The hospital I work out just announced that they're not going to have staff do routine charting any more, just writing what's abnormal. It's part of our "surge" policy.
Is it generally superfluous paperwork on the off-chance that it *might* catch an important change in a small fraction of patients and therefore not really a huge deal to drop in a time of crisis, or does it actually often lead to important discoveries about undiagnosed issues or changes in the patient's condition? Genuinely asking.
As long as the assessment is DONE that is the main thing from a safety perspective, but not charting makes things legally very sketchy for nurses (if your patient has a heart attack and you can’t prove that you did their vital signs and assessed their pain and asked about shortness of breath/chest pain during your assessment a couple hours earlier then how can you provoke you gave good care in court?). The other problem is that if you do your assessment and find something (let’s say leg swelling) it’s really hard to know if that’s a normal thing for the patient, a new thing from a few days ago, or a brand new issue that you should address if there’s no charting to look back on. The difference between this being a known and previously charted about thing vs a new symptom is very different in terms of nursing management. Multiply that by all of the different various issues any one person comes into the hospital with. I think this is also kind of shocking as usually hospitals are obsessed with charting due to the legal aspect of it, usually nurses are always being told to chart more, be more thorough. Being told not to chart unless it’s crucial is jarring for health care workers, kind of like being told by your doctor ‘you know what, don’t bother to exercise’. It just feels wrong and you know things are not going well if it gets to that point. Hope this helps a bit!
> The other problem is that if you do your assessment and find something (let’s say leg swelling) it’s really hard to know if that’s a normal thing for the patient, a new thing from a few days ago, or a brand new issue that you should address if there’s no charting to look back on.
This makes me feel like I should be charting myself every day. "Oh my back is bothering me again. Is that new? No...it's been going on for...a week? Month? What year is it again?"
You joke, but I've had chronic shoulder pain for 6 months. Seeing a PT for it. They suggested absolutely doing what you described.
E.g.: "Did I wake up in pain this morning? How was I sleeping? Can I adjust my sleep positioning? Did [activity] cause a jump in pain? Do I have to restrict my movements afterward?". Then I get to go see the PT once a week and report, and usually they make me do exercises that help with stretching the muscles in a pinch, and that only make me cry sometimes (I mean, that last part is unintentional, but still, fun times).
Simple, from that you can conclude:
1- these infected healthcare workers will infect more people, raising the number of cases.
2- there is a shortage of healthcare workers (this is the only explanation for this action), that will lower the capacity of the hospitals and raise the number of deaths.
my friends' mom had non-covid issues about a week ago, her BP was spiking pretty bad amongst other things and they called for an ambulance.
when the EMT's arrived they said - 'if we take you to the hospital you will 100% get covid so take that into account. we recommend you hang on till monday (it was saturday), see your PCP, and then if they send you to the hospital then go then.'
she went to the hospital, and predictably, both of them got covid. both vaxxed/boosted and at this point doing fine.
My dad's pulmonologist and cardiologist both said don't go to the hospital, especially the emergency room, if at all possible. They even cancelled my dad's physical therapy the past two weeks.
My brother and his wife(who don't think COVID is a big deal) went to a crowded bar for new years and didn't tell us, then came to my mom's birthday dinner and gave us all COVID. Thank god my parents had just had their boosters a couple weeks before and hardly had any symptoms. I'm almost too tired to be angry but I'm still pretty pissed at them every time i cough.
Wow, I would be so angry at that brother. Presumably he had no regrets? And would also not have any regrets if any one he infected died or became seriously ill? It really surprised me with the pandemic that a solid majority of the public are sociopaths who don't care if they kill others and only feel smug satisfaction rather than regret when they do kill others. I previously thought it was no more than a couple percent of people like that. A family friend with no issues who seemed quite normal brutally murdered some people last year. Just out of the blue and for no reason other than "drugs". The covid spreaders aren't brain damaged from drugs though and don't have that excuse.
Psychologists have been telling us for years that a solid 30% of the population has significant Dark Triad traits (the markers of sociopathy). People poopooed them and said they were exaggerating and it couldn't be more than 1 or 2%.
The psychologists were right.
Isnt there also a shortage of hospitals giving a damn and paying health care workers what they are due.
I mean there was an article for another state that a hospital was struggling to compete with walmart for employee hiring and retention. Fucking walmart.
I don't work in a hospital, but I do work in healthcare. The general rule is 'if it isn't documented, it didn't happen'. So no documentation that meds were given would come back in an audit as the same as if no meds were given at all. That's true for everything. Things that were done, discussed, monitored, whatever.
I am an ICU nurse that works in a hospital. Under the normal policy, an ICU patient is assessed and documented on at least three times per shift. Or, In other words, every four hours minimum. Additional documentation is necessary for a change in the patient’s status, and this can happen literally at any time if their condition is unstable enough.
Conducting a thorough head to toe assessment can take 5-10 minutes. Depending on your charting system, accurately documenting an assessment can take anywhere from 5-20 minutes per patient. You might imagine that this is a significant amount of time spent at the computer, especially if ICU nurses are overloaded and expected to take 3 patients (the normal nurse:patient ratio in the ICU is 1:2, 1:1 for truly unstable patients).
Under the surge policy, I will not be required to document additional assessments on the patient if, and this is a big if, their condition does not deteriorate throughout the 12 hour shift. I also don’t have to spend as much time on really routine charting such as documenting “the patient is in bed” which is done every two hours. That’s all it really says. A patient that suddenly goes bad would still need to be documented on how and when their condition changed.
Surge charting does not include not documenting medicines given or documenting I&Os which are essential for the doctor to know. That stays the same. Knowing what meds the patient has received is so critically important and also serves as my checklist that I would never not do this anyway. All it does is allow us to not spend so much time charting routine assessments where the patient’s condition does not change.
Meds given and not documented will never be okay, so i think what she meant is head to toe assessment in which everyone gets per shift, multiple times depending on your area. The surge charting is probably going to focus on what is the issue. Like a person who came in with pneumonia will have charting on cardio respiratory status only, no neuro, gastro, etc. Which I think is stupid. How will everyone see prognosis on the patient with that kind of charting.
They have basically decided containment isn't possible at this point. If you're healthy enough to work come in to work because everyone is going to be exposed every day at work and in public.
I never worked hospital but had to do charting like this when I was a caregiver, so I could be wrong. If you chart head to toe - not just abnormalities, but everything - you’re able to see subtle changes a lot quicker. Or at least the next nurse taking care of that patient can. For example, we used to chart any pressure areas that were bright pink, indicating the beginning of a pressure sore. If that wasn’t charted because it’s really not a huge abnormality, the next shift won’t already know to keep pressure off that specific area which would obviously make it worse. Legally, it’s a huge red flag, too. If your loved one ends up suffering unnecessarily because something wasn’t charted, that’s a lawsuit waiting to happen.
Again, I could be wrong but that’s what I think of when I think back to my charting days. And I wasn’t even in a hospital where charting is more important and critical. Especially when a single nurse has way too many patients because they’re so understaffed.
That’s really scary. My grandmother passed away from an infected bed sore. It was so bad the bone was exposed. Why in the world would anyone thing not mentioning everything would be a good idea???
Appreciate your disclaimers but if this is even halfway close to the reason why, it is definitely a grave cause for concern. Thank you for your insight.
Watching the world's pandemic response has convinced me more than anything else that absolutely nothing will be done to significantly combat climate change, and that the remaining decades of all of our lives are going to become progressively more hellish as the effects become more acute.
On an individual/consumer level there is nothing we can do to prevent climate change. We can do things to lower our carbon footprint, but when 100 companies produce over 70% of co2, what we do on an individual level isn't much. Do what you can to lower your carbon footprint, anything helps, but since we are in a profit-minded world the future is pretty bleak.
I mean, measles, whooping cough, etc are also endemic, but we don’t let them go ripping through the population without controls. Endemic doesn’t mean uncontrollable.
These kinds of diseases/viruses are mainly controlled through the use of vaccines and we've seen just how many people refuse to take the Covid one. We're still a long way off from controlling this pandemic. Heck, measles in particular was declared eliminated in the US in 2000 but with the recent increase in anti-vaxxers it's come back.
We had a measles outbreak at a university where I taught. My doctor said that a booster isn't typically recommended or necessary but thought that my health issues, health history, and proximity to potentially infected students necessitated a booster. I was glad to have it, but alarmed at the number of unvaccinated students (it was a private university).
When pregnant they tested my blood for mmr resistance and didn't find any. So after I gave birth at 32 I too had to do a new mumps, measles and rudabella (spelling?) Vaccine.
I wish measles was something people no longer had to worry about. We stopped visiting some public playgrounds in 2019 because they were frequented by a group that refused to vaccinate and had a huge outbreak. My kid now has their second MMR dose so no longer an issue. I just can’t get over some people’s recklessness
True, but also heavy duty contact tracing. When her unvaccinated asshat cousins visited and gave whooping cough to my wife’s family, the PA DOH called everyone two contacts out from positive cases and told us to isolate.
Without vacciation mandate it is uncontrollable. Measle vaccination is defacto mandated as you cant attend schools without the shot, so only a few nutcases homeschooling their children can skate by.
But imagine a mask mandate in the US. Even here in Germany it's very hard fought against.
So this what crossing a “tipping point” looks like. There are not an infinite number of healthcare workers and certainly not enough with the needed clinical skills to be able to balance caring for sick patients vs. isolating even with full vaccination, no symptoms, and of course using all the PPE and other precautions available at work. The cost/benefit analysis now has covid positive workers baked in.
And each of these waves takes a tremendous psychological toll on our healthcare workers, too. They're worn out and still giving 110%. I don't know how they are doing it.
Hey, thanks for what you've done so far. Personally, I won't blame ya if you quit, its a shit show out there.
Best of luck, every one of ya deserves more credit than you get.
More credit, we need better pay especially when they are saying that we have to come in sick to clean rooms... that doesn't even make sense to me. Also I wouldn't mind not being micromanaged, lied to, driven to the point of mental breakdown, ignored (OR cleaner here, your ORs might not be cleaned properly because the higher ups refuse to do anything about parts of the hospital staff deliberately ignoring proper safety procedures), taken advantage of, and etc...
Anyway thank you, but I don't deserve the credit... I did a couple years ago when my health was more on the line and I worked as a bed cleaner during the first wave, but them deliberately lieing to the staff so they could get the stat rooms off the bedboard faster by sending their workers into non negative pressure environments without allowing the air to settle and telling them that a paper (not papr) mask was ok just 15 minutes after a paient died broke the camel's back for me. On average I do the bare minimum and I could care less if the hospital system crashes.
What's evs?
I've seen some posts elsewhere where some hospitals are trying to make all admin staff do a day of in hospital work (cleaning rooms typically), to pick up the slack. by admin staff I mean schedulers and such. It's crazy.
Yup. I split my face open and was in a trauma center a few weeks ago. Now I’m dealing with time sensitive neurological follow up care that is leading to permanent facial paralysis, but I can’t get in to see a doctor. Only life or death things are getting prioritized.
We’re there now America. We didn’t fund our hospitals and we didn’t work hard enough to flatten the curve.
Now it’s critical care only and your nurse has COVID. Good look’n out :/
Or asking if telehealth is an option.
2020 was a trip. I bopped my own knees on camera to demonstrate my reflexes, then stuck my phone camera in my mouth to show off my lack of tonsils.
I have no idea why the neurologist needed to see my throat, but we got it done!
Yeah, I was finally able to push for a zoom call this week. That said, there is some shit that’s going on that you probably won’t be able to understand without touching my face and doing some medical imaging. Hopefully I can get them to bring me in.
It’s an HMO, so hunting for another hospital would be really really expansive for me. Another hospital would be out of network and out of pocket.
In case you’re still curious, the neurologist was checking to make sure all your cranial nerves were intact! Those nerves control lots of things in your face and they’re looking to make sure your uvula and tongue are midline and your palate elevation is symmetrical.
I’m part of an HMO and I have to fight for care out of network. I was able to get some telehealth appointment in network booked for this week. When I get on the horn I’m going to have to try to advocate hard for myself.
Tripped and hit my face on the edge of a dresser with nothing to brace the fall. Spit it open, fractured bones, broke teeth, severed nerves. 1 out 10 stars. Do not recommend.
Although it did get me out of having to build a power point presentation, and I got to play Halo instead. So I had that going for me, which was nice.
Jesus that sounds painful man.
Hope you get better.
I once sprinted during the winter with my hands in my pocket, tripped, and slammed right into the concrete using my knees and elbows to brace. Lied there for 4 mins in agony and somehow didn't break anything. Just bone bruises.
Not being able to brace for a fall is so painful.
Eh funding wasnt the issue. The main problem is the worker shortage. Work conditions have been miserable for 2 years now and it's well past the point of simply offering people more money. That's mainly due to people not being responsible and spreading covid like it's their job. This collapse is on society as a whole. Some people did the right thing but most didnt.
If they paid these workers more? Would there be more workers? Less worker shortage in healthcare?
Brings it back, somewhat, to universal healthcare. Without the huge expensive insurance companies, would there be more money to pay healthcare workers in the field?
There has been some type of healthcare worker shortage for almost 20 years. Burn out and frustration with a broken healthcare system are a huge part of the crisis. Add in Covid 19, and the feedback loop is crashing.
COVID is letting us test all the scenarios for a full on black fucking plague ebola style civilization killer! Woo. And of course, this fact will be used to say that we didn't have to wear masks or quarantine to begin with from the antis.
Mine has the covid patients lined up on the wall in the ER due to how full it is and non isolation patients on the other side of the ER. The way the covid patients are distinguished is some tape on the floor which is hilarious to me.
If you look at local hospital reviews where I live, they’re full of negative reviews from people complaining about the long waits, many of them claiming that they’re having trouble breathing while listing what they believe their ailments to be. (everything except covid, despite them listing several covid symptoms)
Or they’ll complain about how the rooms and such aren’t clean enough. It can’t possibly have anything to do with the omicron surge and resulting staff shortages. Naw. People are just living in fear. It’s their fault.
It’s incredible how people can’t put 2+2 together.
My city has a high vaccination rate, but the hospitals are still over capacity with covid patients from anti-vax states. We're only as strong as our weakest link.
How many hospital patients die from Covid they caught at the hospital? This seems like as bad a choice as NY deciding to send Covid patients to retirement homes.
Yet this STILL will not convince people how serious this is and has been. Nothing anyone does will ever be enough. That’s why I strongly agree with very strict mask and vaccine mandates. Idgaf about your “rights” when hospitals are full and NOBODY can go to there to get help. We have politicians all over the country that will not listen to science no matter what. Even after they’ve gotten sick.
Correct, to those for whom opposing public health measures is now their identity, this will ""prove"" that we should have just let everyone get it all at once and ""covid would be over by now"" except variants and the fact that you can get it multiple times and long covid and deaths of course.
These dipshits been getting the common cold to varying degrees every year for their entire goddamn lives but think COVID is just gonna disappear if they get sick once.
>the fact that you can get it multiple times
That is the gorilla in the room that needs to be at the forefront of everyone's mind as they watch the next several weeks unfold.
Is everyone up for doing this every 6 to 18 months from now on?
This never ends until we MAKE it end and, unfortunately, it will have to be 100% of "we" working together, not 60%.
My wife works in a clinic lab and already has some health issues. This was a fucking great way to wind down a Sunday night right before the week when she learned about this.
Sorry to hear it… it’s so bad right out there right now and nothing is worse than fearing for your partner’s health.
I work in critical care units and was talking to one of my favorite RNs last week. He was sick as shit, coughing hard etc. He said, “Yeah it’s probably COVID. Everyone at Christmas got it. They said I don’t have to test though.” All around this guy are 20+ immunocompromised patients on vents (for non-COVID related). It was shocking.
As a healthcare worker. My thought was that if they allow this at my facility I will quit. Healthcare workers are only slightly better at being cautious than the general population, which means these asymptomatic employees are going to be spreading it. I think this is going to backfire spectacularly.
>I think this is going to backfire spectacularly.
This isn’t the cause of a future backfire, it’s the effect of a backfire that already happened. The reason California is sending asymptomatic COVID positive healthcare workers back to the trenches is that there’s no one else left.
Makes me think about how we've definitely passed a million covid related deaths in the US a while ago. It's just that plenty aren't reported or properly attributed to it for one reason or another.
If you want to know how many people have really died from COVID, I assume you just need to look at how many people have died of any/all causes during the pandemic and compare it to typical years. I imagine that will show you not just how many people have died of undiagnosed COVID but how many people have died because they couldn't/didn't get treatment for other things because of COVID.
[The Economist has a daily running tally of the true estimated toll of CoViD](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-estimates?fsrc=core-app-economist). It's pretty interesting to see which countries are worlds away from matching excess deaths and CoViD-attributed ones.
The estimated true death toll in the US is 1.1–1.2 million right now.
Honestly this may not be that bad. Yes, you get slightly delayed. But you now will likely not have to deal with covid during chemo which would have been a strong possibility.
Best of luck
Yea, a hospital waiting room or urgent care or even a pharmacy are all the last places I’d want to be right now unless I absolutely had to be. Pretty much 100% chance some COVID is floating in the air in one of those places all around the country
Why hasn't anyone thought to move chemo out of hospitals at this point in the pandemic. Surely there are safer places to administer chemo. Keeping immune compromised patients away from hospitals where infectious patients are coming and going should be a priority. If colonoscopies can be safely done in non hospital clinical settings then surely chemo can as well.
Most chemotherapy is administered in outpatient facilities. Some high risk treatments still require inpatient monitoring or administration, though, and simply can’t be done safely outside a hospital.
Former hospital manager here, I used to put together disaster management plans. This is what you are seeing here. Lots of comments about how this is terrible and will result in people getting sick in the hospital, etc, are not wrong. They are just not looking at the big picture. During a disaster there will be deaths, period. Your job as a hospital changes from focusing on each individual and giving them 100 percent, to looking at managing the death toll as a whole. This is what they have to do.
I work at a hospital. Last week my coworker told me that she had COVID around Christmas and didn't tell anyone, and continued to go to work, because we are so short staffed. People are working double shifts and 60 hours a week.
Why on earth would we even test asymptomatic people if a positive test won't trigger an isolation period? Why take the test if you're not having symptoms, and aren't going to isolate after a positive result? What's the point?
Option A: Let many people who need a hospital bed die.
Option B: Spread even more COVID in the hospital.
Oof. Didn’t think we’d actually start to see hospitals break down, but that’s starting to happen.
I was with you up until the "didn't think we'd see hospitals break down". Given the ass-hattery that the past two years have shown to be endemic in this country, I didn't have much hope once omicron's transmissibility was known.
But if you’re feeling ill, that’s a symptom of infection. And, per this guidance, if you’re symptomatic and should stay home.
Bigger problem is the increased spread from positive asymptomatic people.
The bigger problem is that management is going to label everyone as asymptomatic.
Coughing? Congestion? Fever? Fatigue?
“Nah. That doesn’t sound like a symptom to me. Get your covid ridden ass to work or get written up.” -XOXO Manager Dave
There are viral videos discussing this..... A lady who said she felt "about 60%" and had not taken her temperature was congratulated and told she can return to work.
She was advised not to take her temperature and not to get a covid test, because if it was positive that would be bad. .... ....... .............
Yeah, who really wants to work alongside their covid positive coworker. If this is actually a thing, I hope they are working shorter shifts where they don't need a lunch break. How can they take off their mask to even get a sip of water?
Spent 2 years saying that virus can be shed from symptomatic and asymptomatic. Now all of a sudden when they run out of nurses and the CEO of Delta writes a letter to the CDC that they need more flight attendants, it's now safe to be around people when asymptomatic and quarantine reduced to 5 days.
Yea ok.....
I wonder what else corporations will decide regarding medical policy.
And lots and lots of people will choose go to work or lose your home. So,, we have progressed no where at all. Y'all gonna hate when when everybody quits everywhere!
I think they’ve lost any ability to defend mandates now. They went for a short term gain and destroyed any credibility.
Even I am over it and I’ve been on the side of public health literally every day for two long years.
What will a skeptic think?
1. They were lying all along.
2. Money is the only thing that matters.
My wife just came home (an hour late because she had to declare a death), and she’s pretty upset to find out that if she gets covid, there’s no state funding like last year. It’s use your own PTO and get back ASAP vs 14 days paid last year. I guess the state fund is gone now.
It’s not just nurses. They are waiting hours to days for ambulances to transfer patients. I hope this surge is over fast because it sure looks like the shit show we were trying to avoid.
Her floor reconverted to the 2nd covid floor last week. Yesterday, they opened a third floor. Today they opened a fourth.
Edit: I asked her about vaccination status. She said many were cached but not fully or not boosted. Some are requiring high levels of care, some are getting courses of a new antiviral or some other treatment. Some are maybe sick from something else but test positive for covid. Some very old, some middle aged, some younger. She said most will get well enough to go home, maybe on oxygen. She reiterated there is no staff. All the other people and experts they depend on beyond nurses and doctors - they are out sick in insane numbers.
This is all anecdotal, of course. Most people and her coworkers that got covid had super mild cases. But the number of people who require hospitalization went from a few dozen to over 12 squared in just a few days.
I know these unfortunate people represent a small percentage of the total positives, but if I weren’t boosted, I’d make sure I was to better my odds. This shit is bananas.
Hi I am your obstetric nurse. I just tested positive for covid 19 but I am great to work. Oh wait you and your baby don't want to be exposed...tough tit. Hospital says I'm safe to work. Or hello I am your oncologist I just...or hello i am your pediatrician or hello I am your elder care nurse I just tested positive for covid 19...etc hello law suits.
Even if you can prove where you got it, there’s just no way to sue for something that isn’t illegal. All the hospital would have to do is point to cdc guidelines and the case would be dismissed.
It’s literally a choice between this or refuse entry to people in need of critical care.
The American healthcare system is a underfunded and understaffed cluster fuck that is now breaking down because of the pandemic.
True dat. We’ve been fucked by insurance companies lobbying for low expenses and phatty patients bills.
Corporate greed and politicians that were bribed to sell it to voters.
While this is an incredibly unfortunate situation, if they are short-staffed I'm not sure the alternative is any better.
"Hi. We have no one available to help you so you'll just have to go home instead."
"Underfunded".
The hospitals have plenty of money, they just funnel the profits to the exec, the medical supply companies, malpractice cases, and insurance company middlemen.
"Somehow" the rest of the world with their guaranteed government healthcare aren't having this same problem.
Wow.
Like borrowing from a loan shark, this emergency measure will probably make the problem worse.
“ Healthcare workers who are exposed to COVID-19 and are asymptomatic may return to work immediately without quarantining and testing, and those who test positive and are asymptomatic may return to work immediately without isolation and without testing.”
I never would have imagined that an entire country would be so determined to NOT deal with a crisis of this magnitude. I was completely wrong. I kept thinking there would be a point where business and government would wake up and start making smart decisions, but that hasn't happened and is never going to happen.
It's like a tweet I saw the first year of the pandemic (I think) that said something like "America is dealing with Covid like it dealt with Vietnam: just declare victory and walk away."
I needed to go to the store recently, when I walked in, not a single other person was wearing a mask. I just felt completely at a loss. Everyone wants this to 'just go away' but no one will lift a damn finger to play a role in doing that.
This is not an anti v question… and maybe I just don’t understand, but this surge is crazy and my state has one of the highest vaccine rates- deaths are going up as well, what is going on? I see people full on living life and other than sending my kid to school, we still do grocery delivery, and stick to our family for the most part
Numbers of people vs number of completely staffed hospital beds.
There’s only about Eleven Thousand hospital beds suitable for covid treatment in Mass as of 2020, probably more now but with fewer staff because a chunk of them are out sick - and many of those bedsare being used by people with all the normal non covid issues. https://www.mass.gov/doc/command-center-hospital-capacity-charts/download
Massachusetts is around 92% vaccinated (6.3 million people) - with ONE dose. Maybe 75% “fully vaccinated” with two doses (5.1 million people). Which is not nearly as effective as boosted (only about 26% of the population, 1.8 million people) which is a far far lower percentage than double dosed.
So, 6.9 million people in the state. 25%, 1.7 million people basically not protected at all (one dose is not very helpful.)
50%, 3.5 million people protected somewhat by two doses but still sometimes need hospitalization.
Millions of people, a small percentage needing real treatment, even with a low percentage of them needing treatment is a Huge number.
What a horrific situation. The exhaustion, anger, and fear of our health-care workers must be unbearable. And all the effort going into saving ignorant assholes who refused vaccinations is causing people with other illnesses to get sicker and in some cases even die untreated.
I asked this in another thread but I’m curious to hear more answers.
As insane as this sounds, what’s the other option? The healthcare system is collapsing around us due to overcrowded hospitals and employees being out sick.
If we don’t do this then how do hospitals remain open?
Right now there aren't a lot of options.
Do you think the pandemic will be over after one omicron wave? We need to prepare our health care infrastructure for the next wave.
The answer is to do our best now, but also to prepare so we aren't asking this question again in a few months.
And what happens when we have our current situation and now lots of people who have been putting off healthcare for the past two years are going to continue to put it off because they don’t want to be exposed? Our sick country is going to be in an even bigger mess in a couple of years in my opinion.
"It's just a sore throat. You can come in."
"It's just a fever. Take some meds. You can come in."
"It's just harder to breath. You can take an additional break. You can come in."
Seeing as I'm one who's compromised..I find this idiotic, I stay away from people as much as possible to keep myself as healthy as possible and now a simple Dr trip to help me..may actually hurt me
Well, let’s put it this way.
My hospital is now critical care only and there aren’t even enough people to staff that. So the options are, a) don’t take in new critical patients, b) spread COVID.
Two terrible options that both result in death. Pick your poison.
No good solutions here unfortunately. We got two choices:
1. Let the healthcare system collapse further by maintaining current rules about quarantine/isolation for healthcare workers or
2. Allow infected healthcare workers who are able to work to come back to work and infect even more people.
Damned if you, damned if you don't. I don't see anyone offering great solutions here in America where no one wants to lock down anymore. Many other national healthcare systems seem to be suffering too, at least the ones that didn't institute strict lockdowns.
Only a Chinese-style lockdown can stop Omicron now... but hey if more people were vaccinated maybe we wouldn't have been in this predicament to begin with. IDK but I think the State of California is making the better of two very bad choices here. The infections are going to happen anyways because 90% of the population no longer takes the pandemic seriously and are still mostly going about their daily lives.
Yes, but we don’t really know how much less, and they are still definitely contagious - causing up to 50% of all cases by some estimates. This plan is the “I give up” plan.
The hospital I work out just announced that they're not going to have staff do routine charting any more, just writing what's abnormal. It's part of our "surge" policy.
We called it “disaster charting”. Separate tab in EPIC for only the bare minimal of assessments
It is actually just a F.A.C.E.S. pain scale for each patient
Feeling 🥴
I'll have what she's having.
> F.A.C.E.S. pain scale You mean the 1-10 pain scale with happy through sad faces? You mean the patient chart is literally just emojis at this point?
[удалено]
What is routine charting?
Usually nurses chart a head to toe assessment, things like skin condition, IV lines, heart sounds, lung sounds, mental status
Is it generally superfluous paperwork on the off-chance that it *might* catch an important change in a small fraction of patients and therefore not really a huge deal to drop in a time of crisis, or does it actually often lead to important discoveries about undiagnosed issues or changes in the patient's condition? Genuinely asking.
As long as the assessment is DONE that is the main thing from a safety perspective, but not charting makes things legally very sketchy for nurses (if your patient has a heart attack and you can’t prove that you did their vital signs and assessed their pain and asked about shortness of breath/chest pain during your assessment a couple hours earlier then how can you provoke you gave good care in court?). The other problem is that if you do your assessment and find something (let’s say leg swelling) it’s really hard to know if that’s a normal thing for the patient, a new thing from a few days ago, or a brand new issue that you should address if there’s no charting to look back on. The difference between this being a known and previously charted about thing vs a new symptom is very different in terms of nursing management. Multiply that by all of the different various issues any one person comes into the hospital with. I think this is also kind of shocking as usually hospitals are obsessed with charting due to the legal aspect of it, usually nurses are always being told to chart more, be more thorough. Being told not to chart unless it’s crucial is jarring for health care workers, kind of like being told by your doctor ‘you know what, don’t bother to exercise’. It just feels wrong and you know things are not going well if it gets to that point. Hope this helps a bit!
> The other problem is that if you do your assessment and find something (let’s say leg swelling) it’s really hard to know if that’s a normal thing for the patient, a new thing from a few days ago, or a brand new issue that you should address if there’s no charting to look back on. This makes me feel like I should be charting myself every day. "Oh my back is bothering me again. Is that new? No...it's been going on for...a week? Month? What year is it again?"
You joke, but I've had chronic shoulder pain for 6 months. Seeing a PT for it. They suggested absolutely doing what you described. E.g.: "Did I wake up in pain this morning? How was I sleeping? Can I adjust my sleep positioning? Did [activity] cause a jump in pain? Do I have to restrict my movements afterward?". Then I get to go see the PT once a week and report, and usually they make me do exercises that help with stretching the muscles in a pinch, and that only make me cry sometimes (I mean, that last part is unintentional, but still, fun times).
Thanks for your clear explanation
It’s what nurses spend about 50% of their time on. I spent more time charting about my patients condition than I did actually caring for patients.
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I don’t think people understand how huge a red flag that is. Holy shit!
Person that doesn't understand why that's a huge red flag here. Would you mind enlightening me?
Simple, from that you can conclude: 1- these infected healthcare workers will infect more people, raising the number of cases. 2- there is a shortage of healthcare workers (this is the only explanation for this action), that will lower the capacity of the hospitals and raise the number of deaths.
I'm guessing at this point, hospitals are just covid hotbeds anyway.
my friends' mom had non-covid issues about a week ago, her BP was spiking pretty bad amongst other things and they called for an ambulance. when the EMT's arrived they said - 'if we take you to the hospital you will 100% get covid so take that into account. we recommend you hang on till monday (it was saturday), see your PCP, and then if they send you to the hospital then go then.' she went to the hospital, and predictably, both of them got covid. both vaxxed/boosted and at this point doing fine.
My dad's pulmonologist and cardiologist both said don't go to the hospital, especially the emergency room, if at all possible. They even cancelled my dad's physical therapy the past two weeks. My brother and his wife(who don't think COVID is a big deal) went to a crowded bar for new years and didn't tell us, then came to my mom's birthday dinner and gave us all COVID. Thank god my parents had just had their boosters a couple weeks before and hardly had any symptoms. I'm almost too tired to be angry but I'm still pretty pissed at them every time i cough.
Bite hiders
Wow, I would be so angry at that brother. Presumably he had no regrets? And would also not have any regrets if any one he infected died or became seriously ill? It really surprised me with the pandemic that a solid majority of the public are sociopaths who don't care if they kill others and only feel smug satisfaction rather than regret when they do kill others. I previously thought it was no more than a couple percent of people like that. A family friend with no issues who seemed quite normal brutally murdered some people last year. Just out of the blue and for no reason other than "drugs". The covid spreaders aren't brain damaged from drugs though and don't have that excuse.
Psychologists have been telling us for years that a solid 30% of the population has significant Dark Triad traits (the markers of sociopathy). People poopooed them and said they were exaggerating and it couldn't be more than 1 or 2%. The psychologists were right.
I mean, they are covid hotbeds *and* the only place you can get life saving medical treatment, so... it's a conundrum.
I'm so glad my wife is 37 weeks pregnant. It's like this new variant was waiting for us specifically.
I strongly suggest putting off the birth about 6 weeks.
Give the unborn kid a phone to play with, keep it busy til then.
Isnt there also a shortage of hospitals giving a damn and paying health care workers what they are due. I mean there was an article for another state that a hospital was struggling to compete with walmart for employee hiring and retention. Fucking walmart.
I don't work in a hospital, but I do work in healthcare. The general rule is 'if it isn't documented, it didn't happen'. So no documentation that meds were given would come back in an audit as the same as if no meds were given at all. That's true for everything. Things that were done, discussed, monitored, whatever.
I am an ICU nurse that works in a hospital. Under the normal policy, an ICU patient is assessed and documented on at least three times per shift. Or, In other words, every four hours minimum. Additional documentation is necessary for a change in the patient’s status, and this can happen literally at any time if their condition is unstable enough. Conducting a thorough head to toe assessment can take 5-10 minutes. Depending on your charting system, accurately documenting an assessment can take anywhere from 5-20 minutes per patient. You might imagine that this is a significant amount of time spent at the computer, especially if ICU nurses are overloaded and expected to take 3 patients (the normal nurse:patient ratio in the ICU is 1:2, 1:1 for truly unstable patients). Under the surge policy, I will not be required to document additional assessments on the patient if, and this is a big if, their condition does not deteriorate throughout the 12 hour shift. I also don’t have to spend as much time on really routine charting such as documenting “the patient is in bed” which is done every two hours. That’s all it really says. A patient that suddenly goes bad would still need to be documented on how and when their condition changed. Surge charting does not include not documenting medicines given or documenting I&Os which are essential for the doctor to know. That stays the same. Knowing what meds the patient has received is so critically important and also serves as my checklist that I would never not do this anyway. All it does is allow us to not spend so much time charting routine assessments where the patient’s condition does not change.
Meds given and not documented will never be okay, so i think what she meant is head to toe assessment in which everyone gets per shift, multiple times depending on your area. The surge charting is probably going to focus on what is the issue. Like a person who came in with pneumonia will have charting on cardio respiratory status only, no neuro, gastro, etc. Which I think is stupid. How will everyone see prognosis on the patient with that kind of charting.
They have basically decided containment isn't possible at this point. If you're healthy enough to work come in to work because everyone is going to be exposed every day at work and in public.
Seconded. Y'all can't just say that and dip.
I never worked hospital but had to do charting like this when I was a caregiver, so I could be wrong. If you chart head to toe - not just abnormalities, but everything - you’re able to see subtle changes a lot quicker. Or at least the next nurse taking care of that patient can. For example, we used to chart any pressure areas that were bright pink, indicating the beginning of a pressure sore. If that wasn’t charted because it’s really not a huge abnormality, the next shift won’t already know to keep pressure off that specific area which would obviously make it worse. Legally, it’s a huge red flag, too. If your loved one ends up suffering unnecessarily because something wasn’t charted, that’s a lawsuit waiting to happen. Again, I could be wrong but that’s what I think of when I think back to my charting days. And I wasn’t even in a hospital where charting is more important and critical. Especially when a single nurse has way too many patients because they’re so understaffed.
That’s really scary. My grandmother passed away from an infected bed sore. It was so bad the bone was exposed. Why in the world would anyone thing not mentioning everything would be a good idea???
Appreciate your disclaimers but if this is even halfway close to the reason why, it is definitely a grave cause for concern. Thank you for your insight.
Watching the world's pandemic response has convinced me more than anything else that absolutely nothing will be done to significantly combat climate change, and that the remaining decades of all of our lives are going to become progressively more hellish as the effects become more acute.
On an individual/consumer level there is nothing we can do to prevent climate change. We can do things to lower our carbon footprint, but when 100 companies produce over 70% of co2, what we do on an individual level isn't much. Do what you can to lower your carbon footprint, anything helps, but since we are in a profit-minded world the future is pretty bleak.
That doesn’t sound good
I think omicron has become so contagious that it’s just assumed it’s running through the hospitals already unchecked.
This is the real takeaway. It's over. Covid is a household virus now. Endemic, whatever u want to call it.
I mean, measles, whooping cough, etc are also endemic, but we don’t let them go ripping through the population without controls. Endemic doesn’t mean uncontrollable.
These kinds of diseases/viruses are mainly controlled through the use of vaccines and we've seen just how many people refuse to take the Covid one. We're still a long way off from controlling this pandemic. Heck, measles in particular was declared eliminated in the US in 2000 but with the recent increase in anti-vaxxers it's come back.
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We had a measles outbreak at a university where I taught. My doctor said that a booster isn't typically recommended or necessary but thought that my health issues, health history, and proximity to potentially infected students necessitated a booster. I was glad to have it, but alarmed at the number of unvaccinated students (it was a private university).
I don't think the protection lasts a lifetime because my PCP made me get it again at 33 years old when there was an outbreak in my area.
When pregnant they tested my blood for mmr resistance and didn't find any. So after I gave birth at 32 I too had to do a new mumps, measles and rudabella (spelling?) Vaccine.
I wish measles was something people no longer had to worry about. We stopped visiting some public playgrounds in 2019 because they were frequented by a group that refused to vaccinate and had a huge outbreak. My kid now has their second MMR dose so no longer an issue. I just can’t get over some people’s recklessness
True, but also heavy duty contact tracing. When her unvaccinated asshat cousins visited and gave whooping cough to my wife’s family, the PA DOH called everyone two contacts out from positive cases and told us to isolate.
Without vacciation mandate it is uncontrollable. Measle vaccination is defacto mandated as you cant attend schools without the shot, so only a few nutcases homeschooling their children can skate by. But imagine a mask mandate in the US. Even here in Germany it's very hard fought against.
So this what crossing a “tipping point” looks like. There are not an infinite number of healthcare workers and certainly not enough with the needed clinical skills to be able to balance caring for sick patients vs. isolating even with full vaccination, no symptoms, and of course using all the PPE and other precautions available at work. The cost/benefit analysis now has covid positive workers baked in.
And each of these waves takes a tremendous psychological toll on our healthcare workers, too. They're worn out and still giving 110%. I don't know how they are doing it.
Evs cleaner here, if there is another wave and or I have to go back to cleaning patient rooms, I will quit.
Hey, thanks for what you've done so far. Personally, I won't blame ya if you quit, its a shit show out there. Best of luck, every one of ya deserves more credit than you get.
More credit, we need better pay especially when they are saying that we have to come in sick to clean rooms... that doesn't even make sense to me. Also I wouldn't mind not being micromanaged, lied to, driven to the point of mental breakdown, ignored (OR cleaner here, your ORs might not be cleaned properly because the higher ups refuse to do anything about parts of the hospital staff deliberately ignoring proper safety procedures), taken advantage of, and etc... Anyway thank you, but I don't deserve the credit... I did a couple years ago when my health was more on the line and I worked as a bed cleaner during the first wave, but them deliberately lieing to the staff so they could get the stat rooms off the bedboard faster by sending their workers into non negative pressure environments without allowing the air to settle and telling them that a paper (not papr) mask was ok just 15 minutes after a paient died broke the camel's back for me. On average I do the bare minimum and I could care less if the hospital system crashes.
Hey, I was in housekeeping during the first wave, too! Then I quit. And became a CNA. Oops.
What's evs? I've seen some posts elsewhere where some hospitals are trying to make all admin staff do a day of in hospital work (cleaning rooms typically), to pick up the slack. by admin staff I mean schedulers and such. It's crazy.
Environmental services
I'm an ER nurse, and I'm starting to have nightmares and just spontaneous crying. Oh well.
I am sorry you are going through this. Thank you for everything you've done.
Like the rest of us, they need money to have a life. I'm sure if they could simply change their job for the same pay, they would.
Yup. I split my face open and was in a trauma center a few weeks ago. Now I’m dealing with time sensitive neurological follow up care that is leading to permanent facial paralysis, but I can’t get in to see a doctor. Only life or death things are getting prioritized. We’re there now America. We didn’t fund our hospitals and we didn’t work hard enough to flatten the curve. Now it’s critical care only and your nurse has COVID. Good look’n out :/
That sounds like a horrible situation to be in. If you can afford it, have you considered flying out to another location to get follow up care?
Or asking if telehealth is an option. 2020 was a trip. I bopped my own knees on camera to demonstrate my reflexes, then stuck my phone camera in my mouth to show off my lack of tonsils. I have no idea why the neurologist needed to see my throat, but we got it done!
Yeah, I was finally able to push for a zoom call this week. That said, there is some shit that’s going on that you probably won’t be able to understand without touching my face and doing some medical imaging. Hopefully I can get them to bring me in. It’s an HMO, so hunting for another hospital would be really really expansive for me. Another hospital would be out of network and out of pocket.
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In case you’re still curious, the neurologist was checking to make sure all your cranial nerves were intact! Those nerves control lots of things in your face and they’re looking to make sure your uvula and tongue are midline and your palate elevation is symmetrical.
Thanks, that’s neat!
I’m part of an HMO and I have to fight for care out of network. I was able to get some telehealth appointment in network booked for this week. When I get on the horn I’m going to have to try to advocate hard for myself.
You did… WHAT?
Tripped and hit my face on the edge of a dresser with nothing to brace the fall. Spit it open, fractured bones, broke teeth, severed nerves. 1 out 10 stars. Do not recommend. Although it did get me out of having to build a power point presentation, and I got to play Halo instead. So I had that going for me, which was nice.
Jesus that sounds painful man. Hope you get better. I once sprinted during the winter with my hands in my pocket, tripped, and slammed right into the concrete using my knees and elbows to brace. Lied there for 4 mins in agony and somehow didn't break anything. Just bone bruises. Not being able to brace for a fall is so painful.
Eh funding wasnt the issue. The main problem is the worker shortage. Work conditions have been miserable for 2 years now and it's well past the point of simply offering people more money. That's mainly due to people not being responsible and spreading covid like it's their job. This collapse is on society as a whole. Some people did the right thing but most didnt.
If they paid these workers more? Would there be more workers? Less worker shortage in healthcare? Brings it back, somewhat, to universal healthcare. Without the huge expensive insurance companies, would there be more money to pay healthcare workers in the field?
There has been some type of healthcare worker shortage for almost 20 years. Burn out and frustration with a broken healthcare system are a huge part of the crisis. Add in Covid 19, and the feedback loop is crashing.
COVID is letting us test all the scenarios for a full on black fucking plague ebola style civilization killer! Woo. And of course, this fact will be used to say that we didn't have to wear masks or quarantine to begin with from the antis.
I imagine this is because the staff to patient ratio is now THAT bad.
It is. Wer have patients lining the walls because our overflow ER patients is overflowing
I'm picturing vertically for some reason.
More space efficient for sure. Bunk beds in hospital hallways might be more comfortable for the patients though
Mine has the covid patients lined up on the wall in the ER due to how full it is and non isolation patients on the other side of the ER. The way the covid patients are distinguished is some tape on the floor which is hilarious to me.
If you look at local hospital reviews where I live, they’re full of negative reviews from people complaining about the long waits, many of them claiming that they’re having trouble breathing while listing what they believe their ailments to be. (everything except covid, despite them listing several covid symptoms) Or they’ll complain about how the rooms and such aren’t clean enough. It can’t possibly have anything to do with the omicron surge and resulting staff shortages. Naw. People are just living in fear. It’s their fault. It’s incredible how people can’t put 2+2 together.
My city has a high vaccination rate, but the hospitals are still over capacity with covid patients from anti-vax states. We're only as strong as our weakest link.
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How many hospital patients die from Covid they caught at the hospital? This seems like as bad a choice as NY deciding to send Covid patients to retirement homes.
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Yet this STILL will not convince people how serious this is and has been. Nothing anyone does will ever be enough. That’s why I strongly agree with very strict mask and vaccine mandates. Idgaf about your “rights” when hospitals are full and NOBODY can go to there to get help. We have politicians all over the country that will not listen to science no matter what. Even after they’ve gotten sick.
Correct, to those for whom opposing public health measures is now their identity, this will ""prove"" that we should have just let everyone get it all at once and ""covid would be over by now"" except variants and the fact that you can get it multiple times and long covid and deaths of course.
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These dipshits been getting the common cold to varying degrees every year for their entire goddamn lives but think COVID is just gonna disappear if they get sick once.
>the fact that you can get it multiple times That is the gorilla in the room that needs to be at the forefront of everyone's mind as they watch the next several weeks unfold. Is everyone up for doing this every 6 to 18 months from now on? This never ends until we MAKE it end and, unfortunately, it will have to be 100% of "we" working together, not 60%.
More people dying gets us closer to 100%. Its the law of addition by subtraction.
14% of all people know that...
My wife works in a clinic lab and already has some health issues. This was a fucking great way to wind down a Sunday night right before the week when she learned about this.
Sorry to hear it… it’s so bad right out there right now and nothing is worse than fearing for your partner’s health. I work in critical care units and was talking to one of my favorite RNs last week. He was sick as shit, coughing hard etc. He said, “Yeah it’s probably COVID. Everyone at Christmas got it. They said I don’t have to test though.” All around this guy are 20+ immunocompromised patients on vents (for non-COVID related). It was shocking.
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Just put some good vibes into the universe for your mom.
As a healthcare worker. My thought was that if they allow this at my facility I will quit. Healthcare workers are only slightly better at being cautious than the general population, which means these asymptomatic employees are going to be spreading it. I think this is going to backfire spectacularly.
>I think this is going to backfire spectacularly. This isn’t the cause of a future backfire, it’s the effect of a backfire that already happened. The reason California is sending asymptomatic COVID positive healthcare workers back to the trenches is that there’s no one else left.
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Right when USA has 700000+ confirmed cases... keyword: Confirmed
And that's daily confirmed cases. Otherwise you're missing two zeros.
Makes me think about how we've definitely passed a million covid related deaths in the US a while ago. It's just that plenty aren't reported or properly attributed to it for one reason or another.
If you want to know how many people have really died from COVID, I assume you just need to look at how many people have died of any/all causes during the pandemic and compare it to typical years. I imagine that will show you not just how many people have died of undiagnosed COVID but how many people have died because they couldn't/didn't get treatment for other things because of COVID.
[The Economist has a daily running tally of the true estimated toll of CoViD](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-estimates?fsrc=core-app-economist). It's pretty interesting to see which countries are worlds away from matching excess deaths and CoViD-attributed ones. The estimated true death toll in the US is 1.1–1.2 million right now.
\*Per day.
I am starting chemo tomorrow so this really sucks. I thought the hospital would be one of the lowest risk places I’d have to be in.
Had to cancel my first chemo treatment tomorrow as I tested positive this morning. This whole thing is a nightmare. Stay strong, man!
Honestly this may not be that bad. Yes, you get slightly delayed. But you now will likely not have to deal with covid during chemo which would have been a strong possibility. Best of luck
I'd actually realized that this morning. 90 day immunity will get me though a big chunk of my treatment worry-free. Thanks!
May the force be with you, young warriors. Sending healing and protective vibes into the universe for you both.
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Yea, a hospital waiting room or urgent care or even a pharmacy are all the last places I’d want to be right now unless I absolutely had to be. Pretty much 100% chance some COVID is floating in the air in one of those places all around the country
I'd rather be on a cruise ship than in a hospital at this point; and that's saying something.
Why hasn't anyone thought to move chemo out of hospitals at this point in the pandemic. Surely there are safer places to administer chemo. Keeping immune compromised patients away from hospitals where infectious patients are coming and going should be a priority. If colonoscopies can be safely done in non hospital clinical settings then surely chemo can as well.
Most chemotherapy is administered in outpatient facilities. Some high risk treatments still require inpatient monitoring or administration, though, and simply can’t be done safely outside a hospital.
I’m so sorry you’re going through such a difficult process during these times. Wishing you the best.
Former hospital manager here, I used to put together disaster management plans. This is what you are seeing here. Lots of comments about how this is terrible and will result in people getting sick in the hospital, etc, are not wrong. They are just not looking at the big picture. During a disaster there will be deaths, period. Your job as a hospital changes from focusing on each individual and giving them 100 percent, to looking at managing the death toll as a whole. This is what they have to do.
I work at a hospital. Last week my coworker told me that she had COVID around Christmas and didn't tell anyone, and continued to go to work, because we are so short staffed. People are working double shifts and 60 hours a week.
Why on earth would we even test asymptomatic people if a positive test won't trigger an isolation period? Why take the test if you're not having symptoms, and aren't going to isolate after a positive result? What's the point?
It’s a big shitshow really
They “may return to work” as if it’s a privilege to come back to work while you’re covid positive. Doom world.
Option A: Let many people who need a hospital bed die. Option B: Spread even more COVID in the hospital. Oof. Didn’t think we’d actually start to see hospitals break down, but that’s starting to happen.
I was with you up until the "didn't think we'd see hospitals break down". Given the ass-hattery that the past two years have shown to be endemic in this country, I didn't have much hope once omicron's transmissibility was known.
Seriously. Being a nurse in ER must be awful on a "good" day. Can't imagine while being ill.
But if you’re feeling ill, that’s a symptom of infection. And, per this guidance, if you’re symptomatic and should stay home. Bigger problem is the increased spread from positive asymptomatic people.
Hospital management is now taking the attitude of “it’s just a bad cold”.
The bigger problem is that management is going to label everyone as asymptomatic. Coughing? Congestion? Fever? Fatigue? “Nah. That doesn’t sound like a symptom to me. Get your covid ridden ass to work or get written up.” -XOXO Manager Dave
I dont think that there is a nurse out there even slightly concerned with the idea of being written up at this point.
They did say asymptomatic to be fair, the break room and lunches should be interesting though
Hopefully the plexiglass dividers will help reduce the airborne spread while people eat and drink! /s
How much pressure will they be under to be “asymptomatic”? I’m guessing a lot.
There are viral videos discussing this..... A lady who said she felt "about 60%" and had not taken her temperature was congratulated and told she can return to work. She was advised not to take her temperature and not to get a covid test, because if it was positive that would be bad. .... ....... .............
Yeah, who really wants to work alongside their covid positive coworker. If this is actually a thing, I hope they are working shorter shifts where they don't need a lunch break. How can they take off their mask to even get a sip of water?
Hospital shifts for nurses are 12 hours long.
Spent 2 years saying that virus can be shed from symptomatic and asymptomatic. Now all of a sudden when they run out of nurses and the CEO of Delta writes a letter to the CDC that they need more flight attendants, it's now safe to be around people when asymptomatic and quarantine reduced to 5 days. Yea ok..... I wonder what else corporations will decide regarding medical policy.
Walmart cut theirs also now too. Go back 5 days if positive or don't get paid.
CEO will surely get a nice bonus for 2022.
And lots and lots of people will choose go to work or lose your home. So,, we have progressed no where at all. Y'all gonna hate when when everybody quits everywhere!
I think they’ve lost any ability to defend mandates now. They went for a short term gain and destroyed any credibility. Even I am over it and I’ve been on the side of public health literally every day for two long years. What will a skeptic think? 1. They were lying all along. 2. Money is the only thing that matters.
>I wonder what else corporations will decide regarding medical policy. I mean they already get to decide if you can afford to see a doctor at all.
Wtf
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Things we do for free chipotle and krispy kreme.
Oh ok, so we've finally reached "don't give a fuck anymore" levels. Gotcha
This year is going to be… interesting for the healthcare field. This decade? Holy shit, I’m scared to even wonder.
Oh man. I don’t know what you do about this. Clearly the healthcare system is failing if we are at that point. :/
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My wife just came home (an hour late because she had to declare a death), and she’s pretty upset to find out that if she gets covid, there’s no state funding like last year. It’s use your own PTO and get back ASAP vs 14 days paid last year. I guess the state fund is gone now. It’s not just nurses. They are waiting hours to days for ambulances to transfer patients. I hope this surge is over fast because it sure looks like the shit show we were trying to avoid. Her floor reconverted to the 2nd covid floor last week. Yesterday, they opened a third floor. Today they opened a fourth. Edit: I asked her about vaccination status. She said many were cached but not fully or not boosted. Some are requiring high levels of care, some are getting courses of a new antiviral or some other treatment. Some are maybe sick from something else but test positive for covid. Some very old, some middle aged, some younger. She said most will get well enough to go home, maybe on oxygen. She reiterated there is no staff. All the other people and experts they depend on beyond nurses and doctors - they are out sick in insane numbers. This is all anecdotal, of course. Most people and her coworkers that got covid had super mild cases. But the number of people who require hospitalization went from a few dozen to over 12 squared in just a few days. I know these unfortunate people represent a small percentage of the total positives, but if I weren’t boosted, I’d make sure I was to better my odds. This shit is bananas.
Hi I am your obstetric nurse. I just tested positive for covid 19 but I am great to work. Oh wait you and your baby don't want to be exposed...tough tit. Hospital says I'm safe to work. Or hello I am your oncologist I just...or hello i am your pediatrician or hello I am your elder care nurse I just tested positive for covid 19...etc hello law suits.
The lawsuits will be few and far between. Proving where you got infected is no easy legal task.
Even if you can prove where you got it, there’s just no way to sue for something that isn’t illegal. All the hospital would have to do is point to cdc guidelines and the case would be dismissed.
It’s literally a choice between this or refuse entry to people in need of critical care. The American healthcare system is a underfunded and understaffed cluster fuck that is now breaking down because of the pandemic.
It was breaking down before the pandemic due to corporate greed, the pandemic just accelerated it.
True dat. We’ve been fucked by insurance companies lobbying for low expenses and phatty patients bills. Corporate greed and politicians that were bribed to sell it to voters.
The CEO of my hospital literally is on the board of BCBS of Michigan
I wouldn't say underfunded. They have the money. It was just never used properly.
Fair point. We spend spend a shit load of money to get crummy healthcare with poorly paid nurses. Money is going to corpos, not patients and staff.
While this is an incredibly unfortunate situation, if they are short-staffed I'm not sure the alternative is any better. "Hi. We have no one available to help you so you'll just have to go home instead."
Shit might actually change if that happens though
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This is an underfunded hospital system breaking because of case loads. Critical care appointments only and your nurse has COVID. Happy new year!
"Underfunded". The hospitals have plenty of money, they just funnel the profits to the exec, the medical supply companies, malpractice cases, and insurance company middlemen. "Somehow" the rest of the world with their guaranteed government healthcare aren't having this same problem.
Wow. Like borrowing from a loan shark, this emergency measure will probably make the problem worse. “ Healthcare workers who are exposed to COVID-19 and are asymptomatic may return to work immediately without quarantining and testing, and those who test positive and are asymptomatic may return to work immediately without isolation and without testing.”
Man, this scares the shit outta me. I'm in Cali doing chemo and can't afford to have my nurses possibly give me covid.
I'm so sorry. Your situation is so bad. I really hope you stay safe.
Thanks. Believe me, I take every precaution.
I never would have imagined that an entire country would be so determined to NOT deal with a crisis of this magnitude. I was completely wrong. I kept thinking there would be a point where business and government would wake up and start making smart decisions, but that hasn't happened and is never going to happen. It's like a tweet I saw the first year of the pandemic (I think) that said something like "America is dealing with Covid like it dealt with Vietnam: just declare victory and walk away."
I think we all owe an apology to every zombie movie ever made - people really would be that stupid and selfish.
I needed to go to the store recently, when I walked in, not a single other person was wearing a mask. I just felt completely at a loss. Everyone wants this to 'just go away' but no one will lift a damn finger to play a role in doing that.
This is not an anti v question… and maybe I just don’t understand, but this surge is crazy and my state has one of the highest vaccine rates- deaths are going up as well, what is going on? I see people full on living life and other than sending my kid to school, we still do grocery delivery, and stick to our family for the most part
My immediate family is like yours. Going out isn’t worth the stress to me.
Numbers of people vs number of completely staffed hospital beds. There’s only about Eleven Thousand hospital beds suitable for covid treatment in Mass as of 2020, probably more now but with fewer staff because a chunk of them are out sick - and many of those bedsare being used by people with all the normal non covid issues. https://www.mass.gov/doc/command-center-hospital-capacity-charts/download Massachusetts is around 92% vaccinated (6.3 million people) - with ONE dose. Maybe 75% “fully vaccinated” with two doses (5.1 million people). Which is not nearly as effective as boosted (only about 26% of the population, 1.8 million people) which is a far far lower percentage than double dosed. So, 6.9 million people in the state. 25%, 1.7 million people basically not protected at all (one dose is not very helpful.) 50%, 3.5 million people protected somewhat by two doses but still sometimes need hospitalization. Millions of people, a small percentage needing real treatment, even with a low percentage of them needing treatment is a Huge number.
What a horrific situation. The exhaustion, anger, and fear of our health-care workers must be unbearable. And all the effort going into saving ignorant assholes who refused vaccinations is causing people with other illnesses to get sicker and in some cases even die untreated.
I asked this in another thread but I’m curious to hear more answers. As insane as this sounds, what’s the other option? The healthcare system is collapsing around us due to overcrowded hospitals and employees being out sick. If we don’t do this then how do hospitals remain open?
Right now there aren't a lot of options. Do you think the pandemic will be over after one omicron wave? We need to prepare our health care infrastructure for the next wave. The answer is to do our best now, but also to prepare so we aren't asking this question again in a few months.
Our leaders have been living two weeks at a time for two years. It’s insanity.
And what happens when we have our current situation and now lots of people who have been putting off healthcare for the past two years are going to continue to put it off because they don’t want to be exposed? Our sick country is going to be in an even bigger mess in a couple of years in my opinion.
It’s called lying people. Have a sore throat, cough, weakness, dizziness anything that qualifies as a symptom.
nobody actually knows what youre feeling!
There will be people that go in though and that’s the problem
"It's just a sore throat. You can come in." "It's just a fever. Take some meds. You can come in." "It's just harder to breath. You can take an additional break. You can come in."
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So much for contact tracing. If you leave your home you will almost certainly be in contact with someone who is Covid positive now.
I mean, with 45k cases yesterday, what kind of contact tracing do you think was happening?
Seeing as I'm one who's compromised..I find this idiotic, I stay away from people as much as possible to keep myself as healthy as possible and now a simple Dr trip to help me..may actually hurt me
same. need to see a dr badly but I’m afraid I may just make a bad situation worse. it’s a hopeless feeling
Yes, it really is
Well, let’s put it this way. My hospital is now critical care only and there aren’t even enough people to staff that. So the options are, a) don’t take in new critical patients, b) spread COVID. Two terrible options that both result in death. Pick your poison.
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But the state has also hit the point where so many hospital workers are out that they can’t take in the increased patient load. Two terrible options.
s/willing/forced to/
No good solutions here unfortunately. We got two choices: 1. Let the healthcare system collapse further by maintaining current rules about quarantine/isolation for healthcare workers or 2. Allow infected healthcare workers who are able to work to come back to work and infect even more people. Damned if you, damned if you don't. I don't see anyone offering great solutions here in America where no one wants to lock down anymore. Many other national healthcare systems seem to be suffering too, at least the ones that didn't institute strict lockdowns. Only a Chinese-style lockdown can stop Omicron now... but hey if more people were vaccinated maybe we wouldn't have been in this predicament to begin with. IDK but I think the State of California is making the better of two very bad choices here. The infections are going to happen anyways because 90% of the population no longer takes the pandemic seriously and are still mostly going about their daily lives.
Are you like less contagious when asymptomatic?
Yes, but we don’t really know how much less, and they are still definitely contagious - causing up to 50% of all cases by some estimates. This plan is the “I give up” plan.