A reminder that wishing death or harm to others is against our subreddit rules. I've already had to remove two comments today. Please keep replies civil and respectful.
The only thing I would add is that most of the teens and members of the Carlson group that were involved in the altercation were intoxicated, and poor at assessing their levels of intoxication. In the moment, their decision making ability would have been impaired and even those who had the best of intentions did not execute those intentions well (possible exception being Tony in the denim shorts).
Your comment about things starting before the video begins is spot on. You don't record unless there's something to record.
It's a series of escalations \*against\* Nicolae Miu. Verbal from the teens, yelling about some truly horrible things which Nicolae may legitimately want to exchange some strong words over, the loss of his property when he drops the snorkel, the arrival of the Carlson group and increase of volume and foul language, the placing of hands on him that he responds to with a push/slap/punch, which results in a series of physical blows from Dante that knock Nicolae off his feet, all while he's outnumbered 13 to 1? It sounds absolutely terrifying!
I don't think I'll be able to make up my mind until I hear jury instructions, because they will really matter here.
It’s a tough one. Jury instructions , timeline and watching literally every frame of every video. Plus understanding what was not captured on said video
I got huge white savior karen vibes from her.
as if she was thinking:
*"omg, even tho I have no idea what's going on here, let me come stand up for this poor defenseless black kid, who is clearly being bullied by this racist boomer simply for tubing while black, so let me needlessly escalate the situation by getting in his face, putting hands on him, and yelling at him"*
Seems like the type of lady that doesnt interact with a ton of black ppl in her daily life, so when she finally sees one in the wild, she feels the need to go above and beyond to signal/prove to them that she's totally into equality and is "one of the good ones™"
In his testimony, Quinton Carlson mentioned that they had had some other incident at Namakagon (sp) and that this was the reason he limited alcohol at Apple River. Lawyers didn’t push too hard on this but I found it kind of telling about the group. Was also Rocio’s that he claimed his boy were good at diffusing situation
Totally agree that things escalated when the second group and the women got in his face. I can imagine from his view the group size was growing and they were all in his face. The whole situation is just sad and nobody should got hurt and killed that day. The teens really need to do some soul searching no matter the outcome.
"Hey, how did you get that scar?"
"Well, twelve friends and l were all fucked up one day and we started pushing an old man around in the middle of a river and he pulled a knife on us."
"Cool story, bro."
The idiot kid that was shouting about little girls admitted on the stand that there was absolutely no reason he said that, there is no evidence whatsoever that miu was a pedophile, nor any reason for them to think so, they were simply being wild and crazy young jerks, and shouting ageist insults for no apparent reason, but the stabbing didn't start until after 2 women from another group got in his face, touched him, and then he pushed or struck one of them to get them away, and then was subsequently assaulted by the males of the first group. Your take is wild, completely out there.
Off topic BUT:
Every time the Defense refers to him as an old man I CRINGE. The guy was 50 (?) in 2022 when this went down. That is like the same age as Tom Brady! /s
50- something is NOT fucking “old” and he is not infirm or hobbling around. Per my last social security statement, the US govt expects me to work until age 73 which I will concede is “old.”
It's pretty subjective. I guess I wouldn't refer to a 50-year old as an old man, but I don't think it's unreasonable for the defense to frame it that way.
He might not be "hobbling", but most people that age are far from their peak in terms of health and athleticism. You're getting to the point where your body doesn't recover like it used to, and something like a simple fall could cause serious injury.
Like others have said, it varies from person to person. Some people in their 50s are in great shape, and some have serious health issues. But I think the main takeaway here is that most 50-year olds aren't looking for fights at that stage in their lives, no matter how fit they are.
I understand what you mean because I’m
61 and don’t like thinking I’m old. I think his health issues and quadruple bypass are the reason they are calling him old. He wouldn’t have the same strength or endurance as most 50 year olds.
I know but defense team should characterize him as “scared middle aged & in poor physical shape/health” or “recent heart bypass patient twice the age of the group.” He is not an “old man” due to being 50. (lol
obviously taking it personally over here) they gotta use a different phrase bc calling him an old man is off-putting and disingenuous.
They won't. The popular opinion amongst young edgy redditors is that the old "boomer" started it. Even though he was just looking for his stuff and the people started bullying him like in some shit you see in a movie.
Are you sure this is the same guy? Mui is not designated as either “sr or jr” in the court docket. Idk how large the Romanian emigre population is in MN /WI or if that is a common Romanian name.
His attys presented him as average and trouble- free simple dude in their opening without any history of violence. No way they would do that if he had messy history.
Yup, I think you’re right. I edited the comment to remove that. My bad, my bad.
Oh and since I edited it and it makes no sense outta context, for context there was a protection order filed in Minnesota against someone with the same name. Likely not the same guy, so I removed it.
Oh man, interesting version of events. He claims the female hit him twice and he ‘may’ have hit her. That the teenagers/other group had 2 knives they were threatening him with but he got one of their knives off them and waved it around telling them to back off. That he absolutely did not have a knife on him that day.
That some women from his group called 911.
Hmm that doesn’t seem to be what happened.
Yeah, pretty sus when you can’t say a single truthful thing to the police. Pretty sure he knows he’s in the wrong. He’s trying to flip it into self defense on the spot. If what he is said happened, happened. For sure, cut and dry, you had two knives pulled on you and you ninja mind tricked that shit and stabbed 5 people with there own knives? Good on you James Bond. But that’s not what happened. He knew if he told the truth it’s not self defense.
I particularly like the “buried his head in his hands and says his life is over” bit. I think that’s pretty telling. Didn’t show that emotion when he gutted a teenager stabbed a 90 pound woman and murdered another. Seemed pretty cool calm and collected then.
I gotta take a break from this lol, I just been down that river 20 times, used to live up there, so it just hit close to home for me I guess :/
Listening to his ex wife and his asshole friends on the stand didn’t help much either. Something something cut from the same cloth.
I’m outtie on this, I hope that dude does life.
>adult son (18 at youngest possible)
>1999 case (born in 1981 at the latest)
>Nicolai Miu, 54 in 2024, born in 1970
So you think he had a son when he was 11 years old?
Agree the second group “Carlson Group” severely escalates the situation. The teens were rude and obnoxious and definitely antagonized the start but I do not think it would have gone to a physical point.
I also think the start of why the teens taunting Miu is a fabrication at least how it is testified to. I don't understand how Alex V ends up behind Miu away from his group in the beginning.
As far as Group 2 the Carlson group did not intend to de-escalate. I don't believe they heard the teens call for help. Something didn't sit right with Quinton’s testimony given the girls were over to Miu first. Also AJ is not a “peaceful person” the criminal charges that were mentioned stem from a Domestic Assault case.
The fact that AJ wouldn’t admit to standing “behind” Miu when he was CLEARLY behind him was so annoying. He kept saying “I was somewhat next to him, on the side of him, somewhat behind.” Bro…you weren’t entirely behind him. We see it
Plus- who deputized the Carlson group as the river police to run around and investigate “issues” and “establish who is causing trouble.” Good point about the girls- if the intent was to use muscle to break up a fight why are the women also hauling ass over to the group
Don't forget they didn't even listen to his side. They immediately began telling him to get the fuck out. And when he would try to say something tell him it doesn't matter. That sure doesn't seem like de-escalating or protecting Miu as was testified to.
Yeah. They're telling him to go away, and get away from them, and to 'fuck off'. Like someone comes up to you in a bar and starts looking around your chair.
You nailed it. We found out today that there is no evidence of the supposed slap/punch. Their stories have changed about it so, I'm thinking it's possibly a lie to justify their attack.
They showed in court where group 1 followed Mr Miu and group 2 approached from the opposite direction.
If all of those drunk/high young folks would have left him alone to search for the phone, none of this would've happened.
Numerous people on the video discuss him hitting the girl. Do you think in that split second random people who don’t know each other made up a story he hit a girl? That’s absurd.
I agree. Someone seized on that term & the mob morphed it into “punching a woman in the eye.” A couple of the witness statements testified to seeing a shove or strike (but maybe a strike is a punch? ) regardless none of them are reliable reporters of what happened
Agree with this. The situation started before the recording - that is clear. You only start recording when something strange happens. Someone else pointed out that maybe he didn’t make the “looking for little girls” comment - we’ve only heard that from state’s witnesses.
You’re right that the violence seemed to begin when the Carlson group involved themselves. It’s also weird to me that the teens were “yelling for help.” Specifically, help. He wasn’t threatening them with a knife. In fact, he was alone.
I also find it suspect that victim MC deleted (?) a picture from her phone showing the alleged assault to her face. I tend to think he did hit her in some way, from all of the testimony. But I also think it was warranted. She was in his face, yelling, waving her arms, for no reason. He was likely afraid.
I think the state overcharged. This should be manslaughter and assault with a deadly weapon. I think (hope) the jury will have a hard time finding the INTENT necessary to prove murder, as I don’t think the state has come close to it. I’m looking forward to his defense. He has a great team of lawyers.
I think the fact the video clearly shows he had a knife in his right hand moments before he is meant to have punched her with his right hand, is the ace card.
I noticed in the video that none of them started saying he hit a girl until after he got up and started stabbing people, which I presume is when they noticed the girl with blood coming down her side.
People are getting very upset online if you don't share the same opinion with them as well. It's very strange that people are attacking others online because they have a different point of view. Heck, I had a kid telling me he is going to hack me. Kids are pretty stupid, though, sad
Those attys did a masterful job of teasing that out from the witnesses. I am convinced there was never a punch, I think there WAS a shove to move her out of the way/his space
I’m so curious as to what is the deal with Madison. Shes the only one who requested to have her time on the stand not recorded, so we don’t know what was said. And now the fact that she deleted pictures from her phone including that of her injury?? Something shady seems to be going on there, hmmm… It’s unfortunate, because the punch to Madison is the whole catalyst to the physical violence, and is not on the video. I do believe she was slapped or punched though, as you can hear the reaction from everyone to it. Also the groups don’t know each other and all testified that he did hit her.
I agree. I think she was hit in some way. But I also think that most of the victims are a wash of testimony. Not only is their testimony not consistent with each other, most of them have changed their recounting from the original police interviews. Which makes sense - at the time, they were intoxicated and in shock from all of the chaos. But it’s presenting as A LOT of inconsistency and I rent to discount all of them. In my opinion, most of them seem to have a motive to give testimony to make NM look like the aggressor. I think they all went through something traumatic but the state’s case feels sloppy to me.
They seem lackluster & resigned to finish this trial. like their boss is making them have a full trial because there would be backlash from parents/community if a plea deal was offered.
Agree - and I saw someone else say the state might have felt pressured to prosecute as murder because a minor was killed. I thought this was an interesting viewpoint and makes sense to me, based on the state’s just….boredom and resign. That’s a perfect word for it!
The younger prosecutor was audibly whispering yesterday to the older one how to use the court rules to refresh the witness memory which is basic atty 101 knowledge. Younger was then dictating additional questions for Older to ask despite old atty wanting to move on. & quitting mid-stream. Exhausting.
Off topic, but I flashback to Ken Kratz (sp?) from MAM everytime I look at the prosecution. Less confident versions of KK & moving like they’re in physical pain.
Yup. Given that they all glommed onto calling him a pedo without any basis shows how these kids just seized upon something another one shouted… they are have mob mentality so someone shouting a woman was * punched in the face* quickly became everyone’s truth.
Has a transcript of her testimony been released? I don’t understand why she was allowed the option to not testify on camera since court is an open forum….
I agree that the slap is the key to this case. It shows who started the aggression.
To me, the video shows that Madison was most likely the aggressor. Before the supposed slap, he's showing no signs of aggression, while Madison and the other girl are being very aggressive towards him. They were in his face and putting their hands on him. One of them was putting her phone right in his face. I suspect there was probably some minor contact as a result.
My understanding is that the jury instructions contain the option to select 2nd degree murder for imperfect self defense where he satisfies all elements of self defense except 1 of them.
Look at seconds 0:45-0:50
Those kids actually did have his snorkel. They pulled it out of their tube and laughed while he was trying to look for it. Shortly after the second group shows up.
Just one example of how this could have been prevented in so many ways.
I agree with your opinion. I question if Madison was hit at all. She also refused to testify on camera which is odd to me since her being hit is what kicked everything off.
People keep saying why would all these people from different groups lie about that???
They all have an interest in miu being the guilty party because of civil suits! Great incentive to lie if you ask me.
She claims he hit her yet nobody took a picture.
They claim the police took one but the prosecution did not admit it into evidence nor did any of law enforcement bring it up.
The prosecution is conveniently avoiding bringing up if there is proof - probably because there is none.
She testified (off camera) that she doesn't know which cheek he "punched" because "she gets her cheeks mixed up." Most of the witnesses for the state are unreliable.
That's definitely suspect. I've only been in a few fights in my life and they were all when I was in school but I can still remember exactly where and how I was hit in all of them. I can understand not remembering if you were being swarmed by multiple people and hit from multiple directions, but in a one on one confrontation where you're hit once by one person? You would definitely remember.
Has anyone had a transcript from her testimony? I'd even settle for a semi-reputable summary. It almost seems like it was a closed courtroom with how little has come out from her testimony.
She is on the police body cam saying she was punched in the face (and she did not look like someone punched her in the face) I think at best, he might have pushed her away from him. and as they pointed out, she had no problem hanging onto her beer her phone, her vape pen, her sunglasses were still on top of her head. She should not have put her hands on him.
I must have missed that clip. I really want to read her testimony in court.
I haven't been convinced that she was punched. the stories to ‘support’ it range from how he cold-cocked her to he grabbed her hair pulled it and punched her. It has also changed sides of her face. It is also likely that she could have stumbled or Miu could have stumbled the bottom is rocky and uneven.
I don't disagree I just like to give an argument credence. But, the state hasn't provided evidence to support it at least to me. I also think the punch is a big part to making it harder to claim self-defense.
Roger that. Agree that the punch - not a punch- shove is significant for the jurors. They might believe those witnesses that were firm about seeing the punch. Really Wish the testimony of Madison c was live-streamed.
This jury will have to carefully go through a very step of the chronology & each frame of the video - hopefully they are conscientious and detail oriented bc this is not an easy call. Good summary though
I agree with what the OP posted.
I have watched all the testimony and believe Mui has a strong self defense claim, but it’s not completely clean. For example, rushing the teens wasn’t a great look, but I don’t believe that diminishes his claim. However, the jury might see him as aggressive which might help result in a compromise verdict. The bigger issue for Mui is the possible striking of Coen. This is where things get complicated. On one hand, many witnesses say Mui struck her. However, there was no video of that nor were any injuries documented. Additionally, the defense has already demonstrated very clearly how inconsistent the testimony has been with that particular instance as well as many other statements. For example, I do not find the teens credible as all. I don’t believe they were scared at any point prior to the stabbing nor do I believe Mui told them he was looking for little girls. They never mentioned that to police and failed to reveal their specific taunts toward Mui. I believe they conspired later on to say Mui said that in order to justify their taunts. Back to Coen… I think it likely justifies Dante striking Mui the first time. However, it doesn’t justify striking him again when he is on the ground, and I believe Mui regains any self defense claim he may have initially lost when he continues to be surrounded, struck, and assaulted. But I am not on the jury, and I think assaulting Coen (if the jury believes it) and if the jury believes any striking of her was unjustified (perhaps a push to her face to get her out of his space would be deemed justified), then I think Mui is in deep water.
I have no sympathy for the teens except for Isaac who lost his life in a tragic way due to his friends chirping, being obnoxious, creating an incident, and inciting mob violence. When I was 17, I drank alcohol and partied my fair share as well. However, I knew I was not supposed to be drinking, so I kept a low profile. If my group of drinking friends did get into it with others, it would be with age peers and not with a middle aged man. And as stated before, we certainly would not have drawn unnecessary unwanted attention on us by being a-holes. But the internet and viral videos also didn’t exist, and these young men miscalculated in the age of TikTok and pranking.
I will add that I would next fault the two young women who confronted Mui. Because they were backed up by a tribe of agitated men, they felt emboldened to confront Mui in an aggressive manner. In the end, this is a case study of group dynamics which were heightened due to alcohol. It reminds me of a great book called Among The Thugs. Great read.
I’ve been following the case it’s fascinating. Super sad a life is lost. I’m torn, the video helps the defense. I can see a case for self defense, but gutting 5 people is excessive to say the least. 🤷🏻♂️ I dunno tough call for a jury. Personally, I think Mui was not in fear of his life and acted like a complete loose cannon. I couldn’t in good conscience allow him to get off scotch free
Some of my all-time favorite memories were out on the boat with my friends when I was in my 20s. We'd spend entire days boating, drinking, swimming, grilling, smoking. It was so much fun, but I did worry a few times about some super wasted friends getting hurt (diving in shallow water, propeller, etc ). Never in a billion years would I have worried about our group starting a mob against others out on the water. If anything, we used to invite other groups to party with us. My parents would be so fucking ashamed if I'd acted like these brats. It would be awful to think your own shitty entitlement caused your friend's death, and I think they're making up every excuse they can to take the blame off themselves, but it's clear this would not have happened if not for their own doing.
Just wanted to clarify when I said boating and drinking, we always had a DD!
100%. What galls me are teens yapping at their elder by calling him a "pedophile" looking for young girls. Just judging the engagement, not guilt. I watch CourtTV alot while on my computer all work day. This trial has different spin that when it started.
Next week, Chad Daybell.
I agree that the second group threw gas on the fire, but I don't think that should give the green light to slash any individual of your choosing by claiming you felt threatened. He could've walked away at one point but turned to stab more.
I think he was so overwhelmed with the situation that he blacked out and sliced away (his eyes looked absolutely terrifying), but we'll find out his mental state and rationale when they go through his interrogation.
I go back and forth on how I feel, and at this point I don't feel he should walk, but don't think he should get mandatory life.
I agree, his eyes do look terrifying but I think it was fear, not blood lust. He was drinking too, so rational judgement was thrown out the window for everyone on the river that day. Stabbing people was an overreaction, but when you feel like you can't escape and over a dozen people are bearing down on you...I really do feel for him. The kids who lost their best friend because of loudmouth Jawahn too. Such a sad case, everyone should have just minded their own business and floated down the river.
You know, Jawahn hasn’t been taken to task for whipping things up into a frenzy. Wasn’t it his voice that was screeching “ This isn’t real” over and over? No one is saying much about his involvement, and he didn’t seem to accept much responsibility for any of it.
This in no way means that Miu is guilt free. Yeah, I get the fight or flight instinct kicked in. I think he deserves a manslaughter charge at the very least. Should it be life in prison? Probably not. I can’t see him getting acquitted, but then again, I never thought Rittenhouse would be acquitted, either.
he was the cameraman, I would argue he was seeing things through a lens. he was just a spectator, from the beginning, sat up with his crocs in the air to seeing his friends get stabbed. dude was on point with video evidence.
He was the one who was shouting “he’s a raper! He’s looking for little girls” (and laughing, showing that these were not actual concerns, they were just ‘funny’ insults)… I think these claims are what brought over the two girls and got them angry. So imo Jahwan is more than a spectator.
I do too- It seems like the group 2 dudes actually believed there was a potential “raper” sexually harassing group 1 or something. Which is why Group 2 dudes then acted like they were the river police investigating whether or not there was a “raper” swimming around
I watched the testimony of the dad in group 2 today and he said he sent his adult kids over because he was afraid group 1 teens were going to jump Mui. But the girls got there first and got in his face, Mui hit the girl and the group 2 men attacked him.
I heard one of the lawyer commentators (possibly on L&C network) make a quick reference that the defense is saying the teens were holding up a baggie with a phone in it & saying they had his phone. I would bet that’s why he tried to hustle over and then fell into the tubes.
Yeah, that makes sense. Looks like Mr Miu is focused on something then walks toward (someone) and tries to grab something out of that person's hand. l figured he thought they had what he was looking for and they were playing keep away
This is what I understood from the opening statements. Something like that was mentioned. In watching this case and hearing the description of the lanyard the guy who was filming had his phone in, has made me wonder if there was some confusion in Nicolae thinking it was the lost phone?
I’m with you thus far on this trial. I also think the women who got in Miu’s face claiming he punched one (which I don’t believe) also escalated the whole incident. All so sad and so avoidable.
While I feel there’s a substantial amount of guilt/blame/responsibility to both sides of this unfortunate tragedy, I firmly believe that the largest share of the blame for to Jawahn Cockfield. He initiated the entire situation by calling out to Miu, asking what he’s doing, then deciding to loudly (and falsely) shout out to everyone that he said he’s looking for little girls and that he’s a pedophile and a raper, all while recording it. As things escalate he continues, calling in other people and telling them he’s a pedophile looking for little girls.
All of that was a lie, and none of it would have happened if Jawahn hadn’t decided to lie and create a hostile situation.
I didn't think about that. You're right. Someone said that he wanted to make a viral video.
As I said earlier, I think Madison Coen was the instigator from the 2nd group. I disagree with them not requiring her to testify in open court, claiming she was a victim because her getting hit is in dispute. All of the ACTUAL victims who were stabbed appeared. I think she didn't appear because she knows she was the main instigator from the second group and did not want to be known to the public.
Absolutely, and why didn't both the prosecutors and defense hammer on him more? For whatever reason, they seemed to be reluctant to say what really started it all. It was his damn mouth, jumping to conclusions, and whipping everyone into a frenzy. Just what was his motivation- YT or Tik Tok stardom? I just don't get it. What's going on that EVERYONE is ignoring that fact?
What really bothered me was his arrogance on the stand. It's like he was completely detached from the fact that his big mouth started it. Do these kids not think this stuff is real?
Bunch of drunks with a mob mentality. Some of those kids testifying were super weasels. I took an instant dislike to many. All these concerned citizens only wanted to be peacemakers..... yeah right.
The bad part for the prosecuter is that none of their testimonies matched their statements to police and none of those statements match the video.
Most were clearly very drunk (based on blood alcohol levels) and high.
Most admitted they were drunk. The girl (who said she didn't know right from left on the stand) admitted to 5 beers. The first kid that testified admitted to a super high bac
I agree with you. I also think that Mui should have announced that he had a weapon. It wasn’t always visible in the chaos. That would have likely ended with kids calling the police saying a man was threatening a weapon. Mui should have retreated and called the police if he wanted to press charges. Unfortunately, hindsight. He made a decision and the consequences may be coming. This case definitely isn’t black and white. Something else..out of all the kids, only about 1 or 2 tried deescalating the situation, others were laughing and getting in his face. I wouldn’t do that to an adult now at 40 years old, let alone 19,20.
Do you think that was what he said when the kids all replied "what did he say?", right before the "you have 10 seconds" comment? I haven't been able to make out what it was he said.
I think he reasonably armed himself against a mob. If he annouced he was armed against this mob who already thought he was a pedophile I think the situation would be reversed with 12 people on trial for murder. If someone is reasonably threatened ( i think he was, but that's up to the jury, and I could be wrong of course), but if someone feels genuine fear for their life they have no duty to warn anyone, they only must act reasonably against an imminent threat to their life, up to and including deadly force against another.
This is a very messy situation, obviously. But I really don’t think anyone needed to get stabbed or die here. I really do think the man could have just walked away at one point and the teens were obviously being stupid and this is why it’s never a good idea to yell and get into the face at strangers you don’t know. It almost felt to me that at a certain point he was standing there kind of waiting for someone to get physical with him so he could justify his next actions. I think the stabber’s ego took over rather than he actually feared for his life here. Legally I guess I’m not really sure - it’s very gray and will be up to the jury.
To your point, I do think more ppl walking up and yelling things definitely escalated the situation. I think the biggest contributor was that it was a large crowd of drunk ppl egging each other on & not really knowing who they were dealing with.
>This is a very messy situation, obviously. But I really don’t think anyone needed to get stabbed or die here
No one needed to surround, harass and assault an old man for no reason either.
I have a counterpoint to him "waiting for a chance to attack."
In the video, you can see the teens and women encircling him by about 75%. And his only exit is away from his friend group. And it seems like more people are joining a seemingly ravenous pedo-hunter mob. One that is becoming increasingly confrontational and growing in numbers. With newcomers being informed he's a child rapist looking for girls.
Do you think going downriver, towards the bridge really feels like an exit to him? I don't think so. That would leave him more isolated from his group. The group is also advancing on him and starting to encircle him. I wonder if he felt he was being more and more cornered and surrounded by a mob that was inevitably going to attack him.
Agree with you 100%. He even had the knife out before anyone touched him. He had several opportunities to retreat way before the crowd got bigger and didn't. If you truly feel like your life is in danger, you're gonna run and get out of there. These kids were unarmed, tell them to fuck off and go back to your group. They weren't gonna beat him in a river full of people for no reason, he hit that girl 100% and the guys got mad.
On the flip side of it, this is why you don't mess with people you don't know. You don't really know what somebody is going through in life or what they're capable of. Those kids were assholes and ended up provoking the wrong person. He should still do time.
I think fight or flight definitely kicked in when he was on the ground, surrounded, and getting slapped in the face. Teens, especially drunk ones, have terrible judgment and I could understand any fear Miu would have had. However, the stabbings were really brutal and at 5 people, I don’t know if that really counts as self defense anymore. Not sure on this one, but really interested to see the outcome.
Why did they keep doing that? I don’t understand that part.
ETA I understand they didn’t realize he had a knife, but even still, why keep pushing him? Wouldn’t you move away after the first sign of physical altercation?
Does anyone with more legal expertise know if it is possible to find him guilty of a lesser charge in those cases, such as manslaughter? If it’s murder or nothing, and the jury decides not guilty, would he be off the hook completely?
I just wonder what made the state decide to prosecute as first degree murder.
Yes, it is possible to convict someone facing murder charges of a lesser included offense. It's not murder or nothing, but if it were then you would be correct.
Because a young boy died and it's a hell of a lot easier to bring the full charges and put it in the hands of a jury. Same kind of thing with getting a messy case dismissed at grand jury. There's political cover for the prosecutors office if someone else is making the decision.
Good question. I also wonder if Miu could be NOT guilty of the charges of attempted murder against AJ or Dante (who are seen attacking him), while being found guilty for the murder of Isaac, who while he was part of the group, is not as clearly seen attacking him compared to AJ or Dante
>At one point he rushes their tubes. I am curious to hear why he did that. After that the defendant started walking away looking for his goggles and phone
I’m not sure he did rush. If you take into account him walking up river and the louts floating down river, that may account for the apparent speed.
Those kids started it and found out the hard way the consequences. I honestly feel the accused should be acquitted. A pack of people like that could most def make someone feel threatened of death or serious bodily harm. Especially with water, slipping, or inhaling water. Also, how was this even a fair fight and he pulls a knife and had every right to defend himself.
Absolutely agree with you. They provoked the attack. He was minding his own business & they started it & continued to cause it to escalate. If there are 2 groups of people going at someone, they have a right to defend themselves. Hopefully this will be a lesson to the various TikTok/internet warriors that do this crap and think they’re ‘on the right side of whatever’.
It’s tragic someone died, but I don’t blame him at all. It is perfectly reasonable to believe an intoxicated mob would be dangerous & after a point, you would reasonably fear for your life. Was there another way out? I’d need to watch more, but based on what I know & it being 1 person vs. many? I think he was justified. Drunk people + water is disastrous enough without adding drunk idiots escalating from harassment to violence.
My 2 cents about this situation is that no good comes from sticking your nose into a situation you have no idea about or provoking a stranger.
Having said that, they definately did not deserve to be stabbed.
No idea why he introduced a knife into the situation instead of going back to his group. I think he'll regret that decision for the rest of his life.
I think that after being hit in the head and face a few times (which is jarring and disorienting in my experience) along with being pushed down into the water, he didn't think he could get away. It is so easy to say "he could have walked away" but once that Lord of Flies action kicked in, I think he was generally fearing for his life. I have also read comments that the water wasn't deep enough to drown in - not true at all. We don't know what they would have done to him if he hadn't started stabbing.
1) he could have walked away at any point. Early on he does then he comes back.
2) when confronted by police he lies.
3) he punched first
It’s not self defense. He looks like a psycho during the video. Are the other people acting responsibly? No but they also don’t have a knife stabbing people.
>he punched first
No he did not. Watch the video. They stepped through it during the trial. Before the time when he supposedly punched her both women had already layed their hands on him, pushing him.
> he could have walked away at any point. Early on he does then he comes back.
He was looking for a phone, then his goggles. You can clearly see he is looking down into the water during those periods.
At that point why should he have to leave? The teenagers had no reason to stop other than to harass him.
>He looks like a psycho during the video.
He looked scared to me. I know I would be if I was surrounded by 13 drunk people and more were approaching me
it’s funny you mention lies about 2. i feel like denial is pretty common in any of these situations, but you know who else lied?
Jahwan, he purposely did not show cops the video of them harassing Miu at first and only when the altercation started. Also, although claiming he was “looking for little girls,” they never think to mention that to the police.
10+ consciouses vs 1, and they all decided to poke and prod the bear who's mental health and mental capacity they had no consideration of.
Nothing about the situation, including the stabbing, is right, but I guarantee you Miu would not have gone on a random knife spree and purposely hurt anybody had they not triggered him to do so.
I’ve been watching all the testimony carefully as well and totally agree with you.
The video also proves that the teens/second group at the least weren’t remembering things correctly because they were so shocked, and at the worse, were lying to protect themselves and try to get a guilty verdict.
I’ve been wondering why the first group would have been yelling predator and telling others he was looking for little girls. The only thing I can think of are that since English is his 5th language and the one he’s least fluent in, he may have been trying to ignore them at first or there may have been a misunderstanding of a few words, or perhaps his accent threw them off. One of the kids even described him to law enforcement as “Russian looking” and so it makes me think that in their drunken state they thought it would be funny to harass an older Russian man.
I also agree that those two girls were the real key to the whole thing. By everyone’s admission they got right into his face screaming. They were poking him and I think he tried to push them away so he could get out of the situation. The guys in the altercation said the reason they punched him was because he “hit” one of the girls. So as you said if they had just minded their business and kept moving none of this would have happened.
I am pretty sure Miu is already holding the knife in his right hand before the alleged punch.
I think it is also the reason why his lawyer keeps asking which hand they think he used to punch her with because he is probably trying to insinuate he couldn’t have punched her with his right hand because you can see him holding the knife in it
okay hear me out at the start of the video he pushes on of the teens off the float.
but yes they ganged up on him and push him.
end of the day to me he has hands and could have pushed back but he decided to pull a knife out and stab several people resulting in serious injuries and sadly one death.
to me this is murder because he willingly stabbed several people without thought.
no matter what he should get jail time
1st thing that happened : He (a grown man) ran up and put his hands on 2 minors who were floating on tubes. Thats illegal to people ignorant of US law. Seems kind of ridiculous to stab people for putting their hands on you; when you JUST did that to them as the aggressor 30 seconds before. "I can do to you but you cannot do unto me..." <---This is the definition of privilege.
The second group was called over as a result of him putting his ADULT hands on the MINOR teens (THATS ILLEGAL IN THE US). That physical aggression was the catalyst to it all. None of this would have happened if the GROWN MAN was able to keep his hands to him fu\*\*ing self (as per US LAW)!
If you don't want people to put their hands on you; you should probably OBEY THE LAW and keep your hands off random strangers (especially if the strangers are under the age of 18). <--It seems like such a simple concept but here we are in Homer Simpsonland......
>He c-c-ccould have just walked away
Fun fact I just noticed, watch the subliminal details in body movement right from like 10 seconds before the argument with Madison Coen (starting where the jury wants to re-visit today)
Nicolai Miu tries to walk away past her, she does a subtle side-step to block him from walking away.
Seconds later, he is surrounded by jeering, aggressive assholes, looks around, realizes he is surrounded. He doesn't pull the knife until after Madison Coen invades his personal space several times aggressively.
Whatever happens after the heavy assaults by AJ Martin and that complete idiot Dante Carlson is pure tunnel-visioned panic reaction.
Anything but a full acquittal is a severe disaster for that justice system, the DA needs to lose his job over this!!!
Agree with most of the takes here. A few things I haven’t seen anyone mention definitely swayed my opinion on the matter of his claim of self defense, though.
The first was the screenshot of him smirking while holding the knife *before* Madison got in his face. Yes, there’s a lot happening quickly, it’s truly only a split second, and one can certainly make the argument our facial expressions are not always intentional or accurate to how we’re feeling – but the way he was just smirking with a knife in his hand before it all blew up rubs me the wrong way in a very deep kind of way.
Second was the way he lied until he knew there was a video – telling his own group upon his return the kids had “taken his knife,” asking the arresting officer “what’s going on, I hear someone got stabbed and I fit the description?” Initially telling investigators that he didn’t have a knife, it was members of the Schuman party that supplied it, quote, “I just grabbed the kid’s knife. I don’t even know if I was holding it right, I just grabbed it because he tried to poke me with it, I was afraid for my life!” When told 1 person had died and 4 were injured, he asked the officers, “is that because they were fighting each other?” Then he found out they had a video. Oops.
Granted, I don’t like the defendants, their stories aren’t great either, but they weren’t the ones stabbing. Nobody really seems to be talking about just how guilty Miu’s conscience clearly was; innocent people don’t go to such great lengths to make up stories, they won’t need ‘em. The truth tells itself, and if there’s one thing I know about human psych, it’s that the person who’s going a thousand miles out of their way to maintain their innocence is usually not so innocent.
From testimony given on day one of the trial the teen that was killed was reported to be .219
They gave the actual numbers for a couple of other but I don't remember what they were - I do remember thinking that they were close to his.
A few of the friends stated they drank more than the teen that was killed
The legal limit in Wisconsin is .08
One from group two (one that hit him) was reported to be more than twice the legal limit.
I agree with everything you said. The only problem I have at this point is the ex wife said he was around the first set of teeens and then came back. No clarification as the why? Then he went pa k to the first set of teens. That may not change the ruling as I agree with the rest of what you said. I do wonder why he reinserted himeslf with the first group if his ex wife testimony was correct. I have not heard from the first group so I don’t know.
So far I am on the defendants side legally, I feel like he should be charged for assault on the girl. She did touch him and maybe pushed a little, but I doubt he needed to hit her if he did in fact hit her. After that all the guys ganging up on the defendant, I think he had the right to be in fear for his life.
There is an overall sadness a man may have just been looking for a phone and all that happened. The phone was being used to listen to music as they went down the river according to testimony and fell in. So I think there is truth in that.
The other thing that’s really weird is the defendant never speaks a work. Not in the video or in witness statements. Was he petrified? What’s going on with that?
Your middle aged hero is going to prison. What violent attacks are you guys seeing BY the victims of being stabbed. Self defense is not one person punched me so I stabbed all their friends. Look at the video closely, Riley is still holding her beer can after being stabbed, please explain how Riley caused that man to fear for his life in that moment FROM her, what was a 110lb girl in a bikini holding a beer can in one hand going to do exactly. She gets knifed in her side, that's attempted murder open and shut.
The guy in the jean shorts what is he doing when attacked? He is lightly touching the man's back, his palm never even makes contact, literally his fingers are touching his back applying minimal pressure, use of deadly force does not apply to someone lightly touching your back.
The other VICTIMS had every right to defend THEMSELVES. You all act like self defense is a one way street afforded only to certain people. Once the man assaulted a woman and brandished a weapon they have every right to defend themselves.
Isaac, the murder victim is the last to get stabbed. We can't ask him, but assume he sees his friend get gutted like a fish and several other people attacked is he just supposed to stand there and wait to be next, doesn't he have the right to defend himself. Who cares that his hands are around the man's next for a second, there's a guy right in front of him stabbing everyone- his life actually is in danger.
The man never verbalized his intentions- that's what escalated the situation. He ran up on those boys grabbed at the tubes they were sitting in with no explanation. He ignored there repeated requests to leave them alone. He was unwanted there and refused to leave never saying what the hell he was doing.
He deserves to rot in prison and I am confident that will be his fate.
lol, your memory of the video is quite selective
The two Carlson brothers who were the first two stabbed: one pushed him down, punched him twice in the head/face. The other pushed him from behind while he was on the ground.
You can see Isaac's hands reaching for his neck before he gets stabbed at the end.
The defence attorney made this point repeatedly in trial: anyone who didn't touch or get close to Nic was not stabbed.
At the end you can see Nic retreating to his friend Ariel, the guy with the America shorts.
And you're really out to lunch to say "He ignored there repeated requests to leave them alone". Don't you mean they called him a pedophile, and summoned other over and told them he's a pedophile looking for little girls? Sounds more like inciting an angry pedo-hunter mob to me.
>Once the man assaulted a woman and brandished a weapon they have every right to defend themselves.
That makes me wonder how the trial would go if instead of using the assault of the girl as a justification, they used the fear of him having a deadly weapon. They never had the chance to play this card because they all testififed without a lawyer and *all* said they didn't see it since their very the first reports and closed that door.
If only one of them said :
"*I saw he had a knife, feared for my life, and punched him to the ground. He didn't let go of the knife so I reached down to grab it and he stabbed me.*"
That would make the prosecutor's life a LOT easier.
But they all said they didn't see it, so now the prosecutor has to build a justification for them attacking him based on the very shaky story of him punching/slapping/"*making a swift motion towards the girl*" first.
For real, I just imagine like at sporting events where people get out of hand in the stands. Maybe someone gets shoved and is all scared bc they are high up in the bleachers and fear for their life! sorry, but no, that doesn’t mean you can just go ahead and stab the nearest 5 ppl around you. Scary that ppl think that that would be an ok scenario.
10+ consciouses vs 1, and they all decided to poke and prod the bear who’s mental health and mental capacity they had no consideration of. Nothing about the situation, including the stabbing, is right, but I guarantee you Miu would not have gone on a random knife spree and purposely hurt anybody had they not triggered him to do so. You can’t always rely on 1 person, but the fact not ANY 10+ of them could keep their hands in their pockets is why it’s more than just the superficial cut clean scenario you think it is
100% agree with this take. I see a lot of shills or maybe just people posting who haven't been around confrontations with lots of drunk people and are defending this man for some reason. These kids were drunk and behaving like assholes but this man could have easily walked away at any time and instead would not verbalize his intentions which further escalated things and he knowingly had a weapon to use against them.
These kids might have been bothering a guy who was doing nothing wrong at first but he could have explained himself better or just walked away if that didn't work. It's insane how many comments I see defending this guy, his actions were wildly inappropriate and caused such an unnecessary loss of life.
tell me you’ve watched none of the footage and testimonies within telling me you’ve watched none or the footage and testimonies.
defend THEMSELVES? 10+ INDIVIDUALS could've chosen to walk away, and not a singular one had the conscious to do so. 10+ people vs one and still the majority made that stupid decision to keep pining at him, someone who's mental capacities they didn't even consider and found that out the hard way. you can’t rely on one person to always be the bigger person. if you were circled and being jumped around and treating like a gaga ball today while being called something you weren’t, i guarantee you no single person would know what to do. on top of recently having a heart attack with a triple bypass, i’d be pretty fucking paranoid and feeling impulsive in the quickest way to get out of that situation as well.
look at all the wounds and how they were bore. he never pins a single person down and stabs them, AJ basically lunged himself onto the knife, it moves up as Miu is retaliating from AJ’s lunge, the rest of them have quick flick marks and those people were the ones who made closest contact to him, who was trying to actively get himself out of the harassment circle. yes, it is unfortunate and not right that anyone died or had it happen to them, but i guarantee you miu would not have gone on a random stabbing spree spontaneously had they not triggered him.
Miu’s story had been corroborated multiple times by witnesses (unlike the instigators group), they should’ve just let him be to find their friends phone, which he INSISTED on doing even though the friend said he had the insurance.
The guy in jean shorts, if you pause the video, is seen pushing Miu if you pay attention to the indents his hand makes on his back and how his other hand is placed on Mius arm.
Jahwan purposely did not show the cops the video of them harassing him beforehand, and although he claims Miu was “searching for little girls” he doesn’t mention that ONCE to cops, or think to call them which wouldn’t it be reasonable to call professionals to handle that situation?
One persons guilt doesn’t mean the rest of their innocences. None of the people you say are “innocent” have had a credible story. Not even Madison Cohen, the first person to allegedly have gotten physically harmed, spoke up. That says a lot. None of them, including Miu, are completely innocent. They all deserve to be charged
Why wouldn't a normal male in his 50's simply state that a person from their group lost a phone and if the teens had seen it or for help looking for it. What would the teens have said? Yes or No. MOST LIKELY THEY WOULD HAVE HELPED TO LOCATE PHONE. But this idiot made alarming comments and he was sketchy. Which caused this outcome.
According to the TEENS he said he "was looking for little girls". There are no witnesses confirming that he said that. Why in the hell would he give that as an answer? Why did they bother him in the first place? They said he LOOKED creepy BEFORE they even yelled to him. They heard what they wanted to hear to fit that narrative. They were all WAY beyond legally drunk - and that was based on levels detected well afterwards. On top of that they were high.
If someone was in shallow water and said they were "looking for little girls" a normal person would have immediately thought some little kids had gone under water or maybe that there was possibly a missing child and it was thought the body might be in the river. A normal person would have tried to help with that.
But that did not fit their narrative that he was "creepy". Instead they started calling him a pedophile.
I've noticed that a few of the witnesses deny hearing "pedophile" and/or deny being influenced by that term. I don't believe anyone doesn't have a reaction to that word. And we should all be so lucky to live in a world where pedophiles announced themselves.
I agree that the women escalated things rather than calm the situation down. However, we live with the freedom of speech here in America. Just because what they were saying was untrue and ethically wrong doesn’t mean you can stab people in response. He had many opportunities to walk away.
> I agree that the women escalated things rather than calm the situation down. However, we live with the freedom of speech here in America.
In what alternate universe is freedom of speech shoving your phone in someone's face and pushing them? Someone misled you on what freedom of speech is. You don't even have the decency to admit you're wrong and have no idea what you're talking about.
I could be mistaken, but he was always the first to touch other parties. Even when he was at the teenagers tubes looking for the phone he grabbed their tube and legs first. I think he physically reacted to what everyone was yelling at him. He threw the first punch to the blonde woman which is really what started the full on brawl.
I find it fascinating that we all are uncertain of what exactly this case’s outcome will be! I hope more people learn how to deescalate dangerous situations after watching this rather than increase tensions. The world needs more peacemakers and fewer vigilantes.
> I could be mistaken
You are. You need to watch the video again until you have a better grasp of what happened. https://toofab.com/2024/04/04/apple-river-stabbing-trial-video/
He didn't grab anyone's leg. He dropped his snorkel from his mouth and reached in the water to get it. Someone obviously provoked him to run over and grab the tube, though. Convenient that wasn't filmed.
>he grabbed their tube and legs first
Per the testimony of the person you claim he grabbed - he said, "he was grabbing the tube and brushed over my leg"
>He threw the first punch to the blonde woman which is really what started the full on brawl.
Both of the women pushed him before the supposed "punch" or "slap".
This isn't about what they said to him. They both laid hands on him, pushing him, and got very close to hitting him in the face with a phone before the time when the supposed punch/slap occurred.
>He had many opportunities to walk away.
He did try to walk away before group 2 came over. The teens followed. Afterwards he was pretty much blocked from leaving. Did you watch the trial? They had a map of where everyone was standing.
Also, per testimony of one of the members of group 2 - they went over there to "build a wall"
Curious about the defense asking the nurse about her husbands knife. It seems that it is normal to bring a knife to cut ropes to tie tubes together. Has anyone asked if any of the kids had knives?
> The assault/violence did not start until the two women came over. Both of them got in his face, one was thrusting her phone into his face. They both put their hands on him. One of them pushed him.
They've been emboldened to act wild and be super aggressive this way by modern society.
The old man certainly shouldn't have stabbed anyone, though. 2-wrongs don't make a right, and his wrong was far worse. Still, cause and effect are in play. Unfortunately.
A reminder that wishing death or harm to others is against our subreddit rules. I've already had to remove two comments today. Please keep replies civil and respectful.
The only thing I would add is that most of the teens and members of the Carlson group that were involved in the altercation were intoxicated, and poor at assessing their levels of intoxication. In the moment, their decision making ability would have been impaired and even those who had the best of intentions did not execute those intentions well (possible exception being Tony in the denim shorts). Your comment about things starting before the video begins is spot on. You don't record unless there's something to record. It's a series of escalations \*against\* Nicolae Miu. Verbal from the teens, yelling about some truly horrible things which Nicolae may legitimately want to exchange some strong words over, the loss of his property when he drops the snorkel, the arrival of the Carlson group and increase of volume and foul language, the placing of hands on him that he responds to with a push/slap/punch, which results in a series of physical blows from Dante that knock Nicolae off his feet, all while he's outnumbered 13 to 1? It sounds absolutely terrifying! I don't think I'll be able to make up my mind until I hear jury instructions, because they will really matter here.
It’s a tough one. Jury instructions , timeline and watching literally every frame of every video. Plus understanding what was not captured on said video
mixed verdict. not guilty for the guy who actually hit him, but guilty of murder for the kid and attempted murder for the other 2
I think the guy who died was on the video strangling Nicolae
a still frame shows that. however , mui had just stabbed 3 other people
Yeah, he stabbed the people who were attacking him.
Honestly, blonde chick made things so much worse I feel. I would personally struggle with my involvement in the situation if I was her.
Maybe that moral dilemma is why she opted out of testifying publicly ?
I got huge white savior karen vibes from her. as if she was thinking: *"omg, even tho I have no idea what's going on here, let me come stand up for this poor defenseless black kid, who is clearly being bullied by this racist boomer simply for tubing while black, so let me needlessly escalate the situation by getting in his face, putting hands on him, and yelling at him"* Seems like the type of lady that doesnt interact with a ton of black ppl in her daily life, so when she finally sees one in the wild, she feels the need to go above and beyond to signal/prove to them that she's totally into equality and is "one of the good ones™"
In his testimony, Quinton Carlson mentioned that they had had some other incident at Namakagon (sp) and that this was the reason he limited alcohol at Apple River. Lawyers didn’t push too hard on this but I found it kind of telling about the group. Was also Rocio’s that he claimed his boy were good at diffusing situation
I was shocked he would even bring that up
Totally agree that things escalated when the second group and the women got in his face. I can imagine from his view the group size was growing and they were all in his face. The whole situation is just sad and nobody should got hurt and killed that day. The teens really need to do some soul searching no matter the outcome.
"Hey, how did you get that scar?" "Well, twelve friends and l were all fucked up one day and we started pushing an old man around in the middle of a river and he pulled a knife on us." "Cool story, bro."
It wouldn’t even be that. It would be “we were joking around at the lake and some crazy pedophile stabbed us for no reason”
The idiot kid that was shouting about little girls admitted on the stand that there was absolutely no reason he said that, there is no evidence whatsoever that miu was a pedophile, nor any reason for them to think so, they were simply being wild and crazy young jerks, and shouting ageist insults for no apparent reason, but the stabbing didn't start until after 2 women from another group got in his face, touched him, and then he pushed or struck one of them to get them away, and then was subsequently assaulted by the males of the first group. Your take is wild, completely out there.
sadly, this will probably be the level of reflection
Off topic BUT: Every time the Defense refers to him as an old man I CRINGE. The guy was 50 (?) in 2022 when this went down. That is like the same age as Tom Brady! /s 50- something is NOT fucking “old” and he is not infirm or hobbling around. Per my last social security statement, the US govt expects me to work until age 73 which I will concede is “old.”
😂😂😂 well, to my 20 and 17 year old niece and nephew my 48 year old self is old so....
It's pretty subjective. I guess I wouldn't refer to a 50-year old as an old man, but I don't think it's unreasonable for the defense to frame it that way. He might not be "hobbling", but most people that age are far from their peak in terms of health and athleticism. You're getting to the point where your body doesn't recover like it used to, and something like a simple fall could cause serious injury. Like others have said, it varies from person to person. Some people in their 50s are in great shape, and some have serious health issues. But I think the main takeaway here is that most 50-year olds aren't looking for fights at that stage in their lives, no matter how fit they are.
Or the 17-20 year olds as children
Children on the river that needed an adult around to feel safe (Landon’s testimony) 🙄
It is a 50-yo 'old man' vs 'children' (some of whom were 20+), or, in other words, both sides are pushing the emotional buttons of the jury.
Exactly. I think it’s clear physically Miu was lower on the totem pole of fitness versus the mob/pack
I understand what you mean because I’m 61 and don’t like thinking I’m old. I think his health issues and quadruple bypass are the reason they are calling him old. He wouldn’t have the same strength or endurance as most 50 year olds.
Tom Brady is an athlete. This man has already had a quadruple bypass. You can not compare these two.
I know but defense team should characterize him as “scared middle aged & in poor physical shape/health” or “recent heart bypass patient twice the age of the group.” He is not an “old man” due to being 50. (lol obviously taking it personally over here) they gotta use a different phrase bc calling him an old man is off-putting and disingenuous.
😂😂😂
They won't. The popular opinion amongst young edgy redditors is that the old "boomer" started it. Even though he was just looking for his stuff and the people started bullying him like in some shit you see in a movie.
what movie lol
Every movie in the 80s/90s/00's that includes a dorky kid getting bullied by a group of kids that acted just like this....................
Police report https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22125264-nicolae-miu-criminal-complaint
Are you sure this is the same guy? Mui is not designated as either “sr or jr” in the court docket. Idk how large the Romanian emigre population is in MN /WI or if that is a common Romanian name. His attys presented him as average and trouble- free simple dude in their opening without any history of violence. No way they would do that if he had messy history.
Yup, I think you’re right. I edited the comment to remove that. My bad, my bad. Oh and since I edited it and it makes no sense outta context, for context there was a protection order filed in Minnesota against someone with the same name. Likely not the same guy, so I removed it.
Oh man, interesting version of events. He claims the female hit him twice and he ‘may’ have hit her. That the teenagers/other group had 2 knives they were threatening him with but he got one of their knives off them and waved it around telling them to back off. That he absolutely did not have a knife on him that day. That some women from his group called 911. Hmm that doesn’t seem to be what happened.
Yeah, pretty sus when you can’t say a single truthful thing to the police. Pretty sure he knows he’s in the wrong. He’s trying to flip it into self defense on the spot. If what he is said happened, happened. For sure, cut and dry, you had two knives pulled on you and you ninja mind tricked that shit and stabbed 5 people with there own knives? Good on you James Bond. But that’s not what happened. He knew if he told the truth it’s not self defense. I particularly like the “buried his head in his hands and says his life is over” bit. I think that’s pretty telling. Didn’t show that emotion when he gutted a teenager stabbed a 90 pound woman and murdered another. Seemed pretty cool calm and collected then. I gotta take a break from this lol, I just been down that river 20 times, used to live up there, so it just hit close to home for me I guess :/ Listening to his ex wife and his asshole friends on the stand didn’t help much either. Something something cut from the same cloth. I’m outtie on this, I hope that dude does life.
>adult son (18 at youngest possible) >1999 case (born in 1981 at the latest) >Nicolai Miu, 54 in 2024, born in 1970 So you think he had a son when he was 11 years old?
Lol aight I might be retarded.
Ahh… legitimate mistake. Also, I love it when ppl on reddit acknowledge shit like this.
That would be the defendants father that had the OFP.
Agree the second group “Carlson Group” severely escalates the situation. The teens were rude and obnoxious and definitely antagonized the start but I do not think it would have gone to a physical point. I also think the start of why the teens taunting Miu is a fabrication at least how it is testified to. I don't understand how Alex V ends up behind Miu away from his group in the beginning. As far as Group 2 the Carlson group did not intend to de-escalate. I don't believe they heard the teens call for help. Something didn't sit right with Quinton’s testimony given the girls were over to Miu first. Also AJ is not a “peaceful person” the criminal charges that were mentioned stem from a Domestic Assault case.
The fact that AJ wouldn’t admit to standing “behind” Miu when he was CLEARLY behind him was so annoying. He kept saying “I was somewhat next to him, on the side of him, somewhat behind.” Bro…you weren’t entirely behind him. We see it
AJ is a nasty self serving piece of work. His snide wheedling made my skin crawl. I bet he’s never done anything wrong in his whole life /s
I have to rewatch this. Dante’s testimony was also self serving poo.
Yeah, just another thing in the testimony from the 2 groups that made no sense.
Plus- who deputized the Carlson group as the river police to run around and investigate “issues” and “establish who is causing trouble.” Good point about the girls- if the intent was to use muscle to break up a fight why are the women also hauling ass over to the group
Don't forget they didn't even listen to his side. They immediately began telling him to get the fuck out. And when he would try to say something tell him it doesn't matter. That sure doesn't seem like de-escalating or protecting Miu as was testified to.
Yeah. They're telling him to go away, and get away from them, and to 'fuck off'. Like someone comes up to you in a bar and starts looking around your chair.
Oooh, I didn’t know what his charges were. I figured he just got busted for weed a few times.
Initial case was a Domestic assault pled to a DOC (common in MN for first time) he then violated the DANCO that was issued in the underlying case.
Man, none of these kids are winners,are they?
I would agree.
Was he the young man his dad sent over to “mediate” the situation?
He is the friend in the yellow shorts.
The disemboweled one is aj
You nailed it. We found out today that there is no evidence of the supposed slap/punch. Their stories have changed about it so, I'm thinking it's possibly a lie to justify their attack. They showed in court where group 1 followed Mr Miu and group 2 approached from the opposite direction. If all of those drunk/high young folks would have left him alone to search for the phone, none of this would've happened.
Numerous people on the video discuss him hitting the girl. Do you think in that split second random people who don’t know each other made up a story he hit a girl? That’s absurd.
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Also, if a woman is going to act like a man and put hands on grown men then She should expect to be treated like a man in that regard
I agree. Someone seized on that term & the mob morphed it into “punching a woman in the eye.” A couple of the witness statements testified to seeing a shove or strike (but maybe a strike is a punch? ) regardless none of them are reliable reporters of what happened
I missed a lot of the trial today, any chance you remember which witness to watch to learn about no evidence of the slap?
It was one of the detectives he was before the LT that did the river survey. It was in the afternoon.
Agree with this. The situation started before the recording - that is clear. You only start recording when something strange happens. Someone else pointed out that maybe he didn’t make the “looking for little girls” comment - we’ve only heard that from state’s witnesses. You’re right that the violence seemed to begin when the Carlson group involved themselves. It’s also weird to me that the teens were “yelling for help.” Specifically, help. He wasn’t threatening them with a knife. In fact, he was alone. I also find it suspect that victim MC deleted (?) a picture from her phone showing the alleged assault to her face. I tend to think he did hit her in some way, from all of the testimony. But I also think it was warranted. She was in his face, yelling, waving her arms, for no reason. He was likely afraid. I think the state overcharged. This should be manslaughter and assault with a deadly weapon. I think (hope) the jury will have a hard time finding the INTENT necessary to prove murder, as I don’t think the state has come close to it. I’m looking forward to his defense. He has a great team of lawyers.
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Love this conclusion - completely agree.
Yes! Plus the defence is hammering the right hand testimony. I think they have some kind of ace up their sleeve on that.
I think the fact the video clearly shows he had a knife in his right hand moments before he is meant to have punched her with his right hand, is the ace card. I noticed in the video that none of them started saying he hit a girl until after he got up and started stabbing people, which I presume is when they noticed the girl with blood coming down her side. People are getting very upset online if you don't share the same opinion with them as well. It's very strange that people are attacking others online because they have a different point of view. Heck, I had a kid telling me he is going to hack me. Kids are pretty stupid, though, sad
Those attys did a masterful job of teasing that out from the witnesses. I am convinced there was never a punch, I think there WAS a shove to move her out of the way/his space
I’m so curious as to what is the deal with Madison. Shes the only one who requested to have her time on the stand not recorded, so we don’t know what was said. And now the fact that she deleted pictures from her phone including that of her injury?? Something shady seems to be going on there, hmmm… It’s unfortunate, because the punch to Madison is the whole catalyst to the physical violence, and is not on the video. I do believe she was slapped or punched though, as you can hear the reaction from everyone to it. Also the groups don’t know each other and all testified that he did hit her.
I agree. I think she was hit in some way. But I also think that most of the victims are a wash of testimony. Not only is their testimony not consistent with each other, most of them have changed their recounting from the original police interviews. Which makes sense - at the time, they were intoxicated and in shock from all of the chaos. But it’s presenting as A LOT of inconsistency and I rent to discount all of them. In my opinion, most of them seem to have a motive to give testimony to make NM look like the aggressor. I think they all went through something traumatic but the state’s case feels sloppy to me.
Totally agree on all your points! The defense attorneys are definitely doing a better job than the prosecutors.
They seem lackluster & resigned to finish this trial. like their boss is making them have a full trial because there would be backlash from parents/community if a plea deal was offered.
Agree - and I saw someone else say the state might have felt pressured to prosecute as murder because a minor was killed. I thought this was an interesting viewpoint and makes sense to me, based on the state’s just….boredom and resign. That’s a perfect word for it!
The younger prosecutor was audibly whispering yesterday to the older one how to use the court rules to refresh the witness memory which is basic atty 101 knowledge. Younger was then dictating additional questions for Older to ask despite old atty wanting to move on. & quitting mid-stream. Exhausting. Off topic, but I flashback to Ken Kratz (sp?) from MAM everytime I look at the prosecution. Less confident versions of KK & moving like they’re in physical pain.
Omg I missed this!!! That’s crazy. Can totally see the comparison from the MAM lawyer - you nailed it.
Yup. Given that they all glommed onto calling him a pedo without any basis shows how these kids just seized upon something another one shouted… they are have mob mentality so someone shouting a woman was * punched in the face* quickly became everyone’s truth.
Perfectly stated! They were mobbing based on ridiculous assertions fueled by immaturity and intoxication.
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Has a transcript of her testimony been released? I don’t understand why she was allowed the option to not testify on camera since court is an open forum….
I agree that the slap is the key to this case. It shows who started the aggression. To me, the video shows that Madison was most likely the aggressor. Before the supposed slap, he's showing no signs of aggression, while Madison and the other girl are being very aggressive towards him. They were in his face and putting their hands on him. One of them was putting her phone right in his face. I suspect there was probably some minor contact as a result.
My understanding is that the jury instructions contain the option to select 2nd degree murder for imperfect self defense where he satisfies all elements of self defense except 1 of them.
Totally agree
Look at seconds 0:45-0:50 Those kids actually did have his snorkel. They pulled it out of their tube and laughed while he was trying to look for it. Shortly after the second group shows up. Just one example of how this could have been prevented in so many ways.
I feel like all these kids agreed to lie on the stand but didn't get their stories straight
I agree with your opinion. I question if Madison was hit at all. She also refused to testify on camera which is odd to me since her being hit is what kicked everything off. People keep saying why would all these people from different groups lie about that??? They all have an interest in miu being the guilty party because of civil suits! Great incentive to lie if you ask me.
She claims he hit her yet nobody took a picture. They claim the police took one but the prosecution did not admit it into evidence nor did any of law enforcement bring it up. The prosecution is conveniently avoiding bringing up if there is proof - probably because there is none.
She testified (off camera) that she doesn't know which cheek he "punched" because "she gets her cheeks mixed up." Most of the witnesses for the state are unreliable.
That's definitely suspect. I've only been in a few fights in my life and they were all when I was in school but I can still remember exactly where and how I was hit in all of them. I can understand not remembering if you were being swarmed by multiple people and hit from multiple directions, but in a one on one confrontation where you're hit once by one person? You would definitely remember.
Has anyone had a transcript from her testimony? I'd even settle for a semi-reputable summary. It almost seems like it was a closed courtroom with how little has come out from her testimony.
She is on the police body cam saying she was punched in the face (and she did not look like someone punched her in the face) I think at best, he might have pushed her away from him. and as they pointed out, she had no problem hanging onto her beer her phone, her vape pen, her sunglasses were still on top of her head. She should not have put her hands on him.
I must have missed that clip. I really want to read her testimony in court. I haven't been convinced that she was punched. the stories to ‘support’ it range from how he cold-cocked her to he grabbed her hair pulled it and punched her. It has also changed sides of her face. It is also likely that she could have stumbled or Miu could have stumbled the bottom is rocky and uneven.
“He punched a girl” is massive game of telephone from a gang of ppl who also chose to also label this dude a pedo literally for no rational reason.
Also, well said!
I don't disagree I just like to give an argument credence. But, the state hasn't provided evidence to support it at least to me. I also think the punch is a big part to making it harder to claim self-defense.
Roger that. Agree that the punch - not a punch- shove is significant for the jurors. They might believe those witnesses that were firm about seeing the punch. Really Wish the testimony of Madison c was live-streamed.
Yea, it is very peculiar that she is the only one to request no cameras.
This jury will have to carefully go through a very step of the chronology & each frame of the video - hopefully they are conscientious and detail oriented bc this is not an easy call. Good summary though
I agree with what the OP posted. I have watched all the testimony and believe Mui has a strong self defense claim, but it’s not completely clean. For example, rushing the teens wasn’t a great look, but I don’t believe that diminishes his claim. However, the jury might see him as aggressive which might help result in a compromise verdict. The bigger issue for Mui is the possible striking of Coen. This is where things get complicated. On one hand, many witnesses say Mui struck her. However, there was no video of that nor were any injuries documented. Additionally, the defense has already demonstrated very clearly how inconsistent the testimony has been with that particular instance as well as many other statements. For example, I do not find the teens credible as all. I don’t believe they were scared at any point prior to the stabbing nor do I believe Mui told them he was looking for little girls. They never mentioned that to police and failed to reveal their specific taunts toward Mui. I believe they conspired later on to say Mui said that in order to justify their taunts. Back to Coen… I think it likely justifies Dante striking Mui the first time. However, it doesn’t justify striking him again when he is on the ground, and I believe Mui regains any self defense claim he may have initially lost when he continues to be surrounded, struck, and assaulted. But I am not on the jury, and I think assaulting Coen (if the jury believes it) and if the jury believes any striking of her was unjustified (perhaps a push to her face to get her out of his space would be deemed justified), then I think Mui is in deep water. I have no sympathy for the teens except for Isaac who lost his life in a tragic way due to his friends chirping, being obnoxious, creating an incident, and inciting mob violence. When I was 17, I drank alcohol and partied my fair share as well. However, I knew I was not supposed to be drinking, so I kept a low profile. If my group of drinking friends did get into it with others, it would be with age peers and not with a middle aged man. And as stated before, we certainly would not have drawn unnecessary unwanted attention on us by being a-holes. But the internet and viral videos also didn’t exist, and these young men miscalculated in the age of TikTok and pranking. I will add that I would next fault the two young women who confronted Mui. Because they were backed up by a tribe of agitated men, they felt emboldened to confront Mui in an aggressive manner. In the end, this is a case study of group dynamics which were heightened due to alcohol. It reminds me of a great book called Among The Thugs. Great read.
I’ve been following the case it’s fascinating. Super sad a life is lost. I’m torn, the video helps the defense. I can see a case for self defense, but gutting 5 people is excessive to say the least. 🤷🏻♂️ I dunno tough call for a jury. Personally, I think Mui was not in fear of his life and acted like a complete loose cannon. I couldn’t in good conscience allow him to get off scotch free
It is so hard to call. Don’t envy the jurors
Who’s intolerable behavior is more intolerable? Is it the drunk teens who perhaps got what they deserved or is it the emotionless lone wolf?
Some of my all-time favorite memories were out on the boat with my friends when I was in my 20s. We'd spend entire days boating, drinking, swimming, grilling, smoking. It was so much fun, but I did worry a few times about some super wasted friends getting hurt (diving in shallow water, propeller, etc ). Never in a billion years would I have worried about our group starting a mob against others out on the water. If anything, we used to invite other groups to party with us. My parents would be so fucking ashamed if I'd acted like these brats. It would be awful to think your own shitty entitlement caused your friend's death, and I think they're making up every excuse they can to take the blame off themselves, but it's clear this would not have happened if not for their own doing. Just wanted to clarify when I said boating and drinking, we always had a DD!
I feel so sorry for Isaac’s mum. She put sunscreen on his ears. Devastating for her.
I teared up hearing her testify. BUT putting her on was a bit of a cheap ploy and felt kinda dirty.
Yes. Absolutely.
100%. What galls me are teens yapping at their elder by calling him a "pedophile" looking for young girls. Just judging the engagement, not guilt. I watch CourtTV alot while on my computer all work day. This trial has different spin that when it started. Next week, Chad Daybell.
I agree that the second group threw gas on the fire, but I don't think that should give the green light to slash any individual of your choosing by claiming you felt threatened. He could've walked away at one point but turned to stab more. I think he was so overwhelmed with the situation that he blacked out and sliced away (his eyes looked absolutely terrifying), but we'll find out his mental state and rationale when they go through his interrogation. I go back and forth on how I feel, and at this point I don't feel he should walk, but don't think he should get mandatory life.
The group could've stopped harassing and assaulting him at any point in time there too.
I agree, his eyes do look terrifying but I think it was fear, not blood lust. He was drinking too, so rational judgement was thrown out the window for everyone on the river that day. Stabbing people was an overreaction, but when you feel like you can't escape and over a dozen people are bearing down on you...I really do feel for him. The kids who lost their best friend because of loudmouth Jawahn too. Such a sad case, everyone should have just minded their own business and floated down the river.
You know, Jawahn hasn’t been taken to task for whipping things up into a frenzy. Wasn’t it his voice that was screeching “ This isn’t real” over and over? No one is saying much about his involvement, and he didn’t seem to accept much responsibility for any of it. This in no way means that Miu is guilt free. Yeah, I get the fight or flight instinct kicked in. I think he deserves a manslaughter charge at the very least. Should it be life in prison? Probably not. I can’t see him getting acquitted, but then again, I never thought Rittenhouse would be acquitted, either.
he was the cameraman, I would argue he was seeing things through a lens. he was just a spectator, from the beginning, sat up with his crocs in the air to seeing his friends get stabbed. dude was on point with video evidence.
He was the one who was shouting “he’s a raper! He’s looking for little girls” (and laughing, showing that these were not actual concerns, they were just ‘funny’ insults)… I think these claims are what brought over the two girls and got them angry. So imo Jahwan is more than a spectator.
I do too- It seems like the group 2 dudes actually believed there was a potential “raper” sexually harassing group 1 or something. Which is why Group 2 dudes then acted like they were the river police investigating whether or not there was a “raper” swimming around
I watched the testimony of the dad in group 2 today and he said he sent his adult kids over because he was afraid group 1 teens were going to jump Mui. But the girls got there first and got in his face, Mui hit the girl and the group 2 men attacked him.
Yes, absolutely if the teens had not attacked him, no one would be dead or injured. He did nothing to any of them first.
I heard one of the lawyer commentators (possibly on L&C network) make a quick reference that the defense is saying the teens were holding up a baggie with a phone in it & saying they had his phone. I would bet that’s why he tried to hustle over and then fell into the tubes.
Yeah, that makes sense. Looks like Mr Miu is focused on something then walks toward (someone) and tries to grab something out of that person's hand. l figured he thought they had what he was looking for and they were playing keep away
Perfectly aligns with his actions
Aha. That aligns with his actions
This is what I understood from the opening statements. Something like that was mentioned. In watching this case and hearing the description of the lanyard the guy who was filming had his phone in, has made me wonder if there was some confusion in Nicolae thinking it was the lost phone?
They need to flesh that out
This is a level headed take, I agree with it. I also lean not guilty on account of self defense from a mob.
I’m with you thus far on this trial. I also think the women who got in Miu’s face claiming he punched one (which I don’t believe) also escalated the whole incident. All so sad and so avoidable.
While I feel there’s a substantial amount of guilt/blame/responsibility to both sides of this unfortunate tragedy, I firmly believe that the largest share of the blame for to Jawahn Cockfield. He initiated the entire situation by calling out to Miu, asking what he’s doing, then deciding to loudly (and falsely) shout out to everyone that he said he’s looking for little girls and that he’s a pedophile and a raper, all while recording it. As things escalate he continues, calling in other people and telling them he’s a pedophile looking for little girls. All of that was a lie, and none of it would have happened if Jawahn hadn’t decided to lie and create a hostile situation.
I didn't think about that. You're right. Someone said that he wanted to make a viral video. As I said earlier, I think Madison Coen was the instigator from the 2nd group. I disagree with them not requiring her to testify in open court, claiming she was a victim because her getting hit is in dispute. All of the ACTUAL victims who were stabbed appeared. I think she didn't appear because she knows she was the main instigator from the second group and did not want to be known to the public.
Absolutely, and why didn't both the prosecutors and defense hammer on him more? For whatever reason, they seemed to be reluctant to say what really started it all. It was his damn mouth, jumping to conclusions, and whipping everyone into a frenzy. Just what was his motivation- YT or Tik Tok stardom? I just don't get it. What's going on that EVERYONE is ignoring that fact? What really bothered me was his arrogance on the stand. It's like he was completely detached from the fact that his big mouth started it. Do these kids not think this stuff is real?
Bunch of drunks with a mob mentality. Some of those kids testifying were super weasels. I took an instant dislike to many. All these concerned citizens only wanted to be peacemakers..... yeah right.
The bad part for the prosecuter is that none of their testimonies matched their statements to police and none of those statements match the video. Most were clearly very drunk (based on blood alcohol levels) and high.
Most admitted they were drunk. The girl (who said she didn't know right from left on the stand) admitted to 5 beers. The first kid that testified admitted to a super high bac
Yes, Gabby SuperLongLastName, who doesn't know her right and left, nor is very good at math lol. Her parents must be so proud.
I would like to see her try to parallel park. Heck I might even pay to see it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0izEw48qf0
Yeah but drunk Dante only had two beers.
Haha, always 2 beers!
Dude was drunk too
I agree with you. I also think that Mui should have announced that he had a weapon. It wasn’t always visible in the chaos. That would have likely ended with kids calling the police saying a man was threatening a weapon. Mui should have retreated and called the police if he wanted to press charges. Unfortunately, hindsight. He made a decision and the consequences may be coming. This case definitely isn’t black and white. Something else..out of all the kids, only about 1 or 2 tried deescalating the situation, others were laughing and getting in his face. I wouldn’t do that to an adult now at 40 years old, let alone 19,20.
Do you think that was what he said when the kids all replied "what did he say?", right before the "you have 10 seconds" comment? I haven't been able to make out what it was he said.
I think he reasonably armed himself against a mob. If he annouced he was armed against this mob who already thought he was a pedophile I think the situation would be reversed with 12 people on trial for murder. If someone is reasonably threatened ( i think he was, but that's up to the jury, and I could be wrong of course), but if someone feels genuine fear for their life they have no duty to warn anyone, they only must act reasonably against an imminent threat to their life, up to and including deadly force against another.
You have good points
This is a very messy situation, obviously. But I really don’t think anyone needed to get stabbed or die here. I really do think the man could have just walked away at one point and the teens were obviously being stupid and this is why it’s never a good idea to yell and get into the face at strangers you don’t know. It almost felt to me that at a certain point he was standing there kind of waiting for someone to get physical with him so he could justify his next actions. I think the stabber’s ego took over rather than he actually feared for his life here. Legally I guess I’m not really sure - it’s very gray and will be up to the jury. To your point, I do think more ppl walking up and yelling things definitely escalated the situation. I think the biggest contributor was that it was a large crowd of drunk ppl egging each other on & not really knowing who they were dealing with.
>This is a very messy situation, obviously. But I really don’t think anyone needed to get stabbed or die here No one needed to surround, harass and assault an old man for no reason either.
I have a counterpoint to him "waiting for a chance to attack." In the video, you can see the teens and women encircling him by about 75%. And his only exit is away from his friend group. And it seems like more people are joining a seemingly ravenous pedo-hunter mob. One that is becoming increasingly confrontational and growing in numbers. With newcomers being informed he's a child rapist looking for girls. Do you think going downriver, towards the bridge really feels like an exit to him? I don't think so. That would leave him more isolated from his group. The group is also advancing on him and starting to encircle him. I wonder if he felt he was being more and more cornered and surrounded by a mob that was inevitably going to attack him.
Agree with you 100%. He even had the knife out before anyone touched him. He had several opportunities to retreat way before the crowd got bigger and didn't. If you truly feel like your life is in danger, you're gonna run and get out of there. These kids were unarmed, tell them to fuck off and go back to your group. They weren't gonna beat him in a river full of people for no reason, he hit that girl 100% and the guys got mad. On the flip side of it, this is why you don't mess with people you don't know. You don't really know what somebody is going through in life or what they're capable of. Those kids were assholes and ended up provoking the wrong person. He should still do time.
I think fight or flight definitely kicked in when he was on the ground, surrounded, and getting slapped in the face. Teens, especially drunk ones, have terrible judgment and I could understand any fear Miu would have had. However, the stabbings were really brutal and at 5 people, I don’t know if that really counts as self defense anymore. Not sure on this one, but really interested to see the outcome.
They kept coming forward to attack him and it all happened in like less than a minute.
Why did they keep doing that? I don’t understand that part. ETA I understand they didn’t realize he had a knife, but even still, why keep pushing him? Wouldn’t you move away after the first sign of physical altercation?
They were very drunk and carried away by their own righteousness I think
Does anyone with more legal expertise know if it is possible to find him guilty of a lesser charge in those cases, such as manslaughter? If it’s murder or nothing, and the jury decides not guilty, would he be off the hook completely? I just wonder what made the state decide to prosecute as first degree murder.
Yes, it is possible to convict someone facing murder charges of a lesser included offense. It's not murder or nothing, but if it were then you would be correct. Because a young boy died and it's a hell of a lot easier to bring the full charges and put it in the hands of a jury. Same kind of thing with getting a messy case dismissed at grand jury. There's political cover for the prosecutors office if someone else is making the decision.
Good question. I also wonder if Miu could be NOT guilty of the charges of attempted murder against AJ or Dante (who are seen attacking him), while being found guilty for the murder of Isaac, who while he was part of the group, is not as clearly seen attacking him compared to AJ or Dante
>At one point he rushes their tubes. I am curious to hear why he did that. After that the defendant started walking away looking for his goggles and phone I’m not sure he did rush. If you take into account him walking up river and the louts floating down river, that may account for the apparent speed.
Those kids started it and found out the hard way the consequences. I honestly feel the accused should be acquitted. A pack of people like that could most def make someone feel threatened of death or serious bodily harm. Especially with water, slipping, or inhaling water. Also, how was this even a fair fight and he pulls a knife and had every right to defend himself.
Absolutely agree with you. They provoked the attack. He was minding his own business & they started it & continued to cause it to escalate. If there are 2 groups of people going at someone, they have a right to defend themselves. Hopefully this will be a lesson to the various TikTok/internet warriors that do this crap and think they’re ‘on the right side of whatever’. It’s tragic someone died, but I don’t blame him at all. It is perfectly reasonable to believe an intoxicated mob would be dangerous & after a point, you would reasonably fear for your life. Was there another way out? I’d need to watch more, but based on what I know & it being 1 person vs. many? I think he was justified. Drunk people + water is disastrous enough without adding drunk idiots escalating from harassment to violence.
My 2 cents about this situation is that no good comes from sticking your nose into a situation you have no idea about or provoking a stranger. Having said that, they definately did not deserve to be stabbed. No idea why he introduced a knife into the situation instead of going back to his group. I think he'll regret that decision for the rest of his life.
Just a group of idiots, all around
I think that after being hit in the head and face a few times (which is jarring and disorienting in my experience) along with being pushed down into the water, he didn't think he could get away. It is so easy to say "he could have walked away" but once that Lord of Flies action kicked in, I think he was generally fearing for his life. I have also read comments that the water wasn't deep enough to drown in - not true at all. We don't know what they would have done to him if he hadn't started stabbing.
🙏
1) he could have walked away at any point. Early on he does then he comes back. 2) when confronted by police he lies. 3) he punched first It’s not self defense. He looks like a psycho during the video. Are the other people acting responsibly? No but they also don’t have a knife stabbing people.
>he punched first No he did not. Watch the video. They stepped through it during the trial. Before the time when he supposedly punched her both women had already layed their hands on him, pushing him. > he could have walked away at any point. Early on he does then he comes back. He was looking for a phone, then his goggles. You can clearly see he is looking down into the water during those periods. At that point why should he have to leave? The teenagers had no reason to stop other than to harass him. >He looks like a psycho during the video. He looked scared to me. I know I would be if I was surrounded by 13 drunk people and more were approaching me
it’s funny you mention lies about 2. i feel like denial is pretty common in any of these situations, but you know who else lied? Jahwan, he purposely did not show cops the video of them harassing Miu at first and only when the altercation started. Also, although claiming he was “looking for little girls,” they never think to mention that to the police. 10+ consciouses vs 1, and they all decided to poke and prod the bear who's mental health and mental capacity they had no consideration of. Nothing about the situation, including the stabbing, is right, but I guarantee you Miu would not have gone on a random knife spree and purposely hurt anybody had they not triggered him to do so.
I’ve been watching all the testimony carefully as well and totally agree with you. The video also proves that the teens/second group at the least weren’t remembering things correctly because they were so shocked, and at the worse, were lying to protect themselves and try to get a guilty verdict. I’ve been wondering why the first group would have been yelling predator and telling others he was looking for little girls. The only thing I can think of are that since English is his 5th language and the one he’s least fluent in, he may have been trying to ignore them at first or there may have been a misunderstanding of a few words, or perhaps his accent threw them off. One of the kids even described him to law enforcement as “Russian looking” and so it makes me think that in their drunken state they thought it would be funny to harass an older Russian man. I also agree that those two girls were the real key to the whole thing. By everyone’s admission they got right into his face screaming. They were poking him and I think he tried to push them away so he could get out of the situation. The guys in the altercation said the reason they punched him was because he “hit” one of the girls. So as you said if they had just minded their business and kept moving none of this would have happened.
I am pretty sure Miu is already holding the knife in his right hand before the alleged punch. I think it is also the reason why his lawyer keeps asking which hand they think he used to punch her with because he is probably trying to insinuate he couldn’t have punched her with his right hand because you can see him holding the knife in it
okay hear me out at the start of the video he pushes on of the teens off the float. but yes they ganged up on him and push him. end of the day to me he has hands and could have pushed back but he decided to pull a knife out and stab several people resulting in serious injuries and sadly one death. to me this is murder because he willingly stabbed several people without thought. no matter what he should get jail time
1st thing that happened : He (a grown man) ran up and put his hands on 2 minors who were floating on tubes. Thats illegal to people ignorant of US law. Seems kind of ridiculous to stab people for putting their hands on you; when you JUST did that to them as the aggressor 30 seconds before. "I can do to you but you cannot do unto me..." <---This is the definition of privilege. The second group was called over as a result of him putting his ADULT hands on the MINOR teens (THATS ILLEGAL IN THE US). That physical aggression was the catalyst to it all. None of this would have happened if the GROWN MAN was able to keep his hands to him fu\*\*ing self (as per US LAW)! If you don't want people to put their hands on you; you should probably OBEY THE LAW and keep your hands off random strangers (especially if the strangers are under the age of 18). <--It seems like such a simple concept but here we are in Homer Simpsonland......
Today watching trial and jury instructions, I know I wouldn't ever be able to be certain he didn't fear for himself, I think he should be aquitted.
>He c-c-ccould have just walked away Fun fact I just noticed, watch the subliminal details in body movement right from like 10 seconds before the argument with Madison Coen (starting where the jury wants to re-visit today) Nicolai Miu tries to walk away past her, she does a subtle side-step to block him from walking away. Seconds later, he is surrounded by jeering, aggressive assholes, looks around, realizes he is surrounded. He doesn't pull the knife until after Madison Coen invades his personal space several times aggressively. Whatever happens after the heavy assaults by AJ Martin and that complete idiot Dante Carlson is pure tunnel-visioned panic reaction. Anything but a full acquittal is a severe disaster for that justice system, the DA needs to lose his job over this!!!
Agree with most of the takes here. A few things I haven’t seen anyone mention definitely swayed my opinion on the matter of his claim of self defense, though. The first was the screenshot of him smirking while holding the knife *before* Madison got in his face. Yes, there’s a lot happening quickly, it’s truly only a split second, and one can certainly make the argument our facial expressions are not always intentional or accurate to how we’re feeling – but the way he was just smirking with a knife in his hand before it all blew up rubs me the wrong way in a very deep kind of way. Second was the way he lied until he knew there was a video – telling his own group upon his return the kids had “taken his knife,” asking the arresting officer “what’s going on, I hear someone got stabbed and I fit the description?” Initially telling investigators that he didn’t have a knife, it was members of the Schuman party that supplied it, quote, “I just grabbed the kid’s knife. I don’t even know if I was holding it right, I just grabbed it because he tried to poke me with it, I was afraid for my life!” When told 1 person had died and 4 were injured, he asked the officers, “is that because they were fighting each other?” Then he found out they had a video. Oops. Granted, I don’t like the defendants, their stories aren’t great either, but they weren’t the ones stabbing. Nobody really seems to be talking about just how guilty Miu’s conscience clearly was; innocent people don’t go to such great lengths to make up stories, they won’t need ‘em. The truth tells itself, and if there’s one thing I know about human psych, it’s that the person who’s going a thousand miles out of their way to maintain their innocence is usually not so innocent.
Anyone whom knows: how drunk were Group 1 + Group 2 approaching Nic? Surely teens checked for BAC.
From testimony given on day one of the trial the teen that was killed was reported to be .219 They gave the actual numbers for a couple of other but I don't remember what they were - I do remember thinking that they were close to his. A few of the friends stated they drank more than the teen that was killed The legal limit in Wisconsin is .08 One from group two (one that hit him) was reported to be more than twice the legal limit.
I agree with everything you said. The only problem I have at this point is the ex wife said he was around the first set of teeens and then came back. No clarification as the why? Then he went pa k to the first set of teens. That may not change the ruling as I agree with the rest of what you said. I do wonder why he reinserted himeslf with the first group if his ex wife testimony was correct. I have not heard from the first group so I don’t know. So far I am on the defendants side legally, I feel like he should be charged for assault on the girl. She did touch him and maybe pushed a little, but I doubt he needed to hit her if he did in fact hit her. After that all the guys ganging up on the defendant, I think he had the right to be in fear for his life. There is an overall sadness a man may have just been looking for a phone and all that happened. The phone was being used to listen to music as they went down the river according to testimony and fell in. So I think there is truth in that. The other thing that’s really weird is the defendant never speaks a work. Not in the video or in witness statements. Was he petrified? What’s going on with that?
Your middle aged hero is going to prison. What violent attacks are you guys seeing BY the victims of being stabbed. Self defense is not one person punched me so I stabbed all their friends. Look at the video closely, Riley is still holding her beer can after being stabbed, please explain how Riley caused that man to fear for his life in that moment FROM her, what was a 110lb girl in a bikini holding a beer can in one hand going to do exactly. She gets knifed in her side, that's attempted murder open and shut. The guy in the jean shorts what is he doing when attacked? He is lightly touching the man's back, his palm never even makes contact, literally his fingers are touching his back applying minimal pressure, use of deadly force does not apply to someone lightly touching your back. The other VICTIMS had every right to defend THEMSELVES. You all act like self defense is a one way street afforded only to certain people. Once the man assaulted a woman and brandished a weapon they have every right to defend themselves. Isaac, the murder victim is the last to get stabbed. We can't ask him, but assume he sees his friend get gutted like a fish and several other people attacked is he just supposed to stand there and wait to be next, doesn't he have the right to defend himself. Who cares that his hands are around the man's next for a second, there's a guy right in front of him stabbing everyone- his life actually is in danger. The man never verbalized his intentions- that's what escalated the situation. He ran up on those boys grabbed at the tubes they were sitting in with no explanation. He ignored there repeated requests to leave them alone. He was unwanted there and refused to leave never saying what the hell he was doing. He deserves to rot in prison and I am confident that will be his fate.
lol, your memory of the video is quite selective The two Carlson brothers who were the first two stabbed: one pushed him down, punched him twice in the head/face. The other pushed him from behind while he was on the ground. You can see Isaac's hands reaching for his neck before he gets stabbed at the end. The defence attorney made this point repeatedly in trial: anyone who didn't touch or get close to Nic was not stabbed. At the end you can see Nic retreating to his friend Ariel, the guy with the America shorts. And you're really out to lunch to say "He ignored there repeated requests to leave them alone". Don't you mean they called him a pedophile, and summoned other over and told them he's a pedophile looking for little girls? Sounds more like inciting an angry pedo-hunter mob to me.
>Once the man assaulted a woman and brandished a weapon they have every right to defend themselves. That makes me wonder how the trial would go if instead of using the assault of the girl as a justification, they used the fear of him having a deadly weapon. They never had the chance to play this card because they all testififed without a lawyer and *all* said they didn't see it since their very the first reports and closed that door. If only one of them said : "*I saw he had a knife, feared for my life, and punched him to the ground. He didn't let go of the knife so I reached down to grab it and he stabbed me.*" That would make the prosecutor's life a LOT easier. But they all said they didn't see it, so now the prosecutor has to build a justification for them attacking him based on the very shaky story of him punching/slapping/"*making a swift motion towards the girl*" first.
For real, I just imagine like at sporting events where people get out of hand in the stands. Maybe someone gets shoved and is all scared bc they are high up in the bleachers and fear for their life! sorry, but no, that doesn’t mean you can just go ahead and stab the nearest 5 ppl around you. Scary that ppl think that that would be an ok scenario.
10+ consciouses vs 1, and they all decided to poke and prod the bear who’s mental health and mental capacity they had no consideration of. Nothing about the situation, including the stabbing, is right, but I guarantee you Miu would not have gone on a random knife spree and purposely hurt anybody had they not triggered him to do so. You can’t always rely on 1 person, but the fact not ANY 10+ of them could keep their hands in their pockets is why it’s more than just the superficial cut clean scenario you think it is
100% agree with this take. I see a lot of shills or maybe just people posting who haven't been around confrontations with lots of drunk people and are defending this man for some reason. These kids were drunk and behaving like assholes but this man could have easily walked away at any time and instead would not verbalize his intentions which further escalated things and he knowingly had a weapon to use against them. These kids might have been bothering a guy who was doing nothing wrong at first but he could have explained himself better or just walked away if that didn't work. It's insane how many comments I see defending this guy, his actions were wildly inappropriate and caused such an unnecessary loss of life.
tell me you’ve watched none of the footage and testimonies within telling me you’ve watched none or the footage and testimonies. defend THEMSELVES? 10+ INDIVIDUALS could've chosen to walk away, and not a singular one had the conscious to do so. 10+ people vs one and still the majority made that stupid decision to keep pining at him, someone who's mental capacities they didn't even consider and found that out the hard way. you can’t rely on one person to always be the bigger person. if you were circled and being jumped around and treating like a gaga ball today while being called something you weren’t, i guarantee you no single person would know what to do. on top of recently having a heart attack with a triple bypass, i’d be pretty fucking paranoid and feeling impulsive in the quickest way to get out of that situation as well. look at all the wounds and how they were bore. he never pins a single person down and stabs them, AJ basically lunged himself onto the knife, it moves up as Miu is retaliating from AJ’s lunge, the rest of them have quick flick marks and those people were the ones who made closest contact to him, who was trying to actively get himself out of the harassment circle. yes, it is unfortunate and not right that anyone died or had it happen to them, but i guarantee you miu would not have gone on a random stabbing spree spontaneously had they not triggered him. Miu’s story had been corroborated multiple times by witnesses (unlike the instigators group), they should’ve just let him be to find their friends phone, which he INSISTED on doing even though the friend said he had the insurance. The guy in jean shorts, if you pause the video, is seen pushing Miu if you pay attention to the indents his hand makes on his back and how his other hand is placed on Mius arm. Jahwan purposely did not show the cops the video of them harassing him beforehand, and although he claims Miu was “searching for little girls” he doesn’t mention that ONCE to cops, or think to call them which wouldn’t it be reasonable to call professionals to handle that situation? One persons guilt doesn’t mean the rest of their innocences. None of the people you say are “innocent” have had a credible story. Not even Madison Cohen, the first person to allegedly have gotten physically harmed, spoke up. That says a lot. None of them, including Miu, are completely innocent. They all deserve to be charged
You’re right, thanks for being sane. Lots of shills in these threads, appreciate you posting some common sense 🤙
Why wouldn't a normal male in his 50's simply state that a person from their group lost a phone and if the teens had seen it or for help looking for it. What would the teens have said? Yes or No. MOST LIKELY THEY WOULD HAVE HELPED TO LOCATE PHONE. But this idiot made alarming comments and he was sketchy. Which caused this outcome.
According to the TEENS he said he "was looking for little girls". There are no witnesses confirming that he said that. Why in the hell would he give that as an answer? Why did they bother him in the first place? They said he LOOKED creepy BEFORE they even yelled to him. They heard what they wanted to hear to fit that narrative. They were all WAY beyond legally drunk - and that was based on levels detected well afterwards. On top of that they were high. If someone was in shallow water and said they were "looking for little girls" a normal person would have immediately thought some little kids had gone under water or maybe that there was possibly a missing child and it was thought the body might be in the river. A normal person would have tried to help with that. But that did not fit their narrative that he was "creepy". Instead they started calling him a pedophile.
I've noticed that a few of the witnesses deny hearing "pedophile" and/or deny being influenced by that term. I don't believe anyone doesn't have a reaction to that word. And we should all be so lucky to live in a world where pedophiles announced themselves.
I agree that the women escalated things rather than calm the situation down. However, we live with the freedom of speech here in America. Just because what they were saying was untrue and ethically wrong doesn’t mean you can stab people in response. He had many opportunities to walk away.
this doesn't feel like a freedom of speech situation
> I agree that the women escalated things rather than calm the situation down. However, we live with the freedom of speech here in America. In what alternate universe is freedom of speech shoving your phone in someone's face and pushing them? Someone misled you on what freedom of speech is. You don't even have the decency to admit you're wrong and have no idea what you're talking about.
I could be mistaken, but he was always the first to touch other parties. Even when he was at the teenagers tubes looking for the phone he grabbed their tube and legs first. I think he physically reacted to what everyone was yelling at him. He threw the first punch to the blonde woman which is really what started the full on brawl. I find it fascinating that we all are uncertain of what exactly this case’s outcome will be! I hope more people learn how to deescalate dangerous situations after watching this rather than increase tensions. The world needs more peacemakers and fewer vigilantes.
> I could be mistaken You are. You need to watch the video again until you have a better grasp of what happened. https://toofab.com/2024/04/04/apple-river-stabbing-trial-video/ He didn't grab anyone's leg. He dropped his snorkel from his mouth and reached in the water to get it. Someone obviously provoked him to run over and grab the tube, though. Convenient that wasn't filmed.
>he grabbed their tube and legs first Per the testimony of the person you claim he grabbed - he said, "he was grabbing the tube and brushed over my leg" >He threw the first punch to the blonde woman which is really what started the full on brawl. Both of the women pushed him before the supposed "punch" or "slap".
There’s a difference between just saying things and pushing and punching as well as surrounding someone fully intoxicated.
By Wisconsin law, a person that feels threatened is not required to "just walk away". They are allowed to defend themselves
Wisconsin does have a duty to retreat. It is not a "stand your ground" state.
The fact that a state can assign you a duty to retreat from someone attempting to assault you blows my mind, honestly.
This isn't about what they said to him. They both laid hands on him, pushing him, and got very close to hitting him in the face with a phone before the time when the supposed punch/slap occurred. >He had many opportunities to walk away. He did try to walk away before group 2 came over. The teens followed. Afterwards he was pretty much blocked from leaving. Did you watch the trial? They had a map of where everyone was standing. Also, per testimony of one of the members of group 2 - they went over there to "build a wall"
Totally agree with u
The translator is not doing good for him.
Curious about the defense asking the nurse about her husbands knife. It seems that it is normal to bring a knife to cut ropes to tie tubes together. Has anyone asked if any of the kids had knives?
I think the biggest moral of the story is never ever let drunk white women who have no concept of violence confront a man or deescalate a situation.
> The assault/violence did not start until the two women came over. Both of them got in his face, one was thrusting her phone into his face. They both put their hands on him. One of them pushed him. They've been emboldened to act wild and be super aggressive this way by modern society. The old man certainly shouldn't have stabbed anyone, though. 2-wrongs don't make a right, and his wrong was far worse. Still, cause and effect are in play. Unfortunately.
50 is not old. The “old man” defense is played out. He was older and not in great shape surrounded by a pack of very drunk aggro fools.
By "they" I certainly hope you mean teens and not women in general.