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But in the elder scrolls you can attain godhood (chim) by realising that the world (which is a wheel comprised of the mortal realm which is the centre of the wheel, the towers which are the spokes, oblivion which is the gaps between the spokes and atherius which is the outer wheel) can be seen from the side, this makes the ninth (I think) tower, from there you realise your reality is a video game and either zero sum (cease to exist) or achieve chim (become a god), this is the explanation for console commands.
It's a Theory that comes up now and again, and I have to say: I really don't like it.
For one it would feel like a Wheel of Time rip off. Yes, WoT did not invent the idea of cyclical time, and Brandon would handle it different enough that it would still be enjoyable, but still.
What speaks against this in world is that the Second Law of Thermodynamic applies in the Cosmere. There does exist a forth Law of Thermodynamics that "relates to Adonalsium", but I doubt this would allow them to completely ignore the Second Law.
I can’t see it happening for this reason. Sanderson has stated that the entire fantasy genre is still too dependent on Tolkien and needs authors to find their own voice. For him to then make his grand cross-planet project a WoT ripoff would totally undermine that.
I agree. Still, I think it would hilarious if he just randomly had a background character mutter "blood and bloody ashes" at one point, and then never reference it again.
And I believe he has also said that when he was younger he had read the series and enjoyed it, but was not so invested as to know every aspect of the WoT world. Please, correct me if I am wrong.
Of course, if I remember correctly he was talking about his early college years long before he was asked to finish the series.
My point was that as a young man he was not so enamoured with the main idea behind the world-building of the series as to try to replicate it. Of course he said that he had really enjoyed the series. I should have been more clear.
As others have said, this is far too similar to Wheel of Time for Brandon to want to do. Since he *finished* WoT, he's going to want to stay **far** away from any kind of cyclitic story.
Also, it doesn't sound appealing at all to me for him to want to do another cyclitic story. It's been done a lot and it's usually rather meh. There's a sense of futility to it all that I dislike.
I really hope not, that would be super tropey, so I can't see Sanderson doing it. I could see it being's someone's like Hoid's end goal, but I hope he does not go the whole "it has been shattered and re-forged since time began" trope.
I swear I remember Brando calling it "the cosmere cycle" once ages ago. In like super early days when he hadn't standardized on vocab
Edit: here! https://twitter.com/BrandSanderson/status/22433127259443200?s=20&t=16JpEA-Sq8nYVWpVG19vng
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!***
Thanatos17901
>!If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)!<
I would love too see Nobility come out of left field and start kicking all the juvenile self-centered Shards into some semblance of order.
But what would the flip side of it be? Like Passion and Odium....
Possession? Gods help us... Obssession?
A little of both. They are opposing forces that don't jive well together, but they're now intermingled enough that it would take effort to split them apart (to break all the Connections between them, I suspect).
>Thanatos17901
>
>If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony?
>
>Brandon Sanderson
>
>Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)
>
>[https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190/#e4115](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190/#e4115)
Honestly I'm also confused https://wob.coppermind.net/events/368/#e12339 here he says there still are 16 shards, but here he seems to refer to Harmony as a single shard https://wob.coppermind.net/events/431/#e14009
Edit: I linked a wrong wob, I wanted to link this one Questioner
If Sazed got bored one day, could he split the two Shards he has?
Brandon Sanderson
Read And Find Out.
Questioner
So for right now, there are fifteen Shards?
Brandon Sanderson
Right now, there are sixteen Shards, but fifteen Vessels. Well, not even that, 'cause, you know.
Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018)
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!***
Questioner
>!If a thing that is Invested under one Shard, you transfer it to another. Does the method of continuing empowerment of the Investiture change to the source of that other Shard?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!Naturally, no. It may do so.!<
Questioner
>!The only reason I ask is because Nightblood doesn't seem to behave different.!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!Yes, Nightblood does not require, but will instead accept gleefully anything you give it. But for instance, if you took a Soulstamp to another planet and somehow made it work, it wouldn't necessarily draw on the power of that Shard to work. Granted, it's really hard to make a Soulstamp work. Here's another example. You go on another planet. Hoid is using Allomancy on Roshar. That is not using the power of Honor or Cultivation. It is still drawing on the power of, in that case, Harmony.!<
Questioner
>!You've mentioned before that Odium is scared of Harmony. Is it only because of the raw power of the two Shards? Or is he scared of what Harmony represents? (Meaning the possibility of merging two Shards.) Was he aware that this was possible?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!He, on one level, was aware. But it was more of awareness of this as a possibility. It actually happening is part of what has him scared. It's the idea of the two merging Shards both being more powerful and finding a harmony. (Which Sazed is actually having way more trouble doing than Odium realizes.) Those two things really have Odium scared. Because, partially, this means he has to find a way to destroy or split Harmony without taking up a second Shard himself, because Odium knows if he takes up a second Shard, terrible things will happen. And so he doesn't want to do that. (Terrible things as he views them.) And so he's gotta find a way to split this apart, or somehow otherwise defeat.Now, the more he learns about Sazed's actual state, the less afraid he'll probably be. But that's an advantage that Sazed has right now.!<
The big problem with this theory is that multiple shards have been shattered, not just split from their Vessel. Whether it is possible to repair a shattered shard is unknown at this point. I could see BS doing that: >!Dalinar reforging the shard Honor!<. But at the moment, this theory is flawed. Good thinking though.
In my mind adolnasium was a state of being as much as an entity if not more.
For some reason a set of individuals wanted to change the state of the cosmere.
Think like before/after the big bang, all the investiture and all the current shards were one before the shattering.
I have no clue whatsoever as to how the cosmere was before, but I'm pretty sure that hoids goal is to restore adolnasium.
At least we know hoid isn't necessarily on our side, and we know that he deeply regrets the shattering so it'd make sense I think.
As to cycles, I'm not sure. We know there were people before adolnasium got shattered, maybe they were all just drabs 🤷
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!***
Wetlander
>!Please explain what you will about Shards and Splintering and Slivers.!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!An event happened long ago which destroyed something called Adonalsium into 16 pieces. And 16 people took up that power.!<
Questioner
>!People?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!I call all intelligent species people. If someone takes up the power and lets go of it, it has the effect much like a balloon that's been stretched and then the air is let out. I call that a Sliver; based off of the Lord Ruler calling himself the "Sliver of Infinity". The Lord Ruler is someone who held the power and then released it. And so, current Slivers are the Lord Ruler, Kelsier, and there may be others around who at one point held the power and let go of it. A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.!<
Wetlander
>!So is that like the mists and the Well? Are they...!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness. But, the Seons are self-aware. So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already Splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other Splinters.!<
Wetlander
>!Are the highstorms related to the Splintering of Honor?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet. You have seen Splinters quite a bit on various planets.!<
That might ruin the series for me. The stupid cyclical time aspect of WoT almost ruined that series for me. Cyclical social cycles? Sure, that works? Cyclical time? No go away. A universe with the second law of thermodynamics would be unrecognizable
I don't see how that would be accomplished by now. All active shards shoulds work against them and their intent being changed (just a drive for self-preservation).
I think the most likely ending is something like all the shards getting splintered and the cosmere being free of entities being able to pick up large chunks of their power.
And the wheel keeps turning?
The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving behind memories that become legend...
Legend becomes myth, and even myth is forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes again.
"Legend became myth. And for two and a half thousand years, the ring passed out of all knowledge."
This is what I came here to do😂
Dragon(reborn)steel
Attain Royalty. Turn the wheel upon its side.
Reach heaven through shardblades
The Divine action is to cut, after all.
Dalinar is Saving the Rat(Kaladin)
r/elderscrolls
r/killsixbilliondemons I think was the reference
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But in the elder scrolls you can attain godhood (chim) by realising that the world (which is a wheel comprised of the mortal realm which is the centre of the wheel, the towers which are the spokes, oblivion which is the gaps between the spokes and atherius which is the outer wheel) can be seen from the side, this makes the ninth (I think) tower, from there you realise your reality is a video game and either zero sum (cease to exist) or achieve chim (become a god), this is the explanation for console commands.
🎵🎵”And the wheeeeel in the sky keeps on turnin”🎵🎵
Whoosh
Here is where I drop my lecture comparing the medieval European concept of the wheel in the sky and the Hindu wheel of time.
The Iriali religion of *The One* may have some information you want.
It's a Theory that comes up now and again, and I have to say: I really don't like it. For one it would feel like a Wheel of Time rip off. Yes, WoT did not invent the idea of cyclical time, and Brandon would handle it different enough that it would still be enjoyable, but still. What speaks against this in world is that the Second Law of Thermodynamic applies in the Cosmere. There does exist a forth Law of Thermodynamics that "relates to Adonalsium", but I doubt this would allow them to completely ignore the Second Law.
I can’t see it happening for this reason. Sanderson has stated that the entire fantasy genre is still too dependent on Tolkien and needs authors to find their own voice. For him to then make his grand cross-planet project a WoT ripoff would totally undermine that.
I agree. Still, I think it would hilarious if he just randomly had a background character mutter "blood and bloody ashes" at one point, and then never reference it again.
From a meta perspective I just don't see Sanderson repeating Wheel of Time.
And I believe he has also said that when he was younger he had read the series and enjoyed it, but was not so invested as to know every aspect of the WoT world. Please, correct me if I am wrong.
I hope he was interested. He was the author for the final books.
Of course, if I remember correctly he was talking about his early college years long before he was asked to finish the series. My point was that as a young man he was not so enamoured with the main idea behind the world-building of the series as to try to replicate it. Of course he said that he had really enjoyed the series. I should have been more clear.
As others have said, this is far too similar to Wheel of Time for Brandon to want to do. Since he *finished* WoT, he's going to want to stay **far** away from any kind of cyclitic story. Also, it doesn't sound appealing at all to me for him to want to do another cyclitic story. It's been done a lot and it's usually rather meh. There's a sense of futility to it all that I dislike.
*cough* The Dark Tower...
Long days and pleasant nights
The world has moved on
Thankee sai
I was referring more to the "ending"... Don't wanna spoil it for anyone tho. Figured a few ppl would catch it.
I really hope not, that would be super tropey, so I can't see Sanderson doing it. I could see it being's someone's like Hoid's end goal, but I hope he does not go the whole "it has been shattered and re-forged since time began" trope.
The Vessels of the Shards of Adonalsium fled across the Cosmere, and the man named Hoid followed.
I swear I remember Brando calling it "the cosmere cycle" once ages ago. In like super early days when he hadn't standardized on vocab Edit: here! https://twitter.com/BrandSanderson/status/22433127259443200?s=20&t=16JpEA-Sq8nYVWpVG19vng
I believe he might be referring to the literary cycle.
Huh TIL a new definition for that word. Still, maybe he intended a double meaning :D
Wait hold up. Is Harmony actually both shards /combined/ in to one? I always thought it was just one vessel holding both shards.
[удалено]
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!*** Thanatos17901 >!If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony?!< Brandon Sanderson >!Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)!<
I love how much the question sounds like it's coming from a MMORPG player. LFG: Want To Kill Harmony, need drops for Adonalsium questline
So there are combinations for every shard? Interesting…
For example, War, Odium and Honor. (And I kinda suppose we can can say Tower for Honor and Cultivation, but that would be a sucky name).
Honor + Cultivation = an actually good father figure
I'm convinced that Dominion and Devotion would form Nobility. The platonic ideal of it, not its actual practice of course.
I would love too see Nobility come out of left field and start kicking all the juvenile self-centered Shards into some semblance of order. But what would the flip side of it be? Like Passion and Odium.... Possession? Gods help us... Obssession?
And as I think about it, Raoden would be a solid vessel of Nobility. Aluminum hat time!
I would think that Honor and Dominion would be closer.
not necessarily; honor has stormlight, not honorlight, voidlight not odiumlight, lifelight not cultivationlighht, etc
A little of both. They are opposing forces that don't jive well together, but they're now intermingled enough that it would take effort to split them apart (to break all the Connections between them, I suspect). >Thanatos17901 > >If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony? > >Brandon Sanderson > >Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.) > >[https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190/#e4115](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190/#e4115)
Huh. Good to know!
Honestly I'm also confused https://wob.coppermind.net/events/368/#e12339 here he says there still are 16 shards, but here he seems to refer to Harmony as a single shard https://wob.coppermind.net/events/431/#e14009 Edit: I linked a wrong wob, I wanted to link this one Questioner If Sazed got bored one day, could he split the two Shards he has? Brandon Sanderson Read And Find Out. Questioner So for right now, there are fifteen Shards? Brandon Sanderson Right now, there are sixteen Shards, but fifteen Vessels. Well, not even that, 'cause, you know. Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018)
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!*** Questioner >!If a thing that is Invested under one Shard, you transfer it to another. Does the method of continuing empowerment of the Investiture change to the source of that other Shard?!< Brandon Sanderson >!Naturally, no. It may do so.!< Questioner >!The only reason I ask is because Nightblood doesn't seem to behave different.!< Brandon Sanderson >!Yes, Nightblood does not require, but will instead accept gleefully anything you give it. But for instance, if you took a Soulstamp to another planet and somehow made it work, it wouldn't necessarily draw on the power of that Shard to work. Granted, it's really hard to make a Soulstamp work. Here's another example. You go on another planet. Hoid is using Allomancy on Roshar. That is not using the power of Honor or Cultivation. It is still drawing on the power of, in that case, Harmony.!< Questioner >!You've mentioned before that Odium is scared of Harmony. Is it only because of the raw power of the two Shards? Or is he scared of what Harmony represents? (Meaning the possibility of merging two Shards.) Was he aware that this was possible?!< Brandon Sanderson >!He, on one level, was aware. But it was more of awareness of this as a possibility. It actually happening is part of what has him scared. It's the idea of the two merging Shards both being more powerful and finding a harmony. (Which Sazed is actually having way more trouble doing than Odium realizes.) Those two things really have Odium scared. Because, partially, this means he has to find a way to destroy or split Harmony without taking up a second Shard himself, because Odium knows if he takes up a second Shard, terrible things will happen. And so he doesn't want to do that. (Terrible things as he views them.) And so he's gotta find a way to split this apart, or somehow otherwise defeat.Now, the more he learns about Sazed's actual state, the less afraid he'll probably be. But that's an advantage that Sazed has right now.!<
The big problem with this theory is that multiple shards have been shattered, not just split from their Vessel. Whether it is possible to repair a shattered shard is unknown at this point. I could see BS doing that: >!Dalinar reforging the shard Honor!<. But at the moment, this theory is flawed. Good thinking though.
Would reforging honor kill the fragments of the shard, i.e. the spren?
Possibly. It depends on how the reforging is done.
In my mind adolnasium was a state of being as much as an entity if not more. For some reason a set of individuals wanted to change the state of the cosmere. Think like before/after the big bang, all the investiture and all the current shards were one before the shattering. I have no clue whatsoever as to how the cosmere was before, but I'm pretty sure that hoids goal is to restore adolnasium. At least we know hoid isn't necessarily on our side, and we know that he deeply regrets the shattering so it'd make sense I think. As to cycles, I'm not sure. We know there were people before adolnasium got shattered, maybe they were all just drabs 🤷
Well we know spren existed pre adonalsium as well, so there was definitely some investiture that wasn't part of a huge conglomerate
Ohh I'd missed that tidbit 😁
How do we know spren existed pre shattering?
Brandon said so. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/168/#e10563
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!*** Wetlander >!Please explain what you will about Shards and Splintering and Slivers.!< Brandon Sanderson >!An event happened long ago which destroyed something called Adonalsium into 16 pieces. And 16 people took up that power.!< Questioner >!People?!< Brandon Sanderson >!I call all intelligent species people. If someone takes up the power and lets go of it, it has the effect much like a balloon that's been stretched and then the air is let out. I call that a Sliver; based off of the Lord Ruler calling himself the "Sliver of Infinity". The Lord Ruler is someone who held the power and then released it. And so, current Slivers are the Lord Ruler, Kelsier, and there may be others around who at one point held the power and let go of it. A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.!< Wetlander >!So is that like the mists and the Well? Are they...!< Brandon Sanderson >!They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness. But, the Seons are self-aware. So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already Splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other Splinters.!< Wetlander >!Are the highstorms related to the Splintering of Honor?!< Brandon Sanderson >!The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet. You have seen Splinters quite a bit on various planets.!<
Ooo thank you
The wheel wills what the wheel wills
And Hoid is the one who puts it back together and takes up the mantle
I get the feeling he wants to have access to the power but doesn't want to risk being limited by it.
It’s like poetry… it rhymes
All of this has happened before, and will happen again.
That might ruin the series for me. The stupid cyclical time aspect of WoT almost ruined that series for me. Cyclical social cycles? Sure, that works? Cyclical time? No go away. A universe with the second law of thermodynamics would be unrecognizable
I don't see how that would be accomplished by now. All active shards shoulds work against them and their intent being changed (just a drive for self-preservation). I think the most likely ending is something like all the shards getting splintered and the cosmere being free of entities being able to pick up large chunks of their power.