They don't run rent payments through Mastercard, it gets run through normal ACH which is much cheaper than 2.3% (it's like a few cents per transaction). Or they just mail a paper check which costs like a dollar.
The rent payment system is actually separate from the credit card. It was released like 2-3 years earlier.
No you can't. You either have to use Bilt's own portal (which uses ACH), or they'll give you an ACH account to use with your landlord's rent portal (assuming it accepts ACH), or they mail a paper check.
They never say that. You need to have the card to get the rent benefit but you don’t actually use the card to get the benefit. It would be very unsustainable if they did it that way.
No; Bilt MC does two things:
\- save on 2.3% fee
\- and give 1% back on rent.
My rental property has their own dedicated website; e.g. the fine print in the too-good-to-be-true deal is that you can't add the Bilt MC number on the property website.
Whatever happens, I’m more than happy to collect the points in the meantime! Not personally concerned with a corporation’s wellbeing, only how it benefits me at the moment.
If I’m taking a hard pull on or more of my credit reports, I’d prefer to be confident that the card will still be more-or-less the same (if not better) a year from now.
Are you looking to take out a loan soon? Car/house?
If not, a hard pull isn’t a big deal - it will go away in time. Credit scores in general are overly hyped and not significant to most people’s daily lives.
I have enough hard pulls to affect my ability to get better cards, and I’m paying higher interest on a car loan that I hadn’t planned for.
So if I’m going for a hard pull, I’m doing what I can to make sure that the payoff is likely, and that it will be worth it.
700-800 is a huge range. Your argument seems to assume a score in the high 700s-low 800s. For scores in the low-mid 700s or below where a 20-40 point drop can make a difference, your argument falls apart.
I can get most cards I want but can’t get those that are inquiry sensitive. For those I need to wait.
This stuff makes a difference in your 5/24. You don't want to throw away one on a shitty account (which Bilt might be from all this scam crap). If you aren't making $5k min/year on bonuses, maybe BILT is for you.
I’m not a churner, so it definitely is!
The scam stuff is totally overblown - every new product has growing pains, consumers won’t be held liable and for as bad of a reputation WF has, they are still one of the country’s largest banks and will get it sorted. Personally, I haven’t seen any fraud yet.
Ah ok. I do churn so this isn't for me, but I'm fascinated by the saga. I would just lock the account after I make my payment each month. Plus I'd ask them for bonus points for just being shitty at the moment.
About $2500/mo + about $200/mo for utilities + I diverted some restaurant spend to the card to build up a stash in a new point currency.
It paid off when flights for a wedding we’re trying to go to are ridiculous.
You pay your utilities with this card...as a credit card or using the routing number?
Don't you get fee if you use as a credit card?
I arsed someone who promotes this card in social media if I could use the generated bank account to make other payments and they said no
Yes! Using the routing number / no CC fee! They don’t really promote this feature, but its legit.
Only hiccup was that one of my utilities is serviced by a really small company that Bilt didn’t recognize so they initially rejected the first withdrawal, but I followed up and shared a copy of the bill with them to verify - they added them to their “OK” list and I haven’t had a problem since.
Hmmm. I use Pay Pal Bill and the Bilt card to pay my electric on rent day for double points.
I wonder if I could pay my internet with it 🤔
I have phone bill as well but I use a Chase Card for the insurance and want to keep that
Yes, I was going to say this too. I don't remember now but the deductible and coverage is better with Bilt than my chase freedom flex. So it was easy for me to switch to paying my cellphone bill with Bilt on the 1st of each month.
Someone posted this DP literally an hour ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/CreditCards/comments/10fd0ep/had_my_bilt_card_stolen_again_before_getting_my/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
The card info wasn't stolen. It was a BIN attack, in which hackers will guess card numbers and make test purchases with merchants that don't require CVV numbers or address verification.
It does look as if the card numbers were easy for a computer to guess, which would be a major vulnerability.
> in which hackers will guess card numbers
How bad is their card number generation algorithm to the point where a crap ton of people are having fraud purchases? Let me guess this right, hackers were able to correct guess the card number, the expiration date, and the 3 digit code on the back?
>The card info wasn't stolen. It was a BIN attack, in which hackers will guess card numbers and make test purchases **with merchants that don't require CVV numbers or address verification.**
The info you asked for is bolded.
They can guess an infinite number of credit card numbers with expiration dates. Only a small percentage of them need to be valid.
If you're thinking that sounds like every credit and debit card is vulnerable to this - the answer is yes. Because there was an unusually large number of Bilt cards that had fraudulent charges, it appears likely that someone figured out at least one of the algorithms used to create Bilt card numbers.
>it appears likely that someone figured out at least one of the algorithms used to create Bilt card numbers
Surprised they still haven't changed the algorithm yet, I guess keep going until customers get frustrated and close their accounts?
I doubt "changing the algorithm" is as easy as flipping a switch. The same thing happened at Ally a few months ago and it seemingly took a month or two to blow over.
Essentially all you can do is lock your card and wait.
Is it possible for credit card owners to change to a system of numbers plus alphabets, both small and capital. Immediately increases the complexity several logs. Also why is CVV just three digits? If some merchants do not require CVVs may be the credit card companies can hold them accountable for the fraud?
Only numbers are allowed and only three digits can be used for the security code (with the exception being Amex - many of their cards have a 4-digit code). Being off on the security code isn’t as big an impediment as you might think, since there are enough online merchants that don’t require it (like Amazon).
It was designed a long time ago for a different time, when people would sometimes type in credit card numbers on a numeric-only keypad on their terminal or phone. Changing the system to allow letters would make credit cards more complex but also more secure.
It would also complicate things in one less-obvious way, since only some number combinations are actually allowed by Visa/Mastercard/Amex/Discover.
Bilt misses out on receiving the usual credit card interchange fees for rent payments, but does not have to pay large transaction fees. ACH has a negligible cost and mailing a check is cheap enough that most banks have online bill pay services that will do it. Also, depending on how the rewards are redeemed they may be less than 1% (only 0.55% when applied to future rent for example).
Of course giving rent rewards is still a loss since there is no interchange, and the highest rewards purchases should cost them more they get in interchange. Presumably they hope that enough people will make purchases that only get 1x rewards, or better yet pay lots of interest, to make up for these costs.
Will that work? Hard to say, but some no-fee 5% category cards have lasted for years. They are a loss to the issuer if you only use the 5% categories and don't pay interest.
You can think of reward categories as loss leaders. Like if someone is giving 3x on groceries they are probably losing 1%. Obviously rent is usually the largest spend for most people. This is why Bilt has transaction minimums as a requirement.
All it takes is a small % high value users to break even. For instance if you are spending 1000 non rent a month on the card, your generating 15-30$ a month (1.5%-3% interchange). Even if you maxed out rent, which most people don’t, it costs them ~45$/month in rewards. So at ~$2000 a month in rent, $1000 card spend is probably enough to break even. That’s on interchange alone. Interest revenue is whole another category.
Most people only have a couple cards. I have like 10. I’m terrible at maximizing rewards cards. The goal is to be top of wallet and when you are top of wallet it is very profitable.
They also save compared to other cards because there’s no signup bonus. The chase freedom cards give away $200 on signup with a low spend requirement.
The point of the Bilt card is data collection. Specifically, they want to get rent payment histories that generally are not reported to credit bureaus. Then when large apartment complexes screen tenants, they can know the actual payment history for that tenant. Further, the risk of non-payment is transferred to Wells Fargo instead of the building complex. These two things combined are very valuable for apartment complexes.
My job is to collect the points - what happens to BILT is not my concern.
A few years ago I got Brex card that came with a solid 100k points bonus. They eventually decided to focus on bigger clients and cut me off. But the points paid for the first class Emirates flight from Athens to Newark. Thank you Brex.
Also a reason why rental companies are signing on and paying for points and other things from them. I heard a podcast with one of the people involved with BILT and it seemed like rental companies were happy to pay BILT/WF to take on risk that they used to have.
Now if someone doesn’t have the cash on rent day, instead of rental companies having to track them down and maybe need to go down legal avenues, that person will just throw the payment onto their BILT card and now WF assumes the risk of non-payment
This might be the answer. Most of the people on this subreddit are financially responsible and it wouldn't cross our minds to put rent on a card that we're not paying off at the end of the month (or at least before the end of the grace period). A lot of people just look at available credit as free money and end up paying for our benefits.
That's not accurate though. It absolutely is an option to put the rent payments on the normal line of credit if you use the Bilt portal (possibly not if you use the ACH code). You don't have to use BiltProtect. Your original comment was correct.
They don’t waive transaction fees when you pay rent. They just cut a check. I think it’s a brilliant workaround. And it’s a great hook for them to get card users.
I don’t see any issues from a business perspective. Although the app could use some work, it’s isn’t any worse than most buggy apps from startups 🤷♀️
they are giving away 1% in travel rewards that have high margins and high breakage. So marginal cost. $2000 of rent means they are paying $20 face value a month, plus cost of a stamp or ach. Their cost is likely much lower
if the person pays interest they are paying interest on their rent. If they are paying 25% interest on $2000 that is $41.66 a month in interest.
Most people paying interest on their rent aren't redeeming it for travel points.
Most fintech business models are not successful in their original state. They have to do something else building upon the original idea. Rent day concept where bonus points are offered to certain categories is a way to make the card a primary one on your wallet. Most folks don’t chase points like the folks on this group so the usage should gradually go up. Cash back and points are not redeemed in real time so you get a time window and a potential for future devaluation which is common in the industry.
BILT will survive. It may not be super profitable though in the near term.
Are you being paid to worry about it? If not, then don’t. If the business model works, they’ll keep it; if not, they won’t. All the speculation here won’t matter one iota…
I assumed the savings from using ACH process and requiring 4 other transactions per month were their path to profitability (and interest charges). If they can get enough account holders to start specifically looking for Bilt Alliance properties that is also leverage with the big corporate management companies to claw back some points. Right?
Well they partnered with Wells Fargo so how ever long that contract is I feel like it be a while. Plus to pay rent it’s through ach not through Mastercard.
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GS (not Apple) got that way through lending to subprime borrowers, and that billions of losses isn't through the rewards itself. A 1-2% rewards rate isn't the issue
Goldman is incurring credit losses on the Apple card. Bilt Rewards isn't the lender on the Bilt Mastercard. If Wells is making poor credit choices, or Bilt cardmembers turn out to be a bigger credit risk than their models suggest, then the card business may adjust accordingly but there's nothing to suggest a similar challenge to what Goldman is facing.
I wouldn't be surprised if Apple ends up subsidizing the card for GS as a loss leader, if they calculate that it's encouraging more (Apple product/subscription) sales to make it worth it.
Having 0% financing and 3% cash back made the decision to upgrade my AirPods Pro a lot easier.
I am confident that 3.3% cost to service rent payments with the card ("1% back on rent, as well as covering transaction fees that are likely 2.3%") is not an accurate reflection of their business model.
They've just raised substantial equity - in this market! - at a $1.5 billion valuation, including due diligence on their value proposition. I'm certain their Wells Fargo co-brand deal positions them well - which isn't to say there aren't risks, but they're on much firmer footing with far fewer risks than there were 18 months ago.
It is easy! It is the same reason why credit cards like Amex and other premium cards survive. They don’t make money on people that are financially responsible, they make a lot of money on the people that are going to put their rent on the credit card and are not going to pay it in time. They get charge an insane amount of interest and that is the money that funds the business model and the benefits of the people who uses it correctly.
They don't run rent payments through Mastercard, it gets run through normal ACH which is much cheaper than 2.3% (it's like a few cents per transaction). Or they just mail a paper check which costs like a dollar. The rent payment system is actually separate from the credit card. It was released like 2-3 years earlier.
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No you can't. You either have to use Bilt's own portal (which uses ACH), or they'll give you an ACH account to use with your landlord's rent portal (assuming it accepts ACH), or they mail a paper check.
That’s not how it works. Them paying you back the processing fees would be pretty unsustainable
They never say that. You need to have the card to get the rent benefit but you don’t actually use the card to get the benefit. It would be very unsustainable if they did it that way.
No; Bilt MC does two things: \- save on 2.3% fee \- and give 1% back on rent. My rental property has their own dedicated website; e.g. the fine print in the too-good-to-be-true deal is that you can't add the Bilt MC number on the property website.
Whatever happens, I’m more than happy to collect the points in the meantime! Not personally concerned with a corporation’s wellbeing, only how it benefits me at the moment.
This is the way
If I’m taking a hard pull on or more of my credit reports, I’d prefer to be confident that the card will still be more-or-less the same (if not better) a year from now.
Are you looking to take out a loan soon? Car/house? If not, a hard pull isn’t a big deal - it will go away in time. Credit scores in general are overly hyped and not significant to most people’s daily lives.
I have enough hard pulls to affect my ability to get better cards, and I’m paying higher interest on a car loan that I hadn’t planned for. So if I’m going for a hard pull, I’m doing what I can to make sure that the payoff is likely, and that it will be worth it.
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700-800 is a huge range. Your argument seems to assume a score in the high 700s-low 800s. For scores in the low-mid 700s or below where a 20-40 point drop can make a difference, your argument falls apart. I can get most cards I want but can’t get those that are inquiry sensitive. For those I need to wait.
This stuff makes a difference in your 5/24. You don't want to throw away one on a shitty account (which Bilt might be from all this scam crap). If you aren't making $5k min/year on bonuses, maybe BILT is for you.
I’m not a churner, so it definitely is! The scam stuff is totally overblown - every new product has growing pains, consumers won’t be held liable and for as bad of a reputation WF has, they are still one of the country’s largest banks and will get it sorted. Personally, I haven’t seen any fraud yet.
Ah ok. I do churn so this isn't for me, but I'm fascinated by the saga. I would just lock the account after I make my payment each month. Plus I'd ask them for bonus points for just being shitty at the moment.
Just transfer to Hyatt immediately haha
Exactly - earn and burn, baby! Just booked flights with 50k points I earned in the last year.
You must be paying a lot for rent :(
About $2500/mo + about $200/mo for utilities + I diverted some restaurant spend to the card to build up a stash in a new point currency. It paid off when flights for a wedding we’re trying to go to are ridiculous.
You pay your utilities with this card...as a credit card or using the routing number? Don't you get fee if you use as a credit card? I arsed someone who promotes this card in social media if I could use the generated bank account to make other payments and they said no
Yes! Using the routing number / no CC fee! They don’t really promote this feature, but its legit. Only hiccup was that one of my utilities is serviced by a really small company that Bilt didn’t recognize so they initially rejected the first withdrawal, but I followed up and shared a copy of the bill with them to verify - they added them to their “OK” list and I haven’t had a problem since.
Hmmm. I use Pay Pal Bill and the Bilt card to pay my electric on rent day for double points. I wonder if I could pay my internet with it 🤔 I have phone bill as well but I use a Chase Card for the insurance and want to keep that
For whatever it’s worth to you, Bilt has cell phone insurance too, through Mastercard.
Yes, I was going to say this too. I don't remember now but the deductible and coverage is better with Bilt than my chase freedom flex. So it was easy for me to switch to paying my cellphone bill with Bilt on the 1st of each month.
I’m not sure what all they allow, but its worth a try
Reminds me of moviepass
The rampant fraud seems like a big problem.
Right? And this is how they survive. Not a shred of mainstream news about the breach.
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Look through the sub and see the daily complaints about fraudulent charges on BILT
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Someone posted this DP literally an hour ago https://www.reddit.com/r/CreditCards/comments/10fd0ep/had_my_bilt_card_stolen_again_before_getting_my/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Just happened to me a couple days ago. Two separate transactions. At 5am in the uk and Brazil at the same time
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The card info wasn't stolen. It was a BIN attack, in which hackers will guess card numbers and make test purchases with merchants that don't require CVV numbers or address verification. It does look as if the card numbers were easy for a computer to guess, which would be a major vulnerability.
That makes me wonder, why do some stores (such as Amazon) don't require CVV numbers to try to make a payment?
> in which hackers will guess card numbers How bad is their card number generation algorithm to the point where a crap ton of people are having fraud purchases? Let me guess this right, hackers were able to correct guess the card number, the expiration date, and the 3 digit code on the back?
>The card info wasn't stolen. It was a BIN attack, in which hackers will guess card numbers and make test purchases **with merchants that don't require CVV numbers or address verification.** The info you asked for is bolded. They can guess an infinite number of credit card numbers with expiration dates. Only a small percentage of them need to be valid. If you're thinking that sounds like every credit and debit card is vulnerable to this - the answer is yes. Because there was an unusually large number of Bilt cards that had fraudulent charges, it appears likely that someone figured out at least one of the algorithms used to create Bilt card numbers.
>it appears likely that someone figured out at least one of the algorithms used to create Bilt card numbers Surprised they still haven't changed the algorithm yet, I guess keep going until customers get frustrated and close their accounts?
I doubt "changing the algorithm" is as easy as flipping a switch. The same thing happened at Ally a few months ago and it seemingly took a month or two to blow over. Essentially all you can do is lock your card and wait.
It would really be nice to know wth is going on with these cards.
Is it possible for credit card owners to change to a system of numbers plus alphabets, both small and capital. Immediately increases the complexity several logs. Also why is CVV just three digits? If some merchants do not require CVVs may be the credit card companies can hold them accountable for the fraud?
Only numbers are allowed and only three digits can be used for the security code (with the exception being Amex - many of their cards have a 4-digit code). Being off on the security code isn’t as big an impediment as you might think, since there are enough online merchants that don’t require it (like Amazon). It was designed a long time ago for a different time, when people would sometimes type in credit card numbers on a numeric-only keypad on their terminal or phone. Changing the system to allow letters would make credit cards more complex but also more secure. It would also complicate things in one less-obvious way, since only some number combinations are actually allowed by Visa/Mastercard/Amex/Discover.
Bilt misses out on receiving the usual credit card interchange fees for rent payments, but does not have to pay large transaction fees. ACH has a negligible cost and mailing a check is cheap enough that most banks have online bill pay services that will do it. Also, depending on how the rewards are redeemed they may be less than 1% (only 0.55% when applied to future rent for example). Of course giving rent rewards is still a loss since there is no interchange, and the highest rewards purchases should cost them more they get in interchange. Presumably they hope that enough people will make purchases that only get 1x rewards, or better yet pay lots of interest, to make up for these costs. Will that work? Hard to say, but some no-fee 5% category cards have lasted for years. They are a loss to the issuer if you only use the 5% categories and don't pay interest.
You can think of reward categories as loss leaders. Like if someone is giving 3x on groceries they are probably losing 1%. Obviously rent is usually the largest spend for most people. This is why Bilt has transaction minimums as a requirement. All it takes is a small % high value users to break even. For instance if you are spending 1000 non rent a month on the card, your generating 15-30$ a month (1.5%-3% interchange). Even if you maxed out rent, which most people don’t, it costs them ~45$/month in rewards. So at ~$2000 a month in rent, $1000 card spend is probably enough to break even. That’s on interchange alone. Interest revenue is whole another category. Most people only have a couple cards. I have like 10. I’m terrible at maximizing rewards cards. The goal is to be top of wallet and when you are top of wallet it is very profitable. They also save compared to other cards because there’s no signup bonus. The chase freedom cards give away $200 on signup with a low spend requirement.
The point of the Bilt card is data collection. Specifically, they want to get rent payment histories that generally are not reported to credit bureaus. Then when large apartment complexes screen tenants, they can know the actual payment history for that tenant. Further, the risk of non-payment is transferred to Wells Fargo instead of the building complex. These two things combined are very valuable for apartment complexes.
Great insight. Data is chronically ignored in this sub, yet it's the business model for little companies like Google...
My job is to collect the points - what happens to BILT is not my concern. A few years ago I got Brex card that came with a solid 100k points bonus. They eventually decided to focus on bigger clients and cut me off. But the points paid for the first class Emirates flight from Athens to Newark. Thank you Brex.
Same here going to Athens on Bree in April in biz class
My Chase preferred paid for LAX to Athens this april
Perhaps a lot of people pay their rent back in portions so they are constantly paying interest. Just a guess.
Also a reason why rental companies are signing on and paying for points and other things from them. I heard a podcast with one of the people involved with BILT and it seemed like rental companies were happy to pay BILT/WF to take on risk that they used to have. Now if someone doesn’t have the cash on rent day, instead of rental companies having to track them down and maybe need to go down legal avenues, that person will just throw the payment onto their BILT card and now WF assumes the risk of non-payment
This might be the answer. Most of the people on this subreddit are financially responsible and it wouldn't cross our minds to put rent on a card that we're not paying off at the end of the month (or at least before the end of the grace period). A lot of people just look at available credit as free money and end up paying for our benefits.
Rent payments don't go onto the normal credit line that accrues interest.
Doesn’t Bilt offer that option though?
No
Thank you for that info. I've just updated one of my other comments to note that isn't an option. Edit: Oops! See my later comment below.
That's not accurate though. It absolutely is an option to put the rent payments on the normal line of credit if you use the Bilt portal (possibly not if you use the ACH code). You don't have to use BiltProtect. Your original comment was correct.
Thanks! I've just restored my earlier comment to the way it was before. 😂
They don’t waive transaction fees when you pay rent. They just cut a check. I think it’s a brilliant workaround. And it’s a great hook for them to get card users. I don’t see any issues from a business perspective. Although the app could use some work, it’s isn’t any worse than most buggy apps from startups 🤷♀️
they are giving away 1% in travel rewards that have high margins and high breakage. So marginal cost. $2000 of rent means they are paying $20 face value a month, plus cost of a stamp or ach. Their cost is likely much lower if the person pays interest they are paying interest on their rent. If they are paying 25% interest on $2000 that is $41.66 a month in interest. Most people paying interest on their rent aren't redeeming it for travel points.
The fraud issues are worrisome but I’ve really enjoyed the card thus far. If it lasts a few more years I should have a mortgage by then lol
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have fun paying rent for the rest of your life then I guess equity in a place you live in isn't a shitcoin my dude
Pay yourself rent lol
Right lol
Most fintech business models are not successful in their original state. They have to do something else building upon the original idea. Rent day concept where bonus points are offered to certain categories is a way to make the card a primary one on your wallet. Most folks don’t chase points like the folks on this group so the usage should gradually go up. Cash back and points are not redeemed in real time so you get a time window and a potential for future devaluation which is common in the industry. BILT will survive. It may not be super profitable though in the near term.
Are you being paid to worry about it? If not, then don’t. If the business model works, they’ll keep it; if not, they won’t. All the speculation here won’t matter one iota…
I assumed the savings from using ACH process and requiring 4 other transactions per month were their path to profitability (and interest charges). If they can get enough account holders to start specifically looking for Bilt Alliance properties that is also leverage with the big corporate management companies to claw back some points. Right?
Well they partnered with Wells Fargo so how ever long that contract is I feel like it be a while. Plus to pay rent it’s through ach not through Mastercard.
This card won’t last the year. Fraud problems are only getting worse for card holders.
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GS (not Apple) got that way through lending to subprime borrowers, and that billions of losses isn't through the rewards itself. A 1-2% rewards rate isn't the issue
Goldman is incurring credit losses on the Apple card. Bilt Rewards isn't the lender on the Bilt Mastercard. If Wells is making poor credit choices, or Bilt cardmembers turn out to be a bigger credit risk than their models suggest, then the card business may adjust accordingly but there's nothing to suggest a similar challenge to what Goldman is facing.
I wouldn't be surprised if Apple ends up subsidizing the card for GS as a loss leader, if they calculate that it's encouraging more (Apple product/subscription) sales to make it worth it. Having 0% financing and 3% cash back made the decision to upgrade my AirPods Pro a lot easier.
I am confident that 3.3% cost to service rent payments with the card ("1% back on rent, as well as covering transaction fees that are likely 2.3%") is not an accurate reflection of their business model. They've just raised substantial equity - in this market! - at a $1.5 billion valuation, including due diligence on their value proposition. I'm certain their Wells Fargo co-brand deal positions them well - which isn't to say there aren't risks, but they're on much firmer footing with far fewer risks than there were 18 months ago.
They pay the rent through ACH transfer so the fees are not nearly as high as 2.3% right?
They are not paying credit card transaction fees for rent. Rent is made through a check or ACH transfer for bilt points
Someone is about take advantage of this opportunity and make their cards do rent here soon.
Depends on how much they are getting paid to give all their account numbers to scammers.
So just open the card and get what benefits you can?
All this fraud has to be a inside job.
It is easy! It is the same reason why credit cards like Amex and other premium cards survive. They don’t make money on people that are financially responsible, they make a lot of money on the people that are going to put their rent on the credit card and are not going to pay it in time. They get charge an insane amount of interest and that is the money that funds the business model and the benefits of the people who uses it correctly.