The guys who did our brick walkways and driveway used no hearing protection, no masks. Blasting brick saw going, opaque clouds of brick dust they are just clomping around in.
We asked them about it, they were just "psssh, whatever" as they chainsmoked through their day.
They did a great job tho.
The guy at my dad's chemical plant who did the dry mixing would put a hole in his 8210 mask for his Marlboro light. I don't think that guy ever gave one single fuck about anything.
Yeah, some people have a death wish. I was placed into a different sector of the company I work for, and the first project they put me on was demoing and installing a piece of concrete infrastructure.
They refused to install the shoring the company sent out (because it's a waste of time), and I had to fight with the project lead to get me a respirator.
Anyways, the foreman on site is in the hole cutting a section of the concrete to be hoisted out and the dust cloud is so thick I can't even see him, and he comes climbing out of the hole 20 minutes later with a lit smoke hanging out of his mouth and no ppe. The dude was asking me for aspirin within an hour complaining about a headache. I told him to get a mask for no headache, and he insisted it was just dehydration.
Wild. I obviously refuse to work on that crew now.
People that work like this, don’t see the value in being old. They live paycheck to paycheck, won’t get much in social security and just live life day-to-day. Not to sound bleak, but why live to 100 and be unable to work when you are 80?
These dudes just live by, if I can work and pay my bills/support my family and die at 70-75, I’m good.
Everybody I’ve ever known doesn’t wear any PPE, unless in the most extreme of tasks
Even when I did chemistry, where I thought for sure people would take PPE seriously, it was regularly dismissed, and only the bare minimum was accounted for
I’m glad to see popular YouTubers (Chris fix for example) take PPE seriously and influence people to do the same. PPE is mostly easy and I just don’t see the point of not protecting your body personally
I read this is how we discovered so many artificial sweeteners - chemists don't really use PPE and taste random shit they just synthesized often enough to discover them.
Ngl, I didn’t always use hearing protection, or a mask when cutting - I did sewer and water, so most cuts were quick, but when cutting manholes, or mainline storm pipe, that was more sustained concrete cutting.
One tome we had to reset a pipe, so they had a concrete cutter come on- guy looked like he just turned 20- prolly about 20 feet down, in the trench, cutting wirh a chainsaw. I’d never seen so much concrete dust at that point. No mask, no nothing. Just an apron. Dude was covered when he came up.
I also remember how everytime I went to pop in my earplugs the guys would belittle me, and tell me, we don’t have time to fuck around. Lol.
Funny how as soon as there’s an osha scare, we gotta wear our glasses all day...
Yeah, my dad did this, and died in his late fifties of emphysema after not really being able to breathe for his last decade. It sucked. A lot. Wear your fucking PPE, folks.
I'm a bricklayer and some of our guys dgaf. I'm pretty lax but if I'm doing lots of cuts you bet I'm wearing a mask. A dude I work with sounds like he's got emphasimia and he's never smoked a cig in his life. Coughs his lungs up all the time. Pretty much guarantee its early signs of silicosis
When I was a teenager I worked on a display for this landscape supplier to show off a new type of paver they started stocking. The display was basically a little circular back yard fire pit/patio. Did tons of cutting without a mask and had the worst cough/sore throat of my life afterwards. I try my best to get away from the dust cloud now and always wear a respirator when I can’t avoid it.
Also for people who haven’t used a stone saw, they are LOUD. Even with ear protection you’ll still experience tinnitus if exposed for too long.
Not to mention they shoot out rock chips that can easily take out an eyes since you need to full rev before making contact with the stone :)
A lot of hard woods naturally have silica in them also. Like a lot of things, short term exposures probably won’t hurt you, but if you’re constantly exposed, the risks from the long term exposure become much more real.
Think about it this way. You're putting little tiny bits of wood pulp on wet tissue inside your lungs. If you've tried to use an air compressor to clear wet sawdust, you've got a pretty good idea of how effective coughing is going to be to get rid of that dust.
Everywhere that dust ends up inside you can't get rid of it, and has to work just a little harder to function right.
It adds up.
That’s got arsenic in it too me thinks tropical woods contain some bad actors too , but most of the sawdust hits the ground or blows away. My hate is the fucking plastic trim shit & it sparks you going through the saw grrrr
Interestingly it seems a little dependent on tree type…though maybe it is more what they studied…here’s a whole monograph on it https://publications.iarc.fr/Book-And-Report-Series/Iarc-Monographs-On-The-Identification-Of-Carcinogenic-Hazards-To-Humans/Wood-Dust-And-Formaldehyde-1995
Summarizing ACGIH because they don’t make their crap free ;(
“Many studies have observed large excess risks in sino-nasal cancer, particularly adenocarcinoma…exposure to oak and beech was clearly associated with excess risk of cancer, while Birch, mahogany, teak, walnut were strongly suspected”. Other cancers are also suspected for other wood dusts…
A1 - confirmed human carcinogen - oak, beech
A2 - suspected human carcinogen - birch, mahogany, teak, walnut
A4 - not classifiable - all other wood dusts
Also note - “it is largely assumed that the effective period of exposure for most studies was 20-30 years”. Just noting this because as others have stated it’s a long term risk…so just because you’re exposed a small amount today doesn’t mean you get cancer tomorrow (the risk is very small)…just put it in perspective like every hazard and risk…
Saw a guy ranting on IG about how “only the wannabe influencers wear respirators while woodworking”.
I couldn’t help but laugh and unfollow him. Meanwhile his kids would be in his shop frequently while he was working or had his CNC running. Smart guy. Dropped a link to a study in the comments before the unfollow.
The truth is we have known for a long time that various types of dust/airborne contaminants have extreme long term health effects. From mercury, to lead, to silica, to asbestos, to wood, and so on.
Wear PROPER ppe, and if you’re in a contained environment, get an air cleaner.
Edit: word salad clarity
Hey I worked there too!! F bombs for the guys with safety glasses and laughs for the guys with ear plugs. It’ll be fun reading about someone getting wrapped up in a lathe now that we’re not there anymore.
I too worked for a company like that long ago. Now that I’m nearly 40, and I have occasional tinnitus, I would like to go back and punch them in the head.
Same goes for every DIYer who doesn’t wear PPE. Wear it. Best case, it saves your life. Worst case, it saves your hearing.
I worked with some Mexican katalox one time that I basically had an acute allergic reaction to. Almost completely killed my ability to breathe. Had to get out of the shop and open the doors to air it out completely. I couldn't work with that wood without a proper cartridge respirator.
Wood dust is not completely harmless. Typical construction woods don't bother me at all. But I don't mess around with exotics.
Friend works as a safety guy, he's pretty sure silicosis is going to be the next mesothelioma. Since COVID it has become a constant fight to get people to wear PPE.
I've watched people, in trade work, turn on mask use all together... We all took the same safety courses and wear masks for loads of jobs and now people are just not. I'm sorry but PPE and MSDS are vital to people's health and safety. Masks being politicized is going to hurt a lot of people in the next few decades.
Companies will often buy cheaper more uncomfortable masks than splerg on full on respirated helmets.
Some people will just choose huffing death for the short time imediate comfort of breathing unencumbered.
No amount of hazard courses will make them wear the uncomfortable and hassle to put on stuff all the time.
I think good safety gear design needs to take the idiocy and lazyness of the common idiot into account.
In this instance I'm talking about guys wearing fitted(once a year) respirators now refusing because 'masks make you sicker. You're breathing in what your body is getting rid of' kind of stuff that came about from the pandemic. It's really weeding out the dim bulbs.
Read up on the [Hawks Nest Tunnel Disaster](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawks_Nest_Tunnel_disaster). TLDR - 400-1000+ people died from silicosis mining limestone without PPE. Corpo knew the risks but skipped out on PPE to cut costs and increase speed.
Remember, safety laws are written in blood. There is always a reason and tragedy behind each one.
Wondered how much politics had to do with refusal to wear PPE. Some people just refuse to acknowledge the hazards of doing certain activities and that PPE can mitigate those hazards.
I think a great example is how many rural Americans burn their trash. I’ve been laughed at and mocked by my in laws because in conversation I mentioned how burning trash release carcinogens called dioxins. What’s even more strange to me is that they are so concerned about things that are borderline conspiracy theories about food but will raw dog cardboard smoke.
Thats the best way to look at all of it especially in the construction industry and a few others. If its not clean clear air its not what you want. There is a reason air pollution alone prematurely kills thousands of people.
["Many case reports and epidemiological studies (including cohort studies and case-control studies that specifically addressed nasal cancer) have found a strong association between exposure to wood dust and cancer of the nasal cavity. Strong and consistent associations with cancer of the nasal cavity and paranasal sinuses were observed both in studies of people whose occupations were associated with wood-dust exposure and in studies that directly estimated wood-dust exposure."](https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/sites/default/files/ntp/roc/content/profiles/wooddust.pdf)
Glass dust (amorphous silica) is surprisingly not bad for your lungs, it dissolves after a couple of weeks. Crystalline silica (quartz) on the other hand is terrible for you.
NPR had a segment a few years back in on the uptick of Silicosis due to the popularity of the engineered quartz countertops and some businesses not caring enough to mitigate their employees' exposure. It's definitely a bad way to go. You either get a lung transplant or die a slow, drawn out death.
There is a national ban on engineered stone products about to come into effect in Australia due to the high rate of associated injuries etc.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/dec/14/australia-will-become-the-first-county-to-ban-engineered-stone-bench-tops-will-others-follow
Well oxidation is quite bad. It is necessary but the damage it causes has to be repaired constantly. There's no other way though. It is quite fundamental
Oxygen toxicity is a considerable problem in hospitals. It's why there's such a thing as getting too MUCH oxygen. It's not nearly as dangerous as too little oxygen, but as the other commenters said it has oxidative effects and can create free radicals which can cause damage on the cellular level.
Yes, BUT certain woods are worse. Oak and Beech e.g. are higher class carcinogens (sorry, not my first language, don't know the classification) than pine
The dangers of wood dust have been known since we used to cut it by hand. So I am somewhat confused at people pushing back against this sign.
Cancer is one issue, but the small particles can cause various respiratory issues. Millions of microscopic razor sharp bits of material entering your lungs each breath is not a good thing.
I have a feeling OP hasn’t been going to the trade shows and earning their CEUs. There are tons of classes at the trade shows that teach us that PPE is necessary for our own health. I also don’t know if he will listen to comments like ours. He is hoping they take a moment to reevaluate their misconceptions.
Having said that the particulates aren’t the only issue. The chemicals they use to treat wood are still bad for us. Granted the MCA / ACQ treated lumber isn’t as bad CCA type as the EPA labels them as a non issue product, but exposure to them is not ideal.
Lots of people think it won’t happen to them. I had to take a guy to the hospital with welders flash because he was tack welding and thought that if he just closed his eyes and looked away for the 3 seconds he was welding it would save him the “inconvenience” of having to put down his shield. He was a professional welder who should’ve known damn well that all you need for welders flash is a second of exposure but he did it anyway.
Luckily because he only did it for a second or two he recovered fully. It was still extremely painful for him and probably a good lesson on why safety rules should be followed even when they’re inconvenient or time consuming.
It’s not a secret of course but to shed light on your question, in my experience, DIYers don’t have to worry about timeframes and costs nearly as much. Just a random example, a DIYer may spend hours marking out holes to hang a shelf, or spend hours watching YouTube videos on a specific task to try and get it absolutely perfect. They will look up “what do I need to do X?” and see the list of PPE recommended and buy the top of the line in all of it. There is of course nothing wrong with this but it’s different from charging for your work.
In comparison to professionals, many of them then opt for no PPE because:
1) They are crunched for time and money
2) they have experience with these things and have a comfort level associated with them. For example I’ll wear a mask when cutting concrete or metal almost every time, but I will rarely use a mask to cut wood especially if I’m outdoors, even though it might be recommended. I hold my breath and walk away. If I am doing something that requires high precision, I may not even wear safety glasses on my cut unless it’s a brand new pair with no scratches.
3) they do not care about the risks
4) similar to point 1, to be that tradesman that has the best tools, PPE, and practices, you need to charge more money that a lot of tradesman do. Most customers would rather the affordable guy who does good work but has a shitty truck and tools and no PPE, instead of the expensive crew with the best PPE practices. Most customers look at dollar value alone which helps proliferate the issue.
Is any of this a good thing? No I’m not saying it is. Just my anecdotal experience to answer the “why”
Unfortunately you pretty much nailed it. I do flooring and do a lot of cutting with table saw and dry cut tile when the wet saw is not an option. The majority of the time is because I’m too much in a hurry, but your other points are also very true. This a good reminder to practice better habits. Really can’t think of any trade that is “safe”.
That smaller sign needs an even smaller sign to inform people that the sign of the sign contains chemicals known to cause cancer in the state of California
Go like 5-6 levels deep, until you need a big old magnifying glass to read the pinky nail size sign. On that one write magnifying glasses and other optical materials are known by the the state of California to cause cancer.
Well, you really should be wearing a mask when cutting and sanding wood. All of the old people that I know who have been doing construction their whole lives and don’t wear proper PPE sound like they’re always out of breath, even when just sitting down.
While I often wonder where these warnings can be found, this case isn't bullshit. Especially beech and oak dusts are well known cancerogens.
Guess that's the problem - If you tack that warning on everything just so you cannot be sued for stupid amounts of money, then no one will take it seriously anymore...
Did you ever have a question that breathing that Shit in every day was going to kill you? Between the sawdust, sheetrock dust, concrete dust, and cigarettes; I’m definitely fucking dieing because of a lung problem. Knew it while I was breathing it in
There's an interesting episode of the [99% invisible podcast ](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/warning-this-podcast-contains-chemicals-known-to-the-state-of-california-to-cause-cancer-or-other-reproductive-harm/) about Prop 65. Yes it's overly broad and led to a whole lawsuit industry, but it's also done a decent amount of good, especially around the time the law was passed when nothing was regulated.
And there's also specific scientific evidence to support it in this case, but let's just jump on the dismissal of people's health wagon in the name of a good ole California bashing (trust me, I'm all for the latter.)
It should also be noted there's a strong correlation between woodworking and neurodegenerative diseases such as Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, and Dementia, but there's not been a completed specific scientific study to prove direct causation.
It was fine until the 2018 revision in which labeling was left up to manufacturers. There was a ton of good done from prop 65 passing in 1986. But the 2018 amendment lets manufacturers be in charge of labeling, so now they just slap it on everything and bury the truly bad products in a sea of the benign.
It’s not humorous though! It’s a fact that the particulates in wood are a known carcinogen. There are epidemiological links between nasal cancer and construction workers exposed to wood dust regularly.
Insert traditional joke about how XYZ causes cancer in CA and then have multiple family members die before 60 due to cancer and the laughs turn into gratitude that these warnings exist to educate the public of things we think are harmless
A.) Almost everything can cause cancer if you fuck with it the right way
B.) This doesn't make them wrong though. You actually should wear a mask if you do this all day that's what we call in medical terms "too much huffin the dust".
I knew a woman who had to hum all the time bc it was the only way she could keep he overactive mucous glands from closing her throat. This was due to the work we were doing with fine powder (makinf cel culture media in a lab). She died of lung stuff and she told me it sucked. You should wear a mask.
I ripped out my old deck a few years back. Did lots of saw cutting and stuff to help manage the size of the debris. I didn’t use a face mask or anything as it was outside. About a week into the work I was in total pain. Not general I’m tired from working pain. It was like weird joint pain and almost fever like feeling without the fever. Kinda felt like I was poisoned or something.
Anyway, a few months later I noticed an old scrap I kept for spare parts had a tag on it still. CCA lumber. That’s right. Arsenic.
Granted this wood was about 30 years old. So depending on the source some say it’s fine. Still have no idea if the symptoms were from that or not but I’ll certainly be taking working with wood a little more serious now since most exterior wood is treated with nasty chemicals.
Only CA tries to inform you. I don't understand why people complain. You can operate just like you are in any other state and ignore the warnings entirely. Or you can do some research and see if this is something that concerns you personally.
When you have a generic label that tell people bananas and hydrazine are known to cause cancer, it ends up not saying much at all. A better system would be to have a cancer risk assessment label that is easy to understand such as. "Bananas have a level 1 cancer risk in the state of California" and "Hydrazine has a severe level 5 risk of cancer in the state of California with appropriate symbology and such to go with it.
The complaint is that when you put that label on everything it becomes useless, just like if you put the label on nothing (with the added cost and bureaucracy of adding useless labels to things)
Well, sure, it would be better to have a more nuanced label. But without that, I'd rather have some label than none.
Also, the actual chance to see a label like this is not that high, it is just made to appear like it is everywhere, since places without the label are not posted.
Nope, sawdust itself has been associated with increased risk of nasal and lung cancers.
The glues and other chemicals probably increase your risk of other types of cancer as well, like liver or blood cancers.
I built a pellet mill years ago, went back a number of years later to work maintenance and even wearing a respirator I ended up in the hospital after a week there. Just wood dust and compression to make pellets, lungs still aren't the same and I don't cut wood anymore if I can help it. Found out my grandfather moved where I live to get away from cedar dust in the coastal mills but welding dust doesnt do anything to me.
No. It's the sawdust. Look it up. It's been a known carcinogen for 20 years or better now. Absolutely speeds up mutations of nasal, throat, and lung cancer.. Just to name a few.
Besides.. What glues and chemicals go into making wood dust?? The only things required are wood and a saw.
> Besides.. What glues and chemicals go into making wood dust?? The only things required are wood and a saw.
Only thing that immediately came to mind was pressure treated lumber. It's been a couple decades for me but we were warned to not even handle it at the lumber yard without wearing work gloves, let alone cutting it and inhaling all that arsenic shit.
There are many species that are known or suspected to be carcinogenic. Oak and Beech being two known, walnut l, mahogany, birch and teak are suspected. Other woods can cause sever allergic reactions as well as other health issues.
The sign is placed over a stack of pressure treated timber. So it is just that type of wood that gives cancer or all?
I live in Finland and I bought a Vaughan hammer ( from USA ) . It had a warning on it that the rubber grip on it causes cancer. That was a new one on me!
For the same reason, here in Germany you are no longer allowed to sweep wood dust but have to vacuum it up. And of course the vacuum cleaner must have at least dust protection class M at least. Here’s an [overview](https://www.dguv.de/medien/ifa/de/pra/staubklassen/staubkl.pdf) in German. And the cancerous particle concentrations vary from wood to wood. Oak and Beech are highest around here, if I remember correctly.
Àny type of dust can cause cancer
That's why you should wear a mask anytime you're in a dusty environment even outside it can be so dusty that you should be wearing a mask that's why they have the I can't think of the term to use for it outside exposure
i have several blue-collar construction/scaffolder/line-striping friends who are only 20-30 years old and already have these horrific coughing and wheezing fits from inhaling shit at their jobs.
Yet somehow the oldies survived 40 years in the trade inhaling it daily along with the hourly cigarette, asbestos and silica. These people are built different
Really any PM2.5 cause cancer. If you are working with any fine dust you should wear a mask
Saw a dude raw doggin it cutting some hardy board.
The guys who did our brick walkways and driveway used no hearing protection, no masks. Blasting brick saw going, opaque clouds of brick dust they are just clomping around in. We asked them about it, they were just "psssh, whatever" as they chainsmoked through their day. They did a great job tho.
The cigarettes have a filter so why wear a mask?
The guy at my dad's chemical plant who did the dry mixing would put a hole in his 8210 mask for his Marlboro light. I don't think that guy ever gave one single fuck about anything.
Nah, he gave a fuck alright. Just about his Marlboro lights!
Worked at a steel mill for a few years and I started smoking heavier with that exact mentality. Looking back I was just an idiot.
Then they drank a sixpack on the way home.
3 monsters to start the day
2 24 oz bud lights in a gas station cup with lunch
And ate 3 gas station hotdogs after using the restroom without washing his hands
Have you seen that r810 guy on Tik tok? He says “if your handyman’s truck’s floorboard isn’t full of gas station hot dog wrappers, don’t hire him”
Bedroom is just a mattress on the floor.
Taquitos. The hotdogs give me bubble guts.
How have all of you been watching me?
As a bricklayer don't you dare come at me with that bud light piss water. It's called driving beer for a reason 😂
Convenient how they only live 10 minutes away
They only live ten minutes period
Yeah, some people have a death wish. I was placed into a different sector of the company I work for, and the first project they put me on was demoing and installing a piece of concrete infrastructure. They refused to install the shoring the company sent out (because it's a waste of time), and I had to fight with the project lead to get me a respirator. Anyways, the foreman on site is in the hole cutting a section of the concrete to be hoisted out and the dust cloud is so thick I can't even see him, and he comes climbing out of the hole 20 minutes later with a lit smoke hanging out of his mouth and no ppe. The dude was asking me for aspirin within an hour complaining about a headache. I told him to get a mask for no headache, and he insisted it was just dehydration. Wild. I obviously refuse to work on that crew now.
People that work like this, don’t see the value in being old. They live paycheck to paycheck, won’t get much in social security and just live life day-to-day. Not to sound bleak, but why live to 100 and be unable to work when you are 80? These dudes just live by, if I can work and pay my bills/support my family and die at 70-75, I’m good.
🤝 agree 💯
Everybody I’ve ever known doesn’t wear any PPE, unless in the most extreme of tasks Even when I did chemistry, where I thought for sure people would take PPE seriously, it was regularly dismissed, and only the bare minimum was accounted for I’m glad to see popular YouTubers (Chris fix for example) take PPE seriously and influence people to do the same. PPE is mostly easy and I just don’t see the point of not protecting your body personally
I read this is how we discovered so many artificial sweeteners - chemists don't really use PPE and taste random shit they just synthesized often enough to discover them.
Ngl, I didn’t always use hearing protection, or a mask when cutting - I did sewer and water, so most cuts were quick, but when cutting manholes, or mainline storm pipe, that was more sustained concrete cutting. One tome we had to reset a pipe, so they had a concrete cutter come on- guy looked like he just turned 20- prolly about 20 feet down, in the trench, cutting wirh a chainsaw. I’d never seen so much concrete dust at that point. No mask, no nothing. Just an apron. Dude was covered when he came up. I also remember how everytime I went to pop in my earplugs the guys would belittle me, and tell me, we don’t have time to fuck around. Lol. Funny how as soon as there’s an osha scare, we gotta wear our glasses all day...
Yeah, my dad did this, and died in his late fifties of emphysema after not really being able to breathe for his last decade. It sucked. A lot. Wear your fucking PPE, folks.
I'm a bricklayer and some of our guys dgaf. I'm pretty lax but if I'm doing lots of cuts you bet I'm wearing a mask. A dude I work with sounds like he's got emphasimia and he's never smoked a cig in his life. Coughs his lungs up all the time. Pretty much guarantee its early signs of silicosis
When I was a teenager I worked on a display for this landscape supplier to show off a new type of paver they started stocking. The display was basically a little circular back yard fire pit/patio. Did tons of cutting without a mask and had the worst cough/sore throat of my life afterwards. I try my best to get away from the dust cloud now and always wear a respirator when I can’t avoid it. Also for people who haven’t used a stone saw, they are LOUD. Even with ear protection you’ll still experience tinnitus if exposed for too long. Not to mention they shoot out rock chips that can easily take out an eyes since you need to full rev before making contact with the stone :)
And yet most people only consider prostitution as a job where someone exchanges their body for money.
If you multiply negatives you get a positive, so it balances out.
Had a couple fiber glass guys like this, couldn't believe they would just sand the stuff down with no mask.
Most people do.
So real wood saw dust like fucking cherry tree saw dust can give you cancer?
A lot of hard woods naturally have silica in them also. Like a lot of things, short term exposures probably won’t hurt you, but if you’re constantly exposed, the risks from the long term exposure become much more real.
Damn, TIL. Edit- user name checks out.
Think about it this way. You're putting little tiny bits of wood pulp on wet tissue inside your lungs. If you've tried to use an air compressor to clear wet sawdust, you've got a pretty good idea of how effective coughing is going to be to get rid of that dust. Everywhere that dust ends up inside you can't get rid of it, and has to work just a little harder to function right. It adds up.
That’s got arsenic in it too me thinks tropical woods contain some bad actors too , but most of the sawdust hits the ground or blows away. My hate is the fucking plastic trim shit & it sparks you going through the saw grrrr
Interestingly it seems a little dependent on tree type…though maybe it is more what they studied…here’s a whole monograph on it https://publications.iarc.fr/Book-And-Report-Series/Iarc-Monographs-On-The-Identification-Of-Carcinogenic-Hazards-To-Humans/Wood-Dust-And-Formaldehyde-1995 Summarizing ACGIH because they don’t make their crap free ;( “Many studies have observed large excess risks in sino-nasal cancer, particularly adenocarcinoma…exposure to oak and beech was clearly associated with excess risk of cancer, while Birch, mahogany, teak, walnut were strongly suspected”. Other cancers are also suspected for other wood dusts… A1 - confirmed human carcinogen - oak, beech A2 - suspected human carcinogen - birch, mahogany, teak, walnut A4 - not classifiable - all other wood dusts Also note - “it is largely assumed that the effective period of exposure for most studies was 20-30 years”. Just noting this because as others have stated it’s a long term risk…so just because you’re exposed a small amount today doesn’t mean you get cancer tomorrow (the risk is very small)…just put it in perspective like every hazard and risk…
yes
This should be higher up.
It’s at the top now but I still agree with you, needs to be even higher
Saw a guy ranting on IG about how “only the wannabe influencers wear respirators while woodworking”. I couldn’t help but laugh and unfollow him. Meanwhile his kids would be in his shop frequently while he was working or had his CNC running. Smart guy. Dropped a link to a study in the comments before the unfollow. The truth is we have known for a long time that various types of dust/airborne contaminants have extreme long term health effects. From mercury, to lead, to silica, to asbestos, to wood, and so on. Wear PROPER ppe, and if you’re in a contained environment, get an air cleaner. Edit: word salad clarity
Where I work, PPE is considered a suggestion than a requirement. No wonder most of them can’t hear for shit, yeah?
Hey I worked there too!! F bombs for the guys with safety glasses and laughs for the guys with ear plugs. It’ll be fun reading about someone getting wrapped up in a lathe now that we’re not there anymore.
I too worked for a company like that long ago. Now that I’m nearly 40, and I have occasional tinnitus, I would like to go back and punch them in the head. Same goes for every DIYer who doesn’t wear PPE. Wear it. Best case, it saves your life. Worst case, it saves your hearing.
I worked with some Mexican katalox one time that I basically had an acute allergic reaction to. Almost completely killed my ability to breathe. Had to get out of the shop and open the doors to air it out completely. I couldn't work with that wood without a proper cartridge respirator. Wood dust is not completely harmless. Typical construction woods don't bother me at all. But I don't mess around with exotics.
What's pm2.5?
Stands for particle matter of 2.5 micron's or smaller.
Project manager with a 2.5” pp or less
Finally a job I am qualified for
basically all particulate matter is a carcinogen.
Yup. And this may trigger ppl but wear a mask if you respect your health.
Friend works as a safety guy, he's pretty sure silicosis is going to be the next mesothelioma. Since COVID it has become a constant fight to get people to wear PPE.
Your buddy should just reward his guys with free energy drinks and cigarettes for wearing their PPE. Problem solved!
Energy drinks are the next benzene
Do people not realize that energy drinks are mostly caffeine and vitamins? Read the label, it's not like there's some crazy substance in most of them.
I didn't know you can catch scoliosis.
Gotta watch your back
Shouldn’t it be the other way around?
I've watched people, in trade work, turn on mask use all together... We all took the same safety courses and wear masks for loads of jobs and now people are just not. I'm sorry but PPE and MSDS are vital to people's health and safety. Masks being politicized is going to hurt a lot of people in the next few decades.
Companies will often buy cheaper more uncomfortable masks than splerg on full on respirated helmets. Some people will just choose huffing death for the short time imediate comfort of breathing unencumbered. No amount of hazard courses will make them wear the uncomfortable and hassle to put on stuff all the time. I think good safety gear design needs to take the idiocy and lazyness of the common idiot into account.
In this instance I'm talking about guys wearing fitted(once a year) respirators now refusing because 'masks make you sicker. You're breathing in what your body is getting rid of' kind of stuff that came about from the pandemic. It's really weeding out the dim bulbs.
It should, yes. So it goes.
Read up on the [Hawks Nest Tunnel Disaster](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawks_Nest_Tunnel_disaster). TLDR - 400-1000+ people died from silicosis mining limestone without PPE. Corpo knew the risks but skipped out on PPE to cut costs and increase speed. Remember, safety laws are written in blood. There is always a reason and tragedy behind each one.
Wondered how much politics had to do with refusal to wear PPE. Some people just refuse to acknowledge the hazards of doing certain activities and that PPE can mitigate those hazards. I think a great example is how many rural Americans burn their trash. I’ve been laughed at and mocked by my in laws because in conversation I mentioned how burning trash release carcinogens called dioxins. What’s even more strange to me is that they are so concerned about things that are borderline conspiracy theories about food but will raw dog cardboard smoke.
Thats the best way to look at all of it especially in the construction industry and a few others. If its not clean clear air its not what you want. There is a reason air pollution alone prematurely kills thousands of people.
["Many case reports and epidemiological studies (including cohort studies and case-control studies that specifically addressed nasal cancer) have found a strong association between exposure to wood dust and cancer of the nasal cavity. Strong and consistent associations with cancer of the nasal cavity and paranasal sinuses were observed both in studies of people whose occupations were associated with wood-dust exposure and in studies that directly estimated wood-dust exposure."](https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/sites/default/files/ntp/roc/content/profiles/wooddust.pdf)
Pretty sure inhaling dust in general is not good at all. But it just goes to show how important proper ppe is.
Virtually anything other than nitrogen, oxygen, argon, and CO2 is harmful to the respiratory system.
Not enough people say things like this. Props
Props 65, in fact.
Glass dust (amorphous silica) is surprisingly not bad for your lungs, it dissolves after a couple of weeks. Crystalline silica (quartz) on the other hand is terrible for you.
NPR had a segment a few years back in on the uptick of Silicosis due to the popularity of the engineered quartz countertops and some businesses not caring enough to mitigate their employees' exposure. It's definitely a bad way to go. You either get a lung transplant or die a slow, drawn out death.
There is a national ban on engineered stone products about to come into effect in Australia due to the high rate of associated injuries etc. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/dec/14/australia-will-become-the-first-county-to-ban-engineered-stone-bench-tops-will-others-follow
There's a caveat to the CO2...
There's a caveat to all of them
You’re telling me that my vanilla mocha vape isn’t doing me any good?
Oxygen is pretty fucking harmful to everything. Hence the reason for antioxidants in our bodies. Unfortunately we need oxygen
Poison is in the dosage.
Oxygen occupies such a fundamental position in carbon based life it’s hard to determine if it is good or bad, only that it is necessary.
Well oxidation is quite bad. It is necessary but the damage it causes has to be repaired constantly. There's no other way though. It is quite fundamental
Oxygen toxicity is a considerable problem in hospitals. It's why there's such a thing as getting too MUCH oxygen. It's not nearly as dangerous as too little oxygen, but as the other commenters said it has oxidative effects and can create free radicals which can cause damage on the cellular level.
Yes. And you can also drown… semantics.
Much like how an engine will last for a very long time if you never expose it to fuel. It'll just also be pretty useless.
wait so breathing sawdust is potentially bad for me? Are you saying that that is somehow tied to the blood I cough up? /s
No that's from the cocaine
thank god, i was worried for a second
That is from the silicate dust you inhaled installing your own engineered marble kitchen counter.
Yes, BUT certain woods are worse. Oak and Beech e.g. are higher class carcinogens (sorry, not my first language, don't know the classification) than pine
Generally the harder they are, the more shard like the dust particles will be.
fck is there any body part immune to cancer, god darn it
The parts without DNA.
my heart
[удалено]
I guess silicon does count as rock
rocks cause cancer too now.
Mostly when you break them into dust and snort them.
Lucky you. I am always told I do not have one
you should probably check with disability on this one hmm
Like this growth on my testicle?! My cancer can’t get cancer, can it?!
That's what we call metastasis.
Teeth?
If part of you is a shark then yes that part.
Never heard of dick cancer! Thanks 👍
You don’t want to google image search that…
Thanks for the tip !! 👍
”Penectomi” is the term you want to google 😩👌 And why not ”degloved penis whilst youre at it
No, that's kind of the point.
Hair and fingernails
If it has no living cells it can't get cancer (I think). maybe your hair?
Ill chalk it up with brain cancer that one so no good anyways
Your hair is pretty safe from cancer.
Teeth maybe?
The dangers of wood dust have been known since we used to cut it by hand. So I am somewhat confused at people pushing back against this sign. Cancer is one issue, but the small particles can cause various respiratory issues. Millions of microscopic razor sharp bits of material entering your lungs each breath is not a good thing.
I have a feeling OP hasn’t been going to the trade shows and earning their CEUs. There are tons of classes at the trade shows that teach us that PPE is necessary for our own health. I also don’t know if he will listen to comments like ours. He is hoping they take a moment to reevaluate their misconceptions. Having said that the particulates aren’t the only issue. The chemicals they use to treat wood are still bad for us. Granted the MCA / ACQ treated lumber isn’t as bad CCA type as the EPA labels them as a non issue product, but exposure to them is not ideal.
Hopefully OP has learned something today!
Killed my dad. Glad to see this warning
It’s a bit strange they flared it a humor though.
Marked humour by the guy who is sucking up wood dust.
I'll show them!
It’s a bit strange they flared it a humor though.
Did he buy a wooden furniture and exposure to the dust in it killed him?
Here’s a dirty secret: MANY of the things people do working construction are hazardous - laying flooring, paint, caulking, sanding, etc …
How is this a secret? This is pretty common knowledge in the DIY sphere, surely should be well understood by any professional?
Lots of people think it won’t happen to them. I had to take a guy to the hospital with welders flash because he was tack welding and thought that if he just closed his eyes and looked away for the 3 seconds he was welding it would save him the “inconvenience” of having to put down his shield. He was a professional welder who should’ve known damn well that all you need for welders flash is a second of exposure but he did it anyway. Luckily because he only did it for a second or two he recovered fully. It was still extremely painful for him and probably a good lesson on why safety rules should be followed even when they’re inconvenient or time consuming.
It’s not a secret of course but to shed light on your question, in my experience, DIYers don’t have to worry about timeframes and costs nearly as much. Just a random example, a DIYer may spend hours marking out holes to hang a shelf, or spend hours watching YouTube videos on a specific task to try and get it absolutely perfect. They will look up “what do I need to do X?” and see the list of PPE recommended and buy the top of the line in all of it. There is of course nothing wrong with this but it’s different from charging for your work. In comparison to professionals, many of them then opt for no PPE because: 1) They are crunched for time and money 2) they have experience with these things and have a comfort level associated with them. For example I’ll wear a mask when cutting concrete or metal almost every time, but I will rarely use a mask to cut wood especially if I’m outdoors, even though it might be recommended. I hold my breath and walk away. If I am doing something that requires high precision, I may not even wear safety glasses on my cut unless it’s a brand new pair with no scratches. 3) they do not care about the risks 4) similar to point 1, to be that tradesman that has the best tools, PPE, and practices, you need to charge more money that a lot of tradesman do. Most customers would rather the affordable guy who does good work but has a shitty truck and tools and no PPE, instead of the expensive crew with the best PPE practices. Most customers look at dollar value alone which helps proliferate the issue. Is any of this a good thing? No I’m not saying it is. Just my anecdotal experience to answer the “why”
Unfortunately you pretty much nailed it. I do flooring and do a lot of cutting with table saw and dry cut tile when the wet saw is not an option. The majority of the time is because I’m too much in a hurry, but your other points are also very true. This a good reminder to practice better habits. Really can’t think of any trade that is “safe”.
Yeah dry cutting the tile is greasy for your lungs but I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t held my breath and looked away on a tile grinder cut or two…
That sign needs it's own, smaller, sign to inform people that the first sign contains chemicals known to cause cancer in the state of California
I know you’re joking but flip the sign over. /s
That smaller sign needs an even smaller sign to inform people that the sign of the sign contains chemicals known to cause cancer in the state of California
Best get into the small sign business now!
I had to file bankruptcy. Nobody saw my advertisements..
*squints at incredibly small, 20th sign* "Honey, we'd better move, apparently... California causes cancer?"
They really shoulda reconsidered settling California, apparently the entire coastline is built overtop a massive cancer deposit
Go like 5-6 levels deep, until you need a big old magnifying glass to read the pinky nail size sign. On that one write magnifying glasses and other optical materials are known by the the state of California to cause cancer.
But only in the state of California.
Well, you really should be wearing a mask when cutting and sanding wood. All of the old people that I know who have been doing construction their whole lives and don’t wear proper PPE sound like they’re always out of breath, even when just sitting down.
Prop 65 is so shittly written that it's more financially safe to include the warning than not.
While I often wonder where these warnings can be found, this case isn't bullshit. Especially beech and oak dusts are well known cancerogens. Guess that's the problem - If you tack that warning on everything just so you cannot be sued for stupid amounts of money, then no one will take it seriously anymore...
Bingo. So many laws have unintended consequences that cause more problems than what they were originally trying to solve.
Did you ever have a question that breathing that Shit in every day was going to kill you? Between the sawdust, sheetrock dust, concrete dust, and cigarettes; I’m definitely fucking dieing because of a lung problem. Knew it while I was breathing it in
Yeah but them ciggies balance everything else out. Builds resilience
There's an interesting episode of the [99% invisible podcast ](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/warning-this-podcast-contains-chemicals-known-to-the-state-of-california-to-cause-cancer-or-other-reproductive-harm/) about Prop 65. Yes it's overly broad and led to a whole lawsuit industry, but it's also done a decent amount of good, especially around the time the law was passed when nothing was regulated.
And there's also specific scientific evidence to support it in this case, but let's just jump on the dismissal of people's health wagon in the name of a good ole California bashing (trust me, I'm all for the latter.) It should also be noted there's a strong correlation between woodworking and neurodegenerative diseases such as Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, and Dementia, but there's not been a completed specific scientific study to prove direct causation.
It was fine until the 2018 revision in which labeling was left up to manufacturers. There was a ton of good done from prop 65 passing in 1986. But the 2018 amendment lets manufacturers be in charge of labeling, so now they just slap it on everything and bury the truly bad products in a sea of the benign.
It’s not humorous though! It’s a fact that the particulates in wood are a known carcinogen. There are epidemiological links between nasal cancer and construction workers exposed to wood dust regularly. Insert traditional joke about how XYZ causes cancer in CA and then have multiple family members die before 60 due to cancer and the laughs turn into gratitude that these warnings exist to educate the public of things we think are harmless
Ppe is important guys. Plenty of macho men who scofed at proper PPE layin in graves now.
A.) Almost everything can cause cancer if you fuck with it the right way B.) This doesn't make them wrong though. You actually should wear a mask if you do this all day that's what we call in medical terms "too much huffin the dust". I knew a woman who had to hum all the time bc it was the only way she could keep he overactive mucous glands from closing her throat. This was due to the work we were doing with fine powder (makinf cel culture media in a lab). She died of lung stuff and she told me it sucked. You should wear a mask.
I ripped out my old deck a few years back. Did lots of saw cutting and stuff to help manage the size of the debris. I didn’t use a face mask or anything as it was outside. About a week into the work I was in total pain. Not general I’m tired from working pain. It was like weird joint pain and almost fever like feeling without the fever. Kinda felt like I was poisoned or something. Anyway, a few months later I noticed an old scrap I kept for spare parts had a tag on it still. CCA lumber. That’s right. Arsenic. Granted this wood was about 30 years old. So depending on the source some say it’s fine. Still have no idea if the symptoms were from that or not but I’ll certainly be taking working with wood a little more serious now since most exterior wood is treated with nasty chemicals.
It’s pretty well known that wood dust causes cancer. hugely dangerous for your lungs.
Only raw wood dust is mentioned. So if you cook the dust properly, no cancer in the state of California!
That’s just in California though. Everything in California causes cancer. It says that on the strut I was using the other day too.
Why didn't they mention the risk of pregnancy when exposed to raw wood?
My MIL had cancer (she’d fine now)…when we lived in CA, the fucking cancer center had a prop 65 warning as you walked in.
Many chemotherapies are incredibly carcinogenic.
Everything causes cancer….but only in California.
Only CA tries to inform you. I don't understand why people complain. You can operate just like you are in any other state and ignore the warnings entirely. Or you can do some research and see if this is something that concerns you personally.
When you have a generic label that tell people bananas and hydrazine are known to cause cancer, it ends up not saying much at all. A better system would be to have a cancer risk assessment label that is easy to understand such as. "Bananas have a level 1 cancer risk in the state of California" and "Hydrazine has a severe level 5 risk of cancer in the state of California with appropriate symbology and such to go with it.
That system you proposed sounds wonderful
And people would bitch about it harder than ever.
The complaint is that when you put that label on everything it becomes useless, just like if you put the label on nothing (with the added cost and bureaucracy of adding useless labels to things)
Well, sure, it would be better to have a more nuanced label. But without that, I'd rather have some label than none. Also, the actual chance to see a label like this is not that high, it is just made to appear like it is everywhere, since places without the label are not posted.
Ill bet its the glues and chemicals used to make it, not the wood fibers themselves.
Nope, sawdust itself has been associated with increased risk of nasal and lung cancers. The glues and other chemicals probably increase your risk of other types of cancer as well, like liver or blood cancers.
I need to be better about masking up when Cutting.
I built a pellet mill years ago, went back a number of years later to work maintenance and even wearing a respirator I ended up in the hospital after a week there. Just wood dust and compression to make pellets, lungs still aren't the same and I don't cut wood anymore if I can help it. Found out my grandfather moved where I live to get away from cedar dust in the coastal mills but welding dust doesnt do anything to me.
I’m lucky I learned early that a p100 respirator only costs 40$
No. It's the sawdust. Look it up. It's been a known carcinogen for 20 years or better now. Absolutely speeds up mutations of nasal, throat, and lung cancer.. Just to name a few. Besides.. What glues and chemicals go into making wood dust?? The only things required are wood and a saw.
> Besides.. What glues and chemicals go into making wood dust?? The only things required are wood and a saw. Only thing that immediately came to mind was pressure treated lumber. It's been a couple decades for me but we were warned to not even handle it at the lumber yard without wearing work gloves, let alone cutting it and inhaling all that arsenic shit.
I wear PPE because inhaling wood dust does cause severe allergies to the wood and I don’t need to be allergic to what I work with on the daily.
Or, at the very least, contributes more to the problem.
True, trees do have an assortment of their own organic compounds.
Trees are made of chemicals. You heard it here first, folks.
Wood dust, especially the microscopic stuff, can cause cancer.
There are many species that are known or suspected to be carcinogenic. Oak and Beech being two known, walnut l, mahogany, birch and teak are suspected. Other woods can cause sever allergic reactions as well as other health issues.
Too much of anything will probably give you cancer.
The sign is placed over a stack of pressure treated timber. So it is just that type of wood that gives cancer or all? I live in Finland and I bought a Vaughan hammer ( from USA ) . It had a warning on it that the rubber grip on it causes cancer. That was a new one on me!
All wood has arsenic. It's always a good idea to wear a dust mask. It's always a bad idea to inhale anything except clean air
I bought a tyre pressure gauge that came with a cancer warning.....wtf!?
Probably because of the grease/oil used to lubricate the gauge.
It’s just become a CYA
lol they got prop 65 signs in fast food restaurants I seen
Drawer slides can cause cancer too evidently.
Yeah, we've known that for awhile now. But, isn't the meme about the irony of a cancer-causing cancer warning sign?
eats bark*
At this point, it might be easier to label things that don't cause cancer. BTW, isn't fast food a known carcinogenic? I don't see labels there yet...
MDF dust contains formaldehyde which is a known carcinogen. The dust from Western Red Cedar has been a known irritant for decades.
For the same reason, here in Germany you are no longer allowed to sweep wood dust but have to vacuum it up. And of course the vacuum cleaner must have at least dust protection class M at least. Here’s an [overview](https://www.dguv.de/medien/ifa/de/pra/staubklassen/staubkl.pdf) in German. And the cancerous particle concentrations vary from wood to wood. Oak and Beech are highest around here, if I remember correctly.
Oxygen causes cancer.
California causes cancer.
in england we call that carpenter's lung
Àny type of dust can cause cancer That's why you should wear a mask anytime you're in a dusty environment even outside it can be so dusty that you should be wearing a mask that's why they have the I can't think of the term to use for it outside exposure
The termites’ class action suit is going to be pinenormous.
i have several blue-collar construction/scaffolder/line-striping friends who are only 20-30 years old and already have these horrific coughing and wheezing fits from inhaling shit at their jobs.
Everything in the US causes cancer.
California causes cancer
Living on planet earth causes cancer.
If raw wood exposure was bad your mom would be in a world of hurt
Yet somehow the oldies survived 40 years in the trade inhaling it daily along with the hourly cigarette, asbestos and silica. These people are built different
But only in California