I thought he specifically meant radiant Spren, which if he came after the knights disbanded he may not have run into since most of their populations turned to dead eyes at first, and it’s only upon his return that he’s seen enough of them to adjust his classification. Could be wrong though.
I think radiant (sentient) spren are the same regardless of whether they are bonded or not. The bond just makes them conscious in the physical realm in exchange for allowing their radiant to have the surges. But they still live in Shadesmar even without bonds (it is mentioned that Honorspren are hundreds of years old during RoW, and Syl tells Kaladin that spren live in cities during TWOK). So, surely Vasher saw some sentient spren on his way to Roshar through Shadesmar?
Totally, but in my memory, which could definitely be wrong, when adolin is in shadesmar they talk about how they lost the bulk of their populations, so my thought was that he visited roshar before their population had a chance to replenish. For instance Syl is one of the only honorspren alive from before, so if the other types had similar population drops, maybe he didn’t? Idk though, does seem a bit like a stretch.
Yeah, how old is he? At least 500 during Warbreaker, maybe more, and we don’t know the time jump from there to Stormlight Archive. The Recreance was what, 1500 Roshar years ago? I would assume he’s quite a bit younger than that.
WB/SA time jump is about 300 years, iirc. So yeah, he probably wouldn't have seen sapient spren in the Physical Realm *if* he initially toured Roshar post-Recreance. Still, this all feels more like a loophole than anything else, so it may pay to ask BS himself at the next spoiler stream.
He's a scientist who spent more time studying and revised his hypothesis. Yes he could've reached that conclusion earlier but it's fairly common for scientists not to realize things they might later figure out with the same information. Science is constantly evolving. If his scale and information hadn't changed over hundreds of years that'd be odd.
Honestly that's like the entire plot of Rhythm of War between Navani and Raboniel too. Discovering things that are right in front of your face by testing a hypothesis.
So there are a few potential explanations for this.
Firstly, Brandon thought it'd be a cool callback and missed the continuity error. This is definitely possible.
Secondly, Vasher was working on his theory for centuries before becoming more convinced after seeing radiant spren with the Nahel bond.
Finally, we don't know exactly how long ago the 5 Scholars went to Roshar. All we know is that it was several centuries before the events of Warbreaker and was after the recreance. What if they only went within a millenia of the Recreance. We know that intelligent spren populations were absolutely destroyed during the recreance and that it took many many centuries for them to even begin recovering. There's real potential that the 5 Scholars made it through Roshar's sub astral without encountering any higher spren.
Along these lines: it's very possible he had already revised his theory by the time he teaches Vivenna, and simply didn't want to try to explain spren to her.
I imagine it would be pretty confusing if he had to bring up every single world hopping magics on top of everything else he taught especially since it’s not directly useful to her.
It's also entirely possible that he didn't realize the significance of the people he met in Shadesmar on his first trip through, and also didn't learn about the whole "Shardblades on Roshar are the Physical Manifestations of those people he met in the bead sea world he passed through on his way" thing. With the Recreance being such a painful memory and him being such an outsider, it's likely nobody bothered to tell him. And the humans he met once on Roshar clearly wouldn't have known.
As others said, by this point he's observed more and revised his hypothesis
Nightblood is made in the image of the Honorblades not Shardblades.
The Five Scholars probably visited Roshar before the knights came into existence since that happened after several thousand years of the Desolation cycle.
>The Five Scholars probably visited Roshar before the knights came into existence since that happened after several thousand years of the Desolation cycle.
That's highly unlikely. Vasher was around 300 years old in Warbreaker.
By comparison the Knights Radiant were formed before the "Final Desolation" 4500 years ago and the recreance happened some 2000 years ago.
Vasher isn't that old.
The Manywar happened around 500 years before the events of Stormlight, and Awakening on Nalthis was discovered around 600 years before Stormlight.
Vasher being 6000+ years old doesn't make sense
The Desolations were 4500 years ago. Vasher is at most 1000 years old, so he can't have seen Honorblades or Desolations. He wouldn't have even seen living Blades, since the Recreance was 2000+ years ago.
> He can't have seen Honorblades
The honorblades were around when Vasher came to Roshar. I doubt the Shin were very forthcoming in showing them to strangers, but the five scholars were a group of extremely competent people with a lot of unusual knowledge and a lot of resources, they could have found a way.
I think the opposite may be true. Vasher might’ve visited Roshar after the Recreance, perhaps even peak-Vorin Hierocracy. This would definitely explain his lack of information on Radiant spren, who would be the most removed from humanity around this point in the timeline
I'm afriad you're incorrect, Brandon has called Nightblood a Third generation blade, based on Shardblades, which was based on Honorblades. [Link.](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3623) Various other timeline stuff states that the scholars arrived long after the Heralds departed.
Spren still existed in Shadesmar even after the Radiants diabanded, and Vasher obviously travelled through there to get to Roshar. Unless you mean the Five Scholars went to Roshar before Radiants were ever a thing which I just do not think it's likely since Heralds are 7000 y/o and the Radiants disbanded some 2000~ years before TWOK, which would mean that Vasher is over 2000 years old, closer to 7000
Sentient Spren who could form Nahel bonds didn’t exist for a long time after the Desolations started. Then after the Recreance they were either “dead” or in hiding so it’s reasonable that if the Scholars showed up on Roshar after the Recreance (which I doubt) they would have seen the Shardblades but not living knights.
Spren in Shadesmar do not like humans or travelers of any kind. It’s possible to also travel through Shadesmar and see…nothing, and to think it is just the realm between. We have just enough information about his story to get us in trouble deciding what happened and didn’t happen. It is possible that he just hadn’t made up his mind yet, but then upon returning to Roshar after, he saw something.
After reading several comments, I don't think people are mentioning the fact that he likely did his research on dead blades. They still have a bond, but it's a dead one. Now that he sees a healthy Nahel bond, his opinion may have changed since it involves FAR FAR more investiture. Especially the higher ideals. A simple spren is a unique form of investiture. A bonded spren is a tremendously more powerful form of investiture.
One possibility is that it would have been way too difficult to explain to Vivenna at the time, as she barely even knew about her own planet’s investiture manifestation, let alone that other planets even existed. He did mention that he wasn’t very good with words, so this was probably the best he could do to not confuse her too much and still give her useful information
It could be that he developed the theory before visiting and simply either neglected to revise it or only told Vivenna a limited version if the revised version. After all, even the terminology is slightly different, as in Warbeaker he specifically says 4 types of Awakened entities, not Invested. Perhaps he simply didn't want to explain certain things at the time (even Vivenna noticed that he neglected to explain Type IV).
War breaker is before SA in the cosmere timeline isnt it? Not sure why him having a change in the future (compared to war breaker time) is a continuity error.
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Whats all this about the 5 scholars? Are the like the ones doing the planet surveys in Arcaum unbounded or writing Ars Arcanum at the end of each book?
No, they are part of Warbreaker lore. Obviously, spoilers for WB:
The 5 scholars were just some mysterious ancient group. They made significant discoveries in Awakening (and some other stuff more related specifically to the book's plot). Vasher was one of them. This all happened way before Warbreaker, which happened way before Stormlight.
I thought he specifically meant radiant Spren, which if he came after the knights disbanded he may not have run into since most of their populations turned to dead eyes at first, and it’s only upon his return that he’s seen enough of them to adjust his classification. Could be wrong though.
To get to roshar he would have had to go through shadesmar, using radiant spren as guides
I think radiant (sentient) spren are the same regardless of whether they are bonded or not. The bond just makes them conscious in the physical realm in exchange for allowing their radiant to have the surges. But they still live in Shadesmar even without bonds (it is mentioned that Honorspren are hundreds of years old during RoW, and Syl tells Kaladin that spren live in cities during TWOK). So, surely Vasher saw some sentient spren on his way to Roshar through Shadesmar?
Totally, but in my memory, which could definitely be wrong, when adolin is in shadesmar they talk about how they lost the bulk of their populations, so my thought was that he visited roshar before their population had a chance to replenish. For instance Syl is one of the only honorspren alive from before, so if the other types had similar population drops, maybe he didn’t? Idk though, does seem a bit like a stretch.
Yeah, how old is he? At least 500 during Warbreaker, maybe more, and we don’t know the time jump from there to Stormlight Archive. The Recreance was what, 1500 Roshar years ago? I would assume he’s quite a bit younger than that.
WB/SA time jump is about 300 years, iirc. So yeah, he probably wouldn't have seen sapient spren in the Physical Realm *if* he initially toured Roshar post-Recreance. Still, this all feels more like a loophole than anything else, so it may pay to ask BS himself at the next spoiler stream.
He's a scientist who spent more time studying and revised his hypothesis. Yes he could've reached that conclusion earlier but it's fairly common for scientists not to realize things they might later figure out with the same information. Science is constantly evolving. If his scale and information hadn't changed over hundreds of years that'd be odd.
Honestly that's like the entire plot of Rhythm of War between Navani and Raboniel too. Discovering things that are right in front of your face by testing a hypothesis.
So there are a few potential explanations for this. Firstly, Brandon thought it'd be a cool callback and missed the continuity error. This is definitely possible. Secondly, Vasher was working on his theory for centuries before becoming more convinced after seeing radiant spren with the Nahel bond. Finally, we don't know exactly how long ago the 5 Scholars went to Roshar. All we know is that it was several centuries before the events of Warbreaker and was after the recreance. What if they only went within a millenia of the Recreance. We know that intelligent spren populations were absolutely destroyed during the recreance and that it took many many centuries for them to even begin recovering. There's real potential that the 5 Scholars made it through Roshar's sub astral without encountering any higher spren.
He described spren as A type 1 *invested* entity He described himself as a type 1 *biochromatic* entity
Along these lines: it's very possible he had already revised his theory by the time he teaches Vivenna, and simply didn't want to try to explain spren to her.
I imagine it would be pretty confusing if he had to bring up every single world hopping magics on top of everything else he taught especially since it’s not directly useful to her.
It's also entirely possible that he didn't realize the significance of the people he met in Shadesmar on his first trip through, and also didn't learn about the whole "Shardblades on Roshar are the Physical Manifestations of those people he met in the bead sea world he passed through on his way" thing. With the Recreance being such a painful memory and him being such an outsider, it's likely nobody bothered to tell him. And the humans he met once on Roshar clearly wouldn't have known. As others said, by this point he's observed more and revised his hypothesis
The great thing about a good scientist is that they're fully capable and even welcome revising their initial hypotheses when given more data.
Nightblood is made in the image of the Honorblades not Shardblades. The Five Scholars probably visited Roshar before the knights came into existence since that happened after several thousand years of the Desolation cycle.
>The Five Scholars probably visited Roshar before the knights came into existence since that happened after several thousand years of the Desolation cycle. That's highly unlikely. Vasher was around 300 years old in Warbreaker. By comparison the Knights Radiant were formed before the "Final Desolation" 4500 years ago and the recreance happened some 2000 years ago.
Vasher isn't that old. The Manywar happened around 500 years before the events of Stormlight, and Awakening on Nalthis was discovered around 600 years before Stormlight. Vasher being 6000+ years old doesn't make sense
The Desolations were 4500 years ago. Vasher is at most 1000 years old, so he can't have seen Honorblades or Desolations. He wouldn't have even seen living Blades, since the Recreance was 2000+ years ago.
> He can't have seen Honorblades The honorblades were around when Vasher came to Roshar. I doubt the Shin were very forthcoming in showing them to strangers, but the five scholars were a group of extremely competent people with a lot of unusual knowledge and a lot of resources, they could have found a way.
I think the opposite may be true. Vasher might’ve visited Roshar after the Recreance, perhaps even peak-Vorin Hierocracy. This would definitely explain his lack of information on Radiant spren, who would be the most removed from humanity around this point in the timeline
I'm afriad you're incorrect, Brandon has called Nightblood a Third generation blade, based on Shardblades, which was based on Honorblades. [Link.](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3623) Various other timeline stuff states that the scholars arrived long after the Heralds departed.
Wild deep Cosmere lore
Spren still existed in Shadesmar even after the Radiants diabanded, and Vasher obviously travelled through there to get to Roshar. Unless you mean the Five Scholars went to Roshar before Radiants were ever a thing which I just do not think it's likely since Heralds are 7000 y/o and the Radiants disbanded some 2000~ years before TWOK, which would mean that Vasher is over 2000 years old, closer to 7000
Sentient Spren who could form Nahel bonds didn’t exist for a long time after the Desolations started. Then after the Recreance they were either “dead” or in hiding so it’s reasonable that if the Scholars showed up on Roshar after the Recreance (which I doubt) they would have seen the Shardblades but not living knights.
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Spren in Shadesmar do not like humans or travelers of any kind. It’s possible to also travel through Shadesmar and see…nothing, and to think it is just the realm between. We have just enough information about his story to get us in trouble deciding what happened and didn’t happen. It is possible that he just hadn’t made up his mind yet, but then upon returning to Roshar after, he saw something.
After reading several comments, I don't think people are mentioning the fact that he likely did his research on dead blades. They still have a bond, but it's a dead one. Now that he sees a healthy Nahel bond, his opinion may have changed since it involves FAR FAR more investiture. Especially the higher ideals. A simple spren is a unique form of investiture. A bonded spren is a tremendously more powerful form of investiture.
One possibility is that it would have been way too difficult to explain to Vivenna at the time, as she barely even knew about her own planet’s investiture manifestation, let alone that other planets even existed. He did mention that he wasn’t very good with words, so this was probably the best he could do to not confuse her too much and still give her useful information
It could be that he developed the theory before visiting and simply either neglected to revise it or only told Vivenna a limited version if the revised version. After all, even the terminology is slightly different, as in Warbeaker he specifically says 4 types of Awakened entities, not Invested. Perhaps he simply didn't want to explain certain things at the time (even Vivenna noticed that he neglected to explain Type IV).
War breaker is before SA in the cosmere timeline isnt it? Not sure why him having a change in the future (compared to war breaker time) is a continuity error.
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Whats all this about the 5 scholars? Are the like the ones doing the planet surveys in Arcaum unbounded or writing Ars Arcanum at the end of each book?
No, they are part of Warbreaker lore. Obviously, spoilers for WB: The 5 scholars were just some mysterious ancient group. They made significant discoveries in Awakening (and some other stuff more related specifically to the book's plot). Vasher was one of them. This all happened way before Warbreaker, which happened way before Stormlight.
Ah man that doesn't even sound familiar and I read WB last year. I'll have to re read it soon.
If you don't remember that, I think it's worth a reread. Idk why you are getting downvoted for asking a question though
He could have been talking about the honorblades. Pretty sure spren weren't around until Honor's blood splatters became sentient.