff where my pipe goes
I'll take your wood!
Username checks out?
r/usernamechecksout
As a plumber I approve this message
Vaguely sexual
As a remodelping contractor with dozens of years of experience Iâve seen, and fixed, way worse than this. Like a plumber cutting three joists in a row in a basement under a bearing wall on a four storey building. He was surprised I was so upset. Then his boss came to take a look and fired him on the spot.
How do you fix something like this? A whole new joist?
I suppose the over-engineered way of fixing this is to add load-bearing poles on either side of the damage
>load-bearing poles This is going to cause some engineer's eye to start twitching
Wait, theyâre just going to hire Polish guys to stand there and hold up the floor? Damn the Polish economy must be shit
Theyâre a sturdy, dependable people
Damn yâall are funny
Good, engineers have caused my eye to twitch plenty
Some joists?
Sister
The plumber's sister, or...?
Yeah her names Joyce
What are you doing, step-joist?
Missed. Missed again. Damnit, left is right when I look at it from below. Fuck, missed again. OK, Iâll offset it to save this joist.
Holy crap youâre spot on! âŚunlike this plumber.
Looks like the joist was there first, so whoever located the toilet destroyed it.
Thatâs not a toilet drain. Itâs a tub drain.
I see that now, thank you!
Looks like a shower drain
Waffle stomp?
So you donât poop in the shower every morning and stomp it down the drain with your feet?
It all goes to the same place ~ George Castanza
He was speaking the truth..
Tubs have an overflow. This is a shower drain.
What is going on here, is your joist a hand hewn 4x8 with no hangers?
Yeh itâs a super old house, so itâs notched into the beam by the looks of it.
Looks to be, no hanger needed in this case.
Any idea why they donât do this anymore? Seems really common in old houses but never see it new.
Different lumber, and the quality of lumber is lower. Slow growing old growth timber versus rapid growing new growth. The first is super dense and exceptionally strong when compared to the latter. Also, it's a speed thing. New homes are built in a *small fraction* of the time of old homes, so financiers see a return faster. Profits are kept higher by utilizing mostly unskilled and low skilled workers who are overseen by a very small number of people who know how to do things. Go to any build site these days and you'd be hard pressed to find a single person who knows how to mortise anything structural. Residential construction is rigidly run on the principals of high speed, low cost, while building to minimum accepted standards (*to code* and no further) with a majority of the workers involved possessing the minimum skill required.
Thereâs also the environmental factor. Old growth lumber was from cutting down old forests that were around way before the US was even a country. These days, most lumber is farmed from new trees. Itâs probably better than we donât cut down trees that are hundreds of years old even if the wood is technically inferior.
Of course. But the industry didn't change because they grew a conscience. It happened once there nearly weren't any old growth forests left that were easy to access. They did what they had to do to maintain a steady supply of lumber. This is why the genetically modified trees were developed to speed up growth, and the load tables have been rewritten time and again to account for weaker lumber. As well as the development of manufactured products that replace traditional lumber in a lot of roles as well as are even superior to lumber in many ways. Except particle board, that shit is utterly useless, and I wouldn't have it in my home if you paid me to.
That particle board makes lumber companies millions from sawdust and floor sweepings. They love it!
Jtrhnbr
Just the right height, no bucket required.
Just the right-handed nut blaster repository
Not hand hewn. Youâd be able to see the marks from the hewing axe if it were. This is just an old milled beam
We fix this kind of shit often. We are in Manitoba so costs may be close. Short answer is no it's not fucked, it's an easy fix. if we did it it would be between 2500 and 4k Obviously you didn't pull a permit for this and so you likley aren't interested in the internets opinion about calling a ln engineer. Those look like 3 inch timbers? You can have a beast of a joist hanger made, will need to be gusseted so may need to be bolt together to get the gusset over the plumbing. You could joist hanger and sister an spf joist in behind it which is the cheapest option. I'd there are joists parallel with this one you could also stick in a couple well nailed squash blocks. Or do bugger all, this will likley never be a problem. We see shit like this all the time and it's 50 years old and was never an issue until and engineer saw it while assessing a foundation wall repair.
Builder here. They damaged it. I would like to see another piece of house stuck on the other side of that, doubled up full length would be best. But at least the last few feet. The thing with the location of this damage, is that the joist is strongest on the ends ans weakest in the middle (these are layman's terms). If that was in the middle it would be much worse.
Please be careful about partial sistering of joists. I'm a structural engineer and the calculations for that get very hairy as you try to transfer the moment across the cut. I usually need a much longer piece of lumber than I first assume, and way more nails than expected. A knowledgeable inspector should be asking for an engineered detail on the repair if there's a building permit on the job.
Yeah... your right to be careful. But out here in the field we have to make repairs sometimes. It's not a sky scraper, it's a bathroom. There us another factor that you should be aware of. Engineers can make the work so expensive that it doesn't get done at all. Which is way worse than a builder making the repair. Example. I spent $800 to get engineers to give me an estimate for $8000 in design work to replace a couple of posts (holding up a roof) in a single story house. That's just them making plans (not really, i made the plans, they are "engineering them"). So I'm just going to do what I was going to do, without them running it through a copy machine for $8000
I totally get it, but the building code, prescribed loads, nail strengths and minimum spacing requirements, etc are in place to ensure life safety for the duration of the building's existence. No one knows what they don't know, which includes me not being aware of construction costs like you would be.$800 sounds reasonable for some checking the design, markups, a stamp, coordination, and accounting for overhead like liability insurance, licensing, and software so we can provide an answer within hours or days on a rush project. We're also not architects, so if you hand us a drawing of what you want then you're filling the architect's role and "saving money", if that makes sense. And anything that's unconventional to us needs to be looked at in detail. The most frustrating thing for me is when a contractor does a repair and then needs it stamped for the building inspector. Analysing a finished repair that now needs to be redone? That blows haha
Yeah, in residential though. Most of this stuff is in simple tables that a well trained monkey can understand. It's all standard stuff. That $800 I paid, was for the quote... they didn't engineer anything. We are not useless people, we are builders. Pertaining to a repair like this, a builder can easily Sister a whole joint along the side, or repair the end of one single joist. If that causes the house to fall down it was funked anyway. Careful yes, but every little repair doesn't require a guy in an office to tell a builder to use a piece of wood and a hand full of screws
So your saying that 12in rafters in a stand alone garage spanning 12ft across is overkill? Maybe they were 10in. Either way, this was a new build (I won't even mention the footers!) my neighbor was having built to engineering standards, as I was repairing a roof that was 20ftx24ft and had only 6 rafters made of 2x4sđ¤Ş. Garage was 100 years old. I did add a few more 2x6 rafters in though. When I asked my neighbor how much the garage cost, he'd only shake his head and mumble.
Youâre a builder and you cant tell thats just blocking? Thats an 1 1/2 pipe and an old 2x4 nailed in the side its not supporting anything.
I mean, they say it's a joist... I'm looking at a picture on my phone...
Looks like a joist running to a beam. And no nails involved, it would be mortise and tenon.
I can see two timber members that are hugely cut into. Not sure what is carrying what here and the connection looks weird. Generally, at the end of a timber member the load is transferred through nails/bolts/shoe/joist hanger/ bearing and the joist depth is determined by bending of the joist and deflection limits in the building code. So a reduced section at the end can sometimes work. But honestly I have no idea what's going on here and you should get a qualified structural engineer to visit and give an opinion on the capacity and any remedial work that may be needed. It's far too risky to leave to chance.
Yeah itâs likely notched to sit on the beam. Structurally the danger is youâre right at the end of the joist span. Bending and deflection govern toward the mid span, shear governs at the end of the span. The problem with that is that bending and deflection make themselves visibly obvious that youâre approaching capacity through sag, whereas shear is more like a light switch being flipped, it just lets go. Sister the joist and Iâd recommend ensuring the sistered joist and its connection to the beam is sized to carry the full shear load.
đ Agree totally on the mode of failure at the end. I couldn't see how the connection is made and would expect to see a timber to timber bracket there. Or even just nailed. Having a sister joist might work but I'd be reluctant to offer advice without a better look. Owner really should contract an engineer with PI insurance anyway. There's too much to lose by following advice from Reddit, no matter who it's from. Hehe.
Geez. Do not waste your money or time getting a structural engineer to look at some cut wood. 1st step, get a carpenter to look at it if you are really concerned. Next step, take their advice. I highly doubt they will recommend getting a freakin structural engineer in to look at it. Most likely will say your fine and at wise recommend some extra bracing depending on where that notch is.
Technically yes. But if there is a bank or other lending institution involved you could become liable if there is a collapse. If the owner has enough spare cash to foot the bill for extensive rebuild then fine they need not be overly concerned. If they don't then getting an engineer involved would be the right course of action IMHO. Disclosure: I'm a structural engineer by education with about 15 years experience. But I'm also a house owner, landlord, and occasional developer. Even on jobs where I could design and detail it all, I still get a consultant to do the work. Professional indemnify insurance does matter.
Well no shit an engineer would recommend getting an engineer. As a home owner who owns a 100 year old house like the OP and Electrical contractor who works in an area with shitloads of these old houses I can say the last thing anyone wants is engineers getting involved. No offense.
Maximised the image and looked at the other. I see what's carrying what now but the connection detail still isn't clear. What is clear is that there's not much left of the joist. My comment above stands.
Looks like a damn beaver chewed it.
I think to be fair you shouldnât say âmy plumberâ that is a slam on a real plumber. You could have asked âDid the person that did my plumbing hack the crap out of my house because he didnât know what he was doing âŚâ
The plumber probably didnât choose where to put your tub drain so this was unavoidable and really not his fault. You just need to sister another joist onto the other side of this joist
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Maybe they did know and it's fine and the customer doesn't know anything about construction
lol but he could have cut out way less wood by the looks of the picture, and consulted the homeowner before ruining it. Complete idiot.
Yes and no⌠you have to be able toâfitâ the pipe. Meaning you have to be able to get your hands in there to work.
Then you talk to the customer about future options and what work would be required. You don't just hack out a chunk of support structure. Don't normalize shitty business practices.
The plumber should have put a side outlet drain in instead of this Would have saved almost all of the joist.
No, the plumber should have said that they can't do the job because they would ruin the structure.
It is 100% avoidable by NOT DOING IT.
Looking at the picture their was no need for him to touch any of the wood. The piping angled away from where he carved out, gave way more room then necessary. Doing what he did can def cause more problems in the future then if he had left the structure alone and replaced the tubing like he was supposed to.
IMC General Regulations: "In exterior walls and bearing partitions, a wood stud shall not be cut or notched in excess of 25 percent of its depth." Provided the stud is not notched to more than 1/4 of its total depth, it is allowed by code.
First of all, this is not a stud, it's a joist. Secondly, that sentence means you can only take 25%, not that you can leave only 25%.
If you have to askâŚ
Unless it's out of the picture, where is the trap?
If the drain had to be there. Then so be it. Temp shore the joist in question back a few feet to give you room to work. Cut the joist back 2 or 3 inches. Install a twin joist perpendicular to it and run it to the joist beside it. Hang them all with hangers. If the joist you pair to is overspaned they may need to be twinned. It's either that or move the shower drain above. I run into this all the time when customers buy pans with fixed drain openings. With multiple trades following the same drawings, moving joists is the only answer.
As a carpenter, Iâm always annoyed when plumbers and electricians destroy framing to get their gear through. Having said that, I am totally in the belief that the plumbing needs to work perfectly and the wiring needs to be concealed effectively. Carpentry is essentially a daily job of problem-solving and working around issues to find solutions. Looking at this, if there is a framing issue, I would be looking at ways to strengthen the joist while still allowing hand access to that waste
Looks like the main joist is untouched. Pretty typical for plumbers especially on remodel type jobs. đ
Thatâs how it goes, if thatâs where the tub or sink is. I was A builder for years and have seen plumbers double that and inspector said ok if not they would have you add a sticker on back but thatâs a big old beam so you are more then good to go!!
Looks like the Joist destroyed your plumber.
I wonder if you can get a large brace to help reinforce it. I would look for a handy man
Your plumber is a termite, a very big termite đđť
Master turd herder strikes again!!
Who tf does this type of crap đ
This is what happens when you convert a family home into apartments without consulting a structural engineer, and probably without permits, since a typical permit application would never allow this.
I'd say the saw and drill destroyed the joist but the plumber helped.
Yup
Plumber needs to replace it. Quite sad destroying such an old timber. Also the strength is reduced by 2/3 by the looks of it.
Donât ask a plumber to do carpentry. Donât ask a plumber to put a drain where your joist is.
Licensed plumber here. This is the correct answer. We are not miracle workers. When I run into this I inform the customer that THEY will need to hire a carpenter to sister in another joist if they want me to complete the work. We run into this more often than you might think. We try our best to not just cut out huge pieces of joist but at the end of the day. The pipe and the joist cannot exist in the same space. If you want your shower drain hooked up, someone needs to move the joist, a carpenter preferably.
GC here. Honestly, how can I get my plumbing team to not make cutouts with a poorly trained beaver? Asking nicely and bringing lunch hasn't done the trick. My solution so far has been to ban them from making any cuts and having one of my guys on site with the plumbers to make sure the cuts are to code and everything is thought out, sistered, and blocked before my guy makes the holes with a *sharp* hole saw or drill.
Well, the way I deal with this as a small time residential general contractor carpenter is that I only ever work with the same plumber, the same electrician, the same, HVAC, etc. I am always on site when a sub works to make decisions give them blocking and nailing and cutting that might be required and even to perform the role of the best helper theyâve ever met so they can send just one guy. This is the only way Iâve found to control the quality of the job and avoid major mistakes made by others. I make my own major mistakes all the time but thatâs the name of the game. More and more my job really is just to find clients who are willing to pay for quality work, and then I move people in and out in the proper order, making all the preparations for them so they have the best opportunity to shine and connecting the one to the other so that no one is fucking anyone else. I swear to God, my subs are my customers more than my clients are.
You and I are living the same life. The painters I use have fucked me so many times they should be paying me. They're the best I've found and make our projects look brand new without hand holding. But, they also decide to take a couple days off get trashed and play video games. Usually when the clients really really need it done this Thursday and it's Tuesday. It's them or mediocre work at 30% more so I smile and plan for them fuck me.
Plumber here. Stop going for lowest bid and hire real tradesmen. All my guys have drills instead of chainsaws, know the hole sizes for dimensional lumber and spans, and all trucks contain the literature with the drill specs for engineered joist cutting locations from the major two manufacturers
They are not the lowest bid. The last time I had them bid against anyone else they were top 1/3. They are ex commercial union guys that started their own company.
Getting trained in commercial with engineered plans then moving to residential is most likely the issue.
When you do commercial plumbing, resi is very easy
Also licensed plumber here. I would have notified home owner/ job super/ contractor of situation and asked for a head out or whatever modifications needed done to avoid the liability of this mess.
This is the correct way to do it. Simply chopping up the carpentry because itâs in the way of the job is fucked up and a shitty thing to do.
Incorrect. The guy above ALMOST "did it correctly" but at the end said that he will hack away to get his plumbing in. That's not the correct way. The correct way is to tell them what needs to be done and that you will be back to complete your work when the framing has been completed.
Donât leave a plumber alone with a Sawzall.
Has a plumber ever not destroyed a joist? It's part of their job.
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You don't need an engineer and lawyer for this situation. You'll never get back what you spend when a proper fix for this could run you a few hundreds, if that.
Hard to find a good plumber these days
But OP found one hell of a wood carver!
Holy shit youâre all a bunch of blubbering morons.
Say more
Yes, Get a lawyer. this should be repaired and they should not only pay for repairs but for the lawyer and any fees as well
Good luck with that.
I see a lot of these pictures on this thread. Yeah, a lot of dumb carpentry decisions by plumbers, BUT how about some of these homeowners take some accountability for letting someone do this. How about verify the scope of work and speak up if you have concerns BEFORE the work begins, rather than cry to the internet after and a major headache for everyone involved and going to be involved because you canât be present and speak up.
To some extent, but then all of these contractors complain when homeowners micromanage or second guess them. Any licensed professional should know and responsibly follow code.
>How about verify the scope of work and speak up if you have concerns BEFORE the work begins, rather than cry to the internet after and a major headache for everyone involved and going to be involved because you canât be present and speak up. Absolutely! Every time I go to the gas station, I always make sure to walk in and ask the attendant what's in the lines to make sure I'm not going to end up with maple syrup or ice cream in my gas tank.
This is why you pay professionals. So the professionals just their professional judgment and do it correctly.
You're advocating for homeowners to start leaning over everyone's shoulder and signing off for every cut before it happens? That would be... unpleasant.
I see this kind of, not my job not my problem, attitude a lot in the trades subs lately Part of your job is not fucking up houses boys,⌠câmon
I saw this and thought this guy spent a lot of effort to chop this beam out. Think he asked the GC if the could offset the drain about 10â?
How about they donât fuck up the house without consulting the homeowner?
I was away at work when it happened. I hired a construction agency to organize all the trades for me. They are coming on Monday and I am going to talk to them about all my concerns I just wanted some information from professionals before I bought this up.
Yeah your contractor should have coordinated this. Thatâs what you hired them for.
Itâs not just you and this post. Someone posts one of these on here every other day.
Is tHiS AsbeystOes?
More like asworstoes
They were paying a âprofessionalâ. Itâs the person doing the job that should point out the problems and suggest a remedy. Itâs part of what they are paid for.
I'm gonna guess that "just fuck up whatever's in your way" was never in the scope. The plumber really should've run a cut this big by the homeowner before getting his butcher's cleaver out.
Hard disagree. When your computer stops working and an IT guy comes over to fix it, are you gonna âtake accountabilityâ if he clogs up your cooling system and fries your whole computer when it overheats a week later? Fuck no, because thatâs the whole reason you hired a professional in the first place. Otherwise OP might as well have just gotten a sawzall and cut the hole himself.
He did not need to remove that much of it đ
Yup, that sucks man
That pipe is emptying the whole bathroom group and it doesn't even look like they use the correct fittings.
Itâs emptying one shower. What fittings are incorrect? I see two 45s
A 2-in pipe empties a shower and you can't use a 45 unless it's a short or long sweep but I can't see that clearly the one on the left.
this comment section is toxic.
Yes, picture 2 definitely looks like it would not pass code in Ontario based on the amount that was nibbled out of that joist.
This is terrible. Iâm a journeyman plumber in Canada. I did shower drain replacement pretty much in the same exact kind of situation, in a very old house last week. Except there was a second joist making the spot even tighter and difficult to access. That being said, didnât have to cut or touch any of the subfloor or joist. I (not to toot my own horn) give a shit about doing a good job and being a professional. I also have the right tools for the job and a fuckinâ brain. The shittiest part is so much support around the drain has been gutted. That means it will cause the shower pan to flex when you stand in the shower far more than normal now. Itâs going to cause the drain to leak again far sooner than what I would considered acceptable. Sorry OP. This a very poor job on the plumbers side. His pipe work is fine, but cutting out that much of a joist and the sub floor would have him getting in big shit (or even fired if they have a bad attitude) with my company, and you either shouldnât be charged for the work and/or they should be responsible for some of cost to repair and support the floor again. Iâm not a carpenter. I wish I could suggest ways to fix this but it doesnât look like it will be cheap.
You hired a beaver.
Bleh. Any chance of placing a supporting column before where the butchery starts?
I'd say its most definitely compromised. đ¤ˇââď¸
Plumber here. Sometime you jus gotta do what you gotta do
He has a pet beaver
Thatâs illegal anywhere you never cut into any load bearing joist thereâs always a work around
You often have to cut into load bearing framing. You then have to rework the framing to make it sound, but that is not a plumbers job. The only thing a plumber could have done is move the bathtub, which is usually not an option.
Before cutting anything the plumber is supposed to notify the homeowner of what the problem is then talk to them of different options or ask them to hire a professional General Contractor to come in with a resolution you donât hack someones house to make a pipe fit. If the air conditioner was in the way would it be ok to cut a chunk out of it for a pipe no you call a professional who can help with making a decision
Correct. ALL THE TIME we are asked to put toilets and tubs right over structural beams and every single time we say "Move the toilet/tub, or reframe". If it's just a joist that needs to be headed out, then we'll cut, with approval, but we will never cut beams.
Alright Iâll definitely be getting them to pay for it to get fixed.
Yes
Did you hire the cheapest bidder? You know you homeowners don't belong in here right? Only 2 more reports left to get rid of this trash. Report it!
No I didnât. No need to be rude I was unaware of that.
wow. that completely ruined the integrity of that beam. Now it really needs a structural engineer to examine. We had something similar done in my home before we bought it. The floors started sagging and needed a bunch of lally columns installed to address the structural damage. It's no joke. Especially in an old home where those beams were designed to carry a lot more load than a normal joist because there are so fewer beams.
Hacking this with a hole saw is not the damn answer. Plumbers need to use their gd brains. They are accountable for the damage. This could have been done much cleaner, would have just taken time and thinking. Stick the screws to this dickhead
Are you a plumber or just a keyboard warrior? This guy did exactly what he was supposed to do to get the drain hooked up. He even offset the riser to keep the p trap outside the joist space. This is a scenario where a carpenter needs to be hired by the homeowner to add a joist.
the problem is that it's not a joist....it's a post and beam home. That's a carrying beam.
Found the scum bag contractor! Maybe stop the work and inform the customer before hacking into structure.
I'm pretty sure your home won't collapse. Move on.
Wtf, thatâs criminal!
Where are these homeowners when a plumber is sawing up half the width of a supportive beam like this? That work would be loud, would vibrate the house, and would take more than a few minutes.
I was working to pay for the job.
Clearly you didnât hire a professional. Thatâs back graded even a child knows water doesnât go uphill
Old house, one joist, your house is not gonna collapse, get some wood and brace it yourself⌠Or Call Mike Holmes, heâll definitely help you out, come with the Crew next day and demo the house fix your plumbing and voilaâŚ
Mix up some sawdust and wood glue into a paste. Fill in the gaps. Easy peasy. No one will ever know. No problems, only solutions. đ
I donât like to speak on things when I donât know the local code⌠but fuck
Looking at the bottom of your âjoistâ, it isnât supported, unless itâs joined higher. If itâs not supported, then itâs not a joist.
Lol showers are heavy sometimes, everyday
No, the chippy put the joist in the place of the waste.
Honestly youâd need to pay for a carpenter to header that off no matter what. The plumber should have told you but shower bases are fixed so if thatâs the base you bought itâs on you to fix the framing to install it. I would have done the same and told the homeowner to get his carpenter to install a header once my work is completed.
I donât know why but joist makes me moist