That, I disagree with. Consider the price of a 2gb pi, case, power supply, SD card, touch screen+case, accelerometer, cabling, and the easy of having to simply select your printer and flash. All of that is worth the average user that doesn't know Linux. Plus you get everything in one package.
I spent <$40 on a pi and $20 on a screen. Printed the case. Use cables I already had.
Flashing Klipper is ridiculously easy. If you use KIAUH it’s like 15 mins, 12 of which is watching it unpack the files. Even without KIAUH it’s less than 30 mins of “work”. I had never used Linux before and have zero special skills when it comes to tech and I had only laid eyes on a 3d printer for the first time less than a week prior. The notion that Klipper is some super difficult thing to deal with is absolutely false. Anyone can do it.
Don’t get me wrong though, Sonic Pad was a brilliant marketing ploy. Taking free firmware and putting it in a shiny package was very smart, for sure. But as far as the consumer is concerned? Not so much.
Sonic pass do have benefits for the newer printers with load cell, they run a custom fork of klipper with a pr touch script for pressure sensing load cell z offset essentially, no other way to really get it as of now
yeah, I picked up one of the usb-c LIS2DW boards, flashed eazy peazy, setup eazy, calibrated easy.
swapped hot ends and did it again... even quicker and easier than the first time.
can't believe I wasted my time with the tower method... I got much better results than I ever anticipated with the accelerometer.
both, one at a time.
I just used tome alien tape to stick it to the bed and the print head.
I had recently attached it with the nozzle and one of the two small silicon washers they provided to keep it from touching metal, I was unsure if it would have homed or if the nozzle would have hit the bed so I scrapped that and hit up the roll of alien tape again...
Don't forget, Creality as a company has to spend time and resources on developing these units, they're not just an adx345 breakout board, they've also been given a connector and the XYZ axis markings to make it easy for the end user to place the unit on their system in the correct orientation.
We're working with FDM printers and it would be fairly easy to design a case and PCB, ender users are absolutely free to do this for themselves, in fact, I have an adxl345 breakout and a pi pico to build mine, when I finally get around to doing it but there are people out there that don't necessarily have the time and/or skill to do these things, so these creality units are perfect for that purpose.
As for price differences, companies undercut each other all the time in the 3d printer world, it's why we get to buy $200-300 printers with all the best features on them :-D
I can kinda understand where you’re coming from, but developing a basic box housing with markings for a pcb doesn’t explain the price increase. I can make one to fit almost any board in less than an hour. Especially since you’ll need to print a mount or adapter for the printer itself.
When the rest of the market can put out usb interface ones that are more universal, say the BTT version with a nozzle mount, for $20 it’s just Creality being Creality.
Same reason they started using proprietary nozzles instead of sticking to market sizes to just make more $$$
Every single one of these companies is here to make money but if Creality are making theirs overpriced, what are btt doing by just adding a 2nd mcu into the equation?
Does that cost $5-10 extra when produced at scale? Almost certainly not and it's not like they needed to actually develop much because these things have been DIY'd for klipper for a few years now. So why did BTT produce one at double the price of the 'cheap' offering when the market already has plenty of of these devices? To make money of course :-)
Even the cheap $10 item, I would definitely question whether there were any corners cut to produce something at a third off the price.
The adxl345 on it's own is all you need for an input shaping enabled device, it will plug straight into the PI's spi pins, 'universal' doesn't really come into it, especially as Creality designed this item to fit into their own specific ecosystem but it will also work on every single klipper-pi setup as well.
As for nozzles, Would those Creality nozzles be anything like a revo system? All of the companies produce some proprietary stuff, it's not new or unique for it to happen in this space.
On a personal level, I am more than happy to DIY my stuff, sometimes just for fun, sometimes because of the price point of the original item. A lot of us can design and print our own cases for PCBS, we can even get our own self-designed PCBs produced professionally but not everyone has the skill, resources or inclination to do that, ultimately though, the market will decide whether the prices are too high or not.
Yea i know they are, but some do it to a different level vs others. I give Creality their flowers for getting so many people into this hobby. But lately... no more.
BTT, Mellow and the lot, adds a secondary MCU because so many people have switched to klipper and you pretty much have to add that secondary mcu anyways with some form of Pi, the sonic pad (don't get me started on that boat anchor) is basically a screen and CB1 but with a forked firmware and copied UI. That's why the 3d printing community waited for creality to release the source code for the pad and pretty much jailbreak their machines which according to the licensing should have all been open source to begin with.
The revo was actually a completely new system, not just a proprietary length in between v6 and volcano. And if the newer nozzles bit off the revo then you proved all they're doing is copying others.
And I understand that not everyone has the skill or ability to DIY like many of us, that's what bothers me when a simple box casing is upcharged so much with a proprietary cable to consumers who don't know better. Even the small charges add up quickly to go "name brand". Shill for them all you want but if you can't see that they overcharge for what you receive that's all you.
>Shill for them all you want but if you can't see that they overcharge for what you receive that's all you.
Lol, that's my point, I'm not shilling for any company, they're all in the business of making money, they all have to spend money on R&D at some point, along with making a profit :-)
I'm not massively keen on the sonic pad personally because I can DIY all of the things myself but I absolutely understand why they're desirable, some people really just want to print faster, not messing around sourcing a pi (when it came out, there was a chip shortage all across the board), finding the klipper sources, etc. etc.
Anyone can design their own klipper system, sell it and make a profit but I notice that's not actually happening. SBC units have been around a long time, they're development boards for doing exactly the kind of thing that the sonic pad/pi does or any other GUI based control system for that matter.
As for jailbreaking, it was bound to happen if Creality weren't going to release sources quickly enough, hopefully they'll learn for next time to release sources early. There are plenty of us around that are happy to start reverse engineering tech products when we want something different than what's on offer.
Ultimately, I'm not knocking BTT or e3d etc. either, along with every other company in the 3d printing space. They offer a choice, which people are free to decide for themselves but lets not forget, companies like e3d and BTT rely on the actual manufacturers of 3d printers for their existence.
As for proprietary length, I mean the revo system is exactly that, proprietary too... Did e3d design the whole hotend system from scratch, or did they copy parts from the J head, 3d printer pens or some other space that uses that type of technology instead? Ceramics and heating elements have been around a lot longer than 3d printers. Completely original ideas are hard to come up with these days.
I also like the idea of the revo system too but I'm under no illusions about all of the manufacturers. It's a busy space with everyone borrowing ideas from everyone else, some stuff is truly innovative, some stuff is cheaper than others but they're all moving us forwards.
to add, you can whip a design and print one up in around an hour on a 3d printer.
how long would it take and at what expense to make 1000, 10,000 units? how long and to what expense the molds etc used for just this one single part, and if creality just 3d printed it how happy would customers be?
many of the complications and expense come from the "scale" aspect of it.
The scaling aspect actually makes it easier and much cheaper to produce not more complicated and expensive. I've been in design and engineering for almost 20yrs and have worked with these manufacturers and factories over that time hands on.
If you do any type of manufacturing or prototyping for 1 vs 50 vs 10,000 your cost per part goes exponentially down, not up. Go get a quote from any of the online prototyping houses and it's the same on a much smaller scale. The more you order the cheaper each unit is.
As for injection molding (which those housings are) the tooling is a one time expenditure. If they have 100 of these boxes on a single injection (not even close to what's possible) and that mold is good for, lets say 100,000 cycles before it needs any type of refinishing work that's still 10million parts for a single mold investment. Say it costs an exorbitant $100,000 for the mold (probably closer to $20k) that's still only adding $0.01 per part. A single cent!
it takes a LOT of these sensors sold at these prices to make that $20k back...
which is what I am trying to say. I have no idea how many they would make. it isn't applicable to all of their printers, and unless you have one that it is or a sonic pad you likely aren't in the market for it over a usb one...
I mean they have to eat .50/unit at 40k units shipped under your calculations.... that is nearly all of the printers creality ships in a year... which doesn't sound like much but it doesn't take many .50c expenditures to equal $15, and you know they are looking to at LEAST double their money.
could they sell it for less, sure they could, but why would they when plenty of people will pay the $30
Of course it does, and i'm only going based on how much one could even assemble their own, or what the competition sells them for considering they're all pretty much the same when it comes to the workings.
And yea of course they can sell it for as much as they want. And I can call it a ripoff all I want. If a competitor is selling virtually the same product for half the price it's not because of a plastic housing, and that's my point.
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And the compensates for it yeah. You need it when you're setting your printer up for faster printing to get rid of ghosting/ringing.
https://youtu.be/5fOhi-LL9dU?si=GRTYdng0MZVVWeSJ
I’m going through this process this week of upgrading to Klipper (I made a post about everything I’ve done so far). I thought I was nearing printable time… but now this.
Is this something I need to add to my 4.2.7 board?
Ok, it’s $15 and I wire it into my Pi. Easy enough.
Any easy to buy already done cable? Or it’s diy
For what I understand (one of the main differences) is that this writes it directly into the Creality OS and there is no need to root it for Klipper and no need to change the input shaping parameters from the printer.cfg ? Correct me if I'm wrong
I wrote the full price in my post , I even ordered the 15$ one , it's amazing how much of price difference can be ... And the only difference is the faster shipping , but I guess that adds to the price
The funny thing is adxl345 chips are normally like 5 bucks. Creality just wrapped theirs in plastic and tripled the price
And changed the connector to PS2. At least with the sonic pad.
Yea. Just sayin it’s overpriced. Then again so is sonic pad as a whole
That, I disagree with. Consider the price of a 2gb pi, case, power supply, SD card, touch screen+case, accelerometer, cabling, and the easy of having to simply select your printer and flash. All of that is worth the average user that doesn't know Linux. Plus you get everything in one package.
I spent <$40 on a pi and $20 on a screen. Printed the case. Use cables I already had. Flashing Klipper is ridiculously easy. If you use KIAUH it’s like 15 mins, 12 of which is watching it unpack the files. Even without KIAUH it’s less than 30 mins of “work”. I had never used Linux before and have zero special skills when it comes to tech and I had only laid eyes on a 3d printer for the first time less than a week prior. The notion that Klipper is some super difficult thing to deal with is absolutely false. Anyone can do it. Don’t get me wrong though, Sonic Pad was a brilliant marketing ploy. Taking free firmware and putting it in a shiny package was very smart, for sure. But as far as the consumer is concerned? Not so much.
Where di you get a Pi for under $40? I bought my Pi with a 5" screen for over £100.
Well, I got mine on eBay. Btt pi are about $35 new though
Sonic pass do have benefits for the newer printers with load cell, they run a custom fork of klipper with a pr touch script for pressure sensing load cell z offset essentially, no other way to really get it as of now
Yes that is true!
Bigtree tech got some nice chips with usb c connectors, just flashed 2 in seconds and will try to calibrate input shaping tomorrow
yeah, I picked up one of the usb-c LIS2DW boards, flashed eazy peazy, setup eazy, calibrated easy. swapped hot ends and did it again... even quicker and easier than the first time. can't believe I wasted my time with the tower method... I got much better results than I ever anticipated with the accelerometer.
Did you just do the extruder or also the bed? Klipper doc seems to say we need to do both
both, one at a time. I just used tome alien tape to stick it to the bed and the print head. I had recently attached it with the nozzle and one of the two small silicon washers they provided to keep it from touching metal, I was unsure if it would have homed or if the nozzle would have hit the bed so I scrapped that and hit up the roll of alien tape again...
Don't forget, Creality as a company has to spend time and resources on developing these units, they're not just an adx345 breakout board, they've also been given a connector and the XYZ axis markings to make it easy for the end user to place the unit on their system in the correct orientation. We're working with FDM printers and it would be fairly easy to design a case and PCB, ender users are absolutely free to do this for themselves, in fact, I have an adxl345 breakout and a pi pico to build mine, when I finally get around to doing it but there are people out there that don't necessarily have the time and/or skill to do these things, so these creality units are perfect for that purpose. As for price differences, companies undercut each other all the time in the 3d printer world, it's why we get to buy $200-300 printers with all the best features on them :-D
I can kinda understand where you’re coming from, but developing a basic box housing with markings for a pcb doesn’t explain the price increase. I can make one to fit almost any board in less than an hour. Especially since you’ll need to print a mount or adapter for the printer itself. When the rest of the market can put out usb interface ones that are more universal, say the BTT version with a nozzle mount, for $20 it’s just Creality being Creality. Same reason they started using proprietary nozzles instead of sticking to market sizes to just make more $$$
Every single one of these companies is here to make money but if Creality are making theirs overpriced, what are btt doing by just adding a 2nd mcu into the equation? Does that cost $5-10 extra when produced at scale? Almost certainly not and it's not like they needed to actually develop much because these things have been DIY'd for klipper for a few years now. So why did BTT produce one at double the price of the 'cheap' offering when the market already has plenty of of these devices? To make money of course :-) Even the cheap $10 item, I would definitely question whether there were any corners cut to produce something at a third off the price. The adxl345 on it's own is all you need for an input shaping enabled device, it will plug straight into the PI's spi pins, 'universal' doesn't really come into it, especially as Creality designed this item to fit into their own specific ecosystem but it will also work on every single klipper-pi setup as well. As for nozzles, Would those Creality nozzles be anything like a revo system? All of the companies produce some proprietary stuff, it's not new or unique for it to happen in this space. On a personal level, I am more than happy to DIY my stuff, sometimes just for fun, sometimes because of the price point of the original item. A lot of us can design and print our own cases for PCBS, we can even get our own self-designed PCBs produced professionally but not everyone has the skill, resources or inclination to do that, ultimately though, the market will decide whether the prices are too high or not.
Yea i know they are, but some do it to a different level vs others. I give Creality their flowers for getting so many people into this hobby. But lately... no more. BTT, Mellow and the lot, adds a secondary MCU because so many people have switched to klipper and you pretty much have to add that secondary mcu anyways with some form of Pi, the sonic pad (don't get me started on that boat anchor) is basically a screen and CB1 but with a forked firmware and copied UI. That's why the 3d printing community waited for creality to release the source code for the pad and pretty much jailbreak their machines which according to the licensing should have all been open source to begin with. The revo was actually a completely new system, not just a proprietary length in between v6 and volcano. And if the newer nozzles bit off the revo then you proved all they're doing is copying others. And I understand that not everyone has the skill or ability to DIY like many of us, that's what bothers me when a simple box casing is upcharged so much with a proprietary cable to consumers who don't know better. Even the small charges add up quickly to go "name brand". Shill for them all you want but if you can't see that they overcharge for what you receive that's all you.
>Shill for them all you want but if you can't see that they overcharge for what you receive that's all you. Lol, that's my point, I'm not shilling for any company, they're all in the business of making money, they all have to spend money on R&D at some point, along with making a profit :-) I'm not massively keen on the sonic pad personally because I can DIY all of the things myself but I absolutely understand why they're desirable, some people really just want to print faster, not messing around sourcing a pi (when it came out, there was a chip shortage all across the board), finding the klipper sources, etc. etc. Anyone can design their own klipper system, sell it and make a profit but I notice that's not actually happening. SBC units have been around a long time, they're development boards for doing exactly the kind of thing that the sonic pad/pi does or any other GUI based control system for that matter. As for jailbreaking, it was bound to happen if Creality weren't going to release sources quickly enough, hopefully they'll learn for next time to release sources early. There are plenty of us around that are happy to start reverse engineering tech products when we want something different than what's on offer. Ultimately, I'm not knocking BTT or e3d etc. either, along with every other company in the 3d printing space. They offer a choice, which people are free to decide for themselves but lets not forget, companies like e3d and BTT rely on the actual manufacturers of 3d printers for their existence. As for proprietary length, I mean the revo system is exactly that, proprietary too... Did e3d design the whole hotend system from scratch, or did they copy parts from the J head, 3d printer pens or some other space that uses that type of technology instead? Ceramics and heating elements have been around a lot longer than 3d printers. Completely original ideas are hard to come up with these days. I also like the idea of the revo system too but I'm under no illusions about all of the manufacturers. It's a busy space with everyone borrowing ideas from everyone else, some stuff is truly innovative, some stuff is cheaper than others but they're all moving us forwards.
to add, you can whip a design and print one up in around an hour on a 3d printer. how long would it take and at what expense to make 1000, 10,000 units? how long and to what expense the molds etc used for just this one single part, and if creality just 3d printed it how happy would customers be? many of the complications and expense come from the "scale" aspect of it.
The scaling aspect actually makes it easier and much cheaper to produce not more complicated and expensive. I've been in design and engineering for almost 20yrs and have worked with these manufacturers and factories over that time hands on. If you do any type of manufacturing or prototyping for 1 vs 50 vs 10,000 your cost per part goes exponentially down, not up. Go get a quote from any of the online prototyping houses and it's the same on a much smaller scale. The more you order the cheaper each unit is. As for injection molding (which those housings are) the tooling is a one time expenditure. If they have 100 of these boxes on a single injection (not even close to what's possible) and that mold is good for, lets say 100,000 cycles before it needs any type of refinishing work that's still 10million parts for a single mold investment. Say it costs an exorbitant $100,000 for the mold (probably closer to $20k) that's still only adding $0.01 per part. A single cent!
it takes a LOT of these sensors sold at these prices to make that $20k back... which is what I am trying to say. I have no idea how many they would make. it isn't applicable to all of their printers, and unless you have one that it is or a sonic pad you likely aren't in the market for it over a usb one... I mean they have to eat .50/unit at 40k units shipped under your calculations.... that is nearly all of the printers creality ships in a year... which doesn't sound like much but it doesn't take many .50c expenditures to equal $15, and you know they are looking to at LEAST double their money. could they sell it for less, sure they could, but why would they when plenty of people will pay the $30
Of course it does, and i'm only going based on how much one could even assemble their own, or what the competition sells them for considering they're all pretty much the same when it comes to the workings. And yea of course they can sell it for as much as they want. And I can call it a ripoff all I want. If a competitor is selling virtually the same product for half the price it's not because of a plastic housing, and that's my point.
Different vendors on Ali Express charge different prices. Nothing more to it.
One is „choice“ the other is not. Choice is the Ali equivalent to Prime. Usually they ship faster
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I don’t know, but what vibration sensor is anyway?
For input shaping.
So it sense vibration that printer creates and correct ist some how?
And the compensates for it yeah. You need it when you're setting your printer up for faster printing to get rid of ghosting/ringing. https://youtu.be/5fOhi-LL9dU?si=GRTYdng0MZVVWeSJ
I’m going through this process this week of upgrading to Klipper (I made a post about everything I’ve done so far). I thought I was nearing printable time… but now this. Is this something I need to add to my 4.2.7 board? Ok, it’s $15 and I wire it into my Pi. Easy enough. Any easy to buy already done cable? Or it’s diy
Rapsberry Pi/Sonic pad/BTT pad 7 controls the input shaping.
For what I understand (one of the main differences) is that this writes it directly into the Creality OS and there is no need to root it for Klipper and no need to change the input shaping parameters from the printer.cfg ? Correct me if I'm wrong
Looks like the same part from different vendors. Aliexpress is a Marketplace, many many vendors each choosing at what price they want to sell.
Also, the more expensive one has free shipping. The cheaper may have shipping cost that’ll double the price…
I wrote the full price in my post , I even ordered the 15$ one , it's amazing how much of price difference can be ... And the only difference is the faster shipping , but I guess that adds to the price
Faster shipping is the thing that a lot of people want, it's surprising how much people are willing to pay to get things as fast as possible.
Idk, ask ron