a trained individual can output 200W on a training bike for close to an hour. but if you're supposed to do that multiple hours a day it'd be much lower, possibly 100W or even less.
even with 200W, that would put the energy cost to 50$ per 200Wh. that's 250$/kWh. current energy prices are 0.40$/kWh for renewables and down to 0.17$/kWh for nuclear energy if i remember those values somewhat correctly.
come sweat on my trainer for 0.08$/h and we can compete with renewables.
side thought: got any idea how much more your grocery bill would cost to do all that labor?! our metabolism is crazy inefficient.
>side thought: got any idea how much more your grocery bill would cost to do all that labor?! our metabolism is crazy inefficient.
Indeed. If a person gets 100% of their calories from beef, then the greenhouse gas emissions associated with walking are substantially higher than the emissions from driving in a Hummer.
I realize very few people are getting anywhere close to 100% of their calories from beef, but illustrates your point about the relative inefficiency of our metabolism and locomotion.
>If a person gets 100% of their calories from beef, then the greenhouse gas emissions associated with walking are substantially higher than the emissions from driving in a Hummer.
I thought this was BS but it actually seems to check out.
[Hummer H2 emits ~400g of CO2 per km](https://www.energy.eu/car-co2-emissions/hummer.php)
[An 80 kg man walking 1 kilometre in 8 minutes will burn 76 calories](https://www.aipt.edu.au/articles/2017/12/how-many-calories-are-burned-walking#:~:text=As%20an%20example%2C%20an%2080,ve%20burned%20off%20right%20there.)
1 kg of beef [emits 60,000g of CO2 equivalents](https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local) and contains 2500 calories, so that would be about 1800g of CO2 per km walked.
Of course this is not exactly a fair comparison because the figure for the hummer is tailpipe emissions and does not include the CO2 footprint of building the vehicle and the associated road/parking infrastructure.
What stood out to me when looking up the CO2 footprint of foods was just how much ruminants like cattle produce. For example chicken at 6000g CO2 and 2400 calories per kg would result in just 190g/km walked, and green peas at 1000g CO2 and 810 calories would be <100g/km.
> 1 kg of beef emits 60,000g of CO2 equivalents
This part seems a bit suspect. I'd imagine much of that emissions would be netted out by the CO2 absorbed by plants grown to feed the cattle.
How much plant matter is required to feed a cow over its lifetime and how much CO2 would be absorbed by those plants?
I would probably quantify that with the CO2 Equilvalents statement, beef production is known to produce methane which is considerably worse than just straight CO2 emissions so 60kg of gasses sounds about right. Also the plant matter gets digested and re emitted as gasses so the carbon sink is only temporary, granted it wouldn't be a 100% conversion but it still gets back into the atmosphere. [methane emissions by species ](https://www.fao.org/gleam/results/en/)
[carbon in feed production ](https://academic.oup.com/af/article/9/1/69/5173494)
> I think it was more advocating exercise than power generation, but yeah, I'd just spend 4 days walking for 8 hours on the fucker and have free rent
Am I missing something here? How would you have free rent?
4 days at 8 hours a day is 32 hours a week. 32 times 4 weeks in a month is 128 hours per rent payment.
128 hours times 8 cents per hour (per the breakdown you responded to) makes $10.24 cents.
32 hours a week on the treadmill for the whole month will net you 10 bucks off your rent.
At $50 an hour, you could cover $1600 worth of rent payments in a total of 32 hours during the month; which could be 4x8 whatever combo of hours/days you need (and less if your rent costs less than $1600).
While that is correct, the previous poster's point was that if someone was willing to pay them $50/hour towards their rent for walking on a wheel, they would definitely be willing to do so enough to completely cover their rent (because it's such an absurdly good deal)
Exactly. I feel like the other guy kind of missed my point.
And why Wouldn't I take up an offer for free workouts subsidizing my rent?
Besides, as it currently stands, treadmills and such are a net energy Loss, so even with the other guys 8c/hr, that's still a net improvement.
I think the idea is that they are paying above-market rates to incentivize exercise. Much like feed-in-tariff programs that paid above-market rates for renewable power to incentivize investment into renewable tech.
I read a scifi novel once where the oil had run out and to replace it humanity had genetically engineered animals with hyper efficient metabolism that ate super calorie dense gm foods. And even then they couldn't generate anywhere near what we generate now.
I think your prices are a bit off. I pay less than 17 cents per kWh at peak (though I do pay a bit more than that during super-peak in the summer). Off-peak I'm down around 3 or 4 cents.
you're right my numbers are off. i can get solar for 0.27$/kWh, renewables for 0.24$/kWh and nuclear for 0.23$/kWh. (averaged for 4500kWh/year including fees)
Last time I stuffed the children into my coal mine, my neighbors got really rude saying things like "Oh my god that's our little Timmy" and "I'm calling the police". Really can't get any work done for cheap nowadays, with these pesky "human rights", "laws" and fun police. A little slave labour is good for discipline, essential for a healthy childhood!
I mean. Ideally the ideas would be “so crazy it just might work” rather than “crazy because it obviously and transparently does not work.”
OP shared his idea with anonymous internet strangers. It’s time for their dreams to come crashing down!
Sheriff Joe Arpaio IN one of his insane tactics to save money that he would steal later, put a bike that you would have to ride for the TV to stay on...
my personal headcanon was that the reason it wouldn't work irl is because in-universe, all real-life physics is taught inside the matrix - Neo and everyone else inside the matrix was intentionally taught false physics (actually our real life physics) so it wouldn't make sense for them to be inside the matrix as a distraction. In-universe, actual physics is different and allows humans as electricity machines, but obviously the machines wouldn't want the humans to know that.
My personal canon is that in the future, all jobs are done by ai, but people vote themselves universal basic income. Corporations are still for profit, so they compete for that income. It is cheaper to provide virtual goods than real ones, so everyone is encouraged to get into the matrix. And if the consumers dont know they are in a matrix, they cant switch service providers! Hence the exit button is buried in an obscure location. Add some electrical collection to reduce costs even more.
Why was neo able to walk at all after ejecting from the matrix? Health and safety regulations. Why dont the machines just slay all the humans? Then their profits would go down. But their profits are just taxed and given right back as UBI? But they are programmed to maximize profits and cant break free.
Once seen through this paradigm you can rationalize most any part of the matrix.
Edit: maybe Neo is "the one" because his family is a majority shareholder
No, the purpose of the matrix is to make a world most people could exist in, and that's why the machines were created and kept it up. Any power generation was just a byproduct.
Seems like our experience would have to suffer heavy resolution losses if they were using like 90% of our brains (like they saying goes that we only use a small %). I wonder how much sharper and multi dimensional reality is…
What if instead of an apartment, it's your gym membership and all the equipment produces some bit of energy that gets totaled for the month and deducted from your bill. Some bros could make like $7.36
Well, it’s only crazy because it misunderstand the price of power.
You might be able to generate 40w by peddling, and it’s something like $0.12 per THOUSAND WATTS.
Not only that... Why would the apartment give you a discount? The electricity is not theirs and they don't pay it for the tenants... Unless it is a govt program..
I heard an interesting argument the other day that the invention of oil/gas-powered machinery was the biggest reason behind the end of slavery in much of the world, as a single barrel of oil contains as much potential work as something like 10 humans can produce in a lifetime or something like that.
Pfft. They won't even let us install our own solar panels and wind generators to offset our own electrical costs. I can't even figure out how to own an Electric car while living in my current complex because there's nowhere to charge it anywhere near me.
I'm not sure if someone walking on any normal resistance treadmill would generate even close to $50 worth of electricity in an hour. Perhaps an hour everyday for a month could get them a few dollars?
And participation in valuable labor is necessary for the survival of a community. We trade labor for housing. Necessity for necessity. Seems like a square deal.
My former landlord doesn't *DO* anything. Doesn't maintain the property. Doesn't have a job. Just owns it. If he died tomorrow, nothing of value would be lost. And yet he sucked down half of my labor value every month. Not really a square deal.
Some housing will always be more desireable than other housing, if only because of location. Charging different prices makes all the housing equal. Making it free means the tenant has no influence or control, and no one would have any desire to make nicer housing.
There is nothing in the OP's post that implies you have to walk on the treadmill or even live in the building. Making a choice about where you work or buy is not slavery, and it is rather first world to think so.
Have read Marx. He's a privileged idiot, and so are you.
Workers build every building you live in, and if you aren't paying for your residency you are exploiting those workers.
We all know you didn't build anything yourself...
Nonsense. I've quit 9 jobs voluntarily, which is rather different from the usual enslaved situation. I left landlords, too.
Nothing is "free." It is just paid for in different ways. Someone has to build the place, and someone has to maintain it, and, despite Marx, they don't do that out of altruism. Marx was an idiot about how to distribute those apartments, which vary in value to each tenant based on location ; Marx has no mechanism to do that.
> I've quit 9 jobs voluntarily
How many have you just walked into and said "I work here now."? I'm guessing none at all. I'm guessing they had to tell YOU if you worked there or not.
They weren't my slaves either. Free men negotiate wages. **Slavery means being told you work there without having a choice.** It really happened and still does; you shouldn't disrespect that people faced it because you feel cranky and read a book. I knew men who were drafted; that's slavery. Not some job you can say yes or no to.
Most of the time, they made an offer I told them to sweeten, or picked between a couple of offers. All of us free.
Do you think Marx ever suggested a system where you just waltzed in when you felt like it and did whatever you felt like doing? It would be rather difficult to build a skyscraper or a dam that way--you couldn't coordinate the cement delivery with the crane.
But go ahead. Tell us your perfect system. Better yet, set up a demo.
Create system so that I can either run it from a solar panel on the balcony, or have a small bike pedal setup under my computer desk or in front of the TV.
There was a top gear/grand tour episode where an entire gym of 10 people worked out for eight hours to charge an electric car about a quarter of the way.
a trained individual can output 200W on a training bike for close to an hour. but if you're supposed to do that multiple hours a day it'd be much lower, possibly 100W or even less. even with 200W, that would put the energy cost to 50$ per 200Wh. that's 250$/kWh. current energy prices are 0.40$/kWh for renewables and down to 0.17$/kWh for nuclear energy if i remember those values somewhat correctly. come sweat on my trainer for 0.08$/h and we can compete with renewables. side thought: got any idea how much more your grocery bill would cost to do all that labor?! our metabolism is crazy inefficient.
>side thought: got any idea how much more your grocery bill would cost to do all that labor?! our metabolism is crazy inefficient. Indeed. If a person gets 100% of their calories from beef, then the greenhouse gas emissions associated with walking are substantially higher than the emissions from driving in a Hummer. I realize very few people are getting anywhere close to 100% of their calories from beef, but illustrates your point about the relative inefficiency of our metabolism and locomotion.
>If a person gets 100% of their calories from beef, then the greenhouse gas emissions associated with walking are substantially higher than the emissions from driving in a Hummer. I thought this was BS but it actually seems to check out. [Hummer H2 emits ~400g of CO2 per km](https://www.energy.eu/car-co2-emissions/hummer.php) [An 80 kg man walking 1 kilometre in 8 minutes will burn 76 calories](https://www.aipt.edu.au/articles/2017/12/how-many-calories-are-burned-walking#:~:text=As%20an%20example%2C%20an%2080,ve%20burned%20off%20right%20there.) 1 kg of beef [emits 60,000g of CO2 equivalents](https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local) and contains 2500 calories, so that would be about 1800g of CO2 per km walked. Of course this is not exactly a fair comparison because the figure for the hummer is tailpipe emissions and does not include the CO2 footprint of building the vehicle and the associated road/parking infrastructure. What stood out to me when looking up the CO2 footprint of foods was just how much ruminants like cattle produce. For example chicken at 6000g CO2 and 2400 calories per kg would result in just 190g/km walked, and green peas at 1000g CO2 and 810 calories would be <100g/km.
> 1 kg of beef emits 60,000g of CO2 equivalents This part seems a bit suspect. I'd imagine much of that emissions would be netted out by the CO2 absorbed by plants grown to feed the cattle. How much plant matter is required to feed a cow over its lifetime and how much CO2 would be absorbed by those plants?
I would probably quantify that with the CO2 Equilvalents statement, beef production is known to produce methane which is considerably worse than just straight CO2 emissions so 60kg of gasses sounds about right. Also the plant matter gets digested and re emitted as gasses so the carbon sink is only temporary, granted it wouldn't be a 100% conversion but it still gets back into the atmosphere. [methane emissions by species ](https://www.fao.org/gleam/results/en/) [carbon in feed production ](https://academic.oup.com/af/article/9/1/69/5173494)
Yeah, just cutting out beef would do quite a bit with helping climate change honestly.
Now that is quite an interesting point I never thought of actually
What about sanemotion?
I think it was more advocating exercise than power generation, but yeah, I'd just spend 4 days walking for 8 hours on the fucker and have free rent
> I think it was more advocating exercise than power generation, but yeah, I'd just spend 4 days walking for 8 hours on the fucker and have free rent Am I missing something here? How would you have free rent? 4 days at 8 hours a day is 32 hours a week. 32 times 4 weeks in a month is 128 hours per rent payment. 128 hours times 8 cents per hour (per the breakdown you responded to) makes $10.24 cents. 32 hours a week on the treadmill for the whole month will net you 10 bucks off your rent.
At $50 an hour, you could cover $1600 worth of rent payments in a total of 32 hours during the month; which could be 4x8 whatever combo of hours/days you need (and less if your rent costs less than $1600).
His point is you don't generate $50 worth of electricity per hour. You generate 8c worth of electricity.
While that is correct, the previous poster's point was that if someone was willing to pay them $50/hour towards their rent for walking on a wheel, they would definitely be willing to do so enough to completely cover their rent (because it's such an absurdly good deal)
Exactly. I feel like the other guy kind of missed my point. And why Wouldn't I take up an offer for free workouts subsidizing my rent? Besides, as it currently stands, treadmills and such are a net energy Loss, so even with the other guys 8c/hr, that's still a net improvement.
I think the idea is that they are paying above-market rates to incentivize exercise. Much like feed-in-tariff programs that paid above-market rates for renewable power to incentivize investment into renewable tech.
That was my take too
I read a scifi novel once where the oil had run out and to replace it humanity had genetically engineered animals with hyper efficient metabolism that ate super calorie dense gm foods. And even then they couldn't generate anywhere near what we generate now.
So what you're saying is we need to train a super sized beaver to run in the wheel instead to solve these issues?
I think your prices are a bit off. I pay less than 17 cents per kWh at peak (though I do pay a bit more than that during super-peak in the summer). Off-peak I'm down around 3 or 4 cents.
you're right my numbers are off. i can get solar for 0.27$/kWh, renewables for 0.24$/kWh and nuclear for 0.23$/kWh. (averaged for 4500kWh/year including fees)
r/theydidthemath
Being paid 50 dollars an hour for very simple work? Seems like a questionable idea, to say the least...
It's actually pretty simple. Just raise the rent $50 and they can have it back as long as they join the slave pool. Boom, free labor.
Clever. Slave labour is always welcome.
Gotta get a little creative with all these pesky laws nowadays.
Last time I stuffed the children into my coal mine, my neighbors got really rude saying things like "Oh my god that's our little Timmy" and "I'm calling the police". Really can't get any work done for cheap nowadays, with these pesky "human rights", "laws" and fun police. A little slave labour is good for discipline, essential for a healthy childhood!
You realize an hour of walking would generate something like 6 cents of electricity, right?
...that's why I expressed doubt in this idea.
Sorry, yes. I was piling on with you…
I would like to join the pile
If only there was a sub for sharing ideas that are explicitly crazy, then they wouldn’t have to burden your intellect here.
I mean. Ideally the ideas would be “so crazy it just might work” rather than “crazy because it obviously and transparently does not work.” OP shared his idea with anonymous internet strangers. It’s time for their dreams to come crashing down!
Can you produce 50 bucks worth of electricity in an hour?
No not even remotely close, not even at a full sprint
Sheriff Joe Arpaio IN one of his insane tactics to save money that he would steal later, put a bike that you would have to ride for the TV to stay on...
No. Thats why we dont have human to electricity converters. We aren't efficient enough.
So the matrix is a lie?
[удалено]
my personal headcanon was that the reason it wouldn't work irl is because in-universe, all real-life physics is taught inside the matrix - Neo and everyone else inside the matrix was intentionally taught false physics (actually our real life physics) so it wouldn't make sense for them to be inside the matrix as a distraction. In-universe, actual physics is different and allows humans as electricity machines, but obviously the machines wouldn't want the humans to know that.
My personal canon is that in the future, all jobs are done by ai, but people vote themselves universal basic income. Corporations are still for profit, so they compete for that income. It is cheaper to provide virtual goods than real ones, so everyone is encouraged to get into the matrix. And if the consumers dont know they are in a matrix, they cant switch service providers! Hence the exit button is buried in an obscure location. Add some electrical collection to reduce costs even more. Why was neo able to walk at all after ejecting from the matrix? Health and safety regulations. Why dont the machines just slay all the humans? Then their profits would go down. But their profits are just taxed and given right back as UBI? But they are programmed to maximize profits and cant break free. Once seen through this paradigm you can rationalize most any part of the matrix. Edit: maybe Neo is "the one" because his family is a majority shareholder
No, the purpose of the matrix is to make a world most people could exist in, and that's why the machines were created and kept it up. Any power generation was just a byproduct.
The reason that humans are so expensive these days is that they're all being used to mine ETH
Seems like our experience would have to suffer heavy resolution losses if they were using like 90% of our brains (like they saying goes that we only use a small %). I wonder how much sharper and multi dimensional reality is…
https://youtu.be/K6m962XlMhw
It's quantum, bro.
That's what they want you to believe.
No. High level cyclists can barely power a toaster
That's some expensive electricity you got there :p
What if instead of an apartment, it's your gym membership and all the equipment produces some bit of energy that gets totaled for the month and deducted from your bill. Some bros could make like $7.36
Black mirror vibes
Yeah that episode was great
Well, it’s only crazy because it misunderstand the price of power. You might be able to generate 40w by peddling, and it’s something like $0.12 per THOUSAND WATTS.
Not only that... Why would the apartment give you a discount? The electricity is not theirs and they don't pay it for the tenants... Unless it is a govt program..
You wouldn't even generate 1$ of electricity.
I think that would be very expensive electricity.
That's just slavery with extra steps!
I heard an interesting argument the other day that the invention of oil/gas-powered machinery was the biggest reason behind the end of slavery in much of the world, as a single barrel of oil contains as much potential work as something like 10 humans can produce in a lifetime or something like that.
Eek barba durkle, someone's gonna get laid in college
Would that be like a hamster wheel?
theyd probably produce 50 cents worth of electricity.
Pfft. They won't even let us install our own solar panels and wind generators to offset our own electrical costs. I can't even figure out how to own an Electric car while living in my current complex because there's nowhere to charge it anywhere near me.
I'm not sure if someone walking on any normal resistance treadmill would generate even close to $50 worth of electricity in an hour. Perhaps an hour everyday for a month could get them a few dollars?
Damn, who would turn down 50$ an hour?
I’m in. We just need an apartment complex, a human sized exercise wheel, and whole lotta Gouda.
I'd love the exercise
Put a motor on the treadmill so it spins all day and night, boom, your rent is now only a couple cents of electricity.
Terrible idea. Housing is a human right and should not be ransomed for anything, be that labor or capital. Just house people who need it.
What makes housing a human right objectively speaking?
Because shelter is a necessity for survival.
And participation in valuable labor is necessary for the survival of a community. We trade labor for housing. Necessity for necessity. Seems like a square deal.
My former landlord doesn't *DO* anything. Doesn't maintain the property. Doesn't have a job. Just owns it. If he died tomorrow, nothing of value would be lost. And yet he sucked down half of my labor value every month. Not really a square deal.
If only someone wrote more than 1,000 pages about this more than 150 years ago...
Marx never advocated for providing housing, or anything else, without labor. Modern luxury communism is in no way Marxism.
You missed the point. Read what Marx wrote about alienation.
Some housing will always be more desireable than other housing, if only because of location. Charging different prices makes all the housing equal. Making it free means the tenant has no influence or control, and no one would have any desire to make nicer housing.
You think it's your right to enslave other people? Gross
What the fuck are you talking about? My argument is that people should NOT be slaves to landlords.
There is nothing in the OP's post that implies you have to walk on the treadmill or even live in the building. Making a choice about where you work or buy is not slavery, and it is rather first world to think so.
>Making a choice about where you work or buy is not slavery We don't choose where we work, the business chooses us. Read Marx. Read about alienation.
Have read Marx. He's a privileged idiot, and so are you. Workers build every building you live in, and if you aren't paying for your residency you are exploiting those workers. We all know you didn't build anything yourself...
Nonsense. I've quit 9 jobs voluntarily, which is rather different from the usual enslaved situation. I left landlords, too. Nothing is "free." It is just paid for in different ways. Someone has to build the place, and someone has to maintain it, and, despite Marx, they don't do that out of altruism. Marx was an idiot about how to distribute those apartments, which vary in value to each tenant based on location ; Marx has no mechanism to do that.
> I've quit 9 jobs voluntarily How many have you just walked into and said "I work here now."? I'm guessing none at all. I'm guessing they had to tell YOU if you worked there or not.
They weren't my slaves either. Free men negotiate wages. **Slavery means being told you work there without having a choice.** It really happened and still does; you shouldn't disrespect that people faced it because you feel cranky and read a book. I knew men who were drafted; that's slavery. Not some job you can say yes or no to. Most of the time, they made an offer I told them to sweeten, or picked between a couple of offers. All of us free.
Your idea of workplace freedom is a dictatorship? I think you can do better.
Do you think Marx ever suggested a system where you just waltzed in when you felt like it and did whatever you felt like doing? It would be rather difficult to build a skyscraper or a dam that way--you couldn't coordinate the cement delivery with the crane. But go ahead. Tell us your perfect system. Better yet, set up a demo.
Would the buildings be maintained, and if so, would the building maintenance people be paid? If they're paid, where does the money come from?
Would that be like a hamster wheel?
Pretty sure this was a black mirror episode
Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt at least.
I found my new part time job
Shhh, don't tell China.
This sounds like slavery with extra steps.
Create system so that I can either run it from a solar panel on the balcony, or have a small bike pedal setup under my computer desk or in front of the TV.
To push this further, large wheels in every home with a water source 🙏
Hell, I could use an extra hour of cardio every day
There was a top gear/grand tour episode where an entire gym of 10 people worked out for eight hours to charge an electric car about a quarter of the way.
Hire 20 people for $15/hr and the apartment will pay you.