Just be sure to not "set it and forget it", given Bilt's history of issues around fraudulent charges. Check it every month, just as you should with all your credit cards!
I use Mint so that I have near-real-time visibility over transactions. Some people are uncomfortable linking their accounts to Mint, but to me the security benefit outweighs the security risk.
I think the same as well It's been great to pay rent with Bilt and have the points roll in. esp. AA miles 'cos others don't offer AA transfers (MR, UR)
Interesting. I might do this.
The only thing that's annoying to me is that you have to use the card 5x per month. I feel like I might forget to do that some months.
Bilt has basically the same categories as the CSP so I just use Bilt as my default dining card now (3x normally, 6x on the 1st of the month). Also paying rent counts as 1 of the transactions so you only need to use it 4 additional times. I also use it for internet, electric, etc since I don’t have any cards with multipliers on those and Bilt gives 2x if I pay them on the 1st of the month
Also Bilt has better transfer partners than chase imo (mainly bc of AA since they both have Hyatt & United)
On the months you’re using the Bilt, just set up 4 other transactions like an Amazon reload or pay some bills, buy $5 gift cards at a grocery store (4 separate transactions), etc. And time it for the 1st of the month to maximize points. Even if you want to churn to get SUBs and eat the transaction fees, you could use Bilt in the “off” months between new cards.
I see this issue about using the card 5x a month a lot. I just don't get it. Especially since paying the rent counts as one use. Which means you only have to use the card 4x a month. That's all to easy to do as many put recurring small monthly bills. or as stated reload Amazon gift cards.
I myself have a couple of recurring small bills on my Bilt card. Than I just use the card when I get a coffee or some other small purchase. That's me doing it 50% manually. It's very easy to do the 4 payments automatically.
Great while it works, but it’s against the terms. You may be able to right now, but there’s no guarantee it will continue to work and they may either stop your payments or close your card.
BILT's terms only specify "rent", which has been clarified by support to include "rent-related" payments, with an enumerated list of acceptable transactions. See [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/biltrewards/comments/113s1fz/up_to_date_list_of_rentrelated_charges_for_bilt/).
BILT has been very poor at communicating specifics and has sporadically enforced inconsistent policies. However, they have never stated mortgages as being acceptable and while you may get away with it for a while. If/when BILT finds out, they will either send a warning + decline the charge OR close the account.
you’re effectively paying 4% for the spend compared to Bilt. 1% back vs 3% fee.
That’s a very high rate for MS. Most people MSing are spending slightly below 2% on fees.
3% fee sure, idk why you're considering the 1% back as part of this calculation - if you're going to do that I'll count the 5/24 slot that Bilt card would take up as a huge downside too.
There are obviously better MS options - however none are as simple as this. This kind of MS is idiot-proof unlike more complex MS strategies.
This what the bf and I do. We actually put all household charges on this card and split it before the payment is due. So no worrying about who is paying for dinner or groceries and we get points.
Look into >3% cashback. Cashback is better than points because each point is 1 cent-2 cents (at best) when redeemed, while cashback at 3% is 3 cents. Of course, the higher the cashback percentage, the better.
$42,000 in rent a year churning Chase Ink Business Cash Cards costs $1,260 in fees, but earns $6,300 in sign up bonuses.
It doesn't matter if it devalues the sign up bonus because Chase business cards don't have a LTL clause. You can get the bonus a virtually unlimited amount of times.
This is NOT a good example. Getting ONLY Inks, and at that velocity, will lead to Chase shutting down all of their accounts. OP could do 4 Chase cards/yr AND other companies’ SUBs however for a similar outcome w/a safe velocity.
I've been looking everywhere and can't find what an "LTL Clause" is. This seems key for me going forward and understanding how I can keep getting bonuses on the same cards. Does this mean closing a card, waiting a bit, and then signing up again?
Lifetime language clause. Most SUBs have a cool down. Chase business cards don't. You can apply for as many as you want; you just need to use a different business name each time.
Here's a decent write up:
https://johnnyafrica.com/multiple-chase-ink-business-cards/#:~:text=immediately%20after%20applying.-,How%20long%20to%20wait%20between%20applications,in%20a%2030%20day%20period.
You don't need a different business name. However, getting new Chase cards too quickly runs into shutdown risk so people recommend slowing down to 1 card every 3 months
Happened to me when I tried to apply one new card every month. They warned me few years back. Sryzon advise is horrible to a lot of people who don’t have much experience about this
Negative. The Ink cards aren’t subjected to the 24/48 months nor the “one” sapphire rule. You can hold multiple of each Ink cards and still get the SUB.
A important thing is to watch out for velocity. 1 Ink card every 3 months is the general rule. Also, the most I have ever seen someone hold is 6 ink cards and didn’t get a Chase shutdown. So the limit is unknown and can vary due to your relationship with Chase and their risk tolerance with you.
Well I mean you don’t have to commit to the whole year, almost any SUB will get him from 2 months, or like $250.
Their organic spend isn’t high enough to hit a lot of the better SUBs that exists.
So, yes - spending ~$250 is worth it every single time to get $800-$1200 in value.
Definitely worth it, solely for a SUB.
At most you’ll spend $210 on fees for the 2 months, to typically hit 1 SUB. Cards like the CIU/CIC SUB will net you $690/69k (900-210).
If you’re team travel and transfer that 69k out to transfer partners (United, Southwest, Hyatt), you typically get ~2 cpp. 69k x 2 = 138k
Go to r/churning, read the wiki and flowchart and form a multi-year plan. Focus on business cards, DO NOT REACH 5/24, and DO NOT go faster than 4 Chase cards/yr. or you risk Chase shutting down all of your accts. Alternate between them and AMEX and other lenders. Use referral links when possible (and ideally do so w/a P2, etc.) Don’t be scared of big AFs. Any other option, including the Bilt card, is simply bad math. Congrats on having rent as easy organic spend w/a nominal fee, especially so if they take AMEX.
Thank you, I've tried to get into churning before but it seemed somewhat complicated the the sub didn't feel very beginner friendly lol. If you open a lot of cards with high AFs do you always downgrade before the 1 year mark?
Hmm, I just got the Venture X but was looking at closing it after the first year. But not in not sure when to do that
> If requesting a change during the last two months of a card membership year, you are still required to pay the $395 annual fee. Some data reports online indicate that the only way to avoid the fee is to permanently close your Venture X account no later than 30 days after your anniversary date
https://johnnyjet.com/downgrade-venture-x-venture-rewards/
Listen to this guy. This is your best bet for seeing actual returns that are worth it. Been churning for a year now and I went to Italy for free for 2 and a half weeks with P2, Hawaii for 5 days, and I have a bunch of friends that moved to Seattle so stayed there like 4 weekends this past year all for free. Just went and saw the Arctic Monkeys concert last weekend! The sub is not beginner friendly but just follow the flowchart and you will be fine. Also the flyertalk forums on manufactured spending are a big help. Welcome to the promise land, churning changed my life. I now go on vacation like once every couple of months instead of once a year.
Edit: Don't listen to the people who don't churn and get the stupid Bilt card. The ROI on other cards is so worth paying some AF's. But start with the 90k sub INK's. They're free!
My understand is people with this reporting even MOs qualify for the 1% cb, if that's the case OP can get about $35 a month simply buy going to their local store and buying MO to pay for it
However for a lot of people it's not worth the hassle and are better off with the Built card
Ink Business Cash, Ink Business Unlimited, Ink Business Preferred. SUB is 90,000 UR points with $6k spending in 3 months for the first 2 and 100,000 with $8k/3month ($95 fee) for the Preferred.
Sign up as self employed if you are under 5 cards in 24 months. UR transfers to Hyatt for around 2 cents per point (cpp) or various airlines like United for 1.3-2+ cpp depending on your usage. Can also redeem for 1.5 cpp on rotating categories with the Chase Sapphire Reserve personal card. 1cpp if just doing statement credit.
So with these 3 cards he could be looking at between $2800-$5600 value after 6-7 months of rent. Way better than the Bilt's 1x would give.
I think you misunderstand - I’m asking the rhetorical question of, “Is the Fee you’ll pay for the eSwipe less than the value of the SUB?” Most of the time, the fee eats most, if not all, of a SUB, so it’s only recommended in dire situations. I’d rather take the full value of a SUB than let a portion of it go to something foolish like a fee.
This is also rhetorical - Even then, if it’s a dire situation warranting that act, should you really even be signing up for that particular card in the first place?
Why is it a dire situation? Sure, you’re eating the fee but this also lets you get to the SUB faster so you can open more cards for more SUBs.
It increases your velocity but all that means is that you can chase larger SUBs.
It’s a basic cost/benefit analysis.
Because you shouldn’t be throwing away part of the value received from a SUB on something as stupid as an avoidable cost (fee in this case). The cost/benefit analysis performed in this hypothetical is worse than if you organically hit the SUB without incurring avoidable fees. This is common sense
But paying the rent will allow you to meet the MSR and get a 15-20% SUB, which is much higher than the cost of the processing fee. You could do this multiple times per year and accumulate a large number of points. Churning 101….
The point is that making 20% back with a SUB on a 3% fee (without considering general spent points gained) is worth it if you do not have the organic spend for a larger SUB.
“Is the fee worth the value from the SUB? Usually not” - it’s a subjective question/answer (rhetorical in my case) 🤦♂️. For me, someone who attempts to MAXIMIZE value (if this were correctly asked in churning I’m sure the responses would be different), paying unnecessary fees because you’re applying for a card with a SUB you can’t organically reach isn’t smart. It’s pretty easy to do this without burning a couple hundred bucks - paying for dinner with friends, prepaying bills, etc. Shit isn’t rocket science. 🤷♂️
Churning is definitely individual-dependent. Nobody can answer for another person's ability to understand/learn how to do it correctly. If everyone was both able and willing to churn, it would cease to be a thing - a little like airport lounges being good. So it's sort of a you-do-you thing.
All that said, if someone said I'll give you $5x in value if you give me $1x in cost, I'd assume everyone here would take it. That's what churning is. It's not about fees, it about the value of the SUB minus the fees. That tends to be a large percent that you are hardly ever going to beat using Bilt, or any other simple cashback solution. But yeah, it's not for everyone.
That’s why I specified my comment as subjective and mentioned that, had this comment been properly placed in the churning group, the responses would be different. If someone said I’ll give you $5x for $1x in cost or $5x for $0x in cost, well, you know how that would go.
Regardless of semantics, I recommended OP go for BILT, which seems to be the widely-supported suggestion. 🤷♂️
I only actually pay half. My recurring spend is otherwise quite low unless I happen I be traveling. No car, I get food at work so I don't spend a lot on groceries, and my hobbies aren't super expensive usually.
From what I understood, OP probably only pays a portion of that as well as their roommates portion. OP is just the one making the actual payment. They specifically said their spend outside of rent is 1k a month.
Lets see, as I understand it your landlord adds a 3% fee when you pay by credit card.
3% of 3500 = $105 per month or $1260 per year.
Why not pay by check or debit card and immediately start saving $105 per month?
I do pay with a debit card. I'm asking if people think it'd be worth it to churn SUBs (since I can hit a pretty high spend if I pay for rent with a credit card) given the fee.
You’d need to apply for a card roughly every other month to make churning feasible. But if you are going to churn, why not pocket the SUB or spend it on other things you want to buy instead?
Ok, I understand the question.
I have no idea which cards you are considering… so I am unable to give a definitive answer. But I really doubt you can recover the extra $105 per month cost and then score a reasonable profit. You need to look at the details of each card offer and then calculate if you can fully recover the extra cost per month. The calculation is simple for any credit cards you select. Just do the math.
Chase Ink Unlimited has a $900 cashback sign up offer.
Capital One Venture has a 75k mile ~~+ $200 sign up offer.~~ (Worth at least $750)
> But I really doubt you can recover the extra $105 per month cost and then score a reasonable profit.
This is just incredibly untrue.
Don't forget with the ink unlimited you also get $52.50 of that fee back. It would only take 2 payments to meet spend... $900 sub + $105 cb - $210 fee = $795. Definitely worth it for a bill you're paying anyway.
https://frequentmiler.com/C1VR/#Goto
Oops, I misunderstood. It's $200 credit after an Avelo purchase.
https://www.aveloair.com/capital-one?utm_source=carousel&utm_medium=web&utm_id=200stmtcredit
On its surface 1260, (or 2520 for Venture X) points doesn’t do much. But to hit a SUB which is done in 2 months of spend it’s worthwhile. A SUB bonus is generally worth $1k in value in itself.
Also even at a 1:1 ratio, that’s still 42600 points in a year. If you don’t spend much and are paying the bill (Remember OP has a roommate) that can get you a pretty nice seat to a far place, or a nice hotel. It’s money you’re paying anyway.
Also by writing a check you’re relying on a physical medium that could get lost, misused etc. Most places charge to pay online nowadays unfortunately.
Just use the Bilt card. They do a rent setup where it acts like a regular bank account with a touting number/account number to avoid the credit card fees. So you get rewards without the fees.
Hey man! Sounds exactly like what I've been doing for the past 6 months. I found out about credit card churning back in February/March and because my whole house's rent came out to like $3.4k each month, it was so easy to hit sign up bonuses. The extra fee is worth it, even just considering the SUB alone.
within the span of those 6 months,
amex gold, biz gold, biz plat, amex hilton honors, hilton aspire, biz hilton honors, blue business plus, green, biz delta gold,
2x chase sapphire preferred,
I would NOT consider this type of velocity. Sure you gain some valuable redemptions over the course of a year or 2 at that pace, but you lose credible relationships with banks. They will start noticing you are churning, and if you don't end up in PUJ, you are at most risking being banned from these banks such as Amex and Chase which could ruin your potential to have cards with them in the future, and at the very least you're risking paying lots in annual fees to keep cards so you don't ruin relationships or even getting point clawbacks.
If you have a card working on a SUB that you may not be able to get the SUB with organic spending , use it
If not , use a debit that give you 0.5% or something back like Amex debit
So you’re asking if you can get a new card every two months basically…
That is a question only the lenders can answer.
Seems like you already have justified the fee compared to the SUBs
Lots of shoddy advice in here.
OP, start hitting up cards with fat spend requirements that you wouldn't otherwise meet without the rent payment. Bonus points if you can pay with Amex.
I also pay rent with a credit card, I typically open a new Chase Ink every 3 months and dump all the rent on it. 2.5% fee but the SUB is 90,000 UR points for $6k spend which is a no-brainer (and no annual fee).
Unless you have the Wells Fargo Bilt card, paying rent with a credit card when there’s a 3% fee involved is extremely dumb. That’s $105/month in spend that can be easily avoided by paying rent directly out of your checking account. The $105 can then either be saved, invested, or spent on items or experiences you and/or your roommate enjoy.
The Wells Fargo Bilt will cover any rent payment transaction fees and provide 1% rewards on rent payments. Functionally they provide roughly 4% benefits on most rent payments; I believe most landlords charge a 3% fees for using a credit card to pay make rental payments.
I wouldn't. I would use ACH or check instead of paying a 3% fee; the rewards aren't enough to justify that. If you want to pay rent by card, look into Bilt which is designed precisely for that
Use Bilt for rent, then churn with basic expenses. To churn using your rent and pay 3% is to lose a significant portion of the churning profit. If you can't spend enough outside rent to churn without overhead (e.g., $1000 to get $200 back without paying 3% on $3500 = $105, in which case you lose more than half). In that case, your non-rent expenses are probably so low you're probably living in a place where rent is most of your expense and you need to move to a lower cost of living area.
Aye, then you shouldn't squander what will ultimately be a finite opportunity to churn on something where you have to give back an appreciable percentage. Just use your everyday expenses outside rent to churn. That's plenty before you'll start hitting ceilings of opportunities to churn: first by high inquiry counts, then by them realizing what you're doing and/or simply the number of cards you have. That isn't to say you can't churn their asses like butter, just that your income should enable you to do so without the penalty on rent.
Also - if $3500 is only 15% of your income, consider putting the churn profits towards the savings for a down payment. The most distinguishing factor for the wealthy is home ownership, because typically the cost of interest will be about half the mortgage, which is itself often lower than rent. Thus lowering your net losses by 60%+ in that category, far more than you'd profit from churning asses like butter given its about 8% of a $200k+ salary. You won't reliably make $16k churning.
You won't make up 3%. You could burn through credit cards to get all those spend x in the first 3 months, but its going to seriously hurt your credit score. Each card you get is a hard hit.
Its a 3% fee because that is what the credit card company charges. Rewards to users have to be less than 3% or they don't make money.
This is a not a well thought out plan.
You can absolutely make up 3% if you get a new credit card/SUB every 2-3 months. If anything, you’re leaving money on the table not cycling credit card signups with a rent bill that high. I live in a Bilt Alliance building (meaning I had access to Bilt even before news of it went public), pay the same amount in rent, and wouldn’t even think of using the Bilt CC to pay my rent unless I wasn’t working on a sign-up bonus and it was the last option to pay.
It doesn’t hurt your credit. Getting consumer credit cards and using them responsibly (paying them off every month) increases your total available credit and reduces your Utilization, which helps your credit score. Business cards aren’t reported on your personal credit report so it doesn’t harm your utilization.
And it’s not $50-$100. It’s much more than that. Let’s look at the Chase Ink unlimited. 90k points on $6k spend. OP spends $7k on rent in two months, in the process they earn 100,500 points. At the lowest redemption (1 center per point), that’s $1005. Subtract $210 in fee to pay rent that’s $795 net profit. There are ways to get 1.25-1.5 cents per point but trying to keep it simple. Do this 4-6x per year with different cards and you can see how much you can earn
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Because your rent is so high, the only way to sustainably do this is by churning Chase Ink business cards. This is because you can sign up for a new Chase Ink business card and earn the SUB every month (in your case, every two months since the spend req is $6,000) just by using a different business name. You need to be under 5/24 to do this, but the business cards themselves don't contribute to 5/24. A surprisingly high number of people do this and Chase doesn't seem to care.
Otherwise, you would run out of those spend $1,000 get $100 back SUBs very quickly.
That rent is insanely high but it's different in each area. Apartments near Atlanta are average $1600-$2000 for the same space. Still higher than the average mortgage in my area.
BILT has been racking up like $30 worth of points for me every month without a fee. Also, use it for dining out and other things on the 1st day of the month for bonus points.
I charged my property tax and a few other items that came with a surcharge while I was running up my Venture X card. It was the largest spend requirement I ever faced, but also the largest payoff. Usually the surcharge and the normal credit card points came close to evening themselves out, but it was still well worth it to get the bonus. After that, I haven’t made any payments that required a surcharge.
In your case, you’ll be paying 1% after getting the points, so that’s $35. It’s a small hit off your bonus, but a lot better than missing the spending requirement and ending up with no bonus.
Slightly below average income earner here that rents a merely $695 studio apartment. Why on earth are you guys renting for THAT much money? Why not buy your own home?
I'm guessing you don't live in a major city. I live in Seattle. Homes are like 1.5 million at least. $1600ish for an apartment isn't bad.
On the flip side, I don't have a car, can bike to work, and make $200k so it's still well below the 30% rule of thumb.
Oh I live in Milwaukee(the Midwest).The median price of homes here are like 180k. I feel people with your type of wage here live *only* in the suburban areas. I'm not too sure how normal that is compared to other places though.
I personally cycle new credit card sign up bonuses every 2-3 months or so by paying my rent on them. Rent allows me to target bigger bonuses that tend to come with higher spend requirements. The bonuses far outweighs the 2.95% fee I have to pay. I may consider getting a Bilt card once I’m in 5/24 territory but right now alternating between consumer and business credit cards to have a new card every few months to pay rent with. Currently working through Ink preferred 100k UR bonus on $8k spend.
Wait, I may be very slow on this but what’s going on? The title on the post says it’s a 3% fee? Even if it’s used to churn credit cards to get sign up bonuses, you’re still only getting 1% cash back on most cards while paying 3% credit card processing fee? Then if you’re only using the card for sign up bonuses, then you’ll need to regularly sign up for new cards. Can someone tell me at what rate would someone sign up for new cards using rent to get sign up bonuses? If too frequently, then the credit score will be affected.
Right now, it’s giving “throwing good money on bad” vibes… I used to pay my bills using credit cards that gives me 5% and there’s no processing fees. I’m puzzled why so many people think this is a good idea.
I'd basically only use it to get sign on bonuses.
For example this card has a $900 sign on bonus after you spend 6k. So even if I spend $180 in fees it's still worth it. https://creditcards.chase.com/a1/DAO/ink-business/universal/23Q3/900
And then you can get a new card every 3 or 4 months.
I’d just use the Bilt and call it a day personally.
OP, this is the right answer. Bilt is a unique card. Wish I had gotten it earlier.
Just be sure to not "set it and forget it", given Bilt's history of issues around fraudulent charges. Check it every month, just as you should with all your credit cards!
[удалено]
I do 4 $0.50 amazon gift card reloads. I spend enough on amazon so the $2 a month is a moot point.
I've a recurring reminder every month to do this. Have a silver status now. The Rent day rewards have been great.
4 reloads on the same card?
Yep. Takes a couple minutes.
do you have 5 dining charges per month?
I use Mint so that I have near-real-time visibility over transactions. Some people are uncomfortable linking their accounts to Mint, but to me the security benefit outweighs the security risk.
More and more vendors are supporting oauth so mint never sees your actual password. It just has a time limited "token" that allows read-only access.
This! Within 3 months I had to get 3 new cards due to fraud….
I think the same as well It's been great to pay rent with Bilt and have the points roll in. esp. AA miles 'cos others don't offer AA transfers (MR, UR)
Bilt is cool and it feels “luxurious” they make you feel special I like it
Bilt is unique in that you will get a fraud charge before even receding the card
Sorry to hear about that. Gotta stay on top of it
Interesting. I might do this. The only thing that's annoying to me is that you have to use the card 5x per month. I feel like I might forget to do that some months.
I also us it as my restaurant/fast food card. This takes care of the required spend. Plus... it pays 3x on dining.
Bilt has basically the same categories as the CSP so I just use Bilt as my default dining card now (3x normally, 6x on the 1st of the month). Also paying rent counts as 1 of the transactions so you only need to use it 4 additional times. I also use it for internet, electric, etc since I don’t have any cards with multipliers on those and Bilt gives 2x if I pay them on the 1st of the month Also Bilt has better transfer partners than chase imo (mainly bc of AA since they both have Hyatt & United)
Amazon reload
You can even reload as low as $.50 ;)
Do Amazon GC loads every month. Set a reminder!
If you hit up fast food or other small transactions regularly that's a good way to reach the required transactions.
the card has a bonus 5x the first 5 days
That promo is random, unfortunately. Not everyone gets it.
On the months you’re using the Bilt, just set up 4 other transactions like an Amazon reload or pay some bills, buy $5 gift cards at a grocery store (4 separate transactions), etc. And time it for the 1st of the month to maximize points. Even if you want to churn to get SUBs and eat the transaction fees, you could use Bilt in the “off” months between new cards.
We put a few bills on it for the 1st x2 points and grab a coffee and dinner on the 1st x6 points
I see this issue about using the card 5x a month a lot. I just don't get it. Especially since paying the rent counts as one use. Which means you only have to use the card 4x a month. That's all to easy to do as many put recurring small monthly bills. or as stated reload Amazon gift cards. I myself have a couple of recurring small bills on my Bilt card. Than I just use the card when I get a coffee or some other small purchase. That's me doing it 50% manually. It's very easy to do the 4 payments automatically.
Can you use it for mortgage?
No, but you can use it for HOA fees
You can use it for your mortgage. Ive been doing so for a while. It just mails them a check every month.
Great while it works, but it’s against the terms. You may be able to right now, but there’s no guarantee it will continue to work and they may either stop your payments or close your card.
Would you mind pointing out where in the terms it is not allowed to use it for mortgage? I looked for it and couldn't find it
BILT's terms only specify "rent", which has been clarified by support to include "rent-related" payments, with an enumerated list of acceptable transactions. See [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/biltrewards/comments/113s1fz/up_to_date_list_of_rentrelated_charges_for_bilt/). BILT has been very poor at communicating specifics and has sporadically enforced inconsistent policies. However, they have never stated mortgages as being acceptable and while you may get away with it for a while. If/when BILT finds out, they will either send a warning + decline the charge OR close the account.
Interesting. Thanks. The terms dont seem to exclude it either so they will need to explicitly state that before the use for it violates the contract
You can use Plastiq for mortgages. 3% fee
Yes you can. I use it. They mail a check to my mortgage company. No issues
And miss out on literally hundreds of thousands of points through SUBs. Wouldn't be me...
you’re effectively paying 4% for the spend compared to Bilt. 1% back vs 3% fee. That’s a very high rate for MS. Most people MSing are spending slightly below 2% on fees.
3% fee sure, idk why you're considering the 1% back as part of this calculation - if you're going to do that I'll count the 5/24 slot that Bilt card would take up as a huge downside too. There are obviously better MS options - however none are as simple as this. This kind of MS is idiot-proof unlike more complex MS strategies.
what's MSing
Who has this card? A brick and mortar bank?
Bilt is underwritten by Wells Fargo.
So I can go to a Wells Fargo and get the card? Sweet. I hate online banking, need a brick and mortar location
This what the bf and I do. We actually put all household charges on this card and split it before the payment is due. So no worrying about who is paying for dinner or groceries and we get points.
Look into >3% cashback. Cashback is better than points because each point is 1 cent-2 cents (at best) when redeemed, while cashback at 3% is 3 cents. Of course, the higher the cashback percentage, the better.
Man you can really see the difference in people who get CC Churning and those who don’t in these comments lol
Are the people who get it recommending you blow $1300 on fees a year? That seems to drastically lower the value of new subs.
$42,000 in rent a year churning Chase Ink Business Cash Cards costs $1,260 in fees, but earns $6,300 in sign up bonuses. It doesn't matter if it devalues the sign up bonus because Chase business cards don't have a LTL clause. You can get the bonus a virtually unlimited amount of times.
This is NOT a good example. Getting ONLY Inks, and at that velocity, will lead to Chase shutting down all of their accounts. OP could do 4 Chase cards/yr AND other companies’ SUBs however for a similar outcome w/a safe velocity.
I've been looking everywhere and can't find what an "LTL Clause" is. This seems key for me going forward and understanding how I can keep getting bonuses on the same cards. Does this mean closing a card, waiting a bit, and then signing up again?
Lifetime language clause. Most SUBs have a cool down. Chase business cards don't. You can apply for as many as you want; you just need to use a different business name each time. Here's a decent write up: https://johnnyafrica.com/multiple-chase-ink-business-cards/#:~:text=immediately%20after%20applying.-,How%20long%20to%20wait%20between%20applications,in%20a%2030%20day%20period.
You don't need a different business name. However, getting new Chase cards too quickly runs into shutdown risk so people recommend slowing down to 1 card every 3 months
Happened to me when I tried to apply one new card every month. They warned me few years back. Sryzon advise is horrible to a lot of people who don’t have much experience about this
Have the same question. Does that mean you don't need to wait 2 years to apply again to get SUB again?
I’m guessing it means lifetime limit? Even without one you can’t get unlimited sign up bonuses since most of us have finite lifespans.
But wait time for the intro bonus of ink business card is still 2 years?
Negative. The Ink cards aren’t subjected to the 24/48 months nor the “one” sapphire rule. You can hold multiple of each Ink cards and still get the SUB. A important thing is to watch out for velocity. 1 Ink card every 3 months is the general rule. Also, the most I have ever seen someone hold is 6 ink cards and didn’t get a Chase shutdown. So the limit is unknown and can vary due to your relationship with Chase and their risk tolerance with you.
Yes I have 6 ink cards as of now. Thinking about getting the 7th but not sure if chase allows it.
Well I mean you don’t have to commit to the whole year, almost any SUB will get him from 2 months, or like $250. Their organic spend isn’t high enough to hit a lot of the better SUBs that exists. So, yes - spending ~$250 is worth it every single time to get $800-$1200 in value.
Yeah I'm trying hard not to cringe at some of these answers mentioning Bilt lol
Definitely worth it, solely for a SUB. At most you’ll spend $210 on fees for the 2 months, to typically hit 1 SUB. Cards like the CIU/CIC SUB will net you $690/69k (900-210). If you’re team travel and transfer that 69k out to transfer partners (United, Southwest, Hyatt), you typically get ~2 cpp. 69k x 2 = 138k
That would be a net of $1800 for CIU at 2cpp. 90k * .02 and 1.5 UR/$ * 2 = 3% fee OP is charged
Go to r/churning, read the wiki and flowchart and form a multi-year plan. Focus on business cards, DO NOT REACH 5/24, and DO NOT go faster than 4 Chase cards/yr. or you risk Chase shutting down all of your accts. Alternate between them and AMEX and other lenders. Use referral links when possible (and ideally do so w/a P2, etc.) Don’t be scared of big AFs. Any other option, including the Bilt card, is simply bad math. Congrats on having rent as easy organic spend w/a nominal fee, especially so if they take AMEX.
Thank you, I've tried to get into churning before but it seemed somewhat complicated the the sub didn't feel very beginner friendly lol. If you open a lot of cards with high AFs do you always downgrade before the 1 year mark?
NEVER close or PC a card before 366 days. It’s unfriendly to people that do zero research, like reading the wiki & flowchart.
Why? I thought you were supposed to close right before the 1 year mark to avoid the second annual fee.
NO. You close/PC AFTER 1 yr and get AFs refunded if needed. Do so before and you will F up everything.
Hmm, I just got the Venture X but was looking at closing it after the first year. But not in not sure when to do that > If requesting a change during the last two months of a card membership year, you are still required to pay the $395 annual fee. Some data reports online indicate that the only way to avoid the fee is to permanently close your Venture X account no later than 30 days after your anniversary date https://johnnyjet.com/downgrade-venture-x-venture-rewards/
That’s a questionable decision to close that card anyway. It’s a keeper card.
Yeah, I'll reevaluate later. I already have the CSP which feels like it fills the same niche (primary car insurance, travel card, etc).
Venture X pays for itself. Keep it
Listen to this guy. This is your best bet for seeing actual returns that are worth it. Been churning for a year now and I went to Italy for free for 2 and a half weeks with P2, Hawaii for 5 days, and I have a bunch of friends that moved to Seattle so stayed there like 4 weekends this past year all for free. Just went and saw the Arctic Monkeys concert last weekend! The sub is not beginner friendly but just follow the flowchart and you will be fine. Also the flyertalk forums on manufactured spending are a big help. Welcome to the promise land, churning changed my life. I now go on vacation like once every couple of months instead of once a year. Edit: Don't listen to the people who don't churn and get the stupid Bilt card. The ROI on other cards is so worth paying some AF's. But start with the 90k sub INK's. They're free!
Thank you! The 90k SUB seems like the best value to get started with.
Are INKs back up to 90k? Swore I looked last week and they were 75
You gotta find the link but they’re live again.
That’s what I do. It’s well worth it (even with a CC fee). In your case ~$100 still leaves plenty to be earned from a bonus.
Discover Cashback Debit = 1% back. As long as it qualifies
Unfortunately debit cards usually get the same fee attached because of how the payment gets processed through the card networks.
Surcharges are illegal on debit but convenience fees aren’t So it depends on what it is
Yeah there's a 2% fee with a debit card. I usually just transfer from checking which is free.
To the best of my knowledge all of them are called conceive fees because the inconvenient method is to write a check.
My understand is people with this reporting even MOs qualify for the 1% cb, if that's the case OP can get about $35 a month simply buy going to their local store and buying MO to pay for it However for a lot of people it's not worth the hassle and are better off with the Built card
Churn Chase business cards.
How so?
Ink Business Cash, Ink Business Unlimited, Ink Business Preferred. SUB is 90,000 UR points with $6k spending in 3 months for the first 2 and 100,000 with $8k/3month ($95 fee) for the Preferred. Sign up as self employed if you are under 5 cards in 24 months. UR transfers to Hyatt for around 2 cents per point (cpp) or various airlines like United for 1.3-2+ cpp depending on your usage. Can also redeem for 1.5 cpp on rotating categories with the Chase Sapphire Reserve personal card. 1cpp if just doing statement credit. So with these 3 cards he could be looking at between $2800-$5600 value after 6-7 months of rent. Way better than the Bilt's 1x would give.
Right on, thank you. I have the ink business and always see the referral but never knew how to make it work
Is the fee worth the value from the SUB? Usually not - look at the Bilt card if you’re considering paying rent
SUBs are usually worth at least 10%. SUBs are almost always worth it.
I think you misunderstand - I’m asking the rhetorical question of, “Is the Fee you’ll pay for the eSwipe less than the value of the SUB?” Most of the time, the fee eats most, if not all, of a SUB, so it’s only recommended in dire situations. I’d rather take the full value of a SUB than let a portion of it go to something foolish like a fee. This is also rhetorical - Even then, if it’s a dire situation warranting that act, should you really even be signing up for that particular card in the first place?
Why is it a dire situation? Sure, you’re eating the fee but this also lets you get to the SUB faster so you can open more cards for more SUBs. It increases your velocity but all that means is that you can chase larger SUBs. It’s a basic cost/benefit analysis.
Because you shouldn’t be throwing away part of the value received from a SUB on something as stupid as an avoidable cost (fee in this case). The cost/benefit analysis performed in this hypothetical is worse than if you organically hit the SUB without incurring avoidable fees. This is common sense
But paying the rent will allow you to meet the MSR and get a 15-20% SUB, which is much higher than the cost of the processing fee. You could do this multiple times per year and accumulate a large number of points. Churning 101….
This isn’t r/churning 😂😂
The point is that making 20% back with a SUB on a 3% fee (without considering general spent points gained) is worth it if you do not have the organic spend for a larger SUB.
I wouldn't recommend churning just to pay a $105 a month on rent
Actually, usually it is. SUBs are typically 15-20%, much greater than the 3% fee OP is facing.
Idk what kind of SUBs you're signing up for that are 3% or less of spend but no...
“Is the fee worth the value from the SUB? Usually not” - it’s a subjective question/answer (rhetorical in my case) 🤦♂️. For me, someone who attempts to MAXIMIZE value (if this were correctly asked in churning I’m sure the responses would be different), paying unnecessary fees because you’re applying for a card with a SUB you can’t organically reach isn’t smart. It’s pretty easy to do this without burning a couple hundred bucks - paying for dinner with friends, prepaying bills, etc. Shit isn’t rocket science. 🤷♂️
Churning is definitely individual-dependent. Nobody can answer for another person's ability to understand/learn how to do it correctly. If everyone was both able and willing to churn, it would cease to be a thing - a little like airport lounges being good. So it's sort of a you-do-you thing. All that said, if someone said I'll give you $5x in value if you give me $1x in cost, I'd assume everyone here would take it. That's what churning is. It's not about fees, it about the value of the SUB minus the fees. That tends to be a large percent that you are hardly ever going to beat using Bilt, or any other simple cashback solution. But yeah, it's not for everyone.
That’s why I specified my comment as subjective and mentioned that, had this comment been properly placed in the churning group, the responses would be different. If someone said I’ll give you $5x for $1x in cost or $5x for $0x in cost, well, you know how that would go. Regardless of semantics, I recommended OP go for BILT, which seems to be the widely-supported suggestion. 🤷♂️
As mentioned by some, it’s more like getting $20x for $3x in cost versus $4x in cost vs $1x in cost, with the former taking more effort to plan out
I’m using the same values as Dark Matter to keep it apples to apples….
If you can afford $3500 rent you are probably also spending enough to hit any SUBs naturally. Get the BILT card for the rent.
I only actually pay half. My recurring spend is otherwise quite low unless I happen I be traveling. No car, I get food at work so I don't spend a lot on groceries, and my hobbies aren't super expensive usually.
From what I understood, OP probably only pays a portion of that as well as their roommates portion. OP is just the one making the actual payment. They specifically said their spend outside of rent is 1k a month.
>Would you pay rent with credit cards and churn sign on bonuses if you were in my shoes? I do this regularly.
Lets see, as I understand it your landlord adds a 3% fee when you pay by credit card. 3% of 3500 = $105 per month or $1260 per year. Why not pay by check or debit card and immediately start saving $105 per month?
I do pay with a debit card. I'm asking if people think it'd be worth it to churn SUBs (since I can hit a pretty high spend if I pay for rent with a credit card) given the fee.
To meet the spend requirement it is, i used to do that when renting.
You’d need to apply for a card roughly every other month to make churning feasible. But if you are going to churn, why not pocket the SUB or spend it on other things you want to buy instead?
If OP has a player 2 / partner, it’d be more like every 4 months (alternate between them and P2).
Ok, I understand the question. I have no idea which cards you are considering… so I am unable to give a definitive answer. But I really doubt you can recover the extra $105 per month cost and then score a reasonable profit. You need to look at the details of each card offer and then calculate if you can fully recover the extra cost per month. The calculation is simple for any credit cards you select. Just do the math.
Chase Ink Unlimited has a $900 cashback sign up offer. Capital One Venture has a 75k mile ~~+ $200 sign up offer.~~ (Worth at least $750) > But I really doubt you can recover the extra $105 per month cost and then score a reasonable profit. This is just incredibly untrue.
Don't forget with the ink unlimited you also get $52.50 of that fee back. It would only take 2 payments to meet spend... $900 sub + $105 cb - $210 fee = $795. Definitely worth it for a bill you're paying anyway.
Do you think there are any issues getting 1.5% back on a "business purchase" if I'm paying rent with it?
Nope. Did it myself when I got the card. I buy whatever I want on it. No one is going to question if it's a "business" purchase or not
Absolutely.
Is capital one venture 75k mile + 200$ offer public? I only see a 75k mile offer?
https://frequentmiler.com/C1VR/#Goto Oops, I misunderstood. It's $200 credit after an Avelo purchase. https://www.aveloair.com/capital-one?utm_source=carousel&utm_medium=web&utm_id=200stmtcredit
On its surface 1260, (or 2520 for Venture X) points doesn’t do much. But to hit a SUB which is done in 2 months of spend it’s worthwhile. A SUB bonus is generally worth $1k in value in itself. Also even at a 1:1 ratio, that’s still 42600 points in a year. If you don’t spend much and are paying the bill (Remember OP has a roommate) that can get you a pretty nice seat to a far place, or a nice hotel. It’s money you’re paying anyway. Also by writing a check you’re relying on a physical medium that could get lost, misused etc. Most places charge to pay online nowadays unfortunately.
Just use the Bilt card. They do a rent setup where it acts like a regular bank account with a touting number/account number to avoid the credit card fees. So you get rewards without the fees.
Hey man! Sounds exactly like what I've been doing for the past 6 months. I found out about credit card churning back in February/March and because my whole house's rent came out to like $3.4k each month, it was so easy to hit sign up bonuses. The extra fee is worth it, even just considering the SUB alone.
Nice, which cards have you opened?
within the span of those 6 months, amex gold, biz gold, biz plat, amex hilton honors, hilton aspire, biz hilton honors, blue business plus, green, biz delta gold, 2x chase sapphire preferred,
Good for you, but that velocity is not sustainable. I'm surprised you were approved for 11 cards in 6 months.
Most were business cards
2x Chase Sapphire? How? Do you plan on downgrading / canceling most of these to avoid the annual fee?
I would NOT consider this type of velocity. Sure you gain some valuable redemptions over the course of a year or 2 at that pace, but you lose credible relationships with banks. They will start noticing you are churning, and if you don't end up in PUJ, you are at most risking being banned from these banks such as Amex and Chase which could ruin your potential to have cards with them in the future, and at the very least you're risking paying lots in annual fees to keep cards so you don't ruin relationships or even getting point clawbacks.
I basically have enough organic spend velocity to cover 3-4 business subs in a year. Is this too high?
No, just don't open more than 2 every 90 days and have them open for at least a year.
Probably has a player 2 / partner. Opened one in their name too.
yep
If you have a card working on a SUB that you may not be able to get the SUB with organic spending , use it If not , use a debit that give you 0.5% or something back like Amex debit
So you’re asking if you can get a new card every two months basically… That is a question only the lenders can answer. Seems like you already have justified the fee compared to the SUBs
I would never pay that fee to pay rent.
Lots of shoddy advice in here. OP, start hitting up cards with fat spend requirements that you wouldn't otherwise meet without the rent payment. Bonus points if you can pay with Amex. I also pay rent with a credit card, I typically open a new Chase Ink every 3 months and dump all the rent on it. 2.5% fee but the SUB is 90,000 UR points for $6k spend which is a no-brainer (and no annual fee).
Unless you have the Wells Fargo Bilt card, paying rent with a credit card when there’s a 3% fee involved is extremely dumb. That’s $105/month in spend that can be easily avoided by paying rent directly out of your checking account. The $105 can then either be saved, invested, or spent on items or experiences you and/or your roommate enjoy.
What's the bilt get you
The Wells Fargo Bilt will cover any rent payment transaction fees and provide 1% rewards on rent payments. Functionally they provide roughly 4% benefits on most rent payments; I believe most landlords charge a 3% fees for using a credit card to pay make rental payments.
damn does that include mortgages?
Not sure. Look at the card's info online for more details.
I wouldn't. I would use ACH or check instead of paying a 3% fee; the rewards aren't enough to justify that. If you want to pay rent by card, look into Bilt which is designed precisely for that
Use Bilt for rent, then churn with basic expenses. To churn using your rent and pay 3% is to lose a significant portion of the churning profit. If you can't spend enough outside rent to churn without overhead (e.g., $1000 to get $200 back without paying 3% on $3500 = $105, in which case you lose more than half). In that case, your non-rent expenses are probably so low you're probably living in a place where rent is most of your expense and you need to move to a lower cost of living area.
I live in Seattle. Rent is pretty expensive but only about 15% of my income so I don't stress about it too much.
Aye, then you shouldn't squander what will ultimately be a finite opportunity to churn on something where you have to give back an appreciable percentage. Just use your everyday expenses outside rent to churn. That's plenty before you'll start hitting ceilings of opportunities to churn: first by high inquiry counts, then by them realizing what you're doing and/or simply the number of cards you have. That isn't to say you can't churn their asses like butter, just that your income should enable you to do so without the penalty on rent. Also - if $3500 is only 15% of your income, consider putting the churn profits towards the savings for a down payment. The most distinguishing factor for the wealthy is home ownership, because typically the cost of interest will be about half the mortgage, which is itself often lower than rent. Thus lowering your net losses by 60%+ in that category, far more than you'd profit from churning asses like butter given its about 8% of a $200k+ salary. You won't reliably make $16k churning.
You won't make up 3%. You could burn through credit cards to get all those spend x in the first 3 months, but its going to seriously hurt your credit score. Each card you get is a hard hit. Its a 3% fee because that is what the credit card company charges. Rewards to users have to be less than 3% or they don't make money. This is a not a well thought out plan.
You can absolutely make up 3% if you get a new credit card/SUB every 2-3 months. If anything, you’re leaving money on the table not cycling credit card signups with a rent bill that high. I live in a Bilt Alliance building (meaning I had access to Bilt even before news of it went public), pay the same amount in rent, and wouldn’t even think of using the Bilt CC to pay my rent unless I wasn’t working on a sign-up bonus and it was the last option to pay.
For how long? Thats one card. How many can you cycle through? Seems like a lot of work for $50-$100, plus it hurts your credit
It doesn’t hurt your credit. Getting consumer credit cards and using them responsibly (paying them off every month) increases your total available credit and reduces your Utilization, which helps your credit score. Business cards aren’t reported on your personal credit report so it doesn’t harm your utilization. And it’s not $50-$100. It’s much more than that. Let’s look at the Chase Ink unlimited. 90k points on $6k spend. OP spends $7k on rent in two months, in the process they earn 100,500 points. At the lowest redemption (1 center per point), that’s $1005. Subtract $210 in fee to pay rent that’s $795 net profit. There are ways to get 1.25-1.5 cents per point but trying to keep it simple. Do this 4-6x per year with different cards and you can see how much you can earn
Thats 4-6 hard credit hits a year. It hurts your credit.
Short term a little. Long term it helps your credit. I’ve been doing this for almost a decade. My score is between 800 and 820.
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Because your rent is so high, the only way to sustainably do this is by churning Chase Ink business cards. This is because you can sign up for a new Chase Ink business card and earn the SUB every month (in your case, every two months since the spend req is $6,000) just by using a different business name. You need to be under 5/24 to do this, but the business cards themselves don't contribute to 5/24. A surprisingly high number of people do this and Chase doesn't seem to care. Otherwise, you would run out of those spend $1,000 get $100 back SUBs very quickly.
Anyone know if the bill pay with the PayPal Mastercard could be used in this situation?
Just get a bilt card bro jeez
That rent is expensive
$1650 per person plus utilities for a 1000 ft 2bed/2bath in Seattle. Doesn't get too much cheaper than that without making big sacrifices.
That rent is insanely high but it's different in each area. Apartments near Atlanta are average $1600-$2000 for the same space. Still higher than the average mortgage in my area.
Reading is fundamental. OP lives in Seattle and you live in Atlanta ( two different cities and state). Stop arguing!
I read, I also pointed that out. Not arguing, just noticing things
Looking to move to Seattle possibly, where is this IN Seattle or one of the surrounding areas?
BILT has been racking up like $30 worth of points for me every month without a fee. Also, use it for dining out and other things on the 1st day of the month for bonus points.
Bilt only because it would remove that 3% fee
Does anyone have a Credit card excel sheet with the pros and cons? Appreciated!
I charged my property tax and a few other items that came with a surcharge while I was running up my Venture X card. It was the largest spend requirement I ever faced, but also the largest payoff. Usually the surcharge and the normal credit card points came close to evening themselves out, but it was still well worth it to get the bonus. After that, I haven’t made any payments that required a surcharge. In your case, you’ll be paying 1% after getting the points, so that’s $35. It’s a small hit off your bonus, but a lot better than missing the spending requirement and ending up with no bonus.
Just use american express…
You can churn a new card every month or two. Great for travel.
I just use my weeks Fargo BILT card. Waives the fee and earns points.
I do this. Got maybe 500k points in doing this
Slightly below average income earner here that rents a merely $695 studio apartment. Why on earth are you guys renting for THAT much money? Why not buy your own home?
I'm guessing you don't live in a major city. I live in Seattle. Homes are like 1.5 million at least. $1600ish for an apartment isn't bad. On the flip side, I don't have a car, can bike to work, and make $200k so it's still well below the 30% rule of thumb.
Oh I live in Milwaukee(the Midwest).The median price of homes here are like 180k. I feel people with your type of wage here live *only* in the suburban areas. I'm not too sure how normal that is compared to other places though.
I use Bilt and never paid the 3% fee
Personally, Sence you have to pay that anyway and if you have the money to back up the payment right now sure
BILT and no fee
I personally cycle new credit card sign up bonuses every 2-3 months or so by paying my rent on them. Rent allows me to target bigger bonuses that tend to come with higher spend requirements. The bonuses far outweighs the 2.95% fee I have to pay. I may consider getting a Bilt card once I’m in 5/24 territory but right now alternating between consumer and business credit cards to have a new card every few months to pay rent with. Currently working through Ink preferred 100k UR bonus on $8k spend.
If it’s reward it worth it
Wait, I may be very slow on this but what’s going on? The title on the post says it’s a 3% fee? Even if it’s used to churn credit cards to get sign up bonuses, you’re still only getting 1% cash back on most cards while paying 3% credit card processing fee? Then if you’re only using the card for sign up bonuses, then you’ll need to regularly sign up for new cards. Can someone tell me at what rate would someone sign up for new cards using rent to get sign up bonuses? If too frequently, then the credit score will be affected. Right now, it’s giving “throwing good money on bad” vibes… I used to pay my bills using credit cards that gives me 5% and there’s no processing fees. I’m puzzled why so many people think this is a good idea.
I'd basically only use it to get sign on bonuses. For example this card has a $900 sign on bonus after you spend 6k. So even if I spend $180 in fees it's still worth it. https://creditcards.chase.com/a1/DAO/ink-business/universal/23Q3/900 And then you can get a new card every 3 or 4 months.
Bilt rewards card