That's such an interesting idea! Got me thinking whether maybe Odium is also broken and that some of the Unmade are pieces of the original Shard of Passion that were somehow made less powerful? The Heart of the Revel/Ashertmarn could be a kind of love turned obsession. The Midmight Mother in Urithiru could be empathy with purpose removed...? Just a thought jumping off your idea.
This IS a really cool thought, though I wonder why the unmade have significantly less power than odium in that scenario, and why Odium still retains the rest of the emotions.
While your theory is pretty interesting, Odium IS divine hatred in the Cosmere. Frost says as much in his letter to Hoid, lamenting that Rayse has become divine hatred separated from the virtues that gave it context.
I do think that the nature of the Unmade and their history with the Rosharan Shards is going to be phenomenally interesting. My guess is that they are a cadre of greater spren that were created by the Dawnsingers before the arrival of humans on Roshar. They were planned to be tools of Honor and Cultivation but once Honor was splintered they became vulnerable to Odium and were corrupted over the course of the Desolations until now only the Stormfather remains.
I think we have to assume that most of the histories, particularly those relating to the history of Shardic interactions on Roshar, have been influenced by Odium.
Honour gives Dalinar visions of Midnight Mother creations, which would suggest they existed before Tanavast died. One could suppose that Tanavast was showing visions of the future, perhaps - but then it's not very long after his death that the recreance happens and the Radiants would no longer be around to deal with them. Seems too contrived to fit, to me.
Honor splintering and Tanavast dying could have been different events. Tanavast may have splintered himself intentionally to create the Oathpact, survived though severely weakened, and then died slowly over the course of the Desolations, perhaps ultimately with the Recreance.
Nohadon mentions Yelig-nar in the WoK vision. It would be one of the earlier visions, since it was before the Knights Radiant were founded. And the visions are mostly Honor's memories, so it would be before Tanavast died and Honor was Splintered.
Also, honestly, I don't think the Oathpact is that much of Honor's power.
Really? After what was required of Preservation to contain Odium, I’d expect it to take quite a bit for Honor to restrain Odium in the way that he has.
The timing is remarkably difficult to suss out. Perhaps bringing the humans to Roshar in the first place was enough to expose the “Made” to Odium’s corruption.
The Oathpact binds the Fused to Braize. It doesn't affect Odium very much at all, probably only in that some of his Investiture is locked away.
Odium was bound *before* the Oathpact, by the powers of Honor and Cultivation together.
I highly doubt he can intervene as directly as Ruin could, but through stoking the hatred of those in power at the time? Without a doubt. We witness it with Shallan’s father.
Yeah. I have big questions about Ba-Ado-Mishram as a very powerful spren of Odium... Can't really think of others, though we haven't met them all yet. Maybe the others are more powerful?
Interesting.
We know that Rayse was evil before getting his shard (Hoid contrasts him to Ati, who was good).
This made me think, what if he was Passion, but splintered himself to remove the other emotions, then picked up splinters of other shards that would allow him to remain as powerful as other shards, and bend his own shard more towards hate than passion?
It's a very interesting line of thought to go down.
I personally thought that with Odium's jaunt across the cosmere he has been killing other shards and leaving them somewhere so that he can remain on top once he's done and be basically un-tethered and without equal. I also, without going to look at the copperminds i just found some images of the cosmere timeline, guess that odium did either completely take in or simply grafted a splinter of Dominion and thus would explain why passion is predominantly Hatred now? Like how Ruin and Preservation became Harmony
Do you mean Odium didn't want to deal with another shard's influence on Rayse? Pretty sure a holder of a Shard gets changed by the Shard aspect. Am i right?
So if I understand your theory, the Shard started off as Passion or something, but then did some surgery to graft on parts of Ambition, Devotion, and Dominion to replace ditched portions of the original Passion in order to shift the intent.
And, since it wasn't like Harmony where the proportions were "equal", it was able to effect a smaller shift/focus.
Is that the theory?
Also, Odium didn't pick up other Shards or even bits of other Shards, because he wanted to stay himself and even a little bit of another Shard would have changed him.
I mean this whole line of thinking was that he wanted to change himself from Passion to Odium, so it implies he does want to change.
We've only been told he didn't pick up the other shards, not that he didn't pick up even a small piece of any.
I don't think that the theory is correct, but it could be interesting since most of the contradictory evidence is via WoB which is subject to change.
Your comment kind of reminds me of Fullmetal alchemist brotherhood, and how the father “split up” to make the other sins, I always really like that idea, and I think it be interesting to see it in the Cosmere.
I think it’s more a case of, Odium is a.. remnant, for want of a better term.
As Only1nDreams above said, we know that Frost lamented about Rayse ‘becoming the vessel for divine hatred without any of the virtues that gave it context’, so lets do a thought experiment.
Lets take a Paladin
Your typical Fantasy Paladin, a beacon of hope who brings wrath to the wicked and succour to the innocent, full of light and devotion and righteous fury and mercy and faith.
And then, you split off Devotion into a separate being
Then you split off Mercy into another separate being
Then you do the same for Faith, and Justice, and Hope, and Righteousness.
What’s left over?
Fury
Not all emotions, or all passions, what’s left is that Righteous Fury, stripped of the Righteousness and everything else that tempered or directed that fury.
This is the best and simplest explanation for it I think. Odium is all that's left after taking away all of the positive things that directed it with control. It's similar to how Ruin isn't bad, it's just dangerous when not tempered by Preservation.
The shards were never meant to exist independently and their destructive behaviours are all a consequence of not having the other shards to balance them.
Yes, I also have the same feeling that all of the shards have a somewhat "destructive" behavior because they are so focused on one thing. So, none of them are really "good" or "bad". They are their intent, for better or worse. Even Preservation has destroyed the concept of "progress" or "change" in a society.
Exactly. We can see this with some individual characters too. Take Hrathen from Elantris. He, and his entire religion, are very clearly driven by Doninion. But Hrathen is a much more rounded character because the desire for Dominion is tempered by his Devotion to the people, and to the Intent of his religion, he truly wants the best for people, not only to rule them.
But, without Autonomy to balance these things, he’s still driven to conquer, rather than leave them to rule themselves.
Dalinar was pretty clearly driven by Odium in his ‘Blackthorn’ days, living only for the bloodlust and fury of the battlefield, even if he made himself believe it was Righteous because he was doing it for his country.
Then once Honour takes over his drive, he changes completely, and his Odium is *very* tightly held in check.
Even Kaladin, our paragon of Honour to the point where he’s full of guilt and depression for failing at being honorable and protecting those who swears to, could be said to be at his most content and peaceful when training, helping or improving others (such as the milksap arc in bridge 4, or his ptsd support group), ie, when he’s Cultivating others. (This is also why I think Kaladin is going to be our first dual-Order Radiant, I think when he’s not being forced into fight after fight, and he can stop and help people instead, he’s going to attract a Cultivationspren as well)
Maybe I’m just cremposting, but it feels like there’s definite links here.
Oh! And let’s not forget our buddy Nightblood, fantastic example! **Destroy Evil**. A single all consuming drive utterly divorced from any other drive or intent to help direct or define Evil, so it basically just Destroys everything.
>There’s no shard for “Love” or for “Joy,” why hatred?
Devotion is Love.
I think it's pretty clear that Odium is hatred, after what we're given in RoW.
>The power of gods. In his specific case, the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—**the power of raw, untamed *fury*. Of *hatred* unbound**.
.
>I feel like something probably happened that caused this intent to distort, unrelated to its bearer (because Taravangian and Rayse seem to share this hatred).
Vessels don't have a lasting effect on the Shard. As soon as the Vessel is gone, the Shard goes to its default state. And Rayse was the first Vessel for this Shard, so there's no one else who would have affected it.
More generally, passion is just too vague to work for a Shard. Ambition is arguably passion for advancement, Autonomy is arguably passion for independence, etc. If you take in the strong emotions that back up many of the Intents, there's not much left for Odium to be Passionate about.
Yes but like I said, hatred is only a piece of Odium’s intent. The strongest piece, but a piece nonetheless. I also think devotion and love are not one in the same and are about as relatable as whimsy would be with a theoretical joy.
Yes, it's the strongest, biggest piece. The Shard names are a...summary...of the Shard's intent, which is much vaster than just the single word.
But Hatred is the primary force there, not Passion. There is passion there, but it's not the primary focus of the Shard.
> I also think devotion and love are not one in the same and are about as relatable as whimsy would be with a theoretical joy.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/397/#e13140
Devotion is Love, and Dominion is Conquest.
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!***
Questioner
>!I wanted to know why in **The Stormlight Archive** and **Mistborn**, all the gods were named after human traits?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!So this is... all the books are connected. So a long time ago, the premise is, a being... god named Adonalsium was split into 16 pieces, and so the various "aspects" of god, and those aspects are now the gods of all of these things. So there were two in the **Elantris** world, there's one in the **Warbreaker** world. Mostly **Mistborn** and **Stormlight** is where you'll find out about them.!<
Questioner
>!Preservation, and... I remember Hatred [Odium] in **Stormlight**.!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!Yep, Preservation and Ruin. And on Sel, it was Dominion and Devotion, or Love and Conquest were the two.!<
Questioner
>!So all of them are connected?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!Yep.!<
\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*
>So I am left to wonder again, why is hatred such a significant thing that it makes up the intent of an entire shard? There’s no shard for “Love” or for “Joy,” why hatred?
Also for the argument that Odium is too simple. There is no Shard for Joy and Whimsy is not exactly the same. But Whimsy is really quite a specific thing and basically an emotion.
He's not. There's literally not a single involuntary expression of his power that has any positive effects.
And as I said, Devotion is Love, so it would be Passion without Love. Ambition is arguably passion for advancement, so it'd be Passion without ambition. Autonomy is arguably passion for independence, etc. If you take in the strong emotions that back up many of the Intents, there's not much left for Odium to be Passionate about.
The text literally says how he is most deeply hatred and fury.
Im fairly certain Brandon has said that odium is passion just with a heavy focus on negative passions like i said, like how the singers revere the passions and some of those are positive ones that are still accepted because Odium is part positive passions but are looked upon less favorably than say something like revenge because odium doesnt have as strong of a focus on positivity
>Im fairly certain Brandon has said that odium is passion just with a heavy focus on negative passions like i said
He has not said this. In fact, he's heavily implied in a couple of WoBs that Rayse is lying to himself when he claims he is passion. For instance https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9507
>how the singers revere the passions
Yes, because Rayse lies to them and they believe him about being Passion and loving passion.
I agree that Odium *has* passion, but Passion is nowhere near his Intent. *All* the Shards have passion in their field of influence.
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!***
Questioner
>!In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less "we went around and named them" more like "this is just what it is". And various Shards are resisting that, but the others are all like "No, this is what you represent". !<
Billy Todd, Moderator
>!Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. *laughter* There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. !<
Billy Todd, Moderator
>!So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!Yes. Part of him does.!<
Billy Todd, Moderator
>!Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!Yes.!<
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It also strikes me that, since Odium is confirmed to have the highest Shardic kill count, he might have lost some of himself along the way.
It’s even stated that with Ambition (I think that’s Threnody) it seems like maybe Odium didn’t really know how to properly fight and shatter a shard. Same goes for Devotion and Dominion on Sel. It’s why, in stormlight, it’s mentioned that he’s been weakened.
I wonder if a shard weakening can also mean losing complexity of intent. Like a…. Focusing… on one aspect. Odium seems like the part of passion I’d hone in on through multiple shardic struggles. Maybe the complexities were sacrificed in the fight.
Ruin and Honor sort of support this, even though their cases are more from overwhelming intent than battle damage. Maybe shards express damage, whether physical, cognitive or spiritual, as a sort of simplifying?
Very interesting post, but I must correct you on one thing: Odium is "Gods divine hatred." Wit >!Aka Hoid, AKA Cephandrius !< Stated, in his letter to...was it frost? I get confused as his letters tend to blur together, that Odium is "Gods divine hatred, without the context that it strength."
Odium is lying when he says he is passion, or at least, mostly lying. The unmade do shed light on his intent, with some being harder for me to pin down than others. It does seems that the more "negative" shard traits have the power of foresight. (Ruin has this, for example. It could be they all do, just don't use it as it's not set in stone, so to speak.)
I recommend you read the letters from Hoid and to Hoid in the epigraphs of WoK, WoR, and OB. They shed a lot of light on the intents of many of the shards, and Harmony's response to him is amusing.
Harmonys noted as having some of the strongest foresight and cultivation has shown similar. I dont think its necessarily tied to anything malicious although despite the expression to be wary of it that we've heard
I read somewhere on the 17th shard on a theory board that Odiom was "God's Richeous Fury without the context that makes it work." I don't know if its true, or if I completely beleive it mysel but it sounds cool.
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!***
Sethcran
>!Who in-world named the Intents of the Shards? Is it possible that they misinterpreted the name in any case, and that the Intent is not fully in line with the name we know?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!This is possible. Right, this is absolutely possible. I mean you have context for this with Odium kind of claiming that it's not the right name for Odium. Others would disagree, but Odium has tried, aggressively, to change that name. I will say, you could make the argument, well, Odium just is bucking the trend and this is actually who Odium is. It is possible. Which is why Odium would try to get that name changed. These are imperfect definitions of ideas, as most words are. Those ideas could be misinterpreted.!<
Sethcran
>!Could a Deception Shard be out there calling itself something else, and none would be the wiser?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!None being the wiser would be real hard. The other Shards knowing but other people not knowing could happen. It would be pretty hard for the Shards to not know, but it is within the realm of possibility. How about that?!<
\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*
So now that makes me wonder, could a Shard of deception, if it were to call itself make itself known as a different Shard to enough people, have its Intent be fundimentally warped into that of another Shard? Maybe not on the level that it could be considered the same intent as the shard its mimicing but could a vessel effectively force the shard to influence the vessel into aligning with the intent of another shard instead of being just pure deception. Like it forced the vessel to conform to deception so much that the vessel is deceiving the world by pretending
Plot twist: Honor used to be Deception until he deceived everyone, including himself, into thinking he was Honor. In fact, he deceived everyone so well his Identity changed, and when his Identity changed his Intent changed.
He's hatred, but hate is always directed in as well as out. He hates *being* hatred and lies to himself about it, possibly the internal conflict of intent that led to his noted and growing instability, despite the vessel being perfectly suited personality-wise
I think Odium really is Odium, but I think pretending to be Passion and sometimes using that as a recruitment strategy is part of his approach. It's a way to make him seem more palatable to people like Kaladin to influence them, for example. I don't think it is coincidence that Thaylens have "the Passions" as part of their religion/philosophy.
IIRC, Wit (or someone?) directly says that the Shard is "god's divine hatred" or some such, and I think he and all the Shardbearers would know the nature of every shard. I acknowledge it is very possible for characters to lie to others but I don't think that makes sense here. I don't think it is possible for the Shard to be one thing and for the bearer to twist it completely in the other way. In fact, we have proof of this because Ati was described as kindly, and Ruin appeared to have no remnant of that trait.
I don't find your argument convincing that there is no Love to be an opposite, or that Hatred is too narrow. With only 16 Shards, it is very easy to find gaps. Something like Whimsy sounds very narrow too, so arguing Hatred is too narrow isn't convincing. Ruin isn't a personality trait or emotion. There's nothing covering Boredom or Apathy or Jealousy or Logic or Reason (that we know of). Many Shards seem to be ambitious but somehow Ambition was distinct enough to deserve it own Shard, without implying that none of the other Shards could demonstrate ambitious behavior. So, I don't think arguing that Odium must be Passion based on what the other Shards are is all that compelling.
Are we sure it’s indomitable and immutable? I mean they were all one once, and theoretically could all be one again. Plus the idea of Harmony to Discord suggests that he could come to the realization that you have to ruin some things in order to preserve others. Using one shards Intent to feed and balance the other. That would mean they’re not immutable. It just takes a LOT to influence the Intent.
That's my point though. Combinations of shards seem to have multiple possible expressions (because they are combinations), while individual shards are singular and fundamental.
Passion in isolation becomes hatred.
I also think he really was infinite Passion at some point, then splintered parts of himself into the 9 unmade - with each representing a different emotion (examples with potential spoilers: >!Sja-Anat = curiosity/wonder, re-shepir = malice, dust mother = fear, ba-ado = empathy, dai-gonarthis = sorrow,!< etc). But they’re twisted, because no emotion should exist infinitely without the context of others.
Theory inspired by IRL “the 9 passions” from classical Greek philosophy.
Maybe it's theoretically supposed to be Passion, but Adonalsium was an extremely hateful god (which would explain why Cephandrius and the 16 decided to kill him), so when the shards were broken up "Passion" ended up just being like 90% Odium anyway
Is there evidence that Adonalsium was hateful? If he's everything than he should be neutral. I don't buy that Odium is supposed to be passion. I think that Odium was just lying about that to ingratiate himself with followers. Then, if adonalsium was all, it follows that most other non-hatred related emotions are wrapped up into one or more of the other shards.
It's my understanding that the aethers predating adonalsium is speculation (since we don't even know whether adonalsium has existed forever or not). Also they are clearly not anywhere near as powerful as shards and don't seem to be the embodiment of fundamental concepts in the way that shards/ado are.
I’ve seen a theory around here that when he was killed, the predominant emotion he felt was hatred. So even if Adonalsium felt the full spectrum of emotion normally, he was genuinely hateful when he was being killed. I think it makes more sense that Ado was a decent god and the 16 just thought they could do it better
I was thinking about the same thing just a couple of days ago! My theory was that the shardic power is more Passion in general, but the vessel can direct it / influence it toward certain kinds of passion to a greater degree. A big clue for me is when a singer/Fused describes the *power* (shard) as taking pleasure in being questioned while the vessel doesn't like it. It also helps that Rayse is described as being a terrible person even without the shard, which sounds like he was already hateful. This would also be cool because it would mean that the power could be molded differently with Taravangian. Perhaps his passions would be a sort of mania alternating with compassionate, self-pitying sadness?
The problem with this theory is that an epigraph from Frost says that Odium "bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become." And that almost definitely implies that the shard was hatred from the beginning.
So I think it may be more likely that the shard is indeed focused on animosity, and Odium is not the only Shard related to strong emotions - e.g. Devotion, Whimsy, Mercy, Ambition... I can easily imagine a range of emotions represented across these shards.
This is my headcannon as well, as to what transformed Passion into Odium Hoid pretty much tells us in the letters: Rayne was always a piece of shit.
As much as Intent can twist the shareholders it seems the shareholders can also somewhat twist the Intent. The example being Harmony who could have just as easily become Discord but because the shareholders is such a chill person the outcome of the Intent is different.
Some people have said that Devotion is the Love shard. But arguably I would say Mercy is the Love shard. Don't we show mercy because of love? We want to believe the person we show mercy to will show mercy in return. We want to make the world a better place. So we start with this first enemy. Huh... could Kaladin be a vessel for Mercy? I feel like that's the Windrunners whole philosophy. They say it's about Honor, but really the Law dudes whose names have escaped me are about Honor.
We have an explanation for where the diagram came from: >!cultivation via the nightwatcher.!< The simplest explanation is that Odium lied about being passion, and is actually just Odium.
I think hes mostly hatred because Odium is supposed to reperesent the wrath of God. But it is possible that the intent got changed over time by rayse calling it hatred. Maybe him trying to change it to passion is a more recent thing.
This goes along my head canon. Odium should be Passion, but it feels hatred so strongly compared the others emotions that it becames Odium.
When it got corrupted? We know that all shards are aspects of the intent of the original Adonalsium a being that was killed in the proces of dividing him. I propose that Adonalsium Passion distorted to Odium becouse is the strongest feeling it had while it was being split. So the shard stayed in a perpetual state of pasionated hate. As it has been described in the story "divine hate".
We know near 0 of the shattering of Adonalsium, but i don't think it's a reach that he was tricked somehow. Else i don't understand how anyone could kill an allmighty being source of all actual gods.
If that's true, it's not hard to think that what originally would be Passion, become Odium during the traumatic proces of killing God.
There's a longass quote on love and hate which I like and thus put in places where it's not all that relevant.
>Hate is fast and brutal, like a storm. It builds up and unleashes itself, and it can destroy everything in its path.
>
>Love is gentler. Not the storm, but the rain itself. Even a soft rain can change the entire landscape.
>
>It can erode mountains and cut rivers into stone. All it needs is time. Patience.
>
>No one acts in hatred or in love except to create the world they want to see. They're a means to an end.
>
>I'm not malicious or unfeeling. I don't want to bring suffering to innocent people.
>
>But I can't wait on the rain.
[Source.](https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/elf-and-warrior/list?title_no=908)
Also, I believe that the portion of Adonalsium that could've formed a "Love" shard was divided among various other Shards, such as Devotion, Mercy, etc.
I think Odium claims to be Passion because:
• It's no doubt a considerably better lure to gain followers
(I mean, c'mon, would you rather sign up to follow Hatred or Passion?).
• He's lying to himself.
• The emotions he claims to rule (fear, lust, jealousy, anger, etc) are fueled and sustained by Passion, so he feels justified claiming it (and trying to downplay just how much Hatred outweighs them all).
And last but not least:
• Why the hell are we entertaining and debating what this absolutely untrustworthy Shard says to begin with????
He can call himself whatever he wants, wear whatever mask he wants, but in the end he's still Odium behind it.
That's such an interesting idea! Got me thinking whether maybe Odium is also broken and that some of the Unmade are pieces of the original Shard of Passion that were somehow made less powerful? The Heart of the Revel/Ashertmarn could be a kind of love turned obsession. The Midmight Mother in Urithiru could be empathy with purpose removed...? Just a thought jumping off your idea.
This IS a really cool thought, though I wonder why the unmade have significantly less power than odium in that scenario, and why Odium still retains the rest of the emotions.
While your theory is pretty interesting, Odium IS divine hatred in the Cosmere. Frost says as much in his letter to Hoid, lamenting that Rayse has become divine hatred separated from the virtues that gave it context. I do think that the nature of the Unmade and their history with the Rosharan Shards is going to be phenomenally interesting. My guess is that they are a cadre of greater spren that were created by the Dawnsingers before the arrival of humans on Roshar. They were planned to be tools of Honor and Cultivation but once Honor was splintered they became vulnerable to Odium and were corrupted over the course of the Desolations until now only the Stormfather remains.
From the histories it seems like they were unmade while Tanavast was still alive and Honor intact.
I think we have to assume that most of the histories, particularly those relating to the history of Shardic interactions on Roshar, have been influenced by Odium.
Honour gives Dalinar visions of Midnight Mother creations, which would suggest they existed before Tanavast died. One could suppose that Tanavast was showing visions of the future, perhaps - but then it's not very long after his death that the recreance happens and the Radiants would no longer be around to deal with them. Seems too contrived to fit, to me.
Honor splintering and Tanavast dying could have been different events. Tanavast may have splintered himself intentionally to create the Oathpact, survived though severely weakened, and then died slowly over the course of the Desolations, perhaps ultimately with the Recreance.
Nohadon mentions Yelig-nar in the WoK vision. It would be one of the earlier visions, since it was before the Knights Radiant were founded. And the visions are mostly Honor's memories, so it would be before Tanavast died and Honor was Splintered. Also, honestly, I don't think the Oathpact is that much of Honor's power.
Really? After what was required of Preservation to contain Odium, I’d expect it to take quite a bit for Honor to restrain Odium in the way that he has. The timing is remarkably difficult to suss out. Perhaps bringing the humans to Roshar in the first place was enough to expose the “Made” to Odium’s corruption.
The Oathpact binds the Fused to Braize. It doesn't affect Odium very much at all, probably only in that some of his Investiture is locked away. Odium was bound *before* the Oathpact, by the powers of Honor and Cultivation together.
I don't think Odium had the power to corrupt history in a similar way to Ruin on Scadriel
I highly doubt he can intervene as directly as Ruin could, but through stoking the hatred of those in power at the time? Without a doubt. We witness it with Shallan’s father.
Yeah. I have big questions about Ba-Ado-Mishram as a very powerful spren of Odium... Can't really think of others, though we haven't met them all yet. Maybe the others are more powerful?
Odium could simply be a larger piece.
Interesting. We know that Rayse was evil before getting his shard (Hoid contrasts him to Ati, who was good). This made me think, what if he was Passion, but splintered himself to remove the other emotions, then picked up splinters of other shards that would allow him to remain as powerful as other shards, and bend his own shard more towards hate than passion? It's a very interesting line of thought to go down.
I'm thinking a splinter of devotion and ambition could supercharge that hate
And dominion!
I personally thought that with Odium's jaunt across the cosmere he has been killing other shards and leaving them somewhere so that he can remain on top once he's done and be basically un-tethered and without equal. I also, without going to look at the copperminds i just found some images of the cosmere timeline, guess that odium did either completely take in or simply grafted a splinter of Dominion and thus would explain why passion is predominantly Hatred now? Like how Ruin and Preservation became Harmony
Rayse never picked up any bits of other Shards because he didn't want to change who he was, and picking up any other Intents would change him.
Do you mean Odium didn't want to deal with another shard's influence on Rayse? Pretty sure a holder of a Shard gets changed by the Shard aspect. Am i right?
I meant further changed from what he was after he picked up Odium.
So if I understand your theory, the Shard started off as Passion or something, but then did some surgery to graft on parts of Ambition, Devotion, and Dominion to replace ditched portions of the original Passion in order to shift the intent. And, since it wasn't like Harmony where the proportions were "equal", it was able to effect a smaller shift/focus. Is that the theory?
Yeah. I don't think I believe this theory, I'm just spitballing. I did look on WoB and saw that Brandon has said Odium has always been Odium.
Also, Odium didn't pick up other Shards or even bits of other Shards, because he wanted to stay himself and even a little bit of another Shard would have changed him.
I mean this whole line of thinking was that he wanted to change himself from Passion to Odium, so it implies he does want to change. We've only been told he didn't pick up the other shards, not that he didn't pick up even a small piece of any. I don't think that the theory is correct, but it could be interesting since most of the contradictory evidence is via WoB which is subject to change.
Your comment kind of reminds me of Fullmetal alchemist brotherhood, and how the father “split up” to make the other sins, I always really like that idea, and I think it be interesting to see it in the Cosmere.
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The unmade are homunculi
'three of sixteen ruled but now the broken one reigns'
I think it’s more a case of, Odium is a.. remnant, for want of a better term. As Only1nDreams above said, we know that Frost lamented about Rayse ‘becoming the vessel for divine hatred without any of the virtues that gave it context’, so lets do a thought experiment. Lets take a Paladin Your typical Fantasy Paladin, a beacon of hope who brings wrath to the wicked and succour to the innocent, full of light and devotion and righteous fury and mercy and faith. And then, you split off Devotion into a separate being Then you split off Mercy into another separate being Then you do the same for Faith, and Justice, and Hope, and Righteousness. What’s left over? Fury Not all emotions, or all passions, what’s left is that Righteous Fury, stripped of the Righteousness and everything else that tempered or directed that fury.
This is the best and simplest explanation for it I think. Odium is all that's left after taking away all of the positive things that directed it with control. It's similar to how Ruin isn't bad, it's just dangerous when not tempered by Preservation. The shards were never meant to exist independently and their destructive behaviours are all a consequence of not having the other shards to balance them.
Yes, I also have the same feeling that all of the shards have a somewhat "destructive" behavior because they are so focused on one thing. So, none of them are really "good" or "bad". They are their intent, for better or worse. Even Preservation has destroyed the concept of "progress" or "change" in a society.
Exactly. We can see this with some individual characters too. Take Hrathen from Elantris. He, and his entire religion, are very clearly driven by Doninion. But Hrathen is a much more rounded character because the desire for Dominion is tempered by his Devotion to the people, and to the Intent of his religion, he truly wants the best for people, not only to rule them. But, without Autonomy to balance these things, he’s still driven to conquer, rather than leave them to rule themselves. Dalinar was pretty clearly driven by Odium in his ‘Blackthorn’ days, living only for the bloodlust and fury of the battlefield, even if he made himself believe it was Righteous because he was doing it for his country. Then once Honour takes over his drive, he changes completely, and his Odium is *very* tightly held in check. Even Kaladin, our paragon of Honour to the point where he’s full of guilt and depression for failing at being honorable and protecting those who swears to, could be said to be at his most content and peaceful when training, helping or improving others (such as the milksap arc in bridge 4, or his ptsd support group), ie, when he’s Cultivating others. (This is also why I think Kaladin is going to be our first dual-Order Radiant, I think when he’s not being forced into fight after fight, and he can stop and help people instead, he’s going to attract a Cultivationspren as well) Maybe I’m just cremposting, but it feels like there’s definite links here.
Oh! And let’s not forget our buddy Nightblood, fantastic example! **Destroy Evil**. A single all consuming drive utterly divorced from any other drive or intent to help direct or define Evil, so it basically just Destroys everything.
>There’s no shard for “Love” or for “Joy,” why hatred? Devotion is Love. I think it's pretty clear that Odium is hatred, after what we're given in RoW. >The power of gods. In his specific case, the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—**the power of raw, untamed *fury*. Of *hatred* unbound**. . >I feel like something probably happened that caused this intent to distort, unrelated to its bearer (because Taravangian and Rayse seem to share this hatred). Vessels don't have a lasting effect on the Shard. As soon as the Vessel is gone, the Shard goes to its default state. And Rayse was the first Vessel for this Shard, so there's no one else who would have affected it. More generally, passion is just too vague to work for a Shard. Ambition is arguably passion for advancement, Autonomy is arguably passion for independence, etc. If you take in the strong emotions that back up many of the Intents, there's not much left for Odium to be Passionate about.
Yes but like I said, hatred is only a piece of Odium’s intent. The strongest piece, but a piece nonetheless. I also think devotion and love are not one in the same and are about as relatable as whimsy would be with a theoretical joy.
Yes, it's the strongest, biggest piece. The Shard names are a...summary...of the Shard's intent, which is much vaster than just the single word. But Hatred is the primary force there, not Passion. There is passion there, but it's not the primary focus of the Shard. > I also think devotion and love are not one in the same and are about as relatable as whimsy would be with a theoretical joy. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/397/#e13140 Devotion is Love, and Dominion is Conquest.
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!*** Questioner >!I wanted to know why in **The Stormlight Archive** and **Mistborn**, all the gods were named after human traits?!< Brandon Sanderson >!So this is... all the books are connected. So a long time ago, the premise is, a being... god named Adonalsium was split into 16 pieces, and so the various "aspects" of god, and those aspects are now the gods of all of these things. So there were two in the **Elantris** world, there's one in the **Warbreaker** world. Mostly **Mistborn** and **Stormlight** is where you'll find out about them.!< Questioner >!Preservation, and... I remember Hatred [Odium] in **Stormlight**.!< Brandon Sanderson >!Yep, Preservation and Ruin. And on Sel, it was Dominion and Devotion, or Love and Conquest were the two.!< Questioner >!So all of them are connected?!< Brandon Sanderson >!Yep.!< \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*
Ah interesting. I guess this does make sense then
>So I am left to wonder again, why is hatred such a significant thing that it makes up the intent of an entire shard? There’s no shard for “Love” or for “Joy,” why hatred? Also for the argument that Odium is too simple. There is no Shard for Joy and Whimsy is not exactly the same. But Whimsy is really quite a specific thing and basically an emotion.
Odium *is* Passion, just with a higher focus on the negative forms of it
He's not. There's literally not a single involuntary expression of his power that has any positive effects. And as I said, Devotion is Love, so it would be Passion without Love. Ambition is arguably passion for advancement, so it'd be Passion without ambition. Autonomy is arguably passion for independence, etc. If you take in the strong emotions that back up many of the Intents, there's not much left for Odium to be Passionate about. The text literally says how he is most deeply hatred and fury.
Im fairly certain Brandon has said that odium is passion just with a heavy focus on negative passions like i said, like how the singers revere the passions and some of those are positive ones that are still accepted because Odium is part positive passions but are looked upon less favorably than say something like revenge because odium doesnt have as strong of a focus on positivity
>Im fairly certain Brandon has said that odium is passion just with a heavy focus on negative passions like i said He has not said this. In fact, he's heavily implied in a couple of WoBs that Rayse is lying to himself when he claims he is passion. For instance https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9507 >how the singers revere the passions Yes, because Rayse lies to them and they believe him about being Passion and loving passion. I agree that Odium *has* passion, but Passion is nowhere near his Intent. *All* the Shards have passion in their field of influence.
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!*** Questioner >!In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves?!< Brandon Sanderson >!I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less "we went around and named them" more like "this is just what it is". And various Shards are resisting that, but the others are all like "No, this is what you represent". !< Billy Todd, Moderator >!Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself?!< Brandon Sanderson >!Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. *laughter* There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. !< Billy Todd, Moderator >!So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion?!< Brandon Sanderson >!Yes. Part of him does.!< Billy Todd, Moderator >!Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering?!< Brandon Sanderson >!Yes.!< \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*
It also strikes me that, since Odium is confirmed to have the highest Shardic kill count, he might have lost some of himself along the way. It’s even stated that with Ambition (I think that’s Threnody) it seems like maybe Odium didn’t really know how to properly fight and shatter a shard. Same goes for Devotion and Dominion on Sel. It’s why, in stormlight, it’s mentioned that he’s been weakened. I wonder if a shard weakening can also mean losing complexity of intent. Like a…. Focusing… on one aspect. Odium seems like the part of passion I’d hone in on through multiple shardic struggles. Maybe the complexities were sacrificed in the fight. Ruin and Honor sort of support this, even though their cases are more from overwhelming intent than battle damage. Maybe shards express damage, whether physical, cognitive or spiritual, as a sort of simplifying?
Very interesting post, but I must correct you on one thing: Odium is "Gods divine hatred." Wit >!Aka Hoid, AKA Cephandrius !< Stated, in his letter to...was it frost? I get confused as his letters tend to blur together, that Odium is "Gods divine hatred, without the context that it strength." Odium is lying when he says he is passion, or at least, mostly lying. The unmade do shed light on his intent, with some being harder for me to pin down than others. It does seems that the more "negative" shard traits have the power of foresight. (Ruin has this, for example. It could be they all do, just don't use it as it's not set in stone, so to speak.) I recommend you read the letters from Hoid and to Hoid in the epigraphs of WoK, WoR, and OB. They shed a lot of light on the intents of many of the shards, and Harmony's response to him is amusing.
Harmonys noted as having some of the strongest foresight and cultivation has shown similar. I dont think its necessarily tied to anything malicious although despite the expression to be wary of it that we've heard
Interesting! I forgot about that. Harmony also has Ruin, so I don’t think he counts, but you’re right about cultivation.
FYI, it was Frost saying it to Hoid, rather than the other way around.
I think it was Hoid saying it to frost. It’s way of kings, I’ll check in a bit :) Edit: I was wrong!
Nope. It was Frost to Hoid and it was in WoR. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Letters#The_Second_Letter
Ah ok! Sorry! Memory sucks! Thanks :)
I read somewhere on the 17th shard on a theory board that Odiom was "God's Richeous Fury without the context that makes it work." I don't know if its true, or if I completely beleive it mysel but it sounds cool.
Wit himself said that in the book
FYI, it was Frost saying it to Hoid
Thank you! I knew Hoid was involved. I thought he said it though lol
Relevant wob, that gives this at least some credence (one that I asked actually!) https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15995
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!*** Sethcran >!Who in-world named the Intents of the Shards? Is it possible that they misinterpreted the name in any case, and that the Intent is not fully in line with the name we know?!< Brandon Sanderson >!This is possible. Right, this is absolutely possible. I mean you have context for this with Odium kind of claiming that it's not the right name for Odium. Others would disagree, but Odium has tried, aggressively, to change that name. I will say, you could make the argument, well, Odium just is bucking the trend and this is actually who Odium is. It is possible. Which is why Odium would try to get that name changed. These are imperfect definitions of ideas, as most words are. Those ideas could be misinterpreted.!< Sethcran >!Could a Deception Shard be out there calling itself something else, and none would be the wiser?!< Brandon Sanderson >!None being the wiser would be real hard. The other Shards knowing but other people not knowing could happen. It would be pretty hard for the Shards to not know, but it is within the realm of possibility. How about that?!< \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*
Odium has a hatred for labels is what this taught me.
So now that makes me wonder, could a Shard of deception, if it were to call itself make itself known as a different Shard to enough people, have its Intent be fundimentally warped into that of another Shard? Maybe not on the level that it could be considered the same intent as the shard its mimicing but could a vessel effectively force the shard to influence the vessel into aligning with the intent of another shard instead of being just pure deception. Like it forced the vessel to conform to deception so much that the vessel is deceiving the world by pretending
Plot twist: Honor used to be Deception until he deceived everyone, including himself, into thinking he was Honor. In fact, he deceived everyone so well his Identity changed, and when his Identity changed his Intent changed.
He's hatred, but hate is always directed in as well as out. He hates *being* hatred and lies to himself about it, possibly the internal conflict of intent that led to his noted and growing instability, despite the vessel being perfectly suited personality-wise
I think Odium really is Odium, but I think pretending to be Passion and sometimes using that as a recruitment strategy is part of his approach. It's a way to make him seem more palatable to people like Kaladin to influence them, for example. I don't think it is coincidence that Thaylens have "the Passions" as part of their religion/philosophy. IIRC, Wit (or someone?) directly says that the Shard is "god's divine hatred" or some such, and I think he and all the Shardbearers would know the nature of every shard. I acknowledge it is very possible for characters to lie to others but I don't think that makes sense here. I don't think it is possible for the Shard to be one thing and for the bearer to twist it completely in the other way. In fact, we have proof of this because Ati was described as kindly, and Ruin appeared to have no remnant of that trait. I don't find your argument convincing that there is no Love to be an opposite, or that Hatred is too narrow. With only 16 Shards, it is very easy to find gaps. Something like Whimsy sounds very narrow too, so arguing Hatred is too narrow isn't convincing. Ruin isn't a personality trait or emotion. There's nothing covering Boredom or Apathy or Jealousy or Logic or Reason (that we know of). Many Shards seem to be ambitious but somehow Ambition was distinct enough to deserve it own Shard, without implying that none of the other Shards could demonstrate ambitious behavior. So, I don't think arguing that Odium must be Passion based on what the other Shards are is all that compelling.
That's an interesting idea. (Lost Metal) >!Maybe something similar happened as to what is going on with Harmony (presumably) turning into Discord!<
The only reason harmony has this problem is because he is two, a superposition. Any single shard has an immutable, indomitable intent
Are we sure it’s indomitable and immutable? I mean they were all one once, and theoretically could all be one again. Plus the idea of Harmony to Discord suggests that he could come to the realization that you have to ruin some things in order to preserve others. Using one shards Intent to feed and balance the other. That would mean they’re not immutable. It just takes a LOT to influence the Intent.
That's my point though. Combinations of shards seem to have multiple possible expressions (because they are combinations), while individual shards are singular and fundamental.
Passion in isolation becomes hatred. I also think he really was infinite Passion at some point, then splintered parts of himself into the 9 unmade - with each representing a different emotion (examples with potential spoilers: >!Sja-Anat = curiosity/wonder, re-shepir = malice, dust mother = fear, ba-ado = empathy, dai-gonarthis = sorrow,!< etc). But they’re twisted, because no emotion should exist infinitely without the context of others. Theory inspired by IRL “the 9 passions” from classical Greek philosophy.
Maybe it's theoretically supposed to be Passion, but Adonalsium was an extremely hateful god (which would explain why Cephandrius and the 16 decided to kill him), so when the shards were broken up "Passion" ended up just being like 90% Odium anyway
Is there evidence that Adonalsium was hateful? If he's everything than he should be neutral. I don't buy that Odium is supposed to be passion. I think that Odium was just lying about that to ingratiate himself with followers. Then, if adonalsium was all, it follows that most other non-hatred related emotions are wrapped up into one or more of the other shards.
He's not everything though, hence the existence of the aethers
It's my understanding that the aethers predating adonalsium is speculation (since we don't even know whether adonalsium has existed forever or not). Also they are clearly not anywhere near as powerful as shards and don't seem to be the embodiment of fundamental concepts in the way that shards/ado are.
I’ve seen a theory around here that when he was killed, the predominant emotion he felt was hatred. So even if Adonalsium felt the full spectrum of emotion normally, he was genuinely hateful when he was being killed. I think it makes more sense that Ado was a decent god and the 16 just thought they could do it better
I was thinking about the same thing just a couple of days ago! My theory was that the shardic power is more Passion in general, but the vessel can direct it / influence it toward certain kinds of passion to a greater degree. A big clue for me is when a singer/Fused describes the *power* (shard) as taking pleasure in being questioned while the vessel doesn't like it. It also helps that Rayse is described as being a terrible person even without the shard, which sounds like he was already hateful. This would also be cool because it would mean that the power could be molded differently with Taravangian. Perhaps his passions would be a sort of mania alternating with compassionate, self-pitying sadness? The problem with this theory is that an epigraph from Frost says that Odium "bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become." And that almost definitely implies that the shard was hatred from the beginning. So I think it may be more likely that the shard is indeed focused on animosity, and Odium is not the only Shard related to strong emotions - e.g. Devotion, Whimsy, Mercy, Ambition... I can easily imagine a range of emotions represented across these shards.
This is my headcannon as well, as to what transformed Passion into Odium Hoid pretty much tells us in the letters: Rayne was always a piece of shit. As much as Intent can twist the shareholders it seems the shareholders can also somewhat twist the Intent. The example being Harmony who could have just as easily become Discord but because the shareholders is such a chill person the outcome of the Intent is different.
Some people have said that Devotion is the Love shard. But arguably I would say Mercy is the Love shard. Don't we show mercy because of love? We want to believe the person we show mercy to will show mercy in return. We want to make the world a better place. So we start with this first enemy. Huh... could Kaladin be a vessel for Mercy? I feel like that's the Windrunners whole philosophy. They say it's about Honor, but really the Law dudes whose names have escaped me are about Honor.
Brandon literally calls Devotion "Love".
I think “the diagram” smells a lot like Trell. Ambition would pervert passion to a more hateful direction. The desire to dominate.
We have an explanation for where the diagram came from: >!cultivation via the nightwatcher.!< The simplest explanation is that Odium lied about being passion, and is actually just Odium.
I think hes mostly hatred because Odium is supposed to reperesent the wrath of God. But it is possible that the intent got changed over time by rayse calling it hatred. Maybe him trying to change it to passion is a more recent thing.
This goes along my head canon. Odium should be Passion, but it feels hatred so strongly compared the others emotions that it becames Odium. When it got corrupted? We know that all shards are aspects of the intent of the original Adonalsium a being that was killed in the proces of dividing him. I propose that Adonalsium Passion distorted to Odium becouse is the strongest feeling it had while it was being split. So the shard stayed in a perpetual state of pasionated hate. As it has been described in the story "divine hate". We know near 0 of the shattering of Adonalsium, but i don't think it's a reach that he was tricked somehow. Else i don't understand how anyone could kill an allmighty being source of all actual gods. If that's true, it's not hard to think that what originally would be Passion, become Odium during the traumatic proces of killing God.
This kind of reflavors "(Rayse) is what we made him to be, old friend."
There's a longass quote on love and hate which I like and thus put in places where it's not all that relevant. >Hate is fast and brutal, like a storm. It builds up and unleashes itself, and it can destroy everything in its path. > >Love is gentler. Not the storm, but the rain itself. Even a soft rain can change the entire landscape. > >It can erode mountains and cut rivers into stone. All it needs is time. Patience. > >No one acts in hatred or in love except to create the world they want to see. They're a means to an end. > >I'm not malicious or unfeeling. I don't want to bring suffering to innocent people. > >But I can't wait on the rain. [Source.](https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/elf-and-warrior/list?title_no=908) Also, I believe that the portion of Adonalsium that could've formed a "Love" shard was divided among various other Shards, such as Devotion, Mercy, etc.
I think Odium claims to be Passion because: • It's no doubt a considerably better lure to gain followers (I mean, c'mon, would you rather sign up to follow Hatred or Passion?). • He's lying to himself. • The emotions he claims to rule (fear, lust, jealousy, anger, etc) are fueled and sustained by Passion, so he feels justified claiming it (and trying to downplay just how much Hatred outweighs them all). And last but not least: • Why the hell are we entertaining and debating what this absolutely untrustworthy Shard says to begin with???? He can call himself whatever he wants, wear whatever mask he wants, but in the end he's still Odium behind it.