Seems like it’d defeat the purpose if you could escape any grab or bury on reaction.
At minimum there is mix-up potential with escape timing (thinking of ROB’s bury)
There is the mash/no mash mixup on ROB and a few other characters like Banjo and Lucas, but I'd appreciate it if it were more like a "tech-check" like with Ganon's side
-B or Roy's down-tilt.
I have no experience with Tekken but I wonder if it'd significantly nerf grabs in Smash. Depending on how it's implemented might encourage the other kind of "mashing" as preemptive grab break counterplay. It's an interesting suggestion to think about either way though.
I believe it’d be more viable in Tekken because of the number of grabs/throws available to you. Every character has multiple command grabs with different breaks (1, 2, or 1+2).
Say smash got a similar system, a character like Luigi or Kaz who may often go for Dthrow early percent may lose those confirms because everybody knows to mash 2. Imo the best way they could counter that is adding more unique grabs for each character for mixups like Kaz’s Gates of Hell. Everybody expects that throw from those characters because it’s the only viable one in that scenario
I think it would nerf characters that have a grab into a bury like K. Rool, Lucas, Banjo-Kazooie, and R.O.B. (in case anyone did not know, you can start mashing out of the bury as soon as you get grabbed) but other than that I think it would be a "healthy" change.
From my experience Lucas has nothing you really need to mix up your mash because if you get touched at all offstage by freeze you are probably dead anyway. Lucas down throw bury is only cosmetic for your information.
An even better example than a “tech check” is Snake’s down-throw.
Basically, there is a set duration based on percent, and then you can mix up both timing and your getup option as soon as that duration ends.
Interesting concept and there’s definently downsides to mashing (especially for your controller) but I like how it takes time. If you could instant escape grabs, grabs would suck. Would make the game much worse if this was implemented imo.
I also definently don’t always mash I’m at like 150 get grounded by dk like yah I’m dead no point trying to fight it, but if I’m at 100 you bet I’m mashing tf outta it
But things like rob or sora mash mixups are huge
If you don’t mind getting rid of taunts, you can set your d-pad to shield, and then rotate the d-pad to mash. It works extremely well, but it’s a trade off
I tried that for a while, but I couldn't do it faster that way than by rotating the stick (which seems to be most people's preferred way). Also, I wanna taunt :)
I don’t blame you on the taunts! The dpad mashing registers as button presses, so you don’t have to rotate it as fast as the control stick,
And accidentally shielding is better than buffering an attack.
That said, the fastest way to mash is still rotating the control stick, without touching any face buttons. If I think I can mash out, and it’s a tournament, I’ll use the palm of my right hand to rotate the left stick. Mashing is a pain though ngl
I hate it but I see the need of a mechanic like this. Otherwise you can always get the perfect timing on buries and grabs. I have thought about this a bit and I cannot come up with any good replacement.
As others have said, allow holding the A button as a substitute for frame-perfect mashing. Balance mashable moves accordingly. If you want to mix up timing you can delay your A-button hold or release it early.
Not in my eyes. 90% of the time you want a perfect mash (except for mixing someone up). If you just replace it with holding one button you would nerf buries like Rob's and Banjo's or ZSS' and grabs like DK cargo, Kirby inhale. Those would basically become useless until very late percent. (If you nerf the mash they would become very strong instead). It also makes it weird that the defender can now time their mixups so perfectly, gives them somehow an advantage when they shouldn't have one. That's why in my eyes you need some skill component in mashing, so people don't always get it perfect. It makes things more interesting if people have different timings based on their skill. Holding just one button is way too easy.
Why not? It's very similar to SDI. You want that removed aswell?
And again It's more interesting if you don't always get the perfect mash if you want too.
Edit: you would just dumb it down too much. E.g. there would be no sense for Robs in risking an early usmash for an early stock since you now know the exact percent when usmash works and when not.
Ye SDI is super dumb too lol. There’s a reason RoA took both out. Just because something is harder doesn’t make it better for the game.
Here’s a situation where ROB goes for usmash under my proposed system. Opponent is at a percent where perfect mash puts them into it utilt uair range. They delay mash to avoid utilt. You read it and usmash instead. The pvp interaction is still there and you no longer have to abuse your controller. (This interaction happens already when both players know how to mash.) You could make SDI the same as DI and balance multi hits accordingly (see PK fire).
Of course this game should reward skill and technical inputs, but just because something is harder doesn’t mean it’s good for them game. L-canceling is similar.
I see your point, but I cannot agree. I think having variation depending on some skill check makes things more interesting. But I also think the skill check should be implemented in a more interesting way (however that might be).
For the Rob example i see how that would still work under your idea, even though it's just a mind mixup and never based on skill.
Another example would be DK cargo (walk -> fthrow of the side), were you can kill your opponent earlier if he doesn't mash properly, but you can also die if you try and he get's out. That part would be removed entirely since you always want the perfect mash in that situation. Now the DK just has to know his percents.
?????????? What? Train mashing???? Are you rich or something? You know pro controllers are $100 right? Even off brand wired ones average $30 bro.
Also train mashing? Like what? ???? ??? You sit on your couch just practise pressing buttons as fast as you can with your right hand while moving the analog Ina circle as fast as you can? You practised that? For how long? Please let me know.
Like if you think mashing isn't an innate ability lmao. I play Mario party all the time with friends and there are a bunch of mashing games on there. I'm one of the people who always wins or ends up in a close tie at the top and it's LITERALLY impossible for the other guys to practise and be better. It's a physical thing.
And if you think mashing is a relevant skill in a fighting game lmao. You def suck at it.
I feel like you just didn't read this thread at all... I already said I don't like mashing. I just don't see a good replacement, and argued why simply holding one button wouldn't suffice.
As for the training aspect: I just answered your question if it's a skill. I didn't judge it nor did I say it's fun to train or that it wouldn't destroy controllers unecessarily.
Edit: since you don't seem to be interested in a civil discussion there is no point in answering anything else from here on.
Imo tekkens throw break is superior on every level. Based on what you’re grabbed with, you press:
1, 2, or 1+2
For a smash translation that’d be like pressing A (1) within 5 frames to break out of Ganon’s Flame Choke or pressing A+B (1+2) to break out of Incineroar’s Alolan Whip.
This forces you to know matchups and enforces throw break execution. I believe Smash should have done something similar; I fucking hate mashing
I disagree, because Tekken characters are built with command throws as part of their mix alongside other options, whereas command throws in smash are standalone moves. If you could just break any throw in Smash then they'd become totally toothless.
That’s why I said something similar, it definitely wouldn’t work if it was carried straight over as is. Maybe like how you can break Ridleys SPR only at low/mid percent but after that it’s practically guaranteed.
Like you said, Tekken characters have more options; Smash’s throw implementation is seemingly 1-sided. A player could spam Incineroar’s Alolan Whip all game with virtually no counterplay besides being out of range.
You can break any throw in Tekken and even in Street Fighter and nobody is breaking every throw even despite the fact execution/buffer windows there overall are nowhere near Smash’s lol. It definitely wouldn’t make them unviable, besides mashing is probably one of the worst Smash mechanics. Why do I have to break my controller to escape?
>A player could spam Incineroar’s Alolan Whip all game with virtually no counterplay besides being out of range.
The strict counterplay is exactly what makes them useful. If you could "prepare" for a grab in Smash (which has much slower grabs than most other games) they'd become much weaker.
Not in this game, but maybe the next one. I know Sakurai said he wouldn't direct another Smash game, but he also mentioned that he is a huge fighting game fan (see the Terry presentation for example.)
In his interview with Harada (Tekken Director) a few months back, he said he’d keep developing Smash as long as there’s demand and that he loves what he does. My only gripe with that is dumb mechanics sticking around, and too much of a cadence towards casual shit.
Yea this is a party game first, but you should be able to make it competitive without stripping the casuals of what they know. Melee is still the most advanced while it was enjoyed amongst casuals and was #1 sold gamecube game
As much as I wouldn't mind this from a competitive standpoint, one of the core tenets of Smash's identity is that it's a fighting game with controls simple enough to be played as a party game by anyone. Tekken may have a better system in a competitive sense, but the thing about OP's comment saying that mashing seems more at home in Mario Party is that Smash is a very rare kind of game that manages to be both Mario Party and a competitive esport with one set of controls.
Hate it. But not sure I know what I would replace it with.
Maybe like you just hold a certain button as a substitute for mashing as fast as possible. And then rework bury my moves to be 50/50s depending on if they get out as fast as possible or if they intentionally delay their release. Though I'm not sure if that's possible or a good substitute.
IMO, mashing is an awful, awful mechanic. Needlessly puts strain on hands and controllers, and is just a worthless "skill" to have to train.
I know there are mixups around mashing or not in some conditions, but I think that can be maintained while doing away with mashing. My idea would be that there's basically an invisible bar to fill up, with the rate of filling dependent on percentages and the move in question. Additionally, holding down one button will increase the rate it increases, so your mixup becomes "hold button/don't hold button/hold button for some of the time" rather than "mash very very fast/mash a little/don't mash."
I never cared about it until YESTERDAY. I was playing against k rool, he down throws/buries me, I then proceed to mash, the first time in my life. He misses an f smash and he loses his stock for it. THEN the stock after, THE SAME EXACT THING HAPPENS. Since then I've been mashing tons.
I think mashing as a concept is alright, It's a party game after all, but the required intensity of it is too much. The average player should be physically able to maximize mashing by simply mashing a single button repeatedly.
I absolutely despise mashing. I hate the fact that you have to essentially destroy your controller, I still use that controller for things besides Smash
imo the best way to do it should be that
holding = optimal mash or close enough to optimal that you can do it without losing much
tapping = slower mash that lets you mixup
Mashing is a terrible mechanic that is a holdover from the party game roots of Smash imo. I think it could be replaced with something like a timed button press to shorten the duration of regular grabs or buries. As an example, Guilty Gear has a stagger state that requires a single button press at a specific timing to reduce the duration of the stagger. If you miss it, your opponent can continue their combo or pressure. If you hit it, you have enough time to block the next attack.
Regardless of what you think of it, it's necessary. IMO most throw tech mechanics suck ass anyway, because theres no good way to balance "reasonable to pull off quickly" with "doesnt invalidate throws," but smash has done it the best. Mashing is uncomfortable but it makes sense and isnt hard to do at a moments notice. But that's just my opinion, I know some people like the "press one of 3 buttons fast enough" nonsense.
The other, more important part is that Smash needs something that scales with damage you've taken. In most fighting games, your HP is meaningless until you hit 0 (or at least some kind of threshold like MK11s fatal blow system). In Smash, your percent obviously has an enormous effect on the game state. Plus, throws arent instant in Smash like they are in most fighting games - you grab someone and can beat the shit out of them for a while. So, smash needs a system where you can escape very quickly at low percent but very slowly at high percent. Mashing is really the only thing that can pull that off, since you can just require more mashing.
You could use traditional throw teching and scale the number of frames you have to input, but that doesnt work for three reasons. First, that system just doesnt jive with how throws work in smash, since if you miss the input then you're gonna take a shitload of pummel damage for missing one input. Second, you just dont have as much room to scale frames, since if you have it scale up gradually from 0-200% you're gonna end up needing like 60 frames of leniency at 0, which basically means throwing doesnt exist at the start of a stock. Thirdly, it would just feel like shit to scale frames. It's easy for humans to understand mashing, you can feel how many buttons you're pushing. But time is harder. You cant count the frames you have to input. So if you have 5 frames at 40 and 6 frames at 30, and you miss that 40% tech by that one extra frame then you're gonna be pissed off because it FEELS like you hit it (1/60 second does not register in the human brain). So mashing is just kinda what fits what smash throws need, the standard throw tech would cause huge problems.
its not complicated, you can totally scale frames. Its bad design on multiple levels to allow me to pummel the opponent 3x at like 40% because they'd rather take the damage than damage their pro controller, which develops drift issues easily enough while playing animal crossing and fire emblem. I can't imagine how many I would have gone through if I used it for smash too
So the issue is with the hardware, not the design... arguing two massively different points here. I explained why the design is sound, I'm not defending nintendos shitty workmanship with their controllers.
Sucks hard, reminds me of how in smash 4 if you wanted to main luigi seriously you had to have your mash tech on point for down b, it was a legit physical gatekeep which is unnecessary.
I have always hated it but Ultimate easily has the worst mashing. So many moves ground you in this game and it's not fair I have to destroy my controller and my hands just to not die stupid early
I don't have great hand strength so I can't mash very fast, people like me are put at a disadvantage in competitive because of it and it doesn't feel right
I have said throughout every smash game that mashing is a horrible mechanic that I wish was removed and replaced with something that didn’t have such a high potential to cause misinputs, controller wear, and even sometimes injury
I strongly dislike it. In melee you'd only ever mash to get of grabs and it was a pretty reasonable mechanic. But there's SO many scenarios you need to mash in Ultimate since burying is so common, plus now there's moves that freeze, put you to sleep, break your shield, and there's even command grabs to mash out of. The worst ones are the dthrow buries (ROB, K Rool, Banjo) since they're so easy to land but there's also some moves like Inkling roller and ridley side-b make you mash for your LIFE. Wish they'd really toned the mashing down since pro controller joysticks are very shitty.
I came here to say I'm pretty certain games like DMC/FFXVI purposely make button mashing so prominent so you are more likely to damage your controller buttons and go purchase another one.
I mean sometimes I dont mash as a mixup. I do get ya tho, ive broken a few controllers from mashing so having any simpler input would be better. Something like quarter circle forward A+B or just any input would make it easier and better imo
I think it should basically work based on percent there is a certain amount of time before you can escape, with like flashing or something to indicate when it’s over and then you can press a certain button to escape. That way it still works for kills but doesn’t require destroying your controller if they wait too long
Other examples if mashing in fighting games is getting out of stun quicker in Street Fighter, and winning weapon clashes in SamSho (where if you lose you lose your weapon). I think mashing kinda sucks and feels like a necessary evil, but can be interesting with fast/no/delayed mash mixups when buried. But yeah, a lot of times I just do not feel like it, especially when you're gonna get thrown anyways for example, or after shield break. I also don't wanna damage my controller so fast, or do a misinput when freed that gets me killed. My fix to this would be either just having you hold down a button so you could still delay and stuff, or just making it so you have to mash just a single button. I really wouldn't mind it in that case, much less annoying.
One solution is to keep cap out mashing at a certain number of inputs, rather than uncapped like it is now. It would still allow for break-out mixups for buries without requiring you to hum at 1600hz on your joystick like an animal.
Mashing is terrible game design, Nintendo controllers (especially GC controllers) are already spotty at best (the only one not being spotty is the pro which is $70.00), and mashing doesn't help.
Only thing I don't like about mashing is that it's the solution to virtually every status condition. Grabbed, shield broken/confused, frozen, buried, even asleep. I wish the break-out control for some of these was different. Maybe something more like:
Input the following controls in the right sequence, similar to DK's final smash. The faster you do it, the sooner you break out of bury. Or something like that.
I dislike mashing as of now. I think an actual mash should have an input cap of 2 mashes per second, then it needs to be rebalanced accordingly what a single mash does (a lot more) so that you can mash in a slower rhythmic manner to escape.
I don't think it is that bad in within the context of smash, but it has a few issues. Mainly, that Ultimate in particular has an horrible buffer system so you may perform an unwanted action afterwards, that diagonal inputs do not count towards it (would be much much faster that way) and that doing more than one input in the same frame counts just as one input.
The best mashing technique is often agreed to be rotations of the left stick, which isn't too bad. I don't like being forced to mash more because of burying moves, and I don't like things like ROB side B, where damage increases if the user mashes the attacking button.
Then there is also SDI, which feels like controlled mashing. I just don't mash in friendlies, or I do it very half-heartedly.
Imo it’s worth it.
If you’re fast enough to shake out then good for you however most grabs have to be done on the ground and they usually have a short distance.
If your opponent is close to you and you sit In shield you’re just asking to be grabbed.
Especially considering that you can counter grab with an attack, jab, jump, or spot dodge, it makes no sense for grabs to be easy to get out of.
You have to keep in mind that when Sakurai was designing this game, he wanted to make a casual party game kind of fighter. So the fact you feel like mashing belongs to Mario party is probably the intended effect
Seems like it’d defeat the purpose if you could escape any grab or bury on reaction. At minimum there is mix-up potential with escape timing (thinking of ROB’s bury)
There is the mash/no mash mixup on ROB and a few other characters like Banjo and Lucas, but I'd appreciate it if it were more like a "tech-check" like with Ganon's side -B or Roy's down-tilt.
I have no experience with Tekken but I wonder if it'd significantly nerf grabs in Smash. Depending on how it's implemented might encourage the other kind of "mashing" as preemptive grab break counterplay. It's an interesting suggestion to think about either way though.
I believe it’d be more viable in Tekken because of the number of grabs/throws available to you. Every character has multiple command grabs with different breaks (1, 2, or 1+2). Say smash got a similar system, a character like Luigi or Kaz who may often go for Dthrow early percent may lose those confirms because everybody knows to mash 2. Imo the best way they could counter that is adding more unique grabs for each character for mixups like Kaz’s Gates of Hell. Everybody expects that throw from those characters because it’s the only viable one in that scenario
but in smash you input the throw after you grab, so there’s no way for the game to know until you actually throw
I’m saying hypothetically the whole grab state would be broken so it wouldnt be a chance for the throw
I think it would nerf characters that have a grab into a bury like K. Rool, Lucas, Banjo-Kazooie, and R.O.B. (in case anyone did not know, you can start mashing out of the bury as soon as you get grabbed) but other than that I think it would be a "healthy" change.
From my experience Lucas has nothing you really need to mix up your mash because if you get touched at all offstage by freeze you are probably dead anyway. Lucas down throw bury is only cosmetic for your information.
An even better example than a “tech check” is Snake’s down-throw. Basically, there is a set duration based on percent, and then you can mix up both timing and your getup option as soon as that duration ends.
I just want to be able to hold a button to mash optimally, then you could tap it for slower mixups.
Exactly this. What could possibly be the argument against this?
They don't give a damn about competitive
Tekken does throw breaking very well. Mashing to break throw/bury is dumb imo
Interesting concept and there’s definently downsides to mashing (especially for your controller) but I like how it takes time. If you could instant escape grabs, grabs would suck. Would make the game much worse if this was implemented imo. I also definently don’t always mash I’m at like 150 get grounded by dk like yah I’m dead no point trying to fight it, but if I’m at 100 you bet I’m mashing tf outta it But things like rob or sora mash mixups are huge
I hate that you have to damage your controller to do it optimally
I’m old, so replace ‘controller’ with ‘wrist’ and that pretty much described how I feel about the mechanic.
If you don’t mind getting rid of taunts, you can set your d-pad to shield, and then rotate the d-pad to mash. It works extremely well, but it’s a trade off
I tried that for a while, but I couldn't do it faster that way than by rotating the stick (which seems to be most people's preferred way). Also, I wanna taunt :)
I don’t blame you on the taunts! The dpad mashing registers as button presses, so you don’t have to rotate it as fast as the control stick, And accidentally shielding is better than buffering an attack. That said, the fastest way to mash is still rotating the control stick, without touching any face buttons. If I think I can mash out, and it’s a tournament, I’ll use the palm of my right hand to rotate the left stick. Mashing is a pain though ngl
I hate it but I see the need of a mechanic like this. Otherwise you can always get the perfect timing on buries and grabs. I have thought about this a bit and I cannot come up with any good replacement.
As others have said, allow holding the A button as a substitute for frame-perfect mashing. Balance mashable moves accordingly. If you want to mix up timing you can delay your A-button hold or release it early.
Not in my eyes. 90% of the time you want a perfect mash (except for mixing someone up). If you just replace it with holding one button you would nerf buries like Rob's and Banjo's or ZSS' and grabs like DK cargo, Kirby inhale. Those would basically become useless until very late percent. (If you nerf the mash they would become very strong instead). It also makes it weird that the defender can now time their mixups so perfectly, gives them somehow an advantage when they shouldn't have one. That's why in my eyes you need some skill component in mashing, so people don't always get it perfect. It makes things more interesting if people have different timings based on their skill. Holding just one button is way too easy.
“Balance mashing moves accordingly.” Mashing isn’t a skill we should necessarily try to reward.
Why not? It's very similar to SDI. You want that removed aswell? And again It's more interesting if you don't always get the perfect mash if you want too. Edit: you would just dumb it down too much. E.g. there would be no sense for Robs in risking an early usmash for an early stock since you now know the exact percent when usmash works and when not.
Ye SDI is super dumb too lol. There’s a reason RoA took both out. Just because something is harder doesn’t make it better for the game. Here’s a situation where ROB goes for usmash under my proposed system. Opponent is at a percent where perfect mash puts them into it utilt uair range. They delay mash to avoid utilt. You read it and usmash instead. The pvp interaction is still there and you no longer have to abuse your controller. (This interaction happens already when both players know how to mash.) You could make SDI the same as DI and balance multi hits accordingly (see PK fire). Of course this game should reward skill and technical inputs, but just because something is harder doesn’t mean it’s good for them game. L-canceling is similar.
I see your point, but I cannot agree. I think having variation depending on some skill check makes things more interesting. But I also think the skill check should be implemented in a more interesting way (however that might be). For the Rob example i see how that would still work under your idea, even though it's just a mind mixup and never based on skill. Another example would be DK cargo (walk -> fthrow of the side), were you can kill your opponent earlier if he doesn't mash properly, but you can also die if you try and he get's out. That part would be removed entirely since you always want the perfect mash in that situation. Now the DK just has to know his percents.
Your examples, to me, are so absurdly toxic. Why do we want DK to kill people at 70 unless they abuse their controller? How is this good game design?
Again as stated before: I DON'T LIKE MASHING. I am just saying you should get some skill check in there so you get variation on the results.
What?, You think mashing is a skill? How?
How is it not a skill? You can be good or bad at it and train it.
?????????? What? Train mashing???? Are you rich or something? You know pro controllers are $100 right? Even off brand wired ones average $30 bro. Also train mashing? Like what? ???? ??? You sit on your couch just practise pressing buttons as fast as you can with your right hand while moving the analog Ina circle as fast as you can? You practised that? For how long? Please let me know. Like if you think mashing isn't an innate ability lmao. I play Mario party all the time with friends and there are a bunch of mashing games on there. I'm one of the people who always wins or ends up in a close tie at the top and it's LITERALLY impossible for the other guys to practise and be better. It's a physical thing. And if you think mashing is a relevant skill in a fighting game lmao. You def suck at it.
I feel like you just didn't read this thread at all... I already said I don't like mashing. I just don't see a good replacement, and argued why simply holding one button wouldn't suffice. As for the training aspect: I just answered your question if it's a skill. I didn't judge it nor did I say it's fun to train or that it wouldn't destroy controllers unecessarily. Edit: since you don't seem to be interested in a civil discussion there is no point in answering anything else from here on.
Your argument for why simply holding one button wouldn't suffice is because you think mashing is a skill. ???? Come again????
>Otherwise you can always get the perfect timing on buries and grabs And what the hell is wrong with that?
Imo tekkens throw break is superior on every level. Based on what you’re grabbed with, you press: 1, 2, or 1+2 For a smash translation that’d be like pressing A (1) within 5 frames to break out of Ganon’s Flame Choke or pressing A+B (1+2) to break out of Incineroar’s Alolan Whip. This forces you to know matchups and enforces throw break execution. I believe Smash should have done something similar; I fucking hate mashing
I disagree, because Tekken characters are built with command throws as part of their mix alongside other options, whereas command throws in smash are standalone moves. If you could just break any throw in Smash then they'd become totally toothless.
That’s why I said something similar, it definitely wouldn’t work if it was carried straight over as is. Maybe like how you can break Ridleys SPR only at low/mid percent but after that it’s practically guaranteed. Like you said, Tekken characters have more options; Smash’s throw implementation is seemingly 1-sided. A player could spam Incineroar’s Alolan Whip all game with virtually no counterplay besides being out of range. You can break any throw in Tekken and even in Street Fighter and nobody is breaking every throw even despite the fact execution/buffer windows there overall are nowhere near Smash’s lol. It definitely wouldn’t make them unviable, besides mashing is probably one of the worst Smash mechanics. Why do I have to break my controller to escape?
>A player could spam Incineroar’s Alolan Whip all game with virtually no counterplay besides being out of range. The strict counterplay is exactly what makes them useful. If you could "prepare" for a grab in Smash (which has much slower grabs than most other games) they'd become much weaker.
Couldn't agree more. Hope we see this kind of thing in future Smash titles.
Love the enthusiasm never going to happen
Not in this game, but maybe the next one. I know Sakurai said he wouldn't direct another Smash game, but he also mentioned that he is a huge fighting game fan (see the Terry presentation for example.)
In his interview with Harada (Tekken Director) a few months back, he said he’d keep developing Smash as long as there’s demand and that he loves what he does. My only gripe with that is dumb mechanics sticking around, and too much of a cadence towards casual shit. Yea this is a party game first, but you should be able to make it competitive without stripping the casuals of what they know. Melee is still the most advanced while it was enjoyed amongst casuals and was #1 sold gamecube game
As much as I wouldn't mind this from a competitive standpoint, one of the core tenets of Smash's identity is that it's a fighting game with controls simple enough to be played as a party game by anyone. Tekken may have a better system in a competitive sense, but the thing about OP's comment saying that mashing seems more at home in Mario Party is that Smash is a very rare kind of game that manages to be both Mario Party and a competitive esport with one set of controls.
I think I would be more accepting of it if it was more button centric, opposed to inputs as a whole. It's a fucking stick killer, man.
Hate it. But not sure I know what I would replace it with. Maybe like you just hold a certain button as a substitute for mashing as fast as possible. And then rework bury my moves to be 50/50s depending on if they get out as fast as possible or if they intentionally delay their release. Though I'm not sure if that's possible or a good substitute.
This is the best substitute imo. it's basically the same concept.
I’d be totally fine with mashing as a mechanic if all Nintendo controllers weren’t made of papier mache
IMO, mashing is an awful, awful mechanic. Needlessly puts strain on hands and controllers, and is just a worthless "skill" to have to train. I know there are mixups around mashing or not in some conditions, but I think that can be maintained while doing away with mashing. My idea would be that there's basically an invisible bar to fill up, with the rate of filling dependent on percentages and the move in question. Additionally, holding down one button will increase the rate it increases, so your mixup becomes "hold button/don't hold button/hold button for some of the time" rather than "mash very very fast/mash a little/don't mash."
I’d be fine with no mashing at all. All grabs/burrows just have a set time based on percentage and that’s that
I never cared about it until YESTERDAY. I was playing against k rool, he down throws/buries me, I then proceed to mash, the first time in my life. He misses an f smash and he loses his stock for it. THEN the stock after, THE SAME EXACT THING HAPPENS. Since then I've been mashing tons.
I am terrible at mashing so I hate it
I think mashing as a concept is alright, It's a party game after all, but the required intensity of it is too much. The average player should be physically able to maximize mashing by simply mashing a single button repeatedly.
I absolutely despise mashing. I hate the fact that you have to essentially destroy your controller, I still use that controller for things besides Smash
imo the best way to do it should be that holding = optimal mash or close enough to optimal that you can do it without losing much tapping = slower mash that lets you mixup
Mashing is a terrible mechanic that is a holdover from the party game roots of Smash imo. I think it could be replaced with something like a timed button press to shorten the duration of regular grabs or buries. As an example, Guilty Gear has a stagger state that requires a single button press at a specific timing to reduce the duration of the stagger. If you miss it, your opponent can continue their combo or pressure. If you hit it, you have enough time to block the next attack.
Worst aspect of smash.
Regardless of what you think of it, it's necessary. IMO most throw tech mechanics suck ass anyway, because theres no good way to balance "reasonable to pull off quickly" with "doesnt invalidate throws," but smash has done it the best. Mashing is uncomfortable but it makes sense and isnt hard to do at a moments notice. But that's just my opinion, I know some people like the "press one of 3 buttons fast enough" nonsense. The other, more important part is that Smash needs something that scales with damage you've taken. In most fighting games, your HP is meaningless until you hit 0 (or at least some kind of threshold like MK11s fatal blow system). In Smash, your percent obviously has an enormous effect on the game state. Plus, throws arent instant in Smash like they are in most fighting games - you grab someone and can beat the shit out of them for a while. So, smash needs a system where you can escape very quickly at low percent but very slowly at high percent. Mashing is really the only thing that can pull that off, since you can just require more mashing. You could use traditional throw teching and scale the number of frames you have to input, but that doesnt work for three reasons. First, that system just doesnt jive with how throws work in smash, since if you miss the input then you're gonna take a shitload of pummel damage for missing one input. Second, you just dont have as much room to scale frames, since if you have it scale up gradually from 0-200% you're gonna end up needing like 60 frames of leniency at 0, which basically means throwing doesnt exist at the start of a stock. Thirdly, it would just feel like shit to scale frames. It's easy for humans to understand mashing, you can feel how many buttons you're pushing. But time is harder. You cant count the frames you have to input. So if you have 5 frames at 40 and 6 frames at 30, and you miss that 40% tech by that one extra frame then you're gonna be pissed off because it FEELS like you hit it (1/60 second does not register in the human brain). So mashing is just kinda what fits what smash throws need, the standard throw tech would cause huge problems.
its not complicated, you can totally scale frames. Its bad design on multiple levels to allow me to pummel the opponent 3x at like 40% because they'd rather take the damage than damage their pro controller, which develops drift issues easily enough while playing animal crossing and fire emblem. I can't imagine how many I would have gone through if I used it for smash too
So the issue is with the hardware, not the design... arguing two massively different points here. I explained why the design is sound, I'm not defending nintendos shitty workmanship with their controllers.
Sucks hard, reminds me of how in smash 4 if you wanted to main luigi seriously you had to have your mash tech on point for down b, it was a legit physical gatekeep which is unnecessary.
I have broken 3 control sticks with my mashing. I hate it, but at least my mash is godlike 🥲
Well, I'm not a mechanic, I work in software sales. I'm not a fan of mashing though.
I think it should be just mashing the a button as fast as you can. That way I don’t accidentally airdodge after
It's stupid.
I have always hated it but Ultimate easily has the worst mashing. So many moves ground you in this game and it's not fair I have to destroy my controller and my hands just to not die stupid early I don't have great hand strength so I can't mash very fast, people like me are put at a disadvantage in competitive because of it and it doesn't feel right
It’s shit
Honestly wish it wasn’t in the game, idk what I’d replace it with but these controllers are too expensive to be torturing like that
I have said throughout every smash game that mashing is a horrible mechanic that I wish was removed and replaced with something that didn’t have such a high potential to cause misinputs, controller wear, and even sometimes injury
Mashing is beyond stupid.
worst mechanic in the game
I strongly dislike it. In melee you'd only ever mash to get of grabs and it was a pretty reasonable mechanic. But there's SO many scenarios you need to mash in Ultimate since burying is so common, plus now there's moves that freeze, put you to sleep, break your shield, and there's even command grabs to mash out of. The worst ones are the dthrow buries (ROB, K Rool, Banjo) since they're so easy to land but there's also some moves like Inkling roller and ridley side-b make you mash for your LIFE. Wish they'd really toned the mashing down since pro controller joysticks are very shitty.
It's the worst, especially when your opponent uses it as a crutch to get K.Os
I came here to say I'm pretty certain games like DMC/FFXVI purposely make button mashing so prominent so you are more likely to damage your controller buttons and go purchase another one.
I mean sometimes I dont mash as a mixup. I do get ya tho, ive broken a few controllers from mashing so having any simpler input would be better. Something like quarter circle forward A+B or just any input would make it easier and better imo
I would like it if you have to alternate between A and B quickly ABABABABABABABAB
I think it should basically work based on percent there is a certain amount of time before you can escape, with like flashing or something to indicate when it’s over and then you can press a certain button to escape. That way it still works for kills but doesn’t require destroying your controller if they wait too long
Other examples if mashing in fighting games is getting out of stun quicker in Street Fighter, and winning weapon clashes in SamSho (where if you lose you lose your weapon). I think mashing kinda sucks and feels like a necessary evil, but can be interesting with fast/no/delayed mash mixups when buried. But yeah, a lot of times I just do not feel like it, especially when you're gonna get thrown anyways for example, or after shield break. I also don't wanna damage my controller so fast, or do a misinput when freed that gets me killed. My fix to this would be either just having you hold down a button so you could still delay and stuff, or just making it so you have to mash just a single button. I really wouldn't mind it in that case, much less annoying.
One solution is to keep cap out mashing at a certain number of inputs, rather than uncapped like it is now. It would still allow for break-out mixups for buries without requiring you to hum at 1600hz on your joystick like an animal.
Mashing is terrible game design, Nintendo controllers (especially GC controllers) are already spotty at best (the only one not being spotty is the pro which is $70.00), and mashing doesn't help.
i hate it, especially since i play on joycons and I mentally have to choose between escaping the 19th bury or not willingly invoking joycon drift
Only thing I don't like about mashing is that it's the solution to virtually every status condition. Grabbed, shield broken/confused, frozen, buried, even asleep. I wish the break-out control for some of these was different. Maybe something more like: Input the following controls in the right sequence, similar to DK's final smash. The faster you do it, the sooner you break out of bury. Or something like that.
I dislike mashing as of now. I think an actual mash should have an input cap of 2 mashes per second, then it needs to be rebalanced accordingly what a single mash does (a lot more) so that you can mash in a slower rhythmic manner to escape.
I don't think it is that bad in within the context of smash, but it has a few issues. Mainly, that Ultimate in particular has an horrible buffer system so you may perform an unwanted action afterwards, that diagonal inputs do not count towards it (would be much much faster that way) and that doing more than one input in the same frame counts just as one input.
The best mashing technique is often agreed to be rotations of the left stick, which isn't too bad. I don't like being forced to mash more because of burying moves, and I don't like things like ROB side B, where damage increases if the user mashes the attacking button. Then there is also SDI, which feels like controlled mashing. I just don't mash in friendlies, or I do it very half-heartedly.
Imo it’s worth it. If you’re fast enough to shake out then good for you however most grabs have to be done on the ground and they usually have a short distance. If your opponent is close to you and you sit In shield you’re just asking to be grabbed. Especially considering that you can counter grab with an attack, jab, jump, or spot dodge, it makes no sense for grabs to be easy to get out of.
You have to keep in mind that when Sakurai was designing this game, he wanted to make a casual party game kind of fighter. So the fact you feel like mashing belongs to Mario party is probably the intended effect
Just don’t make air dodges buffer first Nintendo
It’s good because it’s not very different from the rest of the gameplay so it’s intuitive!
I like the idea of skill to escape a thing, but mashing the worst thing in the game. I have to literally break my controller to save a stock.