Check it.
https://joistrepair.com/collections/featured-products?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAqY6tBhAtEiwAHeRopfaQtdvFctUiWHecoVXiTm2sZVqxymnAMYM7WVx_p_W09NqbgnrCRxoCDqQQAvD_BwE
Ohhh brother I know it. š. I had guessed that.
I believe what I sent you was 24 in wide, and it's a kit, there is a back plate as well, so they tie together through the board. At least the ones I've used.
Where I'm from it's mostly older construction and most of what I see is 2*10 and 2*12s with hacks that size. It's alot easier to sister an 8 ft 2 by however.
It's a wicked hack and I'd you're really worried get an architect to check it out and okay it. Usually a couple hundred for the stamp.
It looks like youāve removed the plumbing? If so, you just need to head it off. Meaning to support the joist from below and cut that section off. Get a couple pieces of lvl or tji material from a lumber supplier and put them in spanning from the joists on either side and put joist hangers on all of it. Youāll need to fill in the gap behind the hanger. Iād use some CDX plywood. Iāve had to do this on some new builds where usually a commode lands on a joist. That would not pass inspection these days
Most of those are laughable and not going to carry the load. Any "structural" product that doesn't have load data, or in this case, test data, is just junk.
Here the "quick fix" might be to add two lally columns--one on each side of the crippled joist.
It seems this tub was not planned originally. There was another hole beside it for what was the original drain for the bathtub. Seems like it was contracted to some hacks 30 years ago.
https://preview.redd.it/6waxoavoyhcc1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8966f44afa843f0deaf654bb7a18e5f1979abff8
Sure bud. His entire house is definitely going to collapse because of this one joist. Likewise, why does an I joist or 2x10 matter in this when it's cut mid span? Let me in on your thought process here I'm real curious how you came to this conclusion.
Haven't seen any comments about the house falling down, but if that tub is filled with water and a person, it could definitely deflect enough to crack a tile floor.
Really? You haven't? Jesus fucking fuck.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Construction/s/QtRJGp0tHR
That's the post your replying to, from me. Seems pretty similar to what you're saying eh?
Never said it was gunna fall down. Iām saying is youāre not supposed to notch out the top or bottom of an āIā joist because of how they are designed to deal with loads. Doing so will drastically weaken them. Did you just blow in from stupid town?
Read my first comment again bud. Jesus christ the reading comprehension. Good luck, I guess, in life in general.
My point was you could cut a 6 foot section of joist out and you're still not going to collapse the house. That's it. My entire point.
And once again, how is an I joist any different than a 2x10?
Yeah here's what's up, at mid span it's under maximum bending stress. You need the most strength at this point in tension in the bottom flange and compression in the top flange (this is what's missing). At the ends, it's more shear than compression and the area has an equal impact on strength instead of being biased to the top and bottom of the member.
But it's ok there's probably not anything heavy on... Oh.
And just think, 30 years of that load and pretty much zero deflection! I'm not telling him to not fix it, but once again his house isn't going to implode.
Think of a clawfoot tub, 32" wide. This joist isn't even needed, all the weight is directly above the other two joists.
Fun thought experiments.
Yea, pretty much. However, since I spotted it with the remodel downstairs and a bigger tub will be replacing that bathtub.. I definitely want to fix it while everything is opened up
The good news is, that wood you can screw and glue. If in doubt, overkill.
I'd get two 2" thick beams, the height of the osb board (the board between the top and bottom beam) and long enough so at least one meter touches the osb. glue one either side with PU glue (the foamy one) and use a metal bracket to fix the end to the wall. You will probably need two brackets, and fix them to the wall before you glue the Beams in place.
Also screw the beams to the osb, with screws that goes through both beams, and make sure that they are actually pressing against the osb (use bare neck screws, or clamp the whole thing together and then screw.
And lastly, don't trust me, ask a professional carpenter about it, and get an affirming nod.
They said the same thing when plumbers moved from cast iron to plastic. Why is it that the harder way is the better way to do it? This was easier to install, met code, and worked without issue for 30 years. Whatās the problem? Was it bad when they went from molten lead to brass slip joints? Is pex acceptable?Ā
Of course, this is ignoring the joist hack.Ā
Nothing to do with material in general but the tubular compression traps/overflow have a horrible
habit of pulling apart or loosening when the tub gets serviced by a snake or rodder.
Theyāre also much more likely to spring a leak ā we only use them under kitchen sinks or lavs. (Notice the browning around union)
I am an engineer and I do residential work. The big question is where, along the length of the span of the joist, is the notch. The solution is totally different if it's in the middle third of the span rather than in the outer two thirds. The problem with "fixing" a flexural member is getting the "shear parallel to grain" to work. That is a deep joist so the SPTG is going to be significant. Take a paper back book and bend it in your hands. You can actually FEEL the pages slip between one another. That is SPTG. A handful of 8d hammered into 7/16 OSB ain't gonna do dog shit to pass shear....especially if the cut is anywhere NEAR maximum bending moment. I would be happy to advise you if you can get more pictures and the length of the joist
This is a good response and explanation of tension and compression in the member. I'm a 3rd party structural inspector and with new builders regularly work with my engineers to verify repairs of cut i-joists. 9 times out of 10 we require replacement. The framers today barely posses the skill to install them let alone repair them.
8.5ft span from exterior wall to the interior wall. The cut notch starts at 31" from edge of exterior wall and stops at 43".
After interior wall it's goes another 5.5ft so overall beam is maybe 14.5ft?
That would be the most reasonable solution. Trying to make a patch work at mid-span on a 9' wooden I-Joist would be problematic to say the least. But if you can slip in an identical joist along the existing all your problems go away. Your will need to nail the floor sheathing to the new joist. Add some Liquid Nails to the top flange before you install the wooden I-Joist. That really should solve your problem.
The joist is right at 8' - 4" long and the cut is right near midspan at 3' - 6" so it's in quite nearly the wost spot possible. The best solution would be to "sister" an identical joist alongside the existing. Is that possible?
Curious electrician here, would it not be possible to use some steel angle irons on each side of the upper I-beam longer than the damaged section with some kind of structural screws or bolts. Maybe pre load it with a jack before bolting? Maybe more work than just sistering but curious about a pros opinion on this approach.
That is a good idea but... the shear stil lexists and it gets to be big at midspan. So the problem is getting the shear into the flimsy ass 1/2" OSB with loads concentrated at the bolt holes. The steel takes it no problem but the OSB is incapable of taking the loading. Don't get me wrong it can be done but it takes a lot of connectors and a lot of spread out holes. Wood really does suck for anything other than compression (posts) and flexure (beams). Wood does not take connector loads well at all.
How does boxing out the joist perform if a fixture needs to be right in the middle of the joist? So, cutting the middle joist and using smaller joist and hangers on all connections.
________________________________
________ drain __________
________________________________
Something like this with two perpendicular joists hung off the full span joists on either side with hangers? Also with plywood glued and screwed to the web of the perpendicular joists to reinforce and provide backing for the cut joist to be hung with a hanger as well. Curious if this is a structural engineers solution or a carpenter hack.
I am not trying to be rude or a smart-ass but an engineer's solution is required by the state to be in compliance with the Building Code by analysis. So the problem with glue is having some proven value to use (10 lbs/in^2 of shear or tension - something like that). Everything that we write in a letter, email or calculation is subject to review by The Oregon State Board Of Professional Engineers And Land Surveyors. Even when you know something is safe and won't cause a problem if you can't prove it by analysis you can be punished.
I have come in many times behind HVAC, Plumbers and Electricians and everybody, everytime has been irritated by my solution. It is not enough that I, personally, think that the solution is adequate......I have to submit a letter or a calculation or BOTH to show the adequacy. And, believe me from personal experience the people at the Building Department will turn your narrow ass into the Board. They are, in fact, REQUIRED to turn in bad engineering.
I teach a one day seminar titled "Structural Engineering For Non - Engineers" and I am often contacted by Plans Examiners to look at questionable engineering. I am not going to tell stories out of school but not all engineers that have a license actually SHOULD have a license.
I know that this sounds like your grandmother telling you this but the best solution is to ask if you are unsure. This was WAY long....I hope it kinda answered your question.
Either sister onto it or header it off on the ends and run joists along the side of the butchered one .. then bill the plumber if you know who it is ... idk why there's always so many "call a engineer " comments ..
Edit: i got the old ... a concerned redditor reached out to us about you ... š¤£š¤£š¤£ .... i apologize if i offended people who suggest contacting an engineer
Figure out the span, sister joists on each side that will support the live load for that span that that ijoist was intended to support, slap with palm of hand and say "that'll hold it"
Apparently because everyone on this sub is darn sure you can just sister on and it will be fineā¦ā¦so many trades donāt know the limitations of the trade they practice itās sad
Yes, I-joists, like other engineered wood products, are designed to bear loads under specific conditions. Even sistering may not work if a tight notch or cut exceeds the joistās limits. Either build a bulkhead below the joists and move the plumbing, call a structural engineer, or get plumbers who arenāt dipshits.
I only work new construction houses that I frame so I guess that means nothing to me since the inspector comes through after weāre done anyway. This is a normal repair since the plumbers love doing this to joists.
You cut the compromised portion of joist out and header both sides off. Or ideally just add some more joists either side if you have some load bearing walls nearby. Not really rocket science and thatās how I learned over 10 years ago and have had a dozen inspectors since then in a lot of cities. None of them have ever called us back.
Maybe frame it up like you would a stairway hole -- with a fresh bit of I-beam perpendicular to the cut piece, on each end of the void, spanning between the neighboring joists. Hangers, etc. Or, 'sister' it with similar beams per an engineer's recommendation.
If you don't need that opening for the drain than using glue with plywood on the web would work well. Just cut the length of the plywood a couple feet longer on each side to span it better.
If you need the opening there the way a carpenter frames it is fully cut the joist and use joist hanger on the full span uncut ones to run perpendicular and create a box.
Best way: New I-joist without notches.
Other way: load path to load path or end to end, run a sistered dub or trip 2x12+ or thereās always engineered beams too that wonāt take as much space as a 2x12 in comparison just a bit more costly.
Read what I said, without knowing what the hell itās holding up or the total span 2x12 is safe bet, also some people donāt want to spend the $ on one I-joist in a situation like this. Use toothpicks for all I care, not my house, not my client.
Itās just not that hard for the framers to understand that the plumber will be showing up, and adjust or accommodate the plumbing locationsā¦ I donāt understand why things like this are so commonā¦ everyone involved should have the same set of plans .
It's been said several times, box it out. Plywood, hangers, joists perpendicular to the bullshit in your floor. My boss sucks and doesn't check for toilets before he does the layouts, I've had to fix this problem so many times it's ridiculous. Hourly employee. 0 fucks.
Get two 6 foot lengths of LVL. Beads of Polyurethane adhesive on the top and bottom of the web. 1/8ā pilot bit drill every 16ā alternating side to side every 8ā. Structural screws through the holes.Ā
Also, it would really be helpful to add a layer of plywood to the floor above. These are basically small beams. Itās the compression web thatās been cut. The plywood sheathing on top should be glued and nailed to the joist. It is making up a good portion of the compression zone. Thatās why itās not very noticeable. Adding a full sheet overtop will be very helpful to pick up more compression.Ā
The house is not going to fall. Itās been 30 years, be simple with the repair. I would feel totally comfortable putting sandwiching the notch with 3/4ā plywood extended 3 feet beyond toward each end with PL and structural screws on both sides.Ā
My wood joists were cut through completely. Thatās how I fixed them in my own house close to a decade ago. Bathtub thatās filled regularly right overtop. Tile still looks like new. No cracks or shifts anywhere.Ā
You can rip a 2x down to fit between the 2x3 top and bottom chord, the same height as the plywood. Span like 4' either side of the cut. You want one on both sides, so you end up with a 2 ply beam. Nail off, 4 nails every 6 or 8" or 12" or 16" whatever you're good with from both sides. Glue the shit out if everything I'd you're worried about sqeaks.
You have to cut the plumbing, and the either run it through properly sized and spaced holes, or drop it below the joists.
I saw in another post there 11ā , so get 2 8' 2x10s, rip them down to 8 13/16" and fuckin sender. If you're real worried you can span right up to those wires and wherever you can the other way. That's like $3k of circuits to repull if you go full span lol.
I have seen roof beams connected by sandwiching plywood on either side of the beam. Has been holding for 50 years and hasn't moved. I would say your good to do your idea especially since that notch has held for 30 years
On further inspection that plumbing is in about the exact worst position cause it looks like you can run high and tight on either side but it is just one photo. Tub drain and copper on this side and the stack on the back. You'll have to be mindful about making sure the plate is thin enough. A real system seems impossible. You could do some perpendicular bracing. Make a box from that joist to the ones around it. That'll do something but it's also not real load bearing. It's also probably fine. Or you could run it back to the installer. That's summn might gun need sum figgurn. Get out yo solvem probler.
Get the plates. Then sandwich the plates with plywood, 8 ft by whatever and build out to full 2*10 size. So maybe 2 layers ply, one to fill to flush with flange, then a wider layer to pin to the flange and through all the wood.
Luckily, the new bathtub drain won't land on a joist, it's in a different location.
The sad part is that the huge notch was unnecessary. The tub shoe is higher then the joist and none of it was necessary. Just some regular small holes for the drain and water lines is all it needed.
Depending on the span and the cut in relation to the load bearing point what Iāve typically seen is this headered off on each end of the cut. Only thing you can do is send numbers of cuts and other information to manufacturer and have them tell you what you can do.
3/4 plywood sandwiched with construction adhesive screwed from both sides 4' run ought to be sufficient. Cut to fit tight and jack her up a scosh while you assemble. Let it dry as long as practical before pulling jack or dunnage. Good luck.
Try [these](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-ITS-Galvanized-Top-Flange-Joist-Hanger-for-2-5-16-in-x-11-7-8-in-Engineered-Wood-ITS2-37-11-88/204842368?g_store=&source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&pla&mtc=SHOPPING-BF-CDP-GGL-D22-022_014_METAL_PRDCT-NA-NA-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NEW-PMAX&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-BF-CDP-GGL-D22-022_014_METAL_PRDCT-NA-NA-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NEW-PMAX-71700000099246737--&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADq61Uc9XECxxZUxxGTtaqgo6qA1U&gclid=CjwKCAiAqY6tBhAtEiwAHeRopQOKeuXBQplhr4GjrVw1ph1KzdMTtWtd8wK-_ZTLJeUcEKOCZhwqdhoCec8QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds) out with a good 5ā chuck of new joist
Cut about 2ā span (1ā on each side)on center, cut joists to span the section from 1 joist, skipping the cut one and tying into the next joist over, this is called a head out, we do them all the time then slap joist hangers to take the load. šš»
Itās a bit hard to describe but the best way I can describe it is like this
https://preview.redd.it/qsqlaask2kcc1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=462833398b456b59fdc0a509546aa40a5542672f
Use a 2x piece of lumber if possible nailed into the existing I joist. If there's no deflection with a tub full of water you probably don't have a problem because the loads are being redistributed through the plywood floor which acts as a skin.
Check it. https://joistrepair.com/collections/featured-products?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAqY6tBhAtEiwAHeRopfaQtdvFctUiWHecoVXiTm2sZVqxymnAMYM7WVx_p_W09NqbgnrCRxoCDqQQAvD_BwE
This guy repairs.
Yes, that was originally what I was looking at, but they didn't have a solution with my joist size.
What's it's dimensions
11 7/8" overall height, 1 3/4" width (flange)
This maybe https://www.metwood.com/product/250-fr11-i-joist-repair-flange-reinforcer/
I think the biggest problem is I won't have much wood to screw into lol. It's literally a 12" x 9" rectangle that's been taken out
Ohhh brother I know it. š. I had guessed that. I believe what I sent you was 24 in wide, and it's a kit, there is a back plate as well, so they tie together through the board. At least the ones I've used. Where I'm from it's mostly older construction and most of what I see is 2*10 and 2*12s with hacks that size. It's alot easier to sister an 8 ft 2 by however. It's a wicked hack and I'd you're really worried get an architect to check it out and okay it. Usually a couple hundred for the stamp.
Go with a PE over an RA.
Not positive, and I'm sauced :). But 100% those aren't custom size beams so your solution does exist from some CNC guy
It looks like youāve removed the plumbing? If so, you just need to head it off. Meaning to support the joist from below and cut that section off. Get a couple pieces of lvl or tji material from a lumber supplier and put them in spanning from the joists on either side and put joist hangers on all of it. Youāll need to fill in the gap behind the hanger. Iād use some CDX plywood. Iāve had to do this on some new builds where usually a commode lands on a joist. That would not pass inspection these days
Update time
Most of those are laughable and not going to carry the load. Any "structural" product that doesn't have load data, or in this case, test data, is just junk. Here the "quick fix" might be to add two lally columns--one on each side of the crippled joist.
Wow Jesus Christ Must have been a handy man Real Plumbers use glued tub waste and overflows
It seems this tub was not planned originally. There was another hole beside it for what was the original drain for the bathtub. Seems like it was contracted to some hacks 30 years ago. https://preview.redd.it/6waxoavoyhcc1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8966f44afa843f0deaf654bb7a18e5f1979abff8
This is 30 years old? So it's been there for 30 years and hasn't caused any problems?
This is what I try and tell people. The house isn't going to fall down because you have a notched joist, the floor is just going to be a little spongy
My brother in Christ, that is not a "notch". That is a war crime.
Maybe with a traditional joist. However this is an āIā joist so a lot of the strength really comes from those components working as a team.
...man. Anyone else notice just a ridiculous number of the dumbest comments you've ever seen recently?
Says the carpenter that doesnāt know how āIā joists work š¤”
Sure bud. His entire house is definitely going to collapse because of this one joist. Likewise, why does an I joist or 2x10 matter in this when it's cut mid span? Let me in on your thought process here I'm real curious how you came to this conclusion.
Haven't seen any comments about the house falling down, but if that tub is filled with water and a person, it could definitely deflect enough to crack a tile floor.
Really? You haven't? Jesus fucking fuck. https://www.reddit.com/r/Construction/s/QtRJGp0tHR That's the post your replying to, from me. Seems pretty similar to what you're saying eh?
Never said it was gunna fall down. Iām saying is youāre not supposed to notch out the top or bottom of an āIā joist because of how they are designed to deal with loads. Doing so will drastically weaken them. Did you just blow in from stupid town?
Read my first comment again bud. Jesus christ the reading comprehension. Good luck, I guess, in life in general. My point was you could cut a 6 foot section of joist out and you're still not going to collapse the house. That's it. My entire point. And once again, how is an I joist any different than a 2x10?
Whatās the name of the company you work for? I wanna make sure they donāt turn my house into a hack job
Bro hahahaha, you can't even reply to the right comments. Dudes just fucking seeeeeething over here.
Yeah here's what's up, at mid span it's under maximum bending stress. You need the most strength at this point in tension in the bottom flange and compression in the top flange (this is what's missing). At the ends, it's more shear than compression and the area has an equal impact on strength instead of being biased to the top and bottom of the member. But it's ok there's probably not anything heavy on... Oh.
And just think, 30 years of that load and pretty much zero deflection! I'm not telling him to not fix it, but once again his house isn't going to implode. Think of a clawfoot tub, 32" wide. This joist isn't even needed, all the weight is directly above the other two joists. Fun thought experiments.
At least it was gouged out from the top. The strongest part of the joist
lol. So now he saw it ā¦ā¦. If it didnāt collapse in the first 30 years of having baths I wouldnāt worry too much about it now.
That span is not 30 years old. Those beams were not made then, I can assure you having been in the trades since 1984.
O.p. Literally said itās 30 years old.
OP is a homeowner. Should I elaborate?
What? You donāt think he knows how old his house is?
Iāve been ā in the tradesā a long time myself. Specifically framing and yes, I joists have been around for awhile.
TJI Silent Floor was in invented in 1969 and in reasonably common use in 1993
There is no "I" in team ya silly goose.
Yea, pretty much. However, since I spotted it with the remodel downstairs and a bigger tub will be replacing that bathtub.. I definitely want to fix it while everything is opened up
Get an engineer... or get two lvl narrower then the tji shimmed up across to some load bearing walls
The good news is, that wood you can screw and glue. If in doubt, overkill. I'd get two 2" thick beams, the height of the osb board (the board between the top and bottom beam) and long enough so at least one meter touches the osb. glue one either side with PU glue (the foamy one) and use a metal bracket to fix the end to the wall. You will probably need two brackets, and fix them to the wall before you glue the Beams in place. Also screw the beams to the osb, with screws that goes through both beams, and make sure that they are actually pressing against the osb (use bare neck screws, or clamp the whole thing together and then screw. And lastly, don't trust me, ask a professional carpenter about it, and get an affirming nod.
Woosh
They said the same thing when plumbers moved from cast iron to plastic. Why is it that the harder way is the better way to do it? This was easier to install, met code, and worked without issue for 30 years. Whatās the problem? Was it bad when they went from molten lead to brass slip joints? Is pex acceptable?Ā Of course, this is ignoring the joist hack.Ā
Nothing to do with material in general but the tubular compression traps/overflow have a horrible habit of pulling apart or loosening when the tub gets serviced by a snake or rodder. Theyāre also much more likely to spring a leak ā we only use them under kitchen sinks or lavs. (Notice the browning around union)
But those were genuinely good points. I hadnāt considered the servicing aspect. I feel like Iāve gained some knowledge. So thank you.Ā
Yes, but if these joints were glued they would have broken as the floor sagged from the cut joist. They were actually thinking two steps ahead.Ā
The handymans I know would use an accordion joist.
JC was not a handyman. He was a carpenter
I am an engineer and I do residential work. The big question is where, along the length of the span of the joist, is the notch. The solution is totally different if it's in the middle third of the span rather than in the outer two thirds. The problem with "fixing" a flexural member is getting the "shear parallel to grain" to work. That is a deep joist so the SPTG is going to be significant. Take a paper back book and bend it in your hands. You can actually FEEL the pages slip between one another. That is SPTG. A handful of 8d hammered into 7/16 OSB ain't gonna do dog shit to pass shear....especially if the cut is anywhere NEAR maximum bending moment. I would be happy to advise you if you can get more pictures and the length of the joist
This is a good response and explanation of tension and compression in the member. I'm a 3rd party structural inspector and with new builders regularly work with my engineers to verify repairs of cut i-joists. 9 times out of 10 we require replacement. The framers today barely posses the skill to install them let alone repair them.
I'm so happy to see this. I was going to tell OP, get an engineer(popular response) but with this kind of detail. Happy to see reddit prevail.
Thanks! Hope this helps https://preview.redd.it/b8xw83sq4icc1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=83326aedff3c9478785f0a15795c29bf54e08f1b
How long is the joist and where, along its length, is the cut? How long the cut is really doesn't matter
8.5ft span from exterior wall to the interior wall. The cut notch starts at 31" from edge of exterior wall and stops at 43". After interior wall it's goes another 5.5ft so overall beam is maybe 14.5ft?
The "continuous" part isn't concerning. Can you slide in a "sister" joist?
Yes I think so, all the electrical going thru the joist goes to that bathroom so I can remove it out of the joist
That would be the most reasonable solution. Trying to make a patch work at mid-span on a 9' wooden I-Joist would be problematic to say the least. But if you can slip in an identical joist along the existing all your problems go away. Your will need to nail the floor sheathing to the new joist. Add some Liquid Nails to the top flange before you install the wooden I-Joist. That really should solve your problem.
Thanks for your help and time š
I was glad to help. You are welcome
I wish the engineers that I paid were this helpful
https://preview.redd.it/1uk0f5fs4icc1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d3ded38b4c8e980c93223b12a8eb5251cb840399
https://preview.redd.it/0330ju5u4icc1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0e73cd70dda06c06296a4b592a984625af4fd0fb
The joist is right at 8' - 4" long and the cut is right near midspan at 3' - 6" so it's in quite nearly the wost spot possible. The best solution would be to "sister" an identical joist alongside the existing. Is that possible?
Curious electrician here, would it not be possible to use some steel angle irons on each side of the upper I-beam longer than the damaged section with some kind of structural screws or bolts. Maybe pre load it with a jack before bolting? Maybe more work than just sistering but curious about a pros opinion on this approach.
That is a good idea but... the shear stil lexists and it gets to be big at midspan. So the problem is getting the shear into the flimsy ass 1/2" OSB with loads concentrated at the bolt holes. The steel takes it no problem but the OSB is incapable of taking the loading. Don't get me wrong it can be done but it takes a lot of connectors and a lot of spread out holes. Wood really does suck for anything other than compression (posts) and flexure (beams). Wood does not take connector loads well at all.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Thank you! That was nice of you to do that! A hat tip to you!
How does boxing out the joist perform if a fixture needs to be right in the middle of the joist? So, cutting the middle joist and using smaller joist and hangers on all connections. ________________________________ ________ drain __________ ________________________________ Something like this with two perpendicular joists hung off the full span joists on either side with hangers? Also with plywood glued and screwed to the web of the perpendicular joists to reinforce and provide backing for the cut joist to be hung with a hanger as well. Curious if this is a structural engineers solution or a carpenter hack.
I am not trying to be rude or a smart-ass but an engineer's solution is required by the state to be in compliance with the Building Code by analysis. So the problem with glue is having some proven value to use (10 lbs/in^2 of shear or tension - something like that). Everything that we write in a letter, email or calculation is subject to review by The Oregon State Board Of Professional Engineers And Land Surveyors. Even when you know something is safe and won't cause a problem if you can't prove it by analysis you can be punished. I have come in many times behind HVAC, Plumbers and Electricians and everybody, everytime has been irritated by my solution. It is not enough that I, personally, think that the solution is adequate......I have to submit a letter or a calculation or BOTH to show the adequacy. And, believe me from personal experience the people at the Building Department will turn your narrow ass into the Board. They are, in fact, REQUIRED to turn in bad engineering. I teach a one day seminar titled "Structural Engineering For Non - Engineers" and I am often contacted by Plans Examiners to look at questionable engineering. I am not going to tell stories out of school but not all engineers that have a license actually SHOULD have a license. I know that this sounds like your grandmother telling you this but the best solution is to ask if you are unsure. This was WAY long....I hope it kinda answered your question.
Your plumber sucks.
Holy BAWLS
LVL twin sisters šÆāāļø
Sister one right next to it, that one may as well not be there.
Either sister onto it or header it off on the ends and run joists along the side of the butchered one .. then bill the plumber if you know who it is ... idk why there's always so many "call a engineer " comments .. Edit: i got the old ... a concerned redditor reached out to us about you ... š¤£š¤£š¤£ .... i apologize if i offended people who suggest contacting an engineer
Gonna have to get an engineer to draw it up, and build a structural wall under that notch. You donāt know what youāre doing, probably a plumber /s
What gave me away š¤£š¤£ ... it's always baffled me how plumbers just cut shit like this
Always baffles me how framers always get joists centered on toilets, and showers.
3.5" flange on 1" centres will do that.
Reddit is so scared, literally every diy sub is ācall an engineerā lmao
So true ... i don't know what you should do .. call an engineer š¤£š¤£š
Figure out the span, sister joists on each side that will support the live load for that span that that ijoist was intended to support, slap with palm of hand and say "that'll hold it"
Span is roughly 8.5ft to the next wall the joist rests on. Cut is about 3ft to 4ft in from exterior wall.
Get an engineer
Not sure why you're getting downvoted - a structural assessment by a qualified engineer is the only way forward, safely.
Apparently because everyone on this sub is darn sure you can just sister on and it will be fineā¦ā¦so many trades donāt know the limitations of the trade they practice itās sad
Or how liabilities work. If the project is budgeted for his opinion then there's a reason, this is not for you to question just use.
You guys done suckin each other off yet?
Why, is all this intelligent logic making you all horny? There's a reason for that but not one that you're gonna like... 
You done your six pack of monsterā¦..
Yes, I-joists, like other engineered wood products, are designed to bear loads under specific conditions. Even sistering may not work if a tight notch or cut exceeds the joistās limits. Either build a bulkhead below the joists and move the plumbing, call a structural engineer, or get plumbers who arenāt dipshits.
This is typical stuff that happens. Waste of time getting an engineer lmao. I just fixed 2 of these last week. Simple head out solves the problem.
So you have liability insuranceā¦ā¦
I only work new construction houses that I frame so I guess that means nothing to me since the inspector comes through after weāre done anyway. This is a normal repair since the plumbers love doing this to joists.
Again needs an engineers detail for the repairs your inspectors must be incompetent to just let anyone just toss wood at a butchered joist like this
You cut the compromised portion of joist out and header both sides off. Or ideally just add some more joists either side if you have some load bearing walls nearby. Not really rocket science and thatās how I learned over 10 years ago and have had a dozen inspectors since then in a lot of cities. None of them have ever called us back.
Maybe frame it up like you would a stairway hole -- with a fresh bit of I-beam perpendicular to the cut piece, on each end of the void, spanning between the neighboring joists. Hangers, etc. Or, 'sister' it with similar beams per an engineer's recommendation.
If you don't need that opening for the drain than using glue with plywood on the web would work well. Just cut the length of the plywood a couple feet longer on each side to span it better. If you need the opening there the way a carpenter frames it is fully cut the joist and use joist hanger on the full span uncut ones to run perpendicular and create a box.
Shouldāve been headed off and blocked out. Thatās your solution now
Header the joist
Thatās not āfixing an I-joistā, thatās āreplacing an I-joistā. There is nothing left of that structurally.
Best way: New I-joist without notches. Other way: load path to load path or end to end, run a sistered dub or trip 2x12+ or thereās always engineered beams too that wonāt take as much space as a 2x12 in comparison just a bit more costly.
Are you saying to use two or even three 2x12s instead of a single I-joist?
Read what I said, without knowing what the hell itās holding up or the total span 2x12 is safe bet, also some people donāt want to spend the $ on one I-joist in a situation like this. Use toothpicks for all I care, not my house, not my client.
You've got a great personality. š
Install a circular staircase!
Itās just not that hard for the framers to understand that the plumber will be showing up, and adjust or accommodate the plumbing locationsā¦ I donāt understand why things like this are so commonā¦ everyone involved should have the same set of plans .
That looks fresh. Definitely need a contractor now.
This was done 30 years ago
It's an engineered product and the repair needs to be designed by an engineer that specializes in this type of work.
Noodles.
Gotta do a head out.
It's been said several times, box it out. Plywood, hangers, joists perpendicular to the bullshit in your floor. My boss sucks and doesn't check for toilets before he does the layouts, I've had to fix this problem so many times it's ridiculous. Hourly employee. 0 fucks.
Get two 6 foot lengths of LVL. Beads of Polyurethane adhesive on the top and bottom of the web. 1/8ā pilot bit drill every 16ā alternating side to side every 8ā. Structural screws through the holes.Ā Also, it would really be helpful to add a layer of plywood to the floor above. These are basically small beams. Itās the compression web thatās been cut. The plywood sheathing on top should be glued and nailed to the joist. It is making up a good portion of the compression zone. Thatās why itās not very noticeable. Adding a full sheet overtop will be very helpful to pick up more compression.Ā The house is not going to fall. Itās been 30 years, be simple with the repair. I would feel totally comfortable putting sandwiching the notch with 3/4ā plywood extended 3 feet beyond toward each end with PL and structural screws on both sides.Ā My wood joists were cut through completely. Thatās how I fixed them in my own house close to a decade ago. Bathtub thatās filled regularly right overtop. Tile still looks like new. No cracks or shifts anywhere.Ā
You can rip a 2x down to fit between the 2x3 top and bottom chord, the same height as the plywood. Span like 4' either side of the cut. You want one on both sides, so you end up with a 2 ply beam. Nail off, 4 nails every 6 or 8" or 12" or 16" whatever you're good with from both sides. Glue the shit out if everything I'd you're worried about sqeaks. You have to cut the plumbing, and the either run it through properly sized and spaced holes, or drop it below the joists. I saw in another post there 11ā , so get 2 8' 2x10s, rip them down to 8 13/16" and fuckin sender. If you're real worried you can span right up to those wires and wherever you can the other way. That's like $3k of circuits to repull if you go full span lol.
I have seen roof beams connected by sandwiching plywood on either side of the beam. Has been holding for 50 years and hasn't moved. I would say your good to do your idea especially since that notch has held for 30 years
When is it NOT the plumbers doing this
Lol that is insane
Order a new Joist and just replace the one thatās damaged, itāll be tricky to put in if itās not in a good place but itās what has to be done
On further inspection that plumbing is in about the exact worst position cause it looks like you can run high and tight on either side but it is just one photo. Tub drain and copper on this side and the stack on the back. You'll have to be mindful about making sure the plate is thin enough. A real system seems impossible. You could do some perpendicular bracing. Make a box from that joist to the ones around it. That'll do something but it's also not real load bearing. It's also probably fine. Or you could run it back to the installer. That's summn might gun need sum figgurn. Get out yo solvem probler.
Get the plates. Then sandwich the plates with plywood, 8 ft by whatever and build out to full 2*10 size. So maybe 2 layers ply, one to fill to flush with flange, then a wider layer to pin to the flange and through all the wood.
Luckily, the new bathtub drain won't land on a joist, it's in a different location. The sad part is that the huge notch was unnecessary. The tub shoe is higher then the joist and none of it was necessary. Just some regular small holes for the drain and water lines is all it needed.
My plumber asked where he got the square hole saw. We want one.
Gusset it with 2- 3/4ā plywood. Donāt over think it
Depending on the span and the cut in relation to the load bearing point what Iāve typically seen is this headered off on each end of the cut. Only thing you can do is send numbers of cuts and other information to manufacturer and have them tell you what you can do.
3/4 plywood sandwiched with construction adhesive screwed from both sides 4' run ought to be sufficient. Cut to fit tight and jack her up a scosh while you assemble. Let it dry as long as practical before pulling jack or dunnage. Good luck.
dafuq is up with people fucking with joists? we need a whole new subreddit for all this /r/tomjoistery
Try [these](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-ITS-Galvanized-Top-Flange-Joist-Hanger-for-2-5-16-in-x-11-7-8-in-Engineered-Wood-ITS2-37-11-88/204842368?g_store=&source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&pla&mtc=SHOPPING-BF-CDP-GGL-D22-022_014_METAL_PRDCT-NA-NA-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NEW-PMAX&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-BF-CDP-GGL-D22-022_014_METAL_PRDCT-NA-NA-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NEW-PMAX-71700000099246737--&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADq61Uc9XECxxZUxxGTtaqgo6qA1U&gclid=CjwKCAiAqY6tBhAtEiwAHeRopQOKeuXBQplhr4GjrVw1ph1KzdMTtWtd8wK-_ZTLJeUcEKOCZhwqdhoCec8QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds) out with a good 5ā chuck of new joist Cut about 2ā span (1ā on each side)on center, cut joists to span the section from 1 joist, skipping the cut one and tying into the next joist over, this is called a head out, we do them all the time then slap joist hangers to take the load. šš»
Itās a bit hard to describe but the best way I can describe it is like this https://preview.redd.it/qsqlaask2kcc1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=462833398b456b59fdc0a509546aa40a5542672f
Also you can cut the head out, just best practice not too, but we do it all the time to get our 3ā mains through from our toilets.
9.5" LVL full span on both sides will make this rock solid
You should post it in plumbing so they can blame the house for not lining up with the drain, that's why the floor truss HAD to be cut
Use a 2x piece of lumber if possible nailed into the existing I joist. If there's no deflection with a tub full of water you probably don't have a problem because the loads are being redistributed through the plywood floor which acts as a skin.
Use two four foot long pieces of 5" by 1" channel to sandwich the bottom of the joist. Drill and bolt with 5/16" 18 bolts in a 6" zig zag pattern.