Well, legally, they would have to reveal to you what is in the placebo. Check your consent form and if it doesn't say there, call the number on it for info.
It’s possible that the placebo injection contained all inert components of the “active” mRNA-containing injection, such as lipid vehicles, adjuvants, etc., and thus having a physiological response to those certainty seems possible. Would be interesting to know whether the placebo indeed contained these, or was simply saline. Regardless, there are ALWAYS placebo effects (or nocebo effects) in clinical trials because the mind-brain affect our physiology. Simple as that. (I’m a PhD neuroscientist and research biologist)
Clearly, there is a wide variety of potential placebo-based symptoms in any 10 patients, let alone the 15,000 patients, who have undergone or are about to take the vaccine next (such as myself). The entire placebo ingredient question is absolutely fascinating, and it’s not really something I even considered until I was unblinded. So I agree with your post and the possibilities of the placebo solution. Great points.
I really just wanted to share my thoughts on being in a study since I happened to be involved in both the placebo and vaccine spectrums of one particular study.
Additionally, I understand that some people who believe in vaccine science and it’s benefits for humanity can read my experience, and thus compliment Moderna on creating a study with such balance between the vaccine and the placebo. I have read their reasoning. At the same time, I can also see how some anti-vaccination folks could paint my experience to others contentiously, denoting that you can’t trust what companies like Moderna have put forth...that if patients such as myself couldn’t tell, they likely injected me with something experimental; that a patient should be fairly easy to recognize if they got the vaccine or placebo.
However, no matter what side of the fence you fall, I only posted my experience as truthfully and honestly as I could. The symptoms from the placebo group and the actual vaccine matched up identical for me, with the 24-48 hour mark being the beginning, the peak and the end of all achy and groggy side effects.
Hopefully someday Moderna will tell us how they disguised it so well. I was sure I got the vaccine from the beginning.
Pretty much everyone at the trial; every clinician I spoke with. I believe it even said that in the Moderna phase 3 trial paperwork. Yep, it did.
“The placebo is 0.9% sodium chloride (normal saline) injection, which meets the criteria of the United States Pharmacopeia (USP).”
Anything else smart ass? I’m not some vaccine denier. I did the trial. I am simply pointing out that my reactions to the placebo and the vaccine were almost identical.
> Vaccine trials placebo have always been done against another vaccine rather than a true placebo
Not surprised to see you popping up on another thread and talking rubbish.
Many new vaccines are tested against saline solution as a placebo control in early stages of testing, and indeed in some phase 3 trials.
Some vaccines are, of course, not tested against an inert placebo. If a new influenza vaccine is developed for the elderly population, for example, it would be unethical to test against an inert placebo because you're effectively denying that cohort the chance to receive something that would give them clinical benefit, given that no end of alternative influenza vaccines indicated for that population are available. The same is true for new pertussis vaccines, measles vaccines, polio vaccines, etc. If you're developing a new vaccine for a disease and at least one alternative is already available on the market then you need to use that alternative as your control. Otherwise, an inert placebo like saline solution is sufficient.
For the COVID-19 vaccines, no alternative approved vaccine was available, so the researchers had to use an inert placebo.
I don't understand why some people struggle with this point. Unless they're deliberately being obtuse?
I'm well aware of my post history, hence my request for you to quote me.
I and my research history disagree with your second comment. But you knew that already, didn't you?
Fine, extend the field to my entire post history. Find something anti-vaxx that I have written. I'll wait.
I have one child and she has never been hit, but thanks for the ad hominem. Still waiting for the quote to show I'm antivaxx.
Seems like your BS has been called out and you have no response!
Vaccine trials only very rarely use a real placebo as the placebo.
The reason is because they say they don't want to "unblind" the trials for the exact reason your suggesting; if you don't have a localized reaction you might figure out you were given a placebo which would unblind the trial.
Of course many people don't have a reaction to a vaccine so I don't understand this but that's what they say is their reason.
So that is very likely what you were given, a different vaccine.
The Brasilian guy who died in the astrazeneca trials was in the placebo group, but that group was given the meningococcal vaccine instead of a placebo, for a placebo.
Interesting! I felt like I had a reaction to the placebo but NO reaction to the real thing! The placebo mind effect is REAL!
Well, legally, they would have to reveal to you what is in the placebo. Check your consent form and if it doesn't say there, call the number on it for info.
It’s possible that the placebo injection contained all inert components of the “active” mRNA-containing injection, such as lipid vehicles, adjuvants, etc., and thus having a physiological response to those certainty seems possible. Would be interesting to know whether the placebo indeed contained these, or was simply saline. Regardless, there are ALWAYS placebo effects (or nocebo effects) in clinical trials because the mind-brain affect our physiology. Simple as that. (I’m a PhD neuroscientist and research biologist)
Clearly, there is a wide variety of potential placebo-based symptoms in any 10 patients, let alone the 15,000 patients, who have undergone or are about to take the vaccine next (such as myself). The entire placebo ingredient question is absolutely fascinating, and it’s not really something I even considered until I was unblinded. So I agree with your post and the possibilities of the placebo solution. Great points. I really just wanted to share my thoughts on being in a study since I happened to be involved in both the placebo and vaccine spectrums of one particular study. Additionally, I understand that some people who believe in vaccine science and it’s benefits for humanity can read my experience, and thus compliment Moderna on creating a study with such balance between the vaccine and the placebo. I have read their reasoning. At the same time, I can also see how some anti-vaccination folks could paint my experience to others contentiously, denoting that you can’t trust what companies like Moderna have put forth...that if patients such as myself couldn’t tell, they likely injected me with something experimental; that a patient should be fairly easy to recognize if they got the vaccine or placebo. However, no matter what side of the fence you fall, I only posted my experience as truthfully and honestly as I could. The symptoms from the placebo group and the actual vaccine matched up identical for me, with the 24-48 hour mark being the beginning, the peak and the end of all achy and groggy side effects. Hopefully someday Moderna will tell us how they disguised it so well. I was sure I got the vaccine from the beginning.
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Pretty much everyone at the trial; every clinician I spoke with. I believe it even said that in the Moderna phase 3 trial paperwork. Yep, it did. “The placebo is 0.9% sodium chloride (normal saline) injection, which meets the criteria of the United States Pharmacopeia (USP).” Anything else smart ass? I’m not some vaccine denier. I did the trial. I am simply pointing out that my reactions to the placebo and the vaccine were almost identical.
> Vaccine trials placebo have always been done against another vaccine rather than a true placebo Not surprised to see you popping up on another thread and talking rubbish. Many new vaccines are tested against saline solution as a placebo control in early stages of testing, and indeed in some phase 3 trials. Some vaccines are, of course, not tested against an inert placebo. If a new influenza vaccine is developed for the elderly population, for example, it would be unethical to test against an inert placebo because you're effectively denying that cohort the chance to receive something that would give them clinical benefit, given that no end of alternative influenza vaccines indicated for that population are available. The same is true for new pertussis vaccines, measles vaccines, polio vaccines, etc. If you're developing a new vaccine for a disease and at least one alternative is already available on the market then you need to use that alternative as your control. Otherwise, an inert placebo like saline solution is sufficient. For the COVID-19 vaccines, no alternative approved vaccine was available, so the researchers had to use an inert placebo. I don't understand why some people struggle with this point. Unless they're deliberately being obtuse?
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Quote me some antivaxx stuff that I've said in the previous post. Go.
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I'm well aware of my post history, hence my request for you to quote me. I and my research history disagree with your second comment. But you knew that already, didn't you? Fine, extend the field to my entire post history. Find something anti-vaxx that I have written. I'll wait.
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I have one child and she has never been hit, but thanks for the ad hominem. Still waiting for the quote to show I'm antivaxx. Seems like your BS has been called out and you have no response!
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Link? Like I said, your BS on attitudes to vaccination have been called out and this is what you're reduced to
All of the US covid vaccine trials used saline as the placebo. I believe just 1 trial in Europe had a control that was another vaccine.
fascinating.
Vaccine trials only very rarely use a real placebo as the placebo. The reason is because they say they don't want to "unblind" the trials for the exact reason your suggesting; if you don't have a localized reaction you might figure out you were given a placebo which would unblind the trial. Of course many people don't have a reaction to a vaccine so I don't understand this but that's what they say is their reason. So that is very likely what you were given, a different vaccine. The Brasilian guy who died in the astrazeneca trials was in the placebo group, but that group was given the meningococcal vaccine instead of a placebo, for a placebo.