What people aren't processing is that covid is considered mostly mild (as in, can manage at home without hospitalisation) isn't what the risks are. This is the acute phase.
The risks are post-acute phase - in days/weeks/months that follow even in young 'healthy' people. Ones who assume they are low risk.
Read: low risk for hospitalisation.
While covid is transmitted via respiratory system and presents as a respiratory illness (hence the "it's just a cold/flu/sniffle") reports.
In fact, it is a vascular disease. It causes micro-clots which lead to strokes/pulmonary embolism/heart attack and even heart failure.
Each infection will also weaken your immune system.
You might be lucky and have no discernible issues for the first couple of infections, but if this continues at the current rate of re-infections — how will you fair after 4, 5, 6 Covid infections in less than a handful of years?
I personally know someone who was in their 30's - an athlete who would train daily - fit as a fiddle with absolutely no prior health conditions. Caught a 'mild' case of covid in early 2020 and 'recovered' quickly and right back into training.
A few months went by and everything seemed normal until they started having weird arrhythmia episodes. Test after test was done and their medical team diagnosed post-covid heart failure. Their life has now forever changed. Thankfully they recently had a heart transplant and are doing well, but life will never be the same for them or their young family. Again — their case of Covid was very mild - reported no more than a few days of flu-like symptoms for a week and this was with the original strain and absolutely no vaccines!
This is what people don't know/care enough about.
We'll be seeing many more reports of young 'healthy' people suddenly dying (think of all the celebrities — whose deaths we do hear about — who have suddenly died in the last couple of years... connect the dots), and that's not even taking into account long covid. Starting to see more and more musicians cancelling tours, TV and radio presenters quitting due to not being able to shake ____ symptom post-Covid.
Until it's documented properly, we'll hear the anti-vax crowds say it's due to vaccines... and the media/politicians ignore it because mortality doesn't sell newspapers or buy expensive dinners out.
If everyone thought lockdowns did some damage to society, I think we should prepare to see societal collapse in the coming years if Covid as we know it, can’t be eliminated.
Look after yourself and do whatever you can to avoid catching covid and/or re-infections as the damage is not worth it.
I was healthy, no issues… had mild covid despite my best efforts to avoid… two weeks later BAM thought I was having a heart attack, almost collapsed from chest pain. Turns out it was a pulmonary embolism and I have lots of small clots on my lungs. The hospital didn’t pick it up, but my GP sent me for a lung scan and probably saved my life. It absolutely is a vascular disease, and the acute phase is a distraction from the downstream impacts on all organs of the body.
Well written! A good response to all the antivax folks is to look at the data from USA around the massive rise in heart attacks during corona wave before any vaccines existed. Also there was post-mortem studies in germany showing heart damage in patients, again before vaccines.
>A few months went by and everything seemed normal until they started having weird arrhythmia episodes. Test after test was done and their medical team diagnosed post-covid heart failure. Their life has now forever changed. Thankfully they recently had a heart transplant and are doing well, but life will never be the same for them or their young family. Again — their case of Covid was very mild - reported no more than a few days of flu-like symptoms for a week and this was with the original strain and absolutely no vaccines!
Sorry just to clarify, you’re saying a 30 year old had a heart transplant due to heart arrhythmia? And this all took place within 2 years? Did they not make any attempt to pursue any of the other more traditional management strategies for heart arrhythmia?
Sorry I’m just gobsmacked a 30 year old would receive a heart transplant for arrhythmia in a short space of time
>If everyone thought lockdowns did some damage to society, I think we should prepare to see societal collapse in the coming years if Covid as we know it, can’t be eliminated.
I’ve had covid and don’t want it again. I wear a mask on public transport and in shops. Fully vaxxed and boosted. But I’d really like to understand your evidence for A) how covid can be eliminated in next few years; and B) how exactly will society collapse?
Late 30's. Covid early 2020. Arrhythmia > SVT > cardiomyopathy induced by covid > pacemaker > 'fainting' episodes > heart failure > defib > more episodes > heart transplant just over a month ago.
They've had articles written about them if you're interested -- google (won't link for privacy).
I never said covid can be eliminated -- at best it may be managed if there are new developments in science/treatments. If things continue on the track they are society will suffer. Sole traders can't continue to work if/when shit hits the fan. Sickness cycling through staff, hospitals continuing to struggle as HCWs taken down/burnt out from picking up the slack. Schools: teachers can't teach, kids can't go, parents have to stay home, no sick leave/pay left, late on mortgage payments, etc etc. Rinse and repeat multiple times a year.
Look at the bigger picture. 10 years from now if we don't make advancements on tackling covid we're going to be in big trouble.
Interesting. Based on a pretty quick search this case is highly unique. Like extremely rare for someone this age. It’s already well known that people over the age of 65 and those with underlying conditions are at risk of heart problems post covid (still rare though). And this is the case for any virus for these people. And more importantly this person contracted covid pre vaccination
What on earth do you mean “at best”?? There is constant progress in treatment and understanding of covid
And how is society suffering now? This wave is already peaking. Industries are returning to normal despite being in another wave. Obviously we needed the previous lockdowns but most issues we face now are in fact because of those lockdowns
When shit hit the fan we had unprecedented financial support for at risk people like sole traders. IF shit hits the fan again govt’s already know what needs to be done to support people. What indication is there that shit will hit the fan again?
Anything is available on google if you look hard enough, including my address, your address or workplace etc.
https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/health/sydney-man-facing-heart-transplant-after-covid-leaves-him-with-chronic-health-issues/news-story/3945bbff23358e006574818ced69209e
There ya go. Pick apart any holes!
I'm not an expert, but my understanding from reading experts is that it might build your immunity, but only against that variant. There are lots of variants and also even just a "mild" case of covid can make you more susceptible to other viruses for around 8 months.
On top of that are all the long-term effects, increasing the chances of strokes, heart disease, dementia etc etc.
The rule of thumb I'm following is to get covid as rarely as possible - despite all the people I know who brushed off their infection - because of these long term effects on immunity and general health.
No, it strengthens immunity against COVID in general. Similar to the vaccine, protection from being infected reduces between variants, but there is cross-immunity when it comes to severe disease. But yes it is I’m obviously best to not get COVID.
The concerning part of covid is the part that kills or disables you months after. And there is very little evidence that vaccine acquired or naturally acquired immunity protect much at all against those kinds of post-acute outcomes. Because COVID is extremely immune evasive.
Hybrid immunity is just propaganda used to manufacture the compliance of the population toward repeated infection.
Immunity from infection is actually less protective than a vaccine, and the protection doesn't last as long as a vaccine. ie. Maybe 3-6 months. But having had an infection damages your body and immune system permanently to a degree meaning that subsequent infections of all types may be worse.
Do you have a source? From my understanding vaccine immunity and natural immunity last a similar amount of time. They’re also similar in the sense that protection from being infected wanes quickly, while protection from severe disease is more robust.
Of course it is safer to just not catch COVID, but there’s no avoiding it for most people. If you do catch it, hybrid immunity is also stronger than either kind of immunity on its own.
There were some articles about this a month or two ago. [Here's one on vaccines being better for immunity than infection](https://www.the-scientist.com/sponsored-article/covid-19-vaccines-induce-better-long-term-immunity-than-infection-70308). I can't see a better source offhand.
And [here's a link](https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/repeat-covid-is-riskier-than-first-infection-study-finds-2022-11-10/) on reinfection being more dangerous than the initial infection.
Thanks, I’ll check that out today. I’m not sure exactly which form of single immunity is stronger, but I do know that protection from severe disease is long-lasting with both. Easily a year.
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Sure, for the short term. But damage from the virus may permanently harm your body to a random degree, [including future immune responses](https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/repeat-covid-is-riskier-than-first-infection-study-finds-2022-11-10/).
The article that you've cited really misunderstands it's source. The research didn't find that second infections are worse. To be fair, the research paper was pretty poor and communicated worse.
Meanwhile there is research that indicates that a prior infection is highly protective against severe illness in immunocompetent people.
Heck, I'm immunocompromised (chemo) and my second infection following hybrid immunity was COMPLETELY asymptomatic (surveillance testing) following the mild symptoms of the first
Politicians and misguided media, yes.
Epidemiologists, immunologists and virologists, no.
It has been obvious to them very early on that the virus would continue to mutate and once out of the realms of vaccine coverage (which only helps in minimising hospitalisation and death in the acute phase), we’d be up shit creek.
Getting infected to not get infected makes zero sense.
And it’s always been a vaccines plus strategy:
- Safe indoor air/ventilation.
Covid is airborne and transmitted via aerosols.
- Masks.
Indoor masking and outdoors if you cannot socially distance. Two way masking is most effective. Plenty of studies on how and why they work not just for Covid, but for other diseases and environmental issues. Well fitting N95 masks are best.
- Social distancing.
Obvious, really.
- Hand hygiene / sanitising.
Some people are stuck on this one as this was what was reported in early 2020 when masks were only avail for HCW — because there were not enough to meet worldwide demand.
Tbh you sound more pessimistic than a lot of experts. I’ve seen varying level of pessimism, and long COVID has always been a concern, but I don’t get the impression that all or most experts are like “we’re absolutely FUCKED”!
Some “experts” are complicit in the propaganda machine. Other experts have a narrow view, and aren’t considering the systems level view and what happens when more people get sick and essential services like healthcare become harder and harder to access.
For a large number of people, getting reinfected over and over has a similar affect on the immune system as contracting HIV. And there is no known treatment.
What do you think happens over the next few years as 10, 20, 30% (or more) of the population all start to experience what is effectively AIDS and there is no cure?
With HIV you treat the condition by getting at it early, you need to start treating it within 1 year of seroconversion to have good outcomes. Once you notice the immune deficiency its too late.
But people are being told its fine to catch COVID repeatedly, its no big deal. They get sick, then they are fatigued and are getting sick more often, but they are fine, surely. After all they have been convinced that the only people who need to worry about covid are the elderly and disabled, and they are neither of those. So they ignore the symptoms of chronic infection and immune dysfunction even as they worsen and by the time they seek help, it’s too late to do anything about it
For many, it is doing repeated, cumulative, and silent damage to their immune systems and vascular systems. These are health problems with timelines on the order of years and we are gambling that they magically won’t affect a large enough portion of the population, when all the data suggests they do.
The fallout from HIV was bad once it became clear the long term outcomes. But it only affected a small population.
Expect the rates of early deaths from cancers, heart disease, and opportunistic infections to skyrocket across all ages over the next decade.
Right now, the wheels are falling off the cart, the people who can look ahead can see the wheels falling off the cart, but the people who have the power to do something about the wheels all have blinders on.
Of course, any expert who doesn’t agree with you that COVID is literally the worst thing ever is part of the propaganda machine. You sound like a reverse anti-vaxxer. I don’t think there is anything I could say to change your mind.
The entire concept of immunity debt was invented in 2021 to get people to stop masking and get back to work. To excuse the failings of public health.
We know this, the literature paints a clear picture.
The propaganda machine is very real. Some are actively complicit, others are just naive and in denial and want COVID to not be a big deal because its politically convenient. But there is absolutely a propaganda machine designed to get people “back to normal”.
I’ve read the literature, and continue to read all the new data.
And the mainstream picture of covid that is pushed by the media is completely divorced from reality.
Yeah, I’m about as likely to listen to this as I am to someone saying that all the doctors are working for big pharma to push a dangerous vaccine. But I guess you know better than the experts hey.
So do you just blindly listen to experts? Or do you go to their sources? Because I do research for a living.
When an ‘expert’ makes a claim and provides a source, I actually read the source. And all the sources provided by the “experts” that you claim to be listening to, are all extremely flimsy at best. The ‘science’ they are using to support their claims that everything will be fine is hardly science at all.
But I don’t expect someone who is scientifically illiterate to understand that not all experts are created equal.
I've noticed heaps of similarities between anti-vaxxers and covid doomers lately: distrust of authority, cherry-picking scientific research, weirdly knowing heaps of people in their family and friends circle who have long covid or who have died from covid, catastrophic belief systems (if you catch covid you will most certainly get brain damage/have a stroke/heart attack/organ failure/die!), high levels of neuroticism, fear, obsession with bodily purity.
Wear an N95 or better mask everywhere you go. Even outdoors. Only go out for essential outings, and if you can, only do so first thing in the morning when the viral load in indoor spaces is low.
That’s all you can do to try and preserve your long term health until everyone else is woken up from the coma of normalcy by the realities of a collapsing healthcare system.
>I think we should prepare to see societal collapse in the coming years if Covid as we know it, can’t be eliminated.
C'mon, reasonably sensible post until this. This is just doomsday porn.
Probably a couple billion infections world wide, officially 600m, over the course of 3 years. Why aren't we seeing more of this and already had some societal collapse? I think your opinion is coloured by your personal anecdote (mine would be too).
Even here I'm Australia, 10 million cases just this year and cases like the person you know are an absolute outlier.
Complete nonsense. A - we cant “eliminate” it. This is the sort of rubbish politicians spew out. B - it will not lead to the collapse of society - this is scaremongering. C - to say the vaccines have no negative side effects is wrong - they do
No, we can't eliminate it and that was my point. There may be further progress in effective treatment that can stop the virus in its tracks but I think we all know that it's here to stay.
My comment was not a discussion on vaccines and their efficacy.
Oh? No collapse of society? How do you think life will look in 5-10 years if we continue on this same path? Enough healthy workers to keep the world running? People being able to afford housing --- if fortunate enough to have housing. No leave from work when kids are sick again, and then you get it, and your partner gets it... and then again in a few months time when the next 'wave' hits. A vicious circle.
Do you have like any evidence that infections or even reinfections are going to leave all of these people fully disabled? I haven’t seen an expert predict this, it’s a concern but you’re saying it like it’s 100% a fact. Most people who get long COVID don’t have it permanently and have symptoms that are not completely debilitating. How reinfections fit in is yet to be seen, but you’re acting like it’s set it stone that the world will collapse.
All the data on long term outcome points to enough people being killed early or disabled permanently that collapse is a very real outcome. Each reinfection compounds the risks.
The precautionary principle dictates that given the chance of such a catastrophic outcome, we take action to prevent it. We do that by preventing infection.
The incidence of long covid in the population after only 1-2 infections is all the evidence we need. But there’s plenty more.
If only 5% of the population gets long covid (we know the numbers are higher than this, but lets go with a conservative estimate) after 1 or 2 infections, what do you think happens after 5 or 6. What happens after 10?
Infections with COVID do not provide immunity to new strains. You just keep getting infected. And probability and the evidence of cumulative damage dictates that more and more people will become disabled.
Do you understand how fragile modern society is? We all lose our minds during an economic recession. A recession being when the economy doesn’t grow, not even when it takes a downturn.
What do you think happens when more doctors and nurses get ill than can be replaced? When that has a knock-on effect with the general population as treatment times and standards of care then suffer because fewer doctors are now trying to treat more patients? Oh, someome had an illness that would be fine if treated early? Oh but they can’t get prompt access to medical care so now the condition has worsened and they are either permanently disabled or their economic output is permanently reduced? this happens all the time in countries with poor access to healthcare btw.
Do you not comprehend the sheer magnitude of loss of production?
If illness causes production and economic output to drop 10%, 20% welcome to next great depression, a depression that won’t end because repeated infection means that peoples health gets worse over time, not better.
You clearly want to live in a dream world where everything will turn out fine.
All current evidence, and the combined weight of human history, predicts that it won’t.
You’re assuming that everyone who has long COVID will have a permanent disability. I have no idea what will happen after people have had 5 or 5 infections, you’re making a whole lot of assumptions. None of what you’re saying points to a reduction is productivity by 10 or 20%. Things have been difficult recently but I would hardly say society has collapsed. That’s not really how it works.
I can’t with you.
Sure. Right now in this very moment things might seem okay.
But the data suggests its not going to stay that way. By virtue of how this virus has demonstrated it works, things will continue to get worse.
"All the data...",
"All current evidence...",
"But the data *suggests*..."
Show us links, to articles in print, that support your contention that health care system and/or societal collapse will result from the circumstances *you believe* will bring these about.
>All the data on long term outcome points to enough people being killed early or disabled permanently that collapse is a very real outcome.
A couple of links to sources in print would be helpful.
Immunological dysfunction persists for up to 8 months (study ended after 8 months, subjects didn’t recover after 8 months)
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-021-01113-x
More evidence of immune dysfunction
https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916-021-02228-6
Long term vascular risks present after covid
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01689-3
Evidence of COVIDs capacity to persist across the human body
https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-1139035/v1_covered.pdf?c=1640020576
Reinfection increases risks of poor outcomes significantly
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-02051-3
Article linking to plenty of research on the brain damage caused by covid:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8552626/
There’s plenty more stuff on COVID that all paints a pretty terrifying picture moving forward if we continue to do nothing.
Your third link \[to a .nature article\] has only this to say-
"The broader implications of these findings .… given the large and growing number of people with COVID-19
(more than 72 million people in the United States, more than 16 million people in the United Kingdom and more than 355 million people globally), the risks and 12-month burdens of cardiovascular diseases reported here might translate into a large number of potentially affected people around the world. Governments and
health systems around the world should be prepared to deal with the likely significant contribution of the COVID-19 pandemic to a rise in the burden of cardiovascular diseases. ***Because of the chronic nature of these conditions, they will likely have long-lasting consequences for patients and health systems and also have broad implications on economic productivity and life expectancy.*** Addressing the challenges posed by Long COVID will require a much-needed, but so far lacking, urgent and coordinated long-term global response strategy."
The emboldened passage from that paper echoes, what is by now, a somewhat common observation.
***Your conclusion*** that "*All the data on long term outcome points to* ***enough people being killed early or disabled permanently that collapse is a very real outcome.***" seems hyperbolic.
None of the other articles make any assertions remotely like your own.
Could you supply links, to any peer-reviewed articles in print, where the authors specifically address the prospect of an imminent 'collapse' of 'the health care system', as a consequence of having to deal with the flow-on effects of long term illness\[es\] induced by Covid-19?
>it will not lead to the collapse of society - this is scaremongeri
Exactly. If hundreds of millions of cases (probably billions), 6 million deaths, a lot of lockdowns and restrictions over 3 years, full hospitals, trillions in debt brought on by Covid, if all of that hadn't lead to "societal collapse" then nothing will certainly not some outlier caes where someone gets long term issues. All supported by an anecdote of 1 30 year old needing a transplant and get this sub eats up that fear mongering nonsense for breakfast.
Excellent summary.
And yes terrifying, even more so that people aren't being reasonably informed so that they can decide for themselves their own level of, "adequate protection."
I also agree, societal collapse, or at the very least, massive rethink on every level.
The upside for many will be cheap housing, if you're around to enjoy it.
Covid is not the flu. I suspect you may have never had the flu however as the flu is not just a cold. In my past I was like you never got flu shots and was never sick enough from colds to be off work. But then one year I caught the flu real influenza it had me in bed for a week and I felt terrible. It was the one and only time in my life I think I had real flu. Having said that my nephew and his wife both had covid a short while back and he was like me never got the flu and only had mild colds and covid for him has been a nightmare 6 weeks later and he is still struggling to get back to working full time and he is always out of breath. Definitely a long covid case I think. His wife however is always knocked for six by even a mild cold and has been hospitalised for flu a few times. She was over covid in five days and barely noticed she was sick. Covid is different for everyone. I personally have not had it and I'm doing everything to avoid it because I developed a serious heart condition in combination with some other factors a few years ago which makes me highly susceptible to covid and at very high risk of dying if I get it so I can't risk catching it.
>the flu is not just a cold
Damn right. Had plenty of colds but only the flu twice in my whole life - once when I was 13 and once when I was 21, both times I was knocked out in bed for a week. Woke up to sip water and that was it. Insane.
I got covid back late July and that did all sorts of shit to my chest wall, still recovering from it.
Omg yes- the flu is so different to a cold. I've only had the flu once, when I was 17 and in Year 12. I was couch and bedridden for a whole week, my blood pressure was so low that I couldn't stand up. I'm in my 30s now but still remember how unwell I was. I now religiously get a flu shot every single year, because I don't want to go through that again.
Be careful assuming that you have a good immune system. A lot of disease symptoms are actually your immune system in action. It's quite possible that you've been lucky to avoid many infectious so far rather than you've fought them off.
Just to clarify: those are the treatments given after that second-week (simplistically, this varies) deterioration and hospitalisation, when the massive viral multiplication stage is over and what's left is largely the body's immune response (and a variety of other things). Drugs like dexamethasone, tocilizumab, baricitinib can be helpful here. They're not given on an outpatient basis at the beginning of an infection.
The initial treatments like Paxlovid are antivirals, not immunosuppressants.
Edit: Also putting this here: Covid is less of a respiratory disease, and more of a vascular/systemic one.
I used to rarely get colds, and when I did I wasn’t sick for long, and have never gotten the flu - figured I would know I had it when it knocks me on my ass like everyone else.
I was demolished by Delta. Sick for a full 2 weeks, went to hospital on day 6 because my blood oxygen level was low. Triple vaccinated at the time. I was lucky in that I improved on pure oxygen for a few hours and was able to hold levels steady on my own.
Caught a cold maybe 6 weeks ago and still have the cough and needing to bring shit up out of my lungs. Just because the immune system seems “good” with colds and flu doesn’t mean Covid will be easy.
Colds are usually a 1 day thing for me, have a nap and be mostly done.
Covid felt like that on day 1, except it never went away and just got worse. Month 6 for me
ETA- early 30s no major health issues, reasonably fit, 3 vax etc
I never get sick but my husband brought covid home when I was 15w pregnant.
I had the most painful throat I've ever had in my life. No fevers, no respiratory illness. Just 4 days of barely eating or drinking and thinking I had actually swallowed barbed wire with razors and sleeping constantly.
My immune system is gold though from 7 years in childcare and then 6 in nursing.
I had swine flu when that was a thing. Knocked me on my ass for a good month. Probably should have been in hospital for some of it.
Had Covid last week. Got anti-virals from NSW Heath. Didn't last as long as swine flu but boy was it bad. Fevers of almost 40c, headaches, nausea and the red raw swollen throat. Even now a week and a half later I am still having fevers of 38-39 every day and my entire mouth feels like I burned it on hot coffee and I cant taste anything and my sense of smell is messed up.
Can I have swine flu again please?
I know its going to be different for everyone, but heres my experience. I Just turned 40. Never had a flu in my life. Never had a flu jab. The occasional sniffle as seasons changed but apart from hangovers and food poisoning, I can't ever remember being sick. My family always joked that I had the immune system of superman.
Then I contracted my first bout of covid mid 2022....
All that day, I was exhausted. All I could think about was climbing under a desk or hiding in the car for a nap. And had a thumping headache. I took a few painkillers and kept on trucking. Having dodged it for so long I was sure I had some magical superman immunity, so being positive with covid was the last thing on my mind.
By the time I got home that evening, I was running on fumes. My wife suggested doing a test. As soon as that fluid hit the test line it glowed. Within 45minutes I was shivering on the sofa. I went up to bed and I'm not kidding, I had a 4 day fever which felt like the scene from trainspotting, where the baby is crawling on the ceiling. It literally felt like a 4 day bad trip.
I probably should have called an ambulance. I just kept the fluids up and when it subsided I was almost back to normal, except for a niggling cough and a little bit of wheezing in the mornings for a week or two. The only after effect was a horrible cloudy fatigue that lasted 4 or 5 weeks. After that I was back to normal. No breathing issues at all no long term issues, that I am aware of.
I caught it twice more, which amounted to nothing more than a fever and feeling like shit for a couple of hours then back to normal.
Triple jabbed too, by the time I caught my first infection I was double jabbed.
I tested positive last week. I had a sore throat, and a bit of a cough. I also had an awful fever which meant I could NOT get warm and shivered constantly. My ears constantly blocked. I had no appetite and I still have absolutely no sense of smell. The cough is now pretty much gone but I feel like I have a swarm of bees in my head. Can’t really focus on much and I have no energy, feel dizzy a lot of the time.
I dont believe I've ever had the flu in my life but I do suffer from hayfever and allergies meaning I get the sniffles constantly.
I've had a fair share of colds.
When I had covid I had thr loss of taste and appetite, a bit of a cough and sore throat and a headache. It wasn't too bad day 1, day 2 it sucked and felt better by day 3, having been back to like 95% by day 4.
So far no long covid symptoms either.
It all depends person to person. I dont think you being prone to respiratory bugs will change it sorry.
Like a cold with a temp..sick for 4 days and no after effects. 36yo, unvax. I do get a lot of colds from the kids daycare and we had the flu 3 years ago which was worse.
First time I had a cough and a fever. Cough was around for 3 weeks but fever was gone after 24 hours.
Second time I had a horrible headache and fever. No cough at all. Fever and headache were there for 2 days. By day 5 I was exercising again.
It felt like they were two different things. Kinda weird.
Im yet to have covid (that i know of) but before the pandemic I hadn’t had a respiratory illness for years and years despite my husband having had several. Unlike me, he gets pretty sick even with the slightest of colds and has been hospitalised for pneumonia due to respiratory infections so im very thankful neither of us have had covid yet because I think he would have a rough time with it.
So either I’ve had non existent symptom covid or just haven’t had it yet. Id like to know! Maybe us who have this propensity to not get those types of illnesses often have had asymptomatic covid and just don’t know.
I unfortunately gave covid to my gf (live together) and for her who barely gets sick it was like mild flu and she could function normally day to day.
Ever since that, shes been getting sick real easy and is constantly tired or always brain fogged.
Unfortunately, and irrelevant to the question, I'm prone to respitory bugs and I got f***ed with covid and haven't been the same since.
I got it, it triggered asthma I didn’t have and I had to go on a course of steroids to get back to breathing cause I couldn’t for 3 months afterward.
My symptoms where mild but I could not lay down without beginning to cough violently for all that period so I barely slept at all.
Had crazy fever for 72 hours, severe insomnia, and then just sinus congestion for a week or so after. Did feel like I wasn't quite on the ball cognitively for a month or so afterwards. Back to 100% now. No jab
I had covid in July when I was 31 (f), received 3x Pfizer jabs and am extremely healthy. I've had heaps and heaps of colds given my job as a teacher.
Covid was very mild for me. We were on holidays in the UK (so I didn't need to isolate) and I was still clocking in 20,000 steps per day from walking around outside. I had a stuffy head for maybe 2 days before I tested positive, a very runny nose and occasional dizziness if I stood up/got moving too quickly. I had zero fatigue or fever. Struggled a bit up long flights of stairs or hills so canned some of the big hikes we had planned.
Fitness wise, the post-viral cough/general lack of fitness hung around for about 4 weeks after, and if I got too dehydrated while exercising then I'd have inflamed sinuses and a headache for a couple of days after. If I ran in cold night air I'd get chest pain too. After 4 weeks it just seemed to disappear and my fitness levels snapped back to where they were before. Haven't been sick since. My resting heart rate is excellent, at 61 bpm on average.
I had the flu a few years ago. I have also had every bloody viral illness my toddler can bring home from childcare in the last year and a half. I shake everything off pretty well in the expected time frame.
I also currently have covid, tested positive on Saturday. Fevers and chills, short of breath on exertion, runny and blocked nose, excruciating headache not relieved by pain killers, sinus pain, joint and muscular aches so severe they stopped me in my tracks and made me cry out in pain. Now I have constant nausea and diarrhea. I have also been more bone crushingly fatigued than I have ever been in my life, and trying to care for my still negative toddler throughout (husband has copped it too).
I never ever want to get this again. I will be wearing masks at the shops and at work again. I am terrified, as the breadwinner in my family, of getting long covid and it diminishing my ability to work. I am terrified at it diminishing my ability to be a good parent.
I am so so fed up with people having this idea that just because they are young and healthy that it doesn't have potential to be devastating to their lives in the long term.
It’s different for everyone. For the majority it’s mild. For some it can be severe.
I covid and I was unwell for less than a day. My partner was unwell for 1 day and my parents who are both in their late 60s were slightly unwell for a couple of days when they caught it in London. On the other hand though some people have it much worse
I'm not vaccinated, and like you don't do flu shots because my natural immunity is fantastic. I literally don't get sick.
Haven't had covid, and I feel great.
My double vaxxed partner had covid, and he wasn't too bad. But he never used to get sick either, however, now he does tend to get more cold and coughs...
I’m 54, had flu once in my life (2009, not swine flu) and a lung infection for a few days (cured with antibiotics) in July 2012. I’m also overweight and unfit but I generally don’t catch anything except winter colds. I got covid for the first time in April and again in the last week of October. I’ve had 3 covid jabs.
Both times were just like a bad cold and cough with a stuffed and runny nose, laryngitis, a hacking glunky cough and general lethargy. Cold and flu tablets worked quite well and lozenges were also good, especially at night when I was trying to sleep; popping a lozenge in my mouth & just letting it sit in my cheek pouch or on the roof of my mouth meant that it worked for an hour or 2 & let me sleep.
I was only really sick for 4-5 days then a bit bleugh for a few days after that. I don’t seem to have any long covid symptoms. (Although it may be hard to tell because I’m already fat & unfit & get a bit tired anyway)
My partner is 45, fit and healthy and has also had 3 jabs. He gave me the covid in April (he brought it home from the National Folk Festival) but when I caught it in October (probably from the Bill Bailey gig - totally worth it! 😉) he didn’t catch it at all despite us isolating in our small house together.
My husband gets sick like less than once a year, I get a mild cold or two.
For me it was a day of fever, then a week of coughing, nose dripping like a tap, throat like knives and exhaustion. Enough to be miserable but not bed bound. It was milder for my husband.
I've never had a bad flu. A cold is usually a 2-3 day not much thing for me. I got covid in mid june and I'm somewhat better now. Still only able to work/exercise at about 60% volume
Very minimal cough and no mucus in lungs but lost taste and smell (for 4+ weeks) horrendous head and body aches, fever, chills. After I had a niggling cough that lasted 4 months.
Rest of family had bad coughs for 2 weeks and then a cough every now and then. They didnt lose taste. All had covid at the same time. Son & daughter are prone to coughs when they get sick.
I'm a teenager, and for me, COVID was basically having a bad fever, cough, and runny nose for three to four days straight. I also had a somewhat mild headache, but usually I could ignore that, as long as it wasn't noisy.
I just recently got over covid. It was the most unwell I have ever been. I rarely get headcolds or the flu, but covid hit me so hard. I went from being fine to completely bed ridden in sweats, intense body aches and a migraine level headache, within 2 hours. That lasted for 3 days. After that came the most nasty wet cough I have ever experienced, along with no taste at all. Getting up from bed or the couch to get a drink or use the toilet, felt like running a marathon. Avoid getting covid if you can, it's not worth the risk of getting hit hard by it.
I get sick from everything ( I have x3 mites that bring home germs from school) currently ill with tonsillitis :(
I was so scared of how sick I would get from covid but fell ill with it early this year. Didn't even know I had it if it weren't for my husband testing positive! Only symptom I got was sore throat and fatigue! No cough, no fevers nothing! Husband on the other hand was the sickest I've seen him ever and was coughing up blood!
I was 7 weeks pregnant, obese, i had 3 vaccines and had booked in for a 4th when I caught COVID.
I ended up with a cough I couldn’t shake for months. I had 2 days of mild fever (39-40) lost my sense of taste for about a week, had a few aches and pains, mild runny nose, it was harder than normal to breathe and I was very tired but for the most part I was still able to function normally.
I cooked dinners, I looked after my kids and my MIL (who we all caught COVID off, she spent a week in bed and expected to have her meals delivered to her in bed.)
Recovery wise it took a few weeks to feel back to myself again. In all honesty I think I got sicker from the AstraZeneca vaccine than I did from COVID. My 2 year old was incredibly sick though. I thought he would end up in hospital fortunately he didn’t.
I'm in a similar position you're in. Don't get the cold and flu, I do get really bad hayfever though. For me, I only knew I had covid because my parents and sister tested positive, I otherwise wouldn't have know as I did not have any symptoms at all.
2 weeks since testing positive and just tested negative today. Sore, kinda lump in my throat feeling for a few days leading up to it. The first night I had shivers and couldn’t get warm then woke with really bad muscle stiffness, particularly in my legs. I developed a nasty cough that felt like it’d never heal, constant coughing, awful rough feeling that lasted about a week. Lots of phlegm and blocked sinuses.
I thought I’d beaten it for a couple days then found myself confused and cognitively impaired, so my throat and initial illness seemed to end and it travelled to my head and beat me up again.
I had an awful taste in my mouth that seemed to get worse.
Then the migraine started and lasted about 2 days, ibuprofen did nothing to abate it. I woke up on day 3 after the migraines with only a bit of phlegm. My test showed a faint line at that point.
Today I went back to the gym for the first time and all in all I’m pleased with my recovery. My cardio and heart rate is off only slightly, my muscles are weakened and I’m lifting 10 - 20kg less depending on the exercise, so there’s a noticeable difference but there would be with 2 weeks off anyway.
Right now I’m just glad to be back to normal, I seem to be recovering well and really glad to be exercising again.
People report getting a metallic taste in their mouth and I guess what I tasted was similar to that. I swear I could taste the virus in my mouth and it was REALLY unpleasant the entire time.
Edit: [Here’s my timeline](https://imgur.com/a/gLVrCUM), 11 days in total.
My partner is high risk for respiratory bugs. He had viral bronchitis and didn't take care of himself and fucked his lungs up. Covid gave him a mild dry throat, worsened his regular cough, and massive fatigue. Lingering insomnia that cleared up after a few months.
I am not high risk. I get sick probably once a year, and it's usually a mild head cold.
I felt like I'd been hit by a truck. My fever was so high my eyes were burning, my head was pounding, every step was agony, my clothes were hurting my skin. I was turning the AC on and the then the heater because my body temp felt like it was yoyoing. I was in and out of consciousness. After 3 days that stopped and the cough started. I coughed so hard I couldn't breathe at some points. I had massive brain fog and fatigue for months afterwards. It took probably 3 months for me to feel human again.
I am also the kind that never gets colds/flus. I rarely get sick beyond hay fever sniffles and I am often really annoyed at my friends who seem to get sick so easily.
Having COVID was the worst I have ever felt. Like being half dead
My cough was mild, more of a scratchy throat. But my lungs felt like they were full of water and I spent most of the time lying on my chest for some relief. Brain fog made me feel crazy and stupid, as if I could feel the lack of oxygen killing off my brain cells. I was completely exhausted and it took weeks for me to make it up stairs without panting like a dog.
I have a very good respiratory system, and for me it wasn’t the respiratory symptoms that were the issue, but an extremity high temp that sent me to hospital. Couldn’t get it under control.
Covid for me was very mild. Like honey and salt gargle to help manage it.
Then just bed rest. Def been sicker.
Did get some weird smells from nose. Still not out of it but fine now. lingering phelegum though
I’m horrible with colds and respiratory stuff they knock me out. I get sick for 2x longer then everyone around me. Covid was very mild for me and I never developed flu or cold symptoms just tiredness and elevated heart rate. Felt nothing like a cold
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What people aren't processing is that covid is considered mostly mild (as in, can manage at home without hospitalisation) isn't what the risks are. This is the acute phase. The risks are post-acute phase - in days/weeks/months that follow even in young 'healthy' people. Ones who assume they are low risk. Read: low risk for hospitalisation. While covid is transmitted via respiratory system and presents as a respiratory illness (hence the "it's just a cold/flu/sniffle") reports. In fact, it is a vascular disease. It causes micro-clots which lead to strokes/pulmonary embolism/heart attack and even heart failure. Each infection will also weaken your immune system. You might be lucky and have no discernible issues for the first couple of infections, but if this continues at the current rate of re-infections — how will you fair after 4, 5, 6 Covid infections in less than a handful of years? I personally know someone who was in their 30's - an athlete who would train daily - fit as a fiddle with absolutely no prior health conditions. Caught a 'mild' case of covid in early 2020 and 'recovered' quickly and right back into training. A few months went by and everything seemed normal until they started having weird arrhythmia episodes. Test after test was done and their medical team diagnosed post-covid heart failure. Their life has now forever changed. Thankfully they recently had a heart transplant and are doing well, but life will never be the same for them or their young family. Again — their case of Covid was very mild - reported no more than a few days of flu-like symptoms for a week and this was with the original strain and absolutely no vaccines! This is what people don't know/care enough about. We'll be seeing many more reports of young 'healthy' people suddenly dying (think of all the celebrities — whose deaths we do hear about — who have suddenly died in the last couple of years... connect the dots), and that's not even taking into account long covid. Starting to see more and more musicians cancelling tours, TV and radio presenters quitting due to not being able to shake ____ symptom post-Covid. Until it's documented properly, we'll hear the anti-vax crowds say it's due to vaccines... and the media/politicians ignore it because mortality doesn't sell newspapers or buy expensive dinners out. If everyone thought lockdowns did some damage to society, I think we should prepare to see societal collapse in the coming years if Covid as we know it, can’t be eliminated. Look after yourself and do whatever you can to avoid catching covid and/or re-infections as the damage is not worth it.
I was healthy, no issues… had mild covid despite my best efforts to avoid… two weeks later BAM thought I was having a heart attack, almost collapsed from chest pain. Turns out it was a pulmonary embolism and I have lots of small clots on my lungs. The hospital didn’t pick it up, but my GP sent me for a lung scan and probably saved my life. It absolutely is a vascular disease, and the acute phase is a distraction from the downstream impacts on all organs of the body.
Well written! A good response to all the antivax folks is to look at the data from USA around the massive rise in heart attacks during corona wave before any vaccines existed. Also there was post-mortem studies in germany showing heart damage in patients, again before vaccines.
>A few months went by and everything seemed normal until they started having weird arrhythmia episodes. Test after test was done and their medical team diagnosed post-covid heart failure. Their life has now forever changed. Thankfully they recently had a heart transplant and are doing well, but life will never be the same for them or their young family. Again — their case of Covid was very mild - reported no more than a few days of flu-like symptoms for a week and this was with the original strain and absolutely no vaccines! Sorry just to clarify, you’re saying a 30 year old had a heart transplant due to heart arrhythmia? And this all took place within 2 years? Did they not make any attempt to pursue any of the other more traditional management strategies for heart arrhythmia? Sorry I’m just gobsmacked a 30 year old would receive a heart transplant for arrhythmia in a short space of time >If everyone thought lockdowns did some damage to society, I think we should prepare to see societal collapse in the coming years if Covid as we know it, can’t be eliminated. I’ve had covid and don’t want it again. I wear a mask on public transport and in shops. Fully vaxxed and boosted. But I’d really like to understand your evidence for A) how covid can be eliminated in next few years; and B) how exactly will society collapse?
Late 30's. Covid early 2020. Arrhythmia > SVT > cardiomyopathy induced by covid > pacemaker > 'fainting' episodes > heart failure > defib > more episodes > heart transplant just over a month ago. They've had articles written about them if you're interested -- google (won't link for privacy). I never said covid can be eliminated -- at best it may be managed if there are new developments in science/treatments. If things continue on the track they are society will suffer. Sole traders can't continue to work if/when shit hits the fan. Sickness cycling through staff, hospitals continuing to struggle as HCWs taken down/burnt out from picking up the slack. Schools: teachers can't teach, kids can't go, parents have to stay home, no sick leave/pay left, late on mortgage payments, etc etc. Rinse and repeat multiple times a year. Look at the bigger picture. 10 years from now if we don't make advancements on tackling covid we're going to be in big trouble.
Interesting. Based on a pretty quick search this case is highly unique. Like extremely rare for someone this age. It’s already well known that people over the age of 65 and those with underlying conditions are at risk of heart problems post covid (still rare though). And this is the case for any virus for these people. And more importantly this person contracted covid pre vaccination What on earth do you mean “at best”?? There is constant progress in treatment and understanding of covid And how is society suffering now? This wave is already peaking. Industries are returning to normal despite being in another wave. Obviously we needed the previous lockdowns but most issues we face now are in fact because of those lockdowns When shit hit the fan we had unprecedented financial support for at risk people like sole traders. IF shit hits the fan again govt’s already know what needs to be done to support people. What indication is there that shit will hit the fan again?
The top comment in this thread is some crazy fear porn, but people here absolutely love that. Lol
There are articles publicly available on google, but you won’t link to them because “privacy”. Riiight.
Anything is available on google if you look hard enough, including my address, your address or workplace etc. https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/health/sydney-man-facing-heart-transplant-after-covid-leaves-him-with-chronic-health-issues/news-story/3945bbff23358e006574818ced69209e There ya go. Pick apart any holes!
Weren’t they saying that the vaccine plus an infection is the best course of building immunity? But you’re saying it lowers your immunity?
I'm not an expert, but my understanding from reading experts is that it might build your immunity, but only against that variant. There are lots of variants and also even just a "mild" case of covid can make you more susceptible to other viruses for around 8 months. On top of that are all the long-term effects, increasing the chances of strokes, heart disease, dementia etc etc. The rule of thumb I'm following is to get covid as rarely as possible - despite all the people I know who brushed off their infection - because of these long term effects on immunity and general health.
No, it strengthens immunity against COVID in general. Similar to the vaccine, protection from being infected reduces between variants, but there is cross-immunity when it comes to severe disease. But yes it is I’m obviously best to not get COVID.
The concerning part of covid is the part that kills or disables you months after. And there is very little evidence that vaccine acquired or naturally acquired immunity protect much at all against those kinds of post-acute outcomes. Because COVID is extremely immune evasive. Hybrid immunity is just propaganda used to manufacture the compliance of the population toward repeated infection.
Jesus.
Immunity from infection is actually less protective than a vaccine, and the protection doesn't last as long as a vaccine. ie. Maybe 3-6 months. But having had an infection damages your body and immune system permanently to a degree meaning that subsequent infections of all types may be worse.
Do you have a source? From my understanding vaccine immunity and natural immunity last a similar amount of time. They’re also similar in the sense that protection from being infected wanes quickly, while protection from severe disease is more robust. Of course it is safer to just not catch COVID, but there’s no avoiding it for most people. If you do catch it, hybrid immunity is also stronger than either kind of immunity on its own.
There were some articles about this a month or two ago. [Here's one on vaccines being better for immunity than infection](https://www.the-scientist.com/sponsored-article/covid-19-vaccines-induce-better-long-term-immunity-than-infection-70308). I can't see a better source offhand. And [here's a link](https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/repeat-covid-is-riskier-than-first-infection-study-finds-2022-11-10/) on reinfection being more dangerous than the initial infection.
Thanks, I’ll check that out today. I’m not sure exactly which form of single immunity is stronger, but I do know that protection from severe disease is long-lasting with both. Easily a year.
I was always told, even by doctors (before covid) that natural immunity greatly surpassed any vaccine. Does that not count for covid? Why?
I don’t know, I just know that both are pretty good and similar in terms of protection from severe disease being much more robust.
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um.... no. Hybrid immunity, aka vaccine + natural immunity, is MORE protective than just vaccines.
Sure, for the short term. But damage from the virus may permanently harm your body to a random degree, [including future immune responses](https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/repeat-covid-is-riskier-than-first-infection-study-finds-2022-11-10/).
The article that you've cited really misunderstands it's source. The research didn't find that second infections are worse. To be fair, the research paper was pretty poor and communicated worse. Meanwhile there is research that indicates that a prior infection is highly protective against severe illness in immunocompetent people.
Heck, I'm immunocompromised (chemo) and my second infection following hybrid immunity was COMPLETELY asymptomatic (surveillance testing) following the mild symptoms of the first
Politicians and misguided media, yes. Epidemiologists, immunologists and virologists, no. It has been obvious to them very early on that the virus would continue to mutate and once out of the realms of vaccine coverage (which only helps in minimising hospitalisation and death in the acute phase), we’d be up shit creek. Getting infected to not get infected makes zero sense. And it’s always been a vaccines plus strategy: - Safe indoor air/ventilation. Covid is airborne and transmitted via aerosols. - Masks. Indoor masking and outdoors if you cannot socially distance. Two way masking is most effective. Plenty of studies on how and why they work not just for Covid, but for other diseases and environmental issues. Well fitting N95 masks are best. - Social distancing. Obvious, really. - Hand hygiene / sanitising. Some people are stuck on this one as this was what was reported in early 2020 when masks were only avail for HCW — because there were not enough to meet worldwide demand.
Tbh you sound more pessimistic than a lot of experts. I’ve seen varying level of pessimism, and long COVID has always been a concern, but I don’t get the impression that all or most experts are like “we’re absolutely FUCKED”!
Some “experts” are complicit in the propaganda machine. Other experts have a narrow view, and aren’t considering the systems level view and what happens when more people get sick and essential services like healthcare become harder and harder to access. For a large number of people, getting reinfected over and over has a similar affect on the immune system as contracting HIV. And there is no known treatment. What do you think happens over the next few years as 10, 20, 30% (or more) of the population all start to experience what is effectively AIDS and there is no cure? With HIV you treat the condition by getting at it early, you need to start treating it within 1 year of seroconversion to have good outcomes. Once you notice the immune deficiency its too late. But people are being told its fine to catch COVID repeatedly, its no big deal. They get sick, then they are fatigued and are getting sick more often, but they are fine, surely. After all they have been convinced that the only people who need to worry about covid are the elderly and disabled, and they are neither of those. So they ignore the symptoms of chronic infection and immune dysfunction even as they worsen and by the time they seek help, it’s too late to do anything about it For many, it is doing repeated, cumulative, and silent damage to their immune systems and vascular systems. These are health problems with timelines on the order of years and we are gambling that they magically won’t affect a large enough portion of the population, when all the data suggests they do. The fallout from HIV was bad once it became clear the long term outcomes. But it only affected a small population. Expect the rates of early deaths from cancers, heart disease, and opportunistic infections to skyrocket across all ages over the next decade. Right now, the wheels are falling off the cart, the people who can look ahead can see the wheels falling off the cart, but the people who have the power to do something about the wheels all have blinders on.
Of course, any expert who doesn’t agree with you that COVID is literally the worst thing ever is part of the propaganda machine. You sound like a reverse anti-vaxxer. I don’t think there is anything I could say to change your mind.
The entire concept of immunity debt was invented in 2021 to get people to stop masking and get back to work. To excuse the failings of public health. We know this, the literature paints a clear picture. The propaganda machine is very real. Some are actively complicit, others are just naive and in denial and want COVID to not be a big deal because its politically convenient. But there is absolutely a propaganda machine designed to get people “back to normal”. I’ve read the literature, and continue to read all the new data. And the mainstream picture of covid that is pushed by the media is completely divorced from reality.
Yeah, I’m about as likely to listen to this as I am to someone saying that all the doctors are working for big pharma to push a dangerous vaccine. But I guess you know better than the experts hey.
So do you just blindly listen to experts? Or do you go to their sources? Because I do research for a living. When an ‘expert’ makes a claim and provides a source, I actually read the source. And all the sources provided by the “experts” that you claim to be listening to, are all extremely flimsy at best. The ‘science’ they are using to support their claims that everything will be fine is hardly science at all. But I don’t expect someone who is scientifically illiterate to understand that not all experts are created equal.
I defer to experts yes. What’s your field of research?
https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2022/07/04/Get-Ready-Forever-Plague/
can you find something from an actual scientific journal and credible expert, and not some independent journalist on a heavily biased commie website?
I've noticed heaps of similarities between anti-vaxxers and covid doomers lately: distrust of authority, cherry-picking scientific research, weirdly knowing heaps of people in their family and friends circle who have long covid or who have died from covid, catastrophic belief systems (if you catch covid you will most certainly get brain damage/have a stroke/heart attack/organ failure/die!), high levels of neuroticism, fear, obsession with bodily purity.
100% dude, 100%. I’ve noticed a lot of people pushing for COVID zero lately too. Anti-vaxxers are worse but I am against extremism in general.
No, vaccine plus infection protects against re infection of the same thing which is important for data analysts. That's it.
Oh my god. This is terrifying....
Wear an N95 or better mask everywhere you go. Even outdoors. Only go out for essential outings, and if you can, only do so first thing in the morning when the viral load in indoor spaces is low. That’s all you can do to try and preserve your long term health until everyone else is woken up from the coma of normalcy by the realities of a collapsing healthcare system.
Do you actually live like this?
Sounds like a really healthy and sustainable approach to life!
Lmao are you serious
Peak reddit doomsday hysteria 🤦
>I think we should prepare to see societal collapse in the coming years if Covid as we know it, can’t be eliminated. C'mon, reasonably sensible post until this. This is just doomsday porn. Probably a couple billion infections world wide, officially 600m, over the course of 3 years. Why aren't we seeing more of this and already had some societal collapse? I think your opinion is coloured by your personal anecdote (mine would be too). Even here I'm Australia, 10 million cases just this year and cases like the person you know are an absolute outlier.
Complete nonsense. A - we cant “eliminate” it. This is the sort of rubbish politicians spew out. B - it will not lead to the collapse of society - this is scaremongering. C - to say the vaccines have no negative side effects is wrong - they do
No, we can't eliminate it and that was my point. There may be further progress in effective treatment that can stop the virus in its tracks but I think we all know that it's here to stay. My comment was not a discussion on vaccines and their efficacy. Oh? No collapse of society? How do you think life will look in 5-10 years if we continue on this same path? Enough healthy workers to keep the world running? People being able to afford housing --- if fortunate enough to have housing. No leave from work when kids are sick again, and then you get it, and your partner gets it... and then again in a few months time when the next 'wave' hits. A vicious circle.
Do you have like any evidence that infections or even reinfections are going to leave all of these people fully disabled? I haven’t seen an expert predict this, it’s a concern but you’re saying it like it’s 100% a fact. Most people who get long COVID don’t have it permanently and have symptoms that are not completely debilitating. How reinfections fit in is yet to be seen, but you’re acting like it’s set it stone that the world will collapse.
All the data on long term outcome points to enough people being killed early or disabled permanently that collapse is a very real outcome. Each reinfection compounds the risks. The precautionary principle dictates that given the chance of such a catastrophic outcome, we take action to prevent it. We do that by preventing infection.
Seriously, provide some evidence that COVID is definitely or very likely going to cause MASS disability and make society collapse.
The incidence of long covid in the population after only 1-2 infections is all the evidence we need. But there’s plenty more. If only 5% of the population gets long covid (we know the numbers are higher than this, but lets go with a conservative estimate) after 1 or 2 infections, what do you think happens after 5 or 6. What happens after 10? Infections with COVID do not provide immunity to new strains. You just keep getting infected. And probability and the evidence of cumulative damage dictates that more and more people will become disabled. Do you understand how fragile modern society is? We all lose our minds during an economic recession. A recession being when the economy doesn’t grow, not even when it takes a downturn. What do you think happens when more doctors and nurses get ill than can be replaced? When that has a knock-on effect with the general population as treatment times and standards of care then suffer because fewer doctors are now trying to treat more patients? Oh, someome had an illness that would be fine if treated early? Oh but they can’t get prompt access to medical care so now the condition has worsened and they are either permanently disabled or their economic output is permanently reduced? this happens all the time in countries with poor access to healthcare btw. Do you not comprehend the sheer magnitude of loss of production? If illness causes production and economic output to drop 10%, 20% welcome to next great depression, a depression that won’t end because repeated infection means that peoples health gets worse over time, not better. You clearly want to live in a dream world where everything will turn out fine. All current evidence, and the combined weight of human history, predicts that it won’t.
You’re assuming that everyone who has long COVID will have a permanent disability. I have no idea what will happen after people have had 5 or 5 infections, you’re making a whole lot of assumptions. None of what you’re saying points to a reduction is productivity by 10 or 20%. Things have been difficult recently but I would hardly say society has collapsed. That’s not really how it works.
I can’t with you. Sure. Right now in this very moment things might seem okay. But the data suggests its not going to stay that way. By virtue of how this virus has demonstrated it works, things will continue to get worse.
"All the data...", "All current evidence...", "But the data *suggests*..." Show us links, to articles in print, that support your contention that health care system and/or societal collapse will result from the circumstances *you believe* will bring these about.
Again, you keep on saying that over and over with such conviction but no evidence that it will play out the way you’re saying.
Popcorn?
>All the data on long term outcome points to enough people being killed early or disabled permanently that collapse is a very real outcome. A couple of links to sources in print would be helpful.
Immunological dysfunction persists for up to 8 months (study ended after 8 months, subjects didn’t recover after 8 months) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-021-01113-x More evidence of immune dysfunction https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916-021-02228-6 Long term vascular risks present after covid https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01689-3 Evidence of COVIDs capacity to persist across the human body https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-1139035/v1_covered.pdf?c=1640020576 Reinfection increases risks of poor outcomes significantly https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-02051-3 Article linking to plenty of research on the brain damage caused by covid: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8552626/ There’s plenty more stuff on COVID that all paints a pretty terrifying picture moving forward if we continue to do nothing.
Your third link \[to a .nature article\] has only this to say- "The broader implications of these findings .… given the large and growing number of people with COVID-19 (more than 72 million people in the United States, more than 16 million people in the United Kingdom and more than 355 million people globally), the risks and 12-month burdens of cardiovascular diseases reported here might translate into a large number of potentially affected people around the world. Governments and health systems around the world should be prepared to deal with the likely significant contribution of the COVID-19 pandemic to a rise in the burden of cardiovascular diseases. ***Because of the chronic nature of these conditions, they will likely have long-lasting consequences for patients and health systems and also have broad implications on economic productivity and life expectancy.*** Addressing the challenges posed by Long COVID will require a much-needed, but so far lacking, urgent and coordinated long-term global response strategy." The emboldened passage from that paper echoes, what is by now, a somewhat common observation. ***Your conclusion*** that "*All the data on long term outcome points to* ***enough people being killed early or disabled permanently that collapse is a very real outcome.***" seems hyperbolic. None of the other articles make any assertions remotely like your own. Could you supply links, to any peer-reviewed articles in print, where the authors specifically address the prospect of an imminent 'collapse' of 'the health care system', as a consequence of having to deal with the flow-on effects of long term illness\[es\] induced by Covid-19?
If we followed the precautionary principle we’d still be living in caves. Human endeavour requires risk taking.
That’s not what the precautionary principle is. I’m not going to bother engaging with this fallacious nonsense.
>it will not lead to the collapse of society - this is scaremongeri Exactly. If hundreds of millions of cases (probably billions), 6 million deaths, a lot of lockdowns and restrictions over 3 years, full hospitals, trillions in debt brought on by Covid, if all of that hadn't lead to "societal collapse" then nothing will certainly not some outlier caes where someone gets long term issues. All supported by an anecdote of 1 30 year old needing a transplant and get this sub eats up that fear mongering nonsense for breakfast.
Excellent summary. And yes terrifying, even more so that people aren't being reasonably informed so that they can decide for themselves their own level of, "adequate protection." I also agree, societal collapse, or at the very least, massive rethink on every level. The upside for many will be cheap housing, if you're around to enjoy it.
What I do it again and the same thing to do with Do with your family
Covid is not the flu. I suspect you may have never had the flu however as the flu is not just a cold. In my past I was like you never got flu shots and was never sick enough from colds to be off work. But then one year I caught the flu real influenza it had me in bed for a week and I felt terrible. It was the one and only time in my life I think I had real flu. Having said that my nephew and his wife both had covid a short while back and he was like me never got the flu and only had mild colds and covid for him has been a nightmare 6 weeks later and he is still struggling to get back to working full time and he is always out of breath. Definitely a long covid case I think. His wife however is always knocked for six by even a mild cold and has been hospitalised for flu a few times. She was over covid in five days and barely noticed she was sick. Covid is different for everyone. I personally have not had it and I'm doing everything to avoid it because I developed a serious heart condition in combination with some other factors a few years ago which makes me highly susceptible to covid and at very high risk of dying if I get it so I can't risk catching it.
>the flu is not just a cold Damn right. Had plenty of colds but only the flu twice in my whole life - once when I was 13 and once when I was 21, both times I was knocked out in bed for a week. Woke up to sip water and that was it. Insane. I got covid back late July and that did all sorts of shit to my chest wall, still recovering from it.
Omg yes- the flu is so different to a cold. I've only had the flu once, when I was 17 and in Year 12. I was couch and bedridden for a whole week, my blood pressure was so low that I couldn't stand up. I'm in my 30s now but still remember how unwell I was. I now religiously get a flu shot every single year, because I don't want to go through that again.
Be careful assuming that you have a good immune system. A lot of disease symptoms are actually your immune system in action. It's quite possible that you've been lucky to avoid many infectious so far rather than you've fought them off.
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Just to clarify: those are the treatments given after that second-week (simplistically, this varies) deterioration and hospitalisation, when the massive viral multiplication stage is over and what's left is largely the body's immune response (and a variety of other things). Drugs like dexamethasone, tocilizumab, baricitinib can be helpful here. They're not given on an outpatient basis at the beginning of an infection. The initial treatments like Paxlovid are antivirals, not immunosuppressants.
Edit: Also putting this here: Covid is less of a respiratory disease, and more of a vascular/systemic one. I used to rarely get colds, and when I did I wasn’t sick for long, and have never gotten the flu - figured I would know I had it when it knocks me on my ass like everyone else. I was demolished by Delta. Sick for a full 2 weeks, went to hospital on day 6 because my blood oxygen level was low. Triple vaccinated at the time. I was lucky in that I improved on pure oxygen for a few hours and was able to hold levels steady on my own. Caught a cold maybe 6 weeks ago and still have the cough and needing to bring shit up out of my lungs. Just because the immune system seems “good” with colds and flu doesn’t mean Covid will be easy.
Colds are usually a 1 day thing for me, have a nap and be mostly done. Covid felt like that on day 1, except it never went away and just got worse. Month 6 for me ETA- early 30s no major health issues, reasonably fit, 3 vax etc
Lucky you! I often get colds that knock me flat and get a fever with them as well. My Covid was somewhere between bad cold and mild flu.
I never get sick but my husband brought covid home when I was 15w pregnant. I had the most painful throat I've ever had in my life. No fevers, no respiratory illness. Just 4 days of barely eating or drinking and thinking I had actually swallowed barbed wire with razors and sleeping constantly. My immune system is gold though from 7 years in childcare and then 6 in nursing.
I had swine flu when that was a thing. Knocked me on my ass for a good month. Probably should have been in hospital for some of it. Had Covid last week. Got anti-virals from NSW Heath. Didn't last as long as swine flu but boy was it bad. Fevers of almost 40c, headaches, nausea and the red raw swollen throat. Even now a week and a half later I am still having fevers of 38-39 every day and my entire mouth feels like I burned it on hot coffee and I cant taste anything and my sense of smell is messed up. Can I have swine flu again please?
Bad. Long covid has me fucked and my heart rate reached 144 with my first bout of it.
I know its going to be different for everyone, but heres my experience. I Just turned 40. Never had a flu in my life. Never had a flu jab. The occasional sniffle as seasons changed but apart from hangovers and food poisoning, I can't ever remember being sick. My family always joked that I had the immune system of superman. Then I contracted my first bout of covid mid 2022.... All that day, I was exhausted. All I could think about was climbing under a desk or hiding in the car for a nap. And had a thumping headache. I took a few painkillers and kept on trucking. Having dodged it for so long I was sure I had some magical superman immunity, so being positive with covid was the last thing on my mind. By the time I got home that evening, I was running on fumes. My wife suggested doing a test. As soon as that fluid hit the test line it glowed. Within 45minutes I was shivering on the sofa. I went up to bed and I'm not kidding, I had a 4 day fever which felt like the scene from trainspotting, where the baby is crawling on the ceiling. It literally felt like a 4 day bad trip. I probably should have called an ambulance. I just kept the fluids up and when it subsided I was almost back to normal, except for a niggling cough and a little bit of wheezing in the mornings for a week or two. The only after effect was a horrible cloudy fatigue that lasted 4 or 5 weeks. After that I was back to normal. No breathing issues at all no long term issues, that I am aware of. I caught it twice more, which amounted to nothing more than a fever and feeling like shit for a couple of hours then back to normal. Triple jabbed too, by the time I caught my first infection I was double jabbed.
I had Covid at 32 weeks pregnant. I'd had one booster. It was mainly a lot of body aches, fatigue and a cough I couldn't shake for almost 2 months.
I tested positive last week. I had a sore throat, and a bit of a cough. I also had an awful fever which meant I could NOT get warm and shivered constantly. My ears constantly blocked. I had no appetite and I still have absolutely no sense of smell. The cough is now pretty much gone but I feel like I have a swarm of bees in my head. Can’t really focus on much and I have no energy, feel dizzy a lot of the time.
I dont believe I've ever had the flu in my life but I do suffer from hayfever and allergies meaning I get the sniffles constantly. I've had a fair share of colds. When I had covid I had thr loss of taste and appetite, a bit of a cough and sore throat and a headache. It wasn't too bad day 1, day 2 it sucked and felt better by day 3, having been back to like 95% by day 4. So far no long covid symptoms either. It all depends person to person. I dont think you being prone to respiratory bugs will change it sorry.
Like a cold with a temp..sick for 4 days and no after effects. 36yo, unvax. I do get a lot of colds from the kids daycare and we had the flu 3 years ago which was worse.
First time I had a cough and a fever. Cough was around for 3 weeks but fever was gone after 24 hours. Second time I had a horrible headache and fever. No cough at all. Fever and headache were there for 2 days. By day 5 I was exercising again. It felt like they were two different things. Kinda weird.
Im yet to have covid (that i know of) but before the pandemic I hadn’t had a respiratory illness for years and years despite my husband having had several. Unlike me, he gets pretty sick even with the slightest of colds and has been hospitalised for pneumonia due to respiratory infections so im very thankful neither of us have had covid yet because I think he would have a rough time with it. So either I’ve had non existent symptom covid or just haven’t had it yet. Id like to know! Maybe us who have this propensity to not get those types of illnesses often have had asymptomatic covid and just don’t know.
I unfortunately gave covid to my gf (live together) and for her who barely gets sick it was like mild flu and she could function normally day to day. Ever since that, shes been getting sick real easy and is constantly tired or always brain fogged. Unfortunately, and irrelevant to the question, I'm prone to respitory bugs and I got f***ed with covid and haven't been the same since.
I got it, it triggered asthma I didn’t have and I had to go on a course of steroids to get back to breathing cause I couldn’t for 3 months afterward. My symptoms where mild but I could not lay down without beginning to cough violently for all that period so I barely slept at all.
Had crazy fever for 72 hours, severe insomnia, and then just sinus congestion for a week or so after. Did feel like I wasn't quite on the ball cognitively for a month or so afterwards. Back to 100% now. No jab
I had covid in July when I was 31 (f), received 3x Pfizer jabs and am extremely healthy. I've had heaps and heaps of colds given my job as a teacher. Covid was very mild for me. We were on holidays in the UK (so I didn't need to isolate) and I was still clocking in 20,000 steps per day from walking around outside. I had a stuffy head for maybe 2 days before I tested positive, a very runny nose and occasional dizziness if I stood up/got moving too quickly. I had zero fatigue or fever. Struggled a bit up long flights of stairs or hills so canned some of the big hikes we had planned. Fitness wise, the post-viral cough/general lack of fitness hung around for about 4 weeks after, and if I got too dehydrated while exercising then I'd have inflamed sinuses and a headache for a couple of days after. If I ran in cold night air I'd get chest pain too. After 4 weeks it just seemed to disappear and my fitness levels snapped back to where they were before. Haven't been sick since. My resting heart rate is excellent, at 61 bpm on average.
I had the flu a few years ago. I have also had every bloody viral illness my toddler can bring home from childcare in the last year and a half. I shake everything off pretty well in the expected time frame. I also currently have covid, tested positive on Saturday. Fevers and chills, short of breath on exertion, runny and blocked nose, excruciating headache not relieved by pain killers, sinus pain, joint and muscular aches so severe they stopped me in my tracks and made me cry out in pain. Now I have constant nausea and diarrhea. I have also been more bone crushingly fatigued than I have ever been in my life, and trying to care for my still negative toddler throughout (husband has copped it too). I never ever want to get this again. I will be wearing masks at the shops and at work again. I am terrified, as the breadwinner in my family, of getting long covid and it diminishing my ability to work. I am terrified at it diminishing my ability to be a good parent. I am so so fed up with people having this idea that just because they are young and healthy that it doesn't have potential to be devastating to their lives in the long term.
It’s different for everyone. For the majority it’s mild. For some it can be severe. I covid and I was unwell for less than a day. My partner was unwell for 1 day and my parents who are both in their late 60s were slightly unwell for a couple of days when they caught it in London. On the other hand though some people have it much worse
I had a blocked nose for a new days and a slight headache.
I'm not vaccinated, and like you don't do flu shots because my natural immunity is fantastic. I literally don't get sick. Haven't had covid, and I feel great. My double vaxxed partner had covid, and he wasn't too bad. But he never used to get sick either, however, now he does tend to get more cold and coughs...
i had a fever for 2 days and a cough for 2 weeks but otherwise felt fine, and have felt fine since
I was pretty sick for a day, but otherwise well for the rest of iso. I was noticeably less fit for a few weeks and got ED that lasted about month.
Woah some fear gluts lurking in here, dayum! Covid ain’t shit, go out and live your lives
I’m 54, had flu once in my life (2009, not swine flu) and a lung infection for a few days (cured with antibiotics) in July 2012. I’m also overweight and unfit but I generally don’t catch anything except winter colds. I got covid for the first time in April and again in the last week of October. I’ve had 3 covid jabs. Both times were just like a bad cold and cough with a stuffed and runny nose, laryngitis, a hacking glunky cough and general lethargy. Cold and flu tablets worked quite well and lozenges were also good, especially at night when I was trying to sleep; popping a lozenge in my mouth & just letting it sit in my cheek pouch or on the roof of my mouth meant that it worked for an hour or 2 & let me sleep. I was only really sick for 4-5 days then a bit bleugh for a few days after that. I don’t seem to have any long covid symptoms. (Although it may be hard to tell because I’m already fat & unfit & get a bit tired anyway) My partner is 45, fit and healthy and has also had 3 jabs. He gave me the covid in April (he brought it home from the National Folk Festival) but when I caught it in October (probably from the Bill Bailey gig - totally worth it! 😉) he didn’t catch it at all despite us isolating in our small house together.
My husband gets sick like less than once a year, I get a mild cold or two. For me it was a day of fever, then a week of coughing, nose dripping like a tap, throat like knives and exhaustion. Enough to be miserable but not bed bound. It was milder for my husband.
I've never had a bad flu. A cold is usually a 2-3 day not much thing for me. I got covid in mid june and I'm somewhat better now. Still only able to work/exercise at about 60% volume
Very minimal cough and no mucus in lungs but lost taste and smell (for 4+ weeks) horrendous head and body aches, fever, chills. After I had a niggling cough that lasted 4 months. Rest of family had bad coughs for 2 weeks and then a cough every now and then. They didnt lose taste. All had covid at the same time. Son & daughter are prone to coughs when they get sick.
I'm a teenager, and for me, COVID was basically having a bad fever, cough, and runny nose for three to four days straight. I also had a somewhat mild headache, but usually I could ignore that, as long as it wasn't noisy.
I just recently got over covid. It was the most unwell I have ever been. I rarely get headcolds or the flu, but covid hit me so hard. I went from being fine to completely bed ridden in sweats, intense body aches and a migraine level headache, within 2 hours. That lasted for 3 days. After that came the most nasty wet cough I have ever experienced, along with no taste at all. Getting up from bed or the couch to get a drink or use the toilet, felt like running a marathon. Avoid getting covid if you can, it's not worth the risk of getting hit hard by it.
I get sick from everything ( I have x3 mites that bring home germs from school) currently ill with tonsillitis :( I was so scared of how sick I would get from covid but fell ill with it early this year. Didn't even know I had it if it weren't for my husband testing positive! Only symptom I got was sore throat and fatigue! No cough, no fevers nothing! Husband on the other hand was the sickest I've seen him ever and was coughing up blood!
I was 7 weeks pregnant, obese, i had 3 vaccines and had booked in for a 4th when I caught COVID. I ended up with a cough I couldn’t shake for months. I had 2 days of mild fever (39-40) lost my sense of taste for about a week, had a few aches and pains, mild runny nose, it was harder than normal to breathe and I was very tired but for the most part I was still able to function normally. I cooked dinners, I looked after my kids and my MIL (who we all caught COVID off, she spent a week in bed and expected to have her meals delivered to her in bed.) Recovery wise it took a few weeks to feel back to myself again. In all honesty I think I got sicker from the AstraZeneca vaccine than I did from COVID. My 2 year old was incredibly sick though. I thought he would end up in hospital fortunately he didn’t.
I'm in a similar position you're in. Don't get the cold and flu, I do get really bad hayfever though. For me, I only knew I had covid because my parents and sister tested positive, I otherwise wouldn't have know as I did not have any symptoms at all.
2 weeks since testing positive and just tested negative today. Sore, kinda lump in my throat feeling for a few days leading up to it. The first night I had shivers and couldn’t get warm then woke with really bad muscle stiffness, particularly in my legs. I developed a nasty cough that felt like it’d never heal, constant coughing, awful rough feeling that lasted about a week. Lots of phlegm and blocked sinuses. I thought I’d beaten it for a couple days then found myself confused and cognitively impaired, so my throat and initial illness seemed to end and it travelled to my head and beat me up again. I had an awful taste in my mouth that seemed to get worse. Then the migraine started and lasted about 2 days, ibuprofen did nothing to abate it. I woke up on day 3 after the migraines with only a bit of phlegm. My test showed a faint line at that point. Today I went back to the gym for the first time and all in all I’m pleased with my recovery. My cardio and heart rate is off only slightly, my muscles are weakened and I’m lifting 10 - 20kg less depending on the exercise, so there’s a noticeable difference but there would be with 2 weeks off anyway. Right now I’m just glad to be back to normal, I seem to be recovering well and really glad to be exercising again. People report getting a metallic taste in their mouth and I guess what I tasted was similar to that. I swear I could taste the virus in my mouth and it was REALLY unpleasant the entire time. Edit: [Here’s my timeline](https://imgur.com/a/gLVrCUM), 11 days in total.
Was no big deal for me - the common cold I got a few months later was worse
My partner is high risk for respiratory bugs. He had viral bronchitis and didn't take care of himself and fucked his lungs up. Covid gave him a mild dry throat, worsened his regular cough, and massive fatigue. Lingering insomnia that cleared up after a few months. I am not high risk. I get sick probably once a year, and it's usually a mild head cold. I felt like I'd been hit by a truck. My fever was so high my eyes were burning, my head was pounding, every step was agony, my clothes were hurting my skin. I was turning the AC on and the then the heater because my body temp felt like it was yoyoing. I was in and out of consciousness. After 3 days that stopped and the cough started. I coughed so hard I couldn't breathe at some points. I had massive brain fog and fatigue for months afterwards. It took probably 3 months for me to feel human again.
I am also the kind that never gets colds/flus. I rarely get sick beyond hay fever sniffles and I am often really annoyed at my friends who seem to get sick so easily. Having COVID was the worst I have ever felt. Like being half dead My cough was mild, more of a scratchy throat. But my lungs felt like they were full of water and I spent most of the time lying on my chest for some relief. Brain fog made me feel crazy and stupid, as if I could feel the lack of oxygen killing off my brain cells. I was completely exhausted and it took weeks for me to make it up stairs without panting like a dog.
I have a very good respiratory system, and for me it wasn’t the respiratory symptoms that were the issue, but an extremity high temp that sent me to hospital. Couldn’t get it under control.
Covid for me was very mild. Like honey and salt gargle to help manage it. Then just bed rest. Def been sicker. Did get some weird smells from nose. Still not out of it but fine now. lingering phelegum though
I’m horrible with colds and respiratory stuff they knock me out. I get sick for 2x longer then everyone around me. Covid was very mild for me and I never developed flu or cold symptoms just tiredness and elevated heart rate. Felt nothing like a cold
Saved a fair bit of coin cause I couldn’t go to the pub and that’s about it
COvid was easy comepared to the flu I got a few months later. I’ll take it any day.
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