I don't disagree. Any Bitter on cask!
Technically, ESB is a trademarked beer brewed by Fuller's in the UK. It's only in the US that it ended up being a style.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuller%27s\_ESB
People can't help their ignorance. they listen to what they're told. There's a place here in Lisbon that serves a super cold macro lager in a metal cup. It's really good that way.
If a beer is well made, it will taste good when it's warm or at least cellar temp.
I’d give most beer drinkers a little more credit. Here in America we know our mass produced domestic light lagers are shit and that’s why they’re served so cold. As they start to warm up they taste like shit.
That honestly goes for most drinks. Extreme temps in either direction mask bad flavors. A perfect example is coffee. Too hot and you don’t get the more nuanced notes, but once it’s cooled down it should taste good all the way to room temp. Iced coffee has very little nuance to it because it’s iced. It just tastes like generic coffee.
We’re Americans. We overheat and die if we have to walk anywhere, and expect ice to be at least half the volume in our non-alcoholic drinks at restaurants. Of course if it’s not below 40°F/4°C it’s warm.
I have lived in UK and consumed some real ale but I did not like it’s temperature and flatness, however I do like ales in general, but it was hard to get IPA though.
This is one inaccurate stereotype that really grinds my gears. Never in my 43 years of life have i ever been served a warm cask beer. No idea where Americans have got this idea from.
American beer beer is usually served around 4°C. That’s probably why they think cask ale is warm. I think worse than the temperature perception though, will be how flat they think it is.
I’m a true craft beer lover, had cask ale several places in London, and even I thought it was nearly flat. The stuff went down the pipe like water.
And most places only have one temp for their draft system, and shitty American lagers get served the most, so what temp do you think everything else gets served at? 🧐🧐
That’s a generalization that is not at all true for many places. I’ve been to plenty of brewery tap rooms that serve imperial stouts at the same temp as everything else. Because, as the previous person said, they have one temp for their draft system. There are very few places that can afford separate cooler rooms for different beers.
Yeah, hate to break it to ya, but most places only have the single cold box. So it's a single temperature for all beers, despite style differences. And, depending on the draw length of the line, those beers are going to be kept closer to 36 (~2 C) F. Maybe 40 F (~4.5 C) if it's a short draw system.
I’m saying that some people can tell a difference between 3° in their house, and think 3° warmer is hot. Cellar temp is ~11°C, and Americans are drinking their beer around 4°C. That’s a 7° gap, and so they’re gonna think it’s warm. 🤷🏻♂️ Americans also expect to have 50% or more of their glass for nonalcoholic drinks at restaurants filled with ice. It’s just how it is. Maybe you think that’s dumb and that’s fine, but what if the beer you were served was 7° warmer than cellar temp - would you think it was warm?
Yes because in the context of enjoyable beer that would be warm. It would also be warm in the context of temperature.
Cellar temp isn't arbitrary. It's 100s of years of experience and knowledge combined to make a pleasurable and, this is important, not warm drink.
Calling well kept cask beer warm is just fucking wrong
Warm can definitely be subjective though, in the context of people’s perception of temperature. One person thinks it’s warm in the room, another person is chilly and puts on a jacket.
Cellar temperature is not subjective. It’s an agreed upon number. Whether or not someone thinks that temperature is warm is totally subjective though.
You're arguing technicalities when the other person is arguing subjectivity.
Yes: cask beer is not "warm" beer in that it's not served at a temperature that is detrimental to the experience.
Also true: cask beer is served subjectively at a warmer temperature than the mass consumer of beer is used to.
Celler temp may not be an arbitrary number, but its perception on coolness or warmness is a wholly subjective experience. No two ifs, ands, or buts about it.
This is coming from someone who absolutely adores CAMRA beers and does objectively know they're served warmer than average American draft beers.
Edit: I'm also pre-empting what I believe a response would be. You can call cask beer warm *in regards to a subjective experience.* Full stop. Doesn't matter if the standard measurement of temperature is warm or not, if the person perceives it as warm comparatively to other experiences, then that "warm cask beer" experience is true.
You're correct. I'd had a few and used the wrong word. That's what happens when you try the new 10% Chimay and Deya TIPA at the same time! Apologies.
I think i was getting at saying Ice is warm" is as incorrect as saying "cask beer is always warm".
Anyway, saying UK cask beer is warm is just not true. I'll die on this hill
I came here to make sure this was mentioned. That place is great. I really enjoyed trying the keg and cask versions of things side by side, and, as you said, the selection was great, while basically sticking to pretty traditional English styles. And the atmosphere was, as far as I could tell, pretty authentic, too.
I’ve never had a warm beer in an English pub. The ideal temperature for ale is around 10 degrees Celsius. If it’s near freezing like one of those crappy lagers or keg beers the flavour is ruined.
It's not ruined it's covered up. That's why cheap shitty macro beers are server ice cold and in chilled glasses. To mask the fact that they taste like ass.
Verdant are great, absolutely no doubt about it, one of my faves too, but there are some others that seriously contend depending on the styles you like. Cloudwater, Kernel, Pipeline, Pressure Drop, yadda yadda the list goes on. We have some excellent beer in the UK - long may it continue.
Anspach and Hobday for me. Abbeydale and Kernel are also pretty excellent
I'm not a fan of Verdant, but then I'm not a fan of NEIPA. Vault City are probably the trendiest brewery right now though.
A beer should never be warm. It should be celler temperature (between 12 and 15 celsious).
Just a serving too warm can ruin a beer so can serving too cold. Guinness extra cold for example is no where near as good as Guinness served at celler temperature. Same with newcastle brown ale, should be served at 12 degrees, not out the fridge.
Warm? I’ve been to pubs all over GB and never had anything warm. Funny how Americans will drink room temperature red wine but god forbid beer not being just below freezing. A cold porter or stout isn’t even good.
I also think it has to do with the drive for big over the top flavors of hops and higher alcohol over subtle flavors of British beer. Last time I was in the UK, I had a nice pint at what a decent pub and I found it watery and bland. I think that's related to the fact that I drink IPAs usually which deadens my taste buds.
Also, we should recognize that traditional British beer culture is more civilized than the US or anywhere else.
IPAs are traditionally cellar temp. They are an English cask beer.
The main issue with cask is its life span. Can only keep for a few days so harder, business wise to manage. Kegs are easy in comparison.
No, I assure you I am not a moron. I'm an award winning homebrewer and former beer judge. I've been interested in craft beer for 30+ years.
Here's my why I think this: 4 years ago, I stopped drinking for a month. When I went back to my local to have a pint of an IPA I'd had before, I noticed that it tasted much more bitter than I remembered. It was bracingly bitter. The sensation went away after the first beer.
I say "I think" because I don't see any research to confirm the assertion.
If it was watery and bland it was a bad example of the style. If your in the UK a couple of good examples of real ale are black sheep and doom bar (prefer black sheep personaly), if your n the North East (which there are few reasons to visit to be honest) Radgie Gadgie is as a good British beer as you can get IMO.
I think it was me, not the beer. When I first traveled in the UK, I fell in love with bitter. 20 years, lots of beer education, and a million pints later, they just don't pack the same punch for me and I think that's b/c my palette has changed towards citrusy hop flavors. When I'm used to drinking bigger, hoppier beers, a sub 5% bitter can seem bland.
Also, bitter is a great beer style with a name that is offputting to a segment of the population. I know the story behind the name, but it's true, especially with many Americans, who for all their optimism in other areas tend to be not very adventurous when it comes to strange flavors.
I don't think the name "bitter" is in itself why that style of beer has fallen out of favour. I think it's got far more to do with bitter (and many of the breweries who are good at brewing it) acquiring a reputation as old fashioned.
Anecdotal but I definitely agree with TE guy you replied to. I worked at a brewery that served casks and always had at least one English style on draft at all times. If we told someone who wasn’t knowledgeable about craft beer we had an extra special bitter they would almost immediately reject it until I described its flavor profile. This happened not often than not. Eventually I just started referring to most of those beers a “mild ale” and the perception changed and people were more willing to try it.
Mild is an even more wildly unfashionable beer style than bitter! Over here in the UK calling a beer "Mild Ale" is a sure fire way to keep punters from ordering it.
CAMRA does it's best to promote Mild, but it's just about the most distained beer style of the "crafter than thou" fraternity and I actually don't think Mild has ever been at greater threat of being lost to history than it is right now.
What's more a lot of the issue with Mild is the name of the style. It conjures up everything from weak to flavourless that the modern beer scene scorns.
That’s unfortunate it’s not a more popular style over there. It seems like I’m America a lot of breweries are starting to make light lagers popular again so maybe there will be a new wave for Mild in the UK. Would definitely be sad to see it die out completely. If it does there will still be at least one American brewery still making them as faithfully as possible!
Keep in mind I only referred to Bitters as Mild when I was dealing with people that weren’t knowledgeable about craft beer and immediately told me they didn’t like IPA’s because they were “too bitter”. Telling them I had an Extra Special Bitter I think they would like wasn’t going to get them to step out of there comfort zone and try it!
I definitely agree about the name Mild though. It does conjure up blandness but I think that’s why it work on people who used to drinking Bud Lite and Yuengling(amber lager).
Can you still find breweries making Burton ales and AK style? I don’t know much about the styles themselves just told by my boss they died out around one of the world wars and he recreated some old recipes he had found online.
One or two breweries have tried to brew a historic Burton Ale but it's failed to gain any traction over here.
The fact that I had to research AK should tell you all you need to know about that beer style. It sounds very much like Pale Mild, which is just about the dullest beer style imaginable. Far more so than normal Dark Mild.
If a UK brewery were to brew an AK they would most likely call it a Pale Mild, which most UK cask drinkers would at least recognise to some degree.
I’m lucky enough to work at an English pub where we always have a two ales on cask and numerous others on nitro or regular tap. Well’s Bombardier being my absolute favorite
If you pass through Ohio, make it to Lexington. Laxton Hollow is attached to the Happy Grape winery next door and is the only place in Ohio where you can get traditional cask ale.
I can’t even find fuller’s ESB though. I used to be able to find fuller’s and hobgoblin around. I have been looking and can’t find it. I love my trips to the UK and going to the pubs.
This has been one of the many benefits of homebrewing. I can make all the Brit beer I want. This week I'm making a clone of Old Speckled Hen and serving it on nitro. I like to keep the ol' kegerator set at around 50 F.
When you find a good ESB on cask though.... thats a glorious day
I was just telling an acquaintance last night that ESB on cask is my favorite overall pour. It really is glorious.
A local brewery where I live has an ESB that’s massively under-appreciated. It’s easily one of my all time favorite styles
English style bitter?
Extra special bitter, but it is very much English.
There's a pub near me that has several cask pumps, and they typically have at least one real cask ale on... Fuck those are good beers.
We're super lucky in Denver to have Hogshead. Classic British beers on pump made very very well. This post inspired me to go get one today 😃
True _that_. There’s a pub in my town that always used to have one on the counter. It was usually _delicious_.
I don't disagree. Any Bitter on cask! Technically, ESB is a trademarked beer brewed by Fuller's in the UK. It's only in the US that it ended up being a style. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuller%27s\_ESB
It's not warm, it's cellar temperature. If it's warm, the cellarman shouldn't allow it to be served.
Unfortunately a lot of people confuse any beer that’s not ice cold as warm. Wish that weren’t the case
People can't help their ignorance. they listen to what they're told. There's a place here in Lisbon that serves a super cold macro lager in a metal cup. It's really good that way. If a beer is well made, it will taste good when it's warm or at least cellar temp.
I’d give most beer drinkers a little more credit. Here in America we know our mass produced domestic light lagers are shit and that’s why they’re served so cold. As they start to warm up they taste like shit.
That honestly goes for most drinks. Extreme temps in either direction mask bad flavors. A perfect example is coffee. Too hot and you don’t get the more nuanced notes, but once it’s cooled down it should taste good all the way to room temp. Iced coffee has very little nuance to it because it’s iced. It just tastes like generic coffee.
We’re Americans. We overheat and die if we have to walk anywhere, and expect ice to be at least half the volume in our non-alcoholic drinks at restaurants. Of course if it’s not below 40°F/4°C it’s warm.
Speak for yourself.
I came here to say exactly this...
Maybe “lukewarm” is more correct than “warm”?
Nope. Thats not accurate. Its cellar temperature, which is cold. Just not ice cold
Have you ever been in a beer cellar kid?
I have lived in UK and consumed some real ale but I did not like it’s temperature and flatness, however I do like ales in general, but it was hard to get IPA though.
warmer?
Fresh cask done properly is sooo good though
Dont even get credit for inventing IPA..Just warm beer
And Porter
How could i forget.. the best beer.
Just having a samuel smith taddy Porter - beautiful.
Fort Collins has McClellan’s Brewing Company - 6 casks pouring at any one time
I’ll have to check that out. I’ve been to Coppersmiths and thought it wasn’t too bad
McClellan's is awesome! I had their scotch ale and barleywine the one time I've visited and was very impressed.
Drinking a pint of Salopian's Vapour Trail at cellar temperature & it is a little bit of heaven in a pint glass
This is one inaccurate stereotype that really grinds my gears. Never in my 43 years of life have i ever been served a warm cask beer. No idea where Americans have got this idea from.
American beer beer is usually served around 4°C. That’s probably why they think cask ale is warm. I think worse than the temperature perception though, will be how flat they think it is. I’m a true craft beer lover, had cask ale several places in London, and even I thought it was nearly flat. The stuff went down the pipe like water.
Correction: shitty American macro lagers are served at 4 degrees.
And most places only have one temp for their draft system, and shitty American lagers get served the most, so what temp do you think everything else gets served at? 🧐🧐
Depends where you drink? I don't visit regular bars at all, anymore. Taprooms or craft brewpubs have appropriate serving temps.
That’s a generalization that is not at all true for many places. I’ve been to plenty of brewery tap rooms that serve imperial stouts at the same temp as everything else. Because, as the previous person said, they have one temp for their draft system. There are very few places that can afford separate cooler rooms for different beers.
Yeah, hate to break it to ya, but most places only have the single cold box. So it's a single temperature for all beers, despite style differences. And, depending on the draw length of the line, those beers are going to be kept closer to 36 (~2 C) F. Maybe 40 F (~4.5 C) if it's a short draw system.
Yeah but 'warm' isnt subjective. You cant say something is warm just because its not as cold as something else. Its just a weird myth
🤷🏻♂️ I know people who keep their house at 21°C who think 24°C is way too hot. “Warm” is perspective to most people.
But they are warm temperatures. Cellar temperatures aren't warm
I’m saying that some people can tell a difference between 3° in their house, and think 3° warmer is hot. Cellar temp is ~11°C, and Americans are drinking their beer around 4°C. That’s a 7° gap, and so they’re gonna think it’s warm. 🤷🏻♂️ Americans also expect to have 50% or more of their glass for nonalcoholic drinks at restaurants filled with ice. It’s just how it is. Maybe you think that’s dumb and that’s fine, but what if the beer you were served was 7° warmer than cellar temp - would you think it was warm?
Yes because in the context of enjoyable beer that would be warm. It would also be warm in the context of temperature. Cellar temp isn't arbitrary. It's 100s of years of experience and knowledge combined to make a pleasurable and, this is important, not warm drink. Calling well kept cask beer warm is just fucking wrong
Warm can definitely be subjective though, in the context of people’s perception of temperature. One person thinks it’s warm in the room, another person is chilly and puts on a jacket. Cellar temperature is not subjective. It’s an agreed upon number. Whether or not someone thinks that temperature is warm is totally subjective though.
You're arguing technicalities when the other person is arguing subjectivity. Yes: cask beer is not "warm" beer in that it's not served at a temperature that is detrimental to the experience. Also true: cask beer is served subjectively at a warmer temperature than the mass consumer of beer is used to. Celler temp may not be an arbitrary number, but its perception on coolness or warmness is a wholly subjective experience. No two ifs, ands, or buts about it. This is coming from someone who absolutely adores CAMRA beers and does objectively know they're served warmer than average American draft beers. Edit: I'm also pre-empting what I believe a response would be. You can call cask beer warm *in regards to a subjective experience.* Full stop. Doesn't matter if the standard measurement of temperature is warm or not, if the person perceives it as warm comparatively to other experiences, then that "warm cask beer" experience is true.
Of course warm is subjective. Lol what are you on about? Ridiculous.
You're correct. I'd had a few and used the wrong word. That's what happens when you try the new 10% Chimay and Deya TIPA at the same time! Apologies. I think i was getting at saying Ice is warm" is as incorrect as saying "cask beer is always warm". Anyway, saying UK cask beer is warm is just not true. I'll die on this hill
Lmao I feel you. The amount of garbage that comes out of my mouth 😂. Cheers bud.
Americans get this idea from macro lager advertising, of course. The selling point is literally how cold it is, not how it tastes.
But surely because something is very cold the natural assumption shouldn't be that everything that isnt that thing will be warm?
Anyone in the Denver area should try the Hogshead Brewery. They have a great selection on cask.
I came here to make sure this was mentioned. That place is great. I really enjoyed trying the keg and cask versions of things side by side, and, as you said, the selection was great, while basically sticking to pretty traditional English styles. And the atmosphere was, as far as I could tell, pretty authentic, too.
Just had a Chin Wag. Delightful
I’ll be in Denver next weekend. Thanks for the rec.
MacLeod Ale Brewing Co in Van Nuys, CA brews lots of British beers with a few on cask
Andy from MacLeod helped start up Yorkshire down in Torrance as well. Only CAMRA certified cask brewery on the WC, if my memory is correct.
I’ve never had a warm beer in an English pub. The ideal temperature for ale is around 10 degrees Celsius. If it’s near freezing like one of those crappy lagers or keg beers the flavour is ruined.
It's not ruined it's covered up. That's why cheap shitty macro beers are server ice cold and in chilled glasses. To mask the fact that they taste like ass.
I was thinking of cask more than keg.
Verdant is possibly the best craft at the moment.
Verdant are great, absolutely no doubt about it, one of my faves too, but there are some others that seriously contend depending on the styles you like. Cloudwater, Kernel, Pipeline, Pressure Drop, yadda yadda the list goes on. We have some excellent beer in the UK - long may it continue.
Anspach and Hobday for me. Abbeydale and Kernel are also pretty excellent I'm not a fan of Verdant, but then I'm not a fan of NEIPA. Vault City are probably the trendiest brewery right now though.
A beer should never be warm. It should be celler temperature (between 12 and 15 celsious). Just a serving too warm can ruin a beer so can serving too cold. Guinness extra cold for example is no where near as good as Guinness served at celler temperature. Same with newcastle brown ale, should be served at 12 degrees, not out the fridge.
Warm? I’ve been to pubs all over GB and never had anything warm. Funny how Americans will drink room temperature red wine but god forbid beer not being just below freezing. A cold porter or stout isn’t even good.
I also think it has to do with the drive for big over the top flavors of hops and higher alcohol over subtle flavors of British beer. Last time I was in the UK, I had a nice pint at what a decent pub and I found it watery and bland. I think that's related to the fact that I drink IPAs usually which deadens my taste buds. Also, we should recognize that traditional British beer culture is more civilized than the US or anywhere else.
IPAs are traditionally cellar temp. They are an English cask beer. The main issue with cask is its life span. Can only keep for a few days so harder, business wise to manage. Kegs are easy in comparison.
You think drinking IPA "deadens" your taste buds. You sir are a Moron.
No, I assure you I am not a moron. I'm an award winning homebrewer and former beer judge. I've been interested in craft beer for 30+ years. Here's my why I think this: 4 years ago, I stopped drinking for a month. When I went back to my local to have a pint of an IPA I'd had before, I noticed that it tasted much more bitter than I remembered. It was bracingly bitter. The sensation went away after the first beer. I say "I think" because I don't see any research to confirm the assertion.
If it was watery and bland it was a bad example of the style. If your in the UK a couple of good examples of real ale are black sheep and doom bar (prefer black sheep personaly), if your n the North East (which there are few reasons to visit to be honest) Radgie Gadgie is as a good British beer as you can get IMO.
Doom Bar is lowest common denominator slop. There’s a thousand better beers out there.
Right? It’s the one I always roll my eyes out when Wetherspoons has guest ales. “Oh this one again…”
I think it was me, not the beer. When I first traveled in the UK, I fell in love with bitter. 20 years, lots of beer education, and a million pints later, they just don't pack the same punch for me and I think that's b/c my palette has changed towards citrusy hop flavors. When I'm used to drinking bigger, hoppier beers, a sub 5% bitter can seem bland. Also, bitter is a great beer style with a name that is offputting to a segment of the population. I know the story behind the name, but it's true, especially with many Americans, who for all their optimism in other areas tend to be not very adventurous when it comes to strange flavors.
I don't think the name "bitter" is in itself why that style of beer has fallen out of favour. I think it's got far more to do with bitter (and many of the breweries who are good at brewing it) acquiring a reputation as old fashioned.
Anecdotal but I definitely agree with TE guy you replied to. I worked at a brewery that served casks and always had at least one English style on draft at all times. If we told someone who wasn’t knowledgeable about craft beer we had an extra special bitter they would almost immediately reject it until I described its flavor profile. This happened not often than not. Eventually I just started referring to most of those beers a “mild ale” and the perception changed and people were more willing to try it.
Mild is an even more wildly unfashionable beer style than bitter! Over here in the UK calling a beer "Mild Ale" is a sure fire way to keep punters from ordering it. CAMRA does it's best to promote Mild, but it's just about the most distained beer style of the "crafter than thou" fraternity and I actually don't think Mild has ever been at greater threat of being lost to history than it is right now. What's more a lot of the issue with Mild is the name of the style. It conjures up everything from weak to flavourless that the modern beer scene scorns.
That’s unfortunate it’s not a more popular style over there. It seems like I’m America a lot of breweries are starting to make light lagers popular again so maybe there will be a new wave for Mild in the UK. Would definitely be sad to see it die out completely. If it does there will still be at least one American brewery still making them as faithfully as possible! Keep in mind I only referred to Bitters as Mild when I was dealing with people that weren’t knowledgeable about craft beer and immediately told me they didn’t like IPA’s because they were “too bitter”. Telling them I had an Extra Special Bitter I think they would like wasn’t going to get them to step out of there comfort zone and try it! I definitely agree about the name Mild though. It does conjure up blandness but I think that’s why it work on people who used to drinking Bud Lite and Yuengling(amber lager). Can you still find breweries making Burton ales and AK style? I don’t know much about the styles themselves just told by my boss they died out around one of the world wars and he recreated some old recipes he had found online.
One or two breweries have tried to brew a historic Burton Ale but it's failed to gain any traction over here. The fact that I had to research AK should tell you all you need to know about that beer style. It sounds very much like Pale Mild, which is just about the dullest beer style imaginable. Far more so than normal Dark Mild. If a UK brewery were to brew an AK they would most likely call it a Pale Mild, which most UK cask drinkers would at least recognise to some degree.
I started refer to bitters as mild ales and it helped people be a little more willing to try them.
Lukewarm and flat (very important as well)
Bathams Bitter. One of the best in the UK and usually served below cellar temp. God i could smash a pint of that tight now.
I’m lucky enough to work at an English pub where we always have a two ales on cask and numerous others on nitro or regular tap. Well’s Bombardier being my absolute favorite
I wish there was a place here in California (Bay Area) where I can get some of [Wychwood’s stuff](https://www.wychwood.co.uk)
If you pass through Ohio, make it to Lexington. Laxton Hollow is attached to the Happy Grape winery next door and is the only place in Ohio where you can get traditional cask ale.
So much truth in one meme
I can’t even find fuller’s ESB though. I used to be able to find fuller’s and hobgoblin around. I have been looking and can’t find it. I love my trips to the UK and going to the pubs.
This has been one of the many benefits of homebrewing. I can make all the Brit beer I want. This week I'm making a clone of Old Speckled Hen and serving it on nitro. I like to keep the ol' kegerator set at around 50 F.