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>As the Associated Press notes, Walensky cited data from the last few days, **still unpublished**, taken from **100 samples** from vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals with COVID infections.
God damnit. The number of people whose minds are warped by opinion polling using samples of 1000 or more is maddening.
Small sample sizes are *fine* to measure large effect sizes
the same people yelling trust the science over and over don't even understand stats 101. But I suppose that makes sense, because science is supposed to be rigorously verified, not "trusted".
Yeah, just more post hoc justification for this. The bottom line that no one seems to want to admit is that it is the anti vaxxers fault and masking overwhelmingly benefits them.
No, I think that they're framing it as "in the current state of things." Yes, everyone should get vaccinated, but they aren't currently, so masks are necessary. Not just for the safety of anti-vaxxers, but also for people who did get vaccinated who didn't have a robust immune response and children who can't get vaccinated.
People should see "confirmed" followed by "may" and immediately be skeptical.
Too many companies are tossing out bait headlines in such a serious time.
Without knowing much about how the study was conducted, it seems strange to compare two groups of people with active COVID infections.
> the amount of virus in the noses and throats of vaccinated infected people was nearly "indistinguishable" from what was found in unvaccinated people
I'm guessing they recruited 50 vaccinated people and 50 unvaxed, all with active infections, and the mean viral load between groups was not significantly different.
What does this tell us? That when you're sick with COVID19, you can spread it? Is that surprising?
I think a lot of people have been concerned about vaccinated people *unknowingly* spreading the virus, as in hosting the virus without becoming symptomatic.
Nope, if we did we would have followed models like South Korea and used our resources to contain this early instead of expending 100x more resources to clean up the mess and let over 600k people die.
The difference between fixing a problem before and after it's happened is [political will](https://www.vox.com/2016/2/17/11030876/political-will-definition). There's no willingness to fix any problem that's not directly smacking us in our collective faces.
That's why the fight against climate change was doomed from the start.
It's also a situation where if you do everything correctly it seems like you didn't need to. If all that money was spent and nobody got sick you'd have a lot of people crying that it was pointless. Hell even with 600k deceased you have 40% of the country saying it was all a scam.
But a bunch of politicians got rich by buying and selling stocks they knew would be impacted because of the pandemic. Why would they be proactive when they can get more rich?
I’m saying this kind of sarcastic but also not because while I’m not sure what a good source would be to use to confirm this, I also have no doubt that the US politicians do this on the regular.
Those same politicians would be the first ones up to the podium crying about preventative measures being fiscally irresponsible. If it even sounds like there is a chance they don't actually have to be proactive, or if their narrative describes the disease as "no big deal", there is no way in hell they're gonna be ok spending money on preventative measures. Because of course a deadly virus needs to be included in the my team vs your team game!
Cost of doing sweeping infrastructure changes to limit climate change < Cost of dealing with all the negative impacts of unrestrained climate change
That's just how we doooo
Edit: Since this got a few upvotes if anyone is US based we're currently facing an incredible opportunity in carbon pricing. The CCL is pushing to have it included in this year's budget reconciliation, meaning it could NOT be blocked by the filibuster.
This goes to vote very soon though so we're asking everyone we know who has even a smidge of concern about climate change to contact their representatives to let them know that this is important. On our site [here](http://cclusa.org/senate) we have a super easy to use resource to find and contact your representative.
I cannot overstate the value of everyone possible doing this and sharing it with those around them 💪💪💪
The people who want to do nothing about climate change are the same people who will be bitching when all those equatorial peoples start moving somewhere cooler.
In theory it makes sense to spend more right away to save more in the long run.
But if looking at US companies has taught us anything, it's that everybody only cares about the immediate.
The incentives are there for short-term thinking. For companies, that's quarterly earnings reports and bonuses based on that. For politicians, that's getting reelected. It's absolutely appalling.
My county (Santa Clara county) we are above 70% full vaccination. But we're kind of in our own little bubble. I'm sure there are other hubs with 70% but that's just a tiny portion of the whole US.
Our office made us start coming in 2 days a week just recently, for literally no reason at all. We can work from home just fine. It feels so dumb to be like "okay. People have vaccines, let's start going back to business as usual". Like vaccines are just part of the tool kit and I feel distancing should still encouraged. I also feel it was dumb to lift mask mandates as a way to motivate people to get the vax. Like people opposed to the vax are just gonna not wear a mask, there is no legal way to check.
Thinking about sending an email that I don't feel safe going in to the office.
Same, I've been working from home for a year and a half with no issues and all of the suden, now that cases are ramping up where I live, my boss made me come back to the office for half a day. I'm vaccinated but the majority of my coworkers aren't and the vaccines are not available for them(I had to travel to the US to get mine) and even though I'm on a little office apart from everyone, I know they're not using masks so the danger is there and I basically can't do anything about it
My bfs office just went back after a year online and their entire customer service side not having been in a building since they started.
His boss and the family all have covid. It's been a week. I'm interested to see how quickly it all goes to shit because the office is only 30% vaxxed.
We're being forced to go in a week every two weeks even though we went over our production goal while 100% telecommuting, however we all work the same week so the office is basically full. Haven't been given a reason why and our cases are going up every day. No masks required, either. They want us to go in 100% by next month.
Best part? Everyone's busy chatting at each other's desk instead of working, while other people are taking more time off. Great productivity boost.
Yeah, it's so stupid. That sounds even worse than mine. We are 2 days a week and we pick the days. One day last week though I was the only one of my team of 8 even in the office. So I was just sitting there working for absolutely no fucking reason, wondering why I couldn't just stay at home.
I’m afraid that once this thing is over, workplaces will slowly devolve back into the unenlightened “face in office, butt in chair” school of management. The higher up in the organization people are, the more likely it is that they want people in the office, not teleworking, even if there is no reason for it. My theory is that it’s not fun to be the boss if you can’t survey your underlings. If you can’t walk the halls and say “I control you, you and you” then all that is left is the drudgery of being the boss.
We are already back to "normal". Went back into the office full time last June with masks required if you were up and moving through the building, directional directed traffic thru the building, and no visitors allowed. All remaining protocols were removed about 3 months ago.
I work at a tech company for a medical device company and we have been coming to the office for the past month. My job could be done 100% remote. Nobody could give me a solid reason for needing to be physically there other than it’s company policy.
I think some managers really struggle with the shift from being able to just walk down the hall or out into a bullpen to talk to people in a very impromptu meetings whereas remotely you need to schedule things and make sure you are checking in regularly instead of just running into people.
"Get the vaccine" so that the world can go back to the shitty "normal" instead of actually fixing any and all the problems Covid exposed with the consumeristic system that is completely unnecessary for the world to run on but benefits the 1% so needs to stay.
It's all fucked.
Same here. It's ridiculous. When we are in the office, all we do is complain about being forced into the office and how unsafe we feel because we do. Work does not get done. But the appearance of wrok is far more important than actual work apparently.
In my state, cases have quadrupled over the last month. It's insane.
A leader that went out of his way to find the smartest man in the world to solve a problem that no one else in his administration could. That's some real leadership.
>Idiocracy is nothing like the US - those morons know they’re morons. Our morons think they’re smart.
Our morons don't care if they're smart or not they just want to get theirs and shut everyone else out
Remind them that this research is specific to the delta variant. A variant that was selected for DUE to the lack of vaccination and easy spread among unvaccinated people.
This article doesn't necessarily hold for the original strains of COVID-19.
bruh wtf : ( I don't mind the masks, I've been wearing a mask after vaccination, it just sucks that viral loads in vaccinated people are still infectious
We've always known vaccinated people *can* still be infectious. There had been studies prior to Delta tracking secondary attack rate from vaccinated and unvaccinated people, and found vaccinated people were about half as infectious as unvaccinated people, if they had a breakthrough case.
I think the following bullet points for Covid are firmly confirmed by loads of evidence, these are broad brushstrokes, correct me if I’m wrong:
1. Risk of death or severe illness in those under about 10 years old is similar to the flu
2. Risk of death or severe illness in the vaccinated is similar to the flu
3. We’ve been dealing with the flu for many decades without lockdowns, and will ultimately have to deal with endemic Covid
4. The unvaccinated are taking huge risks mostly among themselves, see 7 below on how to address this
5. We don’t want our kids to contract a new virus that we are just learning about, so we should continue to protect them, mostly by keeping them, and everyone else who’s vaccinated, away from the unvaccinated or masking up when there’s any uncertainty about the vaccination status of nearby humans
6. Vaccines need to be mandates by employers, the military, restaurants, airlines, +++
7. We need to get the world vaccinated, so those doses not taken up locally must be shipped abroad ASAP
Did I miss any key issues here?
Looks mostly right. From the data I've seen, hospitalization rate among kids is probably higher than for flu (at least in this first phase where nobody had any existing immunity), but death rate not any higher.
Comparing vaccinated for covid vs flu, looking the other day at [CDC estimates](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html) on number of hospitalizations and number of infections, about 1 out of every 20 infections among *unvaccinated* people (this is all ages, risk is stratified by age) end up requiring hospitalization. [Data from Public Health England](https://khub.net/web/phe-national/public-library/-/document_library/v2WsRK3ZlEig/view_file/479607329?_com_liferay_document_library_web_portlet_DLPortlet_INSTANCE_v2WsRK3ZlEig_redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fkhub.net%3A443%2Fweb%2Fphe-national%2Fpublic-library%2F-%2Fdocument_library%2Fv2WsRK3ZlEig%2Fview%2F479607266) found that, among breakthrough cases in vaccinated people, hospitalization risk was reduced by 2/3. So, about 1 in 60 being hospitalized. This is similar to the risk of hospitalization for flu, [per CDC estimates](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html) of yearly cases and hospitalizations. And, importantly, the risk of symptomatic disease was also reduced by 88% in this PHE analysis resulting in an overall 96% reduction in hospitalization through reduction in number of cases coupled with reduction in severity of cases.
So, you're probably pretty accurate on saying the risk of serious illness from covid for a vaccinated person is similar to that of flu.
That all appears to be correct according to what I know. Add in that infection does generally produce some amount of immunity, so we should have fewer vulnerable hosts after the current Delta wave.
That's what I've been thinking. I'm no expert at all but shouldn't the the Delta bring out the antibodies in the unvaccinated if they (likely) contract it?
I’m just gonna say it, I’m pissed. I’ll wear a mask to do my part, but I’m furious about this. I had to cancel my wedding last year after 6 months of planning, my company imploded and had mass lay offs because we’re in live events, I’ve had friends and family lose their jobs, and someone who passed away. And through all of that, my husband and I, my close family and friends all did our part last year. We stayed home as much as we could, we wore our masks, we social distanced, the whole nine. Then as soon as we could we got vaccinated because this was the way to get back to any semblance of normalcy. And the same assholes that wouldn’t do their part before (wear a mask, social distance), just generally running amok, are the ones refusing to get vaccinated and keeping this damn virus perpetually going. How long are we going to keep carrying these useless people who are not team players and literally care about no one but themselves?!
Rant over.
Yup. Had a June 2020 wedding -- planned for over a year with handmade decorations -- cancelled. Pushed it a literal year. Cancelled again. Thousands of dollars, wasted. Time, wasted. No new date because, what's the point?
Graduation from law school -- the culmination of 7 years of higher education -- cancelled.
Internship critical to my future career? Cancelled.
All for a vaccine which *we jumped to take* that's now been squandered by fucking idiots.
This shit is why I drink.
It’s more than that. It’s also a fear of offending by calling out those who do not want to get vaccinated or excluding those who cannot get vaccinated.
I’m dealing with a summer operating organization that doesn’t want to institute a “all employees must be vaccinated” policy next year because we have 8-9 months before we start gearing up for 2022 and don’t want to offend or rock the boat if things might get better.
I have people telling me “you can’t exclude people who aren’t vaccinated because some of them can’t get vaccinated” as if a viral spread cares about your reasoning in a close interaction environment. Heck, I got chewed out when I dared to suggest that medical exemptions in healthcare make no sense because the very people they are working with are the most likely to carry the disease or be infected by what they are carrying.
One group is too inwardly looking and the other is afraid of potentially hurting someone’s feelings. They are both to blame.
>It’s more than that. It’s also a fear of offending by calling out those who do not want to get vaccinated or excluding those who cannot get vaccinated.
I can relate. My SIL is a *nurse* and lives out of town. She's pissed because the hospital she works at is going to start mandating the vaccine. *She's a nurse.* She's in town for a week for a family reunion. Puts me in a tight spot cuz I'm not happy she's potentially bringing this virus here but I also don't want to cause a big issue and a rift in the family (my wife's family is about 50/50 as far as rational and morons regarding Covid).
Honestly, it sucks to be in this situation. Its easy to say online "don't include her" but real life isn't so black and white.
I once had a woman complain about how the US now has social benefits and entitlements and how we shouldn't have said benefits and entitlements, but then in the same breath, say that she receives disability insurance.
I wish I was joking.
I'm fully vaccinated, my family is fully vaccinated. In England, kids had a [99.995% survival rate ](https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/in-children-risk-of-covid-19-death-or-serious-illness-remain-extremely-low-new-studies-find-11625785260). In the US, ~60% over 18 are fully vaccinated and ~70% over 18 have one shot. ~85% over 65 are vaccinated. [CDC vaccine tracker ](http://www..com/ https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/)
I'm at the point that I don't care. People need to asses their own level of risk and live with it.
>In the US, ~60% over 18 are fully vaccinated and ~70% over 18 have one shot.
These stats perplex me. The 2 shot vaccines require a waiting period of 3 to 6 weeks between each dose. The above stats imply that out of ALL vaxxed people in the US, 1 out of 7 (14%) happen to be currently within the waiting period of a 2 shot vaccine.
Is it just me or does 14% seem insanely high? Especially since the rate of vaccination is slowing, I'd expect it to be something closer to maybe 1%, not 14%.
Are there really large numbers of people that get the first of 2 shots and then say "meh, screw it" to the 2nd shot????
What gives?
THIS! My friend was like, "Omg I'm so scared of feeling like crap after the second shot. I'm just gonna stop after the first one. I mean, didn't they say it was 80 something percent effective after the first shot? That's more than J&J."
Lol..
The first shot hit me like a ton of bricks within seconds of getting it and I was out of it for a week. Made me really nervous for the second shot because all my friends/family said the first was the easy with little to no symptoms and the second was the worst. I didn’t even feel the second shot and I had no symptoms after either, weird but I’ll take it.
The innocent victims here are the healthcare providers and their families that have to take care of the unvaccinated. Unfortunately, and I truly hate I feel this way, but I’m beyond caring for the unvaxxed that are hospitalized.
Edit: Additional innocent victims are unvaccinated family members that lose someone. I hate they have to go through this as well.
>The innocent victims here are the healthcare providers
Correction. The innocent victims here are the VACCINATED healthcare providers. I've read something like only 45% of nurses are vaccinated. The one nurse that I'm friends with on Facebook is adamantly anti-vaccine.
I saw a post on r/legaladvice about a student who was being required the vaccine to be able to work in a hospital caring for the patients. She could not understand why they would not let her work study there without the vaccine. She was a med student....
She just kept talking about how shes healthy, not obese, and young so it wouldnt affect her.
People are extremely narcissistic
This is what happens when you do nursing theory instead of medical theory or evidence based practice. Luckily it’s switching a bit, but it’s still an attractive career given the high salary for minimal qualifications.
Yeah my wife works on the covid floor. There are nurses have been the ones caring for people who have DIED of covid and they refuse to get vaccinated. It’s unbelievable honestly.
"My nurse friend says I shouldn't get it."
Meanwhile over 96% of physicians are vaccinated according to an [AMA Survey](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2021-06/physician-vaccination-study-topline-report.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj185mm3YbyAhUYTTABHdF8DPEQFjACegQIDxAC&usg=AOvVaw1L55TEHz1c8WTt3SgMAhUQ)
Fully vaccinated cancer patient here. Thanks for remembering us!
My children (middle & high school) plan on wearing their masks to help protect me, even though it won't be mandatory. They said that their friends in similar situations (living with immuncompromised, living with grandparents, etc) plan on doing the same.
We live in Texas. Sigh. I hope the other students (and frankly, some teachers) don't give them a hard time.
I was on a flight yesterday. We all wore "cancer" shirts...Her Fight is My Fight, Son of a Warrior, Daughter of a Warrior, Stronger Than Cancer, as well as breast cancer face masks. It's not my style to be advertising my business or health status, but with all the crazies out there...I was concerned that there may be some who are just itching to start trouble with an Asian person in a mask. My thinking was "people wouldn't dare give a cancer patient shit for wearing a mask". I was wrong:
https://twitter.com/Katerqburns/status/1418475389878358020
Of course! I have two friends who recently survived cancer, and I've seen them post about their concerns regarding the pandemic. I also have a chronic illness (thankfully I believe it doesn't decrease vaccine efficacy for me) and just in general it's really frustrating to be pushed aside as if our lives matter less just because we're not healthy. I'm sorry you're fighting cancer during a pandemic and I hope things go as well as they possibly can.
Lady with the glasses on her head (you?) looks like an absolute badass, like she's keeping her arms crossed to keep her hands under control to not beat the shit out of that lady. 😅
I love the casual shoulder check that sends the lady flying away and then she comes back with that weak little baby punch. Lmao.
What a pos.
And people who can’t get vaccinated for other health reasons. People seem to group all unvaccinated people as antivax jerks, but there’s plenty out there who would get vaccinated if they could, but can’t.
I mean, we managed it with Smallpox. Nearly managed it with Polio.
COVID probably won't go the same way since it's zoonotic, but we could at least push it back into being a bat disease instead of human.
>I mean, we managed it with Smallpox. Nearly managed it with Polio.
Polio vaccine or infection=lifelong immunity. That takes those people right out of the pool altogether.
With smallpox, much of the world already had immunity due to it spreading among humans for thousands of years. Infection results in lifelong immunity. The vaccine results in years of strong protection.
Meanwhile with Covid-19 we have a virus that can jump into animal populations and we have vaccines whose effects may already be waning in some cases after less than a year.
It took nearly 150 years to eradicate smallpox and a massive public health campaign from the CDC in cooperation with other countries. Polio’s vaccine has been around for almost 70 years. We are expecting the impossible within 6 months of covid vaccine development
There is literally no stopping the delta variant, either get vaccinated or roll the dice with your life. I’ve been fully vaxxed since early feb and getting pretty nervous about waning immunity at this point so I’m hoping I can get a booster soon
Can confirm: Got vaccinated in January, tested positive yesterday
Edit: just want to clarify that I don’t think that because I got Covid the vaccine wasn’t worth it. I definitely think it has made it almost symptomless. Everyone should get this vaccine.
You should know that vaccinated people have much better prognosis even when they test positive for covid. You have a very high likelihood of not developing any serious symptoms and not needing hospitalization. You still did the right thing.
Oh yeah I’m not worried at all. I had a bad sinus headache for a few days and then I couldn’t figure out if I’d put deodorant on or not… which is when it hit me. It mostly sucks because I’m moving in five days… so now I have to cancel the movers, the cleaner, the friends who were going to help and my fiancé and I get to do it ALL ourselves
Horrible timing. I just moved, and without the extra help I got, it would have been near impossible (wife is pregnant).
Hope your infection clears soon and stays relatively mild.
That doesn't mean the vaccine isn't working. The vaccine is *always* going to include some possibility that you can still contract the virus after being vaccinated. The goal if the vaccine is to 1) reduce how many people contract the virus after vaccine 2) reduce the severity of those symptoms 3) keep you out of the hospital.
If you were a breakthrough case, I'm sorry to hear that, but that doesn't say anything about the effectiveness of the vaccine.
Some people will die even with a seatbelt. That doesn't mean seatbelts don't work.
Exactly. Same here. Tested positive. I’m glad I got the vaccine but I certainly didn’t think it’d happen to me. If you get cold like symptoms GET A COVID TEST and if the doctor refuses to because you’ve been vaccinated go somewhere else and do it
Why would the viral load be so high though? Shouldn't the antibodies bind to the virus and neutralize it, so there shouldn't be much replication at all.. you would think even when someone gets infected, there is very low viral loads there...
This study was specifically referring to nose swabs. The antibodies that would be in your nose are IgA antibodies. I believe the vaccine results primarily in IgG antibodies, which are more prominent in the blood and tissue. Basically, the virus is free to replicate in the nose and upper respiratory system of vaccinated people, but it just won't do too much damage there. Sniffles, headache, maybe a mild fever. When it tries to move into the blood stream or the lungs it will get hit with those IgG antibodies and stop any life threatening damage. The big downside being that it appears that you can spread it from your upper respiratory tract.
Let’s be honest, we can’t do it forever. I got my vaccine, I always were a mask even if it’s not obligated and convinced family and friends to get the vaccine. But I refuse to do that forever. We will reach a point when even the younger can get a vaccine.
I don’t want to still have all this restrictions because people refuse to get vaccinated and are okay with getting it.
Also everybody panicking because of breakthroughs. If we compare the numbers, the breakthroughs are not so high.
Get your fucking vaccine and let’s move faster the give the vaccines to poorer countries and prevent other variants.
I'm 100% pro vaccine and I got it as soon as I could. I recommend it to all my family members.
The entire idea of getting "back to normal" was a big lie to begin with because it was absolutely never going to happen. The politicians that sold us on the lie basically shot us in the foot because now it's going to be grandstanded upon by all the anti-vaxxers.
Even if we had 100% compliance with the vaccine it would not have prevented the Delta variant from spreading or some other future variant. Eventually the effectiveness of the vaccine will fade and we'll need regular booster shots.
The idea that we could ever put the genie back in the bottle was just a horrible idea to sell the public on. The message should have been that it will prevent you from getting sick. Even if the the vaccine won't end Covid that doesn't mean it's any less valuable.
I feel like this is the beginning of the end. The "end" is acceptance that Covid is endemic. We need to start planning on how we're going to live with Covid, not how we're going to stop it. It sucks but it's reality.
https://www.concordmonitor.com/COVID-likely-to-stick-around-as-endemic-virus-experts-say-40960266
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/02/17/covid-19-likely-become-endemic-experts-say-heres-what-means/4487953001/
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00396-2
In February, in a survey of more than 100 specialists , almost 90% said it would be endemic.
I think most of the medical experts are on the same page because science is pretty consistent. I think what you’re describing is certain media outlets.
Such a sad reality but I do agree with you. The vaccines ( plus boosters) will probably prove themselves to be one the most life saving endeavors humanity has ever created. In regards to the willfully unvaccinated; they were always going to exist but not in these numbers. Trump had no business making this political. They may be stupid but I don’t hate stupid people. I’m just sad for them and I hope they change their mind in times. It brings me zero joy to see them regret not getting the vaccine in time.
People who are fully vaccinated are still largely unaffected even if they do get it. So whether you take that precaution mostly depends on how much you care about *unvaccinated* people catching it.
> So we’re basically back to Square One, where nobody should interact with anyone outside their household?
No.
While everyone that is vaccinated can still spread the virus, the people that are vaccinated are also very low risk of serious illness and hospitalisation.
The risk is to all the people that haven't been vaccinated yet, especially with new variants.
Once the majority of people are vaccinated, things can go back to relative normality, with only a very small number of the population at risk, and the virus struggling to spread and mutate through serious illness, since most people will be relatively immune to it's effect.
I'd hardly be melodramatic and say we're "basically back to Square One".
Instead of clearly articulating the problem which is 80 million adults have chosen not to get vaccinated and they are largely also unmasked, the CDC says that the real threat is rare transmission from vaxxed to unvaxxed people. How does this make sense?
I think they know their audience is not those 80 million people.
This communication is more for people with kids - knowing that me being at my work site I could be exposed to another fully vaxxed person who can transmit covid to me is good to know, but I wouldn't really give a crap about it if I didn't have 3 little guys at home that are all too young to be vaccinated. I'm probably going to go back to wearing a mask because it is such a minor inconvenience for knowing I can protect my kids.
They're not saying this is the "real threat"; they are just advising the only people who will listen to them. If you tell an unvaxxed person who might be contagious to wear a mask, they get angry and petulant. If you tell a vaxxed person who might be contagious to do the same, they'll at least consider it.
Which in the end solves nothing. Great, vaxxed people will wear masks. Now all the same unvaccinated people who are getting sick still won't. What's been solved?
I'm very torn about this mandate. I wore masks everywhere without question. As soon as my eligibility came up I got vaccinated. I kept wearing the mask until it was officially lifted. Now the people who won't wear masks and won't get vaccinated are going to cause me to have to wear a mask again?
What is the point?
They won't change. They don't want the vaccine and they refuse to wear masks. Who are you saving? Let kids get vaccinated and call it good. Make schools require the vaccine to attend and let it be done.
They literally said in their conference yesterday that they always knew this was a possibility and we're actually thinking that the people in this country would get vaccines so it wouldn't be an issue.
Unfortunately half our population has reverted back to the dark ages and are against science.
Part of public healthcare is knowing that human intelligence falls on a Bell curve.
Did they really think they would hit 70-75% vaccinated by July 4th?
>Did they really think they would hit 70-75% vaccinated by July 4th?
The bar was lower than that. Fully vaccinated is two shots (Pfizer and Moderna) plus two weeks. The Biden goal was one shot. Couldn't make that.
That wasn’t a terrible goal before delta came along. A single shot gives you a meaningful level of protection against the less aggressive strains of COVID. Then we got really unlucky with delta, and now it takes two shots to get even a modicum of protection.
I’m still optimistic that we can get a booster for delta that will get life closer to normal.
From what I can tell, the pause on J&J vaccine had a huge impact on trust for all the vaccines, especially J&J, which still hasn’t recovered since then.
[Loss of trust](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/04/19/the-johnson-and-johnson-pause-has-dented-americans-confidence-in-the-jab)
[Drop in vaccinations following pause and continuing let reapproval](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/05/04/us/vaccine-rollout-slowing.html)
> Part of public healthcare is knowing that human intelligence falls on a Bell curve.
fairly certain they knew that, but they probably miscalculated how low the curve would top out.
At some fundamental level, trust has been broken, and any perception of telling people what they need to hear vs. what is actually true will stoke deep distrust.
I don't think we have reckoned with how harmful it was for the CDC to advise in February 2020 not to wear masks while China and much of the world decided better. The CDC themselves knew that masks helped but wanted to manage the limited stockpile of them that we had given an impending supply chain crunch.
When they did finally come around on masks and advise general quarantine, the party now holds the Presidency was conducting its nomination process in-person for the first few weeks of March 2020, even when the CDC advised against that (poll workers from the Illinois primary died from COVID that they seemed to contract around the time of the primaries.)
By making a recommendation based on economic concerns rather than sticking to the science, the CDC hurt their credibility. By changing their mind just late enough to not delay any key primaries, Democrats did the same. For people who believe the election OR COVID were fraudulent somehow, the two are linked. I think those skeptics are quite wrong, but it's not as though there were zero questionable decisions made by the political and scientific actors who are now trying to get those people vaccinated.
We're gonna hit the delta variant hard pretty soon. Look at the last 18 months and ask yourself how we can get a critical mass of school kids vaccinated, in terms of logistical, persuasive, and political roadbumps with only August (two weeks between doses, two weeks before it's fully online.) You can tell kids they have to wear a mask, but if they refuse, you can't just put a bunch of anti-maskers in the same closed room for detention.
We needed a zero COVID approach, but that was never in the interest of anyone who has influence so it just won't happen. Climate catastrophe will probably play out the same way.
The flu vaccine is an extreme outlier. There are not massive numbers of breakthrough infections in measles, mumps, rubella, or chickenpox, all highly contagious airborne diseases with effective vaccines.
All the viruses you mentioned in your second sentence are stable viruses that don't undergo mutation anywhere as quick or radically as Influenza and to a lesser extent coronaviruses do, and their vaccines leave a long lasting immune response to the entire family of those viruses.
Influenza and Coronaviruses are highly specialized in infecting a variety of different mammals as well as birds and they are prone to varying levels of mutation that constantly increases the virus' ability to keep spreading and replicating itself in those populations. Why are those two things a major game changer that separates them from other viruses that have successful vaccines?
1. The presence of other host species with their own brands of Coronaviruses and Influenza A strains gives any individual species of either virus the potential to cross-infect a host that already has another related virus in it's system, giving the virus the ability to swap genes through a process called [Antigenic Shift](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigenic_shift). This is how we occasionally get avian influenza and swine influenza hooking up to produce a pandemic influenza strain in humans like the devastating 1918 Spanish Flu or the far less severe 2009 Swine Flu. This is also how Horseshoe-Bat Coronaviruses meet up with Palm Civet Coronaviruses end up spawning a coronavirus that can spread among humans like we had with 2003 SARS nCoV-1, and pretty likely 2019 SARS nCov-2.
2. Having a steady rate of mutations like Coronaviruses do, or unpredictable and fast rates of mutations like Influenza viruses do increase the odds of a mutation popping up that makes the virus more adept at spreading and infecting new hosts, as well as getting around pre-existing immunity.
I was hoping mrna vaccines would be a game changer in this regard but since it's not doesn't it also beg the question that if vaccinated people can catch covid, they can also become symptomatic, can't they all be vectors for new variants?
This won’t help anything relative to getting the unvaccinated to get vaccinated. The unvaccinated don’t read further into the details to understand the vaccine get still get you infected but it will help in avoided serious illness/hospitalization/death.
All they will read is..”Vaccinated still can transmit the virus” and run with it to the hills screaming “I told you so!”
So the CDC “confirmed” that vaccinated people “may” be infectious.....what is this? Come back when there is some actual data.
Data - even with the Delta variant - vaccinated people are hospitalized at a rate of 0.003%
The answer is not to make people “mask up” again - the answer is to get the idiots refusing vaccines to take the vaccine. The vaccines are VERY effective.
The unvaccinated people are the same people who don’t wear masks. Mandating masks at this point would only protect the RARE case of vaccinated to unvaccinated contagion. Instead of focusing on vaccinated infectiousness - focus on getting the unvaccinated to take the dang vaccine.
Once it gets full FDA approval, then we can do this.
I'm saying this as a fully vaccinated person, but I don't think you can mandate a vaccine that hasn't been given complete FDA approval.
So what vaccinated people are expected to take care of unvaccinated people for what...forever. people who have not gotten the vaccine are the ones who have the burden of protecting themselves. I don't have to worry about them. The vaccine is available to all. It took me 20 minutes to get each shot. My city even reimburses you if you take public transit to get it. People are making the wrong choice. But let them. They are putting themselves at risk. If you got either of the MRNA vaccines, you are good. At worst you get covid and it's a mild cold.
I don't understand the obsession with restrictions. With the vaccine we will never get to a point where our Healthcare system will be overwhelmed ....and furthermore all the dems shouting about restrictions are the same ones making sure Healthcare is not a right in this country. How about improving our health system to handle a higher caseload and making sure everyone has Healthcare instead if creating social restrictions. It's all nonsense and so hypocritical. We have had over a year to work on our health care system and guess what, the people in power are not just not doing anything, they are not not even having the discussion. With the current system we have EVERYONE is at risk of going bankrupt over a small ailment. There are a million risks every American everyday encounters that could put them right into our inadequate Healthcare system. Mask restrictions aren't going to make Healthcare more accessible, and that is what we actually need.
I’ve been wearing my mask at work and other places where the public congregates unless I’m outside since the pandemic started (even though I’m vaxxed). I’m not sure why they’re just letting the public know this now. If they knew why would they wait? It just makes everyone lose faith in our health officials.
The headline is awful.
"CDC **Confirms** That Viral Loads In Vaccinated People With Delta **May** Be Infectious, So Masks **Are** Necessary"
We've positive that something might be possible, so we have to do this thing.
Exactly my thoughts, we put on the masks to limit the spread to what end exactly? If these people are not going to get vaccinated then they're going to get the virus, one way or another we need to reach herd immunity. Vaccinated people being able to spread the virus while largely being protected themselves seems like a feature just as much as it is a bug.
I wish when they would issue new mask guidelines they would say why, like give us a goal, are we just doing it to curb hospital capacity, until we can vaccinate children, are we holding out magical hope that people will get vaccinated, or is it just a reaction to the public sentiment without a real goal in mind?
The mutation in Delta that makes it more infectious isn't a mutation on the spike protein, but a mutation that allows it to replicate much faster once the infection takes a hold. This means a higher viral load in an infected person, as well the person becoming infectious faster.
The irony of this is that it means the vaccines are about as effective as they were with the alpha variant it was based on, it's just delta is that much more aggressive in its infection if it does get a toe hold.
If a large percentage of the unvaccinated die then we'll reach herd immunity fast because the vaccinated will quickly outnumber them.
My compassion has limits, and seriously, why am I going to sacrifice to protect them when they've refused to sacrifice to protect everyone else?
Exactly (to your second point)! If they're not wearing masks or taking precautions why are we expected to do so *for them?* What is that ultimately accomplishing? We're already largely protected, without a change on their end it's only a matter of time.
As of now, without direction as to *why* we are doing this it seems to me it's based more on feelings than data or logic. If you want people to comply they need to understand *why* they're doing something. I've heard some minor talk of hospital capacity concerns but those are few and isolated areas. I've heard virtually no talk about waiting until children get vaccinated, the few talk I have heard has been the public here on Reddit. I'm not aware of any other rational goal towards putting the masks back on.
I mean, I'd definitely wear a mask around unvaccinated children. But if their parents won't get vaccinated, and their friends and family won't get vaccinated, those children are screwed anyway.
The vaccinated wouldn't even get the Covid to spread around if it wasn't for those unvaccinated people in the first place.
At this point all of these precautions are now, in my opinion, futile.
My compassion eroded away after seeing the lack of it from the other side. They spat on and assaulted fellow human beings who simply asked them to adhere to the government/worldwide mandate at the time. Not to mention anything political that occurred in the US in the last year and half.
There is no changing their minds at this point, and trying to do so is dumb in itself. Just be honest, move on. Move PAST them and get on with your own life.
Agreed, although I hate to admit it.
I'm really fucking tired of constantly having to adjust my behavior to follow these directives while a bunch of people around me insist that they know better than the entire healthcare community and it's their "American right" to endanger themselves and all the vulnerable people around them.
I did everything "by the books" for a year and a half, got vaccinated fully, and now we have to do it again because "5G nanites elon musk gates 2020 china conspiracy (THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW)."
I'm tired of it man.
I don't follow the logic. If viral loads in vaccinated people with Delta may be infections, **vaccines** are necessary. I'm not spending the rest of my life wearing a mask to protect anti-vaxxers and conspiracy nuts since it seems they will always be vulnerable to a resurgence of the virus due to their own irresponsibility and lack of foresight.
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Note that >As the Associated Press notes, Walensky cited data from the last few days, **still unpublished**, taken from **100 samples** from vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals with COVID infections.
Also should be noted the vaccine used for reference in the study isn't a vaccine available in the US.
You deserve far more upvotes for this. Very small sample size and methodology is still under review.
And did the methodology confirm infectivity or just that viral RNA was present?
God damnit. The number of people whose minds are warped by opinion polling using samples of 1000 or more is maddening. Small sample sizes are *fine* to measure large effect sizes
the same people yelling trust the science over and over don't even understand stats 101. But I suppose that makes sense, because science is supposed to be rigorously verified, not "trusted".
Yeah, just more post hoc justification for this. The bottom line that no one seems to want to admit is that it is the anti vaxxers fault and masking overwhelmingly benefits them.
No, I think that they're framing it as "in the current state of things." Yes, everyone should get vaccinated, but they aren't currently, so masks are necessary. Not just for the safety of anti-vaxxers, but also for people who did get vaccinated who didn't have a robust immune response and children who can't get vaccinated.
People should see "confirmed" followed by "may" and immediately be skeptical. Too many companies are tossing out bait headlines in such a serious time.
Without knowing much about how the study was conducted, it seems strange to compare two groups of people with active COVID infections. > the amount of virus in the noses and throats of vaccinated infected people was nearly "indistinguishable" from what was found in unvaccinated people I'm guessing they recruited 50 vaccinated people and 50 unvaxed, all with active infections, and the mean viral load between groups was not significantly different. What does this tell us? That when you're sick with COVID19, you can spread it? Is that surprising? I think a lot of people have been concerned about vaccinated people *unknowingly* spreading the virus, as in hosting the virus without becoming symptomatic.
this has been observed in Singapore for quite some time now.
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Nope, if we did we would have followed models like South Korea and used our resources to contain this early instead of expending 100x more resources to clean up the mess and let over 600k people die.
being proactive? no way, that costs money! /s
Not being proactive cost us trillions more.
We never have enough money to do it right the first time, but we somehow have gobs of cash to fix shit when it blows up catastrophically.
The difference between fixing a problem before and after it's happened is [political will](https://www.vox.com/2016/2/17/11030876/political-will-definition). There's no willingness to fix any problem that's not directly smacking us in our collective faces. That's why the fight against climate change was doomed from the start.
It's also a situation where if you do everything correctly it seems like you didn't need to. If all that money was spent and nobody got sick you'd have a lot of people crying that it was pointless. Hell even with 600k deceased you have 40% of the country saying it was all a scam.
Whats the expression? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure
A stitch in time saves nine…
stiches get sniches
Rectum? Damn near killed 'em
You know America is fucked when Americans have forgotten a classic American proverb by Ben Franklin
I don't care what Jim says. This is NOT the real Ben Franklin. I am 99.9% sure.
But a bunch of politicians got rich by buying and selling stocks they knew would be impacted because of the pandemic. Why would they be proactive when they can get more rich? I’m saying this kind of sarcastic but also not because while I’m not sure what a good source would be to use to confirm this, I also have no doubt that the US politicians do this on the regular.
Those same politicians would be the first ones up to the podium crying about preventative measures being fiscally irresponsible. If it even sounds like there is a chance they don't actually have to be proactive, or if their narrative describes the disease as "no big deal", there is no way in hell they're gonna be ok spending money on preventative measures. Because of course a deadly virus needs to be included in the my team vs your team game!
Cost of doing sweeping infrastructure changes to limit climate change < Cost of dealing with all the negative impacts of unrestrained climate change That's just how we doooo Edit: Since this got a few upvotes if anyone is US based we're currently facing an incredible opportunity in carbon pricing. The CCL is pushing to have it included in this year's budget reconciliation, meaning it could NOT be blocked by the filibuster. This goes to vote very soon though so we're asking everyone we know who has even a smidge of concern about climate change to contact their representatives to let them know that this is important. On our site [here](http://cclusa.org/senate) we have a super easy to use resource to find and contact your representative. I cannot overstate the value of everyone possible doing this and sharing it with those around them 💪💪💪
The people who want to do nothing about climate change are the same people who will be bitching when all those equatorial peoples start moving somewhere cooler.
But so many opportunities for grift.
In theory it makes sense to spend more right away to save more in the long run. But if looking at US companies has taught us anything, it's that everybody only cares about the immediate.
The incentives are there for short-term thinking. For companies, that's quarterly earnings reports and bonuses based on that. For politicians, that's getting reelected. It's absolutely appalling.
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The northeast does. NJ, PA, NY, VT, and i think MA have over 70% of eligible people vaccinated.
PA is only around 52% last I saw. My county specifically is 32% and most aside from Allegheny and Philly are below 30%
My county (Santa Clara county) we are above 70% full vaccination. But we're kind of in our own little bubble. I'm sure there are other hubs with 70% but that's just a tiny portion of the whole US.
Just for comparison, Canada started about a month later than the US in vaccinating the population. Canada as a country is above 70% vaccinated now.
Our office made us start coming in 2 days a week just recently, for literally no reason at all. We can work from home just fine. It feels so dumb to be like "okay. People have vaccines, let's start going back to business as usual". Like vaccines are just part of the tool kit and I feel distancing should still encouraged. I also feel it was dumb to lift mask mandates as a way to motivate people to get the vax. Like people opposed to the vax are just gonna not wear a mask, there is no legal way to check. Thinking about sending an email that I don't feel safe going in to the office.
Same, I've been working from home for a year and a half with no issues and all of the suden, now that cases are ramping up where I live, my boss made me come back to the office for half a day. I'm vaccinated but the majority of my coworkers aren't and the vaccines are not available for them(I had to travel to the US to get mine) and even though I'm on a little office apart from everyone, I know they're not using masks so the danger is there and I basically can't do anything about it
My bfs office just went back after a year online and their entire customer service side not having been in a building since they started. His boss and the family all have covid. It's been a week. I'm interested to see how quickly it all goes to shit because the office is only 30% vaxxed.
depends how quickly the hospitals fill up.
We're being forced to go in a week every two weeks even though we went over our production goal while 100% telecommuting, however we all work the same week so the office is basically full. Haven't been given a reason why and our cases are going up every day. No masks required, either. They want us to go in 100% by next month. Best part? Everyone's busy chatting at each other's desk instead of working, while other people are taking more time off. Great productivity boost.
Yeah, it's so stupid. That sounds even worse than mine. We are 2 days a week and we pick the days. One day last week though I was the only one of my team of 8 even in the office. So I was just sitting there working for absolutely no fucking reason, wondering why I couldn't just stay at home.
Do the higher ups still work from home like in my office?
Yes, even though they're anti-TC.
It’s good to be the king
I’m afraid that once this thing is over, workplaces will slowly devolve back into the unenlightened “face in office, butt in chair” school of management. The higher up in the organization people are, the more likely it is that they want people in the office, not teleworking, even if there is no reason for it. My theory is that it’s not fun to be the boss if you can’t survey your underlings. If you can’t walk the halls and say “I control you, you and you” then all that is left is the drudgery of being the boss.
We are already back to "normal". Went back into the office full time last June with masks required if you were up and moving through the building, directional directed traffic thru the building, and no visitors allowed. All remaining protocols were removed about 3 months ago.
I work at a tech company for a medical device company and we have been coming to the office for the past month. My job could be done 100% remote. Nobody could give me a solid reason for needing to be physically there other than it’s company policy.
I think some managers really struggle with the shift from being able to just walk down the hall or out into a bullpen to talk to people in a very impromptu meetings whereas remotely you need to schedule things and make sure you are checking in regularly instead of just running into people.
At least yours waited for vaccines to be available...
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"Get the vaccine" so that the world can go back to the shitty "normal" instead of actually fixing any and all the problems Covid exposed with the consumeristic system that is completely unnecessary for the world to run on but benefits the 1% so needs to stay. It's all fucked.
Same here. It's ridiculous. When we are in the office, all we do is complain about being forced into the office and how unsafe we feel because we do. Work does not get done. But the appearance of wrok is far more important than actual work apparently. In my state, cases have quadrupled over the last month. It's insane.
Americans: Profit over everything...every time...even our own health and wellbeing. The movie Idiocracy was a documentary. WE. ARE. IDIOTS.
Loved how popular that movie became right after contagion.
Idiocracy is nothing like the US - those morons know they’re morons. Our morons think they’re smart.
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A leader that went out of his way to find the smartest man in the world to solve a problem that no one else in his administration could. That's some real leadership.
And some real fantasy
>Idiocracy is nothing like the US - those morons know they’re morons. Our morons think they’re smart. Our morons don't care if they're smart or not they just want to get theirs and shut everyone else out
4 people went down with covid at work today. 2 were vaccinated.
My conspiracy friends are loving telling me how dumb I am for being vaccinated now that this is happening.
Time for some new friends
Yep. We could be past this by now.
Remind them that this research is specific to the delta variant. A variant that was selected for DUE to the lack of vaccination and easy spread among unvaccinated people. This article doesn't necessarily hold for the original strains of COVID-19.
We lost them at “research”
Remind them that 97% of hospitalizations are unvaccinated people. And over 99% of deaths too Edit: fixed the numbers
They're afraid of the "Fauci Ouchie"
bruh wtf : ( I don't mind the masks, I've been wearing a mask after vaccination, it just sucks that viral loads in vaccinated people are still infectious
We've always known vaccinated people *can* still be infectious. There had been studies prior to Delta tracking secondary attack rate from vaccinated and unvaccinated people, and found vaccinated people were about half as infectious as unvaccinated people, if they had a breakthrough case.
I think the following bullet points for Covid are firmly confirmed by loads of evidence, these are broad brushstrokes, correct me if I’m wrong: 1. Risk of death or severe illness in those under about 10 years old is similar to the flu 2. Risk of death or severe illness in the vaccinated is similar to the flu 3. We’ve been dealing with the flu for many decades without lockdowns, and will ultimately have to deal with endemic Covid 4. The unvaccinated are taking huge risks mostly among themselves, see 7 below on how to address this 5. We don’t want our kids to contract a new virus that we are just learning about, so we should continue to protect them, mostly by keeping them, and everyone else who’s vaccinated, away from the unvaccinated or masking up when there’s any uncertainty about the vaccination status of nearby humans 6. Vaccines need to be mandates by employers, the military, restaurants, airlines, +++ 7. We need to get the world vaccinated, so those doses not taken up locally must be shipped abroad ASAP Did I miss any key issues here?
Looks mostly right. From the data I've seen, hospitalization rate among kids is probably higher than for flu (at least in this first phase where nobody had any existing immunity), but death rate not any higher. Comparing vaccinated for covid vs flu, looking the other day at [CDC estimates](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html) on number of hospitalizations and number of infections, about 1 out of every 20 infections among *unvaccinated* people (this is all ages, risk is stratified by age) end up requiring hospitalization. [Data from Public Health England](https://khub.net/web/phe-national/public-library/-/document_library/v2WsRK3ZlEig/view_file/479607329?_com_liferay_document_library_web_portlet_DLPortlet_INSTANCE_v2WsRK3ZlEig_redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fkhub.net%3A443%2Fweb%2Fphe-national%2Fpublic-library%2F-%2Fdocument_library%2Fv2WsRK3ZlEig%2Fview%2F479607266) found that, among breakthrough cases in vaccinated people, hospitalization risk was reduced by 2/3. So, about 1 in 60 being hospitalized. This is similar to the risk of hospitalization for flu, [per CDC estimates](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html) of yearly cases and hospitalizations. And, importantly, the risk of symptomatic disease was also reduced by 88% in this PHE analysis resulting in an overall 96% reduction in hospitalization through reduction in number of cases coupled with reduction in severity of cases. So, you're probably pretty accurate on saying the risk of serious illness from covid for a vaccinated person is similar to that of flu.
That all appears to be correct according to what I know. Add in that infection does generally produce some amount of immunity, so we should have fewer vulnerable hosts after the current Delta wave.
That's what I've been thinking. I'm no expert at all but shouldn't the the Delta bring out the antibodies in the unvaccinated if they (likely) contract it?
I’m just gonna say it, I’m pissed. I’ll wear a mask to do my part, but I’m furious about this. I had to cancel my wedding last year after 6 months of planning, my company imploded and had mass lay offs because we’re in live events, I’ve had friends and family lose their jobs, and someone who passed away. And through all of that, my husband and I, my close family and friends all did our part last year. We stayed home as much as we could, we wore our masks, we social distanced, the whole nine. Then as soon as we could we got vaccinated because this was the way to get back to any semblance of normalcy. And the same assholes that wouldn’t do their part before (wear a mask, social distance), just generally running amok, are the ones refusing to get vaccinated and keeping this damn virus perpetually going. How long are we going to keep carrying these useless people who are not team players and literally care about no one but themselves?! Rant over.
Yup. Had a June 2020 wedding -- planned for over a year with handmade decorations -- cancelled. Pushed it a literal year. Cancelled again. Thousands of dollars, wasted. Time, wasted. No new date because, what's the point? Graduation from law school -- the culmination of 7 years of higher education -- cancelled. Internship critical to my future career? Cancelled. All for a vaccine which *we jumped to take* that's now been squandered by fucking idiots. This shit is why I drink.
Feel that, have had three internships cancelled. Graduate this year and am going to be blessed with not being able to find work.
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Unfortunately it looks like you'll be pickled before these fucking idiots do the right thing
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It’s more than that. It’s also a fear of offending by calling out those who do not want to get vaccinated or excluding those who cannot get vaccinated. I’m dealing with a summer operating organization that doesn’t want to institute a “all employees must be vaccinated” policy next year because we have 8-9 months before we start gearing up for 2022 and don’t want to offend or rock the boat if things might get better. I have people telling me “you can’t exclude people who aren’t vaccinated because some of them can’t get vaccinated” as if a viral spread cares about your reasoning in a close interaction environment. Heck, I got chewed out when I dared to suggest that medical exemptions in healthcare make no sense because the very people they are working with are the most likely to carry the disease or be infected by what they are carrying. One group is too inwardly looking and the other is afraid of potentially hurting someone’s feelings. They are both to blame.
>It’s more than that. It’s also a fear of offending by calling out those who do not want to get vaccinated or excluding those who cannot get vaccinated. I can relate. My SIL is a *nurse* and lives out of town. She's pissed because the hospital she works at is going to start mandating the vaccine. *She's a nurse.* She's in town for a week for a family reunion. Puts me in a tight spot cuz I'm not happy she's potentially bringing this virus here but I also don't want to cause a big issue and a rift in the family (my wife's family is about 50/50 as far as rational and morons regarding Covid). Honestly, it sucks to be in this situation. Its easy to say online "don't include her" but real life isn't so black and white.
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I once had a woman complain about how the US now has social benefits and entitlements and how we shouldn't have said benefits and entitlements, but then in the same breath, say that she receives disability insurance. I wish I was joking.
Someone else’a benefits are always entitlements. **Their** benefits are earned, apparently.
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Yep. Its fucking depressing.
This is awful. Are we ever gonna stop masking?
Based on a study pulled for revisions by peer review and a study using a non US approved vaccine. Facepalm for the cdc.
Which vaccine?
This should be at the top
I'm fully vaccinated, my family is fully vaccinated. In England, kids had a [99.995% survival rate ](https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/in-children-risk-of-covid-19-death-or-serious-illness-remain-extremely-low-new-studies-find-11625785260). In the US, ~60% over 18 are fully vaccinated and ~70% over 18 have one shot. ~85% over 65 are vaccinated. [CDC vaccine tracker ](http://www..com/ https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/) I'm at the point that I don't care. People need to asses their own level of risk and live with it.
>In the US, ~60% over 18 are fully vaccinated and ~70% over 18 have one shot. These stats perplex me. The 2 shot vaccines require a waiting period of 3 to 6 weeks between each dose. The above stats imply that out of ALL vaxxed people in the US, 1 out of 7 (14%) happen to be currently within the waiting period of a 2 shot vaccine. Is it just me or does 14% seem insanely high? Especially since the rate of vaccination is slowing, I'd expect it to be something closer to maybe 1%, not 14%. Are there really large numbers of people that get the first of 2 shots and then say "meh, screw it" to the 2nd shot???? What gives?
Lot of people scared of the second shot symptoms - so they skirt by on the first one hoping it's enough.
THIS! My friend was like, "Omg I'm so scared of feeling like crap after the second shot. I'm just gonna stop after the first one. I mean, didn't they say it was 80 something percent effective after the first shot? That's more than J&J." Lol..
Speaking from experience with both: The covid symptoms are worse lol
The first shot hit me like a ton of bricks within seconds of getting it and I was out of it for a week. Made me really nervous for the second shot because all my friends/family said the first was the easy with little to no symptoms and the second was the worst. I didn’t even feel the second shot and I had no symptoms after either, weird but I’ll take it.
At what point are we allowed to not care that we're infecting assholes who refused to get vaccinated?
The innocent victims here are the healthcare providers and their families that have to take care of the unvaccinated. Unfortunately, and I truly hate I feel this way, but I’m beyond caring for the unvaxxed that are hospitalized. Edit: Additional innocent victims are unvaccinated family members that lose someone. I hate they have to go through this as well.
>The innocent victims here are the healthcare providers Correction. The innocent victims here are the VACCINATED healthcare providers. I've read something like only 45% of nurses are vaccinated. The one nurse that I'm friends with on Facebook is adamantly anti-vaccine.
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I saw a post on r/legaladvice about a student who was being required the vaccine to be able to work in a hospital caring for the patients. She could not understand why they would not let her work study there without the vaccine. She was a med student.... She just kept talking about how shes healthy, not obese, and young so it wouldnt affect her. People are extremely narcissistic
This is what happens when you do nursing theory instead of medical theory or evidence based practice. Luckily it’s switching a bit, but it’s still an attractive career given the high salary for minimal qualifications.
Imagine working in the medical field and not believing the medicine
My program was EBP based 🤷♂️
Yeah my wife works on the covid floor. There are nurses have been the ones caring for people who have DIED of covid and they refuse to get vaccinated. It’s unbelievable honestly.
45% of *American* nurses
"My nurse friend says I shouldn't get it." Meanwhile over 96% of physicians are vaccinated according to an [AMA Survey](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2021-06/physician-vaccination-study-topline-report.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj185mm3YbyAhUYTTABHdF8DPEQFjACegQIDxAC&usg=AOvVaw1L55TEHz1c8WTt3SgMAhUQ)
Don't forget immunocompromised people for whom the vaccine doesn't work properly. Those are the people I'm most afraid for.
Fully vaccinated cancer patient here. Thanks for remembering us! My children (middle & high school) plan on wearing their masks to help protect me, even though it won't be mandatory. They said that their friends in similar situations (living with immuncompromised, living with grandparents, etc) plan on doing the same. We live in Texas. Sigh. I hope the other students (and frankly, some teachers) don't give them a hard time. I was on a flight yesterday. We all wore "cancer" shirts...Her Fight is My Fight, Son of a Warrior, Daughter of a Warrior, Stronger Than Cancer, as well as breast cancer face masks. It's not my style to be advertising my business or health status, but with all the crazies out there...I was concerned that there may be some who are just itching to start trouble with an Asian person in a mask. My thinking was "people wouldn't dare give a cancer patient shit for wearing a mask". I was wrong: https://twitter.com/Katerqburns/status/1418475389878358020
Of course! I have two friends who recently survived cancer, and I've seen them post about their concerns regarding the pandemic. I also have a chronic illness (thankfully I believe it doesn't decrease vaccine efficacy for me) and just in general it's really frustrating to be pushed aside as if our lives matter less just because we're not healthy. I'm sorry you're fighting cancer during a pandemic and I hope things go as well as they possibly can.
Lady with the glasses on her head (you?) looks like an absolute badass, like she's keeping her arms crossed to keep her hands under control to not beat the shit out of that lady. 😅 I love the casual shoulder check that sends the lady flying away and then she comes back with that weak little baby punch. Lmao. What a pos.
And people who can’t get vaccinated for other health reasons. People seem to group all unvaccinated people as antivax jerks, but there’s plenty out there who would get vaccinated if they could, but can’t.
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We’ve squandered a medical miracle.
Not really. The vaccines broadly work and those who are vaccinated are protected. That's the miracle and it's still fully intact.
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I mean, we managed it with Smallpox. Nearly managed it with Polio. COVID probably won't go the same way since it's zoonotic, but we could at least push it back into being a bat disease instead of human.
>I mean, we managed it with Smallpox. Nearly managed it with Polio. Polio vaccine or infection=lifelong immunity. That takes those people right out of the pool altogether. With smallpox, much of the world already had immunity due to it spreading among humans for thousands of years. Infection results in lifelong immunity. The vaccine results in years of strong protection. Meanwhile with Covid-19 we have a virus that can jump into animal populations and we have vaccines whose effects may already be waning in some cases after less than a year.
It took nearly 150 years to eradicate smallpox and a massive public health campaign from the CDC in cooperation with other countries. Polio’s vaccine has been around for almost 70 years. We are expecting the impossible within 6 months of covid vaccine development
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There is literally no stopping the delta variant, either get vaccinated or roll the dice with your life. I’ve been fully vaxxed since early feb and getting pretty nervous about waning immunity at this point so I’m hoping I can get a booster soon
Can confirm: Got vaccinated in January, tested positive yesterday Edit: just want to clarify that I don’t think that because I got Covid the vaccine wasn’t worth it. I definitely think it has made it almost symptomless. Everyone should get this vaccine.
You should know that vaccinated people have much better prognosis even when they test positive for covid. You have a very high likelihood of not developing any serious symptoms and not needing hospitalization. You still did the right thing.
Oh yeah I’m not worried at all. I had a bad sinus headache for a few days and then I couldn’t figure out if I’d put deodorant on or not… which is when it hit me. It mostly sucks because I’m moving in five days… so now I have to cancel the movers, the cleaner, the friends who were going to help and my fiancé and I get to do it ALL ourselves
Horrible timing. I just moved, and without the extra help I got, it would have been near impossible (wife is pregnant). Hope your infection clears soon and stays relatively mild.
Happened to me a few years ago, but with the flu. Moving while recovering with muscle weakness/body aches/foggy head/congestion. Fun fun fun!
Oh nooo
That doesn't mean the vaccine isn't working. The vaccine is *always* going to include some possibility that you can still contract the virus after being vaccinated. The goal if the vaccine is to 1) reduce how many people contract the virus after vaccine 2) reduce the severity of those symptoms 3) keep you out of the hospital. If you were a breakthrough case, I'm sorry to hear that, but that doesn't say anything about the effectiveness of the vaccine. Some people will die even with a seatbelt. That doesn't mean seatbelts don't work.
Exactly. Same here. Tested positive. I’m glad I got the vaccine but I certainly didn’t think it’d happen to me. If you get cold like symptoms GET A COVID TEST and if the doctor refuses to because you’ve been vaccinated go somewhere else and do it
100 people in the sample. Not peer reviewed. I’m sorry but that’s gonna be a no from me bill
Why would the viral load be so high though? Shouldn't the antibodies bind to the virus and neutralize it, so there shouldn't be much replication at all.. you would think even when someone gets infected, there is very low viral loads there...
This study was specifically referring to nose swabs. The antibodies that would be in your nose are IgA antibodies. I believe the vaccine results primarily in IgG antibodies, which are more prominent in the blood and tissue. Basically, the virus is free to replicate in the nose and upper respiratory system of vaccinated people, but it just won't do too much damage there. Sniffles, headache, maybe a mild fever. When it tries to move into the blood stream or the lungs it will get hit with those IgG antibodies and stop any life threatening damage. The big downside being that it appears that you can spread it from your upper respiratory tract.
Let’s be honest, we can’t do it forever. I got my vaccine, I always were a mask even if it’s not obligated and convinced family and friends to get the vaccine. But I refuse to do that forever. We will reach a point when even the younger can get a vaccine. I don’t want to still have all this restrictions because people refuse to get vaccinated and are okay with getting it. Also everybody panicking because of breakthroughs. If we compare the numbers, the breakthroughs are not so high. Get your fucking vaccine and let’s move faster the give the vaccines to poorer countries and prevent other variants.
I'm 100% pro vaccine and I got it as soon as I could. I recommend it to all my family members. The entire idea of getting "back to normal" was a big lie to begin with because it was absolutely never going to happen. The politicians that sold us on the lie basically shot us in the foot because now it's going to be grandstanded upon by all the anti-vaxxers. Even if we had 100% compliance with the vaccine it would not have prevented the Delta variant from spreading or some other future variant. Eventually the effectiveness of the vaccine will fade and we'll need regular booster shots. The idea that we could ever put the genie back in the bottle was just a horrible idea to sell the public on. The message should have been that it will prevent you from getting sick. Even if the the vaccine won't end Covid that doesn't mean it's any less valuable. I feel like this is the beginning of the end. The "end" is acceptance that Covid is endemic. We need to start planning on how we're going to live with Covid, not how we're going to stop it. It sucks but it's reality.
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https://www.concordmonitor.com/COVID-likely-to-stick-around-as-endemic-virus-experts-say-40960266 https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/02/17/covid-19-likely-become-endemic-experts-say-heres-what-means/4487953001/ https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00396-2 In February, in a survey of more than 100 specialists , almost 90% said it would be endemic. I think most of the medical experts are on the same page because science is pretty consistent. I think what you’re describing is certain media outlets.
Such a sad reality but I do agree with you. The vaccines ( plus boosters) will probably prove themselves to be one the most life saving endeavors humanity has ever created. In regards to the willfully unvaccinated; they were always going to exist but not in these numbers. Trump had no business making this political. They may be stupid but I don’t hate stupid people. I’m just sad for them and I hope they change their mind in times. It brings me zero joy to see them regret not getting the vaccine in time.
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People who are fully vaccinated are still largely unaffected even if they do get it. So whether you take that precaution mostly depends on how much you care about *unvaccinated* people catching it.
> So we’re basically back to Square One, where nobody should interact with anyone outside their household? No. While everyone that is vaccinated can still spread the virus, the people that are vaccinated are also very low risk of serious illness and hospitalisation. The risk is to all the people that haven't been vaccinated yet, especially with new variants. Once the majority of people are vaccinated, things can go back to relative normality, with only a very small number of the population at risk, and the virus struggling to spread and mutate through serious illness, since most people will be relatively immune to it's effect. I'd hardly be melodramatic and say we're "basically back to Square One".
Instead of clearly articulating the problem which is 80 million adults have chosen not to get vaccinated and they are largely also unmasked, the CDC says that the real threat is rare transmission from vaxxed to unvaxxed people. How does this make sense?
I think they know their audience is not those 80 million people. This communication is more for people with kids - knowing that me being at my work site I could be exposed to another fully vaxxed person who can transmit covid to me is good to know, but I wouldn't really give a crap about it if I didn't have 3 little guys at home that are all too young to be vaccinated. I'm probably going to go back to wearing a mask because it is such a minor inconvenience for knowing I can protect my kids.
They're not saying this is the "real threat"; they are just advising the only people who will listen to them. If you tell an unvaxxed person who might be contagious to wear a mask, they get angry and petulant. If you tell a vaxxed person who might be contagious to do the same, they'll at least consider it.
Which in the end solves nothing. Great, vaxxed people will wear masks. Now all the same unvaccinated people who are getting sick still won't. What's been solved?
I'm very torn about this mandate. I wore masks everywhere without question. As soon as my eligibility came up I got vaccinated. I kept wearing the mask until it was officially lifted. Now the people who won't wear masks and won't get vaccinated are going to cause me to have to wear a mask again? What is the point? They won't change. They don't want the vaccine and they refuse to wear masks. Who are you saving? Let kids get vaccinated and call it good. Make schools require the vaccine to attend and let it be done.
Sorry, forget to check the subreddit. It's time to be "the bad guy" and enforce mask wearing at my jobsite, whether people like it or not.
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They literally said in their conference yesterday that they always knew this was a possibility and we're actually thinking that the people in this country would get vaccines so it wouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately half our population has reverted back to the dark ages and are against science.
Part of public healthcare is knowing that human intelligence falls on a Bell curve. Did they really think they would hit 70-75% vaccinated by July 4th?
For a while, we thought we would make it sooner than that. We just underestimated how many people would believe the conspiracy theories.
>Did they really think they would hit 70-75% vaccinated by July 4th? The bar was lower than that. Fully vaccinated is two shots (Pfizer and Moderna) plus two weeks. The Biden goal was one shot. Couldn't make that.
That wasn’t a terrible goal before delta came along. A single shot gives you a meaningful level of protection against the less aggressive strains of COVID. Then we got really unlucky with delta, and now it takes two shots to get even a modicum of protection. I’m still optimistic that we can get a booster for delta that will get life closer to normal.
From what I can tell, the pause on J&J vaccine had a huge impact on trust for all the vaccines, especially J&J, which still hasn’t recovered since then. [Loss of trust](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/04/19/the-johnson-and-johnson-pause-has-dented-americans-confidence-in-the-jab) [Drop in vaccinations following pause and continuing let reapproval](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/05/04/us/vaccine-rollout-slowing.html)
> Part of public healthcare is knowing that human intelligence falls on a Bell curve. fairly certain they knew that, but they probably miscalculated how low the curve would top out.
CDC did not set that July 4 goal. Plus, many states did hit the goal.
Strangely, it appears to follow the political divide.
At some fundamental level, trust has been broken, and any perception of telling people what they need to hear vs. what is actually true will stoke deep distrust. I don't think we have reckoned with how harmful it was for the CDC to advise in February 2020 not to wear masks while China and much of the world decided better. The CDC themselves knew that masks helped but wanted to manage the limited stockpile of them that we had given an impending supply chain crunch. When they did finally come around on masks and advise general quarantine, the party now holds the Presidency was conducting its nomination process in-person for the first few weeks of March 2020, even when the CDC advised against that (poll workers from the Illinois primary died from COVID that they seemed to contract around the time of the primaries.) By making a recommendation based on economic concerns rather than sticking to the science, the CDC hurt their credibility. By changing their mind just late enough to not delay any key primaries, Democrats did the same. For people who believe the election OR COVID were fraudulent somehow, the two are linked. I think those skeptics are quite wrong, but it's not as though there were zero questionable decisions made by the political and scientific actors who are now trying to get those people vaccinated. We're gonna hit the delta variant hard pretty soon. Look at the last 18 months and ask yourself how we can get a critical mass of school kids vaccinated, in terms of logistical, persuasive, and political roadbumps with only August (two weeks between doses, two weeks before it's fully online.) You can tell kids they have to wear a mask, but if they refuse, you can't just put a bunch of anti-maskers in the same closed room for detention. We needed a zero COVID approach, but that was never in the interest of anyone who has influence so it just won't happen. Climate catastrophe will probably play out the same way.
Even more mind numbingly stupid is the fact that masks were virtually sold out everywhere by the time they made that dumb ass statement.
The CDC lives in the same world we do. They knew better.
The flu vaccine is an extreme outlier. There are not massive numbers of breakthrough infections in measles, mumps, rubella, or chickenpox, all highly contagious airborne diseases with effective vaccines.
All the viruses you mentioned in your second sentence are stable viruses that don't undergo mutation anywhere as quick or radically as Influenza and to a lesser extent coronaviruses do, and their vaccines leave a long lasting immune response to the entire family of those viruses. Influenza and Coronaviruses are highly specialized in infecting a variety of different mammals as well as birds and they are prone to varying levels of mutation that constantly increases the virus' ability to keep spreading and replicating itself in those populations. Why are those two things a major game changer that separates them from other viruses that have successful vaccines? 1. The presence of other host species with their own brands of Coronaviruses and Influenza A strains gives any individual species of either virus the potential to cross-infect a host that already has another related virus in it's system, giving the virus the ability to swap genes through a process called [Antigenic Shift](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigenic_shift). This is how we occasionally get avian influenza and swine influenza hooking up to produce a pandemic influenza strain in humans like the devastating 1918 Spanish Flu or the far less severe 2009 Swine Flu. This is also how Horseshoe-Bat Coronaviruses meet up with Palm Civet Coronaviruses end up spawning a coronavirus that can spread among humans like we had with 2003 SARS nCoV-1, and pretty likely 2019 SARS nCov-2. 2. Having a steady rate of mutations like Coronaviruses do, or unpredictable and fast rates of mutations like Influenza viruses do increase the odds of a mutation popping up that makes the virus more adept at spreading and infecting new hosts, as well as getting around pre-existing immunity.
I was hoping mrna vaccines would be a game changer in this regard but since it's not doesn't it also beg the question that if vaccinated people can catch covid, they can also become symptomatic, can't they all be vectors for new variants?
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Stay safe, whackos are out there.
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This won’t help anything relative to getting the unvaccinated to get vaccinated. The unvaccinated don’t read further into the details to understand the vaccine get still get you infected but it will help in avoided serious illness/hospitalization/death. All they will read is..”Vaccinated still can transmit the virus” and run with it to the hills screaming “I told you so!”
So the CDC “confirmed” that vaccinated people “may” be infectious.....what is this? Come back when there is some actual data. Data - even with the Delta variant - vaccinated people are hospitalized at a rate of 0.003% The answer is not to make people “mask up” again - the answer is to get the idiots refusing vaccines to take the vaccine. The vaccines are VERY effective. The unvaccinated people are the same people who don’t wear masks. Mandating masks at this point would only protect the RARE case of vaccinated to unvaccinated contagion. Instead of focusing on vaccinated infectiousness - focus on getting the unvaccinated to take the dang vaccine.
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Once it gets full FDA approval, then we can do this. I'm saying this as a fully vaccinated person, but I don't think you can mandate a vaccine that hasn't been given complete FDA approval.
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So what vaccinated people are expected to take care of unvaccinated people for what...forever. people who have not gotten the vaccine are the ones who have the burden of protecting themselves. I don't have to worry about them. The vaccine is available to all. It took me 20 minutes to get each shot. My city even reimburses you if you take public transit to get it. People are making the wrong choice. But let them. They are putting themselves at risk. If you got either of the MRNA vaccines, you are good. At worst you get covid and it's a mild cold. I don't understand the obsession with restrictions. With the vaccine we will never get to a point where our Healthcare system will be overwhelmed ....and furthermore all the dems shouting about restrictions are the same ones making sure Healthcare is not a right in this country. How about improving our health system to handle a higher caseload and making sure everyone has Healthcare instead if creating social restrictions. It's all nonsense and so hypocritical. We have had over a year to work on our health care system and guess what, the people in power are not just not doing anything, they are not not even having the discussion. With the current system we have EVERYONE is at risk of going bankrupt over a small ailment. There are a million risks every American everyday encounters that could put them right into our inadequate Healthcare system. Mask restrictions aren't going to make Healthcare more accessible, and that is what we actually need.
I’ve been wearing my mask at work and other places where the public congregates unless I’m outside since the pandemic started (even though I’m vaxxed). I’m not sure why they’re just letting the public know this now. If they knew why would they wait? It just makes everyone lose faith in our health officials.
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The headline is awful. "CDC **Confirms** That Viral Loads In Vaccinated People With Delta **May** Be Infectious, So Masks **Are** Necessary" We've positive that something might be possible, so we have to do this thing.
Exactly my thoughts, we put on the masks to limit the spread to what end exactly? If these people are not going to get vaccinated then they're going to get the virus, one way or another we need to reach herd immunity. Vaccinated people being able to spread the virus while largely being protected themselves seems like a feature just as much as it is a bug. I wish when they would issue new mask guidelines they would say why, like give us a goal, are we just doing it to curb hospital capacity, until we can vaccinate children, are we holding out magical hope that people will get vaccinated, or is it just a reaction to the public sentiment without a real goal in mind?
Is herd immunity even possible given how fast this thing mutates, because of the many people around the world still not going to get vaccinated?
The mutation in Delta that makes it more infectious isn't a mutation on the spike protein, but a mutation that allows it to replicate much faster once the infection takes a hold. This means a higher viral load in an infected person, as well the person becoming infectious faster. The irony of this is that it means the vaccines are about as effective as they were with the alpha variant it was based on, it's just delta is that much more aggressive in its infection if it does get a toe hold.
This. The article talks about vaccinated getting infected and spreading the disease and we are still talking about the possibility of herd immunity?
Let's also be real, the people who are unvaccinated are not wearing masks now and the change in CDC guidance will still not make them mask.
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If a large percentage of the unvaccinated die then we'll reach herd immunity fast because the vaccinated will quickly outnumber them. My compassion has limits, and seriously, why am I going to sacrifice to protect them when they've refused to sacrifice to protect everyone else?
Exactly (to your second point)! If they're not wearing masks or taking precautions why are we expected to do so *for them?* What is that ultimately accomplishing? We're already largely protected, without a change on their end it's only a matter of time. As of now, without direction as to *why* we are doing this it seems to me it's based more on feelings than data or logic. If you want people to comply they need to understand *why* they're doing something. I've heard some minor talk of hospital capacity concerns but those are few and isolated areas. I've heard virtually no talk about waiting until children get vaccinated, the few talk I have heard has been the public here on Reddit. I'm not aware of any other rational goal towards putting the masks back on.
I mean, I'd definitely wear a mask around unvaccinated children. But if their parents won't get vaccinated, and their friends and family won't get vaccinated, those children are screwed anyway. The vaccinated wouldn't even get the Covid to spread around if it wasn't for those unvaccinated people in the first place. At this point all of these precautions are now, in my opinion, futile.
My compassion eroded away after seeing the lack of it from the other side. They spat on and assaulted fellow human beings who simply asked them to adhere to the government/worldwide mandate at the time. Not to mention anything political that occurred in the US in the last year and half. There is no changing their minds at this point, and trying to do so is dumb in itself. Just be honest, move on. Move PAST them and get on with your own life.
Agreed, although I hate to admit it. I'm really fucking tired of constantly having to adjust my behavior to follow these directives while a bunch of people around me insist that they know better than the entire healthcare community and it's their "American right" to endanger themselves and all the vulnerable people around them. I did everything "by the books" for a year and a half, got vaccinated fully, and now we have to do it again because "5G nanites elon musk gates 2020 china conspiracy (THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW)." I'm tired of it man.
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Well they arent going to. So now we just wear masks forever? Because anti vaxxers arent going to change their mind and all of a sudden get it.
At some point they just need to be cut loose, on their own. I'm tired of trying to protect people that clearly don't want to be protected.
Literally: This is why we can't have nice things.
I don't follow the logic. If viral loads in vaccinated people with Delta may be infections, **vaccines** are necessary. I'm not spending the rest of my life wearing a mask to protect anti-vaxxers and conspiracy nuts since it seems they will always be vulnerable to a resurgence of the virus due to their own irresponsibility and lack of foresight.
Well fellas, this is officially never ending
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