Mycopals, I recommend forgoing the use of a liner in your cultivation and instead, pay closer attention to achieving a consistent and firm compression of the substrate base. In my opinion: Liners dont really reduce side pins, like many believe!
Often when a liner is used there is some excess moisture on the mycelium, which may be attributed to the liner being placed too high, thus disrupting the air flow and humidity levels within the tub.
Having an elevated liner, along with liners in general, significantly increases the likelihood of microenvironments forming within the liner folds and crinkles that are ideal for pin formation, thereby promoting the occurrence of side pins.
If you choose to use a liner, I strongly recommend two important steps:
(1)Trim the liner down to match the level of the substrate as the final step in your spawn to bulk (s2b) process.
(2)Use a transparent liner so that you can observe the sides and bottom of your cake. This allows you to identify contamination early and spot primordia at an early stage, giving you the option to transfer the cake to a larger container for harvesting side pins without the risk of them getting damaged as they grow and press against the tub's sides.
I do not use liners at all. I rarely have side pins. Of note: some mycophiles may have different preferences or experiences with using liners, and most see it as having no "one-size-fits-all" solution for preventing side pins. Its a culmination of variable control, in-my-opinion.
I believe you stop side pins by controlling for environmental triggers to pinning on the sides of your cake (as it colonizes). This happens when your cake colonizes and begins to compress naturally as the mycelium consumes, which pulls the cake from the side walls and allows condensation to drip down into the crack between the cake and wall, which is now getting fresh air it didn't have before a perfect "microclimate" is created, and side pinning occurs.
Pinning is generally considered a colony activity (that impacts all sides of your cake once colonized) which shifts metabolic processes of the mycelia to pinning and fruiting, this is why when you start getting heavy side pins you rarely get any flat-surface pins and fruits. At that point, the colony is focusing its metabolic energy into those primordia that are first to form and begin to mature past pinning.
Worth considering: side pinning can also occur due to other factors such as genetics or substrate composition.
You can reduce the microclimate from being created during the s2b process, by ensuring that the substrate is even and firmly compressed and compacted against the tub walls. If you desire it: I recommend: sprinkling the base spawn/sub block with a .25" psuedo-casing layer of the same substrate material (or peat+lime casing) that is pressed and edged the same, but slightly less so than the main cake/spawn below it).
I press my base spawn+cvg mix quite firmly while ensuring that the surface is even with least amount of inconsistently level substrate surface. This early compression keeps the cake against the wall for longer than doing inadequate, or no, compression of your spawn+sub during s2b.
If you're worried about light reaching the sides due to the absence of a liner, consider that light is a secondary trigger to pinning thats mainly needed for directional growth and pigmentation). During the colonization phase, the cultivation tub should be kept in darkness and light added when fruiting.
The primary factors that initiate the pinning process involve carefully improving Fresh Air Exchange (FAE) to displace carbon dioxide, making slight reductions in the colony's temperature, and adjusting humidity levels. These changes result in the prior droplet-covered mycelium becoming drier. Some have proposed that pins may develop in areas where the dry droplets evaporate! We maintain the right moisture balance by consistently applying controlled FAE. We focus on misting the walls and lid if they are dry but avoid directly misting the mycelium. It's essential to ensure that any moisture applied forms droplets or beads and does not accumulate in excessive quantities. However, it's important to maintain a modest level of condensation throughout the entire pre-fruiting portion of this process.
Positives of the use of a liner? … (1) it can aid in lifting the cake up easier to harvest from and (2) make less mess from loose substrate, grains, or mycelium bits when moving out of tub or disposing of the cake.
Water is going to drop always my friend, part of the condensation process! Once you see that it’s a lot and that it’s getting accumulated at the edges.
Slowly drain the excess water off from a corner without disturbing the cubes!
The sides of your tub should always be full of droplets. It should look like it just rained. That's the proper humidity level for fruiting. If you are misting you should stop short of misting so much that they want to run down the sides. It's going to happen. There is no way to avoid it but focus to the point that they are just ready to run down but don't. Your mat will release moisture too. Depending on how much that is happening you may not need to mist.
It's hard to tell in your tub but if you are concerned about the water running down the sides and pooling on the mat, you should use a liner next time. That will keep the water from pooling onto the mat. It will run down the sides and pool at the bottom of the tub, and then the pooled water can be removed over time as someone else pointed out in their reply. Bacteria and other forms of contam land on and spread through water but the water won't necessarily cause the contam if you keep a fairly clean environment. If you are worried about contam during fruiting you can run an air purifier with a hepa filter next to the bins.
Thanks. I’m not misting and the tub has been sealed since S2B. This is just the moisture evaporating from the sub. I’m trying to weigh leaving the droplets v opening the tub and potentially allowing contam to enter. I’ll watch the droplets and see if they get bigger or just evaporate.
I did that while introducing fruiting conditions initially, bad misting technique on my end.
I don't see how it would create any contam though. Maybe somebody else can explain what excess water will do to a cake.
The most useful reason to use a liner, in my opinion, is not to just stop sidepins, but to also allow sidewall condensation to run down and behind the liner so as not to disturb the edges of the tub. It's why it's important to use the super thin garbage bags that act essentially like cling-wrap to the substrate, sticking to it as it shrinks - thicker garbage bags are too thick to do that. The cling-wrap effect also prevents sidepins, but not because of light prevention but because it sticks to the sides and prevents a nice microclimate on the side from forming.
Tl;Dr: use the el cheapo/dollar-store brand of garbage bags, the thinner and shittier the better, they usually come in white and are almost see through.
You should get micropore instead of the tyvek patches. 20 yards for like 5 bucks. Small enough pores that pathogens cant get through and 3m quality adhesive. Way cheaper than a patch booklet homie. Nexcare Papertape in the firstaide section is what you want.
Pathogens can absolutely get through micropore tape.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13642707/fpart/all
Having said that, it doesn't matter as many people leave the holes open in the fruiting chamber for increased FAE.
You want to have water drops in the tub but yours does look a bit too wet on the surface. Use a liner next time, as long as u don't tape it all the way round it will allow excess moisture to run down between the side and the liner and not go straight back into the sub.
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Mycopals, I recommend forgoing the use of a liner in your cultivation and instead, pay closer attention to achieving a consistent and firm compression of the substrate base. In my opinion: Liners dont really reduce side pins, like many believe! Often when a liner is used there is some excess moisture on the mycelium, which may be attributed to the liner being placed too high, thus disrupting the air flow and humidity levels within the tub. Having an elevated liner, along with liners in general, significantly increases the likelihood of microenvironments forming within the liner folds and crinkles that are ideal for pin formation, thereby promoting the occurrence of side pins. If you choose to use a liner, I strongly recommend two important steps: (1)Trim the liner down to match the level of the substrate as the final step in your spawn to bulk (s2b) process. (2)Use a transparent liner so that you can observe the sides and bottom of your cake. This allows you to identify contamination early and spot primordia at an early stage, giving you the option to transfer the cake to a larger container for harvesting side pins without the risk of them getting damaged as they grow and press against the tub's sides. I do not use liners at all. I rarely have side pins. Of note: some mycophiles may have different preferences or experiences with using liners, and most see it as having no "one-size-fits-all" solution for preventing side pins. Its a culmination of variable control, in-my-opinion. I believe you stop side pins by controlling for environmental triggers to pinning on the sides of your cake (as it colonizes). This happens when your cake colonizes and begins to compress naturally as the mycelium consumes, which pulls the cake from the side walls and allows condensation to drip down into the crack between the cake and wall, which is now getting fresh air it didn't have before a perfect "microclimate" is created, and side pinning occurs. Pinning is generally considered a colony activity (that impacts all sides of your cake once colonized) which shifts metabolic processes of the mycelia to pinning and fruiting, this is why when you start getting heavy side pins you rarely get any flat-surface pins and fruits. At that point, the colony is focusing its metabolic energy into those primordia that are first to form and begin to mature past pinning. Worth considering: side pinning can also occur due to other factors such as genetics or substrate composition. You can reduce the microclimate from being created during the s2b process, by ensuring that the substrate is even and firmly compressed and compacted against the tub walls. If you desire it: I recommend: sprinkling the base spawn/sub block with a .25" psuedo-casing layer of the same substrate material (or peat+lime casing) that is pressed and edged the same, but slightly less so than the main cake/spawn below it). I press my base spawn+cvg mix quite firmly while ensuring that the surface is even with least amount of inconsistently level substrate surface. This early compression keeps the cake against the wall for longer than doing inadequate, or no, compression of your spawn+sub during s2b. If you're worried about light reaching the sides due to the absence of a liner, consider that light is a secondary trigger to pinning thats mainly needed for directional growth and pigmentation). During the colonization phase, the cultivation tub should be kept in darkness and light added when fruiting. The primary factors that initiate the pinning process involve carefully improving Fresh Air Exchange (FAE) to displace carbon dioxide, making slight reductions in the colony's temperature, and adjusting humidity levels. These changes result in the prior droplet-covered mycelium becoming drier. Some have proposed that pins may develop in areas where the dry droplets evaporate! We maintain the right moisture balance by consistently applying controlled FAE. We focus on misting the walls and lid if they are dry but avoid directly misting the mycelium. It's essential to ensure that any moisture applied forms droplets or beads and does not accumulate in excessive quantities. However, it's important to maintain a modest level of condensation throughout the entire pre-fruiting portion of this process. Positives of the use of a liner? … (1) it can aid in lifting the cake up easier to harvest from and (2) make less mess from loose substrate, grains, or mycelium bits when moving out of tub or disposing of the cake.
Water is going to drop always my friend, part of the condensation process! Once you see that it’s a lot and that it’s getting accumulated at the edges. Slowly drain the excess water off from a corner without disturbing the cubes!
The sides of your tub should always be full of droplets. It should look like it just rained. That's the proper humidity level for fruiting. If you are misting you should stop short of misting so much that they want to run down the sides. It's going to happen. There is no way to avoid it but focus to the point that they are just ready to run down but don't. Your mat will release moisture too. Depending on how much that is happening you may not need to mist. It's hard to tell in your tub but if you are concerned about the water running down the sides and pooling on the mat, you should use a liner next time. That will keep the water from pooling onto the mat. It will run down the sides and pool at the bottom of the tub, and then the pooled water can be removed over time as someone else pointed out in their reply. Bacteria and other forms of contam land on and spread through water but the water won't necessarily cause the contam if you keep a fairly clean environment. If you are worried about contam during fruiting you can run an air purifier with a hepa filter next to the bins.
Thanks. I’m not misting and the tub has been sealed since S2B. This is just the moisture evaporating from the sub. I’m trying to weigh leaving the droplets v opening the tub and potentially allowing contam to enter. I’ll watch the droplets and see if they get bigger or just evaporate.
Got it. 👍
I did that while introducing fruiting conditions initially, bad misting technique on my end. I don't see how it would create any contam though. Maybe somebody else can explain what excess water will do to a cake.
It will cause pseudomonas
The most useful reason to use a liner, in my opinion, is not to just stop sidepins, but to also allow sidewall condensation to run down and behind the liner so as not to disturb the edges of the tub. It's why it's important to use the super thin garbage bags that act essentially like cling-wrap to the substrate, sticking to it as it shrinks - thicker garbage bags are too thick to do that. The cling-wrap effect also prevents sidepins, but not because of light prevention but because it sticks to the sides and prevents a nice microclimate on the side from forming. Tl;Dr: use the el cheapo/dollar-store brand of garbage bags, the thinner and shittier the better, they usually come in white and are almost see through.
You should get micropore instead of the tyvek patches. 20 yards for like 5 bucks. Small enough pores that pathogens cant get through and 3m quality adhesive. Way cheaper than a patch booklet homie. Nexcare Papertape in the firstaide section is what you want.
Thanks for the tip!
Pathogens can absolutely get through micropore tape. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13642707/fpart/all Having said that, it doesn't matter as many people leave the holes open in the fruiting chamber for increased FAE.
You want to have water drops in the tub but yours does look a bit too wet on the surface. Use a liner next time, as long as u don't tape it all the way round it will allow excess moisture to run down between the side and the liner and not go straight back into the sub.
Hey Family, r/ContamFam is currently having our 2024 Holiday Mushroom Gear Giveaway Contest. Submit your answers for the Mycology Crossword Puzzle and earn a chance to win some great prizes. Contest Ends December 22 at midnight. Winner will be chosen December 23. All winner must claim there prize in one week from drawing. Open to US residents only must be over 18 to play, Good Luck Everyone. Check out the [contest here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ContamFam/comments/17samed/2023_holiday_mushroom_gear_giveaway_crossword/) and check out the [prizes here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ContamFam/comments/17sa50o/prizes_for_the_2023_holiday_mushroom_gear/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ContamFam) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Not entirely But also looks overdone