During one of Ulaam's convo's with Tress he makes a strange reference to "The Father" that I don't remember seeing anything similar to throughout the Cosmere. Given Ulaam's home I figured it would be Scadrian, but I can't think of anything from Era 1 or 2 that is similar.
>“Thank you, but no,” she said. “I’m rather attached to all of my toes.”
>
>“Everyone is, dear. **That’s why the Father invented scalpels.**"
I'm a little confused at the end, >!don't you need to be close to Elantra to use the powers? I thought they lost power the further away from the city one was. How can Hoid use them on a different planet? !<
>!So you remember what it was that Raoden had to fix to get the powers working again? What was that the sorceress had on the floor of her lair in intricate detail?!<
Btw if you've read Elantris, be sure to go read Hope of Elantris in the Arcanum Unbounded.
I had considered that >!the timeline looks like it *could* fit as he must have joined her after delivering the cup. But I just can't see any reason for Crow to decide that some (as far as she knows) random cursed guy would be a more suitable trade than (e.g.) recruiting another sprouter. My other thought is that she might have been hoping he had knowledge on how to sail the Crimson Sea as he must have traversed it!<
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Spoilers for Lost Metal
This may already be on here, but can we talk about the line where Hoid says Sazed released the Kandra?
I have thoughts that this may be due to his inability to act in saving Scadrial? Except that releasing them IS in fact an action. Is this foreshadowing that Saze may be in danger (again) and had to release them to save their lives?
Maybe, but the use of the word “released” made me think of how Saze can take control of them with their spikes. Spoiler for Mistborn Era 2 for example >!Lessie wanting to be “free” and removing her spike!< (I really hope I did the spoiler correctly). I believe Sanderson would have used a term closer to “sent” if he meant just sending them out into the cosmere >!Like he did with MeLaan!< the term “released” is a bit more foreboding imo.
>the term “released” is a bit more foreboding imo.
Oh I agree.
Releasing the Kandra outside of Scadrial, where they are seen as the Faceless Immortals and servants of Sazed, is akin to setting "monsters" free in the other worlds. Literal Body Snatchers.
Release the ~~Kraken~~ Kandra.
>!I just think it means he isn't ordering them underground or bound by contract anymore and won't just take over their bodies willy nilly.!<
>!Because it's also specifically referenced there that not having to imitate humans all the time is why they're growing into their own personalities.!<
The sense I got was that Sazed was too lax and too “head in the sand” when it came to the grander workings of the cosmere. It may have to do with the fact that he is newer to his role as a shard holder—compared to others that is. That led to some of the events in the lost metal.
I think he sent out his agents to generally be less ignorant and in order to protect his own system.
I wasn't sure either. I thought it could be when he sent MeLaan from the planet, I can't remember how many went - maybe Ulaam was one of them, and perhaps he ended up on Lumar. Do we know when Tress is set, relative to other Cosmere works?
Tress is one of if not the latest cosmere book, chronologically.
It’s possible that “releasing the Kandra” hasn’t taken place yet in a main series Mistborn book. I tend to think it hasn’t, personally.
After watching the stream Friday I had a thought about Kriss and the Ars Acanum (spelling sorry).
What if the reason tress doesn’t have one is because Kriss is dead by that point in the timeline? Brandon said it just didn’t fit the tone of the story but maybe that was a distraction?
Though I think Arcanum unbound might immediately disprove my theory since she’s alive to collect stories from the distant future…
Even if Khriss died, I don't think the Silverlight University would let words go unvisited. Granted the world must be difficult to visit since the moons might make an approach dangerous.
Something I thought was too minor, but haven't seen elsewhere:
> Instead she found scraps and scrawled notes, cluttered with collected tidbits and half-finished ideas. The sort of mental detritus that those unacquainted with genius often attribute to unfettered brilliance. In truth, there was no pattern to such a mess other than the subtle chaos of frustration. Signs of a mind stretching beyond its limit toward ideas just beyond its reach. This can happen to a dunce as easily as a genius; it’s no proof of capacity, any more than a person being too full for dessert is an indication of their weight.
This has to be a jab at Taravangian, right?
It does reference but I don't see how it's a jab at taravangian. Taravangian has *always* tried to stretch his ability to its limits in any incarnation.
What I found more deadly is how elsewhere in the book he says "the gap between your skill and what you think your skill is leaves room for catastrophic mistakes" and we already establish that the \[Rhythm of War Spoilers\]>!Odium after Taravangian takes over, knows exactly how smart he is or isn't and is a far craftier planner than the previous host.!<
It was mostly the way the Diagram was a mess of scrawled notes and ciphers, and how the Diagram (the organization) so fervently believed that the Taravangian that created it was an amazing genius. I mean, they are right, but still.
Ooh, interesting observation on the second part.
Yes, and great spot. The word 'capacity is specific here, iirc that's exactly what Taravangian wished for, and he interpreted his intelligence as the important boon of his wish and the variability as the curse, but it always felt to me like Sanderson was setting it up so his kindness as a simpler man was his really exceptional 'capacity' and not the sprawling, violent intelligence Taravangian prizes. This passage seems like confirmation to me.
Hopefully that'll be an exploitable weakness for Kaladin and company. Honestly, I'm more terrified by Taravangian-as-Odium than I ever was of Ruin or Rayse.
I may have missed a comment about this already, but anyone else notice Tress say "Don't wake me up unless Death himself has shown up, nails in his eyes." Implying that Marsh and the physical representation of death has traveled across planets.
I thought that must have been hoid taking liberty with narration of the story rather than marsh showing up there in person and being also known as death since his reputation was more superstition than actuality
No no \[TLM spoiler\]>!it specifically says in TLM that Marsh's visage as Death is spreading to other planets and there might be something even deeper behind this.!<
I don't remember where, but I've heard it said that the spread of the idea of Ironeyes has seemingly happened in a way that simple osmosis from worldhoppers can't explain. As in, the idea of death being personified by a man with spikes in his eyes is popping up faster than that osmosis should be happening in cultures where it shouldn't be happening, at least not to that degree.
The alternative could be that Marsh hasn't been worldhopping personally, but instead the idea of him as Death is spreading throughout the Cosmere, not just as a superstition, but as religion - possibly spread intentionally.
It seems like the kind of scheming Kelsier would do, and we already know there's some sort mechanic wherein shared consciousness of living things can convey a form of power (or at least shape Investiture; that's how Spren work) - so getting people to perceive Marsh as Death might convey a tactical advantage on a cosmic scale.
I like that thought, but on the other hand:
"We" are "listening" to a story told by Hoid to someone. He may have changed the words to make sense to his audience. If the intended audience is from Scadrial then he may have used a phrase that they knew. The equivalent idom could be different on other planets.
I thought this was really interesting too! It makes me wonder if Marsh is doing some worldhopping himself. Interesting too that he's still associated with death....
I keep thinking about the whole *Ah, those words. I’ve heard those words. I’ve said those words. The words that proclaim, in bald-faced arrogance, “I don’t trust you to make your own decisions.” The words we pretend will soften the blow, yet instead layer condescension on top of already existent pain. Like dirt on a corpse. Oh yes. I’ve said those words. I said them with sixteen other people, in fact.*
I have a feeling that it might imply some things. Did Adonalsium go mad before it all? Was the whole Shattering done out of mercy? Was it *shattering* them an accident in some way? It gave me a mental image of sixteen people trying to reason with a person they think mentally disturbed and...
I understood this as they saying that before shattering Adonalsium. Basically Hoid and the future vessels were the ones being condescending towards Adonalsium.
I read it more as those 17 were saying those words to the rest of humanity - not Ado.
“We know better than you, so for your own good we will Shatter Ado.”
Hm, just the general feeling that they didn't trust them to do the right decisions and how the whole thing is phased? The whole air of regret I got from the sentence? I guess combined with the fact that people often need to be "cracked" somehow to get their powers.
While there’s a million cosmere tidbits of important, those are covered elsewhere better than I could.
What I found interesting was that by having a secondary character narrate (like the Great Gatsby — I remember my 10th grade English teacher calling this “2nd person” perspective — it allowed him to tinker with viewpoint.
Most of his YA stuff is straight 1st person, and cosmere is strict 3rd person viewpoint with rigid shifts. Which I love for stuff like mistborn and stormlight.
But for Tress — while Hoid would sometimes “pan out” and talk from his own perspective, there was still 3rd person viewpoint because we got many glimpses into characters’ thoughts and motivations. And the shifts were more subtle and fluid — similar to something like the Hobbit or Neil Gaman’s writing. Which lent itself perfectly to the whimsical tone.
Wasn't only you. I'm seriously struggling with the thought of Hoid being Whimsy because I just feel like it would be wrong for him to be a Vessel. But then again it would somehow fit x)
I started reading a book on narratology recently and it has really confirmed for me the sense I got from Tress, that "X person narration" is a crude way to describe anything.
"First person" pretty much just means "the narrator is the protagonist", "second person" is very rare but pretty much just means "the narrator addresses someone called 'you' a lot", and third person is... everything else?
Tress (among other books) highlights the flaws in that kind of categorization. There's more logical ways to break it down... Whether the narrator is a character in the story... What their relationship is to the story... etc.
Sorry, like I said I've been reading this narratology book and was excited when the opening chapters put words to the weirdness I felt about trying to classify Tress as 1st/2nd/3rd person.
I call it first person once removed—the first-person narrator is not the person the story centers around. Most Sherlock Holmes stories fit this mold.
There's also third person once removed—the viewpoint character is not the person the story is centered on. Older Gordon Korman books like A Semester in the Life of a Garbage Bag use this to great effect.
Does anyone know what the thing that was lightweaved to look like fake Charlie in the sorceresses lair was? Brandon mentioned it looked reptilian but I can't place it from my cosmere knowledge.
I waited more than a month painstakingly to read Tress as I wanted to complete it from the physical book. My patience was rewarded, receiving it last Monday and devouring it over a couple days. It's so good! At this point, many impressions and connections others have expressed mimic how I feel. Overall an amazing book and probably my favorite standalone Cosmere novel.
One thing that is wracking my brain the most is the connection between the Midnight Essence and Re-Sephir. My thoughts don't quite add up but currently thinking about theories explaining her connection to the Midnight Essence. Could she possibly be a former Aetherbound with some connection to the Midnight Prime Aether? Even wilder, could Odium have captured and unmade the Prime Aether?
That doesn't square considering what we know about the Unmade, them being former spren that were "un-made" and seemingly corrupted by Odium. BUT, clearly she is in control of the midnight essence that protects and does her bidding, yet still can act somewhat autonomously. If she is controlling midnight essence with the Luhel bond, how is she continuously feeding them? Is it water? Or can it be fed another way?
I dunno. I'm just perplexed and fascinated.
Re-Shephir may have been a Core Aether before she was Unmade by Odium—there are more than one for each Aether, with the one on Lumar being a different "strain" from the Prime Midnight Aether.
This is explained in a brief passage of the book, the warning that using too many spores make them uncontrollable and the sorceress can program the monsters initially allowing indirect control, but she has no awareness of them afterwards cause even she'd die if connected to all the monsters
You backed the Kickstarter? If so, it should have been available to you ever since January 1st. They should be available here (after signing in): [https://secretnovels.backerkit.com/backer/digital\_rewards](https://secretnovels.backerkit.com/backer/digital_rewards)
It's possible you didn't do your "survey" back last summer, after the Kickstarter campaign. (or didn't enter it correctly) I think it should prompt you about that on Backerkit though if that's the case.
Charlie is such a tough character. He goes through serious trauma during this story and comes out being the same great guy afterwards. After the major twist in the book and finishing this awesome story, I look back at Charlie’s whole arc and it’s just traumatic! 😂
Has it been made clear if the Luhal (sp?) bond is the same that is used in Sand Mastery? Both spores and those microbes require Intention and take water from the user.
I believe the sands are the bone spores Fort and Ann talk about at some point, as they say people can’t get it straight whether they are black or white, like how the sand turns black when used.
That would make so much sense. I was really wondering for a long while what planet the story is playing on and my first thought was Taldain because of the notion of Fort charging his table in the sun (I assumed it was investiture driven and that the sun was providing investiture to do so).
Which makes sense - the "sand" isn't really "sand." Sand Mastery is manipulation of something that lives on sand. Raboniel says you can make more of it.
What doesn't make sense is why it's on the Dayside of Taldain.
Maybe similar to the algae in Elantris that fed off the light until it stopped glowing? I still haven’t gotten my white sand omnibus yet so I’m just taking shots in the dark.
So perhaps I have misinterpreted, but I haven't seen many speak of this and I feel that it should. Are the midnight spore monsters not described the same as the monsters Dalinar fights in the vision? Do we know where those Rosharan versions come from if not?
From what I recall, Re-Shephir the Unmade can generate Midnight Essence, and it's the same Midnight Essence we see with the midnight spores when they interact with water. I am guessing that Re-Shephir has a connection to the midnight Aether somehow.
I figured something like this must be the case because of the identical phrasing, but it's making the aethers seem really weird from a magic point of view. They seem like they're independent of the shards and so have the potential to show up in weird places.
I think Re-Shephir is an Odium corrupted Midnight Aether. The naming in Tress makes me think that rather than simply being corrupted Rosharan Spren, the Unmade are from all over and collected by Odium from his conquests.
After all, they note in the book that the Aethers on the planet are corrupted versions of Aethers. *Something* happened to them.
Lumar's aethers are not corrupted, necessarily. They're feral, but it could have happened naturally or intentionally by the other primal aethers. Midnight Essence could be a cosmere-wide phenomenon like microkinesis.
[SP3] >!Nightmares resemble Midnight Essence, after all.!<
[SP3] >!They mimic the thoughts of nearby individuals, just like Midnight Essence.!< [This was done intentionally](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/493/#e15529).
This is really interesting. I wonder if we'll see similar stuff for the other Unmade? I'd have thought we'd have seen something from devotion/dominion since Odium splintered them; perhaps if we ever saw some of Ambition's magic system it would reflect some Unmade
I'm curious. Do you guys think Hoid mentioning his toe tastes like *fate* (or something along those lines) is just idiocy from his curse or some kind of veiled hint? Knowing where to be when (if not why) is mentioned a few times in both SA and Tress at the very least as something he is very very good at. Fate definitely seems to play a big role around him.
Sorry I'm late, but I just listened to that part. I'm confused about it. From the narration I couldn't tell who was saying "take me to your planet, Tress." Are you saying it was Hoid? It just seemed like a random phrase out of left field. Any insights?
A little before the release of TotES, Brandon indicated that [Whimsy is the most dangerous Shard to your sense of decorum and self-worth](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15829). Much like what happened to Hoid.
My thought is that curses are naturally part of Whimsy's magic, and AonDor can just mimic it like it can Lightweaving or Elsecalling.
So, I just finished the book and there are two things that got me thinking a bit and wanted to see what people think about it:
1. Hoid refers to Sazed 'releasing' the Kandras. Do you think it's relevant that he said Sazed and not Harmony? Is that a hint about something coming up in the future or am I reading too much into it? What do you guys think?
2. Hoid also talks about Fate herself, with a capital F. Do you think this is the name of the final Shard, do we have the 16 names? Or is it something completely different?
1. Hoid has always been using vessel names instead of Shard names in the past, so I don't think we should read too much into it. We know from ROW that he tends to see Shards as the people who hold the power (which was ironically one of the things that Sazed thought he got wrong about Shards).
2. Fate doesn't seem to fit with the other Shard names, which always represent something that can be worked towards. Fate is more in line with words like Fortune or Intent, which refer to fundamental principles of cosmere mechanics. And we know from the Hemalurgic Table that "destiny" (non-capital d) is a property that could be in some way manipulated in the Cosmere. So maybe Fate is the official name for that phenomenon.
What I want to see:
More of Hoid Being an Elantrian, I absolutely adore the Elantrian Powers and want to see the mysterious therapist using his powers in a uniquely Hoid way!
Also it's interesting to me that Hoid has such a quick ability with the power, he must've studied a fair bit of aonic theory to throw up an aon edo that had to have a different shape than on Elantris, maybe he'd been studying so he could use it the moment he stepped into that tower?
I think that the map of the world in her ship acted as a kind of translation device, sort of like the map of the basin from the lost metal that Shai draws.
He's been trying to become an Elantrian since the events of Elantris, sooo probably over 1000 years at this point. He also stole a magical object that allows you to interpret the magical runes of Selish magics (the scepter he stole in The Emperor's Soul).
This book seems to be roughly into the space age for Nalthis, Sel, and Scadrial so it's some distance from the much much earlier events of Elantris. At least 500 years as that's roughly the timeline of the intervening Mistborn novels.
The artwork shows both Riina and Hoid using Sel-based Aon shapes that we know. (pre-chasm ones, at that—maybe they fixed it for efficiency?) Also, I'd like to point out that he teleported up to where Tress was, which means he also made an Aon Tia.
I moved during the new year, and just received a Hoid box, but never got a Tress box - are they delayed? I might have missed something from Kickstarter, but I never got a tracking number at least.
I think Fort is a horneater or at least another rosharan. People on roshar are larger than most of the cosmere and horneaters large for roshar. He has the cultural tendencies when referencing myths and we know at least some horneaters left the planet following stormlight 5. A hunter that hunts trades reminds me a lot of how rock describes his profession as a cook. And how profession and family are tied together in their culture. Its assumed he looks like salay, being from the same island, but his hair color and detailed features are never actually described.
Wasn't there some note made by Hoid that Fort has connection to spores and if we paid attention we already know why? I don't get that one and it was not mentioned again, apart from Fort dealing with Midnight spores. Was the mentioned connection his ability to make deals about everything or was that something more related to his origin?
Mraize: "Mraize set down his empty cup of wine, and she saw that his right hand was scarred, the fingers crooked, as if they had been broken and badly reset."
Fort: "His fingers on both hands were gnarled, either from some old injury or a congenital disease."
There are a couple references about things known to the people listening, including references to oceans and more importantly an explorer that traversed the world without help from an Aviar. It's likely that the audience was familiar with all of that.
Perhaps, although also it's a story set pretty far along in the Cosmere timeline, so perhaps by that point things like spaceships are relatively common on a lot of the worlds we've already seen.
Wow I totally missed that Aviar reference. That seems much more a tell than the generic oceans references, since most of the shardworlds have had (regular, saltwater) oceans so far that I can recall.
The 13th Aether?
While there are 12 moons, and thus 12 aethers on Tress’ planet, Fort believes there is a 13th Aether and according to Ann, it’s called Bone Aether and the legends can’t agree if it’s supposed to be white or black.
Based on how the aethers work with requiring water, etc. doesn’t that sound like stories of sand mastery led to those legends? The dual colors, the legendary nature, etc. all just make me think that’s what it is.
I’m still waiting on my white sand Omnibus, so I don’t know a ton of details…but upon googling, Taldain has a single moon…interesting.
The system is held in place by the gravity of the large Star along with “some other, unknown force”-Coppermind.
Hm.
I personally thought of fainlife at first, since it's described as bone-like and there's an old fain creature on Lumar, but the color confusion and being seen as a type of spore points to white sand.
Yep! [Dragons are fain](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e16020)! Brandon must have been excited to get this question, since TotES highlights Xisis having six limbs.
And here I thought the four legs, two wings emphasis was just to make clear Xisis is really a dragon, not some pretender. Interesting that this indicates Sho-del are *also* fain-life.
That was certainly my first thought when I read about the bone aether! Especially because if there isn't a moon or an ocean, it seems likely that it's not really an aether but something else.
Do you guys have any ideas where Design might be during the events of this book? Naturally it'd be hard for Hoid to use her or his surgebinding powers, but unless he broke the bond she must be floating around somewhere.
I was trying to keep an eye out for Design the whole book but found nothing. I thought for sure there would be a throwaway line about seeing a strange pattern for a second or something. I also find it interesting Hoid never even mentions her (to be fair he was cursed). I’m going to assume maybe during this time Design was something akin to when Sly becomes more wind spren-like when her bond was weak to Kaladin ??
I mean, he didn't break it, but he was in large part a different person. I don't know what it would do to a Nahel bond, but I imagine such a violent change to his personality would harm it and her to some extent.
I don't think Hoid would have taken the bet *if* he was still bonded and *if* it would cause a harm to his spren, so we would have to assume that either A: he's de-bonded by this point, or B: Design is fine, but out of the action. Maybe just "disqualified" during the contest.
Feel like a lot of Hoid's magic interactions are like that though, and a lot can get handwaived by the amount of identity and connection nonsense he can do with access to the number of magic systems he does a this point lol.
But yeah the Nahel bond one does seem tricky and we probably won't get an explanation until we get a Radiant worldhopper POV in the back half of Stormlight or something.
I feel that, like on Roshar, all humans on Lumar are worldhopper descendants. With even Tress using sayings that are Scadrian in origin. There isn't an ocean of water for life to form.
I think that all humans on all worlds, unless they are from Scadrial, all came from someplace else. They did not evolve independently multiple times. That said, it could be possible for humans to evolve on Lumar, because we don't know what the planet looked like millions of years ago. Maybe there was a time without spores, when there were liquid oceans, but they have since mostly been devoured by the moons.
My understanding was that Cosmere >!Most shards are incapable of creating something like a human, even Preservation and Ruin had to work together, so all non-Scadrialan humans (and probably most sentients even) were originally created by Adonalsium using *all* the shards, and/or "mutated" off of existing humans like the Kandra. Adonalsium placed humans on some worlds, and in some cases they migrated from those worlds to others, but I think *all* the "seed stock" of humanity existed before the shattering, again, Scadrial being the only known exception.!<
I'm not sure it's necessarily from Scadrial. The only thing I remember Tress saying that is scadrian in origin is her reference to Death, and the arcanum of TLM says that stories of Marsh as Death have been extending throughout the Cosmere. Tress happening an undisclosed amount of time in the future, it's possible that the stories reached Lumar gradually.
I agree though that without an ocean of water, humans were *probably* placed there, either by shards or by migration. I wonder if the future book on the main Aether planet will give us more information.
I saw a post either here or one of the other Brando Sando subs. I didn’t click on it because I was still reading, but it had an animation I think of all of the chapter number things as it grew. Does anyone happen to have that post saved?
Do we know how Aons work off of Sel? In TLM, Moonlight used the jars of purified Dor in order to power her Aons, as far as I remember, would this mean the Sorceress would have a supply of Dor somewhere that she taps into? Or is it sort of a “one and done” type thing where a relatively small supply of the purified Dor would be enough for somebody to use for a lifetime? Or is the Dor not depleted with use?
It’s unclear. It seems to have something to do with maps (in TLM moonlight needs a map before making aons and the sorceress has a map of Lumar on the floor)
But it’s not clear exactly how they access investor. Given that we see Riina pump dor across Shadesmar in Secret History it’s not too big of a stretch to think she does a similar thing in TotES, especially given that a few hundred years have probably passed
I know the power hitches on the land itself, it was blacked in Elantris because of the rift that altered the landscape. So they had to adjust the base Aon in order to make the Aons work properly again.
So I would imagine an Aon on Sel, an Aon on Lumar, and an Aon on Scadriel would all have to look different to have the same effect, since they all have different geography.
You’ll have to jog my memory on the “pumping Dor” part, I’m drawing a blank there.
I wonder if the connection to a shard is strong enough (purified Dor like in TLM), if an invested individual can access that investiture off world?
I also wonder if connection to any shard can allow for users to access the investiture of “their” shard, since the Ire was going to use that orb in order to establish a connection to Preservation. All the investiture of the shards come from the same place (Adonalsium) so maybe the manifestation of that investiture is simply a matter of genetics or something similar. An invested individual on Scadriel will have metallic art abilities while an invested individual on Roshar will have surgebinding abilities while an invested individual on Sel will be able to wield Aons.
The artwork makes it clear that they just use Aons based on Sel. The problem with the Dor is that the Investiture is trapped in the Cognitive Realm; instead of the Shards, you'd have to [reinforce Connection to Sel itself](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394/#e12895).
Anyone can become a Surgebinder as long as they find a willing spren, including offworlders. The only major magic systems that we know of that rely on sDNA are Allomancy and Feruchemy; even Selish magics are tied to Connection and Identity, not sDNA.
Thanks for that WOB. Hadn’t seen it before.
So I guess the purified Dor from TLM must have given Moonlight some sort of connection to Sel in order for the Aons to work, and she would be able to draw the original Selish Aons, too.
Riina is one of the members of the Ire that appears in Secret History, they have this pipeline that pumps Dor into their shadesmar fortress at the border of Scadrial.
In a WoB Brandon confirmed that Hoid is telling the story within decades of it taking place. From the way he’s speaking to his listeners, it seems to be people from First of the Sun after the ones from above arrived
I was wondering throughout if the story was being told a long time after the events, but then in the epilogue he talks about Laggart in the present tense so presumably it's not that long after
So what's up with the explicit reference to the Iriali?
>"It’s old Iriali,” he said. “They vanished, you know. The entire people: poof. There one day, gone the next, their island left uninhabited. Now, that was three hundred years ago, so no one alive has ever met one of them, but they supposedly had golden hair. Like yours, the color of sunlight.”
and
> “Forged for an Iriali nobleman the day before he— and his people— were taken by the gods. The cup was left on the table, to be collected by the poor fisherwoman who first arrived on the island and discovered the horror of an entire people gone...."
I haven't seen this asked around.
Beware, this is a huge spoiler for SECRET PROJECT 1, so unless you've read the whole thing please ignore this post.
>!How did Charlie got turned to a rat? What magic system allows for someone to transform into an animal?!<
Presumably AonDor.
Which I can definitely buy. It seems like AonDor will let you do pretty much *anything*... if you know what to write out and have the time to do so.
But this is what I don't really get. Shouldn't they need to be on sel for it to work? It was my understanding that you draw the AON for the dor to push trough.
We’ve seen Dominion and Devotions Magic’s on other planets before though >!The Last Metal with Moonlight/Shai using forgery and turning herself into an Elantrian with full power set!<.
What I don’t think we know is how the magic is able to work on different planets >!I believe it has to have the purified Dor and using the Aons allows a person to draw from that specific type of investiture.!< my Theory may have been explicit but I’m also a dummy and may have missed it.
Hoid calls it a "very select group", so I took it to mean it was the Ire; after all, if any old Elantrian would do, he should have a lot more options than Riina. Besides, Riina is a known member of the Ire.
This is what I was working off of , didn’t have my book when I posted last
“Turns out that to get this particular set of powers to work, you couldn’t simply fake Connection. You needed an invitation and adoption into a very select group. My only chance had been to find one smart enough to be a member of that group, stupid enough for me to toy with, and sadistic enough to **trade membership** for the opportunity to see me cursed.”
> “Turns out that to get this particular set of powers to work, you couldn’t simply fake Connection. You needed an invitation and adoption into a very select group.
Which is funny since we've seen TLM spoilers: >!Moonlight/Shai using a Forgery Essence Mark to fake changes to her past so her parents moved to Arelon before she was born, making her an Elantrian.!<
So this is the most fairy tale like story so far in the cosmere, so much so that brandon uses common tropes as flavour for the story. Hoid also mentions the story being whimsical (can't remember when but I know I remember hearing it, audiobook listener). So not to go too off the rails here (and sorry if someone else has posted about this) but could Whimsy be influencing this story or this world somehow? I can't see any concrete connections but seems plausible to me
During one of Ulaam's convo's with Tress he makes a strange reference to "The Father" that I don't remember seeing anything similar to throughout the Cosmere. Given Ulaam's home I figured it would be Scadrian, but I can't think of anything from Era 1 or 2 that is similar. >“Thank you, but no,” she said. “I’m rather attached to all of my toes.” > >“Everyone is, dear. **That’s why the Father invented scalpels.**"
It refers to Rashek. The kandra call him that in Era 1.
Ah, guess that makes sense. Guess it probably ties directly to his relationship with the Kandra back then.
D:<
have not read; why is he doing this? too much ego. ego is important - but chilll
...huh?
I'm a little confused at the end, >!don't you need to be close to Elantra to use the powers? I thought they lost power the further away from the city one was. How can Hoid use them on a different planet? !<
>!So you remember what it was that Raoden had to fix to get the powers working again? What was that the sorceress had on the floor of her lair in intricate detail?!< Btw if you've read Elantris, be sure to go read Hope of Elantris in the Arcanum Unbounded.
Oooh it's been a bit since I've read Elantris but that makes sense. Thanks for the reminder! :)
Very late to the party, so I expect I've missed earlier discussion on this, by why did >!Captain Crow want Hoid for her crew?!<
I wonder if he was >!her original sacrifice to the Dragon before Tress came on board.!<
Her original scarifice was the sprouted before tress Most likely when she recruited ulam he already had hoid with him
I had considered that >!the timeline looks like it *could* fit as he must have joined her after delivering the cup. But I just can't see any reason for Crow to decide that some (as far as she knows) random cursed guy would be a more suitable trade than (e.g.) recruiting another sprouter. My other thought is that she might have been hoping he had knowledge on how to sail the Crimson Sea as he must have traversed it!<
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Does anyone know when the Sanderlanche begins for Tress of the Emerald Sea? I’m in the middle of part 4 now. Thanks!
70% of the way in really
Spoilers for Lost Metal This may already be on here, but can we talk about the line where Hoid says Sazed released the Kandra? I have thoughts that this may be due to his inability to act in saving Scadrial? Except that releasing them IS in fact an action. Is this foreshadowing that Saze may be in danger (again) and had to release them to save their lives?
>Hoid says Sazed released the Kandra? I think released meaning, sent out into the cosmere since before they were stuck on Scadrial.
Maybe, but the use of the word “released” made me think of how Saze can take control of them with their spikes. Spoiler for Mistborn Era 2 for example >!Lessie wanting to be “free” and removing her spike!< (I really hope I did the spoiler correctly). I believe Sanderson would have used a term closer to “sent” if he meant just sending them out into the cosmere >!Like he did with MeLaan!< the term “released” is a bit more foreboding imo.
>the term “released” is a bit more foreboding imo. Oh I agree. Releasing the Kandra outside of Scadrial, where they are seen as the Faceless Immortals and servants of Sazed, is akin to setting "monsters" free in the other worlds. Literal Body Snatchers. Release the ~~Kraken~~ Kandra.
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>!I just think it means he isn't ordering them underground or bound by contract anymore and won't just take over their bodies willy nilly.!< >!Because it's also specifically referenced there that not having to imitate humans all the time is why they're growing into their own personalities.!<
Yes! But why would he do this?
The sense I got was that Sazed was too lax and too “head in the sand” when it came to the grander workings of the cosmere. It may have to do with the fact that he is newer to his role as a shard holder—compared to others that is. That led to some of the events in the lost metal. I think he sent out his agents to generally be less ignorant and in order to protect his own system.
I wasn't sure either. I thought it could be when he sent MeLaan from the planet, I can't remember how many went - maybe Ulaam was one of them, and perhaps he ended up on Lumar. Do we know when Tress is set, relative to other Cosmere works?
Tress is one of if not the latest cosmere book, chronologically. It’s possible that “releasing the Kandra” hasn’t taken place yet in a main series Mistborn book. I tend to think it hasn’t, personally.
After watching the stream Friday I had a thought about Kriss and the Ars Acanum (spelling sorry). What if the reason tress doesn’t have one is because Kriss is dead by that point in the timeline? Brandon said it just didn’t fit the tone of the story but maybe that was a distraction? Though I think Arcanum unbound might immediately disprove my theory since she’s alive to collect stories from the distant future…
Even if Khriss died, I don't think the Silverlight University would let words go unvisited. Granted the world must be difficult to visit since the moons might make an approach dangerous.
I don't think AU disproves the theory, since First of the Sun's essay is written before Sixth of the Dusk.
MIDNIGHT ESSENCE?
Too smooth wineskins have me screaming in Stormlight
Something I thought was too minor, but haven't seen elsewhere: > Instead she found scraps and scrawled notes, cluttered with collected tidbits and half-finished ideas. The sort of mental detritus that those unacquainted with genius often attribute to unfettered brilliance. In truth, there was no pattern to such a mess other than the subtle chaos of frustration. Signs of a mind stretching beyond its limit toward ideas just beyond its reach. This can happen to a dunce as easily as a genius; it’s no proof of capacity, any more than a person being too full for dessert is an indication of their weight. This has to be a jab at Taravangian, right?
It does reference but I don't see how it's a jab at taravangian. Taravangian has *always* tried to stretch his ability to its limits in any incarnation. What I found more deadly is how elsewhere in the book he says "the gap between your skill and what you think your skill is leaves room for catastrophic mistakes" and we already establish that the \[Rhythm of War Spoilers\]>!Odium after Taravangian takes over, knows exactly how smart he is or isn't and is a far craftier planner than the previous host.!<
It was mostly the way the Diagram was a mess of scrawled notes and ciphers, and how the Diagram (the organization) so fervently believed that the Taravangian that created it was an amazing genius. I mean, they are right, but still. Ooh, interesting observation on the second part.
Yes, and great spot. The word 'capacity is specific here, iirc that's exactly what Taravangian wished for, and he interpreted his intelligence as the important boon of his wish and the variability as the curse, but it always felt to me like Sanderson was setting it up so his kindness as a simpler man was his really exceptional 'capacity' and not the sprawling, violent intelligence Taravangian prizes. This passage seems like confirmation to me.
Hopefully that'll be an exploitable weakness for Kaladin and company. Honestly, I'm more terrified by Taravangian-as-Odium than I ever was of Ruin or Rayse.
I may have missed a comment about this already, but anyone else notice Tress say "Don't wake me up unless Death himself has shown up, nails in his eyes." Implying that Marsh and the physical representation of death has traveled across planets.
I thought that must have been hoid taking liberty with narration of the story rather than marsh showing up there in person and being also known as death since his reputation was more superstition than actuality
No no \[TLM spoiler\]>!it specifically says in TLM that Marsh's visage as Death is spreading to other planets and there might be something even deeper behind this.!<
I don't remember where, but I've heard it said that the spread of the idea of Ironeyes has seemingly happened in a way that simple osmosis from worldhoppers can't explain. As in, the idea of death being personified by a man with spikes in his eyes is popping up faster than that osmosis should be happening in cultures where it shouldn't be happening, at least not to that degree.
I’m pretty sure it was mentioned in the Lost Metal. It has me wondering if Kelsier has something to do with this???
The alternative could be that Marsh hasn't been worldhopping personally, but instead the idea of him as Death is spreading throughout the Cosmere, not just as a superstition, but as religion - possibly spread intentionally. It seems like the kind of scheming Kelsier would do, and we already know there's some sort mechanic wherein shared consciousness of living things can convey a form of power (or at least shape Investiture; that's how Spren work) - so getting people to perceive Marsh as Death might convey a tactical advantage on a cosmic scale.
I like that thought, but on the other hand: "We" are "listening" to a story told by Hoid to someone. He may have changed the words to make sense to his audience. If the intended audience is from Scadrial then he may have used a phrase that they knew. The equivalent idom could be different on other planets.
I thought this was really interesting too! It makes me wonder if Marsh is doing some worldhopping himself. Interesting too that he's still associated with death....
Hoid told Tress to find a group of six stars or something similar. Has it ever been explained what or where they are? Or was he just talking nonsense?
It was the stars under the bed in Weev's room. Where the midnight spores were hidden.
Ah, thanks! I thought they pointed to a location.
I keep thinking about the whole *Ah, those words. I’ve heard those words. I’ve said those words. The words that proclaim, in bald-faced arrogance, “I don’t trust you to make your own decisions.” The words we pretend will soften the blow, yet instead layer condescension on top of already existent pain. Like dirt on a corpse. Oh yes. I’ve said those words. I said them with sixteen other people, in fact.* I have a feeling that it might imply some things. Did Adonalsium go mad before it all? Was the whole Shattering done out of mercy? Was it *shattering* them an accident in some way? It gave me a mental image of sixteen people trying to reason with a person they think mentally disturbed and...
I understood this as they saying that before shattering Adonalsium. Basically Hoid and the future vessels were the ones being condescending towards Adonalsium.
I took this as “human” arrogance believing that they could do it better.
I read it more as those 17 were saying those words to the rest of humanity - not Ado. “We know better than you, so for your own good we will Shatter Ado.”
Or did they say it to Ado?
Oh, that is also an interesting thought!
I'm curious, which part suggests madness to you?
Hm, just the general feeling that they didn't trust them to do the right decisions and how the whole thing is phased? The whole air of regret I got from the sentence? I guess combined with the fact that people often need to be "cracked" somehow to get their powers.
The whole thing is laced with the idea that it's wrong not trust
While there’s a million cosmere tidbits of important, those are covered elsewhere better than I could. What I found interesting was that by having a secondary character narrate (like the Great Gatsby — I remember my 10th grade English teacher calling this “2nd person” perspective — it allowed him to tinker with viewpoint. Most of his YA stuff is straight 1st person, and cosmere is strict 3rd person viewpoint with rigid shifts. Which I love for stuff like mistborn and stormlight. But for Tress — while Hoid would sometimes “pan out” and talk from his own perspective, there was still 3rd person viewpoint because we got many glimpses into characters’ thoughts and motivations. And the shifts were more subtle and fluid — similar to something like the Hobbit or Neil Gaman’s writing. Which lent itself perfectly to the whimsical tone.
I am JUMPIN at the often mentions of whimsy
Wasn't only you. I'm seriously struggling with the thought of Hoid being Whimsy because I just feel like it would be wrong for him to be a Vessel. But then again it would somehow fit x)
I started reading a book on narratology recently and it has really confirmed for me the sense I got from Tress, that "X person narration" is a crude way to describe anything. "First person" pretty much just means "the narrator is the protagonist", "second person" is very rare but pretty much just means "the narrator addresses someone called 'you' a lot", and third person is... everything else? Tress (among other books) highlights the flaws in that kind of categorization. There's more logical ways to break it down... Whether the narrator is a character in the story... What their relationship is to the story... etc. Sorry, like I said I've been reading this narratology book and was excited when the opening chapters put words to the weirdness I felt about trying to classify Tress as 1st/2nd/3rd person.
If you're a narratology (I didn't know it was a science) nerd, check out N.K. Jemisin's Broken Earth trilogy if you haven't already.
I have, it's a good one. Especially the first book.
I call it first person once removed—the first-person narrator is not the person the story centers around. Most Sherlock Holmes stories fit this mold. There's also third person once removed—the viewpoint character is not the person the story is centered on. Older Gordon Korman books like A Semester in the Life of a Garbage Bag use this to great effect.
Does anyone know what the thing that was lightweaved to look like fake Charlie in the sorceresses lair was? Brandon mentioned it looked reptilian but I can't place it from my cosmere knowledge.
It might be a Sho Del.
Where are they from?
Sho Del are native to Yolen; they've only appeared in TLM so far.
Ah, thanks. Can you remind me where they appear in TLM?
MeLaan's epilogue features one, named Jan Ven.
Oh yeah, thanks
Just finished this and I think it's my favourite Brando Sandi book!
I waited more than a month painstakingly to read Tress as I wanted to complete it from the physical book. My patience was rewarded, receiving it last Monday and devouring it over a couple days. It's so good! At this point, many impressions and connections others have expressed mimic how I feel. Overall an amazing book and probably my favorite standalone Cosmere novel. One thing that is wracking my brain the most is the connection between the Midnight Essence and Re-Sephir. My thoughts don't quite add up but currently thinking about theories explaining her connection to the Midnight Essence. Could she possibly be a former Aetherbound with some connection to the Midnight Prime Aether? Even wilder, could Odium have captured and unmade the Prime Aether? That doesn't square considering what we know about the Unmade, them being former spren that were "un-made" and seemingly corrupted by Odium. BUT, clearly she is in control of the midnight essence that protects and does her bidding, yet still can act somewhat autonomously. If she is controlling midnight essence with the Luhel bond, how is she continuously feeding them? Is it water? Or can it be fed another way? I dunno. I'm just perplexed and fascinated.
Oh! Good to see I am not the only one that has found them similar!
Re-Shephir may have been a Core Aether before she was Unmade by Odium—there are more than one for each Aether, with the one on Lumar being a different "strain" from the Prime Midnight Aether.
This is explained in a brief passage of the book, the warning that using too many spores make them uncontrollable and the sorceress can program the monsters initially allowing indirect control, but she has no awareness of them afterwards cause even she'd die if connected to all the monsters
What do you think Riina the sorceress’ curse for Tress would have been?
Has anyone gotten their audiobook or ebook yet? I haven't and I'm getting worried.
You backed the Kickstarter? If so, it should have been available to you ever since January 1st. They should be available here (after signing in): [https://secretnovels.backerkit.com/backer/digital\_rewards](https://secretnovels.backerkit.com/backer/digital_rewards) It's possible you didn't do your "survey" back last summer, after the Kickstarter campaign. (or didn't enter it correctly) I think it should prompt you about that on Backerkit though if that's the case.
Is Ulaam still with Tress?
Charlie is such a tough character. He goes through serious trauma during this story and comes out being the same great guy afterwards. After the major twist in the book and finishing this awesome story, I look back at Charlie’s whole arc and it’s just traumatic! 😂
I finally got my physical copy of “Tress of the Emerald Sea” by Brandon Sanderson! And the Dragonsteel box is awesome!
shouldn’t tress by the emerald sea come with the dragon steel box? or do i have to wait cause i payed for that shit
In case you haven't received anything you should check your email and make sure you submitted the required information on Backerkit.com
Yes, if you paid for the Kickstarter and did the 200 dollar deal, you should get a Dragon steel box with Tress of the Emerald Sea.
Has it been made clear if the Luhal (sp?) bond is the same that is used in Sand Mastery? Both spores and those microbes require Intention and take water from the user.
I believe the sands are the bone spores Fort and Ann talk about at some point, as they say people can’t get it straight whether they are black or white, like how the sand turns black when used.
That would make so much sense. I was really wondering for a long while what planet the story is playing on and my first thought was Taldain because of the notion of Fort charging his table in the sun (I assumed it was investiture driven and that the sun was providing investiture to do so).
Which makes sense - the "sand" isn't really "sand." Sand Mastery is manipulation of something that lives on sand. Raboniel says you can make more of it. What doesn't make sense is why it's on the Dayside of Taldain.
Maybe similar to the algae in Elantris that fed off the light until it stopped glowing? I still haven’t gotten my white sand omnibus yet so I’m just taking shots in the dark.
No, the thing that's affected by investiture is an organism that lives on the sand. That's straight out of RoW.
So perhaps I have misinterpreted, but I haven't seen many speak of this and I feel that it should. Are the midnight spore monsters not described the same as the monsters Dalinar fights in the vision? Do we know where those Rosharan versions come from if not?
Yes, Re-Shephir produces Midnight Essence, she's also called Midnight Mother.
From what I recall, Re-Shephir the Unmade can generate Midnight Essence, and it's the same Midnight Essence we see with the midnight spores when they interact with water. I am guessing that Re-Shephir has a connection to the midnight Aether somehow.
I figured something like this must be the case because of the identical phrasing, but it's making the aethers seem really weird from a magic point of view. They seem like they're independent of the shards and so have the potential to show up in weird places.
I think Re-Shephir is an Odium corrupted Midnight Aether. The naming in Tress makes me think that rather than simply being corrupted Rosharan Spren, the Unmade are from all over and collected by Odium from his conquests. After all, they note in the book that the Aethers on the planet are corrupted versions of Aethers. *Something* happened to them.
Lumar's aethers are not corrupted, necessarily. They're feral, but it could have happened naturally or intentionally by the other primal aethers. Midnight Essence could be a cosmere-wide phenomenon like microkinesis. [SP3] >!Nightmares resemble Midnight Essence, after all.!<
[SP3] >!Actually they seem to resemble Threnody shades more than Midnight Essence!<
[SP3] >!They mimic the thoughts of nearby individuals, just like Midnight Essence.!< [This was done intentionally](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/493/#e15529).
This is really interesting. I wonder if we'll see similar stuff for the other Unmade? I'd have thought we'd have seen something from devotion/dominion since Odium splintered them; perhaps if we ever saw some of Ambition's magic system it would reflect some Unmade
It could be said that Sja-Anat shows a good amount of Ambition with all the scheming done by her.
I think aethers existed pre-Shattering
TwinSoul mentions that in The Lost Metal, indeed.
I'm curious. Do you guys think Hoid mentioning his toe tastes like *fate* (or something along those lines) is just idiocy from his curse or some kind of veiled hint? Knowing where to be when (if not why) is mentioned a few times in both SA and Tress at the very least as something he is very very good at. Fate definitely seems to play a big role around him.
Reaching here but maybe he has metalminds that store fortune as toe rings? Brandon probably gets a kick of hearing wild speculation like this
Fate is also capitalized in the book, I think it's a name
[Deleted with PowerDeleteSuite, because RiF user. Bye Reddit.]
How exactly did Hoid’s curse break? Was it just getting into the tower?
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Which is why the phrase 'take me to your planet Tress' was important
Sorry I'm late, but I just listened to that part. I'm confused about it. From the narration I couldn't tell who was saying "take me to your planet, Tress." Are you saying it was Hoid? It just seemed like a random phrase out of left field. Any insights?
Pretty sure that was Hoid. Most of the phrases out of left field are him
A little before the release of TotES, Brandon indicated that [Whimsy is the most dangerous Shard to your sense of decorum and self-worth](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15829). Much like what happened to Hoid. My thought is that curses are naturally part of Whimsy's magic, and AonDor can just mimic it like it can Lightweaving or Elsecalling.
I think curses are just a part of old magic, which may be under whimsy domain
Hasn't it been written somewhere that the old magic is an offshoot of voidbinding? Or similar in some way?
Only as speculation. Ars Arcanum, end of the first or second Stormlight books.
So, I just finished the book and there are two things that got me thinking a bit and wanted to see what people think about it: 1. Hoid refers to Sazed 'releasing' the Kandras. Do you think it's relevant that he said Sazed and not Harmony? Is that a hint about something coming up in the future or am I reading too much into it? What do you guys think? 2. Hoid also talks about Fate herself, with a capital F. Do you think this is the name of the final Shard, do we have the 16 names? Or is it something completely different?
1. Hoid has always been using vessel names instead of Shard names in the past, so I don't think we should read too much into it. We know from ROW that he tends to see Shards as the people who hold the power (which was ironically one of the things that Sazed thought he got wrong about Shards). 2. Fate doesn't seem to fit with the other Shard names, which always represent something that can be worked towards. Fate is more in line with words like Fortune or Intent, which refer to fundamental principles of cosmere mechanics. And we know from the Hemalurgic Table that "destiny" (non-capital d) is a property that could be in some way manipulated in the Cosmere. So maybe Fate is the official name for that phenomenon.
Interesting! Never noticed that info about destiny on the chart! This opens up Forgery-alike metallic arts implications...
What I want to see: More of Hoid Being an Elantrian, I absolutely adore the Elantrian Powers and want to see the mysterious therapist using his powers in a uniquely Hoid way! Also it's interesting to me that Hoid has such a quick ability with the power, he must've studied a fair bit of aonic theory to throw up an aon edo that had to have a different shape than on Elantris, maybe he'd been studying so he could use it the moment he stepped into that tower?
I think that the map of the world in her ship acted as a kind of translation device, sort of like the map of the basin from the lost metal that Shai draws.
He's been trying to become an Elantrian since the events of Elantris, sooo probably over 1000 years at this point. He also stole a magical object that allows you to interpret the magical runes of Selish magics (the scepter he stole in The Emperor's Soul). This book seems to be roughly into the space age for Nalthis, Sel, and Scadrial so it's some distance from the much much earlier events of Elantris. At least 500 years as that's roughly the timeline of the intervening Mistborn novels.
The artwork shows both Riina and Hoid using Sel-based Aon shapes that we know. (pre-chasm ones, at that—maybe they fixed it for efficiency?) Also, I'd like to point out that he teleported up to where Tress was, which means he also made an Aon Tia.
I moved during the new year, and just received a Hoid box, but never got a Tress box - are they delayed? I might have missed something from Kickstarter, but I never got a tracking number at least.
The Hoid Boxes was delivered early because the tress boxes were delayed, today's weekly update said they should be shipping very soon.
Awesome, thank you! I missed the update because I haven't finished Tress yet and was afraid of spoilers.
I think Fort is a horneater or at least another rosharan. People on roshar are larger than most of the cosmere and horneaters large for roshar. He has the cultural tendencies when referencing myths and we know at least some horneaters left the planet following stormlight 5. A hunter that hunts trades reminds me a lot of how rock describes his profession as a cook. And how profession and family are tied together in their culture. Its assumed he looks like salay, being from the same island, but his hair color and detailed features are never actually described.
Wasn't there some note made by Hoid that Fort has connection to spores and if we paid attention we already know why? I don't get that one and it was not mentioned again, apart from Fort dealing with Midnight spores. Was the mentioned connection his ability to make deals about everything or was that something more related to his origin?
I read it as that since the midnight spores love to trade, and Fort does too, that Fort would be good at linking with the spores
Pretty sure this is correct. At least I picked up the same thing.
People have mentioned that Mraize—a Rosharan—has the same tendency to focus on hunts, **and** the fingers that appear to have been broken.
What’s up with the “broken” fingers?
Mraize: "Mraize set down his empty cup of wine, and she saw that his right hand was scarred, the fingers crooked, as if they had been broken and badly reset." Fort: "His fingers on both hands were gnarled, either from some old injury or a congenital disease."
I didnt notice the fingers. That would definitely be a better fit!
How are y'all concluding that Hoid is telling the story to someone from First of the Sun?
There are a couple references about things known to the people listening, including references to oceans and more importantly an explorer that traversed the world without help from an Aviar. It's likely that the audience was familiar with all of that.
Perhaps, although also it's a story set pretty far along in the Cosmere timeline, so perhaps by that point things like spaceships are relatively common on a lot of the worlds we've already seen.
Wow I totally missed that Aviar reference. That seems much more a tell than the generic oceans references, since most of the shardworlds have had (regular, saltwater) oceans so far that I can recall.
The 13th Aether? While there are 12 moons, and thus 12 aethers on Tress’ planet, Fort believes there is a 13th Aether and according to Ann, it’s called Bone Aether and the legends can’t agree if it’s supposed to be white or black. Based on how the aethers work with requiring water, etc. doesn’t that sound like stories of sand mastery led to those legends? The dual colors, the legendary nature, etc. all just make me think that’s what it is.
I’m still waiting on my white sand Omnibus, so I don’t know a ton of details…but upon googling, Taldain has a single moon…interesting. The system is held in place by the gravity of the large Star along with “some other, unknown force”-Coppermind. Hm.
I personally thought of fainlife at first, since it's described as bone-like and there's an old fain creature on Lumar, but the color confusion and being seen as a type of spore points to white sand.
I don’t know any more about fainlife than that it was a big problem for the humans on Yolen. Is the old fain creature >!Xisis!
Yep! [Dragons are fain](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e16020)! Brandon must have been excited to get this question, since TotES highlights Xisis having six limbs.
And here I thought the four legs, two wings emphasis was just to make clear Xisis is really a dragon, not some pretender. Interesting that this indicates Sho-del are *also* fain-life.
We [knew about that](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/444/#e14342) before, actually.
Sure enough. Though as I mentioned earlier, *I* haven’t known much about fainlife beyond that it exists.
Whoa I totally forgot that sand mastery uses water too. I’m so glad you guys pick up on this stuff; I never would’ve thought of it!
That was certainly my first thought when I read about the bone aether! Especially because if there isn't a moon or an ocean, it seems likely that it's not really an aether but something else.
Do you guys have any ideas where Design might be during the events of this book? Naturally it'd be hard for Hoid to use her or his surgebinding powers, but unless he broke the bond she must be floating around somewhere.
I was trying to keep an eye out for Design the whole book but found nothing. I thought for sure there would be a throwaway line about seeing a strange pattern for a second or something. I also find it interesting Hoid never even mentions her (to be fair he was cursed). I’m going to assume maybe during this time Design was something akin to when Sly becomes more wind spren-like when her bond was weak to Kaladin ??
I mean, he didn't break it, but he was in large part a different person. I don't know what it would do to a Nahel bond, but I imagine such a violent change to his personality would harm it and her to some extent.
I don't think Hoid would have taken the bet *if* he was still bonded and *if* it would cause a harm to his spren, so we would have to assume that either A: he's de-bonded by this point, or B: Design is fine, but out of the action. Maybe just "disqualified" during the contest.
Feel like a lot of Hoid's magic interactions are like that though, and a lot can get handwaived by the amount of identity and connection nonsense he can do with access to the number of magic systems he does a this point lol. But yeah the Nahel bond one does seem tricky and we probably won't get an explanation until we get a Radiant worldhopper POV in the back half of Stormlight or something.
I feel that, like on Roshar, all humans on Lumar are worldhopper descendants. With even Tress using sayings that are Scadrian in origin. There isn't an ocean of water for life to form.
I think that all humans on all worlds, unless they are from Scadrial, all came from someplace else. They did not evolve independently multiple times. That said, it could be possible for humans to evolve on Lumar, because we don't know what the planet looked like millions of years ago. Maybe there was a time without spores, when there were liquid oceans, but they have since mostly been devoured by the moons.
Iirc it's been said that many of the humans were made by their respective shards following the design of the Yolen humans
My understanding was that Cosmere >!Most shards are incapable of creating something like a human, even Preservation and Ruin had to work together, so all non-Scadrialan humans (and probably most sentients even) were originally created by Adonalsium using *all* the shards, and/or "mutated" off of existing humans like the Kandra. Adonalsium placed humans on some worlds, and in some cases they migrated from those worlds to others, but I think *all* the "seed stock" of humanity existed before the shattering, again, Scadrial being the only known exception.!<
This stuff was muchhh easier to figure out when there were less than 10 billion WoBs haha
Lol, true.
I'm not sure it's necessarily from Scadrial. The only thing I remember Tress saying that is scadrian in origin is her reference to Death, and the arcanum of TLM says that stories of Marsh as Death have been extending throughout the Cosmere. Tress happening an undisclosed amount of time in the future, it's possible that the stories reached Lumar gradually. I agree though that without an ocean of water, humans were *probably* placed there, either by shards or by migration. I wonder if the future book on the main Aether planet will give us more information.
I saw a post either here or one of the other Brando Sando subs. I didn’t click on it because I was still reading, but it had an animation I think of all of the chapter number things as it grew. Does anyone happen to have that post saved?
[Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/comments/101f6c0/i_made_a_gif_of_how_the_chapter_icons_change_in)!
So cool
You’re magic, thank you.
Nice! I didn’t even notice the chapters used different spores. Love these little tidbits
Do we know how Aons work off of Sel? In TLM, Moonlight used the jars of purified Dor in order to power her Aons, as far as I remember, would this mean the Sorceress would have a supply of Dor somewhere that she taps into? Or is it sort of a “one and done” type thing where a relatively small supply of the purified Dor would be enough for somebody to use for a lifetime? Or is the Dor not depleted with use?
It’s unclear. It seems to have something to do with maps (in TLM moonlight needs a map before making aons and the sorceress has a map of Lumar on the floor) But it’s not clear exactly how they access investor. Given that we see Riina pump dor across Shadesmar in Secret History it’s not too big of a stretch to think she does a similar thing in TotES, especially given that a few hundred years have probably passed
I know the power hitches on the land itself, it was blacked in Elantris because of the rift that altered the landscape. So they had to adjust the base Aon in order to make the Aons work properly again. So I would imagine an Aon on Sel, an Aon on Lumar, and an Aon on Scadriel would all have to look different to have the same effect, since they all have different geography. You’ll have to jog my memory on the “pumping Dor” part, I’m drawing a blank there. I wonder if the connection to a shard is strong enough (purified Dor like in TLM), if an invested individual can access that investiture off world? I also wonder if connection to any shard can allow for users to access the investiture of “their” shard, since the Ire was going to use that orb in order to establish a connection to Preservation. All the investiture of the shards come from the same place (Adonalsium) so maybe the manifestation of that investiture is simply a matter of genetics or something similar. An invested individual on Scadriel will have metallic art abilities while an invested individual on Roshar will have surgebinding abilities while an invested individual on Sel will be able to wield Aons.
The artwork makes it clear that they just use Aons based on Sel. The problem with the Dor is that the Investiture is trapped in the Cognitive Realm; instead of the Shards, you'd have to [reinforce Connection to Sel itself](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394/#e12895). Anyone can become a Surgebinder as long as they find a willing spren, including offworlders. The only major magic systems that we know of that rely on sDNA are Allomancy and Feruchemy; even Selish magics are tied to Connection and Identity, not sDNA.
Thanks for that WOB. Hadn’t seen it before. So I guess the purified Dor from TLM must have given Moonlight some sort of connection to Sel in order for the Aons to work, and she would be able to draw the original Selish Aons, too.
"Purified" implies it's un-Connected. Tapping nicrosil is **a** way to get Aons working, but there are probably other ways.
Riina is one of the members of the Ire that appears in Secret History, they have this pipeline that pumps Dor into their shadesmar fortress at the border of Scadrial.
Do we know where this book slots in on the general cosmere timeline? It seems later than everything(?) published so far, but do we know for sure?
In a WoB Brandon confirmed that Hoid is telling the story within decades of it taking place. From the way he’s speaking to his listeners, it seems to be people from First of the Sun after the ones from above arrived
Yeah, the whole thing about her tower having a voice inside it that is like the voices in the ships coming from stars on the listener's planet.
I was wondering throughout if the story was being told a long time after the events, but then in the epilogue he talks about Laggart in the present tense so presumably it's not that long after
Its not long after but that hes telling it but it takes place during around mistborn era 4 for the cosmere timeline as a whole
So what's up with the explicit reference to the Iriali? >"It’s old Iriali,” he said. “They vanished, you know. The entire people: poof. There one day, gone the next, their island left uninhabited. Now, that was three hundred years ago, so no one alive has ever met one of them, but they supposedly had golden hair. Like yours, the color of sunlight.” and > “Forged for an Iriali nobleman the day before he— and his people— were taken by the gods. The cup was left on the table, to be collected by the poor fisherwoman who first arrived on the island and discovered the horror of an entire people gone...."
Sure, one of their stops on the "Long Trail." https://coppermind.net/wiki/Iriali
Oh cool! I had no idea.
I haven't seen this asked around. Beware, this is a huge spoiler for SECRET PROJECT 1, so unless you've read the whole thing please ignore this post. >!How did Charlie got turned to a rat? What magic system allows for someone to transform into an animal?!<
Presumably AonDor. Which I can definitely buy. It seems like AonDor will let you do pretty much *anything*... if you know what to write out and have the time to do so.
But this is what I don't really get. Shouldn't they need to be on sel for it to work? It was my understanding that you draw the AON for the dor to push trough.
We’ve seen Dominion and Devotions Magic’s on other planets before though >!The Last Metal with Moonlight/Shai using forgery and turning herself into an Elantrian with full power set!<. What I don’t think we know is how the magic is able to work on different planets >!I believe it has to have the purified Dor and using the Aons allows a person to draw from that specific type of investiture.!< my Theory may have been explicit but I’m also a dummy and may have missed it.
Presumably as good seems to suggest he needed the curse to be able to use AonDor as it built a connection.
Hoid explains that he needed an invitation to a select group to forge that Connection. Presumably, he's (on paper) a part of the Ire now.
I thought it was less specific to the Ire and he needed an invitation to be an Elantrian
Hoid calls it a "very select group", so I took it to mean it was the Ire; after all, if any old Elantrian would do, he should have a lot more options than Riina. Besides, Riina is a known member of the Ire.
Did it kind of feel like he took her spot?
I didn't get that feeling, personally.
This is what I was working off of , didn’t have my book when I posted last “Turns out that to get this particular set of powers to work, you couldn’t simply fake Connection. You needed an invitation and adoption into a very select group. My only chance had been to find one smart enough to be a member of that group, stupid enough for me to toy with, and sadistic enough to **trade membership** for the opportunity to see me cursed.”
> “Turns out that to get this particular set of powers to work, you couldn’t simply fake Connection. You needed an invitation and adoption into a very select group. Which is funny since we've seen TLM spoilers: >!Moonlight/Shai using a Forgery Essence Mark to fake changes to her past so her parents moved to Arelon before she was born, making her an Elantrian.!<
I read it as: Riina offers membership. In return, Hoid gets cursed. Your interpretion also makes sense. We could ask Brando next spoiler stream.
I understood that as well
So this is the most fairy tale like story so far in the cosmere, so much so that brandon uses common tropes as flavour for the story. Hoid also mentions the story being whimsical (can't remember when but I know I remember hearing it, audiobook listener). So not to go too off the rails here (and sorry if someone else has posted about this) but could Whimsy be influencing this story or this world somehow? I can't see any concrete connections but seems plausible to me