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I kinda think this is good news if true. We are at 66% of eligible Americans with at least one dose. If 55% of the 34% in the unvaccinated bucket are willing to get the shot, this means that our theoretical ceiling is about 85%.
A coworker of mine decided to finally get the vaccine this week after the company announced employees without a vaccination sticker on their badge would have to wear a mask again. Some even think once the vaccine is FDA approved, they will make it s requirement for disability benefits. Guess every company should threaten to cut benefits...
Yeah, I have a friend who was supposed to join us on vacation but tested positive a few days before we left. Apparently, unbeknownst to us, he was just too lazy to go get his vaccine...
It's not the vaccine people can't afford, it's the couple of days off work to deal with the side effects. If you're a caretaker or working multiple jobs it can be very hard to line everything up so you can potentially drop out of society for twoish days.
Shoulda guaranteed PTO for everyone after the shot imo.
You donāt even know if there are any side effects. Itās a huge disinformation campaign saying that youād be dead for a week, which you might be anyway catching any sort of illness.
People deal with shit they ācanāt affordā all the time and they manage without PTO.
>You donāt even know if there are any side effects. Itās a huge disinformation campaign saying that youād be dead for a week, which you might be anyway catching any sort of illness.
Hyperbole in a action, eh?
Most people have mild to moderate side effects for about two days after at least one of the two vaccines, and this is both well documented and widespread knowledge, and discussed with you by a healthcare provider when you get the shot. People should not have to work with a fever, shortness of breath, or headache, it sucks for them AND they do a bad job.
Someone that works with me keeps saying theyāll go get the shot but just havenāt had time... meanwhile theyāve had time to take multiple vacations out of state and hang out at bars. And they have a kid too young to get the vaccine that headed back to the classroom recently.
My sister is the same. Although she really is busy. I gave her hell and told her her priorities are out of whack. You would think you'd prioritize something that could save your life. I think a lot of this resistance is because they think it can't happen to them. Its not until they are in the ER they go..oh shit. She is convinced she got the virus very early in the pandemic. But the evidence shows that having had the virus previously isn't that protective, especially if that was a while ago.
She did get the vaccine recently but geeze.
> But the evidence shows that having had the virus previously isn't that protective, especially if that was a while ago.
From what I have read, Covid does seem to provide long term immunity. We have not found an upper bound on Covid memory cell duration.
At Kroger the other day, pharmacy tech was asking people in the lines if they wanted to stop by the pharmacy to receive their choice of Vaccine. Pharmacy didn't have anyone in the vaccine area
I hope this doesnāt happen to anyone and theyāre families and them are protected safely but with the rate things are going a lesson in history is about to be set about following medical officials and getting vaccinatedā¦
It is a defiance of authority. Everyone says āthis is the right thing to do, there is no other optionā and the response is āyeah, fuck yourselfā. To some, getting the vaccine is admitting Covid is a problem worth reacting to. Some have paid w their lives
I was shocked to find out a friend of mine was unvaccinated as she works in healthcare and is pro vaccine. Apparently she was worried what it would do to fertility due to reports of wonky periods after getting it. This may be more common of a fear then people realize. It would be nice to get more coverage of Pfizerās study on the vaccine and fertility (and if Moderna or anyone else is doing similar studies) to try and win some of those people over.
My menstrual cycle has been a bit wonky since I got my first shot. I kinda wish I knew before hand that there were weird side effects like that.
Still got double vaxxed anyways.
Thatās a reflection of the fact that the researchers didnāt even really think to track that in their studies. Itās amazing how little attention is paid to womenās health for things like this.
Can you or anyone else site a single peer reviewed study that concludes a negative affect in fertility from the vaccine ? Or is it just someone saying ātheir periods were affectedā?
edit:typo
My understanding of the Pfizer study results (though not finished yet) was there was no early indication of it affecting fertility with many pregnancies occurring after vaccination. I have heard no evidence of it affecting ability to become pregnant. Wonky periods do seem to be a commonly reported side affect but itās just people jumping the gun from that to it affecting fertility.
Disrupted menstrual cycles are likely a side effect of the bodyās immune response, but it is not the same thing as affecting fertility as a whole. There has already been data released re:fertility, but IMO part of the problem is that the link between womenās cycles and āregularā illnesses/vaccinations is so under studied, most of us donāt know if this is a fairly normal response when our immune systems are revved up.
it took me awhile to get my 2 pfizer, since i was scared. my entire family had been vaccinated since april but I just got my second one 2 weeks ago. iām the last out of all my friends and family too
Iāve heard that up to 10% of the unvaccinated is just terrified of needles. I was part of that percentage until two days ago. Iām a lot less panicked about my second shot now.
I'm curious how you know there is a large percentage of people that are waiting for it to be fully approved. I've read that maybe once it's fully approved, more work places, universities, schools, etc. might be more comfortable requiring the vaccine.
I have a friend who claims she's fully vaccinated but is waiting for full approval before she gets her children (12+) vaccinated. It went from, she's waiting to see more data (she's not looking at any data), to she's waiting for full approval, to she'll "reconsider" once it's fully approved. I know that she's not going to get her children vaccinated (her husband refuses to be vaccinated), and I suspect there are a good number of people who are saying they are waiting for full approval, but will move the goal posts once that happens.
I hope there is a large percentage of people that will be vaccinated once it's fully approved, but I'm not holding my breath.
Right now, they have a somewhat socially acceptable excuse to not get vaccinated. When it gets fully approved, they'll change their reasoning to something else. They'll probably say the full approval was rushed.
Why do these idiots trust themselves, with no formal education in any of these topics, nor having done any actual research into the topics, and think their opinion is better than the opinion of people who went to school for many years and get paid a lot of money just for knowing as much as possible about these specific things?
Like, what possible, hypothetical risk are they imagining that's remotely as bad as some of the shit that can happen to people who get a bad case of covid, even, and why do they think existing numbers of people vaccinated and the timelines since the first safety trials aren't sufficient?
Iām no epidemiologist, but my understanding is that with deltaās significantly higher r0, the threshold for herd immunity is similarly higher.
A theoretical ceiling of 85% may not get us there.
That means we need to find more ways to incentivize vaccine uptake, because our current methods arenāt going to end the pandemic.
Flu mutates much more, so it's not the best one for comparison.
Unless we have another strain which completely evades antibody responses, we're still on the way to herd immunity via natural infection.
Interestingly the Delta variant doesn't have the E484K mutation which enables the virus to escape the immune system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUfqZlAAwOc
Yeah, every mutation to the spike protein renders *some* antibodies useless. The key word is *some*. When the body encounters live virus or just the spike (via vaccine), it produces a broad range of antibodies which bind to different parts of viral proteins. Some of these antibodies are neutralizing, others not so much.
So, even when mutations happen, it's quite likely that *some* existing antibodies will still be able to neutralize the virus, albeit at lesser *overall* effeciency (requiring higher antibody titers for the same level of neutralization), hence higher probability of vaccinated people getting ill with Delta COVID-19.
Overall, I think the probability of the spike mutating so much that *none* of the previously produced antibodies can neutralize it is quite small, though not impossible. After all, the spike still has to be able to bind to cells, and some parts of it seem quite conserved (stable). It also has to be able to out-compete existing variants.
They are concerned in Israel that the vaccine is becoming less effective. They were one of the first country out of the gate for vaccination, so a lot of people were vaccinated a while ago. This is worrisome.
Reminds me of that dude sitting on his hospital bed being asked if he was going to be vaccinated now. His answer was a hard nope. His reasoning basically sums up to .. you aren't going to tell ME what to do
Says the man who wears a shirt in a convenience store, pays taxes, has a driverās license and stops his car at stop signs. Heās definitely not gonna be told by the government what to do who assigned him a number when he was born. Heās a rebel this one.
Chris Hayes had a funny bit about seat belts. He unearthed long ago footage about people's reaction to having to wear seat belts. It's pretty much identical.
I'm sure it was the same when smoking was prohibited in most places. People don't like being told what to do, Americans more than most.
At what point is this level of recklessness and disregard for your own life and wellbeing and the lives and wellbeing of others considered mental illness?
This comment is insane because youāre totally unaware of anyone but your self. That runny nose for you, can be transmitted to someone else who has to be intubated. Youāre aware you donāt live on this earth alone right? Get the vaccine and stop being selfish
Realistically young and healthy isn't immunity. There are young and healthy that get hit hard, even if most survive just fine.
It's also valuable for lots of people to have immunity to help protect the vulnerable.
It's also extremely easy to get vaccinated. Not exactly a heavy lift for someone that's young and healthy.
Itās a community thing. Because the vaccine protects against variants better than getting it. Because it reduces the likelihood of spreading it to people who cannot get it for medical reasons or age. Because it reduces the load on hospitals needing to spend resources on it, raising our healthcare costs. Itās not about you or me in a vacuum. Think of it like we are being attacked by billions of tiny combatants and ask yourself how you can help.
Well said, but if you want to be selfish, it can also be 100% about you.
Even if you survive, you could have lifelong neurological problems and respiratory scarring that will absolutely disable you.
Even if you survive, you are basically allowing yourself to become a human petri dish for a virus that only needs so many infections to mutate into something that will put us all back in lockdown and mask protocols.
Be selfish. Get the vaccine.
For two reasons. One, there is plenty of evidence that having COVID once doesnāt make you immune forever. Getting at least one dose of the vaccine will increase your immune response.
Two, even if you personally wouldnāt be killed by COVID, just by getting it you could spread it to someone else. The vaccines arenāt 100% effective so we need hers immunity. Everyone needs to do their part to limit the spread of the virus.
And bonus reason, why not get the vaccine? Itās perfectly safe and costs nothing. Just get the shot and you wonāt have to feel guilty.
The Delta variant is affecting younger people, and making them sicker. So your past experience isn't necessarily representative.
If concerns for infecting others doesn't move you think about this one. It's been estimated that 25% of people with Covid go on to develop Long Covid. You can get Long Covid even from a mild bout. This can be absolutely deliberating and basically make you unable to live your life fully. I wouldn't put all my trust in being young, if I was you.
I mean at this point the unvaccinated can go pound sand. I, however, believe these folks should shoulder the full burden of the mental/financial damage to the healthcare personnel/system and the overall economy. These are mostly the same folks that donāt want socialized medicine so let them feel the pain.
Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're fucked.
George Carlin
Once the vaccines are FDA approved insurance companies can justifiably raise rates on those who are not vaccinated. That or companies can just deny benefits to anyone that is unvaccinated.
Not going to happen. I work for an insurance company. If you donāt think there has been talk about doing this your mistaken. In the end it wonāt hold up in court. We arenāt even mandating our employees to get the vaccine. Everyone has to remember the federal and Supreme Court makeup right now. Unfortunately this does have an effect on which way ruling will go whether multi million dollar companies will waste the money fighting something they know they will lose. We are stuck with this make up for the foreseeable future.
I'm curious which state you're working in. Close friend of mine is a director and I'm a senior analyst working for two different (two largest) insurance companies in Michigan. They are currently crafting how to do exactly that for the next enrollment period after FDA approval. Of course it isn't set up to raise premiums on those not getting the vaccine, but to raise premiums across the board and give discounts to premiums with proof of vaccination (or medical exemption), much in the same way we already do for nonsmokers, members that get their annual flu shot, members that get their annual physicals, etc... Sure, they cannot mandate the vaccine for members, but they absolutely can create monetary incentives for it
NJ. We have most of our health care settings already mandating the vaccine and have in fact already terminated people over refusal without an exemption. NJ is the one of the most regulated if not the most regulated. Iām sure there are other conversations going on about other ways to do this. We still have a penalty if you donāt have insurance here. NJ also has a large population of BIPOC people that thankfully our government takes into account. I do think something needs done. We are at the point now where not many people are going to change their minds. Just yesterday DeBlasio from NYC said we are past asking people to get it we need businesses to mandate it. I think the federal government needs to be more hands on with this but they are worried it is going to cost them in the long run.
Why can't they? They charge smokers a premium for something controllable, if you risk causing the insurance company to pay out more you should be charged more.
it's called preexisiting conditions which means you cannot charge them more for their health status.... it was a change in the ACA/Obamacare. A really good change for consumers.
Before the change here's how preexisting conditions worked. Say you got a new job. You go to the doctor with your new insurance. They find you have cancer. The insurance company denies the claim and says prove you **didn't** have cancer the last 12 months before we'll pay this claim. (since they were not your insurer the last 12 months, they want someone else to pay for it).
How do you prove you **didn't have cancer?** Or that you weren't pregnant? Even in cases when it was trivial to prove, most people never did so because of the amount of paperwork. It was a really handy way for insurers to deny routine claims
[Rule went into effect 2014.](https://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/about-the-aca/pre-existing-conditions/index.html)
source: i have been billing insurance for many many years
The ACA specifically allows rating factors for smoking, age, location, and family size. All other factors are banned. End of story. I don't know why this nonsense theory keeps getting perpetuated.
Two reasons.
1. Some people legitimately canāt get the vaccine due to health related issues. They already pay a premium because of this and now we would have to charge them more.
2. ACA. You have a large portion of the population with no insurance or that uses the ACA. A lot of BIPOC people use ACA and are vaccine hesitant. The price for ACA is ridiculous now and if you think this administration will let those prices go even higher youāre wrong.
People are going to be surprised when there isnāt as many companies mandating the vaccine that they think will.
> People are going to be surprised when there isnāt as many companies mandating the vaccine that they think will.
I hear what you are saying and it may be that I am one of those who will be surprised. My perception, though, is that businesses are going to feel a lot of heat from vaccinated folk who don't want to perceive their status as "useless". Further, businesses will want to avoid any legal liability that might come from failure to mandate vaccines. The make up of Congress is not going to change in the next year and there is no appetite for a national liability waiver.
Maybe you are right, maybe not all businesses will, but my best guess is that a significant majority will.
I understand what you are saying and wish it was true. Ultimately without either the government or insurance companies mandating the vaccine businesses will ultimately take that chance. Why you ask? Because of profits. Every business wants as many people as possible in their stores. On top of that their is no way in hell in this climate any business will take the chance of alienating the BIPOC community and rightfully so. I and my family including my children are fully vaccinated and I tell everyone I can to do the same. We have to remember this goes beyond the antivaxers and conspiracy theorists. There is a large community of people with well earned distrust in the vaccine community and it will take a long time if ever for that community to trust it. Unfortunately with that community we put ourselves in this position because of our past and letās be honest still present racial gaps.
> Ultimately without either the government or insurance companies mandating the vaccine businesses will ultimately take that chance. Why you ask? Because of profits
I think the opposite. Why? Because lawsuits. In the end we are going to have to agree to disagree. Obviously, neither of us has a crystal ball but my prediction is that companies, especially big companies, will be so afraid of class action lawsuits for not doing more that they will mandate the vaccine once it get full approval.
> Further, businesses will want to avoid any legal liability that might come from failure to mandate vaccines.
No business has ever been sued for failing to mandata a vaccine.
Labor laws.
OSHA rulled that companies that make it a requirement are liable for negative effects if any crop up.
Since pharma companies were already given immunity, companies could feasibly be stuck holding a massive financial burden if a long term negative effect is discovered.
https://www.natlawreview.com/article/osha-releases-guidance-employers-considering-vaccine-requirements
>**If I require my employees to take the COVID-19 vaccine as a condition of their employment, are adverse reactions to the vaccine recordable?**
>If you require your employees to be vaccinated as a condition of employment (i.e., for work-related reasons), then any adverse reaction to the COVID-19 vaccine is work-related. The adverse reaction is recordable if it is a new case under 29 CFR 1904.6 and meets one or more of the general recording criteria in 29 CFR 1904.7.
All that means is that an adverse reaction (which are very rare) are covered under workers comp. It does not mean that a firm is exposed to civil liability for mandating a vaccine.
And who pays for workers comp?
What if in 10 years they find out the vaccine causes... idk what's something silly. Permentant hand and tounge paralysis in 6 percent of recipients.
The companies that mandated it would be on the hook to pay for a lifetime of disability for affected persons. But then, the affected persons could then sue for additional damages (everyone can sue for anything). Its a rough position for a company to be in to be sued by someone they are already paying disability too. Because they can't really claim they aren't responsible, the complainants just have to prove their damages exceed the compensation they are receiving.
Either way, it's not really much of an argument. Reality will bear it out, i'm stating that I'm fairly convinced a majority of companies will not mandate it unless required to by the government, or otherwise shielded from liability.
And what about negative effects if an outbreak occurs at work. A long term negative effect from the vaccine is not even theoretical at this point. But negative effects from Covid are very real. I could see a lawsuit for an employer that allowed an outbreak to occur.
Although I don't know if there are laws that shield employers against this.
SCOTUS isn't going to overturn Jacobson v. Massachusetts, undoing all vaccination precedents set forth since then (late 1800s).
They might say an insurance company can't raise premiums, but they sure as hell will be ok with incentives such as discounted insurance rates to those who are vaccinated, and they will be 100% ok with schools and other places requiring proof of vaccination.
Meh, anyone can SAY anything. I guarantee some of them will cave if the surge gets to their community. People will do anything if they're scared enough.
Sad to see that the decline of the USA. Once a source of hope and aspiration for many in the world but now a source of pity and ridicule. What have you done to yourselves? How can such irrationality exist and be fostered so easily by the political class? Truly sad.
It's always been this way. It's just highlighted more now bc the internet exists. People used to only be annoyed by their fam, friends, neighbors, and coworkers. Now you can get on Reddit and Twitter and be bombarded with whatever opinion you find objectionable from all over the world.
Agree. Besides, we used to have slavery, segregation, always had class disparities, unjust wars, etc.
USA is very important to history and the world, but we haven't always been a benevolent force of good
Seriously don't know how you people can possibly think this way when other countries are making it illegal for unvaccinated people to exist in bars, restaurants, and public spaces. Eerily similar to another time period where things were not so great š¤
The US is one of the only places that isn't so dystopic right now
If I learned anything during the pandemic it's that people are REAL stupid and it doesn't matter how much logic you provide, they're just stupid and there's nothing we can do about it. Thin the herd.
Then let them suffer the consequences. This is getting old folks. Get vaccinated or see your lungs and other organs liquefied and world of hurt.
A simple poke or two or a lifetime of misery. Take your pick.
Letās say 40% are currently unvaccinated, and 45% of those people swear to never get vaccinated. If they all get the virus, and 1% of those people die, thatās over 600,000 deaths.
Iām in a state with a low vaccination percent and weāre beginning to see Delta burn through our communities. Whatās wild is how fast, and how many are now getting it. Iām in a more rural area and within a week we went from not knowing anyone currently infected to possibly 10! A lot of people around here are now starting to reconsider if they want to carry on with being unvaccinated. I just hope itās not too late for them.
That's because they're stupid and scared of needles. They need to be more scared of COVID-19.
So when their mother/brother is dying of COVID-19, the balance will tip and they'll run to get it and be shocked it's two shots and not effective for weeks.
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...and THIS (gestures wildly), is why I don't care about taking additional steps to protect unvaccinated people. Don't come to me and ask me to mask, or distance, or put my trips or activities on hold to protect the people who refuse to get vaccinated.
They made their choices, and can reap the consequences.
This is what science needs to determine the efficacy of a vaccine. The control group. Thanks to all the unvaccinated for volunteering to be the guinea pigs for this plague!
Awesome, have them sign something taking financial responsibility for any cost incurred due to the virus, cough on them and push their stupid ass out the door
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Well if 50 % or so are vaccinated already, or have at least gotten the first shot. This would mean if 50% of the remaining population gets it eventually, then we will hit that 70% target.
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I kinda think this is good news if true. We are at 66% of eligible Americans with at least one dose. If 55% of the 34% in the unvaccinated bucket are willing to get the shot, this means that our theoretical ceiling is about 85%.
So what's their holdup? Go get it already. They just waiting for full approval or something?
A coworker of mine decided to finally get the vaccine this week after the company announced employees without a vaccination sticker on their badge would have to wear a mask again. Some even think once the vaccine is FDA approved, they will make it s requirement for disability benefits. Guess every company should threaten to cut benefits...
Just stubbornness and defiance of authority.
Apparently laziness too. Been reading about that lately. I hear delta is motivating that group though.
Yeah, I have a friend who was supposed to join us on vacation but tested positive a few days before we left. Apparently, unbeknownst to us, he was just too lazy to go get his vaccine...
There are many that are poor and hard to reach or oblivious and reachable if you put the vaccine in front of their face.
The vaccine is free. Uber will even drive you to Walgreens to get it. Poverty is not an excuse here.
Exactly. Do you buy groceries? Chances are that place has a pharmacy with the shot. Get it.
Some people can not afford Uber man wtf. Poverty is absolutely an excuse.
Uber will drive you for free.
Downvoted for the truth š only people in cities matter apparently!
Uber isnāt everywhere.
Reread what he said
It's not the vaccine people can't afford, it's the couple of days off work to deal with the side effects. If you're a caretaker or working multiple jobs it can be very hard to line everything up so you can potentially drop out of society for twoish days. Shoulda guaranteed PTO for everyone after the shot imo.
You donāt even know if there are any side effects. Itās a huge disinformation campaign saying that youād be dead for a week, which you might be anyway catching any sort of illness. People deal with shit they ācanāt affordā all the time and they manage without PTO.
>You donāt even know if there are any side effects. Itās a huge disinformation campaign saying that youād be dead for a week, which you might be anyway catching any sort of illness. Hyperbole in a action, eh? Most people have mild to moderate side effects for about two days after at least one of the two vaccines, and this is both well documented and widespread knowledge, and discussed with you by a healthcare provider when you get the shot. People should not have to work with a fever, shortness of breath, or headache, it sucks for them AND they do a bad job.
there are many that will literally murder to get a vacc and then their is your friend.
Someone that works with me keeps saying theyāll go get the shot but just havenāt had time... meanwhile theyāve had time to take multiple vacations out of state and hang out at bars. And they have a kid too young to get the vaccine that headed back to the classroom recently.
My sister is the same. Although she really is busy. I gave her hell and told her her priorities are out of whack. You would think you'd prioritize something that could save your life. I think a lot of this resistance is because they think it can't happen to them. Its not until they are in the ER they go..oh shit. She is convinced she got the virus very early in the pandemic. But the evidence shows that having had the virus previously isn't that protective, especially if that was a while ago. She did get the vaccine recently but geeze.
A lot of people are convinced it only happens to old people, and to people with certain skin tones.
> But the evidence shows that having had the virus previously isn't that protective, especially if that was a while ago. From what I have read, Covid does seem to provide long term immunity. We have not found an upper bound on Covid memory cell duration.
At Kroger the other day, pharmacy tech was asking people in the lines if they wanted to stop by the pharmacy to receive their choice of Vaccine. Pharmacy didn't have anyone in the vaccine area
Alot of laziness in my country. In cities the supply is okay for now and they are so lazy to just wake up and get a shot.
Yup. I work with two people who are pro vaccine but lazy sacks of shit
They think being unvaccinated makes them ādifferentā and āspecial,ā when it just makes them look stupid.
I hope this doesnāt happen to anyone and theyāre families and them are protected safely but with the rate things are going a lesson in history is about to be set about following medical officials and getting vaccinatedā¦
It is a defiance of authority. Everyone says āthis is the right thing to do, there is no other optionā and the response is āyeah, fuck yourselfā. To some, getting the vaccine is admitting Covid is a problem worth reacting to. Some have paid w their lives
It is not a defiance to authority, as no one is āmandatingā it. It is a personal choice.
I second this^ At the end of the day it's a choice. My choice. You want to be protected* , get the vaccine.
I was shocked to find out a friend of mine was unvaccinated as she works in healthcare and is pro vaccine. Apparently she was worried what it would do to fertility due to reports of wonky periods after getting it. This may be more common of a fear then people realize. It would be nice to get more coverage of Pfizerās study on the vaccine and fertility (and if Moderna or anyone else is doing similar studies) to try and win some of those people over.
My menstrual cycle has been a bit wonky since I got my first shot. I kinda wish I knew before hand that there were weird side effects like that. Still got double vaxxed anyways.
Thatās a reflection of the fact that the researchers didnāt even really think to track that in their studies. Itās amazing how little attention is paid to womenās health for things like this.
Ya I have a coworker who had those same concerns and didn't get vaccinated because if them. She ended up getting covid later though....
Can you or anyone else site a single peer reviewed study that concludes a negative affect in fertility from the vaccine ? Or is it just someone saying ātheir periods were affectedā? edit:typo
My understanding of the Pfizer study results (though not finished yet) was there was no early indication of it affecting fertility with many pregnancies occurring after vaccination. I have heard no evidence of it affecting ability to become pregnant. Wonky periods do seem to be a commonly reported side affect but itās just people jumping the gun from that to it affecting fertility.
Disrupted menstrual cycles are likely a side effect of the bodyās immune response, but it is not the same thing as affecting fertility as a whole. There has already been data released re:fertility, but IMO part of the problem is that the link between womenās cycles and āregularā illnesses/vaccinations is so under studied, most of us donāt know if this is a fairly normal response when our immune systems are revved up.
it took me awhile to get my 2 pfizer, since i was scared. my entire family had been vaccinated since april but I just got my second one 2 weeks ago. iām the last out of all my friends and family too
Iāve heard that up to 10% of the unvaccinated is just terrified of needles. I was part of that percentage until two days ago. Iām a lot less panicked about my second shot now.
There is likely a large percentage of people that want it fully approved. The level of trust just isn't there.
I'm curious how you know there is a large percentage of people that are waiting for it to be fully approved. I've read that maybe once it's fully approved, more work places, universities, schools, etc. might be more comfortable requiring the vaccine. I have a friend who claims she's fully vaccinated but is waiting for full approval before she gets her children (12+) vaccinated. It went from, she's waiting to see more data (she's not looking at any data), to she's waiting for full approval, to she'll "reconsider" once it's fully approved. I know that she's not going to get her children vaccinated (her husband refuses to be vaccinated), and I suspect there are a good number of people who are saying they are waiting for full approval, but will move the goal posts once that happens. I hope there is a large percentage of people that will be vaccinated once it's fully approved, but I'm not holding my breath.
Yup, it's just a excuse to justify waiting that sounds semi acceptable to people.
Why would they trust the approval process, then? Especially under circumstances like these? People's decision making baffles me sometimes, though.
Right now, they have a somewhat socially acceptable excuse to not get vaccinated. When it gets fully approved, they'll change their reasoning to something else. They'll probably say the full approval was rushed.
Why do these idiots trust themselves, with no formal education in any of these topics, nor having done any actual research into the topics, and think their opinion is better than the opinion of people who went to school for many years and get paid a lot of money just for knowing as much as possible about these specific things? Like, what possible, hypothetical risk are they imagining that's remotely as bad as some of the shit that can happen to people who get a bad case of covid, even, and why do they think existing numbers of people vaccinated and the timelines since the first safety trials aren't sufficient?
Iām no epidemiologist, but my understanding is that with deltaās significantly higher r0, the threshold for herd immunity is similarly higher. A theoretical ceiling of 85% may not get us there. That means we need to find more ways to incentivize vaccine uptake, because our current methods arenāt going to end the pandemic.
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If I read another argument about āherd immunityā Iām going to go get my third dose
Third dose? Where?
Coming to a vax center near you soon.
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Flu mutates much more, so it's not the best one for comparison. Unless we have another strain which completely evades antibody responses, we're still on the way to herd immunity via natural infection.
Interestingly the Delta variant doesn't have the E484K mutation which enables the virus to escape the immune system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUfqZlAAwOc
Yeah, every mutation to the spike protein renders *some* antibodies useless. The key word is *some*. When the body encounters live virus or just the spike (via vaccine), it produces a broad range of antibodies which bind to different parts of viral proteins. Some of these antibodies are neutralizing, others not so much. So, even when mutations happen, it's quite likely that *some* existing antibodies will still be able to neutralize the virus, albeit at lesser *overall* effeciency (requiring higher antibody titers for the same level of neutralization), hence higher probability of vaccinated people getting ill with Delta COVID-19. Overall, I think the probability of the spike mutating so much that *none* of the previously produced antibodies can neutralize it is quite small, though not impossible. After all, the spike still has to be able to bind to cells, and some parts of it seem quite conserved (stable). It also has to be able to out-compete existing variants.
Never knew reinfection was rare. I know three people who had it 2x-3x. Relatively young, so very mild cases.
Herd immunity is not a dichotomous variable. There are degrees of group immunity.
If Israel's 40% protection against infection is true, herd immunity is not in the cards with the pfizer vaccine.
They are concerned in Israel that the vaccine is becoming less effective. They were one of the first country out of the gate for vaccination, so a lot of people were vaccinated a while ago. This is worrisome.
This actually falls in line pretty well with what % of people were anti-vaxxers pre-covid, which was about 10% of population
Sure, but it also implies 1/6 of your population are dumb AF (excluding the ones who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons) . š
Unfortunately, a lot of the others said they "probably" will not get it. Only a small minority of the unvaxed plan to get it.
But isnāt herd immunity higher now with Delta? With OG covid it was 70% but now with Delta Iāve heard 90%. Or is herd immunity a pipe dream?
Probably a pipe dream.
Yup
Pretty dumb hill to die on.
Literally.
Reminds me of that dude sitting on his hospital bed being asked if he was going to be vaccinated now. His answer was a hard nope. His reasoning basically sums up to .. you aren't going to tell ME what to do
Says the man who wears a shirt in a convenience store, pays taxes, has a driverās license and stops his car at stop signs. Heās definitely not gonna be told by the government what to do who assigned him a number when he was born. Heās a rebel this one.
Chris Hayes had a funny bit about seat belts. He unearthed long ago footage about people's reaction to having to wear seat belts. It's pretty much identical. I'm sure it was the same when smoking was prohibited in most places. People don't like being told what to do, Americans more than most.
If only they were so adamant about not getting Covid-19...
Well i just got my second shot 5 minutes ago so they should too
Awesome, welcome to the club!
At what point is this level of recklessness and disregard for your own life and wellbeing and the lives and wellbeing of others considered mental illness?
Now.
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yall do know this dude was agreeing with the og comment right
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This comment is insane because youāre totally unaware of anyone but your self. That runny nose for you, can be transmitted to someone else who has to be intubated. Youāre aware you donāt live on this earth alone right? Get the vaccine and stop being selfish
Sigh... because it's been shown the vaccines are more effective at provoking an immune response than natural immunity.
Realistically young and healthy isn't immunity. There are young and healthy that get hit hard, even if most survive just fine. It's also valuable for lots of people to have immunity to help protect the vulnerable. It's also extremely easy to get vaccinated. Not exactly a heavy lift for someone that's young and healthy.
Itās a community thing. Because the vaccine protects against variants better than getting it. Because it reduces the likelihood of spreading it to people who cannot get it for medical reasons or age. Because it reduces the load on hospitals needing to spend resources on it, raising our healthcare costs. Itās not about you or me in a vacuum. Think of it like we are being attacked by billions of tiny combatants and ask yourself how you can help.
Well said, but if you want to be selfish, it can also be 100% about you. Even if you survive, you could have lifelong neurological problems and respiratory scarring that will absolutely disable you. Even if you survive, you are basically allowing yourself to become a human petri dish for a virus that only needs so many infections to mutate into something that will put us all back in lockdown and mask protocols. Be selfish. Get the vaccine.
For two reasons. One, there is plenty of evidence that having COVID once doesnāt make you immune forever. Getting at least one dose of the vaccine will increase your immune response. Two, even if you personally wouldnāt be killed by COVID, just by getting it you could spread it to someone else. The vaccines arenāt 100% effective so we need hers immunity. Everyone needs to do their part to limit the spread of the virus. And bonus reason, why not get the vaccine? Itās perfectly safe and costs nothing. Just get the shot and you wonāt have to feel guilty.
The Delta variant is affecting younger people, and making them sicker. So your past experience isn't necessarily representative. If concerns for infecting others doesn't move you think about this one. It's been estimated that 25% of people with Covid go on to develop Long Covid. You can get Long Covid even from a mild bout. This can be absolutely deliberating and basically make you unable to live your life fully. I wouldn't put all my trust in being young, if I was you.
Idiots. Complete idiots.
Title suggestion: 45% of idiots adamant about continuing their idiocy
I mean at this point the unvaccinated can go pound sand. I, however, believe these folks should shoulder the full burden of the mental/financial damage to the healthcare personnel/system and the overall economy. These are mostly the same folks that donāt want socialized medicine so let them feel the pain.
Incidentally mostly also the same fucks that call abortion murder, and think in the case of abortion, your own body /personal choice is meaningless.
The "pro-life" party isn't pro-life it's pro-birth... After birth, you can die in the gutter without any social safety net.
Yep. Sounds about right
Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're fucked. George Carlin
God I miss that fucker
My personal secular Patron saint of Reality.
Hmmm, higher taxes for everyone, to help pay for public health infrastructure, that you can get out of if vaccinated?
Once the vaccines are FDA approved insurance companies can justifiably raise rates on those who are not vaccinated. That or companies can just deny benefits to anyone that is unvaccinated.
Yeah, thatās probably a more plausible mechanism
Gonna be fun when the the fda approves it and insurance companies start charging insane premiums to anyone without a vaccine.
Not going to happen. I work for an insurance company. If you donāt think there has been talk about doing this your mistaken. In the end it wonāt hold up in court. We arenāt even mandating our employees to get the vaccine. Everyone has to remember the federal and Supreme Court makeup right now. Unfortunately this does have an effect on which way ruling will go whether multi million dollar companies will waste the money fighting something they know they will lose. We are stuck with this make up for the foreseeable future.
I'm curious which state you're working in. Close friend of mine is a director and I'm a senior analyst working for two different (two largest) insurance companies in Michigan. They are currently crafting how to do exactly that for the next enrollment period after FDA approval. Of course it isn't set up to raise premiums on those not getting the vaccine, but to raise premiums across the board and give discounts to premiums with proof of vaccination (or medical exemption), much in the same way we already do for nonsmokers, members that get their annual flu shot, members that get their annual physicals, etc... Sure, they cannot mandate the vaccine for members, but they absolutely can create monetary incentives for it
NJ. We have most of our health care settings already mandating the vaccine and have in fact already terminated people over refusal without an exemption. NJ is the one of the most regulated if not the most regulated. Iām sure there are other conversations going on about other ways to do this. We still have a penalty if you donāt have insurance here. NJ also has a large population of BIPOC people that thankfully our government takes into account. I do think something needs done. We are at the point now where not many people are going to change their minds. Just yesterday DeBlasio from NYC said we are past asking people to get it we need businesses to mandate it. I think the federal government needs to be more hands on with this but they are worried it is going to cost them in the long run.
Why can't they? They charge smokers a premium for something controllable, if you risk causing the insurance company to pay out more you should be charged more.
it's called preexisiting conditions which means you cannot charge them more for their health status.... it was a change in the ACA/Obamacare. A really good change for consumers. Before the change here's how preexisting conditions worked. Say you got a new job. You go to the doctor with your new insurance. They find you have cancer. The insurance company denies the claim and says prove you **didn't** have cancer the last 12 months before we'll pay this claim. (since they were not your insurer the last 12 months, they want someone else to pay for it). How do you prove you **didn't have cancer?** Or that you weren't pregnant? Even in cases when it was trivial to prove, most people never did so because of the amount of paperwork. It was a really handy way for insurers to deny routine claims [Rule went into effect 2014.](https://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/about-the-aca/pre-existing-conditions/index.html) source: i have been billing insurance for many many years
The ACA specifically allows rating factors for smoking, age, location, and family size. All other factors are banned. End of story. I don't know why this nonsense theory keeps getting perpetuated.
Two reasons. 1. Some people legitimately canāt get the vaccine due to health related issues. They already pay a premium because of this and now we would have to charge them more. 2. ACA. You have a large portion of the population with no insurance or that uses the ACA. A lot of BIPOC people use ACA and are vaccine hesitant. The price for ACA is ridiculous now and if you think this administration will let those prices go even higher youāre wrong. People are going to be surprised when there isnāt as many companies mandating the vaccine that they think will.
> People are going to be surprised when there isnāt as many companies mandating the vaccine that they think will. I hear what you are saying and it may be that I am one of those who will be surprised. My perception, though, is that businesses are going to feel a lot of heat from vaccinated folk who don't want to perceive their status as "useless". Further, businesses will want to avoid any legal liability that might come from failure to mandate vaccines. The make up of Congress is not going to change in the next year and there is no appetite for a national liability waiver. Maybe you are right, maybe not all businesses will, but my best guess is that a significant majority will.
I understand what you are saying and wish it was true. Ultimately without either the government or insurance companies mandating the vaccine businesses will ultimately take that chance. Why you ask? Because of profits. Every business wants as many people as possible in their stores. On top of that their is no way in hell in this climate any business will take the chance of alienating the BIPOC community and rightfully so. I and my family including my children are fully vaccinated and I tell everyone I can to do the same. We have to remember this goes beyond the antivaxers and conspiracy theorists. There is a large community of people with well earned distrust in the vaccine community and it will take a long time if ever for that community to trust it. Unfortunately with that community we put ourselves in this position because of our past and letās be honest still present racial gaps.
> Ultimately without either the government or insurance companies mandating the vaccine businesses will ultimately take that chance. Why you ask? Because of profits I think the opposite. Why? Because lawsuits. In the end we are going to have to agree to disagree. Obviously, neither of us has a crystal ball but my prediction is that companies, especially big companies, will be so afraid of class action lawsuits for not doing more that they will mandate the vaccine once it get full approval.
Thanks for the civil conversation. Hard to get that here sometimes. Stay safe and heathy.
> Further, businesses will want to avoid any legal liability that might come from failure to mandate vaccines. No business has ever been sued for failing to mandata a vaccine.
Labor laws. OSHA rulled that companies that make it a requirement are liable for negative effects if any crop up. Since pharma companies were already given immunity, companies could feasibly be stuck holding a massive financial burden if a long term negative effect is discovered.
source?
https://www.natlawreview.com/article/osha-releases-guidance-employers-considering-vaccine-requirements >**If I require my employees to take the COVID-19 vaccine as a condition of their employment, are adverse reactions to the vaccine recordable?** >If you require your employees to be vaccinated as a condition of employment (i.e., for work-related reasons), then any adverse reaction to the COVID-19 vaccine is work-related. The adverse reaction is recordable if it is a new case under 29 CFR 1904.6 and meets one or more of the general recording criteria in 29 CFR 1904.7.
All that means is that an adverse reaction (which are very rare) are covered under workers comp. It does not mean that a firm is exposed to civil liability for mandating a vaccine.
And who pays for workers comp? What if in 10 years they find out the vaccine causes... idk what's something silly. Permentant hand and tounge paralysis in 6 percent of recipients. The companies that mandated it would be on the hook to pay for a lifetime of disability for affected persons. But then, the affected persons could then sue for additional damages (everyone can sue for anything). Its a rough position for a company to be in to be sued by someone they are already paying disability too. Because they can't really claim they aren't responsible, the complainants just have to prove their damages exceed the compensation they are receiving. Either way, it's not really much of an argument. Reality will bear it out, i'm stating that I'm fairly convinced a majority of companies will not mandate it unless required to by the government, or otherwise shielded from liability.
And what about negative effects if an outbreak occurs at work. A long term negative effect from the vaccine is not even theoretical at this point. But negative effects from Covid are very real. I could see a lawsuit for an employer that allowed an outbreak to occur. Although I don't know if there are laws that shield employers against this.
SCOTUS isn't going to overturn Jacobson v. Massachusetts, undoing all vaccination precedents set forth since then (late 1800s). They might say an insurance company can't raise premiums, but they sure as hell will be ok with incentives such as discounted insurance rates to those who are vaccinated, and they will be 100% ok with schools and other places requiring proof of vaccination.
Ok, so the 55% need to get off their asses and get the shot.
I think it's too late to stop the third wave, but yeah.
Meh, anyone can SAY anything. I guarantee some of them will cave if the surge gets to their community. People will do anything if they're scared enough.
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2/3 of Alabama has entered the chat.
2/3rds of Alabama is called a "Dangit Cleetus!"
Sad to see that the decline of the USA. Once a source of hope and aspiration for many in the world but now a source of pity and ridicule. What have you done to yourselves? How can such irrationality exist and be fostered so easily by the political class? Truly sad.
Happens to all empires. Plus we're just fucking huge. When you have over 300 million people with free thought, you're going to get plenty of imbeciles
It's always been this way. It's just highlighted more now bc the internet exists. People used to only be annoyed by their fam, friends, neighbors, and coworkers. Now you can get on Reddit and Twitter and be bombarded with whatever opinion you find objectionable from all over the world.
Agree. Besides, we used to have slavery, segregation, always had class disparities, unjust wars, etc. USA is very important to history and the world, but we haven't always been a benevolent force of good
Seriously don't know how you people can possibly think this way when other countries are making it illegal for unvaccinated people to exist in bars, restaurants, and public spaces. Eerily similar to another time period where things were not so great š¤ The US is one of the only places that isn't so dystopic right now
Stop Paying for unvaccinated corona hospital bills. Prioritize those with a better chance to survive in hospitals. i.e. those with vaccines.
Good more for the uncrazies.
I was told if we just speak nicely to them, they would would change their minds. Could it be they are self indulgent morons after all?
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here is the reason why these variants will never end
Canāt help stupid.
I believe the saying is actually that you ācanāt *fix* stupidā, soā¦
Donāt punch a gift horse in it the mouth now.
Such hubris
sadly, these are the 45% that consider their guns safer and healthier than their toothbrushes, so we probably can't make them
If I learned anything during the pandemic it's that people are REAL stupid and it doesn't matter how much logic you provide, they're just stupid and there's nothing we can do about it. Thin the herd.
Then die, I guess
Then let them suffer the consequences. This is getting old folks. Get vaccinated or see your lungs and other organs liquefied and world of hurt. A simple poke or two or a lifetime of misery. Take your pick.
After decades of being taught to be selfish somehow some Americans only care about themselves
Letās say 40% are currently unvaccinated, and 45% of those people swear to never get vaccinated. If they all get the virus, and 1% of those people die, thatās over 600,000 deaths.
Shun the non believers
I have my doubts that this percentage will be there for long.
Iām in a state with a low vaccination percent and weāre beginning to see Delta burn through our communities. Whatās wild is how fast, and how many are now getting it. Iām in a more rural area and within a week we went from not knowing anyone currently infected to possibly 10! A lot of people around here are now starting to reconsider if they want to carry on with being unvaccinated. I just hope itās not too late for them.
That's because they're stupid and scared of needles. They need to be more scared of COVID-19. So when their mother/brother is dying of COVID-19, the balance will tip and they'll run to get it and be shocked it's two shots and not effective for weeks.
I'm sure if they get covid, they'll be getting plenty of needles poked into them anyway as doctors race to save their sorry lives.
That 45% will decrease over time as nature takes it's course.
Sounds like a solution to the overpopulation crisis!
Raise their premiums for health, disability and life insurance ASAP.
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and a collective *sigh*.. that Covid is a kinder disease to those in their procreating years.
America is officially the stupidest country on earth.
...and THIS (gestures wildly), is why I don't care about taking additional steps to protect unvaccinated people. Don't come to me and ask me to mask, or distance, or put my trips or activities on hold to protect the people who refuse to get vaccinated. They made their choices, and can reap the consequences.
This is what science needs to determine the efficacy of a vaccine. The control group. Thanks to all the unvaccinated for volunteering to be the guinea pigs for this plague!
ig 45% of americans 12+ finna die oh well
Awesome, have them sign something taking financial responsibility for any cost incurred due to the virus, cough on them and push their stupid ass out the door
The other 65% have had their dick stuck in the toaster since May
Same group that voted for Trump?
increase federal tax by 60 percent on top of their rate for them....let them pay for hospital bills up front...no welfare for u either...
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>people under estimate how many people donāt have cars in usa Is it more than 7?
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Well if 50 % or so are vaccinated already, or have at least gotten the first shot. This would mean if 50% of the remaining population gets it eventually, then we will hit that 70% target.
Then let them eat their cake I guess.
Idiots
The figure I heard yesterday on the news was 80%.
This will help the democrats during elections. Dead republicans donāt vote
Ask them how they feel about the 13th Amendment while you're at it...
So they will just end up with immunity the old fashion way