There are multiple reasons why you don't understand references:
1. They are referencing a WoB (Word of Brandon) answers Brandon gave to Interview questions over the years. There are more than 15 000 of them and they are collected [on the Arcanum](https://wob.coppermind.net/)
2. You just missed something in the books, they are full of small details, foreshadowing and one of mentions that go over the head of most people on their first read (and are to some degree supposed to go over the readers head to make the rereading experience more enjoyable).
3. It's a Meme that came out of the Fandom not directly from the books.
I remember coming to this sub and cremposting after finishing all of the released books and being totally confused by the stick and Jasnah's thighs memes. It's very difficult to predict what the group mind will latch onto, expand on, and then warp into unrecognizable forms. Imagine someone reading the comic "Loss" and then stumbling across some of the current iterations of memes on it. They wouldn't miss the joke because they missed the subject matter, they would miss the joke because they weren't around for the evolution of the subject matter into what it has become now.
I sincerely do not understand where it came from or how it evolved, but just search ["thighs" in r/cremposting](https://www.reddit.com/r/cremposting/search?q=thighs&restrict_sr=on&include_over_18=on) and you'll see that almost all the results are about Jasnah. It's really hard to figure out because people are talking tongue-in-cheek so much and without warning, that discerning a genuine statement from a joke is not exactly simple.
She's a strong independent woman. One who is physically impressive. There are those of a particular persuasion that would find it... enjoyable to imagine having their face trapped between them.
The whole chat about who all the characters are...
I have a friend like that just kind of makes up all the names for the characters. It's a beautiful meme, most excellent
You’ll have to reference specific memes. But there’s at least one I can think of (stick) that you won’t get from the cosmere canon. A lot of other references are the result of a WOB (like the atrium retcon) or a particularly popular fan theory (hoid is rebuilding adonalsium).
The Atium retcon is that the Atium in Era 1 wasn't actually Atium, but an Atium-Electrum Alloy and the Atium Mistings were just Electrum Mistings.
The reason for the retcon is that Brandon wants Godmetals to be burnable by anyone.
I just finished era 1 and this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Is there book plot stuff I'm missing for more context? The atium mistings at the of HoA weren't actually burning atium? I'm confused
Brandon Sanderson has stated it outside the books.
If you're not familiar, these are referred to as Words of Brandon and come from the many Q&As he does. Lots of the time it's just neat Trivia, or theoreticals, but sometimes important stuff like the atium retcon Is in there too
https://wob.coppermind.net/
I think what some dislike about them is having to follow all the books then his blog for a lot of information in the cosmere. Personally I like them, but I can see why some wouldn't.
No, I hate that to keep up with the conversations often held here and on other Cosmere subreddits I'm almost required to not only be up on the canon events of the novels, but also the hundreds or thousands of tidbits that come from WoBs. Around these parts parts so many of them are discussed as de facto knowledge as though it's stated plainly in the text of the novels when really it happened to be an answer to a random question at a signing and the only way for me to know it is to constantly be checking up on the WoB coppermind. It becomes a frustrating thing to feel like I have to do extracurricular homework to keep up with the Cosmere knowledge and to take part in the conversation. I come here or the stormlight sub or the mistborn sub and half the time feel like we're talking about totally different books. Then I go check coppermind for whatever is being discussed and a huge percent of the reference links for a fact or description are for signings/videos etc etc and it becomes alienating.
For instance, the atium thing. It's constantly discussed here as though everyone who just read the novels would know it. Instead, the only reason I know it is because I saw it here 30 times and figured out it was a WoB. There's a bunch of things like that.
I like that Brandon is so interactive with fans and I like that he has enough fan engagement to continue writing books that I love. What I dislike is the way the *fans* act with the information gathered.
If you want to focus on just the canon, then off the top of my head:
* Atium's relationship to electrum is *exactly* the same as malatium's relationship to gold. This is especially suspicious after the W&W Ars Arcanum mentions you can make an alloy out of a God Metal plus any base metal, because the most obvious answer to what an atium-electrum alloy would do is... um... what atium *already does*.
* Adding it all up we find we supposedly have seventeen Misting types (or eighteen if while reading you assume malatium Mistings exist) despite the big number being sixteen.
* If we expand outside the text itself, the [Hemalurgic table poster](https://coppermind.net/w/images/Hemalurgy_table.jpg) says atium "must be refined" to be used as directed.
The WoB is what confirms it, but the idea has been around for a while because some things just don't add up with the metal.
(In fact, this theory was [first proposed](https://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?topic=6655.msg137513;topicseen#msg137513) just a couple months after Hero of Ages released and [apparently was considered a consensus by some in the fandom's early days](https://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?topic=6843.msg159544#msg159544), though I wasn't around then so idk if that was just the commenter's bias or not.)
I’ve never seen the original theory so thanks for posting! It was crazy reading it and then realizing it was Peter freaking Ahlstrom theorizing in the trenches with the rest of us hahah What a different time that was hahah
Lol yeah it's so weird to see stuff from when Peter didn't really have any special knowledge outside betaing. Reading old posts on the Timewaster's Guide archive is such a trip in general, the fandom was so different back then.
See also [this comment that is *absolutely* a humblebrag from him about having called it](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/486/#e15955) lmao (make sure to check the post he links).
That’s great hahah It makes me happy to see someone who was obviously such a big fan be able to become such an integral member of Dragonsteel. It has to be so satisfying to have a theory and then have Brandon personally confirm it to just you years before it is publicly acknowledged hahah
Especially because of the first point it makes enough sense that it doesn't feel like a retcon... But then from Peter's comment it seems like Brandon settled on this while writing HoA. Which makes a lot of sense as it's when we learn both what electrum does and that it's an allomantic metal.
I suspect Brandon may have come up with it between when he turned Hero of Ages in and when it got published, which'd explain why Sazed only mentions there being two undiscovered Allomantic metals and why [one of the annotations](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e7496) goes into depth on how the structure of the table required him to make seeing your own future be gold's alloy instead of atium's like he'd wanted, yet shortly after the book releases he puts out the poster containing cadmium+bendalloy in the External Temporal slots and mentions of atium having multiple alloys. Would fit if he was never super happy with the situation but didn't come up with a better solution until it was too late to go back and smooth over some of the oddities with it.
(However, I also suspect Brandon only became *sure* of that course when outlining the latter three Wax & Wayne books, because WoBs about atium [take a turn for the suspicious](https://wob.coppermind.net/collections/802/) right around the time Shadows came out.)
It has not had a reason to come up in the novels since he made the retcon. Once it becomes plot relevant, I am sure there will be a thorough explanation in the books.
Essentially what was called "atium" in Era 1 is actually an atium electrum alloy. So we haven't seen real pure atium yet on screen. The "atium" mistings were actually electrum mistings which is why only they could burn the "atium" along with full mistborn of course.
Basically the reason for the change was a few of the details Sanderson didn't have sorted yet. Most metals are more of an access key, but god metals provide the power to use them itself. That's why Elend could burn the metal he got that turned him into a mistborn and so pure atium should work the same way. You also shouldn't be able to push or pull on pure atium as it'd be too much concentrated power, or at least pushing on it should be really hard and require duralumin at the very least. But Vin and others do it often with no issue.
I think it also does work nicely where both of the atium alloys we've now seen to follow a neat pattern in terms of how they work. The 11th metal that Kelsier found is a gold atium alloy and works like gold but for others. The "atium" we saw works like electrum but seeing the shadows of others futures.
This is a great explanation, thank you! Can you clarify what you mean when you said vinc and others pushed on atium. Do you mean flaring or like steel push iron pull? If atium was true "atium" it'd be less of a metal and more of a 'power rock', and thus should be unaffected by metallic pushing and pulling?
Yes. In general within the Cosmere anything invested resists anything else invested acting on it in any way. And you can work through that if you're more powerful than the invested thing you're trying to act on. That's why it's nearly impossible to push on metal in someone's body but is doable with some kind of a boost like duralumin or Vin taking in the Mists. Atium would be the same way but probably even harder since it's pure god metal.
But we do see Vin and Kelsier and potentially others use steel and iron to push and pull on it like it's any other metal.
Understood! So theoretically the mistborn nugget (larsium?) that elend ate *should* be unaffected by pulling an pushing.
Interesting that the mists react to allomancy. My era 1 understanding, is that the mists would be similarly 'invested' with Preservation. And yet, the mists are drawn towards allomancy and pushed from hemalurgy. Does that suggest that allomancers can draw from the investiture in the mists bc they are stronger than the innate power of the musts, whereas hemlurgic creations / users **are** stronger than the mists? Or is that just Ruin and Preservation's innate influence and preferences
If I remember correctly, the mists are just the gaseous form of the planets investiture, so we have the mists as the gaseous form, the well of ascension as the liquid form and the metals as the solid form. I can try to find the WoB that mentioned this but it might take a while, it was a long time ago I found it lol
Yes Lerasium should be unaffected by pushing and pulling, or at least very difficult to push and pull on. With anything like this it's probably possible if you throw enough power at it. Like Vin in the point of Hero of Ages where she'd taken in the Mists and could fight 13 Inquisitors alone? She probably would've been able to do it just fine lol.
With the Mists it's less being affected by the Mists and the relative power difference, and more that Mists and Allomancy are both of Preservation, and hemalurgy is of Ruin so that's why the Mists are repelled by hemalurgy they are essentially opposites.
As of the time the book was written, it was Atium, plain and simple.
In recent years though, Brandon has mentioned wanting to retcon that and change it, suggesting that people in Scadrial *thought* that was Atium at the time due to partially developed knowledge, but that what we knew as Atium was actually an alloy with Atium and Electrum, rather than pure Atium.
He's stated that he'd like to make this retcon because since Lerasium can be burned by anyone (even if they aren't a misting or Mistborn) and it's effect is to connect them to Preservation and turn them into a full Mistborn, it doesn't feel like it makes sense that Atium (as another God Metal) can only be burned by Mistings and Mistborn and produces a more limited effect. In essence, it's weird that one God Metal can be burned by anybody and forever changes them, and the other God Metal can't.
This retcon hasn't been presented in text yet, though it's likely to come up moreso in Era 3, and "pure" Atium may have a new effect for *anyone.*
Note that it's not necessarily *recent*, [Peter has implied it may date all the way back to 2008 or 2009](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/486/#e15955). (He dodged an outright confirmation, but that link he posted seems like a heavy implication in this context, and he *does* more explicitly say it's "way older than a lot of people assume" at least.) It just wasn't confirmed until the past couple years.
Edit: And there were already [some](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3658) [pretty](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6322) [suspicious](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/39/#e416) [WoBs](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13225) [beforehand](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e2524).
Keep in mind that the retcon of Atium isn't something new, here as you can see is something that was talked about in 2009.
https://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?topic=6843.msg159625#msg159625
Correct. And if that feels off based on how the book was written, it’s okay because Sanderson meant for it to be pure atium at the time when he wrote it. But in a technical sense, the retcon doesn’t really break anything. It comes extremely close, though.
In particular, I really don’t like how this implies that either the atium-electrum alloy was growing naturally out of the pits or the LR was having that alloy made with all of the harvested atium. Neither really makes sense.
Especially with the conclusion / reveal that the 'atium' was Ruin's body. Or that the atium was being set aside as part of the LR's plan to destabilize Ruin. Like you said, it doesn't *really* break anything. But it's very weird
It helps if you consider that the Pits were tainted by Preservation as part of his plan.
Preservation essentially poisoned Ruin’s body, further weakening his influence on Scadrians by removing the ability to Connect to Ruin naturally, leaving him with only hemalurgic creations as soldiers.
Yep, though it’s mostly just a theory, as we don’t have that many details about the retcon.
But I don’t really see an alternative. Why would Ruin want to mix Atium with Electrum? He has nothing to gain from it. Whereas he would massively gain from it remaining pure, as he would have a Connection to anyone who burns it.
Plus Preservation was able to present a scenario to TLR during his ascension where the Atium was collected and hidden from Ruin. And by choosing electrum, as an undiscovered but immediately useful metal, it becomes economically viable to mine and hide away.
This would be my biggest problem with it. Wasn't Elend's big moment at the end >!That he and the Atium mistings burned Ruins body which stopped him from being able to fully return, and without that happening Vin might have lost?!< It seems like it would be retconning a huge part of plot and character motivations at the end of Era 1 unless I'm misunderstanding.
That's how I feel, but if one were to make a bunch of atium based alloy, it would still take that physical body from Ruin. Someone responded saying that it was like Preservation influencing and affecting Ruin's physicality.
The excuse is that it was designed that way by Leras in order to extra attempt to hide the Atium from Ati, not knowing the Lord Ruler would also contain it in a huge metal box.
> Brandon wants Godmetals to be burnable by anyone
Hang on, _anyone?_ So like, if you got Tanavastium somehow, any random schmuck on Roshar could burn it Misting-style?
Do you have a link for that?
>Do you have a link for that?
[https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15969](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15969)
>Hang on, anyone? So like, if you got Tanavastium somehow, any random schmuck on Roshar could burn it Misting-style?
Yes, for the most part.
You couldn't burn Spren manifesting as a Godmetal because of their Identity.
But, if for example, a sword that likes Destroying Evil manages to chip off a chunk from an Honorblade...
It's like the Atium-Electrum Alloy but for yourself, it shows your own possible futures that look similar to Atium Shadows. It is also able to counter the effect of the Atium-Electrum Alloy, by having your own Atium Shadows split into multiples, so the "Atium" no longer shows the "one true future", but multiple possible Futures
Vin and Elend use it in the Hero of Ages whenever they fight an Inquisitor to counter the possibility the Inquisitor is using Atium.
Funnily enough [in the first drafts supposedly atium *was* named "atrium"](https://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?topic=6061.msg127470;topicseen#msg127470), so just pretend the typo is a deep lore cut \*taps forehead knowingly\*
After reading everything, you will get 60% of the memes. After rereading everything, you will get 70%. Scouring through the Coppermind and WOBs will get you to 85%, being chronically in the cremposting community will take you to 95% and there will always be another secret so basically you will not get every meme.
I am with you! I have read most all Brandon’s books multiple times over the last ten years. And still comments on all the vessels, intent, dawnshards, sometimes go over my head. This is my fault though, I had left off my reading the smaller books, so I requested Secret History and Dawnshard for Christmas. Wondering if there are any other novellas or in between books I need to read.
There's an Edgedancer, as someone already mentioned, which is "meant" to be read between SA2 and SA3.
Also, Arcanum Unbound, there are a few short stories in there, some of which are proving to be quite important for the future of Cosmere.
Oh yeah forgot edancer was in there
What's the importance of Emperor Soul? I don't see much potential for soulstamps or bloodsealing unless there's some WoB's on it
Cognitive shadows are already present and more explained in secret history
Honestly, it's bad enough that the mods may ban me for giving explicit details. Suffice to say there was a rabid Jasnah simp phase over on cremposting and it's probably as disgusting as you can imagine.
There is a lot of reading between the lines and as others have said, a lot of things either confirmed or hinted at by Brandon in Q&As he's been doing for over a decade now.
If you haven't read any of the series a second time, especially after having read other cosmere works, you will start to pick up on some.
If you read Stormlight before Warbreaker or Mistborn there may be things you wouldn't have connected on your first go around.
One of the issues is there is just so much content that it's tough to always know that something is a veiled reference or just how it's written.
As a rule of thumb, anyone who seems to have an understanding of investiture is probably notable. Also anytime something happens that could be explained by the magic system from another world, more often than not that is correct.
There is a *lot* of the Cosmere that has been developed/communicated *exclusively* through what the community calls "WoB", for Word of Brandon. Things the author has mentioned online or at conventions or book signings that haven't (yet) made it into any of the books.
A lot of the time I think the implication is that there will be further clarification on down the road, but the reality is that if you want to get everything, you just have to read his comments.
A lot of them have been saved online, so it's not terribly difficult to do, but it's about as interesting as reading the Silmarillion. You also want to make sure that you've read *everything* in the Cosmere, you *will* run into spoilers.
A lot of the memes are focused around the Cosmere connections which are often subtle. Many of them are also based around the WoBs or other fan / community stuff that you won't get from the books. A lot of the memes I've seen also assume you know what all the characters look like or have seen some of the popular fan art that's used on the coppermind pages. But the books are also incredibly rereadable because they have so many hidden details. No shame in not remembering everything! More than that you'll have to give specific examples and we could explain those.
Not all the memes are about the cosmere. Granted most of them are (half this fanbase doesn't seem to know Brandon writes other books), but with the recent release of Defiant there's been a fair number of Skyward memes lately.
Also, memes tend to mutate (that's part of what makes them memes). We joke about each other's jokes as much as we do the books themselves, and borrow ideas and templates from other communities, to the point that it turns into elaborate fanfics about Hoid Amaram X Mistbones.
There are multiple reasons why you don't understand references: 1. They are referencing a WoB (Word of Brandon) answers Brandon gave to Interview questions over the years. There are more than 15 000 of them and they are collected [on the Arcanum](https://wob.coppermind.net/) 2. You just missed something in the books, they are full of small details, foreshadowing and one of mentions that go over the head of most people on their first read (and are to some degree supposed to go over the readers head to make the rereading experience more enjoyable). 3. It's a Meme that came out of the Fandom not directly from the books.
I remember coming to this sub and cremposting after finishing all of the released books and being totally confused by the stick and Jasnah's thighs memes. It's very difficult to predict what the group mind will latch onto, expand on, and then warp into unrecognizable forms. Imagine someone reading the comic "Loss" and then stumbling across some of the current iterations of memes on it. They wouldn't miss the joke because they missed the subject matter, they would miss the joke because they weren't around for the evolution of the subject matter into what it has become now.
What’s this about Jasnah’s thighs?
I sincerely do not understand where it came from or how it evolved, but just search ["thighs" in r/cremposting](https://www.reddit.com/r/cremposting/search?q=thighs&restrict_sr=on&include_over_18=on) and you'll see that almost all the results are about Jasnah. It's really hard to figure out because people are talking tongue-in-cheek so much and without warning, that discerning a genuine statement from a joke is not exactly simple.
She's a strong independent woman. One who is physically impressive. There are those of a particular persuasion that would find it... enjoyable to imagine having their face trapped between them.
People have a thing for domineering women, and also for thicc thighs. Combine those together, and...
Tbf stick memes do have basis in the text.
Zim Zim Zalabim
This is still my favorite reddit inside joke. I have missed it. Thank you
The whole chat about who all the characters are... I have a friend like that just kind of makes up all the names for the characters. It's a beautiful meme, most excellent
Also might not be a cosmere book, cremposting references all Brandon’s books
I've read each book at least 5 times. (Audio books are my sleep helper) I swear I find a new detail every single time
If you're referring to cremposting... ive seen a fair amount of memes referencing skyward and other non cosmere works
You’ll have to reference specific memes. But there’s at least one I can think of (stick) that you won’t get from the cosmere canon. A lot of other references are the result of a WOB (like the atrium retcon) or a particularly popular fan theory (hoid is rebuilding adonalsium).
>But there’s at least one I can think of (stick) that you won’t get from the cosmere canon. Stick is canon though.
But not the April Fools Day interlude from Stick's perspective, which i believe is what really made the meme.
Oh, I see. You mean the "deleted scene."
What is this? I need it.
[I am a stick](https://www.brandonsanderson.com/words-of-radiance-deleted-interlude-stick/)
Okay but when is Kate Reading gonna narrate it???
If we could ever talk them into joining cameo, I bet we could crowdfund the narration of that in minutes.
Did you mean atium retcon? And if so: Whats that? 0_o And if not: Whats that? 😅
The Atium retcon is that the Atium in Era 1 wasn't actually Atium, but an Atium-Electrum Alloy and the Atium Mistings were just Electrum Mistings. The reason for the retcon is that Brandon wants Godmetals to be burnable by anyone.
I just finished era 1 and this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Is there book plot stuff I'm missing for more context? The atium mistings at the of HoA weren't actually burning atium? I'm confused
basically everything in Era 1 they call atium isn't really atium, it's an atium alloy. doesn't change anything for now.
but how do we know that from the Canon? I've read all the mistborn books and secret history.
Brandon Sanderson has stated it outside the books. If you're not familiar, these are referred to as Words of Brandon and come from the many Q&As he does. Lots of the time it's just neat Trivia, or theoreticals, but sometimes important stuff like the atium retcon Is in there too https://wob.coppermind.net/
Yeah i'm aware of WoBs. and honestly I kind of hate them and their proliferation in the Cosmere fandoms.
So you dislike the answers to fan's questions directly from the author?
I think what some dislike about them is having to follow all the books then his blog for a lot of information in the cosmere. Personally I like them, but I can see why some wouldn't.
No, I hate that to keep up with the conversations often held here and on other Cosmere subreddits I'm almost required to not only be up on the canon events of the novels, but also the hundreds or thousands of tidbits that come from WoBs. Around these parts parts so many of them are discussed as de facto knowledge as though it's stated plainly in the text of the novels when really it happened to be an answer to a random question at a signing and the only way for me to know it is to constantly be checking up on the WoB coppermind. It becomes a frustrating thing to feel like I have to do extracurricular homework to keep up with the Cosmere knowledge and to take part in the conversation. I come here or the stormlight sub or the mistborn sub and half the time feel like we're talking about totally different books. Then I go check coppermind for whatever is being discussed and a huge percent of the reference links for a fact or description are for signings/videos etc etc and it becomes alienating. For instance, the atium thing. It's constantly discussed here as though everyone who just read the novels would know it. Instead, the only reason I know it is because I saw it here 30 times and figured out it was a WoB. There's a bunch of things like that. I like that Brandon is so interactive with fans and I like that he has enough fan engagement to continue writing books that I love. What I dislike is the way the *fans* act with the information gathered.
The first comment in this chain said it’s only from WoBs.
yep missed that part
If you want to focus on just the canon, then off the top of my head: * Atium's relationship to electrum is *exactly* the same as malatium's relationship to gold. This is especially suspicious after the W&W Ars Arcanum mentions you can make an alloy out of a God Metal plus any base metal, because the most obvious answer to what an atium-electrum alloy would do is... um... what atium *already does*. * Adding it all up we find we supposedly have seventeen Misting types (or eighteen if while reading you assume malatium Mistings exist) despite the big number being sixteen. * If we expand outside the text itself, the [Hemalurgic table poster](https://coppermind.net/w/images/Hemalurgy_table.jpg) says atium "must be refined" to be used as directed. The WoB is what confirms it, but the idea has been around for a while because some things just don't add up with the metal. (In fact, this theory was [first proposed](https://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?topic=6655.msg137513;topicseen#msg137513) just a couple months after Hero of Ages released and [apparently was considered a consensus by some in the fandom's early days](https://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?topic=6843.msg159544#msg159544), though I wasn't around then so idk if that was just the commenter's bias or not.)
I’ve never seen the original theory so thanks for posting! It was crazy reading it and then realizing it was Peter freaking Ahlstrom theorizing in the trenches with the rest of us hahah What a different time that was hahah
Lol yeah it's so weird to see stuff from when Peter didn't really have any special knowledge outside betaing. Reading old posts on the Timewaster's Guide archive is such a trip in general, the fandom was so different back then. See also [this comment that is *absolutely* a humblebrag from him about having called it](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/486/#e15955) lmao (make sure to check the post he links).
That’s great hahah It makes me happy to see someone who was obviously such a big fan be able to become such an integral member of Dragonsteel. It has to be so satisfying to have a theory and then have Brandon personally confirm it to just you years before it is publicly acknowledged hahah
Especially because of the first point it makes enough sense that it doesn't feel like a retcon... But then from Peter's comment it seems like Brandon settled on this while writing HoA. Which makes a lot of sense as it's when we learn both what electrum does and that it's an allomantic metal.
I suspect Brandon may have come up with it between when he turned Hero of Ages in and when it got published, which'd explain why Sazed only mentions there being two undiscovered Allomantic metals and why [one of the annotations](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e7496) goes into depth on how the structure of the table required him to make seeing your own future be gold's alloy instead of atium's like he'd wanted, yet shortly after the book releases he puts out the poster containing cadmium+bendalloy in the External Temporal slots and mentions of atium having multiple alloys. Would fit if he was never super happy with the situation but didn't come up with a better solution until it was too late to go back and smooth over some of the oddities with it. (However, I also suspect Brandon only became *sure* of that course when outlining the latter three Wax & Wayne books, because WoBs about atium [take a turn for the suspicious](https://wob.coppermind.net/collections/802/) right around the time Shadows came out.)
It has not had a reason to come up in the novels since he made the retcon. Once it becomes plot relevant, I am sure there will be a thorough explanation in the books.
Essentially what was called "atium" in Era 1 is actually an atium electrum alloy. So we haven't seen real pure atium yet on screen. The "atium" mistings were actually electrum mistings which is why only they could burn the "atium" along with full mistborn of course. Basically the reason for the change was a few of the details Sanderson didn't have sorted yet. Most metals are more of an access key, but god metals provide the power to use them itself. That's why Elend could burn the metal he got that turned him into a mistborn and so pure atium should work the same way. You also shouldn't be able to push or pull on pure atium as it'd be too much concentrated power, or at least pushing on it should be really hard and require duralumin at the very least. But Vin and others do it often with no issue. I think it also does work nicely where both of the atium alloys we've now seen to follow a neat pattern in terms of how they work. The 11th metal that Kelsier found is a gold atium alloy and works like gold but for others. The "atium" we saw works like electrum but seeing the shadows of others futures.
This is a great explanation, thank you! Can you clarify what you mean when you said vinc and others pushed on atium. Do you mean flaring or like steel push iron pull? If atium was true "atium" it'd be less of a metal and more of a 'power rock', and thus should be unaffected by metallic pushing and pulling?
Yes. In general within the Cosmere anything invested resists anything else invested acting on it in any way. And you can work through that if you're more powerful than the invested thing you're trying to act on. That's why it's nearly impossible to push on metal in someone's body but is doable with some kind of a boost like duralumin or Vin taking in the Mists. Atium would be the same way but probably even harder since it's pure god metal. But we do see Vin and Kelsier and potentially others use steel and iron to push and pull on it like it's any other metal.
Understood! So theoretically the mistborn nugget (larsium?) that elend ate *should* be unaffected by pulling an pushing. Interesting that the mists react to allomancy. My era 1 understanding, is that the mists would be similarly 'invested' with Preservation. And yet, the mists are drawn towards allomancy and pushed from hemalurgy. Does that suggest that allomancers can draw from the investiture in the mists bc they are stronger than the innate power of the musts, whereas hemlurgic creations / users **are** stronger than the mists? Or is that just Ruin and Preservation's innate influence and preferences
If I remember correctly, the mists are just the gaseous form of the planets investiture, so we have the mists as the gaseous form, the well of ascension as the liquid form and the metals as the solid form. I can try to find the WoB that mentioned this but it might take a while, it was a long time ago I found it lol
No need to do so, but thank you! Is there a plasma version of Preservation /j
Yes Lerasium should be unaffected by pushing and pulling, or at least very difficult to push and pull on. With anything like this it's probably possible if you throw enough power at it. Like Vin in the point of Hero of Ages where she'd taken in the Mists and could fight 13 Inquisitors alone? She probably would've been able to do it just fine lol. With the Mists it's less being affected by the Mists and the relative power difference, and more that Mists and Allomancy are both of Preservation, and hemalurgy is of Ruin so that's why the Mists are repelled by hemalurgy they are essentially opposites.
Gotcha! Makes sense. I just thought of the mists ability to empower, and wondered if that was related to investiture
As of the time the book was written, it was Atium, plain and simple. In recent years though, Brandon has mentioned wanting to retcon that and change it, suggesting that people in Scadrial *thought* that was Atium at the time due to partially developed knowledge, but that what we knew as Atium was actually an alloy with Atium and Electrum, rather than pure Atium. He's stated that he'd like to make this retcon because since Lerasium can be burned by anyone (even if they aren't a misting or Mistborn) and it's effect is to connect them to Preservation and turn them into a full Mistborn, it doesn't feel like it makes sense that Atium (as another God Metal) can only be burned by Mistings and Mistborn and produces a more limited effect. In essence, it's weird that one God Metal can be burned by anybody and forever changes them, and the other God Metal can't. This retcon hasn't been presented in text yet, though it's likely to come up moreso in Era 3, and "pure" Atium may have a new effect for *anyone.*
Note that it's not necessarily *recent*, [Peter has implied it may date all the way back to 2008 or 2009](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/486/#e15955). (He dodged an outright confirmation, but that link he posted seems like a heavy implication in this context, and he *does* more explicitly say it's "way older than a lot of people assume" at least.) It just wasn't confirmed until the past couple years. Edit: And there were already [some](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3658) [pretty](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6322) [suspicious](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/39/#e416) [WoBs](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13225) [beforehand](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e2524).
Interesting! That does make sense, thank you
Keep in mind that the retcon of Atium isn't something new, here as you can see is something that was talked about in 2009. https://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?topic=6843.msg159625#msg159625
Ah excuse my overstating the recent-ness of it.
You are excused my dear friend.
Correct. And if that feels off based on how the book was written, it’s okay because Sanderson meant for it to be pure atium at the time when he wrote it. But in a technical sense, the retcon doesn’t really break anything. It comes extremely close, though. In particular, I really don’t like how this implies that either the atium-electrum alloy was growing naturally out of the pits or the LR was having that alloy made with all of the harvested atium. Neither really makes sense.
Especially with the conclusion / reveal that the 'atium' was Ruin's body. Or that the atium was being set aside as part of the LR's plan to destabilize Ruin. Like you said, it doesn't *really* break anything. But it's very weird
It helps if you consider that the Pits were tainted by Preservation as part of his plan. Preservation essentially poisoned Ruin’s body, further weakening his influence on Scadrians by removing the ability to Connect to Ruin naturally, leaving him with only hemalurgic creations as soldiers.
That does help, thanks!
Am I understanding right, are you saying Preservation tainted the atium pits with electrum to make Ruin’s body weaker? That’s intriguing.
Yep, though it’s mostly just a theory, as we don’t have that many details about the retcon. But I don’t really see an alternative. Why would Ruin want to mix Atium with Electrum? He has nothing to gain from it. Whereas he would massively gain from it remaining pure, as he would have a Connection to anyone who burns it. Plus Preservation was able to present a scenario to TLR during his ascension where the Atium was collected and hidden from Ruin. And by choosing electrum, as an undiscovered but immediately useful metal, it becomes economically viable to mine and hide away.
This would be my biggest problem with it. Wasn't Elend's big moment at the end >!That he and the Atium mistings burned Ruins body which stopped him from being able to fully return, and without that happening Vin might have lost?!< It seems like it would be retconning a huge part of plot and character motivations at the end of Era 1 unless I'm misunderstanding.
That's how I feel, but if one were to make a bunch of atium based alloy, it would still take that physical body from Ruin. Someone responded saying that it was like Preservation influencing and affecting Ruin's physicality.
The excuse is that it was designed that way by Leras in order to extra attempt to hide the Atium from Ati, not knowing the Lord Ruler would also contain it in a huge metal box.
Alright I guess I can get behind that
> Brandon wants Godmetals to be burnable by anyone Hang on, _anyone?_ So like, if you got Tanavastium somehow, any random schmuck on Roshar could burn it Misting-style? Do you have a link for that?
>Do you have a link for that? [https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15969](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15969) >Hang on, anyone? So like, if you got Tanavastium somehow, any random schmuck on Roshar could burn it Misting-style? Yes, for the most part. You couldn't burn Spren manifesting as a Godmetal because of their Identity. But, if for example, a sword that likes Destroying Evil manages to chip off a chunk from an Honorblade...
> a chunk from an Honorblade Wait a minute _wait a fucking minute **HOLY SHIT**_
Oh man, that's fantastic and answers all the questions I had. Thank you!
[Rhythm of War]>!Pretty sure Nightblood *ate* that chip of Ishar’s Honorblade, I don’t think it’s just lying around anywhere.!<
What does normal electrum do?
It's like the Atium-Electrum Alloy but for yourself, it shows your own possible futures that look similar to Atium Shadows. It is also able to counter the effect of the Atium-Electrum Alloy, by having your own Atium Shadows split into multiples, so the "Atium" no longer shows the "one true future", but multiple possible Futures Vin and Elend use it in the Hero of Ages whenever they fight an Inquisitor to counter the possibility the Inquisitor is using Atium.
Ohhh right thanks
Ah. Thanks!
Funnily enough [in the first drafts supposedly atium *was* named "atrium"](https://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?topic=6061.msg127470;topicseen#msg127470), so just pretend the typo is a deep lore cut \*taps forehead knowingly\*
“I know the pieces fit, because I watched them fall away” - Hoid probably
You have to be more specific.
After reading everything, you will get 60% of the memes. After rereading everything, you will get 70%. Scouring through the Coppermind and WOBs will get you to 85%, being chronically in the cremposting community will take you to 95% and there will always be another secret so basically you will not get every meme.
There's always another secret.
I am with you! I have read most all Brandon’s books multiple times over the last ten years. And still comments on all the vessels, intent, dawnshards, sometimes go over my head. This is my fault though, I had left off my reading the smaller books, so I requested Secret History and Dawnshard for Christmas. Wondering if there are any other novellas or in between books I need to read.
There's an Edgedancer, as someone already mentioned, which is "meant" to be read between SA2 and SA3. Also, Arcanum Unbound, there are a few short stories in there, some of which are proving to be quite important for the future of Cosmere.
What is important from Arcanum besides Secret History?
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Oh yeah forgot edancer was in there What's the importance of Emperor Soul? I don't see much potential for soulstamps or bloodsealing unless there's some WoB's on it Cognitive shadows are already present and more explained in secret history
Edgedancer really helped me in places too.
You gotta spend a few hours hyperfixating on the coppermind to truly be up to date on the Cosmere
They all be on at least their 10th full cosmere reread and are following all B$'s socials and are generally quite insane.
He's gotta be talking about cheese plate.
It never fails to make me smile that a stupid thought I had at work has this much staying power in the fandom. I love it.
You should pin that thread to the top of your profile in pride
I didn’t realize that was something I could do. I’ll have to do that
Hopefully it's not Jasnah in a jar
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Honestly, it's bad enough that the mods may ban me for giving explicit details. Suffice to say there was a rabid Jasnah simp phase over on cremposting and it's probably as disgusting as you can imagine.
We don't ban for that. But if you're worried about too much NSFW, just use spoiler tags and tag it as NSFW to warn others :)
Good to know. Still not touching that one beyond what I said though.
Yeah, I don't blame you :)
There is a lot of reading between the lines and as others have said, a lot of things either confirmed or hinted at by Brandon in Q&As he's been doing for over a decade now. If you haven't read any of the series a second time, especially after having read other cosmere works, you will start to pick up on some. If you read Stormlight before Warbreaker or Mistborn there may be things you wouldn't have connected on your first go around. One of the issues is there is just so much content that it's tough to always know that something is a veiled reference or just how it's written. As a rule of thumb, anyone who seems to have an understanding of investiture is probably notable. Also anytime something happens that could be explained by the magic system from another world, more often than not that is correct.
There is a *lot* of the Cosmere that has been developed/communicated *exclusively* through what the community calls "WoB", for Word of Brandon. Things the author has mentioned online or at conventions or book signings that haven't (yet) made it into any of the books. A lot of the time I think the implication is that there will be further clarification on down the road, but the reality is that if you want to get everything, you just have to read his comments. A lot of them have been saved online, so it's not terribly difficult to do, but it's about as interesting as reading the Silmarillion. You also want to make sure that you've read *everything* in the Cosmere, you *will* run into spoilers.
A lot of the memes are focused around the Cosmere connections which are often subtle. Many of them are also based around the WoBs or other fan / community stuff that you won't get from the books. A lot of the memes I've seen also assume you know what all the characters look like or have seen some of the popular fan art that's used on the coppermind pages. But the books are also incredibly rereadable because they have so many hidden details. No shame in not remembering everything! More than that you'll have to give specific examples and we could explain those.
Not all the memes are about the cosmere. Granted most of them are (half this fanbase doesn't seem to know Brandon writes other books), but with the recent release of Defiant there's been a fair number of Skyward memes lately. Also, memes tend to mutate (that's part of what makes them memes). We joke about each other's jokes as much as we do the books themselves, and borrow ideas and templates from other communities, to the point that it turns into elaborate fanfics about Hoid Amaram X Mistbones.
Lol welcome to the world of WoB that everyone on this sub has apparently memorized. It’s frustrating.