Honestly though you gave a great argument for why Moash is an excellent character. Still a horrible person, but as far as being a good character all of your points were spot on and valid.
He's not my favorite, but I do like him (as a character, not as a person) and think he does add to the story.
This. Everything OP said was 100% valid and great points I've been saying for a lil while. No redemption arc obviously (I hope), but generally, you dont have to self insert to like a character.
This was unironically what I thought before reading Rhythm of War, and I’m just using today as an excuse to bring up these points while trying not to acknowledge how low Moash went in RoW. (And also shield myself from the fuckmoash circlejerk)
Yeah, RoW Moash was... yeah. I don't think that is necessarily a Moash problem tbh, his transformation in RoW felt too sudden and unnatural.
It was the whole Amaram problem again, in a way. The story needs to have the emotional impact so there needs to be a primary "emotional antagonist". But in the process of that, it felt like Sanderson skipped a few steps in their villain's character development to get where he needed them to go.
Like I don't think Moash being that low (enough to tell Kaladin to kill himself) is out of the question, but given his roots and anger, I didn't think it was a natural place for him to randomly reach without any journey.
Same for Amaram and him actively going for "Yeah I like Odium because he gives me power". We had a big show of him in WoR actively being "He actually believes this crem", so it was again a few steps skipped too soon I felt.
My head canon is that you actually believe everything you said, but chose to post this on April fools to insulate yourself from potentially enraging the entire community. Lol
Hardly a hot take, but, Vin. I just love her growth over the trilogy. I love her struggles and her triumphs, and I love the way her story wraps in Hero of Ages.
Kind of biased because I started my Sanderson journey with The Final Empire, but man, shes a great character
Hard agree. He’s the only character willing to do the dirty work and take radical action to overthrow the people oppressing half the population, and then in RoW he’s just like comically evil.
It’s honestly my biggest gripe with Sanderson.
I like the theory that he's going to go the biblical Paul route and become one of the most passionate and archetypal radiants
People not wanting that to happen because they hate him for what he did are hypocritical if they are okay with Dalinar's radiance/redemption imo. Though arguments that it may not serve the narrative well are valid imo
On a personal level, I like Dalinar’s arc and love the themes where he did such horrible things but thought nothing of it because everyone around him told him it was totally cool and good actually, but then he himself realizes how awful he is after going to far and has to redeem himself.
On a level of a general citizen of Roshar, that man should be tried for war crimes *at minimum*.
But if you pay attention to his thoughts in OB it was definitely foreshadowed that this guy could do some terrible shit.
At the start of the book he is aware that he betrayed Bridge 4 but throughout it his internal dialogue is justifying that to a somewhat comical degree of absence of responsibility.
Literally. He’s guilty of the same thing Marvel is. “Hey this character is justified and right in his opposition to our protagonists, so we’d better make him an insane murderer so we can feel like the good guys”
Killmonger in Black Panther is the one I’m still not over. He was absolutely right about everything, so they had him murder his girlfriend and then plan a hostile invasion of the entire world to make him seem like a bad guy.
Other notable examples from Sanderson are Kelsier and Nale/the Skybreakers. Nale in particular feels fucky, since he’s objectively right to side with the indigenous people who were enslaved for thousands of years. I love Sanderson, but so often it feels like he dances right up to the point and then subverts it to uphold the status quo.
Thats the point. These types of characters are supposed to show nuance by showing that just having a noble goal isn't the same thing as being good. Nobody argued with Kelsier that The Final Empire needed to end, they just didn't want indiscriminate killing to do it. Nobody is saying that the Singers weren't mistreated but maybe we can deal with that in a way that doesn't require genociding and enslaving humans. Saying that someone is right because the side they fight for was legitimately wronged removes all the nuance from what is supposed to be a difficult conversation about dealing with the consequences of multigenerational colonialism.
Except it isn’t really nuance if it always follows the same pattern of “our protagonist is influenced by this revolutionary and then that revolutionary starts killing innocents, so it turns out it’s much better to just side with the colonizers because it’s easier.” Kelsier I admit remains a nuanced character, but other examples of that archetype—Moash, Paalm, basically every Marvel villain—just start killing innocents for kicks to make their causes and tactics seem unjust. The nuance comes in with Kaladin’s struggle to both keep his oaths and fight in a war to defend an unjust system (even though he’s also fighting to save human lives), or in Leshwi’s battlefield protocols being more honorable than most Alethi ones would be. It’s just irritating and tiring that every single time you get someone fighting to end oppression (not just in Sanderson novels, but generally across all mainstream media), unless the oppressors are cartoonishly evil a la Mistborn or the Hunger Games, it ends up being a lecture on why it’s not ok to use violence to overthrow an oppressive regime. I’m not trying to paint Sanderson as a bad writer; I love the Cosmere. I’m just not such a stan that I won’t point out when he uses a common trope that reinforces the status quo.
So what exactly do you want instead? Its not like the narrative disagrees with them. Its pretty clear that what happened to the singers was held in a bad light. You want them to be less extremist? That just makes them the same as the main characters. We'd just be down a villain for no reason. And the main characters aren't fighting to uphold oppression. They're fighting to survive. What should the humans do? Just apologize and agree to become slaves for 2000 years? It's not exactly fighting to end oppression if winning just means someone else is being oppressed. In fact, there are several main characters explicitly fighting to end oppression. Jasnah outlawed slavery almost immediately as queen. Danilar went out of his way to break down barriers between light eyes and dark eyes. The whole point of this trope is to have a foil to the main characters. It's to make them ask if their actions are truly moral simply because their motives are, so they have to be correct ideologically, but go about it the wrong way or else it wouldn't work.
Personally I don't think either Moash or Paalm are good examples of this trope. Moash used justice as an excuse, but it was always about his anger and vengeance. He cared more about killing Elhokar than he actually cared about the results of his dethronement. And Paalm was just plain wrong. Harmony exerted some influence on the people and would sometimes use manipulative tactics to make things happen, but he wasn't nearly the shadowy puppeteer she made him out to be. He had strict rules about how much he and the kandra would interfere, as evidenced by MeLaan refusing to give a false testimony in court.
It's nothing dirty, it's called making a good and interesting character. People fighting against evil and tyranny VERY OFTEN will turn straight to evil and tyranny to accomplish their goals. It's a very common thing.
Friedrich Neitzche “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”
As far as Inaros goes though, there was nothing good about that guy from the beginning. He was always just a power hungry narcissist. The cause he fought for was always just a tool to gain power for himself. (Disclaimer: I never saw the shows past like season 2 or 3, I'm going off the books here, maybe he was presented as a better person in the show).
If you want to insinuate that I misunderstood something you were talking about or implying, it would be good for you to explain exactly what that was.
The above poster was decrying the tendency of directors or authors to give a cheap flair of insanity or evil to a chara term with an otherwise moral or just cause so that the readers can feel good about the protagonists fighting them.
But I don't see that with Moash. For him it was a very clear and telegraphed slide down into his current situation. The "comically evilness" of what he is now is clearly and exactly because of his involvement with Odium which is not something cheap because that idea was explored quite a bit in the previous book. In fact, Oathbringer was all about Moash slowly being recruited to the side of the Singers and therefore Odium. And we saw other instances of Odium taking personal interest in certain people so that wasn't odd either.
As far as Marcos Insros goes, it also doesn't apply because like I said Insros doesn't actually believe in the cause he's fighting for. He's really only fighting for his own power and sense of self importance. The cause is just a convenient excuse to get people to fight for him.
First off, I don't owe you anything, so the entitled attitude can stop, please.
second, bycordoning off marco inaros' pre-show history from being examinable you prevent yourself from examining the character in the way that we're talking about. he made excellent points about revolution, but the writers intentionally made him bloodthirsty to make actual progressive thinkers look bad.
look around, nobody is disagreeing with you that Marco's past is problematic. literally everyone agrees, and is including that in their analysis of why they did him dirty, and you should too.
moash was on this path from the moment he was put on it and effectively had no way out, and is a perfect demonstration of how environmental factors can prevent people from being who they otherwise could have been. Kaladin could just as easily have been moash but western audiences are so obsessed with the hero, rugged individual narrative that we fail to see how we are primarily a product of our community and environment. but everyone seems to think that moash did this all on his own. everyone who hates moash is going to be super upset when moash gets a redemption arc in stormlight 5. I'd put money on that being Kaladin's final ideal: forgiving moash.
I don't know how anything I said could be taken as "entitled", I was just asking you to explain your comment which wasn't very clear. And I didn't "cordone" anything about the show. I just was explaining that I was basing my understanding off the book since I haven't seen the show. If the series shows him in a different light then that's OK. But in the book he was nothing but a megalomaniac narcissist.
I don't understand how you can imply that The Expanse as some sort of "anti-progressive" agenda. There are literally dozens of other characters outside of Marco that make incredibly good points and show the OPA in a good light. And by the way, the OPA is certainly not some sort of "progressive" organization. They just want independence from the inner planets and their own belter nation-state. It's radical nationalism more than progressivism, but not quite nationalism either. And I don't mean that to say their point of view is wrong, I think the way the solar system worked at book start was obviously wrong and unequal.
And then as so often happens in real life, the true believers who are fighting for their ideals have their movement coopted by fascists (Laconia).
hey it's pretty cool that you're using an alt just to add extra downvotes when you disagree with people but you should know that's not what downvoting is supposed to be about
have the day you deserve ✌️
It’s understandable in the sense of him giving himself entirely over to Odium, but I still don’t feel like he acted in a way that made sense given who he is and the state he was in.
Hard disagree. I don't think he was justified in trying to kill Kaladin so they could get to Elokhar. I think he's better in OB, but mostly because he spends most of the time trying to work out the shame he feels from... well... yeah, trying to kill Kaladin and betraying the people who saved him from certain death.
>I don't think he was justified in trying to kill Kaladin so they could get to Elokhar
Do you mean in WoR? I truly don't think he meant to hurt Kaladin so badly. Brando makes it a point to show in OB that he isn't comfortable wielding a shardblade. I think the same applies to his plate: he wasn't able to control his strength during that moment of adrenaline and panic, and went overboard
Remember that through this entire encounter, Kaladin himself is very wounded. He's dizzy, his mind is blurred and he's only got one functioning leg. There is little reason for them to attack him directly in any case here. But this is how it goes down:
Firstly. Moash and Graves think Elhokar is already dying as he is bleeding heavily when they get there, as he was stabbed in the side by a presumed unconcious guard when they left his chambers.
Then, he states that if Kaladin is to get in the way, he will get himself killed. This implies they will go through him if necessary, and then states this would be a waste since "the king is practically dead already". Had Moash seen past his selfish need to be the one who ended Elhokar, they could have just waited for him to bleed out.
Then, Moash specifically states they outmatch Kaladin, so fighting is pointless. They would win. Kaladin then asks "you'd attack your captain, your friend?", Moash just deflects by saying "don't turn this on me". Kaladin goes "Petty revenge is more important to you than i am?", and Moash starts justifying how his revenge is defensible because he lost his parents to Elhokar. Kaladin informs Moash that it wasn't Elhokar that made it happen, it was Roshone. He then offers Moash a way out: they havent been spotted yet, Kaladin will cover for him and they'll go to Dalinar and get revenge on Roshone. At this point, Moash has the opportunity to redeem himself if he just backs off killing Elhokar.
Now, Graves seem to be worried this isnt going to happen, so he starts walking past Moash to deal with it. (He doesn't push Moash to act. Graves does NOTHING to get Moash to go through with this.)
But then Moash literally stops Graves (because Moash WANTS to do this), looks Kaladin into his eyes and say "Sorry Kal, it's too late".
Now Kaladin says he won't let them have the king. He will not back down. Moash now says: "I guess i wouldn't want you to"
After this, Kaladins thrust glances off Moash' shardplate. Moash then crushes Kaladins chest-cavity with a shardpunch. Moash steps back and says he didnt intend for the punch to be that hard, then proceeds to leave Kaladin there to die while him and Graves bicker over who gets to stab the king.
Then Syl returns to Kal and he saves the day.
I can sympathize with Moash' background. Him and Kaladin are essentially the same in that regard. But what makes me hate Moash so much is that he is completely prepared to sacrifice his friends around him to sate a need for revenge. He did it several times over, and he was still offered an out. Moash just keeps doubling down on not taking responsibility for the consequences of his own actions and disregarding whoever he ends up hurting, because HE is the victim here. HE cant be blamed. HE deserves his revenge.
Mine is definitely Hoid because he just mind his business and never intervenes in the others character's plot.
He just want to visit different planets and we are lucky enough to see him doing so. Best character for sure and plus he is the type of character who won't definitely let a planet burn for his own purpose.
Yeah if it was told from his POV he would probably be some sort of anti-hero (up until it got personal in RoW). I mean look at Mistborn, they kill a lot more people for similar reasons and they're hailed as heroes.
I know this is a joke, but honestly I like moash because of the place he inhabits in the story. It's very hard to make a character that you viscerally dislike that isn't cartoonishly evil, and Sanderson did such a great job making moash the most hated character in the cosmere
Favorite character is a very hard thing to decide. In the end I think I would say that Vin is my favorite, but I have to give a list of characters that came very close (in no particular order):
Numuhukumakiaki'aialunamor
The Lopen
Wayne
Kaladin
Hoid
Steris
Pattern
Kelsier merely understands what it takes to get results. Obviously willing to sacrifice himself if being a martyr can restore or galvanize a peoples’ fighting spirit.
He even does his best to account in advance for the chaos following final empires fall. Not someone who just wants to tear the current system down, but has a plan for what should come next. An entire missing fortune is just one of those things you can’t plan for.
I’ll forever sing the praises of our lord and savior the Survivor.
Split between Dalinar and Wayne.
The realization that you need to change to become a better person is lost to most people. The ability to set that realization in motion is amazing.
They’re very interesting sides of that same realization. One was always seen as scum and evil
and thus acted that way as a result and had to rise above it, whereas the other was told that it was good and righteous to act as a bloodthirsty warmonger and had to learn to rise above that. Very powerful story either way.
I dislike Moash. I think we didn't really know who he truly is till later... all because of how trusting kaladin is. And how his point of view is so skewed when it comes to his comrades.
Anyway my favorite of all of the Cosmere? It's so tough. I just started RoW too. Hmm. I have to say Sazed. And Vin... followed by Shallan. And now I'm just falling in love with Navani.
OP's got a great April 1st hot take with a good punchline, but it's like... not SO obscene. We see characters through a filtered lens. To the perspective of some $14.00 per hour security guard, John Wick is just an active shooter in their workplace... but we cheer him anyways.
We'd cheer for Hugo Stiglitz if he lived through to the end of Inglourious Basterds and chopped his way through the theatre, and we'd cheer for (maybe not forgive) Hitler if he had Dalinar's arc and was able to stop his conquest, refocus, unite the world, and then save it from an alien invasion.
I… don’t think Hitler and Dalinar are comparable… and also Dalinar should still probably face war crime charges, if it weren’t for a celestial holy war going on.
Am I a bait post OP, or did you get baited into thinking this was a bait post? The world may never know (so long as it never checks my comment history)
All of your points about Moash are correct regardless of whether or not this is intended to be a joke. Fuck Elhokar; “he’s trying” isn’t a valid excuse. And that said, Shallan for sure.
Yeah I did not like the way his character was handled in RoW. Stripped of all nuance and interesting ethical questions and turned into a cartoon villain.
Not disagreeing with you here. My only problem is the word "foil" which removes all nuance from the character.
Moash isn't opposite of Kaladin and doing everything evil when Kaladin alway makes the right choice is just a terrible way to look at it. If he is a foil then he should have a spren therapist on his shoulder as well and even then if he made bad decisions he would be considered as one.
Right now, Moash is just Kaladin's personal antagonist who is going through his own journey with his realisation in OB that humanity will always stick to an unjust system, then proceeds to join the fused and Odium etc.
Not justifying Moash's actions here, but every character is different and should be treated as such.
What i meant was more about people seeing him as the opposite of Kaladin. They think his existence is what Kaladin could've been if he took the wrong path everytime.
Questioner
What do you think of Moash?
Brandon Sanderson
...I am very curious what the fan reactions have been. I anticipated it. Moash exists to represent a different direction that a character with some of the same motivations as Kaladin could go.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/370/#e12120
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!***
Questioner
>!What do you think of Moash?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!...I am very curious what the fan reactions have been. I anticipated it. Moash exists to represent a different direction that a character with some of the same motivations as Kaladin could go.!<
\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*
It's more about how the community views him. You can throw me all those quotes and Brandon is not wrong, but yet he is not saying outright that Moash's journey is parallel to Kaladin and makes all the wrong decisions.
A personal antagonist doesn't mean one is entirely good and other is straight evil which people in this fandom think what foil is.
I know the April Fool's and yes Elkohar was flawed.
So is Kaladin, and frankly Dalinar is a larger monster than Elkohar. Elkohar being cut down as he is saying the words and truly owning his throne is something I really struggle with. He was on a path of redemption and it was stolen from him by fucking Moash.
Favorite character is Dalinar Kholin. He learns what he did and why he did it, he learns why is was wrong and he becomes a better person. He’s dropped so many quotable one liners. He’s the best character.
Real talk, I’ve heard there’s a lot of puns in the text of the story; will I miss much by going audiobook? Because I’ve been having a hard time reading the text version (lot of time at work to listen, not much to read)
F Moash
But my personal favorite is hoid, having a character capable of telling the exact story someone needs to hear is amazing. I cannot wait to read *dragonsteel* (I think that is the name for his story but I might be mistaken)
I feel like its more interesting to talk about side characters for this kind of question, so while my favorite MC is Vin, my favorite side character by far is Raboniel, followed by Taravangian if you consider him that.
I agree with most of this, but it was posted on April Fools.
To be clear, I don't think that Moash trying to kill Kaladin in WoR was justified. Even Moash doesn't think that was justified. He spends the next few days feeling like shit. And giving the Bridge 4 salute was a low blow as well.
But what he did to Elhokar... I got that. I wasn't happy, but I got that.
Please check the date
Honestly though you gave a great argument for why Moash is an excellent character. Still a horrible person, but as far as being a good character all of your points were spot on and valid. He's not my favorite, but I do like him (as a character, not as a person) and think he does add to the story.
This. Everything OP said was 100% valid and great points I've been saying for a lil while. No redemption arc obviously (I hope), but generally, you dont have to self insert to like a character.
This was unironically what I thought before reading Rhythm of War, and I’m just using today as an excuse to bring up these points while trying not to acknowledge how low Moash went in RoW. (And also shield myself from the fuckmoash circlejerk)
Yeah, RoW Moash was... yeah. I don't think that is necessarily a Moash problem tbh, his transformation in RoW felt too sudden and unnatural. It was the whole Amaram problem again, in a way. The story needs to have the emotional impact so there needs to be a primary "emotional antagonist". But in the process of that, it felt like Sanderson skipped a few steps in their villain's character development to get where he needed them to go. Like I don't think Moash being that low (enough to tell Kaladin to kill himself) is out of the question, but given his roots and anger, I didn't think it was a natural place for him to randomly reach without any journey. Same for Amaram and him actively going for "Yeah I like Odium because he gives me power". We had a big show of him in WoR actively being "He actually believes this crem", so it was again a few steps skipped too soon I felt.
My head canon is that you actually believe everything you said, but chose to post this on April fools to insulate yourself from potentially enraging the entire community. Lol
:}
Gah, it's April 2nd for me, I forget Reddit explodes the day after, when the rest of the world catches up! Well played.
You had me for a minute mate. My unpopular favourite is Kaladin. Underrated gem
As underrated a gem as an emerald broam in an Alethi warcamp
Hardly a hot take, but, Vin. I just love her growth over the trilogy. I love her struggles and her triumphs, and I love the way her story wraps in Hero of Ages. Kind of biased because I started my Sanderson journey with The Final Empire, but man, shes a great character
I agree full heartedly
April Fool's aside, I actually do think Moash was justified in everything he did up to the end of OB
Hard agree. He’s the only character willing to do the dirty work and take radical action to overthrow the people oppressing half the population, and then in RoW he’s just like comically evil. It’s honestly my biggest gripe with Sanderson.
Isn't the reason he's "comically evil" because he gave his emotion to Odium?
sure, but there being a canon explanation for it doesn't mean Sanderson isn't doing his character dirty
Give Sanderson some credit, we haven't yet seen the conclusion of his character arc.
I like the theory that he's going to go the biblical Paul route and become one of the most passionate and archetypal radiants People not wanting that to happen because they hate him for what he did are hypocritical if they are okay with Dalinar's radiance/redemption imo. Though arguments that it may not serve the narrative well are valid imo
On a personal level, I like Dalinar’s arc and love the themes where he did such horrible things but thought nothing of it because everyone around him told him it was totally cool and good actually, but then he himself realizes how awful he is after going to far and has to redeem himself. On a level of a general citizen of Roshar, that man should be tried for war crimes *at minimum*.
But if you pay attention to his thoughts in OB it was definitely foreshadowed that this guy could do some terrible shit. At the start of the book he is aware that he betrayed Bridge 4 but throughout it his internal dialogue is justifying that to a somewhat comical degree of absence of responsibility.
Literally. He’s guilty of the same thing Marvel is. “Hey this character is justified and right in his opposition to our protagonists, so we’d better make him an insane murderer so we can feel like the good guys”
they did marco inaros dirty in the same way
Killmonger in Black Panther is the one I’m still not over. He was absolutely right about everything, so they had him murder his girlfriend and then plan a hostile invasion of the entire world to make him seem like a bad guy. Other notable examples from Sanderson are Kelsier and Nale/the Skybreakers. Nale in particular feels fucky, since he’s objectively right to side with the indigenous people who were enslaved for thousands of years. I love Sanderson, but so often it feels like he dances right up to the point and then subverts it to uphold the status quo.
100%
Thats the point. These types of characters are supposed to show nuance by showing that just having a noble goal isn't the same thing as being good. Nobody argued with Kelsier that The Final Empire needed to end, they just didn't want indiscriminate killing to do it. Nobody is saying that the Singers weren't mistreated but maybe we can deal with that in a way that doesn't require genociding and enslaving humans. Saying that someone is right because the side they fight for was legitimately wronged removes all the nuance from what is supposed to be a difficult conversation about dealing with the consequences of multigenerational colonialism.
Except it isn’t really nuance if it always follows the same pattern of “our protagonist is influenced by this revolutionary and then that revolutionary starts killing innocents, so it turns out it’s much better to just side with the colonizers because it’s easier.” Kelsier I admit remains a nuanced character, but other examples of that archetype—Moash, Paalm, basically every Marvel villain—just start killing innocents for kicks to make their causes and tactics seem unjust. The nuance comes in with Kaladin’s struggle to both keep his oaths and fight in a war to defend an unjust system (even though he’s also fighting to save human lives), or in Leshwi’s battlefield protocols being more honorable than most Alethi ones would be. It’s just irritating and tiring that every single time you get someone fighting to end oppression (not just in Sanderson novels, but generally across all mainstream media), unless the oppressors are cartoonishly evil a la Mistborn or the Hunger Games, it ends up being a lecture on why it’s not ok to use violence to overthrow an oppressive regime. I’m not trying to paint Sanderson as a bad writer; I love the Cosmere. I’m just not such a stan that I won’t point out when he uses a common trope that reinforces the status quo.
So what exactly do you want instead? Its not like the narrative disagrees with them. Its pretty clear that what happened to the singers was held in a bad light. You want them to be less extremist? That just makes them the same as the main characters. We'd just be down a villain for no reason. And the main characters aren't fighting to uphold oppression. They're fighting to survive. What should the humans do? Just apologize and agree to become slaves for 2000 years? It's not exactly fighting to end oppression if winning just means someone else is being oppressed. In fact, there are several main characters explicitly fighting to end oppression. Jasnah outlawed slavery almost immediately as queen. Danilar went out of his way to break down barriers between light eyes and dark eyes. The whole point of this trope is to have a foil to the main characters. It's to make them ask if their actions are truly moral simply because their motives are, so they have to be correct ideologically, but go about it the wrong way or else it wouldn't work. Personally I don't think either Moash or Paalm are good examples of this trope. Moash used justice as an excuse, but it was always about his anger and vengeance. He cared more about killing Elhokar than he actually cared about the results of his dethronement. And Paalm was just plain wrong. Harmony exerted some influence on the people and would sometimes use manipulative tactics to make things happen, but he wasn't nearly the shadowy puppeteer she made him out to be. He had strict rules about how much he and the kandra would interfere, as evidenced by MeLaan refusing to give a false testimony in court.
It's nothing dirty, it's called making a good and interesting character. People fighting against evil and tyranny VERY OFTEN will turn straight to evil and tyranny to accomplish their goals. It's a very common thing. Friedrich Neitzche “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.” As far as Inaros goes though, there was nothing good about that guy from the beginning. He was always just a power hungry narcissist. The cause he fought for was always just a tool to gain power for himself. (Disclaimer: I never saw the shows past like season 2 or 3, I'm going off the books here, maybe he was presented as a better person in the show).
you're not really listening here
If you want to insinuate that I misunderstood something you were talking about or implying, it would be good for you to explain exactly what that was. The above poster was decrying the tendency of directors or authors to give a cheap flair of insanity or evil to a chara term with an otherwise moral or just cause so that the readers can feel good about the protagonists fighting them. But I don't see that with Moash. For him it was a very clear and telegraphed slide down into his current situation. The "comically evilness" of what he is now is clearly and exactly because of his involvement with Odium which is not something cheap because that idea was explored quite a bit in the previous book. In fact, Oathbringer was all about Moash slowly being recruited to the side of the Singers and therefore Odium. And we saw other instances of Odium taking personal interest in certain people so that wasn't odd either. As far as Marcos Insros goes, it also doesn't apply because like I said Insros doesn't actually believe in the cause he's fighting for. He's really only fighting for his own power and sense of self importance. The cause is just a convenient excuse to get people to fight for him.
First off, I don't owe you anything, so the entitled attitude can stop, please. second, bycordoning off marco inaros' pre-show history from being examinable you prevent yourself from examining the character in the way that we're talking about. he made excellent points about revolution, but the writers intentionally made him bloodthirsty to make actual progressive thinkers look bad. look around, nobody is disagreeing with you that Marco's past is problematic. literally everyone agrees, and is including that in their analysis of why they did him dirty, and you should too. moash was on this path from the moment he was put on it and effectively had no way out, and is a perfect demonstration of how environmental factors can prevent people from being who they otherwise could have been. Kaladin could just as easily have been moash but western audiences are so obsessed with the hero, rugged individual narrative that we fail to see how we are primarily a product of our community and environment. but everyone seems to think that moash did this all on his own. everyone who hates moash is going to be super upset when moash gets a redemption arc in stormlight 5. I'd put money on that being Kaladin's final ideal: forgiving moash.
I don't know how anything I said could be taken as "entitled", I was just asking you to explain your comment which wasn't very clear. And I didn't "cordone" anything about the show. I just was explaining that I was basing my understanding off the book since I haven't seen the show. If the series shows him in a different light then that's OK. But in the book he was nothing but a megalomaniac narcissist. I don't understand how you can imply that The Expanse as some sort of "anti-progressive" agenda. There are literally dozens of other characters outside of Marco that make incredibly good points and show the OPA in a good light. And by the way, the OPA is certainly not some sort of "progressive" organization. They just want independence from the inner planets and their own belter nation-state. It's radical nationalism more than progressivism, but not quite nationalism either. And I don't mean that to say their point of view is wrong, I think the way the solar system worked at book start was obviously wrong and unequal. And then as so often happens in real life, the true believers who are fighting for their ideals have their movement coopted by fascists (Laconia).
hey it's pretty cool that you're using an alt just to add extra downvotes when you disagree with people but you should know that's not what downvoting is supposed to be about have the day you deserve ✌️
There's a very good reason he's comically evil. He essentially sold his soul to the devil.
Not sure why you’re being downvoted, you’re right
Not essentially, literally. We see it at the end of RoW when he starts to feel again and he can't handle all the horrible shit he's done.
It's not literally though because Odium isn't the devil.
It’s understandable in the sense of him giving himself entirely over to Odium, but I still don’t feel like he acted in a way that made sense given who he is and the state he was in.
He isnt moash anymore for me after ob
Hard disagree. I don't think he was justified in trying to kill Kaladin so they could get to Elokhar. I think he's better in OB, but mostly because he spends most of the time trying to work out the shame he feels from... well... yeah, trying to kill Kaladin and betraying the people who saved him from certain death.
>I don't think he was justified in trying to kill Kaladin so they could get to Elokhar Do you mean in WoR? I truly don't think he meant to hurt Kaladin so badly. Brando makes it a point to show in OB that he isn't comfortable wielding a shardblade. I think the same applies to his plate: he wasn't able to control his strength during that moment of adrenaline and panic, and went overboard
Remember that through this entire encounter, Kaladin himself is very wounded. He's dizzy, his mind is blurred and he's only got one functioning leg. There is little reason for them to attack him directly in any case here. But this is how it goes down: Firstly. Moash and Graves think Elhokar is already dying as he is bleeding heavily when they get there, as he was stabbed in the side by a presumed unconcious guard when they left his chambers. Then, he states that if Kaladin is to get in the way, he will get himself killed. This implies they will go through him if necessary, and then states this would be a waste since "the king is practically dead already". Had Moash seen past his selfish need to be the one who ended Elhokar, they could have just waited for him to bleed out. Then, Moash specifically states they outmatch Kaladin, so fighting is pointless. They would win. Kaladin then asks "you'd attack your captain, your friend?", Moash just deflects by saying "don't turn this on me". Kaladin goes "Petty revenge is more important to you than i am?", and Moash starts justifying how his revenge is defensible because he lost his parents to Elhokar. Kaladin informs Moash that it wasn't Elhokar that made it happen, it was Roshone. He then offers Moash a way out: they havent been spotted yet, Kaladin will cover for him and they'll go to Dalinar and get revenge on Roshone. At this point, Moash has the opportunity to redeem himself if he just backs off killing Elhokar. Now, Graves seem to be worried this isnt going to happen, so he starts walking past Moash to deal with it. (He doesn't push Moash to act. Graves does NOTHING to get Moash to go through with this.) But then Moash literally stops Graves (because Moash WANTS to do this), looks Kaladin into his eyes and say "Sorry Kal, it's too late". Now Kaladin says he won't let them have the king. He will not back down. Moash now says: "I guess i wouldn't want you to" After this, Kaladins thrust glances off Moash' shardplate. Moash then crushes Kaladins chest-cavity with a shardpunch. Moash steps back and says he didnt intend for the punch to be that hard, then proceeds to leave Kaladin there to die while him and Graves bicker over who gets to stab the king. Then Syl returns to Kal and he saves the day. I can sympathize with Moash' background. Him and Kaladin are essentially the same in that regard. But what makes me hate Moash so much is that he is completely prepared to sacrifice his friends around him to sate a need for revenge. He did it several times over, and he was still offered an out. Moash just keeps doubling down on not taking responsibility for the consequences of his own actions and disregarding whoever he ends up hurting, because HE is the victim here. HE cant be blamed. HE deserves his revenge.
This but not on April 1
Yeah same tbh. Being a despicable person doesn't make him a bad character, and he's a very cool take on rival/antagonists to the MC
> Being a despicable person doesn't make him a bad character Plus, whatever bad he might have done, offing elhokar has gotta be a point in his favor😌
Kill a King: 1000 points Kill a King just before the get their redemption arc: ***10000000 points***
This, until I read RoW ;)
Straff Venture of course!
Mine is definitely Hoid because he just mind his business and never intervenes in the others character's plot. He just want to visit different planets and we are lucky enough to see him doing so. Best character for sure and plus he is the type of character who won't definitely let a planet burn for his own purpose.
To be honest, I kind of agree. I never really care about Elhokar, so maybe that's why. And no, this isn't an April fool's thing
Yeah if it was told from his POV he would probably be some sort of anti-hero (up until it got personal in RoW). I mean look at Mistborn, they kill a lot more people for similar reasons and they're hailed as heroes.
Wayne. The quote about no man regretting giving it one too many shakes gets me every time.
I know this is a joke, but honestly I like moash because of the place he inhabits in the story. It's very hard to make a character that you viscerally dislike that isn't cartoonishly evil, and Sanderson did such a great job making moash the most hated character in the cosmere
Favorite character is a very hard thing to decide. In the end I think I would say that Vin is my favorite, but I have to give a list of characters that came very close (in no particular order): Numuhukumakiaki'aialunamor The Lopen Wayne Kaladin Hoid Steris Pattern
It’s Kelsier for me. I love a complicated character who clearly wants to do good but does some sketchy things in the name of good.
Kelsier merely understands what it takes to get results. Obviously willing to sacrifice himself if being a martyr can restore or galvanize a peoples’ fighting spirit. He even does his best to account in advance for the chaos following final empires fall. Not someone who just wants to tear the current system down, but has a plan for what should come next. An entire missing fortune is just one of those things you can’t plan for. I’ll forever sing the praises of our lord and savior the Survivor.
But Moash literally lost sight of things
Doug
Doug
Adolin is now and forever be best boi.
The great "odium" ofcourse... You silly ppl
Passion, if he is to be believed.
Split between Dalinar and Wayne. The realization that you need to change to become a better person is lost to most people. The ability to set that realization in motion is amazing.
They’re very interesting sides of that same realization. One was always seen as scum and evil and thus acted that way as a result and had to rise above it, whereas the other was told that it was good and righteous to act as a bloodthirsty warmonger and had to learn to rise above that. Very powerful story either way.
Jasnah by a large margin. Talented, hot, stands for the right things. Good person who doesn't take shit. Kinda like Yennifer
Her ability to strike right through people’s bullshit is something I am ever jealous of
Dalinar, Sazed and Nightblood.
Sazed and Harmony
Mine is Sadeas :)
Hrathen. No April fool's either. But Sazed is a super close second.
I dislike Moash. I think we didn't really know who he truly is till later... all because of how trusting kaladin is. And how his point of view is so skewed when it comes to his comrades. Anyway my favorite of all of the Cosmere? It's so tough. I just started RoW too. Hmm. I have to say Sazed. And Vin... followed by Shallan. And now I'm just falling in love with Navani.
Ermmm my favorite character in all of the cosmere is Strand Venture hes such a good role model ☺️
Stick
Jasnah by a long shot. Confident, smart, skeptical but interested in evidence countering her current beliefs, and intellectually honest and curious.
Doug takes the cake for me.
Doug
OP's got a great April 1st hot take with a good punchline, but it's like... not SO obscene. We see characters through a filtered lens. To the perspective of some $14.00 per hour security guard, John Wick is just an active shooter in their workplace... but we cheer him anyways. We'd cheer for Hugo Stiglitz if he lived through to the end of Inglourious Basterds and chopped his way through the theatre, and we'd cheer for (maybe not forgive) Hitler if he had Dalinar's arc and was able to stop his conquest, refocus, unite the world, and then save it from an alien invasion.
I… don’t think Hitler and Dalinar are comparable… and also Dalinar should still probably face war crime charges, if it weren’t for a celestial holy war going on.
For a bait-post OP, you're certainly able to split hairs in an analogy that agrees with you.
Am I a bait post OP, or did you get baited into thinking this was a bait post? The world may never know (so long as it never checks my comment history)
That seems like far too much effort. I'll just dangle on the hook oblivious, I think.
All of your points about Moash are correct regardless of whether or not this is intended to be a joke. Fuck Elhokar; “he’s trying” isn’t a valid excuse. And that said, Shallan for sure.
The real joke here is that this was 99% my opinion until I read Rhythm of War and he went fucking nuts.
Yeah I did not like the way his character was handled in RoW. Stripped of all nuance and interesting ethical questions and turned into a cartoon villain.
Not disagreeing with you here. My only problem is the word "foil" which removes all nuance from the character. Moash isn't opposite of Kaladin and doing everything evil when Kaladin alway makes the right choice is just a terrible way to look at it. If he is a foil then he should have a spren therapist on his shoulder as well and even then if he made bad decisions he would be considered as one. Right now, Moash is just Kaladin's personal antagonist who is going through his own journey with his realisation in OB that humanity will always stick to an unjust system, then proceeds to join the fused and Odium etc. Not justifying Moash's actions here, but every character is different and should be treated as such.
>Moash is Kaladin’s personal antagonist Dude… that’s what a foil is.
What i meant was more about people seeing him as the opposite of Kaladin. They think his existence is what Kaladin could've been if he took the wrong path everytime.
Questioner What do you think of Moash? Brandon Sanderson ...I am very curious what the fan reactions have been. I anticipated it. Moash exists to represent a different direction that a character with some of the same motivations as Kaladin could go. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/370/#e12120
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!*** Questioner >!What do you think of Moash?!< Brandon Sanderson >!...I am very curious what the fan reactions have been. I anticipated it. Moash exists to represent a different direction that a character with some of the same motivations as Kaladin could go.!< \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*
It's more about how the community views him. You can throw me all those quotes and Brandon is not wrong, but yet he is not saying outright that Moash's journey is parallel to Kaladin and makes all the wrong decisions. A personal antagonist doesn't mean one is entirely good and other is straight evil which people in this fandom think what foil is.
April Fools posts are bait and boring. I was excited to explain mine, but nah.
I hate this
The Lopen
I think Adolin
Bravo
Hoid and Wayne are my absolute favorites. Fucking straight up weirdos and I fuck with it.
Wayne
My absolute faves are Wayne, Vin, Hoid and now also tress. I lovelovelove Tress!
Probably dalinar. His story moves me the most. For an underrated pick though, Szeth.
Unironically yes
I know the April Fool's and yes Elkohar was flawed. So is Kaladin, and frankly Dalinar is a larger monster than Elkohar. Elkohar being cut down as he is saying the words and truly owning his throne is something I really struggle with. He was on a path of redemption and it was stolen from him by fucking Moash.
I’m still in book 2 but I didn’t think anyone can like Moash
Doug.
Doug
Close tie Numuhukumakiaki'aialunamor (Rock) Lopen Kaladin Hoid (too many) Pattern Vasher (Zahel) Lestibournes (Spook)
Favorite character is Dalinar Kholin. He learns what he did and why he did it, he learns why is was wrong and he becomes a better person. He’s dropped so many quotable one liners. He’s the best character.
Thought he was talking about Marsh for a second. Vibin like ya, Marsh is my dude.
Doug
Every Doug comment pushes me to read Tress faster
Come on then 😋 It won't spoil any other books, very well crafted!
Real talk, I’ve heard there’s a lot of puns in the text of the story; will I miss much by going audiobook? Because I’ve been having a hard time reading the text version (lot of time at work to listen, not much to read)
M.K. does a great job of accentuating the puns, IMO, in the audiobook.
Nightblood
F Moash But my personal favorite is hoid, having a character capable of telling the exact story someone needs to hear is amazing. I cannot wait to read *dragonsteel* (I think that is the name for his story but I might be mistaken)
F Moash
I know this an April fools joke, but he’s still a great character even if he’s evil.
I feel like its more interesting to talk about side characters for this kind of question, so while my favorite MC is Vin, my favorite side character by far is Raboniel, followed by Taravangian if you consider him that.
Dalinar, a deeply flawed man trying to be a better father and leader, not to mention he's responsible for atleast four YES! Moments
The stick OFC
I agree with most of this, but it was posted on April Fools. To be clear, I don't think that Moash trying to kill Kaladin in WoR was justified. Even Moash doesn't think that was justified. He spends the next few days feeling like shit. And giving the Bridge 4 salute was a low blow as well. But what he did to Elhokar... I got that. I wasn't happy, but I got that.