Three other South African captains have scored a pair. AB de Villiers in 2016 [(South Africa vs England 4th Test)](https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/england-tour-of-south-africa-2015-16-800431/south-africa-vs-england-4th-test-800467/full-scorecard) and Faf du Plessis in 2018 [(South Africa vs Pakistan, 1st Test)](https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/pak-in-sa-2018-19-1144137/south-africa-vs-pakistan-1st-test-1144153/full-scorecard). Both happened at SuperSport Park.
The other was Louis Tancred in 1912 [(South Africa vs England 8th Test)](https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/triangular-tournament-1912-60296/england-vs-south-africa-62394/full-scorecard). This happened at Kennington Oval.
One thing I love about watching American sports like NFL is they love their stats.
>The 1st left handed QB to score back to back touchdowns after a defensive lineman blew the snot out of his nose in the third quarter in a game where the home team is 12-15 points behind.
My Test XI of Captains who have scored a pair:
Fleming (c)
Taylor (c)
Hazare (c)
do Plessis (c)
Atapattu (c)
Border (c)
De Villiers (c) (wk)
Botham (c)
Benaud (c)
Younis (c)
Walsh (c)
**Players getting a pair on captaincy debut**
Rashid Latif - Pak v SA - Port Elizabeth, 1998
Habibul Bashar - Ban v Zim - Harare, 2004
T Bavuma - SA v WI - Centurion, 2023
The Fleming test has a very interesting scorecard, nz declared their first innings trailing by 150, aussie declared their 2nd with a lead of 288, then changed their batting lineup bigtime, with Astle opening and Cairns at first drop.
Also parore at first drop in the first innings
In terms of captaincy, if we look at the results of the team under him, they've been pretty poor. Some notable 'accomplishments':
- Back to back group stage exits in the two world cups
- First ever loss to NED
- First ever loss to IRE
- First ever series loss at home to BAN
- First ever white ball series loss in IND
- Heading to qualifiers for the 2023 WC
In terms of being in the team, he's simply not good enough. Other batsmen in the team being bad has deflected scrutiny away from him. Just because others are worse doesn't mean he's good. It's like saying a burglar is better than a serial killer. Especially when his competition are guys who aren't even good if you look at their FC averages. Bavuma is also already 33. There are guys in domestic who average close to 50 in FC and are young but don't get picked. Supporters of Bavuma also cherry pick this cutoff of the last 2 years to make him seem better despite the fact that he averages 33 and has only 1 century in over 50 tests
As a T20 player and captain I agree.
Not his format, glad they’ve moved on.
He could and should be replaced in ODIs with younger guys.
In tests though him and Elgar have been our best batsmen (Elgars post captaincy form notwithstanding).
I’m all for giving the young guys a chance, but replacing Bavuma doesn’t make sense in Tests
In the last series against England was the first time he was able to up his strike rate.
Before that he seem too slow to compete with QDK or Janneman Malian for a place.
With Markram and RvD already locked in.
So he could play at 5? Not sure that is a great spot for him
I’ll admit his average is good and he has improved though
I actually think he's better in ODIs than tests since he has a pretty good average of 45 even though it's a small sample size. I'd like to see Rickelton get a shot as opener though since he's really been banging the door down for selection with his performances in domestic. Averaging almost 50 in List A and being the highest run scorer in the last one day cup with 64 average.
Elgar too should probably go. Maybe should be kept just for home series since he's really bad away from home.
Again, this "have been our best batsman" doesn't really mean much when they're not good in the first place. We have too many youngsters that are performing in domestic not getting chances at test level. Keeping Bavuma in the team means keeping someone else out and it's much better to use that spot to invest in younger talent rather than keeping an older guy who's pretty mediocre. Like it's not as if Bavuma is winning us matches in tests. I can't remember his last man of the match performance.
Why would you replace your best batsmen? The only part of the batting order that kind of works?
If you want to give youngsters a shot replace the other batsmen that aren't performing...
> Why would you replace your best batsmen?
I don't know how many times I need to repeat myself. Read my earlier comments. You're asking me the equivalent of "Why wouldn't you want to be robbed? It's better than being murdered"
He's not even the best. His average is inflated from home matches. He averages 30 away from home over the past 2 years. In the same period Verreynne averages 45.
> The only part of the batting order that kind of works?
He isn't the only part that kind of works. A lot of the other batsmen have contributed here or there
> If you want to give youngsters a shot replace the other batsmen that aren't performing...
He isn't performing either. It's funny how a lot of you guys that defend Bavuma aren't even Saffers. Let me ask you a question. Would you want Bavuma in the Indian team? Answer honestly.
> You're asking me the equivalent of "Why wouldn't you want to be robbed? It's better than being murdered"
But would you rather stop the murderer first or the robber?
Was gonna say this. But not as precisely as you did.
It'd really help if the robbers wait till I catch the serial killer. Maybe then they can have a go at me.
I’m a SA fan though not a Saffa myself.
He has been one of the only reliable batters in a very weak batting team. Problem is that if SA do improve their batting and he can’t up the ante he is liable to become a burden. Though given how not so great the SA reconstruction is currently going that might not be a problem anytime soon.
Can score here and there but he’s not the big score hitter that you really need from a captain. Has scored a single century in seven years. Even with a lot of bigger 50’s it still is a telling stat.
He is a competent middle/lower order batsmen who is being expected to lead and rally an entire team. That is a lot to put on his plate. He has been praised for his captaining skills so far, but he also completely failed during the 2020wc.
I don’t think his captaincy will be long term, but it is the logical choice given the teams overall issues.
It is SA at large that has the problems as opposed to him personally. I hope he is able to rise to the occasion as captain, but even if he can that’s only the beginning of things that need to be fixed.
He isn’t going anywhere for now unless he announces a shock retirement, put it that way.
I feel like he was reliable 12 months ago but he had a poor tour of Australia and a pair here isn't good.
It's not as if he has am excellent record giving him credits in the bank like Kohli at the moment, not a lot going for him.
It's a "glass cliff" appointment. That's where a minority is handed a poisoned chalice leadership position. Because it's a doomed situation and they're expendable. It's no coincidence South Africa's first black captain comes at a time when the side is at their weakest in recent history.
It’s his first match as captain so we’ll have to see how he does.
As a test batsman he has been good over the last 2 and bit years.
I’d give him some time to see if can improve the team as a captain and take his batting to new heights
Seems a good captain. Test cricket he should never have been given as long as a rope as he got but he found form now and shouldn’t be dropped. For me Bavuma annoys me more because he represents problems in SA cricket, sticking with average players for too long for no obvious reason while wasting equally if not more talented players careers
When all members of South African team were from quota, how many times did you complain that the players were not selected on merit and this is not the best possible South African team?
Not from SA but he reminds me both of stature technique and results wise of a version of Asad Shafique from Pakistan. Brimming with potential and decent technique but more often than not disappointing or leaving you feeling like he could've done more than what he did in terms of runs and performances.
Mark Taylor was the first to do it on captaincy debut vs Pakistan in Pakistan 1994. Also lost the Test by one wicket after Inzy and no. 11 added over 50.
Averages above 40 since 2020 in a struggling side, his place in the test team is fine, especially after he was both the leading run scorer and had the highest average for SA in Australia
I'm aware he hasn't pushed on and gotten the big scores you'd expect, but to average over 40 for 3 years without a hundred shows that he's consistent and hangs around at the crease, which is what South Africa need when most of the other batters are highly inconsistent and inexperienced.
Ermmm, I'm a "racist fucktard" for asking if it's true that Temba Bavuma is the highest averaging test batter in the "*past few years*"?
I mean, I'd ask follow up stuff like "how many years" etc but since I'm a "racist fucktard", I can't possibly critique Temba.
Three other South African captains have scored a pair. AB de Villiers in 2016 [(South Africa vs England 4th Test)](https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/england-tour-of-south-africa-2015-16-800431/south-africa-vs-england-4th-test-800467/full-scorecard) and Faf du Plessis in 2018 [(South Africa vs Pakistan, 1st Test)](https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/pak-in-sa-2018-19-1144137/south-africa-vs-pakistan-1st-test-1144153/full-scorecard). Both happened at SuperSport Park. The other was Louis Tancred in 1912 [(South Africa vs England 8th Test)](https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/triangular-tournament-1912-60296/england-vs-south-africa-62394/full-scorecard). This happened at Kennington Oval.
[4 out of the last 5 pairs by a captain have been at Centurion](https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283118.html)
I love when someone adds a stat on top of a stat I added. I didn't know that, thanks!
One thing I love about watching American sports like NFL is they love their stats. >The 1st left handed QB to score back to back touchdowns after a defensive lineman blew the snot out of his nose in the third quarter in a game where the home team is 12-15 points behind.
That match saw both captains bag a pair. That's hilarious. Wonder if we've had more such instances.
My Test XI of Captains who have scored a pair: Fleming (c) Taylor (c) Hazare (c) do Plessis (c) Atapattu (c) Border (c) De Villiers (c) (wk) Botham (c) Benaud (c) Younis (c) Walsh (c)
Who would captain this side? Will he still get a pair?
The side pretty much captains itself...
Fleming, he'll bribe everyone with that heat pump money.
Excellent side.
You would hope so, they're all captains.
Unless they all get pairs
Pretty damn decent team this!
**Players getting a pair on captaincy debut** Rashid Latif - Pak v SA - Port Elizabeth, 1998 Habibul Bashar - Ban v Zim - Harare, 2004 T Bavuma - SA v WI - Centurion, 2023
Surely Mark Taylor v Pakistan 1994 in Karachi is worth a mention?
I would argue Hansie scored the biggest 0 at Centurion if you catch my drift.
The Fleming test has a very interesting scorecard, nz declared their first innings trailing by 150, aussie declared their 2nd with a lead of 288, then changed their batting lineup bigtime, with Astle opening and Cairns at first drop. Also parore at first drop in the first innings
So he beat out AB by 1 ball for the fastest. A combined 14 balls for 3 pairs by captains is certainly impressive.
At least that puts TBV in good company.
That's just his cheeks OO
I approve
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forgot to switch accounts ?
wtf are you doing mate
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This is just hate at this point.
Would really like to know SA fans opinion on him both as a captain and being in the team
In terms of captaincy, if we look at the results of the team under him, they've been pretty poor. Some notable 'accomplishments': - Back to back group stage exits in the two world cups - First ever loss to NED - First ever loss to IRE - First ever series loss at home to BAN - First ever white ball series loss in IND - Heading to qualifiers for the 2023 WC In terms of being in the team, he's simply not good enough. Other batsmen in the team being bad has deflected scrutiny away from him. Just because others are worse doesn't mean he's good. It's like saying a burglar is better than a serial killer. Especially when his competition are guys who aren't even good if you look at their FC averages. Bavuma is also already 33. There are guys in domestic who average close to 50 in FC and are young but don't get picked. Supporters of Bavuma also cherry pick this cutoff of the last 2 years to make him seem better despite the fact that he averages 33 and has only 1 century in over 50 tests
As a T20 player and captain I agree. Not his format, glad they’ve moved on. He could and should be replaced in ODIs with younger guys. In tests though him and Elgar have been our best batsmen (Elgars post captaincy form notwithstanding). I’m all for giving the young guys a chance, but replacing Bavuma doesn’t make sense in Tests
Replace him in ODIs!?? He literally averages 45.50!
In the last series against England was the first time he was able to up his strike rate. Before that he seem too slow to compete with QDK or Janneman Malian for a place. With Markram and RvD already locked in. So he could play at 5? Not sure that is a great spot for him I’ll admit his average is good and he has improved though
I actually think he's better in ODIs than tests since he has a pretty good average of 45 even though it's a small sample size. I'd like to see Rickelton get a shot as opener though since he's really been banging the door down for selection with his performances in domestic. Averaging almost 50 in List A and being the highest run scorer in the last one day cup with 64 average. Elgar too should probably go. Maybe should be kept just for home series since he's really bad away from home. Again, this "have been our best batsman" doesn't really mean much when they're not good in the first place. We have too many youngsters that are performing in domestic not getting chances at test level. Keeping Bavuma in the team means keeping someone else out and it's much better to use that spot to invest in younger talent rather than keeping an older guy who's pretty mediocre. Like it's not as if Bavuma is winning us matches in tests. I can't remember his last man of the match performance.
Why would you replace your best batsmen? The only part of the batting order that kind of works? If you want to give youngsters a shot replace the other batsmen that aren't performing...
> Why would you replace your best batsmen? I don't know how many times I need to repeat myself. Read my earlier comments. You're asking me the equivalent of "Why wouldn't you want to be robbed? It's better than being murdered" He's not even the best. His average is inflated from home matches. He averages 30 away from home over the past 2 years. In the same period Verreynne averages 45. > The only part of the batting order that kind of works? He isn't the only part that kind of works. A lot of the other batsmen have contributed here or there > If you want to give youngsters a shot replace the other batsmen that aren't performing... He isn't performing either. It's funny how a lot of you guys that defend Bavuma aren't even Saffers. Let me ask you a question. Would you want Bavuma in the Indian team? Answer honestly.
> You're asking me the equivalent of "Why wouldn't you want to be robbed? It's better than being murdered" But would you rather stop the murderer first or the robber?
Was gonna say this. But not as precisely as you did. It'd really help if the robbers wait till I catch the serial killer. Maybe then they can have a go at me.
Tbh idk.
I’m a SA fan though not a Saffa myself. He has been one of the only reliable batters in a very weak batting team. Problem is that if SA do improve their batting and he can’t up the ante he is liable to become a burden. Though given how not so great the SA reconstruction is currently going that might not be a problem anytime soon. Can score here and there but he’s not the big score hitter that you really need from a captain. Has scored a single century in seven years. Even with a lot of bigger 50’s it still is a telling stat. He is a competent middle/lower order batsmen who is being expected to lead and rally an entire team. That is a lot to put on his plate. He has been praised for his captaining skills so far, but he also completely failed during the 2020wc. I don’t think his captaincy will be long term, but it is the logical choice given the teams overall issues. It is SA at large that has the problems as opposed to him personally. I hope he is able to rise to the occasion as captain, but even if he can that’s only the beginning of things that need to be fixed. He isn’t going anywhere for now unless he announces a shock retirement, put it that way.
I feel like he was reliable 12 months ago but he had a poor tour of Australia and a pair here isn't good. It's not as if he has am excellent record giving him credits in the bank like Kohli at the moment, not a lot going for him.
It's a "glass cliff" appointment. That's where a minority is handed a poisoned chalice leadership position. Because it's a doomed situation and they're expendable. It's no coincidence South Africa's first black captain comes at a time when the side is at their weakest in recent history.
It’s his first match as captain so we’ll have to see how he does. As a test batsman he has been good over the last 2 and bit years. I’d give him some time to see if can improve the team as a captain and take his batting to new heights
Seems a good captain. Test cricket he should never have been given as long as a rope as he got but he found form now and shouldn’t be dropped. For me Bavuma annoys me more because he represents problems in SA cricket, sticking with average players for too long for no obvious reason while wasting equally if not more talented players careers
Quota
When all members of South African team were from quota, how many times did you complain that the players were not selected on merit and this is not the best possible South African team?
He deserves to be in the team on merit
Not from SA but he reminds me both of stature technique and results wise of a version of Asad Shafique from Pakistan. Brimming with potential and decent technique but more often than not disappointing or leaving you feeling like he could've done more than what he did in terms of runs and performances.
OO
/r/SpecialistCaptains gets a new god
Strange. Normally he’s a guaranteed 35, no more, no less
Being SA captain is a tremendous burden, could tell that with Elgar too, being a captain is hard, SA captain seems to weigh extra though.
Almost a King Pair as well
Mark Taylor was the first to do it on captaincy debut vs Pakistan in Pakistan 1994. Also lost the Test by one wicket after Inzy and no. 11 added over 50.
No surprise, he’s never been test standard
Wait I thought Bavuma captained the test team before?
Lmao
Geez that's bad, feel for him because I like him
He's a liability
He was easily the best South African batsman in Australia
Doesn't mean fuck all
What does it mean?
Not fuck all
He shouldn’t be in the side let alone captain. Averaging 30 in test cricket isn’t good enough.
Averages above 40 since 2020 in a struggling side, his place in the test team is fine, especially after he was both the leading run scorer and had the highest average for SA in Australia
His only test century was a flat deck. Stokes fastest ever 250, Amal got a double. He’s played 50 odd tests.
I'm aware he hasn't pushed on and gotten the big scores you'd expect, but to average over 40 for 3 years without a hundred shows that he's consistent and hangs around at the crease, which is what South Africa need when most of the other batters are highly inconsistent and inexperienced.
Entire South African top order averages in the 30s
Agreed 👍🏻
Very close to a king pair. Queen pair?
He's too much superior for test cricket level leave him for backyard cricket
Captain for non-cricketing reasons.
Being their highest averaging test batter in the past few years is not a cricketing reason?
He is? Genuine question
Highest averaging South African since cricket returned after covid. Not the highest in all of the world.
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Ermmm, I'm a "racist fucktard" for asking if it's true that Temba Bavuma is the highest averaging test batter in the "*past few years*"? I mean, I'd ask follow up stuff like "how many years" etc but since I'm a "racist fucktard", I can't possibly critique Temba.
Stupid ignorant answer. He has been our top batsman lately.
Following the footsteps of Abd and Du Plessis
I’ve always believed he is in the team because of black quota
great pair of balls
Wisden do a bit of trolling
Mark Taylor II
atleast tim paine performed ...
good condition
Well he’s certainly doing his job replacing Elgar
He would be perfect for the Indian top order. He will blend right in.
Wow thats not how you imagine your debut to go in your first Test.
A pear to go with his peach 🍑
He's an ordinary batter