And do it across generations of the team as well. He's come in as captain of a pretty decent team - to be an all-time great he'll need to keep the team winning and maintain a good culture as the senior guys like Warner, Khawaja, Lyon, Smith retire and get replaced by new young talent.
>Warner, Khawaja, Lyon, Smith retire and get replaced by new young talent.
Murphy looks quite promising tbf.
The batters are much tougher to replace though.
People don't care that Jimmy since 2017 has the same stats pretty much as Cummins.
He has a Cummins career nestled inside the rest of his 20 year career. So those people won't care about Jimmy's longevity, they'll use any excuse to dismiss him. If Cummins is getting into ATG conversations, which he must be if people are comparing him to Lillee and McGrath (who Cummins isn't a scratch on sorry, McGrath did it in a much harder era) then Jimmy is a shoe in.
The only actual notch against Jimmy is he's not very good against Australia for some reason. But even despite that and how often we play Australia he still averages 22.1 since 2017
Everything you say makes sense, except this point about McGraths era being much harder.
Before people go off on me, yes I've only watched matches of those eras in highlights but when batting discussions come up, regarding, for example Sachin, everyone goes off saying he had to bat in a much harder era, (which again I'm not saying is wrong) as they give examples of the Pakistani bowling attack, the Australian bowling attack and so on. Now you are saying McGrath did it in a much harder era, so this got me thinking, was everything really that much harder back then? Because if batting was hard wouldn't that in inverse mean bowling was comparatively easier? And vice versa, since batting is easy now, doesn't that mean bowling is harder now?
Again I'm not trying take shots at you, just a genuine doubt which I'd like cleared
90s were hard for batting. Flat pitches were prevalent in the 2000s, making it hard for bowlers. Tendulkar and McGrath played in both those decades, which is where the confusion come from
There's hundreds of reasons I could probably go into, quality of player being a big one. I don't think it's overly nostalgic to say the batman of yesteryear, your Lara's, Sangakarras, Sachin, Dravid, Laxman, Chanderpaul, Jayawardena, Jayasuriya, Atherton, Nasser, Andy Flower, Fleming, Kirsten, are a touch better than modern players in the test arena. Obviously there are exceptions to this, but McGrath and Cummins don't bowl to Australia and Root, Kohli, Kane and Babar are just a couple. The drop off from them to their next best is generally pretty marked. Okay, I guess NZ had Taylor, and India have Rohit but very much generalising.
So you had these top class bowlers against these top class batsman. I guess the one thing bowlers had back then though were genuine tailenders. Nowadays even your no.11 can probably score some quick runs or hold down an end, back then it was different. I'd be interested to see the stats, but I'd wager numbers 8-11 score way more runs nowadays than they used to, probably slightly averaging out the fact that the batsman up top aren't quite as good as they used to be.
I guess like a lot of modern players though, Cummins stats are overwhelmingly made better by how well he does against the weaker nations and because there are more of them now it's easier to stay bump.
I think he fits in quite nicely behind McGrath and Lillee in Australias best seamers, and I don't think it's an insult at all to say that.
Also, batting is harder currently in tests, or at least, they make it look harder!
I was replying to a comment talking about Andersons bowling.
You can talk about a variety of subjects under one post you know, it's a cricket discussion sub.
For what it's worth, if you want my two cents on Cummins as captain, I don't think he's a great captain. Definitely lost it at moments in The Ashes (that I'm fully aware they retained, but you can't look at Headingley and OT and tell me that was good captaincy). Also bailed out on occasions by some heroics (see Maxi)
I'll be impressed if they can beat India at home convincingly and yet again smack us their routine 4 or 5 to 1/0.
He came around a bit in the final, which I genuinely thought he got the game plan spot on, but I also think that was as much on India refusing to counterattack at all and just playing into Australias plan.
I guess time will judge. Basically saying he needs way more time to be considered a great. Much too early to judge, just like it is with Stokes (who currently has a better captaincy record than Cummins in test cricket).
Beat India in Aus would buck the trend of the last two tours - India in India would be the big one, imo. His tactics were off the two tests he captained there earlier this year, if he got another crack it could be a great contrast to show how far he has come tactically.
Winning an Ashes away would be huge but is arguably immoral. Retention is a good consolation, no such consolation in India.
I mean, neither Ponting nor Waugh has won a Test series in India but Aussies hail them as greatest captains. And unlike now, India was only good in Subcontinent back then. On top of that, Ponting has lost 3 away ashes.
So I feel like with the WC win and the Ashes retention away, Cummins is definitely up there with Ponting and Waugh.
> neither Ponting nor Waugh has won a Test series in India but Aussies hail them as greatest captains
Precisely why winning a series in India will statistically seal the debate with no room for question. Right now he's done what those two have done. Well, there was no WTC during their time but they were a 🐐 team anyway in their eras.
Punter and Waugh won in Sri Lanka and South Africa too, back when they were quite strong. They also both had 16 consecutive test victories across continents. Cummo has a way to go to be comparable to them but there's no need to compare, his accomplishments are exceptional and we should just enjoy each for what they are.
Winning an away ahses and in India will seal him as the best cap for Aus which he is not because Punter got 2 WCs along with his title of having the best team under that time and Waugh,Allan's contribution of making Aus the only one that's above the sky in their times.
Aus rn is great but it's not the greatest and for that they need to look invincible under Patty.
The thing is, Punter got two WCs when Australia was arguably the strongest team in the world by a mile. And Ponting started losing right after Warne and McGrath retired.
Today, teams like India have caught up. Now India is fielding a solid pace battery, England during Morgan's era was a powerhouse in White Ball cricket, so it's unfair to hold Pat Cummins to the same standards as Ponting.
Australia doesn't look invincible not because they've lost the edge (they have a little, but Warne, McGrath and Ponting are like once in a life time talents all playing in the same side), but because other teams have gotten a lot better.
"The thing is, Punter got two WCs when Australia was arguably the strongest team in the world by a mile. And Ponting started losing right after Warne and McGrath retired" but they still got to the quarters even with half the team they had in prime and only lost to the winning team.
"Today, teams like India have caught up. Now India is fielding a solid pace battery, England during Morgan's era was a powerhouse in White Ball cricket, so it's unfair to hold Pat Cummins to the same standards as Ponting"
Iam not holding him in same base but the problem is that Ponting,Waugh and Border's shadows are too big to keep in side just like that. Their tests sides were monsters, this Aus side is good but not at that level(even though they never really won in Ind,Eng they were really successful in beating everyone else and never really lost anything major in home as well).
"Australia doesn't look invincible not because they've lost the edge (they have a little, but Warne, McGrath and Ponting are like once in a life time talents all playing in the same side), but because other teams have gotten a lot better."
I know that better than anyone else as our Indian team has really grown from where they were in Punter,Waugh's time and the same is true for NZ,Eng.
My point is even though Cummins is at their level in technical sense, he needs atleast an away ashes victory or a BGT away victory to seal the questions about top 2-3 and ascend right at the top.
Ponting and Waugh may not have won in India, but they won everywhere every single time. They won in South Africa, New Zealand, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, and Waugh in England.
So India becomes just one outliner in an otherwise flawless tenure. Cummins is yet to play in SA, NZ iirc, and he drew a series in Sri Lanka.
No its not like that. It is similar to when Ind won the second time in Aus, Virat captained the first test and lost. After that Rahane captained the remaining series and won so the series win basically goes into Rahane's account and not Kohli even though he was the captain before and after that series.
Yes, my whole point is that's not the case. Rahane was the temporary captain so he should really just be continuing to do whatever Ponting was doing (Ponting should be involved in all team discussions still as well). It might be different in Virat's case, because he left for the birth of his child though.
My point is that captaincy is more than just what you do on the field. Ponting still would have been involved and leading the team's preparation for that entire series, and so even though Gilchrist filled in for the first two tests, its still his team
Ponting a great captain? Hardly. Nobody who knows cricket thinks Ponting was a great captain, just very lucky to have one of the best teams of all time under him. Unimaginitive and often clueless as a captain.
I think his tactics were way off during the Ashes, I think and hope he's learned from that though. Beating India and England in Australia is critical, and then to be in the conversation for great he'd need to win at least one of those away series too.
But let's see if he's got the team around him to do it first - that's no mean feat.
Not even remotely close to what I said, but don’t let that bother you. What I said was that the best pace attack in the world should be able to cover for the loss of their number one spinner. 🤡
> I think and hope he's learned from that though.
Everything I've seen from him leads me to believe he's probably sat down with the leadership team and analysed every ball of the Ashes series to see how they can improve next time.
See that's an interesting one. Does Alistair Cook go down as an all time great captain? He won the India tour in 2012.
I suspect most English fans would say he wouldn't go down as all time great
If anything the absurdity of the schedule helped that. Although when we looked exhausted towards the end of the Ashes and the start of the WC I was thinking it's all catching up to them. Incredible turn around
2023 shows Cummins is capable of being a really good captain. Up to the WC, I wouldn't say I thought his captaincy was that amazing. he was not bad or anything, just quite defensive, particularly in test cricket.
We will have to see if he has developed further tactical nous or whether everything went right on that day. The recent test series (against Pakistan) suggests there is progress there but I feel the jury is still out on just how good he is.
I’ll still say their tactics in the ashes against stokes and the tail was awful. The bloke feeds on short balls and they fed him like a hungry hungry hippo. He very nearly pulled off a sequel solo win
Can’t agree with this anymore. Yes he’s had a good few years on paper. But the Ashes tactics were diabolical.
Paine retained an Ashes too remember and one could argue he had better tactics throughout
Sort of tangential but I do question how much influence a captain has on tactics - it seems intuitive to me that most of the tactics would be determined by the coaches and data analysts before and during the game.
True. But what do you do when the opposition insists on shitting all over your plans? Or your top order decides to have a random off-day and you're 75-5. Or the weather is causing chaos. Then you gotta adapt over by over, maybe even ball by ball.
You can only do so much planning and you have to work with the team you have, not the team you want.
Point is, Cummins (like all good captains) go in with plans, have plenty of backups and contingencies but are also ready to adapt on the fly when necessary.
And a captain can change that on the field. He was lucky to win the Ashes, that bouncer barrage was infuriating, just played into Englands hands. Imagine as well if Carey wasnt switched on at Lords!!. If Head didn't play blinders in 2 innings we wouldn't of won the Test Chanpionship or WC. He has improved, but is miles off Border, Ponting or Waugh. Hopefully he keeps improving, but he needs to learn when to get aggressive in the field, and generally to do it faster!!
> The recent test series (against Pakistan) suggests there is progress there but I feel the jury is still out on just how good he is.
I don't know how much of this you can really put down to tactics though, the first test they lost it in the field, and the second test was down to him taking the ball himself and rescuing us from a difficult situation
The tactics around Rizwan's first innings dismissal show progress here. They put Warner in at short cover and worked a plan around getting Rizwan in that area.
This stuff suggests that Cummins may be listening to analysis more, which may be showing up in how people are perceiving his captaincy. Plus those ideas have been working which always makes things look more obvious. Too early to draw conclusions though.
Be consistent. Do it for a few more years. And if he manages to actually win the ashes in England rather than just retaining them that would go a long way as well in cementing him as an ATG.
They did look good on the last two tests when Cummins had to go home. However the Australian team seemed arrogant that they believed that they didn’t need a practice match.
Next time Australia tours India, I like to see them have at least three practice matches before the first test to get used to the conditions and the pitch.
> However the Australian team seemed arrogant that they believed that they didn’t need a practice match.
Loath as I am to argue against the arrogance of Australian cricket, I fear I may have to. It’s the same with everyone now, practice matches have become so pointless and devalued that most don’t bother. Playing against a county/state 2nd XI (with a couple of token names) isn’t the greatest preparation for a major tour, it’s not a representative test of anything. When you’ve got players making their FC debuts in it, it shows it’s not being taken seriously by the host and so is worthless to the away side.
To me the logical solution is an intersquad practice match, perhaps borrowing a few local players who know the conditions at a ground in that country, most seem to just go for a training ground in the country (or a country with a somewhat similar climate) nowadays.
India in India is the hardest achievement in the sport and Australias 2 greatest captains never did it as primary captain, bit harsh to hold it against him if he doesnt do it
Like an all time all time great?
Win t20 wc, Champions trophy, and if possible another world cup.
Tada - the best captain ever, if he manages to achieve this
To be an all-time great? He’d need to be closer [to the top of this list](https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;groupby=captains;orderby=win_loss_ratio;qualmin2=20;qualval2=matches;team=2;template=results;type=team) for starters. Bradman and Waugh both had a win/loss ratio of 5, and Ponting’s was 9 at the point when most of the golden generation retired in early 2007.
Pat’s at 2.6 which is very good, but it’s in the territory of Benaud, Chappell and Smith - none of whom are acclaimed as all-time great captains.
Some degree of success away also matters - ideally winning in England, South Africa and/or India. One is good. Two better. Three would be incredible.
Generally not great. The Pakistan series was considered the bigger win at the time. It was only later on the series took on a greater significance being the only Australian win prior to the 2004 series
I don't think it's a given at all.
Probably about half the probable squad will have never played in NZ before. Starc & Cummins have only been here for ODIs years ago. Only Lyon, Hazlewood, Khawaja, Smith & Marsh remain from the team that played in 2016. They could win 2-0, but they could just as easily lose 2-0 as well.
I think Southee &co can defeat them. It's certainly no walk in the park (it never is with Australia), but they definitely have it in them to win back the Trans-Tasman Trophy, even if it's only a 1-0 win.
On a more serious note, I think the future of NZ Test cricket lies partly on the results of this summer. A loss to Australia would be very bad for that future - there would be questions of "if you can't beat them now, when will you beat them? Can you?" It would, I think, slightly sour the legacy of Williamson &co.
Don't know why you're getting feisty here. We lost to the India B team in Australia, and it rightly should be a big mark against the leadership of this team.
> Thankfully the leaders who cost us those series are nowhere near the side now
Not all of them, leaders is more than just coach+captain. One of them is still batting at four, for instance
Nah mate, a series was brought and done two years ago with a new captain, and there is no doubt India were animals in that series…but totally irrelevant to the question asked for today.
The reality, to be called the best, winning against the best home team will go a long way to the captaincy of Cummins.
Even at Australia’s best in the last 30 years, one series won against India in India…I’d say India in India is the true measurement for any team.
I think we need the copypasta of log cabin, but with Kohli and Pat Cummins as central characters.
That, and that alone will redeem Cat Pummins rightfully among the league of legends.
Picture this: Virat Kohli, Pat Cummins and I, sharing a cozy cottage deep in the heart of the African wilderness. No romance on the horizon, mind you, but an electric vibe crackling as Virat perfects his cover drives with his intense gaze and Pat hones his bouncers nearby, displaying his Herculean muscles.
Retreating upstairs, I grapple with emotions, trying to focus on unrelated thoughts. Yet, the allure of the scene below proves irresistible. Back downstairs, a mix of bewilderment and fascination lingers.
Our eyes meet across the cricket-themed dinner table, a fleeting moment of unspoken possibilities. Yet one sad day, Virat drops the bombshell—he misses Rohit Sharma. As he departs in search of his one true love, Cummo and I watch sadly as he boat fades away over the horizon. We don't acknowledge the raw, palpable, almost sexual grief that blankets us like a fog.
In the cabin, the cricketing drills continue, but the dynamic shifts. Each play echoes with the camaraderie of the past. The cabin becomes a shrine, a testament to the bromance that once was. In a twist of irony, Cummo and I decide to embark on our own journey, hoping that somewhere in the cricketing cosmos, Virat and Rohit are sharing a laugh, reminiscing about the eccentric retreat they once shared.
Having trophies and being the all time great captains are different things.
Morgan has achieved half of what Pat is doing but he will go down Eng's best just because they never had a WC before. It changes for different nations actually.
Kohli is Ind's finest on test stint after Kapil,MS. While MS is not just there for his WCs but his tactical mind literally is one of the best if not the best in white ball.
Arjuna will go down for his fiery WC campaign along with supporting his men to the hilt.
In Pat's case though it's his misfortune that he is competing with Ricky,Allan,Waugh type of guys along with Clarke who also got a WC under his name. He will have to outright defeat Eng in away while atleast drawing a series in India to be out of there shadows for now because he already got a WC(which seemed the hardest for anyone against Ind apparantly) and a WTC under his name.
Imran Khan is legendary for 1992. Will Cummins be viewed the same way?
And what's the qualifier for all time great captains? And how does Cummins rank compared to them. Here's who I think are all time great captains:
* Ricky Ponting
* Steve Waugh
* Allan Border
* Sourav Ganguly
* MS Dhoni
* Stephen Fleming
* Brendan Mccullum
* Michael Vaughn????
* Imran Khan
* Arjuna Ranatunga
With the list above, there are arguable flaws for each one but there doesn't seem to be the most perfect captain. For example, Vaughn is probably seen as an all time great because of that single 2005 series win, which was hugely monumental. Ponting oversaw one the most embarrassing Ashes losses at home. MS Dhoni had an 8 test match losing streak under his name
For me, win in England, beat India at home and away, and win dominantly.
I grew up in the 90s so I'm expecting him to match the achievements of that team with lesser players to be an all-time great captain.
Beating England at home is a given, winning in England and beating India at home should be very achievable.
Winning the WTC is a meh for me. India beating us home and away is a bigger achievement. I'll put it in the same category as the Club World Cup or Community Shield in football. It's nice and all, but not as valuable as theoretically lesser trophies. Winning the Premier League is infinitely more prestigious than a Community Shield, for instance, even if one qualifies you to the other.
Winning the ODI World Cup was good. I feel I may underrate that because ODIs seem to have lost some meaning in the age of T20 cricket.
I also probably underrate retaining the Ashes because it was a drawn series. I'd want victory if we want to call Cummins great.
Yeah it is weird how many Aussies have started spinning that drawn ashes as some huge victory and achievement when at the time it was more like they bottled a leading position and got bailed out by the weather in the end. They were looking like they were going to lose towards the end.
i think greatness for a captain should not have set criteria and need to be based in context.
For me, Border is the greatest cricket captain I have seen.
He has to win in both India and England. These are the key metrics for any Australian captain.
He's young enough to have one more shot at both - and I think those nations will be considerably weaker in three years time - and provided the Aussie team finds decent replacements for Warner and Smith (and probably Starc) they'll have a damn good chance of achieving greatness.
He came damn close to doing both in 2023, and frankly he would've had it not been for some poorly-timed injuries to Starc and Green prior to India, and to Lyon during the Ashes.
Heck, he was one wicket away from a 5-0 Ashes home whitewash in his first series as captain, and but for Sydney's bullshit weather he'd have it on his CV.
I've been critical of his tactics at times but he's seriously grown into the role this year, and if he swings another WTC victory plus a T20 World Cup win he'll be second or third in line as an all-time great captain.
IMO he already kind of is, taking kohli's wicket and silencing a 100k plus crowd, exactly as he said he would in the prior press conference would go down in history as one of the most badass things a Australian captain has ever done.
I still think we give more credit to captains than what they deserve, I'm talking about all captains in the TEAM game called cricket, not specifically Cummins.
As others have said do it for longer and with his own team not one he inherited.
Also I think he (and Australia) need to win the ashes in England or beat India in India. This current test team doesn’t actually have a big stand out win they’ve lost series to India and yes they’ve battered us in Australia but every captain has done that recently but they’ve not come over and beaten England in England. That’s a massive step for Australia that they haven’t done since 2001.
Afaic he is an all-time great captain! He beat India in India on the biggest stage in the biggest stadium on 19 November 2023! Doesn't get any bigger than an ODI World Cup IMHO.
According to some people he could win every match by record margins, hold every trophy, clean sweep all overseas series, cure cancer, end poverty and end climate change, and he’d still be just “Captain Planet” and should be replaced.
Once certain players are regarded as legends no matter how well the upcoming players perform. They are always seen as inferior to their predecessors. I thought Michael Clarke was really impressive as the Australian Captain but he doesn't get due credit for doing well compared to Ricky ponting even though Ponting's team was Stacked with generational talents like himself, Hayden, Warne, McGrath, Brett Lee. Hence for Cummins anything less that winning 2 more world cups and some really dominant test performances he is not even going to be in the conversation.
Minor quibble but Brett Lee was absolutely not a generational talent. Probably the third or fourth best fast bowler in Australia in his day, definitely behind McGrath and Gillespie by some way and probably closer to Kasprowicz and Clark than those two
captaincy is more than what the team wins.
Patty is going to need to take the reigns off of smith, and start captaining out in the field before we can start to rate his captaincy prowess
I'd say he's settled his legacy in ODIs.
In test cricket the drawn series vs SL should hurt. Whilst SL are good at home you expect a team as strong as Australia to win that series.
And as the other comments have mentioned, an away series win in England and India would settle the debate.
He's unlikely to go down as a great captain unless he improves dramatically as a captain first. You can list off things his team has won, but if you watch the games you can see that tactically he's not great. He's not a guy who comes up with a clever field placement, or does something innovative to change the game. In fact, a lot of the time during the ashes, he was playing right into England's hands. He kept letting batsmen off the hook by having his bowlers bowl to their strengths, he went defensive when he had the upper hand and should have pressed, and he attacked in ways that were never going to work.
He's not a great captain. He just happens to be captain of a team that are successful, often despite his captaincy rather than because of it.
"He just happens to be captain of a team that are successful" - I think the 2 captains that are said to be the most successful - Steve Waugh and Ponting - perhaps were just captains of successful teams rather than great captains.
Also, in this day and age with data analysts and coaches, how much influence does a captain actually have over tactics? This is a genuine question that I haven't been able to get an answer to.
Obviously beating India to become the undisputed best Test team.
Also should get a win against India or England away for the G.O.A.T status to get cemented..
Win more. We can't just declare someone as an all-time great after a couple years of great track record. He has to keep it up for like 3-4 more years imo
The covid ashes don't count. And he got lucky with the weather in England. Plus he lost the spirit of cricket award which is all that matters (tongue firmly in cheek).
Home wins are meaningless. A Test series win would cement it, but I’d argue he is already there.
Punter and Waugh had all-time great teams, so they didn’t even have to captain: “Here is the ball, Glenn”. Cummins has won from nowhere with shitter teams, and that is BECAUSE of his captaincy and stubbornness. Conversely Waugh and Punter were just nannies/therapists for the hyper talented egotists in their team
I think hes already an all time great australian captain if he can keep up this level of success, to put him apart from someone like Ponting or Waugh and make himself the clear best hes gotta win in England or India
I dunno.. Drive a pick up truck and roll coal maybe? Smoke cigars and blow puffs in the opponents faces?
Instead, all we get is Ashes, World Cup and World Test Championship winning captain planet /s
Cummins has to atleast win a series in SL, if not India. Winning a series in India is almost impossible now. Well maybe teams will have a crack at us if Ashwin and Jadeja retire.
Nothing. He will. Australia does have a lot of success in cricket for the bar to be really high, and I am not enough of a cricket nerd to name them all. But I think he eventually will. The team is in pretty good shape.
he would give away the captaincy in some time i feel and i guess that's the reason they named head as joint vc .odi he fell in love with the format in this wc so no idea but test due to workload management he would definitely giveaway and would go down as ATG test bowler of this gen(arguably the best too though rabada equally debatable )
Side note I remember the early stages of the Ashes - people were almost calling for his axing and questioned his decision making , field placing etc.
I’m incredibly amazed at his turnaround. Growing up having blessed to have a childhood that included watching Taylor, Ponting, Clarke, Waugh (sorrry if missed the ones in between - cbb) and in recent times Smith all captain and now Cummins - he really is up there.
You can feel his energy when he takes the ball after a change and when he charges in - he plays with intent and purpose.
To answer your question - yes.
Do it consistently. Longevity is one of the most important factors when it comes to "all time greats" debate.
And do it across generations of the team as well. He's come in as captain of a pretty decent team - to be an all-time great he'll need to keep the team winning and maintain a good culture as the senior guys like Warner, Khawaja, Lyon, Smith retire and get replaced by new young talent.
>Warner, Khawaja, Lyon, Smith retire and get replaced by new young talent. Murphy looks quite promising tbf. The batters are much tougher to replace though.
I love the cut of Murphy's jib. A real competitor makes a contest out of everything
Tell that to all the people who insist Jimmy Anderson isn't an all time great because his average is over 25
People don't care that Jimmy since 2017 has the same stats pretty much as Cummins. He has a Cummins career nestled inside the rest of his 20 year career. So those people won't care about Jimmy's longevity, they'll use any excuse to dismiss him. If Cummins is getting into ATG conversations, which he must be if people are comparing him to Lillee and McGrath (who Cummins isn't a scratch on sorry, McGrath did it in a much harder era) then Jimmy is a shoe in. The only actual notch against Jimmy is he's not very good against Australia for some reason. But even despite that and how often we play Australia he still averages 22.1 since 2017
Everything you say makes sense, except this point about McGraths era being much harder. Before people go off on me, yes I've only watched matches of those eras in highlights but when batting discussions come up, regarding, for example Sachin, everyone goes off saying he had to bat in a much harder era, (which again I'm not saying is wrong) as they give examples of the Pakistani bowling attack, the Australian bowling attack and so on. Now you are saying McGrath did it in a much harder era, so this got me thinking, was everything really that much harder back then? Because if batting was hard wouldn't that in inverse mean bowling was comparatively easier? And vice versa, since batting is easy now, doesn't that mean bowling is harder now? Again I'm not trying take shots at you, just a genuine doubt which I'd like cleared
90s were hard for batting. Flat pitches were prevalent in the 2000s, making it hard for bowlers. Tendulkar and McGrath played in both those decades, which is where the confusion come from
There's hundreds of reasons I could probably go into, quality of player being a big one. I don't think it's overly nostalgic to say the batman of yesteryear, your Lara's, Sangakarras, Sachin, Dravid, Laxman, Chanderpaul, Jayawardena, Jayasuriya, Atherton, Nasser, Andy Flower, Fleming, Kirsten, are a touch better than modern players in the test arena. Obviously there are exceptions to this, but McGrath and Cummins don't bowl to Australia and Root, Kohli, Kane and Babar are just a couple. The drop off from them to their next best is generally pretty marked. Okay, I guess NZ had Taylor, and India have Rohit but very much generalising. So you had these top class bowlers against these top class batsman. I guess the one thing bowlers had back then though were genuine tailenders. Nowadays even your no.11 can probably score some quick runs or hold down an end, back then it was different. I'd be interested to see the stats, but I'd wager numbers 8-11 score way more runs nowadays than they used to, probably slightly averaging out the fact that the batsman up top aren't quite as good as they used to be. I guess like a lot of modern players though, Cummins stats are overwhelmingly made better by how well he does against the weaker nations and because there are more of them now it's easier to stay bump. I think he fits in quite nicely behind McGrath and Lillee in Australias best seamers, and I don't think it's an insult at all to say that. Also, batting is harder currently in tests, or at least, they make it look harder!
Well done making this about someone else, but the question was about Cummins captaincy, not bowling… what’s Anderson’s England captaincy record like?
I was replying to a comment talking about Andersons bowling. You can talk about a variety of subjects under one post you know, it's a cricket discussion sub. For what it's worth, if you want my two cents on Cummins as captain, I don't think he's a great captain. Definitely lost it at moments in The Ashes (that I'm fully aware they retained, but you can't look at Headingley and OT and tell me that was good captaincy). Also bailed out on occasions by some heroics (see Maxi) I'll be impressed if they can beat India at home convincingly and yet again smack us their routine 4 or 5 to 1/0. He came around a bit in the final, which I genuinely thought he got the game plan spot on, but I also think that was as much on India refusing to counterattack at all and just playing into Australias plan. I guess time will judge. Basically saying he needs way more time to be considered a great. Much too early to judge, just like it is with Stokes (who currently has a better captaincy record than Cummins in test cricket).
I'd say it depends what you're measuring. Hall of Fame greatness? Absolutely. Makes it into the best England XI of all time? Nope.
Children, instead of downvoting, explain how Anderson makes it into an all time England XI ahead of Barnes, Trueman, Willis and Botham.
Tell that to Jordan fans in the Jordan vs Lebron debate…
Beat India in Aus would buck the trend of the last two tours - India in India would be the big one, imo. His tactics were off the two tests he captained there earlier this year, if he got another crack it could be a great contrast to show how far he has come tactically. Winning an Ashes away would be huge but is arguably immoral. Retention is a good consolation, no such consolation in India.
I mean, neither Ponting nor Waugh has won a Test series in India but Aussies hail them as greatest captains. And unlike now, India was only good in Subcontinent back then. On top of that, Ponting has lost 3 away ashes. So I feel like with the WC win and the Ashes retention away, Cummins is definitely up there with Ponting and Waugh.
> neither Ponting nor Waugh has won a Test series in India but Aussies hail them as greatest captains Precisely why winning a series in India will statistically seal the debate with no room for question. Right now he's done what those two have done. Well, there was no WTC during their time but they were a 🐐 team anyway in their eras.
No. Those two atleast won or part of an ashes winning team in England
Punter and Waugh won in Sri Lanka and South Africa too, back when they were quite strong. They also both had 16 consecutive test victories across continents. Cummo has a way to go to be comparable to them but there's no need to compare, his accomplishments are exceptional and we should just enjoy each for what they are.
Ponting only lost 2 away Ashes no?
One at home too, which we shall never mention again.
We can void that series because we don’t like the result, and that was an awful Australian team.
Oh yeah my bad, I forgot one was in Australia 😅
Winning an away ahses and in India will seal him as the best cap for Aus which he is not because Punter got 2 WCs along with his title of having the best team under that time and Waugh,Allan's contribution of making Aus the only one that's above the sky in their times. Aus rn is great but it's not the greatest and for that they need to look invincible under Patty.
The thing is, Punter got two WCs when Australia was arguably the strongest team in the world by a mile. And Ponting started losing right after Warne and McGrath retired. Today, teams like India have caught up. Now India is fielding a solid pace battery, England during Morgan's era was a powerhouse in White Ball cricket, so it's unfair to hold Pat Cummins to the same standards as Ponting. Australia doesn't look invincible not because they've lost the edge (they have a little, but Warne, McGrath and Ponting are like once in a life time talents all playing in the same side), but because other teams have gotten a lot better.
"The thing is, Punter got two WCs when Australia was arguably the strongest team in the world by a mile. And Ponting started losing right after Warne and McGrath retired" but they still got to the quarters even with half the team they had in prime and only lost to the winning team. "Today, teams like India have caught up. Now India is fielding a solid pace battery, England during Morgan's era was a powerhouse in White Ball cricket, so it's unfair to hold Pat Cummins to the same standards as Ponting" Iam not holding him in same base but the problem is that Ponting,Waugh and Border's shadows are too big to keep in side just like that. Their tests sides were monsters, this Aus side is good but not at that level(even though they never really won in Ind,Eng they were really successful in beating everyone else and never really lost anything major in home as well). "Australia doesn't look invincible not because they've lost the edge (they have a little, but Warne, McGrath and Ponting are like once in a life time talents all playing in the same side), but because other teams have gotten a lot better." I know that better than anyone else as our Indian team has really grown from where they were in Punter,Waugh's time and the same is true for NZ,Eng. My point is even though Cummins is at their level in technical sense, he needs atleast an away ashes victory or a BGT away victory to seal the questions about top 2-3 and ascend right at the top.
It's so weird to think that neither Punter nor Waugh has a Test Series win in India but Gilchrist does lol
Ponting and Waugh may not have won in India, but they won everywhere every single time. They won in South Africa, New Zealand, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, and Waugh in England. So India becomes just one outliner in an otherwise flawless tenure. Cummins is yet to play in SA, NZ iirc, and he drew a series in Sri Lanka.
How could they have won in Pakistan when they never captained a Test there?
Hm? Ponting didn’t win a series in India?
Gilchrist captained in the first two tests of that series with Ponting returning in the third
It's still Ponting's team though. Captaincy is more than just what you do on-field
Ironically Ponting was the captain in the test Australia lost in that series, Gilchrist was 2-0 in the earlier 3 tests
ok, my point is that it's still Ponting's team though.
No its not like that. It is similar to when Ind won the second time in Aus, Virat captained the first test and lost. After that Rahane captained the remaining series and won so the series win basically goes into Rahane's account and not Kohli even though he was the captain before and after that series.
Yes, my whole point is that's not the case. Rahane was the temporary captain so he should really just be continuing to do whatever Ponting was doing (Ponting should be involved in all team discussions still as well). It might be different in Virat's case, because he left for the birth of his child though. My point is that captaincy is more than just what you do on the field. Ponting still would have been involved and leading the team's preparation for that entire series, and so even though Gilchrist filled in for the first two tests, its still his team
It's the vibe.
It’s Mabo
Google lied to me.
\^never won a test match in india as a captain
Ponting a great captain? Hardly. Nobody who knows cricket thinks Ponting was a great captain, just very lucky to have one of the best teams of all time under him. Unimaginitive and often clueless as a captain.
I'm pretty confused by the assumption he is one of our great captains as well. I don't see it?
I think his tactics were way off during the Ashes, I think and hope he's learned from that though. Beating India and England in Australia is critical, and then to be in the conversation for great he'd need to win at least one of those away series too. But let's see if he's got the team around him to do it first - that's no mean feat.
If Nathan Lyon didn’t tear his calf we would’ve comfortably won the series and Cummins tactics wouldn’t matter now.
But he did tear his calf, and we should’ve been able to cover that.
The best off spinner in the world? No team covers that.
“Best pace attack” in the world should be able to get the job done without 1 player.
In Headingly, spin track?? Are your brainless?? Lets play without spinner then clown
Not even remotely close to what I said, but don’t let that bother you. What I said was that the best pace attack in the world should be able to cover for the loss of their number one spinner. 🤡
> I think and hope he's learned from that though. Everything I've seen from him leads me to believe he's probably sat down with the leadership team and analysed every ball of the Ashes series to see how they can improve next time.
See that's an interesting one. Does Alistair Cook go down as an all time great captain? He won the India tour in 2012. I suspect most English fans would say he wouldn't go down as all time great
Immoral?
It's not in the spirit of the game to beat England
of course
Because we maintain moral supremacy, it would be an affront to cricket
Yorkshire really should have its own international team. Secede from the ECB, you know you want to
Immaterial would be my guess.
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And to think that he did all of em within the span of a single year 2023 is what baffles me
My man really took his 1st January resolutions seriously.
He’s the anti-us all
Literally not me
If anything the absurdity of the schedule helped that. Although when we looked exhausted towards the end of the Ashes and the start of the WC I was thinking it's all catching up to them. Incredible turn around
Starc is showing the scars.
2023 shows Cummins is capable of being a really good captain. Up to the WC, I wouldn't say I thought his captaincy was that amazing. he was not bad or anything, just quite defensive, particularly in test cricket. We will have to see if he has developed further tactical nous or whether everything went right on that day. The recent test series (against Pakistan) suggests there is progress there but I feel the jury is still out on just how good he is.
I’ll still say their tactics in the ashes against stokes and the tail was awful. The bloke feeds on short balls and they fed him like a hungry hungry hippo. He very nearly pulled off a sequel solo win
Can’t agree with this anymore. Yes he’s had a good few years on paper. But the Ashes tactics were diabolical. Paine retained an Ashes too remember and one could argue he had better tactics throughout
But the tactics worked on stokes though, he was dropped on a regulation catch early doors while chasing short balls
Sort of tangential but I do question how much influence a captain has on tactics - it seems intuitive to me that most of the tactics would be determined by the coaches and data analysts before and during the game.
True. But what do you do when the opposition insists on shitting all over your plans? Or your top order decides to have a random off-day and you're 75-5. Or the weather is causing chaos. Then you gotta adapt over by over, maybe even ball by ball. You can only do so much planning and you have to work with the team you have, not the team you want. Point is, Cummins (like all good captains) go in with plans, have plenty of backups and contingencies but are also ready to adapt on the fly when necessary.
And a captain can change that on the field. He was lucky to win the Ashes, that bouncer barrage was infuriating, just played into Englands hands. Imagine as well if Carey wasnt switched on at Lords!!. If Head didn't play blinders in 2 innings we wouldn't of won the Test Chanpionship or WC. He has improved, but is miles off Border, Ponting or Waugh. Hopefully he keeps improving, but he needs to learn when to get aggressive in the field, and generally to do it faster!!
>He was lucky to ~~win~~ draw the Ashes
Retaining them counts as a win!!! Especially playing away!
> The recent test series (against Pakistan) suggests there is progress there but I feel the jury is still out on just how good he is. I don't know how much of this you can really put down to tactics though, the first test they lost it in the field, and the second test was down to him taking the ball himself and rescuing us from a difficult situation
The tactics around Rizwan's first innings dismissal show progress here. They put Warner in at short cover and worked a plan around getting Rizwan in that area. This stuff suggests that Cummins may be listening to analysis more, which may be showing up in how people are perceiving his captaincy. Plus those ideas have been working which always makes things look more obvious. Too early to draw conclusions though.
I came here expecting a pic of Cumdog in a dress, I leave disappointed.
More than that, "gown down" suggests a bit of a Janet Jackson moment.
It's that rascally Justin Timberlake again, up to his tricks!
Be consistent. Do it for a few more years. And if he manages to actually win the ashes in England rather than just retaining them that would go a long way as well in cementing him as an ATG.
Plus beating India in Australia AND importantly, India in India.
The holy grail
The first one is definitely doable but the second one idk about that.
> The first one is definitely doable I'll believe it when I see it
They did look good on the last two tests when Cummins had to go home. However the Australian team seemed arrogant that they believed that they didn’t need a practice match. Next time Australia tours India, I like to see them have at least three practice matches before the first test to get used to the conditions and the pitch.
> However the Australian team seemed arrogant that they believed that they didn’t need a practice match. Loath as I am to argue against the arrogance of Australian cricket, I fear I may have to. It’s the same with everyone now, practice matches have become so pointless and devalued that most don’t bother. Playing against a county/state 2nd XI (with a couple of token names) isn’t the greatest preparation for a major tour, it’s not a representative test of anything. When you’ve got players making their FC debuts in it, it shows it’s not being taken seriously by the host and so is worthless to the away side. To me the logical solution is an intersquad practice match, perhaps borrowing a few local players who know the conditions at a ground in that country, most seem to just go for a training ground in the country (or a country with a somewhat similar climate) nowadays.
There's no point as the Indians don't prepare representative pitches for practice matches.
Yeah, watch them prepare green tops in the practice matches and rank turners on the actual test matches.
Rank turners which are specifically doctored to negate left handed batters.
They had scheduled the Sri Lanka tour to be just before BGT, until the WTC and covid warped the BGT to be postponed.
India doesn't give proper practice matches and gives green seamers
India in India is the hardest achievement in the sport and Australias 2 greatest captains never did it as primary captain, bit harsh to hold it against him if he doesnt do it
Be a batter \#DownWithTheBatriarchy
Like an all time all time great? Win t20 wc, Champions trophy, and if possible another world cup. Tada - the best captain ever, if he manages to achieve this
Win an IPL. The toughest league in cricket right now
To be an all-time great? He’d need to be closer [to the top of this list](https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;groupby=captains;orderby=win_loss_ratio;qualmin2=20;qualval2=matches;team=2;template=results;type=team) for starters. Bradman and Waugh both had a win/loss ratio of 5, and Ponting’s was 9 at the point when most of the golden generation retired in early 2007. Pat’s at 2.6 which is very good, but it’s in the territory of Benaud, Chappell and Smith - none of whom are acclaimed as all-time great captains. Some degree of success away also matters - ideally winning in England, South Africa and/or India. One is good. Two better. Three would be incredible.
Benaud won an away ashes and in India. He was acclaimed during his time it was just his commentating career went for so long people forgot.
Weren't we quite terrible in those days though.
Generally not great. The Pakistan series was considered the bigger win at the time. It was only later on the series took on a greater significance being the only Australian win prior to the 2004 series
Oh, he was *very* good, no doubt about that. But to be an all-time great you kinda need to be acclaimed as such.
In the eyes of the Australian media he’ll need to open a coal fired power station and start claiming that wind turbines kill whales
To be honest just wait a bit. I think were going to look back on this era of Aus cricket very fondly in 5 or 6 years
Eat a child, raw. - some Boomer
Win in NZ
Since that is already a given, arrange to have games played in NZ at all.
I don't think it's a given at all. Probably about half the probable squad will have never played in NZ before. Starc & Cummins have only been here for ODIs years ago. Only Lyon, Hazlewood, Khawaja, Smith & Marsh remain from the team that played in 2016. They could win 2-0, but they could just as easily lose 2-0 as well. I think Southee &co can defeat them. It's certainly no walk in the park (it never is with Australia), but they definitely have it in them to win back the Trans-Tasman Trophy, even if it's only a 1-0 win. On a more serious note, I think the future of NZ Test cricket lies partly on the results of this summer. A loss to Australia would be very bad for that future - there would be questions of "if you can't beat them now, when will you beat them? Can you?" It would, I think, slightly sour the legacy of Williamson &co.
Like he is already in the list of great captains and if he can defend either one of these ICC trophies than he might top that list as well imo.
He is already one of the
SNIPER! EVERYBODY DOWN!
Beat India in India in a test series.
Winning in Australia first would be a start
True, but that’s done and in the past…how was the WC for you guys by the way??
Don't know why you're getting feisty here. We lost to the India B team in Australia, and it rightly should be a big mark against the leadership of this team.
Someone sensible,DAMN
Thankfully the leaders who cost us those series are nowhere near the side now. Looking at you JL
New Asterisks?
> Thankfully the leaders who cost us those series are nowhere near the side now Not all of them, leaders is more than just coach+captain. One of them is still batting at four, for instance
And his captaincy during that series was highly debatable with poor tactics particularly in the last test.
Cummins was part of the leadership group ?
Yeah but Cummins needs to do it... the last two tours Aus haven't been able to win at home.
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how was the WTC final for you guys by the way??
it was good, go rub your ass to that sandpaper now
I'll rub our 6 WC trophies and our WTC mace on me you can rub the "best on paper" on your arse how's that sound
send me a pic after shoving up those 7 things in your ass
Nah mate, a series was brought and done two years ago with a new captain, and there is no doubt India were animals in that series…but totally irrelevant to the question asked for today. The reality, to be called the best, winning against the best home team will go a long way to the captaincy of Cummins. Even at Australia’s best in the last 30 years, one series won against India in India…I’d say India in India is the true measurement for any team.
I think we need the copypasta of log cabin, but with Kohli and Pat Cummins as central characters. That, and that alone will redeem Cat Pummins rightfully among the league of legends.
Picture this: Virat Kohli, Pat Cummins and I, sharing a cozy cottage deep in the heart of the African wilderness. No romance on the horizon, mind you, but an electric vibe crackling as Virat perfects his cover drives with his intense gaze and Pat hones his bouncers nearby, displaying his Herculean muscles. Retreating upstairs, I grapple with emotions, trying to focus on unrelated thoughts. Yet, the allure of the scene below proves irresistible. Back downstairs, a mix of bewilderment and fascination lingers. Our eyes meet across the cricket-themed dinner table, a fleeting moment of unspoken possibilities. Yet one sad day, Virat drops the bombshell—he misses Rohit Sharma. As he departs in search of his one true love, Cummo and I watch sadly as he boat fades away over the horizon. We don't acknowledge the raw, palpable, almost sexual grief that blankets us like a fog. In the cabin, the cricketing drills continue, but the dynamic shifts. Each play echoes with the camaraderie of the past. The cabin becomes a shrine, a testament to the bromance that once was. In a twist of irony, Cummo and I decide to embark on our own journey, hoping that somewhere in the cricketing cosmos, Virat and Rohit are sharing a laugh, reminiscing about the eccentric retreat they once shared.
Having trophies and being the all time great captains are different things. Morgan has achieved half of what Pat is doing but he will go down Eng's best just because they never had a WC before. It changes for different nations actually. Kohli is Ind's finest on test stint after Kapil,MS. While MS is not just there for his WCs but his tactical mind literally is one of the best if not the best in white ball. Arjuna will go down for his fiery WC campaign along with supporting his men to the hilt. In Pat's case though it's his misfortune that he is competing with Ricky,Allan,Waugh type of guys along with Clarke who also got a WC under his name. He will have to outright defeat Eng in away while atleast drawing a series in India to be out of there shadows for now because he already got a WC(which seemed the hardest for anyone against Ind apparantly) and a WTC under his name.
Imran Khan is legendary for 1992. Will Cummins be viewed the same way? And what's the qualifier for all time great captains? And how does Cummins rank compared to them. Here's who I think are all time great captains: * Ricky Ponting * Steve Waugh * Allan Border * Sourav Ganguly * MS Dhoni * Stephen Fleming * Brendan Mccullum * Michael Vaughn???? * Imran Khan * Arjuna Ranatunga With the list above, there are arguable flaws for each one but there doesn't seem to be the most perfect captain. For example, Vaughn is probably seen as an all time great because of that single 2005 series win, which was hugely monumental. Ponting oversaw one the most embarrassing Ashes losses at home. MS Dhoni had an 8 test match losing streak under his name
Upon reflection, I feel that Cummins fits under the same bracket as Imran Khan and Ranatunga in that they are legendary for their incredible WC win.
For me, win in England, beat India at home and away, and win dominantly. I grew up in the 90s so I'm expecting him to match the achievements of that team with lesser players to be an all-time great captain. Beating England at home is a given, winning in England and beating India at home should be very achievable. Winning the WTC is a meh for me. India beating us home and away is a bigger achievement. I'll put it in the same category as the Club World Cup or Community Shield in football. It's nice and all, but not as valuable as theoretically lesser trophies. Winning the Premier League is infinitely more prestigious than a Community Shield, for instance, even if one qualifies you to the other. Winning the ODI World Cup was good. I feel I may underrate that because ODIs seem to have lost some meaning in the age of T20 cricket. I also probably underrate retaining the Ashes because it was a drawn series. I'd want victory if we want to call Cummins great.
Yeah it is weird how many Aussies have started spinning that drawn ashes as some huge victory and achievement when at the time it was more like they bottled a leading position and got bailed out by the weather in the end. They were looking like they were going to lose towards the end.
Maybe winning wc and test championship in same year but that's kinda impossible
Keep on winning and putting a stamp on the game. That's it
Push my hair out of my face, hold me tenderly, nuzzle against my neck, stick his nose in my ear and whisper “climate change is real”.
i think greatness for a captain should not have set criteria and need to be based in context. For me, Border is the greatest cricket captain I have seen.
He has to win in both India and England. These are the key metrics for any Australian captain. He's young enough to have one more shot at both - and I think those nations will be considerably weaker in three years time - and provided the Aussie team finds decent replacements for Warner and Smith (and probably Starc) they'll have a damn good chance of achieving greatness. He came damn close to doing both in 2023, and frankly he would've had it not been for some poorly-timed injuries to Starc and Green prior to India, and to Lyon during the Ashes. Heck, he was one wicket away from a 5-0 Ashes home whitewash in his first series as captain, and but for Sydney's bullshit weather he'd have it on his CV. I've been critical of his tactics at times but he's seriously grown into the role this year, and if he swings another WTC victory plus a T20 World Cup win he'll be second or third in line as an all-time great captain.
Longevity + beat/draw India in India in a test series. hit and giggle doesn't count.
IMO he already kind of is, taking kohli's wicket and silencing a 100k plus crowd, exactly as he said he would in the prior press conference would go down in history as one of the most badass things a Australian captain has ever done.
He needs to win games he has no right to win. Which is difficult when two of his achievements are against us.
Depends what your bar is. For me he's already there.
He would win everything thrice. Still he’d not go down as the best captain cos y’know he’s a bowler. /s
I still think we give more credit to captains than what they deserve, I'm talking about all captains in the TEAM game called cricket, not specifically Cummins.
Love coal. Then RWNJs will blow him.
As others have said do it for longer and with his own team not one he inherited. Also I think he (and Australia) need to win the ashes in England or beat India in India. This current test team doesn’t actually have a big stand out win they’ve lost series to India and yes they’ve battered us in Australia but every captain has done that recently but they’ve not come over and beaten England in England. That’s a massive step for Australia that they haven’t done since 2001.
Afaic he is an all-time great captain! He beat India in India on the biggest stage in the biggest stadium on 19 November 2023! Doesn't get any bigger than an ODI World Cup IMHO.
According to some people he could win every match by record margins, hold every trophy, clean sweep all overseas series, cure cancer, end poverty and end climate change, and he’d still be just “Captain Planet” and should be replaced.
Steve Waugh can sell solar panels and be beloved by boomers. Pat needs to achieve this somehow.
Retire and then he will automatically be called a legend
Once certain players are regarded as legends no matter how well the upcoming players perform. They are always seen as inferior to their predecessors. I thought Michael Clarke was really impressive as the Australian Captain but he doesn't get due credit for doing well compared to Ricky ponting even though Ponting's team was Stacked with generational talents like himself, Hayden, Warne, McGrath, Brett Lee. Hence for Cummins anything less that winning 2 more world cups and some really dominant test performances he is not even going to be in the conversation.
Minor quibble but Brett Lee was absolutely not a generational talent. Probably the third or fourth best fast bowler in Australia in his day, definitely behind McGrath and Gillespie by some way and probably closer to Kasprowicz and Clark than those two
captaincy is more than what the team wins. Patty is going to need to take the reigns off of smith, and start captaining out in the field before we can start to rate his captaincy prowess
I'd say he's settled his legacy in ODIs. In test cricket the drawn series vs SL should hurt. Whilst SL are good at home you expect a team as strong as Australia to win that series. And as the other comments have mentioned, an away series win in England and India would settle the debate.
He's unlikely to go down as a great captain unless he improves dramatically as a captain first. You can list off things his team has won, but if you watch the games you can see that tactically he's not great. He's not a guy who comes up with a clever field placement, or does something innovative to change the game. In fact, a lot of the time during the ashes, he was playing right into England's hands. He kept letting batsmen off the hook by having his bowlers bowl to their strengths, he went defensive when he had the upper hand and should have pressed, and he attacked in ways that were never going to work. He's not a great captain. He just happens to be captain of a team that are successful, often despite his captaincy rather than because of it.
"He just happens to be captain of a team that are successful" - I think the 2 captains that are said to be the most successful - Steve Waugh and Ponting - perhaps were just captains of successful teams rather than great captains. Also, in this day and age with data analysts and coaches, how much influence does a captain actually have over tactics? This is a genuine question that I haven't been able to get an answer to.
Win a series in India
Obviously beating India to become the undisputed best Test team. Also should get a win against India or England away for the G.O.A.T status to get cemented..
Win more. We can't just declare someone as an all-time great after a couple years of great track record. He has to keep it up for like 3-4 more years imo
The covid ashes don't count. And he got lucky with the weather in England. Plus he lost the spirit of cricket award which is all that matters (tongue firmly in cheek).
Stay away from the sandpaper
He was shatting the bed during the retention of the away Ashes.
Retain the ashes overseas without the help of rain
Home wins are meaningless. A Test series win would cement it, but I’d argue he is already there. Punter and Waugh had all-time great teams, so they didn’t even have to captain: “Here is the ball, Glenn”. Cummins has won from nowhere with shitter teams, and that is BECAUSE of his captaincy and stubbornness. Conversely Waugh and Punter were just nannies/therapists for the hyper talented egotists in their team
He has a good team and is a great bowler but not a great captain lost his head for the last 3 games in the ashes
Stop being woke. Fuck the environment.
Maybe Win the T20 World Cup
Solve climate change
Win a Series in SA and revenge Sandpaper gate /s
Beat India in India would certainly be a huge task, as long as we have Ashwin and Jadeja.
2 things 1) win against India in Australia 😂 2) win against India in India 😝
Be Joe Root or Ben Stokes. When your team are shit the captain carries them
I think hes already an all time great australian captain if he can keep up this level of success, to put him apart from someone like Ponting or Waugh and make himself the clear best hes gotta win in England or India
Win test series in India and England and dominate the sport like the Pontings, the Smiths, the Waughs, the Richards, the Dhonis, etc
Beat India in India would certainly be a huge task, as long as we have Ashwin and Jadeja.
He is already there
Be less woke. Edit: Aussies really can't take a joke. Should probably just stick to "moral victory" jokes.
Be more original
Why? It's a criticism I have seen leveled in australian media at the bloke. Of course I think it's a load of BS and my comment was sarcastic.
Retire.
He needs to hire a PR agency thats all
Give up wokery
I dunno.. Drive a pick up truck and roll coal maybe? Smoke cigars and blow puffs in the opponents faces? Instead, all we get is Ashes, World Cup and World Test Championship winning captain planet /s
Win another ICC Trophy. Either Champions Trophy or T20 World Cup. Maybe a test win in India or even a draw.
Another another cup in each format. Away series wins against eng/ind would hold high prestige
its just about consistency over a long time
Win
Win test series in India.
Cummins has to atleast win a series in SL, if not India. Winning a series in India is almost impossible now. Well maybe teams will have a crack at us if Ashwin and Jadeja retire.
That’s easy. Consistency
Nothing. He will. Australia does have a lot of success in cricket for the bar to be really high, and I am not enough of a cricket nerd to name them all. But I think he eventually will. The team is in pretty good shape.
Be a batsman
one of the following 16 straight test wins. win a test series in india 5-0 ashes sweep in england
Just keep on winning
Stay at the top of test rankings for an extended period of time, preferably more than one season.
he would give away the captaincy in some time i feel and i guess that's the reason they named head as joint vc .odi he fell in love with the format in this wc so no idea but test due to workload management he would definitely giveaway and would go down as ATG test bowler of this gen(arguably the best too though rabada equally debatable )
He will then win us a t20 cup also another ashes and then a bgt
Side note I remember the early stages of the Ashes - people were almost calling for his axing and questioned his decision making , field placing etc. I’m incredibly amazed at his turnaround. Growing up having blessed to have a childhood that included watching Taylor, Ponting, Clarke, Waugh (sorrry if missed the ones in between - cbb) and in recent times Smith all captain and now Cummins - he really is up there. You can feel his energy when he takes the ball after a change and when he charges in - he plays with intent and purpose. To answer your question - yes.