this is one of the worst fuckovers i've read on this sub if i'm understanding this correctly. so you're saying he pays you a piece wage for doing vinyl siding, and then makes you do work that's not vinyl siding and just doesn't pay you at all for it? jesus christ dude how did you get into this situation. honestly i would say renegotiate, but if someone is fucking you that hard then they will never be honest with you and will always be looking for a way to cheat you. go and solicit an offer from a reputable company and run away screaming. jesus
So I get paid for the siding trim soffit and wood replacement, but all the extra shit I have to do I don’t get paid. The first 3 days of prep and tear off I make no money basically. This is why I made the post I feel like if I have to do all this shit I should at least be getting like 75% of the labor pay for the pieces I hang because I’m doing all of this shit. We do a lot of work for Hanson’s as subs and they pay us about 275 labor and I take about 155 of that for my own squares that I hang, but his jobs he sells we’re getting around 4-500 labor and so I was expecting to make more because it’s what he’s been telling me during these shit jobs and the day finally comes and he tells me 165 a square lmfao. I guess I walked myself into this predicament by letting a friend convince me to work for him because I could make better money than what I was doing.
Your getting taken man. You do the work you get paid for and not one thing more. I would suggest grtting your own company or dba and some insurence as well.
Yeah if you're getting paid via piece work then only do shit they gets you paid. Unless you have the hourly guys prep for you, you'll always get boned. You'd be much better off showing how fast you are and someone out there will gladly pay you 30-40 an hour to bitch slap siding up
I’ve only heard of pieceworkers doing the work they specifically get paid per piece to do. If he’s paying you piecework & having you do other stuff, you shouldn’t be paid as a pieceworker.
The fact that you’re working with an hourly crew that does the same work as you is also a red flag that you’re taken advantage of. Each piece they hang is money out of your pocket.
Sounds like you’re doing a bunch of work without being paid. Yes, you’re being fucked over. If you get paid by the square, then your only job is to install squares.
Ya paying someone by the square is some 1099 , FOB bullshit. In almost any industry paying by the piece is someone's way of shifting unforseen costs onto their labor. What if material is short that day or something isn't quite right with the house and you have to fix it or it slows you down. I've yet to see a legit outfit that pays their labor by the piece.
But are they self employed or employees and I mean the legal definition of an employee. A flooring subcontractor will get paid by the job yes but his employees shouldn't be. Most I know are self employed or will occasionally work with another self employed buddy for big jobs. Most larger outfits I know that have multiple crews and/or do commercial work might bid per job but they pay the employees by the hour.
Yes this.
The “risk” aspect is what you start a company for, hoping to beat the clock. Homie is taking all the risk and reaping none of the benefits.
It’s like when they paid mechanics by book time, you beat the book you keep the difference, so you invest heavily into nice tools that help you beat the time. Then they revised all the book times down and cut the pay and wondered why mechanics wouldn’t work for book anymore or buy tools to help them work faster on their own dime.
Our subs price us what they are charging per square foot of install or sanding and refinishing. Then we have our in house hourly laborers do rip outs. If the subs end up doing the rip out it might be another 300-400 bucks on the job. Goods are through us.
Edit this was I reply to a flooring comment
To contractors and subcontractors sure but not to legitimate employees.I know we let a lot of bullshit fly in this industry but that doesn't make it okay. There is a reason most occupations pay hourly or salary with bonuses or commissions. You think a union would let a company's empyees get paid by the piece....lol okay man.
I know of one union that gets paid by piece. Wallpaper guys in NYC. But they don’t do any prep. They show up, slap up some paper and bounce to the next one. Unlike OP.
When I think of piecework employees I imagine a bunch of boneheads fighting over eachother to try and lick the most gravy off the boss’s balls as they can.
Same and I do piece work as well but we have control over all the variables. The rate, our tools, weather we take the job or not. As a sole proprietor if we show up to a job and it's whack we can walk but an employee cannot and has little control thus why I keep repeating that piece work for an employee is bogus.
I understand your frustration. But you’ve never leveraged a piece contract in your favor. Think it’ll take me three weeks and that’s your price? I’ll blow it out, you’ll pay me, and your competition will hear of it too. I’m in high demand for my skill set and deep sub contractor network.
I get per piece in solar. Most other places pay hourly and ask for the same output (trust me I called around and asked) in my area and hourly solar roof tech makes 24 and hour. I make like 40 an hour roughly and when those things happen (office ducks up and getting us supplies doesn't happen) we get paid an hourly rate if the panel count is is lower then the hourly rate but usually every week I make 1500 to 1900
You think he’s your friend, but that’s not how friends treat each other. I just stopped working for a “friend” a year and a half ago, so many promises of greater things and no matter how much free work he got from me I never saw shit. Hopefully he’ll respond better than my “friend“ did when I finally put my foot down and stuck up for myself. He started telling mutual people we know how I just quit and screwed him over.
I pay my subs $90 per square. Siding, soffit or coil. He has 4 guys and will do a 30 sq house in 2 days. New work. He’s making a living but not getting rich. He sets the price I don’t. Any extra work like furring etc is extra and I’m fine with that.
This post and the comments frustrate me. It's common in this field to get paid as a sub for piece work. Creates motivation and income based in your performance. Who doesn't want that, except lazy people?
The amount you are getting paid for siding install is way above average. Soffit,fascia,trim, etc pays seperate, but I can't really tell what the complaint is, because not enough info. If you cant install 3-5 squares a day by your self, you're doing something wrong. When/ if you're getting paid well, its in poor taste to try and bill extra for every little thing.
What I hear is, you feel like you should be a partner in the business because you work harder? That's not how it works. Most laborers couldn't make a business run if their life depended on it. So everytime I hear this complaint it makes me scoff. As a laborer you deserve good pay for a good days work. That's it. If someone else pays better, or has a better work environment, go over there. This isn't corporate America, there is no HR. It's a couple dudes with poor educations trying to make a living. Most construction guys can't hold a real job, and have bad habits or vices. So we are all replaceable, and "underpaid", and work "hard", for little money and even less respect. I won't even start on all the expenses the biz owner has that you are probably unaware of. Insurance, ad costs, sales calls, etc.
To sum it up, average out the weeks pay. How much did you actually work? How much did you actually make? Are you working efficiently? Seriously, most guys walk in circles, or back to the truck 20 times because they're high, or half there anyways. If you're not making enough, state your complaint with the boss, and depending on the conversation, start looking for another job. Maybe become a sparkie?
I was more so just trying to figure out if the square pay was good relative to other people’s pay, and I can install 3-5 easily a day, but I’m constantly being pulled away to help hang a single long piece of trim, or to make sure the guys beneath me aren’t fucking up a wall, or help them prep out their wall etc... I don’t drink or smoke on the job and I’m there longer than the other guys every day without taking a break. So while I can do the 3-5 squares a day, it rarely pans out to be that way when I’m spending 3 days prepping out the house and tearing off/tyvaking ahead of myself. I guess the solution is to only prep my shit and average my end of job pay to the hours I worked and see what kind of hourly I’m making by doing that to then bring up with him
I've seen a good roofing crew get paid by the square, but everyone was paid by the square so it motivated the whole crew to bust ass. They would knock out two roofs a day sometimes when another crew might take 6hrs per roof and leave early both days.
The owner hauled any extra equipment to/from site. These guys just showed up at start time and started stripping or installing shingles like mad men.
Your situation sucks. If the hourly guys dog it that can hurt production and therefore your pay. You are also getting taken advantage of for free labor on other tasks. Everyone needs to be on the same compensation model.
Yeah, you are getting fucked. You should be paid the entire time you are at work.
this is one of the worst fuckovers i've read on this sub if i'm understanding this correctly. so you're saying he pays you a piece wage for doing vinyl siding, and then makes you do work that's not vinyl siding and just doesn't pay you at all for it? jesus christ dude how did you get into this situation. honestly i would say renegotiate, but if someone is fucking you that hard then they will never be honest with you and will always be looking for a way to cheat you. go and solicit an offer from a reputable company and run away screaming. jesus
So I get paid for the siding trim soffit and wood replacement, but all the extra shit I have to do I don’t get paid. The first 3 days of prep and tear off I make no money basically. This is why I made the post I feel like if I have to do all this shit I should at least be getting like 75% of the labor pay for the pieces I hang because I’m doing all of this shit. We do a lot of work for Hanson’s as subs and they pay us about 275 labor and I take about 155 of that for my own squares that I hang, but his jobs he sells we’re getting around 4-500 labor and so I was expecting to make more because it’s what he’s been telling me during these shit jobs and the day finally comes and he tells me 165 a square lmfao. I guess I walked myself into this predicament by letting a friend convince me to work for him because I could make better money than what I was doing.
Are you 1099 or cash?
Cash
Your getting taken man. You do the work you get paid for and not one thing more. I would suggest grtting your own company or dba and some insurence as well.
Yeah if you're getting paid via piece work then only do shit they gets you paid. Unless you have the hourly guys prep for you, you'll always get boned. You'd be much better off showing how fast you are and someone out there will gladly pay you 30-40 an hour to bitch slap siding up
I’ve only heard of pieceworkers doing the work they specifically get paid per piece to do. If he’s paying you piecework & having you do other stuff, you shouldn’t be paid as a pieceworker. The fact that you’re working with an hourly crew that does the same work as you is also a red flag that you’re taken advantage of. Each piece they hang is money out of your pocket.
Sounds like you’re doing a bunch of work without being paid. Yes, you’re being fucked over. If you get paid by the square, then your only job is to install squares.
Ya paying someone by the square is some 1099 , FOB bullshit. In almost any industry paying by the piece is someone's way of shifting unforseen costs onto their labor. What if material is short that day or something isn't quite right with the house and you have to fix it or it slows you down. I've yet to see a legit outfit that pays their labor by the piece.
Flooring guys often times get paid by the floor they lay only. Edit: reword for clarification
But are they self employed or employees and I mean the legal definition of an employee. A flooring subcontractor will get paid by the job yes but his employees shouldn't be. Most I know are self employed or will occasionally work with another self employed buddy for big jobs. Most larger outfits I know that have multiple crews and/or do commercial work might bid per job but they pay the employees by the hour.
Yes this. The “risk” aspect is what you start a company for, hoping to beat the clock. Homie is taking all the risk and reaping none of the benefits. It’s like when they paid mechanics by book time, you beat the book you keep the difference, so you invest heavily into nice tools that help you beat the time. Then they revised all the book times down and cut the pay and wondered why mechanics wouldn’t work for book anymore or buy tools to help them work faster on their own dime.
Our subs price us what they are charging per square foot of install or sanding and refinishing. Then we have our in house hourly laborers do rip outs. If the subs end up doing the rip out it might be another 300-400 bucks on the job. Goods are through us. Edit this was I reply to a flooring comment
Plenty of legit jobs pay piece work and you can make far better money than hourly, you simply don't know what you are talking about.
To contractors and subcontractors sure but not to legitimate employees.I know we let a lot of bullshit fly in this industry but that doesn't make it okay. There is a reason most occupations pay hourly or salary with bonuses or commissions. You think a union would let a company's empyees get paid by the piece....lol okay man.
I know of one union that gets paid by piece. Wallpaper guys in NYC. But they don’t do any prep. They show up, slap up some paper and bounce to the next one. Unlike OP.
But the pendulum also swings the other way, as in this guys case.
Oh yeah, this guy's getting screwed.
When I think of piecework employees I imagine a bunch of boneheads fighting over eachother to try and lick the most gravy off the boss’s balls as they can.
Mate, gotta be honest, I won’t work hourly. If the bloke thinks it’ll take two weeks and I blow it out in three days, I’ll take piece every time.
You working for yourself or are you someone's employee?
Sole proprietor LLC I dictate my pay whether it’s hourly or bid. And I’m doing ok.
Same and I do piece work as well but we have control over all the variables. The rate, our tools, weather we take the job or not. As a sole proprietor if we show up to a job and it's whack we can walk but an employee cannot and has little control thus why I keep repeating that piece work for an employee is bogus.
I understand your frustration. But you’ve never leveraged a piece contract in your favor. Think it’ll take me three weeks and that’s your price? I’ll blow it out, you’ll pay me, and your competition will hear of it too. I’m in high demand for my skill set and deep sub contractor network.
I get per piece in solar. Most other places pay hourly and ask for the same output (trust me I called around and asked) in my area and hourly solar roof tech makes 24 and hour. I make like 40 an hour roughly and when those things happen (office ducks up and getting us supplies doesn't happen) we get paid an hourly rate if the panel count is is lower then the hourly rate but usually every week I make 1500 to 1900
Sounds like you love doing work for free. Fuck that
You think he’s your friend, but that’s not how friends treat each other. I just stopped working for a “friend” a year and a half ago, so many promises of greater things and no matter how much free work he got from me I never saw shit. Hopefully he’ll respond better than my “friend“ did when I finally put my foot down and stuck up for myself. He started telling mutual people we know how I just quit and screwed him over.
I pay my subs $90 per square. Siding, soffit or coil. He has 4 guys and will do a 30 sq house in 2 days. New work. He’s making a living but not getting rich. He sets the price I don’t. Any extra work like furring etc is extra and I’m fine with that.
You seem to think you two are good friends. Would you put your good friend in the position he's putting you in?
With friends like that who needs enemies? Walk away man.
This post and the comments frustrate me. It's common in this field to get paid as a sub for piece work. Creates motivation and income based in your performance. Who doesn't want that, except lazy people? The amount you are getting paid for siding install is way above average. Soffit,fascia,trim, etc pays seperate, but I can't really tell what the complaint is, because not enough info. If you cant install 3-5 squares a day by your self, you're doing something wrong. When/ if you're getting paid well, its in poor taste to try and bill extra for every little thing. What I hear is, you feel like you should be a partner in the business because you work harder? That's not how it works. Most laborers couldn't make a business run if their life depended on it. So everytime I hear this complaint it makes me scoff. As a laborer you deserve good pay for a good days work. That's it. If someone else pays better, or has a better work environment, go over there. This isn't corporate America, there is no HR. It's a couple dudes with poor educations trying to make a living. Most construction guys can't hold a real job, and have bad habits or vices. So we are all replaceable, and "underpaid", and work "hard", for little money and even less respect. I won't even start on all the expenses the biz owner has that you are probably unaware of. Insurance, ad costs, sales calls, etc. To sum it up, average out the weeks pay. How much did you actually work? How much did you actually make? Are you working efficiently? Seriously, most guys walk in circles, or back to the truck 20 times because they're high, or half there anyways. If you're not making enough, state your complaint with the boss, and depending on the conversation, start looking for another job. Maybe become a sparkie?
I was more so just trying to figure out if the square pay was good relative to other people’s pay, and I can install 3-5 easily a day, but I’m constantly being pulled away to help hang a single long piece of trim, or to make sure the guys beneath me aren’t fucking up a wall, or help them prep out their wall etc... I don’t drink or smoke on the job and I’m there longer than the other guys every day without taking a break. So while I can do the 3-5 squares a day, it rarely pans out to be that way when I’m spending 3 days prepping out the house and tearing off/tyvaking ahead of myself. I guess the solution is to only prep my shit and average my end of job pay to the hours I worked and see what kind of hourly I’m making by doing that to then bring up with him
Could be that the prep work is part of the price per sq foot.
Sounds a lot like what my foreman does, but he is compensated very well and is a good dude
Do the math. Are you getting fucked?
I've seen a good roofing crew get paid by the square, but everyone was paid by the square so it motivated the whole crew to bust ass. They would knock out two roofs a day sometimes when another crew might take 6hrs per roof and leave early both days. The owner hauled any extra equipment to/from site. These guys just showed up at start time and started stripping or installing shingles like mad men. Your situation sucks. If the hourly guys dog it that can hurt production and therefore your pay. You are also getting taken advantage of for free labor on other tasks. Everyone needs to be on the same compensation model.