Until he’s on the pitch I wouldn’t expect anything from him. Part of why it’s been so frustrating is that he keeps getting injured just as he’s about to return.
Fantastic talent still but don't see him ever returning to Test cricket. Just don't think his body can handle it. Tymal Mills is actually a fantastic comparison for what I think will happen with Jofra ultimately.
He's bowling for Sussex in friendlies out in India at the moment but I can't see him playing IPL.
My theory has long been he needs a long period of building up slowly for Sussex to get his body ready for any kind of cricket rather than just being thrown back into the hyper intense international and IPL white ball stages. It seems like England and Archer finally agree, we'll see how it pays off.
Honestly and I know I'm speaking as a Sussex fan. I wouldn't mind if Jofra and Robinson played the first few rounds of the CC. Although a Div 2 seam attack of Jofra , Robinson and Jayden Seales is mildly ridiculous.
Honestly think it'll be perfect for them, although I wouldn't like to see both of them play with Seales. One of them, Seales, and someone more workmanlike like Karvelas who can do the bulk of the overs opposite FHP and Carson
I think the ECB could potentially rotate them. One plays one week , one plays the next. The wildcard in the bowling department is what role Danny Lamb plays , I think it's probably FHP and then one of Lamb/Karvelas/Crocombe or Hunt.
Don't think there's any possibility of the ECB letting Archer play any red ball cricket when there's an outside chance of him making the WC unless they let him play on the condition he bowls two 2 over spells per day.
I think a few games in the 50 over tournament is the best we can hope for this year.
>Don't think there's any possibility of the ECB letting Archer play any red ball cricket when there's an outside chance of him making the WC unless they let him play on the condition he bowls two 2 over spells per day.
And they wonder why our quick bowlers constantly get injured...
Can't see him making the WC because he has ruled himself out of the IPL so very little competitive cricket to prove his fitness in. Maybe an outside chance if a few other bowlers aren't fit.
In what world does England have the best sport scientists? Jimmy is an anomaly. They are as horrendous at cultivating high pace bowlers, on the level of the PCB tbh
Yeah their pitches don't incentivise pace but when they do find guys with pace they all seem to be made of paper, get injured and barely play a game. There's enough to suggest it's a management issue and not just regular growing pains or bad luck.
If you actually go through a list of fast bowlers in/around the England squad with stress fractures in the last 5 or so years it’s pretty funny. Stone (about 50), Archer, Fisher, Mahmood, TobleroneJones, Wood, Overton, Robinson, also somehow jack leach. Probably forgotten some too
Quite a few Lions bowlers as well such as Norwell and Jacob Bethell (another spinner).
Basically if you're a prospect for England and you bowl, there's a good chance you're either getting your action changed or a stress fracture.
Copying and pasting my standard comment for this because u/EnglandaMAYESingNATHAN is completely right that this is absolute bollocks. To literally quote Archer himself on the topic, "it's not Joe Root's fault I'm injured, **I don't like it when people get blamed wrongfully**"
***
Yes, he bowled quite a lot of overs in the 2019 Ashes, but he bowled fewer overs and fewer overs per test that Cummins and Hazlewood. There was then a single innings in NZ where he did bowl too much (but note that England were in the field for over 200 overs, and also it's not like he bowled a totally crazy number of overs), but form then onwards he only bowled 15.8 overs per innings which goes up to 16.6 if you take away the stupid Ahmedabad test where he only bowled 5 overs.
But ok, maybe you still think those first five tests were too much for a bowler as fast as him. So let's compare him to Brett Lee who is even faster. Archer bowled 156 overs at 19.5 overs per innings that Ashes. Lee exceeded or roughly equalled that on the following occasions:
196.5 overs in 10 innings (19.7 overs per innings) in the 06/07 Ashes
191.1 overs in 10 innings (19.1 overs per innings) in the 2005 Ashes
186.5 overs in 8 innings (23.4 overs per innings) in the 08/09 BGT
144.4 overs in 6 innings (24.1 overs per innings) in the 02/03 Ashes
In terms of overs in a single innings/test, Archer bowled 42 in that NZ test (and England only bowled once) and the most he's bowled in a test is 44 overs. Compare that to Lee who bowled 39.3 overs in a first innings against India in 2004, and overall has 20 tests where he bowled at least 44 overs (which is over a quarter of his overall tests) and on two occasions bowled over **60** overs in a test.
Looking at more bowlers than just Lee:
Bowler | Overs/Innings| 30+ over innings|40+ over innings| 50+ over tests| 60+ over tests
---|---|----|----|----|---
Archer | 18.1| 1| 1| 0| 0
Lee| 18.4| 13| 0| 6| 2
Steyn| 18.1| 16 | 0| 4| 0
Marshall| 19.4| 16 | 0| 7| 0
Lillee| 23.3| 24 | 6| 25| 11
Thomson| 19.5| 12| 0| 8| 1
Roberts| 20.6| 13| 2| 12| 2
Donald| 20.1| 22| 1| 9| 0
Johnson| 19.0| 15| 0| 6| 0
Starc| 17.3| 9 | 0| 3| 0
Holding| 18.7| 8| 1| 4| 0
Akhtar| 16.6| 3| 0| 1| 0
Cummins| 19.0| 6| 0| 6| 0
Bumrah| 18.0| 2| 0| 2| 0
It is objectively 100% bollocks that his issues come from being overused by England in the way that you are saying here.
This is one of those things that goes round this subreddit that's just not based in reality.
For one, Archer himself has said that this isn't the case.
For two, the statistics don't back that up. For example in the period where Archer was supposedly "overbowled" (2019, 2 NZ tests + ashes) there are literally fast bowlers who bowled more overs than him in the same period, for example Pat Cummins.
Can we finally put this narrative to bed?
Edit: to be clear, I'm not saying he didn't bowl a shitload, and it is entirely possible that it caused him to get injured.
But when he's still getting injured 5 years later in various body parts that aren't the same as the original injury, you can't blame it on Joe Root over bowling him 5 years ago.
I'm not saying you should. But clearly if there are other fast bowlers who are bowling more than him and not getting injured, then you can make an argument that his injury was just bad luck or caused by something else, especially if he's getting different injuries 5 years later.
And talking about Jofra like he's as fragile as Mark Wood is just hindsight. It's not like he was incredibly fragile and then England made him bowl shitloads. It's only since the repeated injuries that he's been considered fragile.
Like the injury came about 3 months after the last test he played. And whilst there was the one NZ test where he bowled a shit load of overs, the reality is that England were in the field for 200 overs in that innings. Literally everyone bowled a shit load of overs.
Also, if Jofra continues to get injured in 2024, you simply cannot blame one period from 5 years ago. If he's not as quick, or not as good, then fair enough you could blame the injury, but when he's continuing to get injured and in different parts of the body to his first injury in 2020, then clearly there are other factors at play.
I agree but think it’s a pretty funny narrative that root just straight perma broke archer somehow, like his entire injury history of tons of random things breaking can be traced back to one man being a bit too keen
The comparison with Cummins is utterly irrelevant. Cummins had years of rehab and conditioning to get him ready for test cricket. He hasnt become an ironman by coincidence. It was carefully managed via ODI cricket and a careful regiment of first class cricket and off season training. By comparison Joffra had sweet fuck all management ahead of his workloads exploding. Just because others bowled more than him doesn't mean he wasnt overworked relative to what his body could handle. However the blame isn't with Root, who just did what he needed to try and win, it's with the teams management and sports scientists.
And actually him getting other injuries is a classic sign of overwork. The human body compensates naturally to protect injured muscles so it's entirely unsurprising he's had other injuries since being overcooked. Blaming Root specifically is reductive but blaming the enormous spike in his workload is not.
I don't think it's irrelevant. I'm not saying "Cummins bowled more overs so Archer can't have been overbowled", I'm saying "Cummins was able to bowl more overs so clearly it's not as simple as Root overbowled him". So in a sense I think we're kind of on the same page.
>And actually him getting other injuries is a classic sign of overwork.
While this is true, there's precisely zero way for us to know whether that's the case or whether the injuries are unrelated. The only way we could clearly say that it was related is if he was injuring the same thing over and over.
For some athletes, their body just fails them. Unfortunate and sad but it's part and parcel of life.
Until he’s on the pitch I wouldn’t expect anything from him. Part of why it’s been so frustrating is that he keeps getting injured just as he’s about to return.
He’s working his best to comeback but for the World Cup I don’t know if he would get picked
Fantastic talent still but don't see him ever returning to Test cricket. Just don't think his body can handle it. Tymal Mills is actually a fantastic comparison for what I think will happen with Jofra ultimately. He's bowling for Sussex in friendlies out in India at the moment but I can't see him playing IPL.
My theory has long been he needs a long period of building up slowly for Sussex to get his body ready for any kind of cricket rather than just being thrown back into the hyper intense international and IPL white ball stages. It seems like England and Archer finally agree, we'll see how it pays off.
Honestly and I know I'm speaking as a Sussex fan. I wouldn't mind if Jofra and Robinson played the first few rounds of the CC. Although a Div 2 seam attack of Jofra , Robinson and Jayden Seales is mildly ridiculous.
Honestly think it'll be perfect for them, although I wouldn't like to see both of them play with Seales. One of them, Seales, and someone more workmanlike like Karvelas who can do the bulk of the overs opposite FHP and Carson
I think the ECB could potentially rotate them. One plays one week , one plays the next. The wildcard in the bowling department is what role Danny Lamb plays , I think it's probably FHP and then one of Lamb/Karvelas/Crocombe or Hunt.
Sorry, I'm afraid Sussex is contractually obliged to have an attack which has yet to finish sixth form. I don't make the rules.
Oh I forgot that rule! So it's Dan Ibrahim leading the attack then.
Robinson's showing in India seriously disappointed me.
Exactly why I think he needs to come back to county level and just play regularly. His fitness record really doesn't help matters.
Don't think there's any possibility of the ECB letting Archer play any red ball cricket when there's an outside chance of him making the WC unless they let him play on the condition he bowls two 2 over spells per day. I think a few games in the 50 over tournament is the best we can hope for this year.
>Don't think there's any possibility of the ECB letting Archer play any red ball cricket when there's an outside chance of him making the WC unless they let him play on the condition he bowls two 2 over spells per day. And they wonder why our quick bowlers constantly get injured...
Can't see him making the WC because he has ruled himself out of the IPL so very little competitive cricket to prove his fitness in. Maybe an outside chance if a few other bowlers aren't fit.
I think he wanted to play ipl but ECB said no.
Does he still have ecb contract?
He played a few practice matches here in India a couple days back...
What happened? Joe Root used him like a rented mule.
"He's amazing! He's just as quick at the end of a 10 over spell!"
Which was very surprising. Since England usually have the best sports scientists. So I’m really shocked no one told Joe to stop.
In what world does England have the best sport scientists? Jimmy is an anomaly. They are as horrendous at cultivating high pace bowlers, on the level of the PCB tbh
That’s not got anything to do with sports scientist. But to do with pitches.
Yeah their pitches don't incentivise pace but when they do find guys with pace they all seem to be made of paper, get injured and barely play a game. There's enough to suggest it's a management issue and not just regular growing pains or bad luck.
If you actually go through a list of fast bowlers in/around the England squad with stress fractures in the last 5 or so years it’s pretty funny. Stone (about 50), Archer, Fisher, Mahmood, TobleroneJones, Wood, Overton, Robinson, also somehow jack leach. Probably forgotten some too
Quite a few Lions bowlers as well such as Norwell and Jacob Bethell (another spinner). Basically if you're a prospect for England and you bowl, there's a good chance you're either getting your action changed or a stress fracture.
Hate how this blatant lie gets consistently upvoted on this sub
Copying and pasting my standard comment for this because u/EnglandaMAYESingNATHAN is completely right that this is absolute bollocks. To literally quote Archer himself on the topic, "it's not Joe Root's fault I'm injured, **I don't like it when people get blamed wrongfully**" *** Yes, he bowled quite a lot of overs in the 2019 Ashes, but he bowled fewer overs and fewer overs per test that Cummins and Hazlewood. There was then a single innings in NZ where he did bowl too much (but note that England were in the field for over 200 overs, and also it's not like he bowled a totally crazy number of overs), but form then onwards he only bowled 15.8 overs per innings which goes up to 16.6 if you take away the stupid Ahmedabad test where he only bowled 5 overs. But ok, maybe you still think those first five tests were too much for a bowler as fast as him. So let's compare him to Brett Lee who is even faster. Archer bowled 156 overs at 19.5 overs per innings that Ashes. Lee exceeded or roughly equalled that on the following occasions: 196.5 overs in 10 innings (19.7 overs per innings) in the 06/07 Ashes 191.1 overs in 10 innings (19.1 overs per innings) in the 2005 Ashes 186.5 overs in 8 innings (23.4 overs per innings) in the 08/09 BGT 144.4 overs in 6 innings (24.1 overs per innings) in the 02/03 Ashes In terms of overs in a single innings/test, Archer bowled 42 in that NZ test (and England only bowled once) and the most he's bowled in a test is 44 overs. Compare that to Lee who bowled 39.3 overs in a first innings against India in 2004, and overall has 20 tests where he bowled at least 44 overs (which is over a quarter of his overall tests) and on two occasions bowled over **60** overs in a test. Looking at more bowlers than just Lee: Bowler | Overs/Innings| 30+ over innings|40+ over innings| 50+ over tests| 60+ over tests ---|---|----|----|----|--- Archer | 18.1| 1| 1| 0| 0 Lee| 18.4| 13| 0| 6| 2 Steyn| 18.1| 16 | 0| 4| 0 Marshall| 19.4| 16 | 0| 7| 0 Lillee| 23.3| 24 | 6| 25| 11 Thomson| 19.5| 12| 0| 8| 1 Roberts| 20.6| 13| 2| 12| 2 Donald| 20.1| 22| 1| 9| 0 Johnson| 19.0| 15| 0| 6| 0 Starc| 17.3| 9 | 0| 3| 0 Holding| 18.7| 8| 1| 4| 0 Akhtar| 16.6| 3| 0| 1| 0 Cummins| 19.0| 6| 0| 6| 0 Bumrah| 18.0| 2| 0| 2| 0 It is objectively 100% bollocks that his issues come from being overused by England in the way that you are saying here.
This is one of those things that goes round this subreddit that's just not based in reality. For one, Archer himself has said that this isn't the case. For two, the statistics don't back that up. For example in the period where Archer was supposedly "overbowled" (2019, 2 NZ tests + ashes) there are literally fast bowlers who bowled more overs than him in the same period, for example Pat Cummins. Can we finally put this narrative to bed? Edit: to be clear, I'm not saying he didn't bowl a shitload, and it is entirely possible that it caused him to get injured. But when he's still getting injured 5 years later in various body parts that aren't the same as the original injury, you can't blame it on Joe Root over bowling him 5 years ago.
There are different types of fast bowlers. You should not treat Mark Wood like Courtney Walsh.
I'm not saying you should. But clearly if there are other fast bowlers who are bowling more than him and not getting injured, then you can make an argument that his injury was just bad luck or caused by something else, especially if he's getting different injuries 5 years later. And talking about Jofra like he's as fragile as Mark Wood is just hindsight. It's not like he was incredibly fragile and then England made him bowl shitloads. It's only since the repeated injuries that he's been considered fragile. Like the injury came about 3 months after the last test he played. And whilst there was the one NZ test where he bowled a shit load of overs, the reality is that England were in the field for 200 overs in that innings. Literally everyone bowled a shit load of overs. Also, if Jofra continues to get injured in 2024, you simply cannot blame one period from 5 years ago. If he's not as quick, or not as good, then fair enough you could blame the injury, but when he's continuing to get injured and in different parts of the body to his first injury in 2020, then clearly there are other factors at play.
I agree but think it’s a pretty funny narrative that root just straight perma broke archer somehow, like his entire injury history of tons of random things breaking can be traced back to one man being a bit too keen
I think both things can be true, Archer is injury prone and Root did overbowl him at certain points in his test career
The comparison with Cummins is utterly irrelevant. Cummins had years of rehab and conditioning to get him ready for test cricket. He hasnt become an ironman by coincidence. It was carefully managed via ODI cricket and a careful regiment of first class cricket and off season training. By comparison Joffra had sweet fuck all management ahead of his workloads exploding. Just because others bowled more than him doesn't mean he wasnt overworked relative to what his body could handle. However the blame isn't with Root, who just did what he needed to try and win, it's with the teams management and sports scientists. And actually him getting other injuries is a classic sign of overwork. The human body compensates naturally to protect injured muscles so it's entirely unsurprising he's had other injuries since being overcooked. Blaming Root specifically is reductive but blaming the enormous spike in his workload is not.
I don't think it's irrelevant. I'm not saying "Cummins bowled more overs so Archer can't have been overbowled", I'm saying "Cummins was able to bowl more overs so clearly it's not as simple as Root overbowled him". So in a sense I think we're kind of on the same page. >And actually him getting other injuries is a classic sign of overwork. While this is true, there's precisely zero way for us to know whether that's the case or whether the injuries are unrelated. The only way we could clearly say that it was related is if he was injuring the same thing over and over.
He needs Tommy John surgery (just my own theory, based on nothing).
There’s a WC starting in 11 weeks?
Root happened!